The Kosovo Albanian government says the CoE report, which states Prime Minister Hashim Thaci headed a criminal organization, is “baseless and slanderous”.
You don't see Serb here calling for an international investigation. Instead they're extatic over the media hype. Shameful; to see Albanians calling for investigations while Serbs are happy because of the news articles.
The moral indignation of the Kalb trolls here is hilarious. They are either blind or stupid not to have known that their leaders were a bunch of narco trafficking organ stealers. In the days of Yugoslavia everyone knew what the KLA were, and to an extent Kosovo was talked about with disdain and revolt. Although no fan of Milosevic et al, he knew what they were and went in heavy. Wouldn't you have?
Koso,
I'm not sure what you're refering to. It wasn't my reply or even your post. You mentioned Conspiracy Theory, while at the same time as propogating one yourself. It is irrelevant how much Serbian cooperation you, or I have percieved, considering you and I have no idea where Mladic is, while you are suggesting that you do. Not that Conspiracy Theories cannot be correct at times, but again you don't know, and are theorising a conspiracy.
And yes, I read a variety of news sources, on a variety of topics. I watch a variety of sourced documentaries regarding this and other topics. I wasn't discussing what and how much we know, but rather how much we THINK we know, what we THINK we've figured out. Unless you have his current address, an electric bill perhaps then your claims are simply conspiratorial.
"1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that! "
-- Sure; if it is proven that will happen. I'll be the first one to join you. Until this thing goes through a court and when Serbia finally starts asking for it to go through the international justice systems and official channels you might get it. As long as Serbia shies away from the official channels and the international justice system; it only leads to question Serbia's intentions.
"2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue."
-- Lame excuse. Serbia's investigation ended at least one year ago. There was an article about that here on B92. That was immediately after Marty and the Serb prosecutor thought they could do as they wish in Albania without any proper or official authorization from any international body. Remember they showed up in the yellow house without authorization from the EU, UN, or Albania. Not only that but these allegations have been going around since 1999, prior to Serbia starting its investigation. Serbia's silence on this issue is not very odd but quite compromising. Serbia has had years to request in the UNSC an investigation. For years it has failed to do so. This is very strange. It makes noise all around the world for a phone line yet doesn't bother requesting an investigation over organs for years. This is an odd behavior.
"3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.?"
-- It could very well be coordinated. Yea have and MP with clear anti US and sometime anti-Western leanings. A very interested Moscow, and Serbia that would benefit most from such rumors ahead of talks. Coordination might indeed be a scenario. This report could have very well been published last week. However that wouldn't be as damaging to Kosova seeing that might have cause Thaci to lose.
"4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now. "
-- It is in the best political interest for them not to speak and let the allegations fester. However it is in the worst interest of those who seek the truth not to speak now. Now is the time when they should have been urgently seeking an UNSC meeting and request and investigation. Their silence is very telling and leaves a lot to questioned about their intentions in seeking the truth.
"5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this. "
-- Russia has been wanting to close the Hague for a while now. This may be used for their justification. Not totally out of the question. As for Mladic doubt that'll happen.
"I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything."
-- Use google translate. You will be kindly surprised. What you say is absolutely not true. Hit the comment sections of a few of Albania's and Kosova's most visited websites.
"In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not."
-- Two things here. As said before, this is absolutely not true. It is quite obvious that you do not follow Albanian media.
Second, the Serbs have been dying for a shot at the equalization of crimes. Whether this turns out to be true or not, equalization is a figment of imagination in the Serbs' minds. Thousands dead and a million ethnically cleansed. When you see Albanians do that in Belgrade then Serbs may be onto something
"Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor. "
-- Hypotheticals. I still fail to see the logic in the silence of the Serb leadership and their failure to urgently gather a UN meeting and ask for an international investigation. Its as if with their silence they are seeking to silence the truth.
"Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him."
-- It is interesting that the first who asked for proof and a thorough investigation on this report are EU bodies; not Serbia. While this report may or may not be enough to end political support for Thaci is of no importance. When and if Thaci goes someone else will fill that position. What is of utmost importance is being compromised by Serbia's silence. Serbia remains silent rather than urgently seeking an international investigation to reveal the truth. Its as if they're more concerned about Thaci's political career than the truth.
"There will be no defamation action."
-- Not after this report. Expect it if ever Serbia get the cojones to ask the UN for an international investigation. If that reveals it then I'll be first in line. Until Serbia gets the cojones; do not expect anything. We need an investigation to seek the truth. This report should be used for seeking an investigation and finding the truth. Since Serbia doesn't seem to be interested in that or calling for an investigation it means Serbia isn't interested in revealing the truth.
1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that!
2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue.
3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.
4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now.
5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this.
I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything. In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not. Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor.
Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him.
