“Marty’s report test for CoE”

@JohnC: I agree that there are horribly disturbing images of massacred people from all ethnicities that could be posted. It's never ending.

The difference is that many photos were seen and published and stories told of murders by Serbians, but there were very few indeed of the victims of the KLA - no matter what ethnicity.

So it is fair and timeworthy to post stories and images in light of the Marty report. It is part of something previously unseen and currently newsworthy.

Personally, I would like to see the photo of proud KLA soldiers with the head of a decapitated Serbian soldier on the front pages of the Western press while their governments justify the actions of their 'allies' [ http://www.kosovo.net/kladecapit1.jpg ]

In various Western nations we degraded our troops into working alongside the KLA and paid our taxes towards their training. So why would it not be relevant?

@ Agim - I assume that you already sourced and read the same quote from the doctor before referring to it.

@ IUPM - Thanks!

dear k-albanian dutchman, you´ve made a great fuss about the allegedly biased serbo-belorussian forensic team, and the of course very much more credible finnish team of forensic experts.

well, I am astonished that you didn´t mention Dr.Helena Ranta, a leading member of that finnish team, that has made public statements which you as a k-albanian certainly would not like to hear.

but, after all, you are just another one of those who are writing only half of the truth, bending it so that it fits to your narrow view on these things.

as I have written it before, once the time has come, you will have to swallow the truth.

your propaganda-attempts are actually quite lousy. but keep trying.
seems like you still don´t get it.

Serbia will prevail.

(The Flying Dutchman, 25 January 2011 12:41)

Copied direct from wikipedia, I suggest you look at the sources, they are Albanian. It fails to note that one of the victims had a bullet wound in his arm, but there wasnt a hole his the shirt, and that the finnish team didnt release its findings until 2002, and when it did, it announced that the victims were KLA soldiers. The fact that you got the number of victims wrong aslo doesnt help your case.

As for your link to the totally objective and completely unbiased website “Kosovo and Metohija” containing articles like “Racak hoax’, “KLA terror”, “NATO aggression” and video’s like“We bombed the wrong side” well…forgive me if I put more weight on the Finnish forensic report on this matter.

@Kate

So the Racak massacre did not happen, because an AFP cam crew said so? Is that what you describe as "plenty evidence"? What did they exactly testifie and what do these photo's show that is beyond any doubt that it was all staged by the KLA? Please Kate, post some links so I can see it for myself.
(The Flying Dutchman, 25 January 2011 12:41)

Those arent articles, but documentries, videos and photographic evidence, had you clicked on them I wouldnt have to tell you that, The fact that your not even willing to view the evidence tells us alot about yourself. However, I am here to establish the truth, so here is your link http://kosovoandmetohija.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12300872-racak-investigator

I would also recommend you view the Doco on the milosevic trial part 1 on the same website, some interesting things about Racak in there (Btw the charges were dropped eventually)

Hang your heads in shame EU, you've been caught out and this time, Your people are listening. To All Albanians demanding 'proof' , then here it is
Taken Pre Yugoslav Intervention - The closest man has been mutilated with an axe, The far man has had his legs cut off and was forced, dying, to watch his wife have her organs brutally removed by the KLA. Welcome to Thaci's Kosovo

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8968/klavictims11.jpg

He is completely right.

"The committee vote was very close..."

How could any of the supposed civilised and righteous nations in Europe vote against a full investigation into this matter?

There is only one reason: that the same countries want to bury their involvement in lying and keeping silent about a long list of the most horrendous crimes imaginable, while spinning the truth about crimes being perpetrated against Kosovo Albanians by 'Serbs' as headlined in the press.

Barely a squeak about Serbians, Albanians, Roma and others killed, kidnapped, brutalised and displaced by the KLA before during and after 1999.

I would never dispute that terrible things were also done by Serbian paramilitaries and police, but the scale is not as represented in the Western media to justify the attack on Serbia. Racak was a clear lie as were many of the stories spun all over the media.

When that cockney used car salesman Shea was not making the grade on the Goebbels level, Blair dispatched Alastair Campbell to Brussels to show them how the former editor of porn mags and low life of the British gutter press could do the job admirably.

There were straight out lies told which cost the lives of many people and all of those leading these activities should be sent to the Hague.

The silence about crimes committed by the KLA has been deafening. The Western media even wrote off terrible murders as 'revenge' attacks (despite the fact that they were against people like farmers and the elderly).

Now is the time for the stories to come out of victims of the KLA, and the various amoral governments supporting them to be exposed widely to their populations. Maybe next time, people will think twice about enabling their governments to do such a thing again and believing that war could ever be that black and white, or that it was right to dehumanise and destroy people like in a Nintendo game.

If there is a genuine media left which is not just part of the establishment, I truly hope that they will now step forward and do their jobs and help these poor people and their families to find some peace.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.
--
Aint that the truth!

I applaud you, Mr. Graf, for having the courage, and the dignity to speak out on the shameful Balkan policy of the US/EU. It is too late for all the wrongs that were committed against Serbia in the past 20 years now, but hopefully going forward, things will not be decided with pre-determined conclusions.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.
--
Aint that the truth!
(Zoran, 23 January 2011 11:00

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.

@ Agim - What Dr Stankovic actually said was [ http://www.groundreport.com/Politics/Is-New-Probe-Into-Organ-Trafficking-Claims-Justifi/2860342 ]:

"“Such operations must be conducted by a team of experts in very sterile conditions and in an operating theatre…. If this indeed happened, then a very professional and trained expert team was involved,” Stankovic told IWPR.

He adds that if such operations had been conducted, there would have been some paper-trail of the transit arrangements and also at the recipient hospital.

“A medical institution receiving human organs for transplantation must note that it has received them. If the organs are transported by a plane or helicopter, the flight has to be announced. Some traces must exist. Human organs are transported in special conditions and in a very limited time,” said Stankovic."


