"Witnesses of organ trafficking vanished"

The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.

At a dump site, investigators found a plastic IV kit container, a syringe, an empty bottle of Tranxene - a drug used as a muscle relaxant and intravenous anesthetic, as well as antibiotics, medicine bottles, pieces of cloth from surgical scrubs, bottles of various pills and an empty gun holster.

All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year.
WOW I did not know there was such overwhelming evidence.
These items can only indicate organ transplantation. No one else uses (a) syringe, or an IV tubing kit, and definitely antibiotics or especially "Tranxene" a drug more known for its treatment of alcoholics but I guess it was given to the people after they were shot??
If this is the evidence gathered hopefully they are relying on people with less than a 3rd grade education to convince them that it is proof that these crimes occurred.
Maybe it would have been better to just have said evidence was gathered, I would not tell anyone else what eveidence if you want anyone to take it seriously.

There is always a copy left. No need to be sorry or happy.
No doubt, this WILL be brought up to the surface. Link:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2008/11/20/Albania.pdf

"literally disappeared" Baraybar said ...or...

As Eliza Doolittle said, " They done her in."

For all those who are ridiculing the UN report and Dick Marty's case, you should really think again. Do you believe that the reaction would have been so strong at the Council of Europe and beyond if his case was based purely on what some here are calling 'normal' medical artefacts found in a house? (Personally I don't have transplant kits and muscle relaxants etc. in my bathroom cupboard.)

There was human blood found in the kitchen and other rooms of this particular house - is this too 'normal'?

Also, the investigation is not just about one house. There were other sites. There are witnesses. There are those senior people in NGOs and UN bodies etc. who testify to havaing known about what was going on/ known others who spoke about what was going on.

Carla Del Ponte of all people is pushing for a full investigation, and she is so Serbophobic she can barely bring herself to say the name of the country.

There are politicians, journalists, lawyers, investigators and many others just lining up to support this investigation who certainly believe that it is a very substantial case. One brave person, Dick Marty, has stepped forward and now the house of cards topples, taking with it all the rancid disgusting abuse of human life under UN watch which has taken place.

Finally good articles are appearing questioning all of the lies and spin used in 1999 by amoral politicians.

I feel genuinely sorry for Kosovo Albanians, because I think things must be very very tough anyway, and this flood of contempt for the behaviour of your leaders is going to get even stronger. Aid is floating away, as is support.

Good article from Counterpunch: http://www.counterpunch.org/spinney12172010.html

The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.
(Steve JP, 21 December 2010 16:27)
=====================

The evidence was destroyed by Germany with Hague's permission.
Why the evidence was destroyed and why was it not simply put away is an excellent question.

"There is always a copy left. No need to be sorry or happy.
No doubt, this WILL be brought up to the surface. Link:"

Very good Staff. So everybody can read the results of UN investigators.

Two things are worthy to be mentioned:

The UN investigators had full access to the area assisted by the local authorities.

Searching for traces resulted all negative except for some empty bottles and medicine materials that every family can posses for basic needs.

Isn't it ridiculous to set up allegations for killing and harvesting the organs of 500 people based on such findings? Even for one dead person you should provide much more than this just for the sake of the respect for the life.

Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !
1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.
2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.
3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.
4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.

Thanks Staff, very useful, but really - that's it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of an investigation if there have been all these testimonies etc, and I have no brief for Thaci - in fact I think he should resign pending the outcome of a thorough investigation.

And regardless of the organ traficcking allegations, the fact remains that hundreds of Serbs and several times thta number of Albanians are still missing, ie, were killed by their Serb and Albanian captors (and personally I would be more opposed to being killed in captivity than to what someone did with my organs later), and this still needs lots of work, on both sets of gangsters.

But really? The fuss about "evidence" at a "yellow house" is about a syringe, some empty tablet bottles, a piece of material which might be surgical overalls? OK, unmik or whoever was remiss to destroy this "evidence", I agree, but I kind of see why they might have thought it irrelevant. Blood stains. I reckon they'd find some if they snooped around my house too.

Yes investigate. But I have to wonder whether or not this report and its organ trafick allegations actually help or divert from the bigger game of working out what happened to the missing (killed) Serbs and Albanians and prosecuting just for those crimes.

“Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !”

I usually ride horses which might not be the case with you I suppose.
“1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.”

It seems that you take for true everything said to the Marti’s report!!!” Any report presented to CoU (not EU) is analyzed first based on facts and evidences than the conclusions are made. After that if there are perpetrators they are prosecuted according to the law. But you Serbs jumped to the conclusions and right now you are pointing to the alleged persons without waiting for any true result. It can not be weirder than that therefore you will not be taken seriously.

