32

Thursday, 10.02.2011.

10:16

"Serbia not under pressure to join NATO"

Serbian Army chief Miloje Miletić says that Serbia is not under pressure to join NATO, the western military alliance.

Izvor: Beta

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Luke Buyenovich

pre 13 godina

"Not under pressure to join NATO"It may not
be overt pressure but its implied one.
Why join NATO?What's there for Serbia?
There is no necessity or wisdom in join
NATO in current configurations.NATO has
no future in any configuration without
Russia in it.So we wait and see what
Russia does.Make no mistake our future
is closely link with Russia.EU is not
military alliance therefore,we should be
willing to join with Kosovo as integral
part of Serbia.Some in the West believe
Serbia should not even exist as independent sovereign state no matter how small and militarily non threatening it
may be.Serbia's Government must face this unpleasant reality and navigate this treacherous path for betterment of Serbian Nation with clarity,vision
and determination.One should look at West success and failure in regard to two Serbian entities Montenegro and Republika Srpska.West have succeeded in detaching Montenegro from Serbia and marginalazing Serb ethnic majority with the help from
Milo Djukanovic stripping them of meaningful political power.That's precisely what was planned for Bosna i herzegovina but failed miserably due to the brilliant leadership of Republika Srpska.Our brothers in Russia are looked at through the same lens and West is cooking their goose.Fragmentation of Russian Federations is the Western goal.However that's on hold for now due to the Western financial melt down and open split in NATO alliance in regard to the expansion Eastward.Restart button is always above reset button in Western World control panel,so be prepared for changes which could, but not likely to happen.Why the West dislike Serbs and Russians so much?The answer may lie in Western description "Hard to crack-impossible to bend"

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PRO-SERBIA

pre 13 godina

That will be Serbian's greatest mistake if it joins NATO. There is no point for Serbia joining the western alliance since this organization is the one occupying Kosovo province.

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Amer

pre 13 godina

"2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999

(John, 12 February 2011 02:32) "

Sorry, I couldn't remember the abbreviation exactly - I seem to remember the quote as "JVA," but when I looked it up once, I thought I found it was actually "JNA." (The quote is from "The Mission" by Dana Priest, the WaPo journalist who broke the secret prisons story, BTW.)

I'm not sure how the provisions of the Rambouillet annex explain Milosevic's willingness to give up so readily - maybe he thought he could spin the non-stationing of US forces in Serbia as a victory?

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John

pre 13 godina

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

Your statement is highly flawed. Heres why.

1. The terms had been offered to Nato Before the bombing began
2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999
3. Since Nato Forces have entered, over 300,000 refugees have fled
4. Kosovo isnt independent

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.

(sj, 11 February 2011 12:47)

sigh... 1244, the same document that confirms serbia has no legal authority whatsover in kosovo?

The same document that says the govt. of kosovo Does?

Yay?

Kosovo is serbia is the rallying cry of the desperate. But The serbian army clearly and emphatically knows differently, doesnt it sj?

The only thing i could possibly find fault with the serbian generals comment is his use of "Kosovo and Metohija" ... a term that appears no where in un1244 that you hold so dearly to.

do enjoy.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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KU

pre 13 godina

"Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it."

No Zoran, it does not come down to that because that was never the problem. First there was another agreement, signed in the summer of the previous year that failed because there was no way to enforce it. Only some observers with no power to do anything that ended up negotiating releases between Albanians kidnapped by Serbs and Serbs kidnapped by Albanians. And then Racak and other nasty stuff happened to show that it failed.

So the next step of course is to have troops on the ground to enforce any agreements (KFOR). The clause on allowing NATO access to all of Serbia was not even taken into consideration by the Serbian team. It was not even opposed by them. The sensible answer to that part of the document would have been "we cannot accept this clause, it is too much". They were called the Rambouillet talks. As in any talks you make some maximal demands to remove them later. Asked later, the other side (US and European countries and Russia) said that clause would have been removed if the slightest opposition to it had been expressed. Serbian team did not do it. Instead they went back two weeks later with whole parts of the document blackened out, not just that problematic clause, and changes to the documents that just displayed plain arrogance. Even the Russian envoy (Ivanov?) was embarrassed, basically it was a loss of his time.

24 hours before the bombing started Holbrooke was in Belgrade with Milosevic still trying to avoid everything that came later. Milosevic had other plans, maybe imaginary Russian anti-aircraft, maybe NATO would break up, maybe destabilize neighboring countries with refugees.

It was an ultimatum yes, a signature was needed and troops on the ground (only in Kosovo) to enforce it. It was an ultimatum on the Albanian part as well and a hard one because it contained no mention about independence. Thaci literally lost his mind between the pressure (threats) not to sign it from KLA commanders (and Adem Demaci, doubt you know who he is) on the ground and pressure from Americans and Madeleine Albright to sign it, otherwise the Albanians would lose all western support and KLA and everybody else would be left at Milosevic's mercy. Some diplomats present there said he was even crying at times. Madeleine Albright got really mad at him because everything came close to a total failure. The funds-collecting KLA points around the west started receiving threatening calls by unknown people speaking in English threatening them the KLA would be wiped out if they did not sign. In the end the Albanians gave in and signed a document with no mention about independence. They had no choice. All this to get Serbia to sign it. Milosevic did not sign. He did not even ask to remove the clause about troops over all Serbia. It took 78 days and many useless killings to sign the same thing.

Do you really think Americans wanted to keep tanks and military troops close to, say, Belgrade? Invade all of Serbia, a European country and with a population hostile to them? What for, what for? For the Zastava factories? For the tennis players? For the football fans? What is so precious in Serbia worth invading it? Very important geostrategic positions that if you sit in the middle of Novi Pazar you can rule the world? Huge amounts of oil? Wake up, it is 2011 :).

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in.
(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)
--
There were no refugees until after NATO started bombing so what was NATO's goal? Create the refugees and then get them back in? Where has your logic gone?

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.
(KU, 11 February 2011 17:46)
--
Serbia didn't go into Kosovo as Kosovo is a part of Serbia. Serbian forces were dealing with ethnic Albanians fighting Al Qaeda style, you know - terrorists. They were killing civilians, police and even their own who were loyal to Serbia.

Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it. Once they realised we could sit it out as NATO was evermore divided and losing international support it had to drop the two conditions Milosevic demanded.

If those two conditions weren't there to begin with then a peace deal could have been made without the aggression, murder and destruction caused by NATO.

As for BiH, do some research on the Lisbon agreement. Again war could have been avoided if it wasn't for Western interference. In fact, had they not reneged, the Bosnian Muslims would have ended up with more territory and avoided the whole war but they were promised all of BiH by you know who.

Look, you only have to look all around the world to know who are the aggressors. I don't see Russia or China in other sovereign countries causing death and destruction. It's obvious who is though.

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Ataman, 11 February 2011 19:00)

oh good lord...where has logic gone? make up some goals in your head and then criticize them in an article of July 5 1999, not even one month after the war had ended. NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in. It happened. Macleans is asking about peaceful coexistence, multi-ethnic society while the coal of the burned houses is still warm? Is he for real?

NATO is not a policy maker, it is a tool, an army, a military organization. As an army it does not create goals, it follows orders, the only goals it has are the orders it gets: win the objectives of a war when the policymakers who command it deem it useful to start a war, be a muscle during peacetime (KFOR) to support policies made by others. It would be like asking general Miletic why don't you fix inflation in Serbia.

Those other arguments of Kosovo creating precedents and of spending tax-payer's money and of conflicts between Christians and Muslims have been used and reused and rewashed so much now that they are boring. Because they are not true, just misleading. Oh yes, there is a new one I had never heard of, on July 5 1999 he predicts war between NATO and KLA. Wrong prediction, it never happened. KLA was disarmed as it was asked to. Finally, the author says he knows what Milosevic would have done. How in the world does he know? Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

It really became the OPEN objective of Bush administration.
However, don't forget the "secret" Ramboulliet accords.

As under

http://www.peace.ca/whowonwar.htm

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Zoran, 11 February 2011 11:53)

well Zoran, I would hardly call total destruction of the enemy a victory. This is what you are implying. It was good for Serbia that NATO standards are different from yours. Your standards seem more similar to those of Russia in Chechnya.

In retrospect, even though what happened is tragic because innocent people were killed, at least it showed the Serbs in Belgrade and Serbia proper who made it out alive what it means to have bombs flying over your head. An experience in common with Sarajevo residents who made it out alive. To the luck of Belgraders it only lasted 78 days, not 3 years.