So what he actually said was not that it couldn't happen, but that it would require a high level of organised support.

That makes for even more chilling possibilities, not less.

@ Ian US - But it's not a Serb or Russian saying it now is it?

Many would say that Graf is right, including a great number of people on here who are also neither Serbian nor Russian.

Hard luck - no longer can everything said by Serbians and their "sympathisers" (aka people who have their own thoughts on things which do not follow the Western media) be written off.

I would never dispute that terrible things were also done by Serbian paramilitaries and police, but the scale is not as represented in the Western media to justify the attack on Serbia. Racak was a clear lie as were many of the stories spun all over the media.

When that cockney used car salesman Shea was not making the grade on the Goebbels level, Blair dispatched Alastair Campbell to Brussels to show them how the former editor of porn mags and low life of the British gutter press could do the job admirably.

There were straight out lies told which cost the lives of many people and all of those leading these activities should be sent to the Hague.
(kate, 23 January 2011 12:56

I couldn't agree more with your comment.
The hounding of Milosevic by NATO and the subsequent bombing of Serbia's infrastructure punished the Serbian population.The average Serb was not involved in those terrible things much like the average Brit didn't take part in the murdering of children or civilians
in Iraq and Afganistan.So why punish them?

In restrospect i would've loved to see Milosevic still alive questioning his two chief witnesses Tony Bliar and Bill Clinton at the Hague tribunal, surely those two would never lie to their governments or to the British and American people.WOULD THEY?

It also seems to me that the dish of Albanian "self-victimisation" is not on EU's menu any longer.This is why we see people like Marty and Graf coming out and exposing the lies on which EU policy is formulated.

@ Adam NYC - All of these stories and more have flooded the Western media for 20 years, and while there were terrible cases (on all sides) to be answered for, the amount of spin was incredible against Serbia.

That is the problem. If you build a house quickly but with shaky foundations then it will not last.

The 'internationals' may have used, I mean 'helped', the Kosovo Albanians to annex Serbian territory and obtain an independence which has no legal foundations for the future, but it was done using so much spin to achieve political ends!

It would have been better for independence seeking Kosovo Albanians not to have bought into the empty promises, quick 'solution' and moment in the spotlight. This actually did a great disservice to everyone.

I mean do you really believe that these 'humanitarian' politicians like Blair and Clinton actually give a sh*t about any of us? Everything is about money, land, oil and personal gain with those people. They don't care if people are poor, have jobs or can afford to feed their kids (unless it's in the press!).

It would be better all around if a new administration comes into being in Kosovo, and Belgrade and Pristina sort something out as a longterm solution.

Belgrade is unable to negotiate with Thaci, and he and all of the leaders and minions from all sides with blood on their hands should answer to their crimes at the Hague.

If there is a genuine media left which is not just part of the establishment, I truly hope that they will now step forward and do their jobs and help these poor people and their families to find some peace. - Kate
Your entire post is excellent, Kate. Let's see how the world's mainstream media handles this but, I won't have my hopes too high, as I know the spin doctors are feverishly at work at trying to prevent any of the truth about the KLA coming out. How could they then explain backing them?

"I have the decency not to show here the pictures of the exterminated Berisha family where from 6-month baby up to the 90 year old elderly have been masacered."
JohnC

Berisha using civilians as hostages. And albanians call him a hero!

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)

Good luck with your graphic image. I can pull hundreds of those type of images from internet. where is that pic taken, somewhere in Burma,N.Korea,Somalia, etc...
you ought to be a shamed of yourself for pullinga stunt like that.
You best surgen in Serbia named Stankovic testified that is not possible at all that any organ harvesting and/or transplent ocurred in Albania. Why don't you listen to him what he has to say, but yet you listen to a poltician from Swiss alps.

JohnC, why did the KLA slaughter the Berisha family, that's an Albanian surname?

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.

This is the same propaganda that Serbs and Russians were spreading for the last 20 years. Period.

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.
(Leonidas, 23 January 2011 13:25)
--
Yes Leonidas but who put Tadic in power? He is a Western leaning leader and Nikolic is no better. At this point in time it will take another revolution to restore Serbia's dignity. That will come but we have to wait for now.

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)

I have the decency not to show here the pictures of the exterminated Berisha family where from 6-month baby up to the 90 year old elderly have been masacered.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.

Yeah and now america is starting to pay for it. Go read the reports on the internet for yourself. About how China's new stealth plane is using us technology that was reverse-engineered from the F-117 that was shot down by the Serbs. If you really do your research, you will learn how america had a shortage of predator observation planes when it tried to corner osama bin laden in tora bora in 2001 because it wasted most of them in the kosovo air assault. The Serbs shot down the predators, too.

Berisha is in Tirana, they want to throw him out.

@the flying dutchman:

you didn´t get my point, my friend.

it´s not a threat, it´s a certainty. you guys keep writing down your wishful thinking here, be it the desperately needed " illyrian descent " ( needed for your own psyche ) or be it that " the one and only global super-power " ( that´s how another rather naive k-albanian kiddie has put it once )
is your " friend "...


they aren´t. and you will have to swallow that.


the bottom-line of my comment, that you didn´t understand, is: your little freak creation will come to an end. it´s only temporarily occupied serbian territory, and you may fool yourself now, but you won´t fool yourself forever.

no, my dear k-albanian dutchman... you don´t have to be afraid of Serbia, since all will be fine when the time has come for reintegration. you will even have some profit of that.

your attitude, interpreting each and every word coming from a Serb as a threat, by the way is quite typical for the usual mislead k-albanian who was raised from his youngest age with hatred against Serbs and their state, in on whose territory you actually live.

in the contrary my friend, that says much about you. so, don´t fool yourself by acting as if you are a psychologist, your comparison is quite cheesy though.

once again it should be pointed out that some western official is saying this.