“2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.”

We Albanians and all international community are waiting for Marti to tell us what happened but he is not giving anything concrete just for start. Except Serbs and Russians everyone else doubts the report which apparently doesn’t describe what happened.

“3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.”
Why Marti didn’t present it to the COE to let it explore the report and verify it but he quickly accused Albanians by showing it to the public!!! After that with solid evidences he would have far more easily to point fingers to H Thaci and other. As the result Marti got very negative opinions from most institutions either in Kosovo and Albania or US and EU.

“4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.“

Man I am sure that after two years you will say that the evidences have been destroyed by US and EU similarly with other cases. Look at the Serbs here how try to show that there have been some kind of conspiracies against them and now it is time for the truth but nobody mentions victims of their wars which should be enough to believe the truth that the world know.

The empty medicine bottles, syringes etc, were found in a rubbish dump by the stream.
Wow, what an overwhelming evidence!

Also, they found blood in the kitchen by the side of the stove? Unless you are a vegetarian, who doesn't have blood in their kitchen?

Why did Carla del Ponte destroy the evidence, but did not raise an indictement?

Also, how could Baraybar interview the victims, when Marti said that they were shot before taking their organs out? Where did he interview them, in Kosovo or in Serbia - one would have thought that after such an ordeal they would have run hard and fast into Serbia, under the arms of MUP. But since interviewing them, these victims have conveniently disappeared. Hmm, really? Something doesn't add up here.

They didn't vanish, they are in Belgrade, enjoying Serbian pensions.

>> "such as drug bottles and surgical containers"

Is that all they had? Losers, my house has 10 times more.

So they had this: Clorazepate is used to relieve anxiety. Clorazepate is also used along with other medications to treat certain types of seizures. It is also used to relieve unpleasant symptoms that may be experienced by people who have stopped drinking alcohol after drinking large amounts for a long time. Clorazepate is in a class of medications called benzodiazepines. It works by decreasing abnormal electrical activity in the brain.'

Here's the problem: Dick Marty changed again and said that nothing happened at the yellow house. Now what?

@pss - I actually meant blood transfusion and not transplant - just a typo.

You should know from my many previous posts that I have never (unlike many on here) denied that terrible crimes took place. Or belittled one crime compared to another because of ethnicity.

But the numbers, no matter how distateful it may be, are important because they were used as a major part of taking nations to war.

"# The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.
(Steve JP, 21 December 2010 16:27) "

The Hague routinely destroys physical evidence after it's been used, or if it's determined there's no case for it to be used in. The families of those killed at Srebrenica were horrified to learn that everything retrieved from the graves - rings, photos, ID cards, pieces of clothing, etc. - had been destroyed after being logged, without any notice to the families. This meant that in most cases they were left with absolutely no physical reminder of their family members. Destruction of evidence that had been used or was not going to be used was simply a practical necessity - they've been dealing with maybe a couple of hundred thousand deaths, storage space is not infinite. It might have been thoughtless, as far as the families were concerned, to burn the materials, but there was certainly no intent to cover anything up.

So...Dick martin, barabyr, del ponte...only three? Serbia is so cheap...if i were Serbia i would try to buy more prosecutors, because these clowns actually seem to considering prosecuting a hobby rather a proffesional commitment...

And how can you conclude that «all this» is related with a crime? This is pure propaganda.

Staff,

did you read the conclusion of your pdf? It's the first thing, literally! My opinion is the matter is 100% in accordance with what DimTuci said, I couldn't have said it better.

"Witnesses of organ trafficking vanished" B92

Yeah, some of them vanished, and they'll show up at the proper time. We guard them well.

The life and health are precious, sometimes there's no second chance. The resocialization methods we sometimes use are between the most effective in the world. It's a pity we're not more frequent in that.

Presevo Valley trap was very successful.

Ups!

(kate, 21 December 2010 19:53)
Kate a few contradictions, first there were no transplant kits found, as there is no such a thing. As far as muscle relaxants, you may not but many millions of people do have them in their medicine cabinet and I would guess that 99.99999% are not involved in organ transplant.
The blood "traces" found in the house per all previous reports were never tested to determine if human or animal. But if you have ever cut your finger while cooking or had a baby at home then yes it would be normal to find traces of blood in your house. Remember this was discovered 5 years after the supposed harvesting was to take place.
You also praise the article denying the numbers of victims in Kosovo at the hands of the Serbs, however your new hero Mr Marty included in his report tens of thousands of victims from the "heinous" ethnic cleansing campaign led by Milosevic which no one can cast a doubt as to its happening.