Koso,
are you aware that it seems that you don't even read through your post. Do you have evidence that Mladic is in Serbia? No you don't! Thus you're promoting your conspiracy theory. Are you Serbian? You said Serbs love CT. Or do Albanians love CT too?
Peggy,
without evidence and a fair representation of that evidence I cannot, nor am willing to step out onto a limb and isolate just one leader.
Though I fully agree with your retort that it is not just a sickness of Balkan leaders, but of many, and likely most leaders the world over.
The problem lies in the constant finger pointing. It's almost like watching a match of political tennis played by deaf-dumb-and-blind-kids.
There is also this somewhat immature part of many of us that believe in the notion of truth and fairness. These two things have rarely if ever existed at the high levels of society. We have large portions of the Balkan societies that are waiting for fairness and truth, and will not budge from their ideological positions until such a time. That time may not ever come, and those people that are waiting for it will continue to marginalize themselves into a state of helplessness and depression. Things that are out of one's own control should never be weighed too heavily on one's todo list. Yes, I would like to see truth emerge from the ashes of the former Yugoslavia, but I will not hold my breath for that. However, I suspect that there will be a time when desperation leads to acceptance of reality on a large scale and a majority of the Balkan's peoples are ready to simply move forward.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
======================
Can you point to a clean western leader?
This is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant here is that Thaci is a monster.
How many other leaders do you know of that have resorted to organ harvesting from their victims?
Yes all leaders are corrupt to an extent but nobody compares to this.
Do you put anyone else in the same basket as this demon.
I'm so happy to see serbs happy today, even though majority of you are spitting on your neighbor's face. You all forgot that crimes need to be accompanied by evidence, else they're just conspiracy theories (something you people love).
Don't forget, you're harboring MLADIC in Serbia. No EU for you!! PS what's the debt now, 38% of GDP, 39%?
why gettin so surprised, type this guy's name on google and you will find pages and pages of negative publicity, so what's the fuss about it !!
Maybe he thougt that by being "choosen" by the americans he got whiter than Ariel can do....
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
-- He is going to have the sort of future where you'll be shaking his hand sooner rather than later. You can bet on that.
Now there are a few things here that are quite odd.
1. Nobody has ever, and I mean ever presented any proof about this. Be it Del Ponte, Marti, The Serbian side, or even previous international investigations. As we all know there have indeed been previous international investigation before. Up until now this has not passed the level of rumors and hearsay. Somehow it seems someone profits more from rumors than an actual investigation that brings truth to light.
2. That becomes more convincing when we consider that for the last two years since these rumors have started neither the President of Serbia nor its Foreign Minister have requested a thorough international investigation in the UNSC meetings on Kosova;an investigation from international investigative bodies. This is quite odd when one considers that they've been screaming for such investigations in UNSC meetings about a few cut phone lines; yet they've never attempted to request an investigation in these meetings about organ trafficking. It is quite strange that phone lines take priority over organ trafficking in the Serb foreign affairs agenda. It seems that a phone line holds more importance than a human organ in the Serb foreign agenda. At least it has had more importance from 1999 to now; when talks are about to be launched. Either that or the state of Serbia is not actually interested in a thorough international investigation on this issue; that has the seal of approval from the UNSC and which might actually bring an end once and for all to these rumors.
3. The timing is very interesting. The day after Thaci wins majority of the popular vote. A few weeks before the talks. On the day that Jeremic leaves for Russia. This might be a total speculation but it seems that the Russian directive to Serbia and through Marty is to weaken the position of the West, and Kosova in these talks through such allegations but also cause an institutional crisis in Kosova which would weaken the position of Kosova as an entity but which also might eventually lead to unrest. A situation that may suit Serbia very well, hoping at the very least for a formal partition of Kosova. This may actually backfire and cause the West and Kosova to coordinate with each other in a tighter fashion and cause the actual Kosova population to gather and support their institutions against moves perceived to be launched by Moscow. We'll see how it will work.
4. It is very odd and quite interesting that more than 24 hours have passed after this news and it seems that neither the President nor the Foreign Minister of Serbia have asked for a thorough international investigation. It is quite strange indeed. It seems as if they're more interested in rumors than an actual investigation that goes to the bottom of this. They seem to always shy away from requesting an international investigation and avoid asking for such an investigation. It seems quite odd that Serbia would request an urgent UNSC meeting over a hand grenade thrown from unknown people in a crowd demonstrating in a Serb town, yet refuse to call for such an urgent meeting for the last two years even though it maintains it has ultimate proof over organ trafficking. It still refuses to call for such an urgent meeting even 24 hours after Marty's report details cam to light. This is a very strange position from the Serb state. One that seems to avoid the ultimate truth through and actual international investigation and rather prefers and puts more value on rumors and allegations. One has to question the true intentions of such attitude from the Serb government.