very interesting, actually.


not only was it interesting to see that the Washington Post PRINTED the written critical attitude of a WP-journalist in contrast to the already well known forced-into-line-comments that are usually published...

now an EU-official is SAYING publicly something similar, ...and of course our dear k-albanian friends in here have nothing more to contribute than those poor attempts to belittle that as "serbian propaganda"... what is quite funny, given that they are constantly coming up with their illyrian phantasies here... =)

kids, do not think in that direction! it´s not about propaganda, it´s more about creating pressure on the Albanians.

and you WILL stand still if the "westerners" say so, because without them, you are LOST.

and deep inside, you know that.

and, that is only a question of time, until you lose support.

history is repeating, that is something you will have to cope with.

and that´s good.

oh, please, go on with these "serbian propaganda"-claims.

it makes me laugh constantly, since it shows that you do not have much more to bring forward than your desperate wishful thinking.

Hang your heads in shame EU, you've been caught out and this time, Your people are listening. To All Albanians demanding 'proof' , then here it is
Taken Pre Yugoslav Intervention - The closest man has been mutilated with an axe, The far man has had his legs cut off and was forced, dying, to watch his wife have her organs brutally removed by the KLA. Welcome to Thaci's Kosovo

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)
Without a source for your picture it is meaningless. There are 1000's of horrific photos out there from Yugoslavia, and without some type of verification these could be any ethnic group or not even a photo from the Y.

Bottom line it is proof of nothing other than it appears there are 3 bodies in a room that suffered some type of trauma.

Good luck with your graphic image. I can pull hundreds of those type of images from internet. where is that pic taken, somewhere in Burma,N.Korea,Somalia, etc...
you ought to be a shamed of yourself for pullinga stunt like that.
You best surgen in Serbia named Stankovic testified that is not possible at all that any organ harvesting and/or transplent ocurred in Albania. Why don't you listen to him what he has to say, but yet you listen to a poltician from Swiss alps.
(Agim Kelmendi, 23 January 2011 13:27)

Those are true photos and its very easy to discount your claim that they came from Somalia, Burma or North Korea.

Firstly The Picture Quality is far to good for cameras built in the 1950s, So they cant be Americans in North Korea (or Vietnam).

And Secondly they're White, meaning that they cant be Somalis, Burmese, Koreans, Cambodians, Vietnamesse.

What do you have to say for yourself?

@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax.

(The Flying Dutchman, 24 January 2011 01:50)

Forsenic tests by the Finno-Belorussian team showed that almost all the bodies had gunpowder residue on their hands, that their clothing had been changed, that none had been shot from close range and that the bodies had been moved Combined with The fact that one man who had been shot in the stomach lacked a hole in his clothing where the bullet should of entered, conflicting statements among the so called 'witnesses', The fact that the charges against Milosevic regarding Racak were dropped and testification from a Nato general (see link below) all proved that Racak was a hoax (theres also a very interesting documentry on that website about Racak, I would Advise you to watch it before making such judgements)

http://kosovoandmetohija.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12275806-nato-general-we-bombed-the-wrong-side

John, showing picture like that is horrible especially with no clear evidence of whom they are.

Whomever these victims were I regret that they have endured this horrible crime.

You have no idea how many pictures / TV-reports we have about the crimes the Serbs have commited to the Albanians and all of the people over the Balkans.

Albanians military brought back in closed and sealed couffins ripped apart, the poising of the water Prishtina, ...

Your crimes are unnumerous before and after the war of1 1999.

Kosova is free! With or without this report ... it will make no difference.

Tung

That makes for even more chilling possibilities, not less.
(kate, 23 January 2011 16:00)

I am glad you know what he said, and that makes you beleive your own lies based on your comments regarding this topic.

Martin Graf is member of the Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ), a right-wing, anti-islamic movement which is known for its anti immigration and anti islamic policies. So before Serbs get euforic about an other European politician who has the courage to finally tell the "truth" (thus meaning the Serbian side of the story), do a background check first before making silly comments. This guy is as biased as one possibly can be, so everything coming out of his mouth schould be taken with a huge grain of salt.

@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax.

@Jovan,

Speaking about desperation...threats like "Wait till you loose your support...", or "wait till NATO leaves Kosovo..." or "wait till the Serbian police and army returns to Kosovo..." speak volumes about which side is really desperate. Now, my question for you is this: do you really think that making such threats, will even for a bit scare the Albanians? Are you actually that naive to think that this type of language will somehow impress us? Well, i got news for you: We are not afraid of you any more. These are not the ninenties and Milosevic is dead.

@ Flying Dutchman:

"@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax."

There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that Racak was staged by the KLA and various other parties. If you ever saw the Milosevic trial with regard to this, it was supported by photo evidence and testimony from an AFP camera crew who were there at the time.

That's not to say that terrible things did not happen, but Racak was clearly staged and presented by William Walker in order to support the launch of attacks on Serbia.

As for your attack on Graf, the times when anyone questioning the KLA could just be discounted are now over.

Hard luck - no longer can everything said by Serbians and their "sympathisers" (aka people who have their own thoughts on things which do not follow the Western media) be written off.
(kate, 23 January 2011 16:56)
--
You are right Kate, Westerners are finally hearing the other side of the story whether through their own media or Eastern media now available in the West. RT is on freeview in the UK.

Who would have thought something like this is now freely aired in the UK?

Check
http://rt.com/programs/documentary/israel-shaul-pollack-occupation/
http://rt.com/programs/documentary/israel-occupation-2-pollack/

This is a Western made documentary that has similarities to the way Serbians are treated in KiM.