@pss - I actually meant blood transfusion and not transplant - just a typo.

You should know from my many previous posts that I have never (unlike many on here) denied that terrible crimes took place. Or belittled one crime compared to another because of ethnicity.

But the numbers, no matter how distateful it may be, are important because they were used as a major part of taking nations to war.
(kate, 22 December 2010 10:39)
True you have hinted at your distaste for crimes committed but have held steadfast that it was somewhat justified.
As far as the numbers go, that is my point Marty's report upholds those numbers and the fact it was a ethnic cleansing campaign that caused the international community to react.
As far as a transfusion kit, one would have to say "why?", If I am going to kill you and take your kidney, why do I need a transfusion kit, or antibiotics, or even muscle relaxants, you are already dead. And tranxene is used for many reasons, none related to surgery.
You live in UK, with quality healthcare and laws dictating the disposal of used medical equipment, not in Albania where a lot of healthcare is actually done in small clinics or home settings, to find this type of refuse would more likely be the norm and not the exception at a dumpsite.
The problem is too many people (including yourself) want this to be true to somehow revalidate the Serbian actions and are desperately looking for anything that will back your claim.

By the way these allegations are that this took place after the Serb withdrawal of forces so it can never be used to justifiy the brutality that had already taken place.

Good article from Counterpunch: [link]
(kate, 21 December 2010 19:53)

I have no idea what Counterpunch is and why their articles should be considered good.

Anyway, I gave them the benefit of the doubt and read the article to see the arguments and the facts they were bringing. But when I reached at the point where it says "The estimate of 10,000 was based on dubious (to put it charitably) statistical methods for estimating the number of bodies the State Department said existed but could not find -- once illustrating government's propensity to confuse the a priori with the a posteriori" I understood that is was not so good.

First, the statistical study mentioned above was not from the Department of State but from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

Second, it was not dubious at all; just followed normal statical procedures. You analize a sample and then extrapolate to the population (exactly the same thing done for voting polls). The result has a margin of error (usually +/- 3% depending on the size of the sample). And their estimate was indeed close.

In a 2008 joint study by the Humanitarian Law Center, The International Commission on Missing Person, and the Missing Person Commission of Serbia made a list with names of 13,472 people killed in Kosovo in the the period from 01/1998 to 12/2000. The list containes names, date of birth, status (military/civilian), time and place of death and how they died. In that list, there are 9,260 Albanians, 2,488 Serbs, and 1,254 victims that can not be identified by ethnic origin.

So, the author of that article has to do some more research on more recent facts and then re-write

The evidence was destroyed by Germany with Hague's permission.
Why the evidence was destroyed and why was it not simply put away is an excellent question.
(Peggy, 21 December 2010 20:41)

That's an excellent point. You must ask Carla del Ponte as she was in charge of that evidence :)

You live in UK, with quality healthcare and laws dictating the disposal of used medical equipment, not in Albania where a lot of healthcare is actually done in small clinics or home settings, to find this type of refuse would more likely be the norm and not the exception at a dumpsite.
(pss, 22 December 2010 13:06)

regarding the famous dumpsite, obviously not many people discussing about it have heard about the concept of "chain of custody" of evidence in a criminal investigation.

The "chain of custody" makes that evidence worthless to find anybody guilty beying resonable doubt. That's why multiple investigations in the past have concluded that there is no criminal case to built.

Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !
1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.
2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.
3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.
4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.
(Staff, 21 December 2010 19:54 OK my Q why Serbs form Serbia where catch in Kosovo trying to buy witnesses up 100,000 to make the fake stories and this is not just telling story but cut LIVE in camera. did any news agency told to the Serbian public in Serbia for such a such incident happen , when someone believes such thing is true you don't have to bother trying to manipulate things so all the peaces will get together and thanks good today exist a technology to prove innocence and hopefully after everything is clear Albanians will do anything to punish in the Court of law the individual who are behind this circus...

At a dump site, investigators found a plastic IV kit container, a syringe, an empty bottle of Tranxene - a drug used as a muscle relaxant and intravenous anesthetic, as well as antibiotics, medicine bottles, pieces of cloth from surgical scrubs, bottles of various pills and an empty gun holster.