5. Seeing that Moscow is hell bent on ending Hague's mandate on the Balkans, these allegations may be very instrumental to Moscow. Claiming that Hague prosecutors did not do their job hence Hague's mandate should end. An end of Hague's mandate also suits Serbia very well, since without Hague, there will be no cooperation with Hague condition in order to join the EU.
Having said all that; as an Albanian I am hoping for an international investigation, through international investigative bodies and that has the seal of approval of the UN; lead by professionals and not politicians like Marty and where no Serb or Albanian has a role. This seems to be obviously what the Serb government wants to avoid. Otherwise it current attitude and reluctance to ask for what I and many Albanians are asking is very odd; leaving ample room to question their intentions.
"Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing. "
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
Correct! A agree! But, unfortunately, as you could see from the results of the lates elections, Kosovo Albanians are not grown up yet, and they voted again for Thaci.
That's how it starts., embarrassment, accusation, prosecution and there you go.. Hashim Thaci should better quit smoking while he's free.
(ZMAJ, 15 December 2010 16:29)
Obviously you don't know anything about Snake. He is a none smoker, and Serbia did not win a big victory , but ,ost certanly Thaci did. I am sure that you don't know K-Albanian's resolv on being free of Serbian boot.
Ok, bganon, I'll bite. First, the story will probably last beyond this week - it's just too good a story for the ever-victimized Serbs. Accusations have been made and denied, now it's time for an investigation of the charges, probably eventually in a court of law. The UN (Russia) is set on closing down the Hague court, but for this they might be willing to extend its life. Kosovo's courts may simply not have the technical capacity to handle a major trial, and might not be able under its laws to try a sitting prime minister, in any case, although there must be some provision for removal from office (assuming Thaci's the next PM).
Personally, I always thought Thaci was clever enough to stay away from anything actually illegal. His official position during the war was as the KLA spokesman - I'm not sure that can be construed as having command responsibility. We may be treated to extensive discussions of this in the press in the near future.
As for international repercussions, I don't see many. No one ever thought the KLA consisted solely of Boy Scouts, and organized crime is nothing new in the Balkans. Whatever the KLA did, the Albanians in Kosovo deserve to be independent of Serbia and will retain US support. This I base on comments in the Guardian on what the WikiLeak cables showed about US diplomacy: it has two basic principles - for historical reasons, it supports newly independent countries. (And secondly it works to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons). In this case, if the charges are true, the support for Kosovo may involve 'tough love' - insistence on facing unpalatable facts. But the charges have not yet been shown to be facts.
"The real test of Kosovo's legitimacy will be the new state's readiness to call Mr Thaci and other prominent politicians to account." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/real-trial-of-new-nations-readiness-to-confront-thaci/story-e6frg6zo-1225971730477
"So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects." (bganon)
-- I think Ari Gold summed it up best: if Thaci and his cadre are still useful to America, or more likely they pose too much of a risk in exposing possible connections with western leaders/associations, then certain Western powers will do all they can to hamstring the investigation and paint this as another attempt by Belgrade to undermine Kosovo's sovereignty. Remember Kouchner going off his rocker not too long ago when asked by a journalist about the Yellow House? To me that indicated he knew something, or at the very least he and his type get really sensitive when asked to explain their cozy relationship with people like Thaci, Haradinaj, Ceku, et al. If the facts are too apparent and the report is that meticulous, Thaci will be dropped like a hot potato.
Right now, the response in Pristina and among a sizable number of Albanians is expected: indignant rejection of the allegations as a smear-campaign. From the point of view of Thaci, this shouldn't be surprising as he's been protected for too long to think anything will happen to him. If the report however is meticulous enough and public opinion is swayed against him, I fear his political career is over and his own government may drop him off at the ITCY for the sake of keeping their hands clean. No amount of North Korean sounding statements of defiance from the government ministries is worth it.
Let's see what the report brings tomorrow, and let's see the reaction by certain Western powers. But from what it already seems to indicate, this is going to be extremely damning for Pristina and immensely embarrasing for Washington.
if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
(iliri, 15 December 2010 15:35)
Do you have any concrete proof that there are thousands of Albanians lying at the bottom of artificial lakes in Belgrade or are you simply making all of this up in order to seek some kind of self serving justifcation for the actions of wicked men.
"I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted. "
(nikshala, 15 December 2010 14:43)
Hmm, you had the chance some days ago, what have been the results? Thaci got the most votes (manipulated or not)!
And, please, don't tell me that, until this report has been published, you thought Thaci was a clean and not corrupted person.
Wasn't there a time when Albanians yelled from their mountain tops that Milosevic was 'evil', and the Serbs denied this. The Serbs voted him in a few times as well. Then the Serbs turned on him and sent him away.