One should also consider the technological disparity between one side and the other and how important that is for being able to claim moral superiority during a war. NATO could afford to fight at minimal risk, from the air, NATO could afford high precision missiles so as to minimize loss of lives in the civilian population. In short, NATO could afford much more precise surgical operations with obvious benefits on public opinion. Serbia did not have high precision bombs, nor planes worth mentioning. So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.

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Amer

pre 13 godina

"and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

(Jovan, 11 February 2011 15:19) "

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The entire Kosovo battle is full of controversy. Saying that it was a "Serbian victory" is not really off because Turks were routed and churches all over Europe rang bells in celebration.

If it was a victory it was than certainly a "Pyrrhic victory" - but less because of Turks, more because in the autumn of 1389 Holy Roman Emperor of Luxembourg dynasty Sigismund invaded Serbia. The widow of Lazar did judge that threat to be more serious than the Turkish - so she (quite logically) allied herself with the enemy who was just beaten in order to fight of an enemy which was presumed to be more mighty.

That sealed the fate more, than the Kosovo battle.

More about Sigismund here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

We can say, Sigismund was the tragedy of Croats (see Bloody Sabor of Križevci), tragedy of Czechs (see Hussite Wars), tragedy of Poles, tragedy of Serbs, tragedy of Bosnians (Tvrtko may have been murdered in 1391 on Sigismund's order).

What is not in English Wiki is in Serbian:

"После Косовског боја Жигмунд је напао кнежевину Србију, али су га њени вазални односи са Отоманском империјом спречили у освајању њених области"

His acts against menacing Turks were pretty much unsuccessful. So it was less Sultans, more the (un)Holy Roman Emperor who sealed the fate of Balkans and made a defeat out of victory.

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Jovan

pre 13 godina

once again "truth chicago" is entertaining us with amusing comments!

so, NATO flew 38.000 missions, right?

and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

and you think NATO "won"?

let me ask you, "truth chicago", how old are you, actually?

you really think a victorious alliance would have had to sign an agreement with a defeated country?

the socalled "kumanovo agreemtent", is certainly something you´ve never heard of...right? =)


those NATO-generals were quite happy not to be forced to send ground-troops, I guess.

and what´s best, NATO will leave southern Serbia some day. and that will be a great day not only for the Serbs, but for all of us.

just a question of time.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(AdamNYC, 11 February 2011 10:54)
The Serbian armed forces are not prison guards we leave that to the likes of Albanian allies.
Here is what he said "…..KFOR is still the top security authority in Kosovo and Metohija as far as we're concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.
Where are the Albanian armed forces of Kosovo? What not enough donkeys available?

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34)
--
Where did you get that from? Jamie Shea or CNN?

Lets put it this way. Prior to NATO's illegal aggression on Serbia "The Great Western Powers" had an ultimatum called the Rambouillet Agreement, which Serbia flatly refused only because of two clauses:

1. It would allow NATO to deploy throughout the whole territory of what was then Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).

2. After 3 years it would allow a referendum to take place in KiM on the issue of independence, which we all know would have resulted in independence.

Now after 78 days of bombing and attempting to force Milosevic to accept that ultimatum it was NATO, yes the "Great Western Powers" that dropped those two very unacceptable clauses, that led to UNSCR1244 and the cessation of bombing.

You see, the battle continues and neither Serbia nor NATO won. In the end there was no victory for either side. The "Great Western Powers" became responsible for feeding 2 million mouths and were incompetent in controlling crime so they just let it happen. They were responsible for the ethnic cleaning of 200,000 Serbians. It seems they are finally regretting their actions and it looks like we've past the turning point. NATO will leave a lot easier than what we went through with the NAZIs and Ottomans.

As for NATO's great ground forces, yes, I've seen them in action. A bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan are kicking their backside. I suppose that's why they never deployed in the 78 day bombing campaign. They couldn't stand the embarrassment of defeated.

Cheers my friend!

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

Of Course not.

Serbia is Under Pressure NOT to join Nato... Russia will not allow it.

serbia may have purchased russian "friendship" selling off dirt chip its energy future and acting as russias glorified gas station to western markets.

But that payment does not cover serbia making any choices that run contrary to russian interests.


and lol at the serb army general flatly admitting it has no jurisdiction in kosovo, isnt it utterley fascinating that serb apologists dont get upset at anything unless someone gives them a propagandist cue card.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours.
(MikeC, 10 February 2011 17:22)

So Sad, So Sad. The only thing that is certain is that serbia has in fact NO legal authority of any kind whatsoever.

That is Your position so long as you yourselves desperately cling to Un1244 still being in effect.

Bolstered by the fact that serbia ran away from making any further legal to kosovo.

Serbia has lost nothing,can lose nothing. Has nothing to offer. All it has is the delusion that where force and violence failed, they can somehow negotiate a theft.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34
Yep I’m extremely funny. How did NATO impose its will on Serbia because last time I looked a defeat meant that NATO would have taken over Serbia. Perhaps you’re from a parallel universe. According to all the propaganda there was no trade agreement, no SAA, no visa free travel until Kosovo is recognized – we got all of that and more to come and Kosovo has not been recognized as independent.
Serbia did not win but neither did NATO. For a small nation of only 8 million they didn’t do too badly as it had NATO making consessions, but as you’re an American who sleeps with the flag wrapped around himself every night you and fed on BS via fox et al you would not have been told of these facts.
It’s always easy to fight a small nation that was under sanctions for years – the US is good at that just look at Iraq. NATO first attacked Serb forces in Kosovo with no affect. So they started bombing buildings – immovable objects in Serbia proper which as I said before could be done with an 17 century artillery piece; all that BS about superior weapons and that’s all they could do. Perhaps I should remind you that the vast amount of depleted uranium was used in Kosovo and never cleaned up, which means your people are breathing this stuff up every day.
NATO would never have used its land forces because of fear of heavy losses. Yes, the like of Albright were all gung hoe in using them, but Bill could see that was not a good idea – don’t you people in the US read anything?
The real PR catch cry was “NATO victory over Serbia which was forced to sign a document of surrender” it was only after they made concessions "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back”.
Ah you have mentioned my favoutrite subject the Chinese. The bombing of the Chinese embassy was the GREATEST military mistake in 100 years – this idiotic act cost the US a staggering amount.
As soon as this happened silly Bill Clinton tried to get the Chinese President on the phone to apologize – he could not contact him for 3 days. Clinton was BEGGING the Chinese; begging. Without going into too much details it would have been cheaper if the new embassy built in Belgrade was made of 24 carot gold.
I suggest that you Americans start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like feeding the 90 million living in poverty (40 million live off food stamps alone) and paying off your debts and trying rebuilding the ghost towns on the great lakes such as Detroit.

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

@LALO

youre a very funny guy.

Nation of 8 million stood up to NATO? Really? You're absolutely dillusional if you believe this war was somehow beneficial to Serbia. Getting bombed for 78 days straight is not a victory. You didnt "stand up" to NATO, rather NATO imposed their will on Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail NATO surrendering to Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail the securing of Kosovar borders with the Serbian army. Last I checked that never happened.

First, NATO only fought Serbia with aircraft alone and not with tanks, infantry, etc etc. To say NATO fought with its full force is rediculous. Serbia was defeated in 78 days with a decaffinated military of NATO. I wouldn't quite be jumping up and down cheering as if youre in the Gaza Strip.

NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions! Thats an incredible amount of sorties and an incredible amount of bombs falling on the Serb's heads, buildings, munitions factories, barracks, Chinese relay station for Yugoslav army radio signals(embassy) etc. The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That goal was achieved. Im still missing where this alleged "serbian victory" is?

Anyway, do you want to know how this "serbian victory" ended?

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".

I thought Serbians fight to the end? I thought they will not be defeated? what happened to the nation of 8 million resisting the "aggressors"? I guess folks realized its a losing battle:) If winning isnt everything then why do people keep scores?

Start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like building up your own country and taking care of your own people.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(Agim Kelmendi, 10 February 2011 12:58)


No you’re not a serb politician or military brass but you seem to me to be just a pizza delivery lad trying to look like a field marshal, but so far everyone of your predictions have come to nothing. Last time I looked the international force was there to control Kosovo not the rest of Serbia, but then you people are very good at making a prison look like paradise.