All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year.
WOW I did not know there was such overwhelming evidence.
These items can only indicate organ transplantation. No one else uses (a) syringe, or an IV tubing kit, and definitely antibiotics or especially "Tranxene" a drug more known for its treatment of alcoholics but I guess it was given to the people after they were shot??
If this is the evidence gathered hopefully they are relying on people with less than a 3rd grade education to convince them that it is proof that these crimes occurred.
Maybe it would have been better to just have said evidence was gathered, I would not tell anyone else what eveidence if you want anyone to take it seriously.

They didn't vanish, they are in Belgrade, enjoying Serbian pensions.

>> "such as drug bottles and surgical containers"

Is that all they had? Losers, my house has 10 times more.

So they had this: Clorazepate is used to relieve anxiety. Clorazepate is also used along with other medications to treat certain types of seizures. It is also used to relieve unpleasant symptoms that may be experienced by people who have stopped drinking alcohol after drinking large amounts for a long time. Clorazepate is in a class of medications called benzodiazepines. It works by decreasing abnormal electrical activity in the brain.'

Here's the problem: Dick Marty changed again and said that nothing happened at the yellow house. Now what?

And how can you conclude that «all this» is related with a crime? This is pure propaganda.

“Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !”

I usually ride horses which might not be the case with you I suppose.
“1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.”

It seems that you take for true everything said to the Marti’s report!!!” Any report presented to CoU (not EU) is analyzed first based on facts and evidences than the conclusions are made. After that if there are perpetrators they are prosecuted according to the law. But you Serbs jumped to the conclusions and right now you are pointing to the alleged persons without waiting for any true result. It can not be weirder than that therefore you will not be taken seriously.

“2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.”

We Albanians and all international community are waiting for Marti to tell us what happened but he is not giving anything concrete just for start. Except Serbs and Russians everyone else doubts the report which apparently doesn’t describe what happened.

“3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.”
Why Marti didn’t present it to the COE to let it explore the report and verify it but he quickly accused Albanians by showing it to the public!!! After that with solid evidences he would have far more easily to point fingers to H Thaci and other. As the result Marti got very negative opinions from most institutions either in Kosovo and Albania or US and EU.

“4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.“

Man I am sure that after two years you will say that the evidences have been destroyed by US and EU similarly with other cases. Look at the Serbs here how try to show that there have been some kind of conspiracies against them and now it is time for the truth but nobody mentions victims of their wars which should be enough to believe the truth that the world know.

So...Dick martin, barabyr, del ponte...only three? Serbia is so cheap...if i were Serbia i would try to buy more prosecutors, because these clowns actually seem to considering prosecuting a hobby rather a proffesional commitment...

"There is always a copy left. No need to be sorry or happy.
No doubt, this WILL be brought up to the surface. Link:"

Very good Staff. So everybody can read the results of UN investigators.

Two things are worthy to be mentioned:

The UN investigators had full access to the area assisted by the local authorities.

Searching for traces resulted all negative except for some empty bottles and medicine materials that every family can posses for basic needs.

Isn't it ridiculous to set up allegations for killing and harvesting the organs of 500 people based on such findings? Even for one dead person you should provide much more than this just for the sake of the respect for the life.

Staff,

did you read the conclusion of your pdf? It's the first thing, literally! My opinion is the matter is 100% in accordance with what DimTuci said, I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks Staff, very useful, but really - that's it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in favour of an investigation if there have been all these testimonies etc, and I have no brief for Thaci - in fact I think he should resign pending the outcome of a thorough investigation.

And regardless of the organ traficcking allegations, the fact remains that hundreds of Serbs and several times thta number of Albanians are still missing, ie, were killed by their Serb and Albanian captors (and personally I would be more opposed to being killed in captivity than to what someone did with my organs later), and this still needs lots of work, on both sets of gangsters.

But really? The fuss about "evidence" at a "yellow house" is about a syringe, some empty tablet bottles, a piece of material which might be surgical overalls? OK, unmik or whoever was remiss to destroy this "evidence", I agree, but I kind of see why they might have thought it irrelevant. Blood stains. I reckon they'd find some if they snooped around my house too.

Yes investigate. But I have to wonder whether or not this report and its organ trafick allegations actually help or divert from the bigger game of working out what happened to the missing (killed) Serbs and Albanians and prosecuting just for those crimes.

Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !
1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.
2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.
3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.
4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.

The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.

There is always a copy left. No need to be sorry or happy.
No doubt, this WILL be brought up to the surface. Link:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2008/11/20/Albania.pdf

The empty medicine bottles, syringes etc, were found in a rubbish dump by the stream.
Wow, what an overwhelming evidence!