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.
(Leonidas, 23 January 2011 13:25)

EU is not written in stone, but getting out of the dark ages is.
Serbia is far too dynamic of a society to be under a Slavic yoke. There have been times in history when it appeared that Russia was taking Serbia under its wing. The historical sometimes relationship between Serbia and Russia was in essence artificial as was the East/West competition for control.
Its great potential for sane a rational living would be best met by joining the EU,given the lack of any real alternatives. Its days of striving to be a little fiefdom based on nationalism(like Montenegro,Croatia,Albania e.g.)is over.
Serbia has nothing to lose and everything to gain by joining the EU. Serbia is a multicultural society and her future is what is to be and not in what was.

Amazing, and here i thought this wasnt about politizing anything, it was about 'justice'

So lets get this straight, the plan is, that this magical mysterious report will somehow Re-write reality in its entirety?

and what is "off the table" is every action taken by serbs that led to violence in the first place? It in fact didnt happen?

milosevic didnt exist.serbs theft of the constitutional rights, representation, and powers of kosovo in what was yugoslavia didnt happen. the use of force, terror and violence to enforce this action didnt happen. That serbs, preceding any of the violence that came as a result, attempted to use this theft of representation to gives themselves illegal and undo power over their fellow republics didnt Cause the nations breakup. a decade of serbs wholehearted support of this dictator and tyrant and his apartheid institutions simply didnt exist. That the poor misunderstood and victimized serbia actually remained untouched throughout yugoslavias breakup as they gleefully exported their violence to all their neighbors didnt happen. That serbs were the only common denominator throughout all of the violence, across the entire region, across all ethnic and religious lines is not true. On and and on and on it goes, that every single deliberate political and violent choice and action made by serbs, for serbs,cheered by serbs over the past few decades is not even worthy of acknowlegement or explanation.

not only do serbs not have to take a shred of responsibility for anything, anwhere, anytime.
this magical mystery report erases all of it, and shows that It was all a conspiracy by the west.
That any and all violence... even utter fiction take after the fact... erases everything before.

is that right? is that the plan?

". If you really do your research, you will learn how america had a shortage of predator observation planes when it tried to corner osama bin laden in tora bora in 2001 because it wasted most of them in the kosovo air assault. The Serbs shot down the predators, too.
(JohnBoy, 23 January 2011 21:03) "

There were a lot of UAV shot down, but very few Predators - the Brits, French, Germans and Italians also were flying such missions, each lost a couple to a few.

A little off topic, but I just had a look through the news archives and noticed that at least 95% of Pro-Albanian comments were written by 6 People (Koso, Demi, Agim Kelmendi, Freedom, Pejoni and Amer) and that they all follow a pattern of "Kosovo is free", "Theres No Evidence"(they deny evidence when its shown to them) "We are Illyrian".

You would think that with all the Albanian comments, you would expect similar numbers of Croatian/Bosniak/ Macedonian/Russian/Greek/Slovene commenters, as well as similar numbers of Albanian commenters on Tanjug or Serbianna (where there are very, very few), I suspect that these 6 are simply paid to attempt to spread their propoganda to the Serbian disporia as an attempt to create some dissidents (and fail miserably doing so).

@John 
 
“Forsenic tests by the Finno-Belorussian team showed that almost all the bodies had gunpowder residue on their hands, that their clothing had been changed, that none had been shot from close range and that the bodies had been moved…”
 
Now, this is a striking example of what we Albanians call a "deliberate and vicious attempt to distort the facts and spin the truth". There was never a joint Finnish-Belarusian investigation into the killings of the 47 Albanian civilians. Why would you make such a false statement? There were only two, separate,  examination into the Racak massacre: an examination by a joint Serbian-Belarusian team and a forensic team from Finland(under the auspices of the European Union). The first team to carry out an autopsy on the bodies was the Serbian-Belarusian team, despite the great opposition of the Kosovo Verification Mission and ICTY who feared that the Serbs might mess up with or destroy the evidence, which later turned out to be exactly the case. As expected, the Serbia-Belarusian report stated that there was “no” evidence that the bodies were massacred and they even went that far to suggest that the bodies had been mutilated posthumously to ‘fabricate’ the appearance of an execution. The Finnish forensic team headed by Dr Helena Ranta found out quit the contrary stating that the dead were unarmed civilians and that they had been killed exactly at the place where they later were found. The claims that the dead had been killed wearing KLA uniforms which had then been replaced with civilian clothes, was categorically rejected, stating  that based on autopsy findings (e.g. bullet holes, coagulated blood) and photographs of the scenes, the clothes could not have been changed or removed.

Also the method used by the Serbian-Belarusian team to test for powder residue on the victims hands was widely criticized.  They used  paraffin eventhough it gives false positives because of many other substances, including fertilizers, tobacco, urine and cosmetics, and even provides false negatives on occasion. The parafin test is still used by the police of many countries who cannot afford more modern methods, but has been described since as early as 1967 as 'of no use scientifically.'

As for your link to the totally objective and completely unbiased website “Kosovo and Metohija” containing articles like “Racak hoax’, “KLA terror”, “NATO aggression” and video’s like“We bombed the wrong side” well…forgive me if I put more weight on the Finnish forensic report on this matter.
 
@Kate

So the Racak massacre did not happen, because an AFP cam crew said so? Is that what you describe as "plenty evidence"? What did they exactly testifie and what do these photo's show that is beyond any doubt that it was all staged by the KLA? Please Kate, post some links so I can see it for myself.

Why the Council of Europe debate is important:

http://www.transconflict.com/2011/01/a-dark-cloud-hangs-over-kosovo-231/

More and more interesting reading by the day. To think NATO has know about this all along. What a mess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/hashim-thaci-kosovo-organised-crime

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)

Good luck with your graphic image. I can pull hundreds of those type of images from internet. where is that pic taken, somewhere in Burma,N.Korea,Somalia, etc...
you ought to be a shamed of yourself for pullinga stunt like that.
You best surgen in Serbia named Stankovic testified that is not possible at all that any organ harvesting and/or transplent ocurred in Albania. Why don't you listen to him what he has to say, but yet you listen to a poltician from Swiss alps.

