“Serbia shouldn’t support census in Kosovo”

It should not be supported because Kosovo today is ethnically cleaned territory. Serbs are violently driven out from it so census support by Serbia is not real at all.

A census should by carry on, to verify how many K-Albanians have really roots in Kosovo-Metohija (none, I think), and how many are settlers settled there by Mussolini (a lot of) and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most). Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land, Albanians are only colonisators, like French "Pied noirs" in Algeria.

Agim, you clearly are clueless regarding this issue. You have never looked at census data. Therefore your ignorance is detrimental here. If it's not ignorance, then you are bothering us here on purpose.

They were only 67% in 1961. That went up to 74% in 1971, then 77% in 1981. In 1991 they were overestimated by serbian authorities. You see, albanians doubled their population from about 600,000 to 1200,000 in that very short time - a symptom of African populations in the most miserable places in africa. So in 1991 they stated "oh supposedly there are 1500,000, for the projection said 300,000 additional per year. In reality an Albanian expert estimated them to be only about 1,000,000 in 1995.



A census is vital. I recommend that we do not be like bosniaks to boycot the census, or like albanians in 1991. A census simply says who lives where in what year.
The ethnic cleansing is well known - the census will only show that there are not 2 million albanians, and what the numbers of serbs are.
The best solution - albanians do the census for albanians, and serbs do the census for serbs. Not bad, I think?

Sorry but who asked Serbia for any help or their opinion? And whats with counting exile Serbs, there is no such thing, they left Kosovo as did Albanians in the 90's and that number is close to 600.000 Albanians living in diaspora and by including them you Serbs would be happy if you reach the number of 2% and as such propably losing all benefits of being a special minority so be careful what you wish.

The state secretary pointed out that the Kosovo Albanians boycotted the population census organized by Belgrade in 1991, so their number in Kosovo could only be approximately assessed.


Was not hard to assess, since Kosova always was over 90%Albanian.
By the way Oli, who cares what you think?
You were better of when you were an MP in Kosova parlament.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...

You see, albanians were breeding like rats back then - doubling their population from about 600,000 to 1200,000 in that very short time - a symptom of African populations in the most miserable places in africa.
(Lazar, 9 January 2011 17:59)

Yes, similarly to the Chinese rats and the African ones that Vuk visits to get support on the Kosovo issue...

But for some reason there are some posters here that think China is not one of the most miserable places in the world even though it doubled its population in the same timeframe (from the ‘60s to ‘00s). So either they or you must be wrong somewhere about the “miserable” part.

"My suggestion is that a regional census be carried out in all former Yugoslav countries except Slovenia, but including Albania"
This is a good idea.
@Agim
until the 1970 albanians where around 65% in Kosovo
and from the 1960 100k-200k Serbs and non Albanians left kosovo!
and in 1991 Albanians where 81%
And only now after ethnic cleansing 90%+!

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan)
-
Or else.... ?

Of course Oli doesn't want a factual census...somebody has gotta make lies about Kosovar minority refugees in Serbia. What's the number now Oli...400k? No, it's probably around 850K Kosovar Serbs.

A census should by carry on, to verify how many K-Albanians have really roots in Kosovo-Metohija (none, I think)
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

So this part is 0 out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



and how many are settlers settled there by Mussolini (a lot of)
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

How many is this "a lot of" out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most).
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

How many is this "the most" out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land, Albanians are only colonisators, like French "Pied noirs" in Algeria.
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!

Was not hard to assess, since Kosova always was over 90%Albanian.
(Agim Kelmendi, 9 January 2011 16:09)

Aha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo

"14th century

1330

The Dečani Charter from 1330 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)

2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)"

So much about "natural Albania" myth, too.

"Of course Oli doesn't want a factual census...somebody has gotta make lies about Kosovar minority refugees in Serbia. What's the number now Oli...400k? No, it's probably around 850K Kosovar Serbs."
KOSO

And how many of that inflated number were sent to Vojvodina to dilute further the ethnic composition there?
The funny thing is that since 1920 all types of Serbian governments sent a constant flow of Serbian settlers to Vojvodina to dilute the ethnic balance. They thought that regardless how low the percentage of Serbs will be in Kosovo Kosovo will always remain Serbian. Well, that was a big miscalculation.

iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)


What nonsense, Albania never existed as a nation state, it was always a vilyat under the Ottoman empire at best; not even to the level of Croatia which at least had a Sabor (parliament) under the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Why are you spreading lies about the ethnicity of the former Yugoslavia?

Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes and Serbs are South Slavs. They are not any other race you might like to argue.

For that matter there is no definitive proof that Albanians are Illyrian, in fact some Slavic Croatians claim to be Illyrian as well, pure falicy and fantasy.

You may be able to fool some illiterate Albanians with your historical garbage, but the truth cannot be changed no matter how much lies comes out of your mouth.

If you don't want to participate, don't. No one is forcing you so stop making it a big deal.

(Zoti, 11 January 2011 16:11)

The truth is that the only way the Serbs can refute the legitimacy of Albanian ethnicity in Kosova, Montenegro and FYROM is buy distorting the past, on the basis of unscientific and egoistically doctored speculations and suppositions. The only undisputable fact is that the Turks destroyed Albanian literacy to erase the Albanian cultural and historical heritage, in an effort to assimilate the Albanian population into the Muslim world. The Serbs did much of the same and even changed Albanian names by adding the suffix "vic" to Albanian last name (i.e Gjurai vs Gjurovich). Clearly the Albanians had to have an extremely strong national identity in order to survive five centuries of incessant oppression.
Fortunately for the Serbs and for all the Balkans, Europe has rejected oppressive dictatorship and ideology, vanifying the efforts of Milosevic to deal a fatal blow to the national aspirations of the Albanians.The pseudo intellectualism of some Serbs fails to meet the tests of human rights and dignity.

Serbian Ministry for Kosovo State Secretary Oliver Ivanović is a fantasy position of a foreign govt. he has been voted for and represents no one in kosovo, he has no authority legal or moral... the singular purpose...and publication... of his continuously unwarranted,unwanted and unsolicited opinions are appeals to the extremist minority within kosovo.

That being said... no doubt Serbia is terrified of any census in wich they cannot control the tally.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan, 9 January 2011 18:02)

And this relates to the Kosmet census how exactly?

"Serbs are violently driven out from it"
Nenad

Any statistics to prove it?
(Joe, 10 January 2011 15:46)

I can't pull out them for you on the short notice - but the story is 100% the same as with Erdély. The area was largely Serb (in Erdély: Hungarian) till about the same time, end of 17th century.

Both areas got "rid" of the autochon population for the same reason: Hapsburg mercenaries. The mountaineers (Albanian and Romanian tribes) begun to occupy the place.

Two names to mention:

#1: Giorgio Basta (a critical figure for the Hungarian tragedy - you may look up his ethnic background, by the way)

#2: Dr. Gábor Gyapai, my history teacher. I was blessed to have this gentleman as history teacher - may his memory and soul be blessed, one of the best guys ever, the superman of history and science and a great character.

You can google on him, too - even after passing away he has countless admirers, my wife and myself included. We were lucky to have him as our teacher.