Also, they found blood in the kitchen by the side of the stove? Unless you are a vegetarian, who doesn't have blood in their kitchen?

Why did Carla del Ponte destroy the evidence, but did not raise an indictement?

Also, how could Baraybar interview the victims, when Marti said that they were shot before taking their organs out? Where did he interview them, in Kosovo or in Serbia - one would have thought that after such an ordeal they would have run hard and fast into Serbia, under the arms of MUP. But since interviewing them, these victims have conveniently disappeared. Hmm, really? Something doesn't add up here.

The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.
(Steve JP, 21 December 2010 16:27)
=====================

The evidence was destroyed by Germany with Hague's permission.
Why the evidence was destroyed and why was it not simply put away is an excellent question.

For all those who are ridiculing the UN report and Dick Marty's case, you should really think again. Do you believe that the reaction would have been so strong at the Council of Europe and beyond if his case was based purely on what some here are calling 'normal' medical artefacts found in a house? (Personally I don't have transplant kits and muscle relaxants etc. in my bathroom cupboard.)

There was human blood found in the kitchen and other rooms of this particular house - is this too 'normal'?

Also, the investigation is not just about one house. There were other sites. There are witnesses. There are those senior people in NGOs and UN bodies etc. who testify to havaing known about what was going on/ known others who spoke about what was going on.

Carla Del Ponte of all people is pushing for a full investigation, and she is so Serbophobic she can barely bring herself to say the name of the country.

There are politicians, journalists, lawyers, investigators and many others just lining up to support this investigation who certainly believe that it is a very substantial case. One brave person, Dick Marty, has stepped forward and now the house of cards topples, taking with it all the rancid disgusting abuse of human life under UN watch which has taken place.

Finally good articles are appearing questioning all of the lies and spin used in 1999 by amoral politicians.

I feel genuinely sorry for Kosovo Albanians, because I think things must be very very tough anyway, and this flood of contempt for the behaviour of your leaders is going to get even stronger. Aid is floating away, as is support.

Good article from Counterpunch: http://www.counterpunch.org/spinney12172010.html

"Witnesses of organ trafficking vanished" B92

Yeah, some of them vanished, and they'll show up at the proper time. We guard them well.

The life and health are precious, sometimes there's no second chance. The resocialization methods we sometimes use are between the most effective in the world. It's a pity we're not more frequent in that.

Presevo Valley trap was very successful.

Ups!

(kate, 21 December 2010 19:53)
Kate a few contradictions, first there were no transplant kits found, as there is no such a thing. As far as muscle relaxants, you may not but many millions of people do have them in their medicine cabinet and I would guess that 99.99999% are not involved in organ transplant.
The blood "traces" found in the house per all previous reports were never tested to determine if human or animal. But if you have ever cut your finger while cooking or had a baby at home then yes it would be normal to find traces of blood in your house. Remember this was discovered 5 years after the supposed harvesting was to take place.
You also praise the article denying the numbers of victims in Kosovo at the hands of the Serbs, however your new hero Mr Marty included in his report tens of thousands of victims from the "heinous" ethnic cleansing campaign led by Milosevic which no one can cast a doubt as to its happening.

@pss - I actually meant blood transfusion and not transplant - just a typo.

You should know from my many previous posts that I have never (unlike many on here) denied that terrible crimes took place. Or belittled one crime compared to another because of ethnicity.

But the numbers, no matter how distateful it may be, are important because they were used as a major part of taking nations to war.

"# The article ends by stating: "All the evidence was turned over to the Hague Tribunal, and destroyed the following year". Does this mean the Hague Tribunal destroyed the evidence? If so, then the Hague Tribunal committed evidence destruction. Why was not the evidence simply returned to the investigators? Because of a "cover-up", that's why.
(Steve JP, 21 December 2010 16:27) "

The Hague routinely destroys physical evidence after it's been used, or if it's determined there's no case for it to be used in. The families of those killed at Srebrenica were horrified to learn that everything retrieved from the graves - rings, photos, ID cards, pieces of clothing, etc. - had been destroyed after being logged, without any notice to the families. This meant that in most cases they were left with absolutely no physical reminder of their family members. Destruction of evidence that had been used or was not going to be used was simply a practical necessity - they've been dealing with maybe a couple of hundred thousand deaths, storage space is not infinite. It might have been thoughtless, as far as the families were concerned, to burn the materials, but there was certainly no intent to cover anything up.

"literally disappeared" Baraybar said ...or...