Look boys at how the US is loosing it grip in the middle east – very soon Egypt GONE. I would be very worried.


(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The mighty west could not dent the Serb army in Kosovo so they went to bomb buildings – gee NATO with all its superior equipment and all they did was target stationary objects; why even 17 century canons could have done that job.

Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in New York; that was until William Cohen saw the amount of military equipment leaving Kosovo not even scratched – he the terminated Wesley NATO general ship 3 months short as punishment. What was that again about that superior weans?????

If they have won resoundly why is Kosovo still a protectorate after 12 years of “freedom”? But dazzle men with your Albanians victories over the Serbs – opps there are none. Another Albanians wrapping himself in a foreign flag or is it just another American windbag talking thorough his rear end.

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pss

pre 13 godina

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.
(American Eagle, 10 February 2011 18:36)
It always amazes me when I read a comment that is nothing but a message filled with hatred and irrational comments and then ends condemning others with being filled with hate.

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JohnBoy (Chicago)

pre 13 godina

The tide of history is changing again today - america's boy in Egypt is being thrown out. The albos are nothing without america and the american government is slowly facing a re-shuffling like Egypt's. If the unemployment level does not fall before November 2012, america's old ways (and allies) will be thrown out as well. In Egypt, it was translated as Independence Square. In america, it is called The Mall.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)
--
We always end up turning a loss into a win my friend. We kicked the Ottomans out, we kicked the NAZIs out and it looks like NATO will kick itself out.

NATO (well lets say the "Great Western Powers") agreed to UNSCR1244 before we allowed KFOR to deploy. Really, who better to temporarily look after our KiM Albanians? They now even admit to allowing serious crime and covering it up for the sake of stability but it looks like that little plan backfired, as it always does. Once upon a time the "Great Western Powers" supported Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden just as they do Hashim Thaci but we all know how quickly things can change, right?

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American Eagle

pre 13 godina

The General said that the "Great Western Powers" accepted Serbia's military neutrality. Sounds like the West is agreeing to the Serbian viewpoint, not the other way around. And Kosovo can never claim to have defeated Serbia in the war. Your leaders, Thaci and Co. were hiding in Albania harvesting organs while NATO did all the dirty work. It is sickening to see the videos of the KLA fighters walking in the streets after the Serbian troops left claiming responsibility for "defeating" the Serbian Army. Your "liberation day" in the villages around here make me sick too. The KLA was an ineffective force and could do nothing but shoot at police and run back into Albania to hide from the Serbian Army. NATO was duped into taking side with Clinton's statements that 100,000 men were missing from Kosovo supplied by the KLA's misinformation department.

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.

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Lalo

pre 13 godina

I think the war against NATO was a victory. A small nation of 8 million faught the worlds biggest and strongest army and the end resault there was no clear winner. Serbia cleaned KLA forces from Kosovo in 2 weeks. NATO 10years on are still fighting the Telaban. Serbia shot down over 77 nato planes and no one is talking about it? Its funny right after the war Canada said it needs 3 billion to fix there air force. What about the apachee helicopters? didn;t even leave the ground in tirana why is that? Serbia proved that we could hit back hard but whats the point? for many more years of economical isolation. NATO inharited albainian gangsters + kosovo problem. Over 400 serbian police officers died keeping peace in kosovo before the real fight started. Would any western country accept this on there soil? And yes this was a victory worlds biggest power only destroyed 15 tanks at the cost of many billion of dollars. And no its not 1389 all over in 1389 the entire serbian army was killed this time the serbian army was not even brused.Nato no thanks we dont join organizations which kill more children then solders! LIVE TODAY FIGHT TOMORROW ITS NOT OVER!

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MikeC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours. The albanians know it and the West knows it. If Kosovo indeed is independent we wouln't have droves of insecure albs saying it is. Why justify the obvious?

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

For starters, Im humbled that Mr. General boy addresses Kosova's friends as the "Great Western Powers", good boy. Im glad he knows how to respect authority.

Second, Miletić also noted that Serbia's military had "exceptionally good cooperation" with the NATO-led forces in the province".

After you get a good batine like this generals army recieved, one will learn to "cooperate".

I read a comment by a reader in another article who was boasting about how NATO only destroyed 15 tanks. Kosova was a complete loss for Serbia in every way people! Whether 15 tanks or 5000 tanks were destroyed is irrelevant. The goal was to kick the Serb "offensive" force out of Kosova which they succeeded in doing so. Again, Im confused when I witness a Serb take a military loss and miraculously turn it around into a victory by boasting of "only 15 tanks" that were destroyed while ignoring the fact that their army that was supposed to "defend" Kosova, but instead left on NATOs orders? Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?

Prince Lazar would be rolling over in his grave right now if he knew about Serbia losing Kosova.

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Agim Kelmendi

pre 13 godina

"conditions have not been met" for a reduction in the number of international troops there.

and here I tought that VS will fill the void!

If I was a Serb politician or military brass , I will never make any comment regarding Kosova, since is not part of Serbia. You guys are making yourselfvs look like fools.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34)
--
Where did you get that from? Jamie Shea or CNN?

Lets put it this way. Prior to NATO's illegal aggression on Serbia "The Great Western Powers" had an ultimatum called the Rambouillet Agreement, which Serbia flatly refused only because of two clauses:

1. It would allow NATO to deploy throughout the whole territory of what was then Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).

2. After 3 years it would allow a referendum to take place in KiM on the issue of independence, which we all know would have resulted in independence.

Now after 78 days of bombing and attempting to force Milosevic to accept that ultimatum it was NATO, yes the "Great Western Powers" that dropped those two very unacceptable clauses, that led to UNSCR1244 and the cessation of bombing.

You see, the battle continues and neither Serbia nor NATO won. In the end there was no victory for either side. The "Great Western Powers" became responsible for feeding 2 million mouths and were incompetent in controlling crime so they just let it happen. They were responsible for the ethnic cleaning of 200,000 Serbians. It seems they are finally regretting their actions and it looks like we've past the turning point. NATO will leave a lot easier than what we went through with the NAZIs and Ottomans.

As for NATO's great ground forces, yes, I've seen them in action. A bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan are kicking their backside. I suppose that's why they never deployed in the 78 day bombing campaign. They couldn't stand the embarrassment of defeated.

Cheers my friend!

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Lalo

pre 13 godina

I think the war against NATO was a victory. A small nation of 8 million faught the worlds biggest and strongest army and the end resault there was no clear winner. Serbia cleaned KLA forces from Kosovo in 2 weeks. NATO 10years on are still fighting the Telaban. Serbia shot down over 77 nato planes and no one is talking about it? Its funny right after the war Canada said it needs 3 billion to fix there air force. What about the apachee helicopters? didn;t even leave the ground in tirana why is that? Serbia proved that we could hit back hard but whats the point? for many more years of economical isolation. NATO inharited albainian gangsters + kosovo problem. Over 400 serbian police officers died keeping peace in kosovo before the real fight started. Would any western country accept this on there soil? And yes this was a victory worlds biggest power only destroyed 15 tanks at the cost of many billion of dollars. And no its not 1389 all over in 1389 the entire serbian army was killed this time the serbian army was not even brused.Nato no thanks we dont join organizations which kill more children then solders! LIVE TODAY FIGHT TOMORROW ITS NOT OVER!

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sj

pre 13 godina

(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34
Yep I’m extremely funny. How did NATO impose its will on Serbia because last time I looked a defeat meant that NATO would have taken over Serbia. Perhaps you’re from a parallel universe. According to all the propaganda there was no trade agreement, no SAA, no visa free travel until Kosovo is recognized – we got all of that and more to come and Kosovo has not been recognized as independent.
Serbia did not win but neither did NATO. For a small nation of only 8 million they didn’t do too badly as it had NATO making consessions, but as you’re an American who sleeps with the flag wrapped around himself every night you and fed on BS via fox et al you would not have been told of these facts.
It’s always easy to fight a small nation that was under sanctions for years – the US is good at that just look at Iraq. NATO first attacked Serb forces in Kosovo with no affect. So they started bombing buildings – immovable objects in Serbia proper which as I said before could be done with an 17 century artillery piece; all that BS about superior weapons and that’s all they could do. Perhaps I should remind you that the vast amount of depleted uranium was used in Kosovo and never cleaned up, which means your people are breathing this stuff up every day.
NATO would never have used its land forces because of fear of heavy losses. Yes, the like of Albright were all gung hoe in using them, but Bill could see that was not a good idea – don’t you people in the US read anything?
The real PR catch cry was “NATO victory over Serbia which was forced to sign a document of surrender” it was only after they made concessions "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back”.
Ah you have mentioned my favoutrite subject the Chinese. The bombing of the Chinese embassy was the GREATEST military mistake in 100 years – this idiotic act cost the US a staggering amount.
As soon as this happened silly Bill Clinton tried to get the Chinese President on the phone to apologize – he could not contact him for 3 days. Clinton was BEGGING the Chinese; begging. Without going into too much details it would have been cheaper if the new embassy built in Belgrade was made of 24 carot gold.
I suggest that you Americans start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like feeding the 90 million living in poverty (40 million live off food stamps alone) and paying off your debts and trying rebuilding the ghost towns on the great lakes such as Detroit.