Hang your heads in shame EU, you've been caught out and this time, Your people are listening. To All Albanians demanding 'proof' , then here it is
Taken Pre Yugoslav Intervention - The closest man has been mutilated with an axe, The far man has had his legs cut off and was forced, dying, to watch his wife have her organs brutally removed by the KLA. Welcome to Thaci's Kosovo

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)
Without a source for your picture it is meaningless. There are 1000's of horrific photos out there from Yugoslavia, and without some type of verification these could be any ethnic group or not even a photo from the Y.

Bottom line it is proof of nothing other than it appears there are 3 bodies in a room that suffered some type of trauma.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.

This is the same propaganda that Serbs and Russians were spreading for the last 20 years. Period.

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
[link]
(John, 23 January 2011 10:56)

I have the decency not to show here the pictures of the exterminated Berisha family where from 6-month baby up to the 90 year old elderly have been masacered.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.
--
Aint that the truth!

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.
--
Aint that the truth!
(Zoran, 23 January 2011 11:00

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.

"The committee vote was very close..."

How could any of the supposed civilised and righteous nations in Europe vote against a full investigation into this matter?

There is only one reason: that the same countries want to bury their involvement in lying and keeping silent about a long list of the most horrendous crimes imaginable, while spinning the truth about crimes being perpetrated against Kosovo Albanians by 'Serbs' as headlined in the press.

Barely a squeak about Serbians, Albanians, Roma and others killed, kidnapped, brutalised and displaced by the KLA before during and after 1999.

I would never dispute that terrible things were also done by Serbian paramilitaries and police, but the scale is not as represented in the Western media to justify the attack on Serbia. Racak was a clear lie as were many of the stories spun all over the media.

When that cockney used car salesman Shea was not making the grade on the Goebbels level, Blair dispatched Alastair Campbell to Brussels to show them how the former editor of porn mags and low life of the British gutter press could do the job admirably.

There were straight out lies told which cost the lives of many people and all of those leading these activities should be sent to the Hague.

The silence about crimes committed by the KLA has been deafening. The Western media even wrote off terrible murders as 'revenge' attacks (despite the fact that they were against people like farmers and the elderly).

Now is the time for the stories to come out of victims of the KLA, and the various amoral governments supporting them to be exposed widely to their populations. Maybe next time, people will think twice about enabling their governments to do such a thing again and believing that war could ever be that black and white, or that it was right to dehumanise and destroy people like in a Nintendo game.

If there is a genuine media left which is not just part of the establishment, I truly hope that they will now step forward and do their jobs and help these poor people and their families to find some peace.

That makes for even more chilling possibilities, not less.
(kate, 23 January 2011 16:00)

I am glad you know what he said, and that makes you beleive your own lies based on your comments regarding this topic.

He is completely right.

Hang your heads in shame EU, you've been caught out and this time, Your people are listening. To All Albanians demanding 'proof' , then here it is
Taken Pre Yugoslav Intervention - The closest man has been mutilated with an axe, The far man has had his legs cut off and was forced, dying, to watch his wife have her organs brutally removed by the KLA. Welcome to Thaci's Kosovo

*WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE*
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8968/klavictims11.jpg

@ Ian US - But it's not a Serb or Russian saying it now is it?

Many would say that Graf is right, including a great number of people on here who are also neither Serbian nor Russian.

Hard luck - no longer can everything said by Serbians and their "sympathisers" (aka people who have their own thoughts on things which do not follow the Western media) be written off.

@ Agim - What Dr Stankovic actually said was [ http://www.groundreport.com/Politics/Is-New-Probe-Into-Organ-Trafficking-Claims-Justifi/2860342 ]:

"“Such operations must be conducted by a team of experts in very sterile conditions and in an operating theatre…. If this indeed happened, then a very professional and trained expert team was involved,” Stankovic told IWPR.

He adds that if such operations had been conducted, there would have been some paper-trail of the transit arrangements and also at the recipient hospital.

“A medical institution receiving human organs for transplantation must note that it has received them. If the organs are transported by a plane or helicopter, the flight has to be announced. Some traces must exist. Human organs are transported in special conditions and in a very limited time,” said Stankovic."


So what he actually said was not that it couldn't happen, but that it would require a high level of organised support.

That makes for even more chilling possibilities, not less.

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.
(Leonidas, 23 January 2011 13:25)
--
Yes Leonidas but who put Tadic in power? He is a Western leaning leader and Nikolic is no better. At this point in time it will take another revolution to restore Serbia's dignity. That will come but we have to wait for now.

I applaud you, Mr. Graf, for having the courage, and the dignity to speak out on the shameful Balkan policy of the US/EU. It is too late for all the wrongs that were committed against Serbia in the past 20 years now, but hopefully going forward, things will not be decided with pre-determined conclusions.

Hard luck - no longer can everything said by Serbians and their "sympathisers" (aka people who have their own thoughts on things which do not follow the Western media) be written off.
(kate, 23 January 2011 16:56)
--
You are right Kate, Westerners are finally hearing the other side of the story whether through their own media or Eastern media now available in the West. RT is on freeview in the UK.

Who would have thought something like this is now freely aired in the UK?

Check
http://rt.com/programs/documentary/israel-shaul-pollack-occupation/
http://rt.com/programs/documentary/israel-occupation-2-pollack/

This is a Western made documentary that has similarities to the way Serbians are treated in KiM.

Martin Graf is member of the Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ), a right-wing, anti-islamic movement which is known for its anti immigration and anti islamic policies. So before Serbs get euforic about an other European politician who has the courage to finally tell the "truth" (thus meaning the Serbian side of the story), do a background check first before making silly comments. This guy is as biased as one possibly can be, so everything coming out of his mouth schould be taken with a huge grain of salt.