If you are really interested and in details - feel free to be my guest, let's drive to Szentendre and walk the Serbian museum there.

----

So? Who cares who lived where 700 years ago anyway...
(iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)

Okay - than why it's rare an Albanian here who does fail to tell us stories about Dardanian Empire from 4000 year ago?!?

Let's use the same logic: who lived where 700 years ago should be only of historic interest, not relevant politically. Same applies to earlier time. We are here and now with the problems to solve what can't be solved with the 700 year old (or 4000 year old) logic.

That erases the entire "natural Albania" (or Greater Romania) and pretty much equals Enver Hoxha to Ceauºescu.

Isn't it interesting, how similar are both dictators, by the way?

--

in Albania for instance many small medieval churches still survive, and not strangely they are located on the top of the closest hill of the village..in pagan times the top of the hills or mountains and some strange large cliffs were a common cult...also, the middle ages concept is different from 19th century nationalsim
(iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)

Yes, this part is not to object at all. Here I need a serious help (no joking!) because I want to visit these little-known churches in Albania later this spring. I do know well, they DO exist and quite a few did survived the Hoxha-insanity. But the "usual" guide books are mum about them presumably because the authors did not put enough effort and these do not look that "important". Very difficult to dig out information. Please provide some links where they are. Mostly what I am interested in are the early frescoes - thanks.

..and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most). Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land..."
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

Try to find some facts, Lazar posted some good statistics: Already 67% Albanians in Kosovo in 1961. Guesses are that even in the year 1912, the Albanians formed a (small) majority.

Maybe the fact should be seen that "northern Kosovo" where even nowadays Serbs are the majority has been 'added' to Kosovo only to ethnically balance the population. So, in 'core Kosovo', there probably have been a significant Albanian majority since a long time.

Hey jez your common sense department must be still out on vacay after (Orthodox) Christmas. Do you really think they took accurate census in 14th century? Has it also occurred to you that people often hid themselves and claimed different ethnicity specifically for their own protection?

''1330

The Dečani Charter from 1330 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)

2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)"

So much about "natural Albania" myth, too.
(Je¿ deczanski, 10 January 2011 00:16) ''

So? Who cares who lived where 700 years ago anyway...plus, you do not realise that all you do is prove the Albanian approach...it is quite normal that there were only 3 albanian households...slavs in middle ages where an agricultural society, they would settle in fertile lands, and then leave when the fertility was exhausted... if you look at the geography , slavs are mostly spread in fields, that is probaly why romania didn't assimilate, exception are the bosnians, croats and montenegrins, actually croats bosnians and montenegrins amase me, they have not much in common with other slavs, genetically they are the least slavic as well...in ottoman period commerce flourished in Kosovo, that is how Albanians probably spread more, but if we look back in Roman period the barracks were mostly deployed in what is today Nish and Presevo, which was prior to slavic flood...german maps of early 19th century show a strong Albanian presence in what is today Nish and Presevo compared to the ethnic configuration in kosovo field...also, when you talk about kosovo, you should note that kosovo in midlle ages was just the field of kosovo (which is 1000 km2) while Kosovo of today is a political entity of 10 000 km2 which inclues the Dukagjini, Sharri and other mountains, which were Albanian strongholds during not just in middle ages, but even romans of 3rd century meantioned Albanians(which is the area of today Kosovo, North Albania, and western fyrom)...what you call metohija , is not kosovo of middle ages, the reason churchs were built there was because they used to be sacred pagan areas in the antiquity, so in order to spread religion it was a common practice to built churchs, in Albania for instance many small medieval churches still survive, and not strangely they are located on the top of the closest hill of the village..in pagan times the top of the hills or mountains and some strange large cliffs were a common cult...also, the middle ages concept is different from 19th century nationalsim, serbian ''glorious'' kingdom did not last more than 5 years, once it reached the peak it dissolved very soon, actually Albanian princes were more happy with the serbian kingdom back than with the roman byzantines, serbian kingdom and bulgarian tsardom were kinda more ''liberal'' than the byzantines, Albanian back in the middle agaes even supported the Bulgarian king against byzantines...when studying history, we should consider the concept of time and space, back in middle ages there were not defined borders and the population was far less denser... also, the statehoods back than did not care much wether their dependicies were albanian or serbian, i m actually amased that serbian king took the effort to do an ''ethnic'' census...back then people were ientified mostly by tribes and deeds, or proffesions. A king ''sent by christ'' and given''heavenly powers'' would not give a damn wether his depencies spoke chinese or serbian back then. Back then, in the balkans, probably Albanian princes had closest ties with their simple people...that is why when Progon proclaimed the Albanian Kingdom in 1190 , he did not ask blessing of the Pope, he didn't need a pope to tell his people that ''he'' was ''blessed'' by heavenly powers to rule them...

Show me where Kosovo has "always" been a part of Serbia and then we can start a debate.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 21:59)

Please show me an elaborate building in Kosovo erected by Albanians beyond reasonable doubt and before Decani. Few stones supposed to be built by Illyrians whose language is not even known does not count. The debate not even started - it's already finished. Where it ends is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages

"The Illyrian languages were likely extinct between the 2nd and 6th centuries AD"

also:

"Today, the main source of authoritative information about the Illyrian language consists of a handful of Illyrian words cited in classical sources, and numerous examples of Illyrian anthroponyms, ethnonyms, toponyms and hydronyms"

Pay attention to:

"In the absence of sufficient lexical data and texts written in the Illyrian languages, the theories supporting the Centum character of the Illyrian language have been based mainly on the Centum character of the Venetic language"

versus:

"However, it has been shown that even in Albanian and Balto-Slavic, which are Satem languages, in this phonetical position the palatovelars have been generally depalatized"

C'mon - we don't even know, was Illyrian a Centum or Satem - likely Centum. But we know, Albanian is Satem.

Unless, of course Serbs turned Wikipedia around just to chase you away from Kosovo for what you don't even have a native Albanian word. Reminds me Romanians in Transylvania - there is no Romanian word for that area in Romanian language. Everyone calls it either in Latin (Transylvania) or in Slavonic ("Seven Castles") or like Serbs - Hungarian way (Erdelj or Erdély). Where the hack is Daco-Romanian word for Transylvania and Albanian word for Kosovo - collective amnesia?

I know that for you Hungarians and the Serbs your "history" starts when you settled in today's Europe. You were just "barbarians" before that so convenientli your forget that part of your history.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 21:59)
======================

How far back in history do you want to go?
Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1)
-
lol, sure.


>You're not the only who can play that game.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan, 9 January 2011 18:02)
=========================

Or else what? What are you threatening Serbia with?

"Serbs are violently driven out from it"
Nenad

Any statistics to prove it?

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.
(Joe, 10 January 2011 22:36)
======================

So the ethnically cleansed ones don't matter. They will never return, ha?

"Hey jez your common sense department must be still out on vacay after (Orthodox) Christmas. Do you really think they took accurate census in 14th century? Has it also occurred to you that people often hid themselves and claimed different ethnicity specifically for their own protection?
KOSO

Also who cares how it was not 2-300 years ago but even 50 years ago? The current logic worldwide is how is it TODAY. With the current evolution ethnic in Kosovo it is possible that in 10 years the Serbs will make up only 2% of the population.