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Jovan

pre 13 godina

once again "truth chicago" is entertaining us with amusing comments!

so, NATO flew 38.000 missions, right?

and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

and you think NATO "won"?

let me ask you, "truth chicago", how old are you, actually?

you really think a victorious alliance would have had to sign an agreement with a defeated country?

the socalled "kumanovo agreemtent", is certainly something you´ve never heard of...right? =)


those NATO-generals were quite happy not to be forced to send ground-troops, I guess.

and what´s best, NATO will leave southern Serbia some day. and that will be a great day not only for the Serbs, but for all of us.

just a question of time.

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MikeC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours. The albanians know it and the West knows it. If Kosovo indeed is independent we wouln't have droves of insecure albs saying it is. Why justify the obvious?

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)
--
We always end up turning a loss into a win my friend. We kicked the Ottomans out, we kicked the NAZIs out and it looks like NATO will kick itself out.

NATO (well lets say the "Great Western Powers") agreed to UNSCR1244 before we allowed KFOR to deploy. Really, who better to temporarily look after our KiM Albanians? They now even admit to allowing serious crime and covering it up for the sake of stability but it looks like that little plan backfired, as it always does. Once upon a time the "Great Western Powers" supported Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden just as they do Hashim Thaci but we all know how quickly things can change, right?

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

For starters, Im humbled that Mr. General boy addresses Kosova's friends as the "Great Western Powers", good boy. Im glad he knows how to respect authority.

Second, Miletić also noted that Serbia's military had "exceptionally good cooperation" with the NATO-led forces in the province".

After you get a good batine like this generals army recieved, one will learn to "cooperate".

I read a comment by a reader in another article who was boasting about how NATO only destroyed 15 tanks. Kosova was a complete loss for Serbia in every way people! Whether 15 tanks or 5000 tanks were destroyed is irrelevant. The goal was to kick the Serb "offensive" force out of Kosova which they succeeded in doing so. Again, Im confused when I witness a Serb take a military loss and miraculously turn it around into a victory by boasting of "only 15 tanks" that were destroyed while ignoring the fact that their army that was supposed to "defend" Kosova, but instead left on NATOs orders? Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?

Prince Lazar would be rolling over in his grave right now if he knew about Serbia losing Kosova.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.
(KU, 11 February 2011 17:46)
--
Serbia didn't go into Kosovo as Kosovo is a part of Serbia. Serbian forces were dealing with ethnic Albanians fighting Al Qaeda style, you know - terrorists. They were killing civilians, police and even their own who were loyal to Serbia.

Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it. Once they realised we could sit it out as NATO was evermore divided and losing international support it had to drop the two conditions Milosevic demanded.

If those two conditions weren't there to begin with then a peace deal could have been made without the aggression, murder and destruction caused by NATO.

As for BiH, do some research on the Lisbon agreement. Again war could have been avoided if it wasn't for Western interference. In fact, had they not reneged, the Bosnian Muslims would have ended up with more territory and avoided the whole war but they were promised all of BiH by you know who.

Look, you only have to look all around the world to know who are the aggressors. I don't see Russia or China in other sovereign countries causing death and destruction. It's obvious who is though.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in.
(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)
--
There were no refugees until after NATO started bombing so what was NATO's goal? Create the refugees and then get them back in? Where has your logic gone?

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Agim Kelmendi

pre 13 godina

"conditions have not been met" for a reduction in the number of international troops there.

and here I tought that VS will fill the void!

If I was a Serb politician or military brass , I will never make any comment regarding Kosova, since is not part of Serbia. You guys are making yourselfvs look like fools.

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

@LALO

youre a very funny guy.

Nation of 8 million stood up to NATO? Really? You're absolutely dillusional if you believe this war was somehow beneficial to Serbia. Getting bombed for 78 days straight is not a victory. You didnt "stand up" to NATO, rather NATO imposed their will on Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail NATO surrendering to Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail the securing of Kosovar borders with the Serbian army. Last I checked that never happened.

First, NATO only fought Serbia with aircraft alone and not with tanks, infantry, etc etc. To say NATO fought with its full force is rediculous. Serbia was defeated in 78 days with a decaffinated military of NATO. I wouldn't quite be jumping up and down cheering as if youre in the Gaza Strip.

NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions! Thats an incredible amount of sorties and an incredible amount of bombs falling on the Serb's heads, buildings, munitions factories, barracks, Chinese relay station for Yugoslav army radio signals(embassy) etc. The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That goal was achieved. Im still missing where this alleged "serbian victory" is?

Anyway, do you want to know how this "serbian victory" ended?

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".

I thought Serbians fight to the end? I thought they will not be defeated? what happened to the nation of 8 million resisting the "aggressors"? I guess folks realized its a losing battle:) If winning isnt everything then why do people keep scores?

Start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like building up your own country and taking care of your own people.

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American Eagle

pre 13 godina

The General said that the "Great Western Powers" accepted Serbia's military neutrality. Sounds like the West is agreeing to the Serbian viewpoint, not the other way around. And Kosovo can never claim to have defeated Serbia in the war. Your leaders, Thaci and Co. were hiding in Albania harvesting organs while NATO did all the dirty work. It is sickening to see the videos of the KLA fighters walking in the streets after the Serbian troops left claiming responsibility for "defeating" the Serbian Army. Your "liberation day" in the villages around here make me sick too. The KLA was an ineffective force and could do nothing but shoot at police and run back into Albania to hide from the Serbian Army. NATO was duped into taking side with Clinton's statements that 100,000 men were missing from Kosovo supplied by the KLA's misinformation department.

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(Agim Kelmendi, 10 February 2011 12:58)


No you’re not a serb politician or military brass but you seem to me to be just a pizza delivery lad trying to look like a field marshal, but so far everyone of your predictions have come to nothing. Last time I looked the international force was there to control Kosovo not the rest of Serbia, but then you people are very good at making a prison look like paradise.

Look boys at how the US is loosing it grip in the middle east – very soon Egypt GONE. I would be very worried.


(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The mighty west could not dent the Serb army in Kosovo so they went to bomb buildings – gee NATO with all its superior equipment and all they did was target stationary objects; why even 17 century canons could have done that job.

Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in New York; that was until William Cohen saw the amount of military equipment leaving Kosovo not even scratched – he the terminated Wesley NATO general ship 3 months short as punishment. What was that again about that superior weans?????

If they have won resoundly why is Kosovo still a protectorate after 12 years of “freedom”? But dazzle men with your Albanians victories over the Serbs – opps there are none. Another Albanians wrapping himself in a foreign flag or is it just another American windbag talking thorough his rear end.

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Amer

pre 13 godina

"and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

(Jovan, 11 February 2011 15:19) "

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.

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JohnBoy (Chicago)

pre 13 godina

The tide of history is changing again today - america's boy in Egypt is being thrown out. The albos are nothing without america and the american government is slowly facing a re-shuffling like Egypt's. If the unemployment level does not fall before November 2012, america's old ways (and allies) will be thrown out as well. In Egypt, it was translated as Independence Square. In america, it is called The Mall.

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Zoran, 11 February 2011 11:53)

well Zoran, I would hardly call total destruction of the enemy a victory. This is what you are implying. It was good for Serbia that NATO standards are different from yours. Your standards seem more similar to those of Russia in Chechnya.

In retrospect, even though what happened is tragic because innocent people were killed, at least it showed the Serbs in Belgrade and Serbia proper who made it out alive what it means to have bombs flying over your head. An experience in common with Sarajevo residents who made it out alive. To the luck of Belgraders it only lasted 78 days, not 3 years.