@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax.

@Jovan,

Speaking about desperation...threats like "Wait till you loose your support...", or "wait till NATO leaves Kosovo..." or "wait till the Serbian police and army returns to Kosovo..." speak volumes about which side is really desperate. Now, my question for you is this: do you really think that making such threats, will even for a bit scare the Albanians? Are you actually that naive to think that this type of language will somehow impress us? Well, i got news for you: We are not afraid of you any more. These are not the ninenties and Milosevic is dead.

Amazing, and here i thought this wasnt about politizing anything, it was about 'justice'

So lets get this straight, the plan is, that this magical mysterious report will somehow Re-write reality in its entirety?

and what is "off the table" is every action taken by serbs that led to violence in the first place? It in fact didnt happen?

milosevic didnt exist.serbs theft of the constitutional rights, representation, and powers of kosovo in what was yugoslavia didnt happen. the use of force, terror and violence to enforce this action didnt happen. That serbs, preceding any of the violence that came as a result, attempted to use this theft of representation to gives themselves illegal and undo power over their fellow republics didnt Cause the nations breakup. a decade of serbs wholehearted support of this dictator and tyrant and his apartheid institutions simply didnt exist. That the poor misunderstood and victimized serbia actually remained untouched throughout yugoslavias breakup as they gleefully exported their violence to all their neighbors didnt happen. That serbs were the only common denominator throughout all of the violence, across the entire region, across all ethnic and religious lines is not true. On and and on and on it goes, that every single deliberate political and violent choice and action made by serbs, for serbs,cheered by serbs over the past few decades is not even worthy of acknowlegement or explanation.

not only do serbs not have to take a shred of responsibility for anything, anwhere, anytime.
this magical mystery report erases all of it, and shows that It was all a conspiracy by the west.
That any and all violence... even utter fiction take after the fact... erases everything before.

is that right? is that the plan?

If there is a genuine media left which is not just part of the establishment, I truly hope that they will now step forward and do their jobs and help these poor people and their families to find some peace. - Kate
Your entire post is excellent, Kate. Let's see how the world's mainstream media handles this but, I won't have my hopes too high, as I know the spin doctors are feverishly at work at trying to prevent any of the truth about the KLA coming out. How could they then explain backing them?

@ Flying Dutchman:

"@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax."

There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that Racak was staged by the KLA and various other parties. If you ever saw the Milosevic trial with regard to this, it was supported by photo evidence and testimony from an AFP camera crew who were there at the time.

That's not to say that terrible things did not happen, but Racak was clearly staged and presented by William Walker in order to support the launch of attacks on Serbia.

As for your attack on Graf, the times when anyone questioning the KLA could just be discounted are now over.

John, showing picture like that is horrible especially with no clear evidence of whom they are.

Whomever these victims were I regret that they have endured this horrible crime.

You have no idea how many pictures / TV-reports we have about the crimes the Serbs have commited to the Albanians and all of the people over the Balkans.

Albanians military brought back in closed and sealed couffins ripped apart, the poising of the water Prishtina, ...

Your crimes are unnumerous before and after the war of1 1999.

Kosova is free! With or without this report ... it will make no difference.

Tung

once again it should be pointed out that some western official is saying this.

very interesting, actually.


not only was it interesting to see that the Washington Post PRINTED the written critical attitude of a WP-journalist in contrast to the already well known forced-into-line-comments that are usually published...

now an EU-official is SAYING publicly something similar, ...and of course our dear k-albanian friends in here have nothing more to contribute than those poor attempts to belittle that as "serbian propaganda"... what is quite funny, given that they are constantly coming up with their illyrian phantasies here... =)

kids, do not think in that direction! it´s not about propaganda, it´s more about creating pressure on the Albanians.

and you WILL stand still if the "westerners" say so, because without them, you are LOST.

and deep inside, you know that.

and, that is only a question of time, until you lose support.

history is repeating, that is something you will have to cope with.

and that´s good.

oh, please, go on with these "serbian propaganda"-claims.

it makes me laugh constantly, since it shows that you do not have much more to bring forward than your desperate wishful thinking.

"I have the decency not to show here the pictures of the exterminated Berisha family where from 6-month baby up to the 90 year old elderly have been masacered."
JohnC

Berisha using civilians as hostages. And albanians call him a hero!

I would never dispute that terrible things were also done by Serbian paramilitaries and police, but the scale is not as represented in the Western media to justify the attack on Serbia. Racak was a clear lie as were many of the stories spun all over the media.

When that cockney used car salesman Shea was not making the grade on the Goebbels level, Blair dispatched Alastair Campbell to Brussels to show them how the former editor of porn mags and low life of the British gutter press could do the job admirably.

There were straight out lies told which cost the lives of many people and all of those leading these activities should be sent to the Hague.
(kate, 23 January 2011 12:56

I couldn't agree more with your comment.
The hounding of Milosevic by NATO and the subsequent bombing of Serbia's infrastructure punished the Serbian population.The average Serb was not involved in those terrible things much like the average Brit didn't take part in the murdering of children or civilians
in Iraq and Afganistan.So why punish them?

In restrospect i would've loved to see Milosevic still alive questioning his two chief witnesses Tony Bliar and Bill Clinton at the Hague tribunal, surely those two would never lie to their governments or to the British and American people.WOULD THEY?

It also seems to me that the dish of Albanian "self-victimisation" is not on EU's menu any longer.This is why we see people like Marty and Graf coming out and exposing the lies on which EU policy is formulated.

@JohnC: I agree that there are horribly disturbing images of massacred people from all ethnicities that could be posted. It's never ending.

The difference is that many photos were seen and published and stories told of murders by Serbians, but there were very few indeed of the victims of the KLA - no matter what ethnicity.

So it is fair and timeworthy to post stories and images in light of the Marty report. It is part of something previously unseen and currently newsworthy.