Seems like the education system in Serbia keeps failing students generation after generation.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 19:17)

Poor comment, Zoti: the Albanian history and math education is lightyears beyond Hungarian. I am very sorry that Mr. Gábor Gyapai is no more alive to write an argument, but his pupils are around.

Poor comment, Zoti: the Albanian history and math education is lightyears beyond Hungarian. I am very sorry that Mr. Gábor Gyapai is no more alive to write an argument, but his pupils are around.
(Je¿ atamañski, 10 January 2011)

Apologies Ataman, I didn't know I was dealing with an ignorant Hungarian instead of an illiterate Serb.
Show me where Kosovo has "always" been a part of Serbia and then we can start a debate. Even Serbia proper wasn't "always" part of Serbia.
I know that for you Hungarians and the Serbs your "history" starts when you settled in today's Europe. You were just "barbarians" before that so convenientli your forget that part of your history.

"Why are you spreading lies about the ethnicity of the former Yugoslavia?

Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes and Serbs are South Slavs. They are not any other race you might like to argue.

For that matter there is no definitive proof that Albanians are Illyrian, in fact some Slavic Croatians claim to be Illyrian as well, pure falicy and fantasy.

You may be able to fool some illiterate Albanians with your historical garbage, but the truth cannot be changed no matter how much lies comes out of your mouth."
Jugoslavija

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.
(Joe, 10 January 2011 22:36)

Are you reading the same post?

He tries to explain the so called Albanian population in Kosovo and Metohia and quoting completely inaccurate historical statements and I paraphrase;

IE: 'The Serbian Kingdom during the middle ages only lasted five year's'

In fact, the Nemenaja dynasty lasted for 3 centuries with over 14 rulers and many of the churches monasteries are named after those rulers, the greatest of course being Tsar Dushan. There is a reason Kosovo is called the land of the churches, something the Albanian extremist groups would like to eliminate by engaging in the most disgusting crime a livng human can do, purposely desecrating a gravesite and destroying holy sites.


If you still dont' get the point this might help you;

(1) Jon Hunyadi was a Albanian who helped defend Belgrade.

Jon Hunyadi was Hungarian who led the Christian army to victory over the Ottoman empire and Mehmed II defending Belgrade .

(2) Buda was named and founded by Serbs.

The name was take from the Hun leader Bleda who's name is Buda in Hungarian.


Doesn't feel so good when someone spreads lies about the history of one's nation particulary when Kosovo and Methohia is the founding nation of Serbia.

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1, 9 January 2011)

No, when a Serbian says "always" he means from the time his forefathers came from Siberia in the VII century.
Also the Albanian run Kosovo vilayet under the Ootomans was somehow part of Serbia. Seems like the education system in Serbia keeps failing students generation after generation.

@zoti
show us just one Albanian source from prior to the 19th century that claims you are "illyrian", you will never find one as it does not exist. The illyrian claim was first made by croats and serbs, see "the illyrian movement", the fact is that the people of the balkans are made up of various groups who have lived there for thousands of years.

Jugo...first of all major *facepalm*

Kosovars --> Albanian (~93%) --> Illyrian from Dardania state/region.

Illyria was composed of different kingdom/tribes such as ILIR, TAULANT, ALBANI, etc (I can't remember the English equivalencies). There are other non-Albanian but ILLYRIAN kingdoms...hence why the Croatians (trying to sever any ties to you Serbs) stated they are from.

''Let's use the same logic: who lived where 700 years ago should be only of historic interest, not relevant politically. Same applies to earlier time. We are here and now with the problems to solve what can't be solved with the 700 year old (or 4000 year old) logic.

That erases the entire "natural Albania" (or Greater Romania) and pretty much equals Enver Hoxha to Ceauºescu.
''

You are missing the point, ''natural albania'' is not about illyrians or anything mythical...because if it were about ''illyrians''that would mean that we would have to take back ''our illyrian'' lands, which lie from ambrakia to istria, which is ...half of balkans and that would make us fall to same insane level as serbs....natural albania is merely about securing the survival of the Albanian nation,it is self defence in rough words, the last century experience showed us that our neighbouring countries intend to , if not assimilate albanians , ethnically cleanse them, so, this is not a matter of ''historical right'' , it is about pure survival of our nation, people and culture. If our neighbours all they do is deprive us from basic human rights and even the right to live, than we have the legal right to take things in our hands...hence United Albania.

I do not think you despise Hoxha as much as i do , he was the greatest traitor Albania has ever had, Hoxha did not teach Albanians anything, he sold Kosovo out and for 50 years he tried to teach that albanian socialist and yugoslav, chinese and soviet socialists are brothers etc, it was the reawakening teachings of 19th century, which was characterized by a secular and even anti religious feeling that coincided with what Hoxha wanted, a marxist atheist Albania...that's how Hoxha managed to get rid of religion, Hoxha did not praise nationalism, he had to remind people of 19th century in order to achieve his own goal, all he had to do was remind Albanians what happened to early 20th century, their memories were still fresh, so...also, you miss the fact that ''united Albania'' idea was popular among diaspora and former yugoslav albanians, especially in 1980s, and many albanians in former jugoslavia, believed that a united albania was what hoxha wanted and they admired Hoxha for that, because Hoxha was a talkative person, Albanians in diaspora would listen to his speeches about ''the world being against albanians'' and would feel that Hoxha was right judging the fact that they were being opressed in yugoslaviaja and forced to spread around the globe...serbian propaganda on the other side, was saying that Hoxha, an antagonist and dictator leader , wanted to ''annex'' their territories and even give him the credit as the founder of albanian nationalism....Albanian nationalism emerged in early 19th century, more precissely in 1826 , saying ''greater albania'' was the idea of Enver Hoxha, is pure ignorance, what serbs know as greater Albania and Albanians know as Ethnic Albania, is the territories that our reawakening intelectuals of 19th century envisioned to become included in a single and indipendent Albanian state...

How far back in history do you want to go? Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.
(Peggy, 11 January 2011)

It is well documented that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century. No shadow of doubt, so Serbia "always" ownign Kosova is completely out of the question. The land in today's Kosova was once called Dardania and was inhabited by Illyrians. Illyrians are considered by most reputable historians to be the ancestors of modern day Albanians. Even if you disagree with most historians, which would not surprise me in th eleast, please feel free to show me proof at the Albanians' arrival in the Balkans. There are other autochtonous people in the Balkans, like the Vlachs, who are well documented to have lived in the area longer than the Slavs and today they have nothing to show for it. Zilch. It doesn't mean that they haven't lived herebefore the Slavs though.
As for evidence of the Albanian's ownership of Kosova just go there today and you'll see for yourself.





Please show me an elaborate building in Kosovo erected by Albanians beyond reasonable doubt and before Decani. Few stones supposed to be built by Illyrians whose language is not even known does not count. The debate not even started - it's already finished.
(Je¿ Magyarok, 11 January 2011)

Ataman why is it that newcomers like you Magyars and the Serbs insist of disputing our origins? Could it be because you haven't sorted out yours yet?
Sort out your own mess first then concentrate on us.