One should also consider the technological disparity between one side and the other and how important that is for being able to claim moral superiority during a war. NATO could afford to fight at minimal risk, from the air, NATO could afford high precision missiles so as to minimize loss of lives in the civilian population. In short, NATO could afford much more precise surgical operations with obvious benefits on public opinion. Serbia did not have high precision bombs, nor planes worth mentioning. So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(AdamNYC, 11 February 2011 10:54)
The Serbian armed forces are not prison guards we leave that to the likes of Albanian allies.
Here is what he said "…..KFOR is still the top security authority in Kosovo and Metohija as far as we're concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.
Where are the Albanian armed forces of Kosovo? What not enough donkeys available?

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

Of Course not.

Serbia is Under Pressure NOT to join Nato... Russia will not allow it.

serbia may have purchased russian "friendship" selling off dirt chip its energy future and acting as russias glorified gas station to western markets.

But that payment does not cover serbia making any choices that run contrary to russian interests.


and lol at the serb army general flatly admitting it has no jurisdiction in kosovo, isnt it utterley fascinating that serb apologists dont get upset at anything unless someone gives them a propagandist cue card.

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PRO-SERBIA

pre 13 godina

That will be Serbian's greatest mistake if it joins NATO. There is no point for Serbia joining the western alliance since this organization is the one occupying Kosovo province.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours.
(MikeC, 10 February 2011 17:22)

So Sad, So Sad. The only thing that is certain is that serbia has in fact NO legal authority of any kind whatsoever.

That is Your position so long as you yourselves desperately cling to Un1244 still being in effect.

Bolstered by the fact that serbia ran away from making any further legal to kosovo.

Serbia has lost nothing,can lose nothing. Has nothing to offer. All it has is the delusion that where force and violence failed, they can somehow negotiate a theft.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The entire Kosovo battle is full of controversy. Saying that it was a "Serbian victory" is not really off because Turks were routed and churches all over Europe rang bells in celebration.

If it was a victory it was than certainly a "Pyrrhic victory" - but less because of Turks, more because in the autumn of 1389 Holy Roman Emperor of Luxembourg dynasty Sigismund invaded Serbia. The widow of Lazar did judge that threat to be more serious than the Turkish - so she (quite logically) allied herself with the enemy who was just beaten in order to fight of an enemy which was presumed to be more mighty.

That sealed the fate more, than the Kosovo battle.

More about Sigismund here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

We can say, Sigismund was the tragedy of Croats (see Bloody Sabor of Križevci), tragedy of Czechs (see Hussite Wars), tragedy of Poles, tragedy of Serbs, tragedy of Bosnians (Tvrtko may have been murdered in 1391 on Sigismund's order).

What is not in English Wiki is in Serbian:

"После Косовског боја Жигмунд је напао кнежевину Србију, али су га њени вазални односи са Отоманском империјом спречили у освајању њених области"

His acts against menacing Turks were pretty much unsuccessful. So it was less Sultans, more the (un)Holy Roman Emperor who sealed the fate of Balkans and made a defeat out of victory.

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pss

pre 13 godina

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.
(American Eagle, 10 February 2011 18:36)
It always amazes me when I read a comment that is nothing but a message filled with hatred and irrational comments and then ends condemning others with being filled with hate.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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John

pre 13 godina

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

Your statement is highly flawed. Heres why.

1. The terms had been offered to Nato Before the bombing began
2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999
3. Since Nato Forces have entered, over 300,000 refugees have fled
4. Kosovo isnt independent

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

It really became the OPEN objective of Bush administration.
However, don't forget the "secret" Ramboulliet accords.

As under

http://www.peace.ca/whowonwar.htm

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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KU

pre 13 godina

"Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it."

No Zoran, it does not come down to that because that was never the problem. First there was another agreement, signed in the summer of the previous year that failed because there was no way to enforce it. Only some observers with no power to do anything that ended up negotiating releases between Albanians kidnapped by Serbs and Serbs kidnapped by Albanians. And then Racak and other nasty stuff happened to show that it failed.

So the next step of course is to have troops on the ground to enforce any agreements (KFOR). The clause on allowing NATO access to all of Serbia was not even taken into consideration by the Serbian team. It was not even opposed by them. The sensible answer to that part of the document would have been "we cannot accept this clause, it is too much". They were called the Rambouillet talks. As in any talks you make some maximal demands to remove them later. Asked later, the other side (US and European countries and Russia) said that clause would have been removed if the slightest opposition to it had been expressed. Serbian team did not do it. Instead they went back two weeks later with whole parts of the document blackened out, not just that problematic clause, and changes to the documents that just displayed plain arrogance. Even the Russian envoy (Ivanov?) was embarrassed, basically it was a loss of his time.

24 hours before the bombing started Holbrooke was in Belgrade with Milosevic still trying to avoid everything that came later. Milosevic had other plans, maybe imaginary Russian anti-aircraft, maybe NATO would break up, maybe destabilize neighboring countries with refugees.

It was an ultimatum yes, a signature was needed and troops on the ground (only in Kosovo) to enforce it. It was an ultimatum on the Albanian part as well and a hard one because it contained no mention about independence. Thaci literally lost his mind between the pressure (threats) not to sign it from KLA commanders (and Adem Demaci, doubt you know who he is) on the ground and pressure from Americans and Madeleine Albright to sign it, otherwise the Albanians would lose all western support and KLA and everybody else would be left at Milosevic's mercy. Some diplomats present there said he was even crying at times. Madeleine Albright got really mad at him because everything came close to a total failure. The funds-collecting KLA points around the west started receiving threatening calls by unknown people speaking in English threatening them the KLA would be wiped out if they did not sign. In the end the Albanians gave in and signed a document with no mention about independence. They had no choice. All this to get Serbia to sign it. Milosevic did not sign. He did not even ask to remove the clause about troops over all Serbia. It took 78 days and many useless killings to sign the same thing.

Do you really think Americans wanted to keep tanks and military troops close to, say, Belgrade? Invade all of Serbia, a European country and with a population hostile to them? What for, what for? For the Zastava factories? For the tennis players? For the football fans? What is so precious in Serbia worth invading it? Very important geostrategic positions that if you sit in the middle of Novi Pazar you can rule the world? Huge amounts of oil? Wake up, it is 2011 :).

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.

(sj, 11 February 2011 12:47)

sigh... 1244, the same document that confirms serbia has no legal authority whatsover in kosovo?

The same document that says the govt. of kosovo Does?

Yay?

Kosovo is serbia is the rallying cry of the desperate. But The serbian army clearly and emphatically knows differently, doesnt it sj?

The only thing i could possibly find fault with the serbian generals comment is his use of "Kosovo and Metohija" ... a term that appears no where in un1244 that you hold so dearly to.

do enjoy.

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Ataman, 11 February 2011 19:00)

oh good lord...where has logic gone? make up some goals in your head and then criticize them in an article of July 5 1999, not even one month after the war had ended. NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in. It happened. Macleans is asking about peaceful coexistence, multi-ethnic society while the coal of the burned houses is still warm? Is he for real?

NATO is not a policy maker, it is a tool, an army, a military organization. As an army it does not create goals, it follows orders, the only goals it has are the orders it gets: win the objectives of a war when the policymakers who command it deem it useful to start a war, be a muscle during peacetime (KFOR) to support policies made by others. It would be like asking general Miletic why don't you fix inflation in Serbia.

Those other arguments of Kosovo creating precedents and of spending tax-payer's money and of conflicts between Christians and Muslims have been used and reused and rewashed so much now that they are boring. Because they are not true, just misleading. Oh yes, there is a new one I had never heard of, on July 5 1999 he predicts war between NATO and KLA. Wrong prediction, it never happened. KLA was disarmed as it was asked to. Finally, the author says he knows what Milosevic would have done. How in the world does he know? Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

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Amer

pre 13 godina

"2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999

(John, 12 February 2011 02:32) "

Sorry, I couldn't remember the abbreviation exactly - I seem to remember the quote as "JVA," but when I looked it up once, I thought I found it was actually "JNA." (The quote is from "The Mission" by Dana Priest, the WaPo journalist who broke the secret prisons story, BTW.)

I'm not sure how the provisions of the Rambouillet annex explain Milosevic's willingness to give up so readily - maybe he thought he could spin the non-stationing of US forces in Serbia as a victory?