Personally, I would like to see the photo of proud KLA soldiers with the head of a decapitated Serbian soldier on the front pages of the Western press while their governments justify the actions of their 'allies' [ http://www.kosovo.net/kladecapit1.jpg ]

In various Western nations we degraded our troops into working alongside the KLA and paid our taxes towards their training. So why would it not be relevant?

@ Agim - I assume that you already sourced and read the same quote from the doctor before referring to it.

@ IUPM - Thanks!

JohnC, why did the KLA slaughter the Berisha family, that's an Albanian surname?

@Kate, So Racak was a lie? I assume you have some hard evidence to back up your claim? Please do not hasitate to share it with us. I am really curious to know on what basis you call the Racak massacre a hoax.

(The Flying Dutchman, 24 January 2011 01:50)

Forsenic tests by the Finno-Belorussian team showed that almost all the bodies had gunpowder residue on their hands, that their clothing had been changed, that none had been shot from close range and that the bodies had been moved Combined with The fact that one man who had been shot in the stomach lacked a hole in his clothing where the bullet should of entered, conflicting statements among the so called 'witnesses', The fact that the charges against Milosevic regarding Racak were dropped and testification from a Nato general (see link below) all proved that Racak was a hoax (theres also a very interesting documentry on that website about Racak, I would Advise you to watch it before making such judgements)

http://kosovoandmetohija.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12275806-nato-general-we-bombed-the-wrong-side

@the flying dutchman:

you didn´t get my point, my friend.

it´s not a threat, it´s a certainty. you guys keep writing down your wishful thinking here, be it the desperately needed " illyrian descent " ( needed for your own psyche ) or be it that " the one and only global super-power " ( that´s how another rather naive k-albanian kiddie has put it once )
is your " friend "...


they aren´t. and you will have to swallow that.


the bottom-line of my comment, that you didn´t understand, is: your little freak creation will come to an end. it´s only temporarily occupied serbian territory, and you may fool yourself now, but you won´t fool yourself forever.

no, my dear k-albanian dutchman... you don´t have to be afraid of Serbia, since all will be fine when the time has come for reintegration. you will even have some profit of that.

your attitude, interpreting each and every word coming from a Serb as a threat, by the way is quite typical for the usual mislead k-albanian who was raised from his youngest age with hatred against Serbs and their state, in on whose territory you actually live.

in the contrary my friend, that says much about you. so, don´t fool yourself by acting as if you are a psychologist, your comparison is quite cheesy though.

@John 
 
“Forsenic tests by the Finno-Belorussian team showed that almost all the bodies had gunpowder residue on their hands, that their clothing had been changed, that none had been shot from close range and that the bodies had been moved…”
 
Now, this is a striking example of what we Albanians call a "deliberate and vicious attempt to distort the facts and spin the truth". There was never a joint Finnish-Belarusian investigation into the killings of the 47 Albanian civilians. Why would you make such a false statement? There were only two, separate,  examination into the Racak massacre: an examination by a joint Serbian-Belarusian team and a forensic team from Finland(under the auspices of the European Union). The first team to carry out an autopsy on the bodies was the Serbian-Belarusian team, despite the great opposition of the Kosovo Verification Mission and ICTY who feared that the Serbs might mess up with or destroy the evidence, which later turned out to be exactly the case. As expected, the Serbia-Belarusian report stated that there was “no” evidence that the bodies were massacred and they even went that far to suggest that the bodies had been mutilated posthumously to ‘fabricate’ the appearance of an execution. The Finnish forensic team headed by Dr Helena Ranta found out quit the contrary stating that the dead were unarmed civilians and that they had been killed exactly at the place where they later were found. The claims that the dead had been killed wearing KLA uniforms which had then been replaced with civilian clothes, was categorically rejected, stating  that based on autopsy findings (e.g. bullet holes, coagulated blood) and photographs of the scenes, the clothes could not have been changed or removed.

Also the method used by the Serbian-Belarusian team to test for powder residue on the victims hands was widely criticized.  They used  paraffin eventhough it gives false positives because of many other substances, including fertilizers, tobacco, urine and cosmetics, and even provides false negatives on occasion. The parafin test is still used by the police of many countries who cannot afford more modern methods, but has been described since as early as 1967 as 'of no use scientifically.'

As for your link to the totally objective and completely unbiased website “Kosovo and Metohija” containing articles like “Racak hoax’, “KLA terror”, “NATO aggression” and video’s like“We bombed the wrong side” well…forgive me if I put more weight on the Finnish forensic report on this matter.
 
@Kate

So the Racak massacre did not happen, because an AFP cam crew said so? Is that what you describe as "plenty evidence"? What did they exactly testifie and what do these photo's show that is beyond any doubt that it was all staged by the KLA? Please Kate, post some links so I can see it for myself.

“It was a pro-Kosovo, pro-Albanian, pro-Croatian and pro-Slovenian policy, meaning that it was pointed against Serbia,” he added. “That is obvious now, and the report is a mirror for those who ran that biased policy, so they are uncomfortable with facing it,” Graf stressed.

Yeah and now america is starting to pay for it. Go read the reports on the internet for yourself. About how China's new stealth plane is using us technology that was reverse-engineered from the F-117 that was shot down by the Serbs. If you really do your research, you will learn how america had a shortage of predator observation planes when it tried to corner osama bin laden in tora bora in 2001 because it wasted most of them in the kosovo air assault. The Serbs shot down the predators, too.

@ Adam NYC - All of these stories and more have flooded the Western media for 20 years, and while there were terrible cases (on all sides) to be answered for, the amount of spin was incredible against Serbia.

That is the problem. If you build a house quickly but with shaky foundations then it will not last.

The 'internationals' may have used, I mean 'helped', the Kosovo Albanians to annex Serbian territory and obtain an independence which has no legal foundations for the future, but it was done using so much spin to achieve political ends!