''You have taken it from us, Serbs, not the other way around. Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone. I would like to see those maps of yours before Serbian settlement showing that Kosovo was yours. ''

Ok, we took it from serbs... so?

'' Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone.''

Please. Gotta admit, though, prior to slavic flood, no one could see Kosovo, serbs, far greter explorers than Colombus, discovered it for first time.

''Now, stop diverting and please show us some proof of Albanians being the owners of Kosovo BEFORE Serbs arrived. ''

It is like asking a man standing right in front of you evidence to show you that he is alive...the presence of Albanians in balkans is a proof that we were in kosovo before serbs arrived...that is enough for me at least. But if you need proper answers, you need to ask or refer to proffesional historians, and scholars...not from a post comment corner.

Oh, talking about Illyrians again? Aren't you people tired of repeating the same things over and over?

Back to the article, the best part in my opinion is when he says:
"My suggestion is that a regional census be carried out in all former Yugoslav countries except Slovenia, but including Albania. That is the only way to conduct a relevant census which, under a careful supervision of the international community, may provide the data useful to all Western Balkan countries"

that is never. He is proposing some sort of coordination on census between Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, and this entity called "international community", which is itself divided in 200 thousand groups of interest. Good luck on that. I think he just wants to be opposed to anything coming from this side of the border. In my opinion census data about Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo would be useful to Serbia too, to better "fight for its rights in Kosovo", you know your targets better and focus your tools, economic, incentives, propaganda etc etc, maximize your outcome. But no, he just has to oppose and tries to look constructive by suggesting something that is just impossible.

The Flying Dutchman, 11 January 2011 18:31

Don´t smoke and fly.

..the presence of Albanians in balkans is a proof that we were in kosovo before serbs arrived...
==============================

This does not make any sense at all.
How so?
I keep asking for proof of your ownership of Kosovo before Serbs settled there and you cannot come up with a shred of any evidence and yet you keep claiming how Serbs took it from you.

Please, tell me when, how and where is this evidence of you being owners of Kosovo. What do you think happened? Serbs came, killed you and took Kosovo by force?
All I want is your version of what happened there.

Peggy since you seem so well-versed in Serbian history do you agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century?

If you do then please explain to me how did you get it from the natives? I'm assuming that there were native people living there and there were no Albanians in Kosova at all in the VII century for the discussion's sake.
=======================

Yes I agree with you that Serbs settled in Kosovo then but please do tell me what was your society like there back then. Did Serbs start a war with you and took Kosovo by force. How many of you were there and was Kosovo a defined country on the map with Albanians in charge?

I am really interested in your answers to this.

Ataman why is it that newcomers like you Magyars and the Serbs insist of disputing our origins? Could it be because you haven't sorted out yours yet?
Sort out your own mess first then concentrate on us.
(Zoti, 11 January 2011 16:11)
======================

Our history is not messy and is well documented. Now, stop diverting and please show us some proof of Albanians being the owners of Kosovo BEFORE Serbs arrived. If you can show us some evidence then yes I will agree that you had ownership of that land before us but since you cannot show anything then you really cannot claim it. Sure, there is a majority of Albanians there now but that's not what this discussion is about. You have taken it from us, Serbs, not the other way around. Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone. I would like to see those maps of yours before Serbian settlement showing that Kosovo was yours.

Stop talking rubbish. Being a majority there now DOES NOT ENTITLE you to it. Why can't you just get that?

Stop talking rubbish. Being a majority there now DOES NOT ENTITLE you to it. Why can't you just get that?
(Peggy, 12 January 2011) \

Peggy since you seem so well-versed in Serbian history do you agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century?

If you do then please explain to me how did you get it from the natives? I'm assuming that there were native people living there and there were no Albanians in Kosova at all in the VII century for the discussion's sake.

Why is entitled Kosova to you who came to the region in VII century and not to the majority of the people living there now?

If you don't agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century then I believe any further conversation on this issue is futile.

''Please, tell me when, how and where is this evidence of you being owners of Kosovo. What do you think happened? Serbs came, killed you and took Kosovo by force?
All I want is your version of what happened there.''

I m not a historian, all i know in technical terms is that back then , south of danube was Roman Empire, we albanians were part of roman empire, and willingly or not, we were integrated into roman empire, Emperors during that period ,when barabrian hordes attacked the empire, even resided in Durres from time to time in order to escape barabrian raids, one of the earliest universities was founded in durres, about 11 emperors were illyrian, in history it is known as illyrian soldier period, like every single european people we bare roman legacy ,wether we like it or not, back in in 7th century, there was no other political border besides Roman borders, we, Albanians were inside the roman borders, slavs were outside, simple, what you call Kosovo, did not exist in 7th century, that part was divided among moesia, macedonia and illyricum, which were roman prefectures, so technically serbs killed who ever was on their way and settled, simple as that. Native people of balkans are Albanians, Greeks and Romanians, we like it or not slavs settled later...the reason that back then there is no documentation in ALbnaian language is because the language of the empire was Latin and Greek, what we call slavic langauge was not written either in that period, slavonic church language was written by a couple of greek priests who wanted to spread christianity among bulgarians...actaully being identified as greek back then was equivalent to ''anti-christian'' ''heretic'' ''infedel'' or simply ''pagan'' but this is another story, my point is that greeks, albanians, romanians, identified themselves as romans in documentation forms, let's say an albanian during roman period had to write a CV to apply for a job, he would either write it in latin or in greek, the fact that i m posting this message in english does not make an english...romanians were latinized because most of roman legions were deployed there during slavic and barbaric floods, so they assimilated by proportion of number soldiers to local population ...

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1)
-
lol, sure.


>You're not the only who can play that game.
(trudsaam, 10 January 2011 00:26)

I'm not playing that game because I have no idea or proof how long bacteria, algae, dinosaurs, chimpanzees, Serbs or Albanians have lived in Kosovo. But some others appears to have the proof that Serbs have always (i.e. 5,000,000,000 years) in Kosovo.

How far back in history do you want to go?
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

Up to the origins… once you start going back there is no reason to stop here and there



Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

Well, science has proved that before Serbs there were only bacteria in Kosovo for a large chunk of the history (thousands times longer than the 700 years pretended by Serbs), I agree to follow your approach and return Kosovo to bacteria.



If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

This is another good point. Do the Serbs have the land deeds signed by those who owned that land before the Serbs (unless of course Serbs have always been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years). I’d love to see those deeds that Serbs have from the prior owners !!!

A census should by carry on, to verify how many K-Albanians have really roots in Kosovo-Metohija (none, I think), and how many are settlers settled there by Mussolini (a lot of) and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most). Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land, Albanians are only colonisators, like French "Pied noirs" in Algeria.

The state secretary pointed out that the Kosovo Albanians boycotted the population census organized by Belgrade in 1991, so their number in Kosovo could only be approximately assessed.


Was not hard to assess, since Kosova always was over 90%Albanian.
By the way Oli, who cares what you think?
You were better of when you were an MP in Kosova parlament.