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Luke Buyenovich

pre 13 godina

"Not under pressure to join NATO"It may not
be overt pressure but its implied one.
Why join NATO?What's there for Serbia?
There is no necessity or wisdom in join
NATO in current configurations.NATO has
no future in any configuration without
Russia in it.So we wait and see what
Russia does.Make no mistake our future
is closely link with Russia.EU is not
military alliance therefore,we should be
willing to join with Kosovo as integral
part of Serbia.Some in the West believe
Serbia should not even exist as independent sovereign state no matter how small and militarily non threatening it
may be.Serbia's Government must face this unpleasant reality and navigate this treacherous path for betterment of Serbian Nation with clarity,vision
and determination.One should look at West success and failure in regard to two Serbian entities Montenegro and Republika Srpska.West have succeeded in detaching Montenegro from Serbia and marginalazing Serb ethnic majority with the help from
Milo Djukanovic stripping them of meaningful political power.That's precisely what was planned for Bosna i herzegovina but failed miserably due to the brilliant leadership of Republika Srpska.Our brothers in Russia are looked at through the same lens and West is cooking their goose.Fragmentation of Russian Federations is the Western goal.However that's on hold for now due to the Western financial melt down and open split in NATO alliance in regard to the expansion Eastward.Restart button is always above reset button in Western World control panel,so be prepared for changes which could, but not likely to happen.Why the West dislike Serbs and Russians so much?The answer may lie in Western description "Hard to crack-impossible to bend"

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Agim Kelmendi

pre 13 godina

"conditions have not been met" for a reduction in the number of international troops there.

and here I tought that VS will fill the void!

If I was a Serb politician or military brass , I will never make any comment regarding Kosova, since is not part of Serbia. You guys are making yourselfvs look like fools.

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

For starters, Im humbled that Mr. General boy addresses Kosova's friends as the "Great Western Powers", good boy. Im glad he knows how to respect authority.

Second, Miletić also noted that Serbia's military had "exceptionally good cooperation" with the NATO-led forces in the province".

After you get a good batine like this generals army recieved, one will learn to "cooperate".

I read a comment by a reader in another article who was boasting about how NATO only destroyed 15 tanks. Kosova was a complete loss for Serbia in every way people! Whether 15 tanks or 5000 tanks were destroyed is irrelevant. The goal was to kick the Serb "offensive" force out of Kosova which they succeeded in doing so. Again, Im confused when I witness a Serb take a military loss and miraculously turn it around into a victory by boasting of "only 15 tanks" that were destroyed while ignoring the fact that their army that was supposed to "defend" Kosova, but instead left on NATOs orders? Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?

Prince Lazar would be rolling over in his grave right now if he knew about Serbia losing Kosova.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)
--
We always end up turning a loss into a win my friend. We kicked the Ottomans out, we kicked the NAZIs out and it looks like NATO will kick itself out.

NATO (well lets say the "Great Western Powers") agreed to UNSCR1244 before we allowed KFOR to deploy. Really, who better to temporarily look after our KiM Albanians? They now even admit to allowing serious crime and covering it up for the sake of stability but it looks like that little plan backfired, as it always does. Once upon a time the "Great Western Powers" supported Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden just as they do Hashim Thaci but we all know how quickly things can change, right?

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Lalo

pre 13 godina

I think the war against NATO was a victory. A small nation of 8 million faught the worlds biggest and strongest army and the end resault there was no clear winner. Serbia cleaned KLA forces from Kosovo in 2 weeks. NATO 10years on are still fighting the Telaban. Serbia shot down over 77 nato planes and no one is talking about it? Its funny right after the war Canada said it needs 3 billion to fix there air force. What about the apachee helicopters? didn;t even leave the ground in tirana why is that? Serbia proved that we could hit back hard but whats the point? for many more years of economical isolation. NATO inharited albainian gangsters + kosovo problem. Over 400 serbian police officers died keeping peace in kosovo before the real fight started. Would any western country accept this on there soil? And yes this was a victory worlds biggest power only destroyed 15 tanks at the cost of many billion of dollars. And no its not 1389 all over in 1389 the entire serbian army was killed this time the serbian army was not even brused.Nato no thanks we dont join organizations which kill more children then solders! LIVE TODAY FIGHT TOMORROW ITS NOT OVER!

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MikeC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours. The albanians know it and the West knows it. If Kosovo indeed is independent we wouln't have droves of insecure albs saying it is. Why justify the obvious?

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sj

pre 13 godina

(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34
Yep I’m extremely funny. How did NATO impose its will on Serbia because last time I looked a defeat meant that NATO would have taken over Serbia. Perhaps you’re from a parallel universe. According to all the propaganda there was no trade agreement, no SAA, no visa free travel until Kosovo is recognized – we got all of that and more to come and Kosovo has not been recognized as independent.
Serbia did not win but neither did NATO. For a small nation of only 8 million they didn’t do too badly as it had NATO making consessions, but as you’re an American who sleeps with the flag wrapped around himself every night you and fed on BS via fox et al you would not have been told of these facts.
It’s always easy to fight a small nation that was under sanctions for years – the US is good at that just look at Iraq. NATO first attacked Serb forces in Kosovo with no affect. So they started bombing buildings – immovable objects in Serbia proper which as I said before could be done with an 17 century artillery piece; all that BS about superior weapons and that’s all they could do. Perhaps I should remind you that the vast amount of depleted uranium was used in Kosovo and never cleaned up, which means your people are breathing this stuff up every day.
NATO would never have used its land forces because of fear of heavy losses. Yes, the like of Albright were all gung hoe in using them, but Bill could see that was not a good idea – don’t you people in the US read anything?
The real PR catch cry was “NATO victory over Serbia which was forced to sign a document of surrender” it was only after they made concessions "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back”.
Ah you have mentioned my favoutrite subject the Chinese. The bombing of the Chinese embassy was the GREATEST military mistake in 100 years – this idiotic act cost the US a staggering amount.
As soon as this happened silly Bill Clinton tried to get the Chinese President on the phone to apologize – he could not contact him for 3 days. Clinton was BEGGING the Chinese; begging. Without going into too much details it would have been cheaper if the new embassy built in Belgrade was made of 24 carot gold.
I suggest that you Americans start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like feeding the 90 million living in poverty (40 million live off food stamps alone) and paying off your debts and trying rebuilding the ghost towns on the great lakes such as Detroit.

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Jovan

pre 13 godina

once again "truth chicago" is entertaining us with amusing comments!

so, NATO flew 38.000 missions, right?

and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

and you think NATO "won"?

let me ask you, "truth chicago", how old are you, actually?

you really think a victorious alliance would have had to sign an agreement with a defeated country?

the socalled "kumanovo agreemtent", is certainly something you´ve never heard of...right? =)


those NATO-generals were quite happy not to be forced to send ground-troops, I guess.

and what´s best, NATO will leave southern Serbia some day. and that will be a great day not only for the Serbs, but for all of us.

just a question of time.

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American Eagle

pre 13 godina

The General said that the "Great Western Powers" accepted Serbia's military neutrality. Sounds like the West is agreeing to the Serbian viewpoint, not the other way around. And Kosovo can never claim to have defeated Serbia in the war. Your leaders, Thaci and Co. were hiding in Albania harvesting organs while NATO did all the dirty work. It is sickening to see the videos of the KLA fighters walking in the streets after the Serbian troops left claiming responsibility for "defeating" the Serbian Army. Your "liberation day" in the villages around here make me sick too. The KLA was an ineffective force and could do nothing but shoot at police and run back into Albania to hide from the Serbian Army. NATO was duped into taking side with Clinton's statements that 100,000 men were missing from Kosovo supplied by the KLA's misinformation department.

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.

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JohnBoy (Chicago)

pre 13 godina

The tide of history is changing again today - america's boy in Egypt is being thrown out. The albos are nothing without america and the american government is slowly facing a re-shuffling like Egypt's. If the unemployment level does not fall before November 2012, america's old ways (and allies) will be thrown out as well. In Egypt, it was translated as Independence Square. In america, it is called The Mall.

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pss

pre 13 godina

The Truth Chicago is probably a refugee who now carries an American passport and spews hate that we hate in the US. You aren't the kind of person that we need in our country. You are no better than the Klan or any white supremacy group.
(American Eagle, 10 February 2011 18:36)
It always amazes me when I read a comment that is nothing but a message filled with hatred and irrational comments and then ends condemning others with being filled with hate.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 23:34)
--
Where did you get that from? Jamie Shea or CNN?