It would have been better for independence seeking Kosovo Albanians not to have bought into the empty promises, quick 'solution' and moment in the spotlight. This actually did a great disservice to everyone.

I mean do you really believe that these 'humanitarian' politicians like Blair and Clinton actually give a sh*t about any of us? Everything is about money, land, oil and personal gain with those people. They don't care if people are poor, have jobs or can afford to feed their kids (unless it's in the press!).

It would be better all around if a new administration comes into being in Kosovo, and Belgrade and Pristina sort something out as a longterm solution.

Belgrade is unable to negotiate with Thaci, and he and all of the leaders and minions from all sides with blood on their hands should answer to their crimes at the Hague.

Why the Council of Europe debate is important:

http://www.transconflict.com/2011/01/a-dark-cloud-hangs-over-kosovo-231/

A little off topic, but I just had a look through the news archives and noticed that at least 95% of Pro-Albanian comments were written by 6 People (Koso, Demi, Agim Kelmendi, Freedom, Pejoni and Amer) and that they all follow a pattern of "Kosovo is free", "Theres No Evidence"(they deny evidence when its shown to them) "We are Illyrian".

You would think that with all the Albanian comments, you would expect similar numbers of Croatian/Bosniak/ Macedonian/Russian/Greek/Slovene commenters, as well as similar numbers of Albanian commenters on Tanjug or Serbianna (where there are very, very few), I suspect that these 6 are simply paid to attempt to spread their propoganda to the Serbian disporia as an attempt to create some dissidents (and fail miserably doing so).

Berisha is in Tirana, they want to throw him out.

Good luck with your graphic image. I can pull hundreds of those type of images from internet. where is that pic taken, somewhere in Burma,N.Korea,Somalia, etc...
you ought to be a shamed of yourself for pullinga stunt like that.
You best surgen in Serbia named Stankovic testified that is not possible at all that any organ harvesting and/or transplent ocurred in Albania. Why don't you listen to him what he has to say, but yet you listen to a poltician from Swiss alps.
(Agim Kelmendi, 23 January 2011 13:27)

Those are true photos and its very easy to discount your claim that they came from Somalia, Burma or North Korea.

Firstly The Picture Quality is far to good for cameras built in the 1950s, So they cant be Americans in North Korea (or Vietnam).

And Secondly they're White, meaning that they cant be Somalis, Burmese, Koreans, Cambodians, Vietnamesse.

What do you have to say for yourself?

". If you really do your research, you will learn how america had a shortage of predator observation planes when it tried to corner osama bin laden in tora bora in 2001 because it wasted most of them in the kosovo air assault. The Serbs shot down the predators, too.
(JohnBoy, 23 January 2011 21:03) "

There were a lot of UAV shot down, but very few Predators - the Brits, French, Germans and Italians also were flying such missions, each lost a couple to a few.

More and more interesting reading by the day. To think NATO has know about this all along. What a mess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/hashim-thaci-kosovo-organised-crime

Most of us knew the truth Zoran but what amazes me most is Tadic's insistence to take Sebia into this fascist discredited club called EU.It's about time Serbs have a wake up call and stop Tadic's machinations on its tracks.
(Leonidas, 23 January 2011 13:25)

EU is not written in stone, but getting out of the dark ages is.
Serbia is far too dynamic of a society to be under a Slavic yoke. There have been times in history when it appeared that Russia was taking Serbia under its wing. The historical sometimes relationship between Serbia and Russia was in essence artificial as was the East/West competition for control.
Its great potential for sane a rational living would be best met by joining the EU,given the lack of any real alternatives. Its days of striving to be a little fiefdom based on nationalism(like Montenegro,Croatia,Albania e.g.)is over.
Serbia has nothing to lose and everything to gain by joining the EU. Serbia is a multicultural society and her future is what is to be and not in what was.

(The Flying Dutchman, 25 January 2011 12:41)

Copied direct from wikipedia, I suggest you look at the sources, they are Albanian. It fails to note that one of the victims had a bullet wound in his arm, but there wasnt a hole his the shirt, and that the finnish team didnt release its findings until 2002, and when it did, it announced that the victims were KLA soldiers. The fact that you got the number of victims wrong aslo doesnt help your case.

dear k-albanian dutchman, you´ve made a great fuss about the allegedly biased serbo-belorussian forensic team, and the of course very much more credible finnish team of forensic experts.

well, I am astonished that you didn´t mention Dr.Helena Ranta, a leading member of that finnish team, that has made public statements which you as a k-albanian certainly would not like to hear.

but, after all, you are just another one of those who are writing only half of the truth, bending it so that it fits to your narrow view on these things.

as I have written it before, once the time has come, you will have to swallow the truth.

your propaganda-attempts are actually quite lousy. but keep trying.
seems like you still don´t get it.

Serbia will prevail.

As for your link to the totally objective and completely unbiased website “Kosovo and Metohija” containing articles like “Racak hoax’, “KLA terror”, “NATO aggression” and video’s like“We bombed the wrong side” well…forgive me if I put more weight on the Finnish forensic report on this matter.

@Kate

So the Racak massacre did not happen, because an AFP cam crew said so? Is that what you describe as "plenty evidence"? What did they exactly testifie and what do these photo's show that is beyond any doubt that it was all staged by the KLA? Please Kate, post some links so I can see it for myself.
(The Flying Dutchman, 25 January 2011 12:41)

Those arent articles, but documentries, videos and photographic evidence, had you clicked on them I wouldnt have to tell you that, The fact that your not even willing to view the evidence tells us alot about yourself. However, I am here to establish the truth, so here is your link http://kosovoandmetohija.webs.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12300872-racak-investigator

I would also recommend you view the Doco on the milosevic trial part 1 on the same website, some interesting things about Racak in there (Btw the charges were dropped eventually)