Sorry but who asked Serbia for any help or their opinion? And whats with counting exile Serbs, there is no such thing, they left Kosovo as did Albanians in the 90's and that number is close to 600.000 Albanians living in diaspora and by including them you Serbs would be happy if you reach the number of 2% and as such propably losing all benefits of being a special minority so be careful what you wish.

Agim, you clearly are clueless regarding this issue. You have never looked at census data. Therefore your ignorance is detrimental here. If it's not ignorance, then you are bothering us here on purpose.

They were only 67% in 1961. That went up to 74% in 1971, then 77% in 1981. In 1991 they were overestimated by serbian authorities. You see, albanians doubled their population from about 600,000 to 1200,000 in that very short time - a symptom of African populations in the most miserable places in africa. So in 1991 they stated "oh supposedly there are 1500,000, for the projection said 300,000 additional per year. In reality an Albanian expert estimated them to be only about 1,000,000 in 1995.



A census is vital. I recommend that we do not be like bosniaks to boycot the census, or like albanians in 1991. A census simply says who lives where in what year.
The ethnic cleansing is well known - the census will only show that there are not 2 million albanians, and what the numbers of serbs are.
The best solution - albanians do the census for albanians, and serbs do the census for serbs. Not bad, I think?

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...

"My suggestion is that a regional census be carried out in all former Yugoslav countries except Slovenia, but including Albania"
This is a good idea.
@Agim
until the 1970 albanians where around 65% in Kosovo
and from the 1960 100k-200k Serbs and non Albanians left kosovo!
and in 1991 Albanians where 81%
And only now after ethnic cleansing 90%+!

You see, albanians were breeding like rats back then - doubling their population from about 600,000 to 1200,000 in that very short time - a symptom of African populations in the most miserable places in africa.
(Lazar, 9 January 2011 17:59)

Yes, similarly to the Chinese rats and the African ones that Vuk visits to get support on the Kosovo issue...

But for some reason there are some posters here that think China is not one of the most miserable places in the world even though it doubled its population in the same timeframe (from the ‘60s to ‘00s). So either they or you must be wrong somewhere about the “miserable” part.

A census should by carry on, to verify how many K-Albanians have really roots in Kosovo-Metohija (none, I think)
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

So this part is 0 out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



and how many are settlers settled there by Mussolini (a lot of)
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

How many is this "a lot of" out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most).
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

How many is this "the most" out of the current 2,000,000 Albanians in Kosovo



Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land, Albanians are only colonisators, like French "Pied noirs" in Algeria.
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!

Of course Oli doesn't want a factual census...somebody has gotta make lies about Kosovar minority refugees in Serbia. What's the number now Oli...400k? No, it's probably around 850K Kosovar Serbs.

Serbian Ministry for Kosovo State Secretary Oliver Ivanović is a fantasy position of a foreign govt. he has been voted for and represents no one in kosovo, he has no authority legal or moral... the singular purpose...and publication... of his continuously unwarranted,unwanted and unsolicited opinions are appeals to the extremist minority within kosovo.

That being said... no doubt Serbia is terrified of any census in wich they cannot control the tally.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan)
-
Or else.... ?

It should not be supported because Kosovo today is ethnically cleaned territory. Serbs are violently driven out from it so census support by Serbia is not real at all.

If you don't want to participate, don't. No one is forcing you so stop making it a big deal.

..and how many came from Albania after 1991 (the most). Kosovo-Metohija was always Serbian land..."
(Grzegorz, 9 January 2011 19:46)

Try to find some facts, Lazar posted some good statistics: Already 67% Albanians in Kosovo in 1961. Guesses are that even in the year 1912, the Albanians formed a (small) majority.

Maybe the fact should be seen that "northern Kosovo" where even nowadays Serbs are the majority has been 'added' to Kosovo only to ethnically balance the population. So, in 'core Kosovo', there probably have been a significant Albanian majority since a long time.

"Of course Oli doesn't want a factual census...somebody has gotta make lies about Kosovar minority refugees in Serbia. What's the number now Oli...400k? No, it's probably around 850K Kosovar Serbs."
KOSO

And how many of that inflated number were sent to Vojvodina to dilute further the ethnic composition there?
The funny thing is that since 1920 all types of Serbian governments sent a constant flow of Serbian settlers to Vojvodina to dilute the ethnic balance. They thought that regardless how low the percentage of Serbs will be in Kosovo Kosovo will always remain Serbian. Well, that was a big miscalculation.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan, 9 January 2011 18:02)
=========================

Or else what? What are you threatening Serbia with?

Poor comment, Zoti: the Albanian history and math education is lightyears beyond Hungarian. I am very sorry that Mr. Gábor Gyapai is no more alive to write an argument, but his pupils are around.
(Je¿ atamañski, 10 January 2011)

Apologies Ataman, I didn't know I was dealing with an ignorant Hungarian instead of an illiterate Serb.
Show me where Kosovo has "always" been a part of Serbia and then we can start a debate. Even Serbia proper wasn't "always" part of Serbia.
I know that for you Hungarians and the Serbs your "history" starts when you settled in today's Europe. You were just "barbarians" before that so convenientli your forget that part of your history.

Hey jez your common sense department must be still out on vacay after (Orthodox) Christmas. Do you really think they took accurate census in 14th century? Has it also occurred to you that people often hid themselves and claimed different ethnicity specifically for their own protection?

"Serbs are violently driven out from it"
Nenad

Any statistics to prove it?

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1, 9 January 2011)

No, when a Serbian says "always" he means from the time his forefathers came from Siberia in the VII century.
Also the Albanian run Kosovo vilayet under the Ootomans was somehow part of Serbia. Seems like the education system in Serbia keeps failing students generation after generation.

"Why are you spreading lies about the ethnicity of the former Yugoslavia?

Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes and Serbs are South Slavs. They are not any other race you might like to argue.

For that matter there is no definitive proof that Albanians are Illyrian, in fact some Slavic Croatians claim to be Illyrian as well, pure falicy and fantasy.

You may be able to fool some illiterate Albanians with your historical garbage, but the truth cannot be changed no matter how much lies comes out of your mouth."
Jugoslavija

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.

''Let's use the same logic: who lived where 700 years ago should be only of historic interest, not relevant politically. Same applies to earlier time. We are here and now with the problems to solve what can't be solved with the 700 year old (or 4000 year old) logic.

That erases the entire "natural Albania" (or Greater Romania) and pretty much equals Enver Hoxha to Ceauºescu.
''

You are missing the point, ''natural albania'' is not about illyrians or anything mythical...because if it were about ''illyrians''that would mean that we would have to take back ''our illyrian'' lands, which lie from ambrakia to istria, which is ...half of balkans and that would make us fall to same insane level as serbs....natural albania is merely about securing the survival of the Albanian nation,it is self defence in rough words, the last century experience showed us that our neighbouring countries intend to , if not assimilate albanians , ethnically cleanse them, so, this is not a matter of ''historical right'' , it is about pure survival of our nation, people and culture. If our neighbours all they do is deprive us from basic human rights and even the right to live, than we have the legal right to take things in our hands...hence United Albania.