As Eliza Doolittle said, " They done her in."

@pss - I actually meant blood transfusion and not transplant - just a typo.

You should know from my many previous posts that I have never (unlike many on here) denied that terrible crimes took place. Or belittled one crime compared to another because of ethnicity.

But the numbers, no matter how distateful it may be, are important because they were used as a major part of taking nations to war.
(kate, 22 December 2010 10:39)
True you have hinted at your distaste for crimes committed but have held steadfast that it was somewhat justified.
As far as the numbers go, that is my point Marty's report upholds those numbers and the fact it was a ethnic cleansing campaign that caused the international community to react.
As far as a transfusion kit, one would have to say "why?", If I am going to kill you and take your kidney, why do I need a transfusion kit, or antibiotics, or even muscle relaxants, you are already dead. And tranxene is used for many reasons, none related to surgery.
You live in UK, with quality healthcare and laws dictating the disposal of used medical equipment, not in Albania where a lot of healthcare is actually done in small clinics or home settings, to find this type of refuse would more likely be the norm and not the exception at a dumpsite.
The problem is too many people (including yourself) want this to be true to somehow revalidate the Serbian actions and are desperately looking for anything that will back your claim.

By the way these allegations are that this took place after the Serb withdrawal of forces so it can never be used to justifiy the brutality that had already taken place.

Good article from Counterpunch: [link]
(kate, 21 December 2010 19:53)

I have no idea what Counterpunch is and why their articles should be considered good.

Anyway, I gave them the benefit of the doubt and read the article to see the arguments and the facts they were bringing. But when I reached at the point where it says "The estimate of 10,000 was based on dubious (to put it charitably) statistical methods for estimating the number of bodies the State Department said existed but could not find -- once illustrating government's propensity to confuse the a priori with the a posteriori" I understood that is was not so good.

First, the statistical study mentioned above was not from the Department of State but from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

Second, it was not dubious at all; just followed normal statical procedures. You analize a sample and then extrapolate to the population (exactly the same thing done for voting polls). The result has a margin of error (usually +/- 3% depending on the size of the sample). And their estimate was indeed close.

In a 2008 joint study by the Humanitarian Law Center, The International Commission on Missing Person, and the Missing Person Commission of Serbia made a list with names of 13,472 people killed in Kosovo in the the period from 01/1998 to 12/2000. The list containes names, date of birth, status (military/civilian), time and place of death and how they died. In that list, there are 9,260 Albanians, 2,488 Serbs, and 1,254 victims that can not be identified by ethnic origin.

So, the author of that article has to do some more research on more recent facts and then re-write

The evidence was destroyed by Germany with Hague's permission.
Why the evidence was destroyed and why was it not simply put away is an excellent question.
(Peggy, 21 December 2010 20:41)

That's an excellent point. You must ask Carla del Ponte as she was in charge of that evidence :)

You live in UK, with quality healthcare and laws dictating the disposal of used medical equipment, not in Albania where a lot of healthcare is actually done in small clinics or home settings, to find this type of refuse would more likely be the norm and not the exception at a dumpsite.
(pss, 22 December 2010 13:06)

regarding the famous dumpsite, obviously not many people discussing about it have heard about the concept of "chain of custody" of evidence in a criminal investigation.

The "chain of custody" makes that evidence worthless to find anybody guilty beying resonable doubt. That's why multiple investigations in the past have concluded that there is no criminal case to built.

Hold your donkeys Endri ! One thing at a time !
1. Dick Marty, a very skilled diplomat and prosecutor got a task from EU two years ago. To investigate IF it was true and in that case, WHAT happened.
2. Now, his report is finished and he have said what happened.
3. Like every case around the world, you never ever burn the proof by showing them to the public before it is investigated, filed, safely taken care of, witnesses protected etc etc. I dont think I have to explain why regarding this extremely sensitive case.
4. My wild guess when talking to people who deal with this kind of cases, is that it will take at least another two years before you and me will see the whole documentation. Because this will be the time to examine all the proof they have collected. An interresting time ahead.
(Staff, 21 December 2010 19:54 OK my Q why Serbs form Serbia where catch in Kosovo trying to buy witnesses up 100,000 to make the fake stories and this is not just telling story but cut LIVE in camera. did any news agency told to the Serbian public in Serbia for such a such incident happen , when someone believes such thing is true you don't have to bother trying to manipulate things so all the peaces will get together and thanks good today exist a technology to prove innocence and hopefully after everything is clear Albanians will do anything to punish in the Court of law the individual who are behind this circus...