Lets put it this way. Prior to NATO's illegal aggression on Serbia "The Great Western Powers" had an ultimatum called the Rambouillet Agreement, which Serbia flatly refused only because of two clauses:

1. It would allow NATO to deploy throughout the whole territory of what was then Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro).

2. After 3 years it would allow a referendum to take place in KiM on the issue of independence, which we all know would have resulted in independence.

Now after 78 days of bombing and attempting to force Milosevic to accept that ultimatum it was NATO, yes the "Great Western Powers" that dropped those two very unacceptable clauses, that led to UNSCR1244 and the cessation of bombing.

You see, the battle continues and neither Serbia nor NATO won. In the end there was no victory for either side. The "Great Western Powers" became responsible for feeding 2 million mouths and were incompetent in controlling crime so they just let it happen. They were responsible for the ethnic cleaning of 200,000 Serbians. It seems they are finally regretting their actions and it looks like we've past the turning point. NATO will leave a lot easier than what we went through with the NAZIs and Ottomans.

As for NATO's great ground forces, yes, I've seen them in action. A bunch of cavemen in Afghanistan are kicking their backside. I suppose that's why they never deployed in the 78 day bombing campaign. They couldn't stand the embarrassment of defeated.

Cheers my friend!

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The Truth Chicago

pre 13 godina

@LALO

youre a very funny guy.

Nation of 8 million stood up to NATO? Really? You're absolutely dillusional if you believe this war was somehow beneficial to Serbia. Getting bombed for 78 days straight is not a victory. You didnt "stand up" to NATO, rather NATO imposed their will on Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail NATO surrendering to Serbia. A Serbian victory would entail the securing of Kosovar borders with the Serbian army. Last I checked that never happened.

First, NATO only fought Serbia with aircraft alone and not with tanks, infantry, etc etc. To say NATO fought with its full force is rediculous. Serbia was defeated in 78 days with a decaffinated military of NATO. I wouldn't quite be jumping up and down cheering as if youre in the Gaza Strip.

NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions! Thats an incredible amount of sorties and an incredible amount of bombs falling on the Serb's heads, buildings, munitions factories, barracks, Chinese relay station for Yugoslav army radio signals(embassy) etc. The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That goal was achieved. Im still missing where this alleged "serbian victory" is?

Anyway, do you want to know how this "serbian victory" ended?

"On June 3, 1999 Milošević capitulated and accepted peace conditions".

I thought Serbians fight to the end? I thought they will not be defeated? what happened to the nation of 8 million resisting the "aggressors"? I guess folks realized its a losing battle:) If winning isnt everything then why do people keep scores?

Start putting all that energy you people have into productive things like building up your own country and taking care of your own people.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

As long as Serbia doesen't recognize Kosovo it is legaly ours.
(MikeC, 10 February 2011 17:22)

So Sad, So Sad. The only thing that is certain is that serbia has in fact NO legal authority of any kind whatsoever.

That is Your position so long as you yourselves desperately cling to Un1244 still being in effect.

Bolstered by the fact that serbia ran away from making any further legal to kosovo.

Serbia has lost nothing,can lose nothing. Has nothing to offer. All it has is the delusion that where force and violence failed, they can somehow negotiate a theft.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(AdamNYC, 11 February 2011 10:54)
The Serbian armed forces are not prison guards we leave that to the likes of Albanian allies.
Here is what he said "…..KFOR is still the top security authority in Kosovo and Metohija as far as we're concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.
Where are the Albanian armed forces of Kosovo? What not enough donkeys available?

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

Of Course not.

Serbia is Under Pressure NOT to join Nato... Russia will not allow it.

serbia may have purchased russian "friendship" selling off dirt chip its energy future and acting as russias glorified gas station to western markets.

But that payment does not cover serbia making any choices that run contrary to russian interests.


and lol at the serb army general flatly admitting it has no jurisdiction in kosovo, isnt it utterley fascinating that serb apologists dont get upset at anything unless someone gives them a propagandist cue card.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(Agim Kelmendi, 10 February 2011 12:58)


No you’re not a serb politician or military brass but you seem to me to be just a pizza delivery lad trying to look like a field marshal, but so far everyone of your predictions have come to nothing. Last time I looked the international force was there to control Kosovo not the rest of Serbia, but then you people are very good at making a prison look like paradise.

Look boys at how the US is loosing it grip in the middle east – very soon Egypt GONE. I would be very worried.


(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The mighty west could not dent the Serb army in Kosovo so they went to bomb buildings – gee NATO with all its superior equipment and all they did was target stationary objects; why even 17 century canons could have done that job.

Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in New York; that was until William Cohen saw the amount of military equipment leaving Kosovo not even scratched – he the terminated Wesley NATO general ship 3 months short as punishment. What was that again about that superior weans?????

If they have won resoundly why is Kosovo still a protectorate after 12 years of “freedom”? But dazzle men with your Albanians victories over the Serbs – opps there are none. Another Albanians wrapping himself in a foreign flag or is it just another American windbag talking thorough his rear end.

Preporučujem 21 Ne preporučujem 7
Amer

pre 13 godina

"and all they were capable of destroying was 15 tanks and some symbolic buildings in downtown-Belgrade?

(Jovan, 11 February 2011 15:19) "

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.

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KU

pre 13 godina

"Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it."

No Zoran, it does not come down to that because that was never the problem. First there was another agreement, signed in the summer of the previous year that failed because there was no way to enforce it. Only some observers with no power to do anything that ended up negotiating releases between Albanians kidnapped by Serbs and Serbs kidnapped by Albanians. And then Racak and other nasty stuff happened to show that it failed.

So the next step of course is to have troops on the ground to enforce any agreements (KFOR). The clause on allowing NATO access to all of Serbia was not even taken into consideration by the Serbian team. It was not even opposed by them. The sensible answer to that part of the document would have been "we cannot accept this clause, it is too much". They were called the Rambouillet talks. As in any talks you make some maximal demands to remove them later. Asked later, the other side (US and European countries and Russia) said that clause would have been removed if the slightest opposition to it had been expressed. Serbian team did not do it. Instead they went back two weeks later with whole parts of the document blackened out, not just that problematic clause, and changes to the documents that just displayed plain arrogance. Even the Russian envoy (Ivanov?) was embarrassed, basically it was a loss of his time.

24 hours before the bombing started Holbrooke was in Belgrade with Milosevic still trying to avoid everything that came later. Milosevic had other plans, maybe imaginary Russian anti-aircraft, maybe NATO would break up, maybe destabilize neighboring countries with refugees.

It was an ultimatum yes, a signature was needed and troops on the ground (only in Kosovo) to enforce it. It was an ultimatum on the Albanian part as well and a hard one because it contained no mention about independence. Thaci literally lost his mind between the pressure (threats) not to sign it from KLA commanders (and Adem Demaci, doubt you know who he is) on the ground and pressure from Americans and Madeleine Albright to sign it, otherwise the Albanians would lose all western support and KLA and everybody else would be left at Milosevic's mercy. Some diplomats present there said he was even crying at times. Madeleine Albright got really mad at him because everything came close to a total failure. The funds-collecting KLA points around the west started receiving threatening calls by unknown people speaking in English threatening them the KLA would be wiped out if they did not sign. In the end the Albanians gave in and signed a document with no mention about independence. They had no choice. All this to get Serbia to sign it. Milosevic did not sign. He did not even ask to remove the clause about troops over all Serbia. It took 78 days and many useless killings to sign the same thing.

Do you really think Americans wanted to keep tanks and military troops close to, say, Belgrade? Invade all of Serbia, a European country and with a population hostile to them? What for, what for? For the Zastava factories? For the tennis players? For the football fans? What is so precious in Serbia worth invading it? Very important geostrategic positions that if you sit in the middle of Novi Pazar you can rule the world? Huge amounts of oil? Wake up, it is 2011 :).

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Zoran, 11 February 2011 11:53)

well Zoran, I would hardly call total destruction of the enemy a victory. This is what you are implying. It was good for Serbia that NATO standards are different from yours. Your standards seem more similar to those of Russia in Chechnya.

In retrospect, even though what happened is tragic because innocent people were killed, at least it showed the Serbs in Belgrade and Serbia proper who made it out alive what it means to have bombs flying over your head. An experience in common with Sarajevo residents who made it out alive. To the luck of Belgraders it only lasted 78 days, not 3 years.