I do not think you despise Hoxha as much as i do , he was the greatest traitor Albania has ever had, Hoxha did not teach Albanians anything, he sold Kosovo out and for 50 years he tried to teach that albanian socialist and yugoslav, chinese and soviet socialists are brothers etc, it was the reawakening teachings of 19th century, which was characterized by a secular and even anti religious feeling that coincided with what Hoxha wanted, a marxist atheist Albania...that's how Hoxha managed to get rid of religion, Hoxha did not praise nationalism, he had to remind people of 19th century in order to achieve his own goal, all he had to do was remind Albanians what happened to early 20th century, their memories were still fresh, so...also, you miss the fact that ''united Albania'' idea was popular among diaspora and former yugoslav albanians, especially in 1980s, and many albanians in former jugoslavia, believed that a united albania was what hoxha wanted and they admired Hoxha for that, because Hoxha was a talkative person, Albanians in diaspora would listen to his speeches about ''the world being against albanians'' and would feel that Hoxha was right judging the fact that they were being opressed in yugoslaviaja and forced to spread around the globe...serbian propaganda on the other side, was saying that Hoxha, an antagonist and dictator leader , wanted to ''annex'' their territories and even give him the credit as the founder of albanian nationalism....Albanian nationalism emerged in early 19th century, more precissely in 1826 , saying ''greater albania'' was the idea of Enver Hoxha, is pure ignorance, what serbs know as greater Albania and Albanians know as Ethnic Albania, is the territories that our reawakening intelectuals of 19th century envisioned to become included in a single and indipendent Albanian state...

Jugo...first of all major *facepalm*

Kosovars --> Albanian (~93%) --> Illyrian from Dardania state/region.

Illyria was composed of different kingdom/tribes such as ILIR, TAULANT, ALBANI, etc (I can't remember the English equivalencies). There are other non-Albanian but ILLYRIAN kingdoms...hence why the Croatians (trying to sever any ties to you Serbs) stated they are from.

(Zoti, 11 January 2011 16:11)

The truth is that the only way the Serbs can refute the legitimacy of Albanian ethnicity in Kosova, Montenegro and FYROM is buy distorting the past, on the basis of unscientific and egoistically doctored speculations and suppositions. The only undisputable fact is that the Turks destroyed Albanian literacy to erase the Albanian cultural and historical heritage, in an effort to assimilate the Albanian population into the Muslim world. The Serbs did much of the same and even changed Albanian names by adding the suffix "vic" to Albanian last name (i.e Gjurai vs Gjurovich). Clearly the Albanians had to have an extremely strong national identity in order to survive five centuries of incessant oppression.
Fortunately for the Serbs and for all the Balkans, Europe has rejected oppressive dictatorship and ideology, vanifying the efforts of Milosevic to deal a fatal blow to the national aspirations of the Albanians.The pseudo intellectualism of some Serbs fails to meet the tests of human rights and dignity.

Was not hard to assess, since Kosova always was over 90%Albanian.
(Agim Kelmendi, 9 January 2011 16:09)

Aha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo

"14th century

1330

The Dečani Charter from 1330 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)

2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)"

So much about "natural Albania" myth, too.

Serbia needs to arrest Ratko Mladic and Goran Hadzic or else...
(ivan, 9 January 2011 18:02)

And this relates to the Kosmet census how exactly?

"Hey jez your common sense department must be still out on vacay after (Orthodox) Christmas. Do you really think they took accurate census in 14th century? Has it also occurred to you that people often hid themselves and claimed different ethnicity specifically for their own protection?
KOSO

Also who cares how it was not 2-300 years ago but even 50 years ago? The current logic worldwide is how is it TODAY. With the current evolution ethnic in Kosovo it is possible that in 10 years the Serbs will make up only 2% of the population.

''1330

The Dečani Charter from 1330 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia contained a detailed list of households and chartered villages in Metohija and northwestern Albania. 89 settlements with 2,666 households were recorded of which:

86 Serbian settlements (96,6%)
3 Albanian settlements (3,3%)

2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households:

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)"

So much about "natural Albania" myth, too.
(Je¿ deczanski, 10 January 2011 00:16) ''

So? Who cares who lived where 700 years ago anyway...plus, you do not realise that all you do is prove the Albanian approach...it is quite normal that there were only 3 albanian households...slavs in middle ages where an agricultural society, they would settle in fertile lands, and then leave when the fertility was exhausted... if you look at the geography , slavs are mostly spread in fields, that is probaly why romania didn't assimilate, exception are the bosnians, croats and montenegrins, actually croats bosnians and montenegrins amase me, they have not much in common with other slavs, genetically they are the least slavic as well...in ottoman period commerce flourished in Kosovo, that is how Albanians probably spread more, but if we look back in Roman period the barracks were mostly deployed in what is today Nish and Presevo, which was prior to slavic flood...german maps of early 19th century show a strong Albanian presence in what is today Nish and Presevo compared to the ethnic configuration in kosovo field...also, when you talk about kosovo, you should note that kosovo in midlle ages was just the field of kosovo (which is 1000 km2) while Kosovo of today is a political entity of 10 000 km2 which inclues the Dukagjini, Sharri and other mountains, which were Albanian strongholds during not just in middle ages, but even romans of 3rd century meantioned Albanians(which is the area of today Kosovo, North Albania, and western fyrom)...what you call metohija , is not kosovo of middle ages, the reason churchs were built there was because they used to be sacred pagan areas in the antiquity, so in order to spread religion it was a common practice to built churchs, in Albania for instance many small medieval churches still survive, and not strangely they are located on the top of the closest hill of the village..in pagan times the top of the hills or mountains and some strange large cliffs were a common cult...also, the middle ages concept is different from 19th century nationalsim, serbian ''glorious'' kingdom did not last more than 5 years, once it reached the peak it dissolved very soon, actually Albanian princes were more happy with the serbian kingdom back than with the roman byzantines, serbian kingdom and bulgarian tsardom were kinda more ''liberal'' than the byzantines, Albanian back in the middle agaes even supported the Bulgarian king against byzantines...when studying history, we should consider the concept of time and space, back in middle ages there were not defined borders and the population was far less denser... also, the statehoods back than did not care much wether their dependicies were albanian or serbian, i m actually amased that serbian king took the effort to do an ''ethnic'' census...back then people were ientified mostly by tribes and deeds, or proffesions. A king ''sent by christ'' and given''heavenly powers'' would not give a damn wether his depencies spoke chinese or serbian back then. Back then, in the balkans, probably Albanian princes had closest ties with their simple people...that is why when Progon proclaimed the Albanian Kingdom in 1190 , he did not ask blessing of the Pope, he didn't need a pope to tell his people that ''he'' was ''blessed'' by heavenly powers to rule them...

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1)
-
lol, sure.


>You're not the only who can play that game.