One should also consider the technological disparity between one side and the other and how important that is for being able to claim moral superiority during a war. NATO could afford to fight at minimal risk, from the air, NATO could afford high precision missiles so as to minimize loss of lives in the civilian population. In short, NATO could afford much more precise surgical operations with obvious benefits on public opinion. Serbia did not have high precision bombs, nor planes worth mentioning. So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

concerned, as defined by (UNSC) Resolution 1244…’ You know 1244; the one you guys always deny it’s there ha, ha, ha.

(sj, 11 February 2011 12:47)

sigh... 1244, the same document that confirms serbia has no legal authority whatsover in kosovo?

The same document that says the govt. of kosovo Does?

Yay?

Kosovo is serbia is the rallying cry of the desperate. But The serbian army clearly and emphatically knows differently, doesnt it sj?

The only thing i could possibly find fault with the serbian generals comment is his use of "Kosovo and Metohija" ... a term that appears no where in un1244 that you hold so dearly to.

do enjoy.

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John

pre 13 godina

That was all the damage they did, and Milosevic caved? Nato achieved its mission, which was not the defeat of Serbia, but "JNA out, peacekeepers in, refugees back." If the Albanians were able to turn that into independence, well, good for them - it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

Your statement is highly flawed. Heres why.

1. The terms had been offered to Nato Before the bombing began
2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999
3. Since Nato Forces have entered, over 300,000 refugees have fled
4. Kosovo isnt independent

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

it was never one of the original aims.
(Amer, 11 February 2011 16:01)

It really became the OPEN objective of Bush administration.
However, don't forget the "secret" Ramboulliet accords.

As under

http://www.peace.ca/whowonwar.htm

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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KU

pre 13 godina

(Ataman, 11 February 2011 19:00)

oh good lord...where has logic gone? make up some goals in your head and then criticize them in an article of July 5 1999, not even one month after the war had ended. NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in. It happened. Macleans is asking about peaceful coexistence, multi-ethnic society while the coal of the burned houses is still warm? Is he for real?

NATO is not a policy maker, it is a tool, an army, a military organization. As an army it does not create goals, it follows orders, the only goals it has are the orders it gets: win the objectives of a war when the policymakers who command it deem it useful to start a war, be a muscle during peacetime (KFOR) to support policies made by others. It would be like asking general Miletic why don't you fix inflation in Serbia.

Those other arguments of Kosovo creating precedents and of spending tax-payer's money and of conflicts between Christians and Muslims have been used and reused and rewashed so much now that they are boring. Because they are not true, just misleading. Oh yes, there is a new one I had never heard of, on July 5 1999 he predicts war between NATO and KLA. Wrong prediction, it never happened. KLA was disarmed as it was asked to. Finally, the author says he knows what Milosevic would have done. How in the world does he know? Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

So Serbian government did the stupid thing, just went in Kosovo and fought Russian style. Forgetting (?) that Serbia is in Europe.
(KU, 11 February 2011 17:46)
--
Serbia didn't go into Kosovo as Kosovo is a part of Serbia. Serbian forces were dealing with ethnic Albanians fighting Al Qaeda style, you know - terrorists. They were killing civilians, police and even their own who were loyal to Serbia.

Look, it comes down to the West pretending to negotiate with their ultimatum called the Rambouillet agreement. Serbia couldn't accept it, in fact no one could and they knew it. Once they realised we could sit it out as NATO was evermore divided and losing international support it had to drop the two conditions Milosevic demanded.

If those two conditions weren't there to begin with then a peace deal could have been made without the aggression, murder and destruction caused by NATO.

As for BiH, do some research on the Lisbon agreement. Again war could have been avoided if it wasn't for Western interference. In fact, had they not reneged, the Bosnian Muslims would have ended up with more territory and avoided the whole war but they were promised all of BiH by you know who.

Look, you only have to look all around the world to know who are the aggressors. I don't see Russia or China in other sovereign countries causing death and destruction. It's obvious who is though.

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Its the battle of 1389 all over again. Im perplexed at the ability of Serbs to believe a loss is a win. Someone please explain this to me?
(The Truth Chicago, 10 February 2011 16:08)

The entire Kosovo battle is full of controversy. Saying that it was a "Serbian victory" is not really off because Turks were routed and churches all over Europe rang bells in celebration.

If it was a victory it was than certainly a "Pyrrhic victory" - but less because of Turks, more because in the autumn of 1389 Holy Roman Emperor of Luxembourg dynasty Sigismund invaded Serbia. The widow of Lazar did judge that threat to be more serious than the Turkish - so she (quite logically) allied herself with the enemy who was just beaten in order to fight of an enemy which was presumed to be more mighty.

That sealed the fate more, than the Kosovo battle.

More about Sigismund here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

We can say, Sigismund was the tragedy of Croats (see Bloody Sabor of Križevci), tragedy of Czechs (see Hussite Wars), tragedy of Poles, tragedy of Serbs, tragedy of Bosnians (Tvrtko may have been murdered in 1391 on Sigismund's order).

What is not in English Wiki is in Serbian:

"После Косовског боја Жигмунд је напао кнежевину Србију, али су га њени вазални односи са Отоманском империјом спречили у освајању њених области"

His acts against menacing Turks were pretty much unsuccessful. So it was less Sultans, more the (un)Holy Roman Emperor who sealed the fate of Balkans and made a defeat out of victory.

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

NATO's stated goals, as somebody said, were different from those the writer of the article makes up, to then dispute them. The goals were JNA out, refugees in.
(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)
--
There were no refugees until after NATO started bombing so what was NATO's goal? Create the refugees and then get them back in? Where has your logic gone?

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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Ataman

pre 13 godina

Sorry Ataman, that article is irrational, makes no sense.

(KU, 11 February 2011 21:10)

KU,

You misunderstood the purpose I provided the link. As you see, I took the last sentence of that article 1:1. Would I just take it and put here as mine without the link - that would be theft.

To bad, that sentence is not mine - but I rather provide the link than to steal someone's else words… (OK, sometimes I do but not this time).

So here it again, really well said:

"When it comes to policy options for Kosovo, it's hard to see any essential difference between the outcome of the actions of Clinton, Milosevic and Blair. Each has a vision of how human beings there ought to exist, and those who didn't fit their notion were either tortured or cluster-bombed."

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Amer

pre 13 godina

"2. The JNA didnt exist in 1999

(John, 12 February 2011 02:32) "

Sorry, I couldn't remember the abbreviation exactly - I seem to remember the quote as "JVA," but when I looked it up once, I thought I found it was actually "JNA." (The quote is from "The Mission" by Dana Priest, the WaPo journalist who broke the secret prisons story, BTW.)

I'm not sure how the provisions of the Rambouillet annex explain Milosevic's willingness to give up so readily - maybe he thought he could spin the non-stationing of US forces in Serbia as a victory?

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PRO-SERBIA

pre 13 godina

That will be Serbian's greatest mistake if it joins NATO. There is no point for Serbia joining the western alliance since this organization is the one occupying Kosovo province.

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Luke Buyenovich

pre 13 godina

"Not under pressure to join NATO"It may not
be overt pressure but its implied one.
Why join NATO?What's there for Serbia?
There is no necessity or wisdom in join
NATO in current configurations.NATO has
no future in any configuration without
Russia in it.So we wait and see what
Russia does.Make no mistake our future
is closely link with Russia.EU is not
military alliance therefore,we should be
willing to join with Kosovo as integral
part of Serbia.Some in the West believe
Serbia should not even exist as independent sovereign state no matter how small and militarily non threatening it
may be.Serbia's Government must face this unpleasant reality and navigate this treacherous path for betterment of Serbian Nation with clarity,vision
and determination.One should look at West success and failure in regard to two Serbian entities Montenegro and Republika Srpska.West have succeeded in detaching Montenegro from Serbia and marginalazing Serb ethnic majority with the help from
Milo Djukanovic stripping them of meaningful political power.That's precisely what was planned for Bosna i herzegovina but failed miserably due to the brilliant leadership of Republika Srpska.Our brothers in Russia are looked at through the same lens and West is cooking their goose.Fragmentation of Russian Federations is the Western goal.However that's on hold for now due to the Western financial melt down and open split in NATO alliance in regard to the expansion Eastward.Restart button is always above reset button in Western World control panel,so be prepared for changes which could, but not likely to happen.Why the West dislike Serbs and Russians so much?The answer may lie in Western description "Hard to crack-impossible to bend"

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