How far back in history do you want to go? Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.
(Peggy, 11 January 2011)

It is well documented that Serbs came to the Balkans in the 7th century. No shadow of doubt, so Serbia "always" ownign Kosova is completely out of the question. The land in today's Kosova was once called Dardania and was inhabited by Illyrians. Illyrians are considered by most reputable historians to be the ancestors of modern day Albanians. Even if you disagree with most historians, which would not surprise me in th eleast, please feel free to show me proof at the Albanians' arrival in the Balkans. There are other autochtonous people in the Balkans, like the Vlachs, who are well documented to have lived in the area longer than the Slavs and today they have nothing to show for it. Zilch. It doesn't mean that they haven't lived herebefore the Slavs though.
As for evidence of the Albanian's ownership of Kosova just go there today and you'll see for yourself.





Please show me an elaborate building in Kosovo erected by Albanians beyond reasonable doubt and before Decani. Few stones supposed to be built by Illyrians whose language is not even known does not count. The debate not even started - it's already finished.
(Je¿ Magyarok, 11 January 2011)

Ataman why is it that newcomers like you Magyars and the Serbs insist of disputing our origins? Could it be because you haven't sorted out yours yet?
Sort out your own mess first then concentrate on us.

iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)


What nonsense, Albania never existed as a nation state, it was always a vilyat under the Ottoman empire at best; not even to the level of Croatia which at least had a Sabor (parliament) under the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Why are you spreading lies about the ethnicity of the former Yugoslavia?

Croatians, Montenegrins, Slovenes and Serbs are South Slavs. They are not any other race you might like to argue.

For that matter there is no definitive proof that Albanians are Illyrian, in fact some Slavic Croatians claim to be Illyrian as well, pure falicy and fantasy.

You may be able to fool some illiterate Albanians with your historical garbage, but the truth cannot be changed no matter how much lies comes out of your mouth.

Seems like the education system in Serbia keeps failing students generation after generation.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 19:17)

Poor comment, Zoti: the Albanian history and math education is lightyears beyond Hungarian. I am very sorry that Mr. Gábor Gyapai is no more alive to write an argument, but his pupils are around.

I know that for you Hungarians and the Serbs your "history" starts when you settled in today's Europe. You were just "barbarians" before that so convenientli your forget that part of your history.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 21:59)
======================

How far back in history do you want to go?
Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.

The Flying Dutchman, 11 January 2011 18:31

Don´t smoke and fly.

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.
(Joe, 10 January 2011 22:36)
======================

So the ethnically cleansed ones don't matter. They will never return, ha?

Ataman why is it that newcomers like you Magyars and the Serbs insist of disputing our origins? Could it be because you haven't sorted out yours yet?
Sort out your own mess first then concentrate on us.
(Zoti, 11 January 2011 16:11)
======================

Our history is not messy and is well documented. Now, stop diverting and please show us some proof of Albanians being the owners of Kosovo BEFORE Serbs arrived. If you can show us some evidence then yes I will agree that you had ownership of that land before us but since you cannot show anything then you really cannot claim it. Sure, there is a majority of Albanians there now but that's not what this discussion is about. You have taken it from us, Serbs, not the other way around. Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone. I would like to see those maps of yours before Serbian settlement showing that Kosovo was yours.

Stop talking rubbish. Being a majority there now DOES NOT ENTITLE you to it. Why can't you just get that?

Show me where Kosovo has "always" been a part of Serbia and then we can start a debate.
(Zoti, 10 January 2011 21:59)

Please show me an elaborate building in Kosovo erected by Albanians beyond reasonable doubt and before Decani. Few stones supposed to be built by Illyrians whose language is not even known does not count. The debate not even started - it's already finished. Where it ends is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages

"The Illyrian languages were likely extinct between the 2nd and 6th centuries AD"

also:

"Today, the main source of authoritative information about the Illyrian language consists of a handful of Illyrian words cited in classical sources, and numerous examples of Illyrian anthroponyms, ethnonyms, toponyms and hydronyms"

Pay attention to:

"In the absence of sufficient lexical data and texts written in the Illyrian languages, the theories supporting the Centum character of the Illyrian language have been based mainly on the Centum character of the Venetic language"

versus:

"However, it has been shown that even in Albanian and Balto-Slavic, which are Satem languages, in this phonetical position the palatovelars have been generally depalatized"

C'mon - we don't even know, was Illyrian a Centum or Satem - likely Centum. But we know, Albanian is Satem.

Unless, of course Serbs turned Wikipedia around just to chase you away from Kosovo for what you don't even have a native Albanian word. Reminds me Romanians in Transylvania - there is no Romanian word for that area in Romanian language. Everyone calls it either in Latin (Transylvania) or in Slavonic ("Seven Castles") or like Serbs - Hungarian way (Erdelj or Erdély). Where the hack is Daco-Romanian word for Transylvania and Albanian word for Kosovo - collective amnesia?

@zoti
show us just one Albanian source from prior to the 19th century that claims you are "illyrian", you will never find one as it does not exist. The illyrian claim was first made by croats and serbs, see "the illyrian movement", the fact is that the people of the balkans are made up of various groups who have lived there for thousands of years.

"Serbs are violently driven out from it"
Nenad

Any statistics to prove it?
(Joe, 10 January 2011 15:46)

I can't pull out them for you on the short notice - but the story is 100% the same as with Erdély. The area was largely Serb (in Erdély: Hungarian) till about the same time, end of 17th century.

Both areas got "rid" of the autochon population for the same reason: Hapsburg mercenaries. The mountaineers (Albanian and Romanian tribes) begun to occupy the place.

Two names to mention:

#1: Giorgio Basta (a critical figure for the Hungarian tragedy - you may look up his ethnic background, by the way)

#2: Dr. Gábor Gyapai, my history teacher. I was blessed to have this gentleman as history teacher - may his memory and soul be blessed, one of the best guys ever, the superman of history and science and a great character.

You can google on him, too - even after passing away he has countless admirers, my wife and myself included. We were lucky to have him as our teacher.

If you are really interested and in details - feel free to be my guest, let's drive to Szentendre and walk the Serbian museum there.

----

So? Who cares who lived where 700 years ago anyway...
(iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)

Okay - than why it's rare an Albanian here who does fail to tell us stories about Dardanian Empire from 4000 year ago?!?

Let's use the same logic: who lived where 700 years ago should be only of historic interest, not relevant politically. Same applies to earlier time. We are here and now with the problems to solve what can't be solved with the 700 year old (or 4000 year old) logic.

That erases the entire "natural Albania" (or Greater Romania) and pretty much equals Enver Hoxha to Ceauºescu.

Isn't it interesting, how similar are both dictators, by the way?

--

in Albania for instance many small medieval churches still survive, and not strangely they are located on the top of the closest hill of the village..in pagan times the top of the hills or mountains and some strange large cliffs were a common cult...also, the middle ages concept is different from 19th century nationalsim
(iliri, 10 January 2011 15:24)

Yes, this part is not to object at all. Here I need a serious help (no joking!) because I want to visit these little-known churches in Albania later this spring. I do know well, they DO exist and quite a few did survived the Hoxha-insanity. But the "usual" guide books are mum about them presumably because the authors did not put enough effort and these do not look that "important". Very difficult to dig out information. Please provide some links where they are. Mostly what I am interested in are the early frescoes - thanks.

You are complately missing the subject...it is about census in current Kosovo. Census means counting K-Albanians and K-Serbs in Kosovo living there currently.
(Joe, 10 January 2011 22:36)

Are you reading the same post?

He tries to explain the so called Albanian population in Kosovo and Metohia and quoting completely inaccurate historical statements and I paraphrase;

IE: 'The Serbian Kingdom during the middle ages only lasted five year's'

In fact, the Nemenaja dynasty lasted for 3 centuries with over 14 rulers and many of the churches monasteries are named after those rulers, the greatest of course being Tsar Dushan. There is a reason Kosovo is called the land of the churches, something the Albanian extremist groups would like to eliminate by engaging in the most disgusting crime a livng human can do, purposely desecrating a gravesite and destroying holy sites.


If you still dont' get the point this might help you;

(1) Jon Hunyadi was a Albanian who helped defend Belgrade.

Jon Hunyadi was Hungarian who led the Christian army to victory over the Ottoman empire and Mehmed II defending Belgrade .

(2) Buda was named and founded by Serbs.

The name was take from the Hun leader Bleda who's name is Buda in Hungarian.


Doesn't feel so good when someone spreads lies about the history of one's nation particulary when Kosovo and Methohia is the founding nation of Serbia.

Stop talking rubbish. Being a majority there now DOES NOT ENTITLE you to it. Why can't you just get that?
(Peggy, 12 January 2011) \

Peggy since you seem so well-versed in Serbian history do you agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century?

If you do then please explain to me how did you get it from the natives? I'm assuming that there were native people living there and there were no Albanians in Kosova at all in the VII century for the discussion's sake.

Why is entitled Kosova to you who came to the region in VII century and not to the majority of the people living there now?

If you don't agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century then I believe any further conversation on this issue is futile.

Oh, talking about Illyrians again? Aren't you people tired of repeating the same things over and over?

Back to the article, the best part in my opinion is when he says:
"My suggestion is that a regional census be carried out in all former Yugoslav countries except Slovenia, but including Albania. That is the only way to conduct a relevant census which, under a careful supervision of the international community, may provide the data useful to all Western Balkan countries"

that is never. He is proposing some sort of coordination on census between Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, and this entity called "international community", which is itself divided in 200 thousand groups of interest. Good luck on that. I think he just wants to be opposed to anything coming from this side of the border. In my opinion census data about Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo would be useful to Serbia too, to better "fight for its rights in Kosovo", you know your targets better and focus your tools, economic, incentives, propaganda etc etc, maximize your outcome. But no, he just has to oppose and tries to look constructive by suggesting something that is just impossible.

''You have taken it from us, Serbs, not the other way around. Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone. I would like to see those maps of yours before Serbian settlement showing that Kosovo was yours. ''

Ok, we took it from serbs... so?

'' Serbs settled in an area which really was not marked to belong to anyone.''

Please. Gotta admit, though, prior to slavic flood, no one could see Kosovo, serbs, far greter explorers than Colombus, discovered it for first time.

''Now, stop diverting and please show us some proof of Albanians being the owners of Kosovo BEFORE Serbs arrived. ''

It is like asking a man standing right in front of you evidence to show you that he is alive...the presence of Albanians in balkans is a proof that we were in kosovo before serbs arrived...that is enough for me at least. But if you need proper answers, you need to ask or refer to proffesional historians, and scholars...not from a post comment corner.

..the presence of Albanians in balkans is a proof that we were in kosovo before serbs arrived...
==============================

This does not make any sense at all.
How so?
I keep asking for proof of your ownership of Kosovo before Serbs settled there and you cannot come up with a shred of any evidence and yet you keep claiming how Serbs took it from you.

Please, tell me when, how and where is this evidence of you being owners of Kosovo. What do you think happened? Serbs came, killed you and took Kosovo by force?
All I want is your version of what happened there.

Peggy since you seem so well-versed in Serbian history do you agree that you arrived in the Balkans in the VII century?

If you do then please explain to me how did you get it from the natives? I'm assuming that there were native people living there and there were no Albanians in Kosova at all in the VII century for the discussion's sake.
=======================

Yes I agree with you that Serbs settled in Kosovo then but please do tell me what was your society like there back then. Did Serbs start a war with you and took Kosovo by force. How many of you were there and was Kosovo a defined country on the map with Albanians in charge?

I am really interested in your answers to this.

''Please, tell me when, how and where is this evidence of you being owners of Kosovo. What do you think happened? Serbs came, killed you and took Kosovo by force?
All I want is your version of what happened there.''

I m not a historian, all i know in technical terms is that back then , south of danube was Roman Empire, we albanians were part of roman empire, and willingly or not, we were integrated into roman empire, Emperors during that period ,when barabrian hordes attacked the empire, even resided in Durres from time to time in order to escape barabrian raids, one of the earliest universities was founded in durres, about 11 emperors were illyrian, in history it is known as illyrian soldier period, like every single european people we bare roman legacy ,wether we like it or not, back in in 7th century, there was no other political border besides Roman borders, we, Albanians were inside the roman borders, slavs were outside, simple, what you call Kosovo, did not exist in 7th century, that part was divided among moesia, macedonia and illyricum, which were roman prefectures, so technically serbs killed who ever was on their way and settled, simple as that. Native people of balkans are Albanians, Greeks and Romanians, we like it or not slavs settled later...the reason that back then there is no documentation in ALbnaian language is because the language of the empire was Latin and Greek, what we call slavic langauge was not written either in that period, slavonic church language was written by a couple of greek priests who wanted to spread christianity among bulgarians...actaully being identified as greek back then was equivalent to ''anti-christian'' ''heretic'' ''infedel'' or simply ''pagan'' but this is another story, my point is that greeks, albanians, romanians, identified themselves as romans in documentation forms, let's say an albanian during roman period had to write a CV to apply for a job, he would either write it in latin or in greek, the fact that i m posting this message in english does not make an english...romanians were latinized because most of roman legions were deployed there during slavic and barbaric floods, so they assimilated by proportion of number soldiers to local population ...

So, Serbs have been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years ?!
(icj1)
-
lol, sure.


>You're not the only who can play that game.
(trudsaam, 10 January 2011 00:26)

I'm not playing that game because I have no idea or proof how long bacteria, algae, dinosaurs, chimpanzees, Serbs or Albanians have lived in Kosovo. But some others appears to have the proof that Serbs have always (i.e. 5,000,000,000 years) in Kosovo.

How far back in history do you want to go?
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

Up to the origins… once you start going back there is no reason to stop here and there



Just remember, Serbs and others can prove their existence there for many centuries but can you?
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

Well, science has proved that before Serbs there were only bacteria in Kosovo for a large chunk of the history (thousands times longer than the 700 years pretended by Serbs), I agree to follow your approach and return Kosovo to bacteria.



If you don't have any evidence of your existence and ownership of the land before Serbian "barbarians" you must be an outsider too with less time in Kosovo.
(Peggy, 11 January 2011 08:55)

This is another good point. Do the Serbs have the land deeds signed by those who owned that land before the Serbs (unless of course Serbs have always been in Kosovo for 5,000,000,000 years). I’d love to see those deeds that Serbs have from the prior owners !!!