CAN ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS SIMILARITY?
Serbs said he was innocent, Albanians said he was guilty. Serbs said it was Albanian propaganda. The man was imprissoned for a very long time before his death. Milosevic was never found guilty.
Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
"Marty’s report is further described as “low and bizarre”, and as "coming from people without any moral credibility", while the document “can only bring benefit to certain circles that do not wish well to Kosovo and its citizens”."
How funny. I think there are some other persons who are missing "moral credibility". Persons who are alleged war criminals, connected to mafia structures, and who even manipulate elections. Do I need to mention any names? :-)
If Kosovo really wants to become a state, the first step is to have a government made of honourous persons.
"Now the government in Priština is calling upon "all CoE member states to strongly protest against Marty’s report and not to take the side of those who want to prevent stability, progress and good governance in Kosovo at any cost”."
What. "Good governance" in Kosovo? Under Thaci? I can't stop laughing, the joke of the day!
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
When it suits, Jeremic takes the report as "vey well being". I do know that the reporter has been against Kosovo independence. I also know that tbe reporter is not the Jesus Christ. The so called findings will be challenged in due course. The fate of Thaci is to lead Kosovo for at least another four years, ensure further Kosovo recognitions and stand firm towards Serbia.
Lokk who is talking...if i were jeremic i would be cautious about making any statement, he almost got fired about the Nobel price incident...making such political statements, only reinforces the idea that this is all a serbian political fabrication, that Serbia cares not of finding the truth ...if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
I hope Jeremic is right and this does assist Thaci's downfall (which had begun a while ago).
"Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
(Zoran, 15 December 2010 12:56) "
I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted.
Then hopefully this goverment that is not a EU pawn through threats of corruption & other criminal cases, will make the necessary changes to make Kosovo a better functioning state as wished by the majority: a flag a national hymn of our choice, investments in the army, investments in local economy, real efforts to stop lawlessness in the north, correct proportional representation in the parliament etc.
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
(bganon, 15 December 2010 12:26)
As long as Kosovo proves itself to be more useful to the US (through minimising Serbian, and in turn, Russian influence) then they'll do nothing and will do their best to cover it up. That's why Serbia has to join the European Union ahead of Kosovo and become a good ally to the US, since in the end, they're the ones with the most power and will be able to afford more security to Serbia than Russia. Until the US consider Serbia to be free from Russian influence, they'll always favour Kosovo.
I mean, the only reason the US got involved in the Balkans was to minimise Russian influence, since they knew that basically if Serbia won all the conflicts, a socialist government (i.e. Russian-backed government) would remain, which means less influence for American influence in the Balkans. It's all a game in the end; all this "humanitarian intervention" is nonsense and an excuse, and ANYONE with ANY knowledge of how international politics works will understand that.
Serbs will never be treated fairly by Americans as long as they pick China and Russia ahead of them. I've explained my reasoning before, but, what can I change?
Thaci is just as a war criminal as Milosevic or Tudjman. All of them were bad leaders with no visions to their people. As kids, they ressorted to fight and violence, even war, to settle their differences.
I think that this has wider significance than just Thaci. If it comes out that the western intelligence services knew it all along, it has the potential to drag some big names in the West through the mud eg Kouchner, with his "insane" comment. It will also affect the whole view worldwide of "Kosova" as independent and strengthen Serbia's position. Wikileaks' US diplomatic cables disclosures may well prove very relevant here (no doubt the US will be scrambling even more to knock them out of action). I agree that if the report is adopted that Thaci is history and might find himself in front of some court but it very much depends on the strength of political protection he gets internationally. In any event, he is permanently tainted goods now in international circles.
“Allegations published in The Guardian were investigated by local and international judicial organs several times and it was determined in all cases that such claims were baseless,” the announcement reads.
That is right, the invbestigation prooved nothing, so question is: Why all of sudden this false report?
As for Vuk's comment, he should worry more about his position. Thaci is on solid ground and actually if the talks take place, he(Vuk)would be seen shaking hands with Thaci and cracking a big smile.Time will tell.
You are jelly mr Vuk? Or was it the highest peak of the latest fabrication that you had to comment on.
If you are going from propaganda to propaganda to keep your job, you are acting even more insane than Thaci.
Worst come to worst, Kosovars will face up the court humor, and beat this book.
IF Serbia is so proud of their latest George Clooney and Sharon Stone effect, than they are liable for defamation and libel, if proven as always.
Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
Thaci is just as a war criminal as Milosevic or Tudjman. All of them were bad leaders with no visions to their people. As kids, they ressorted to fight and violence, even war, to settle their differences.
"I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted. "
(nikshala, 15 December 2010 14:43)
Hmm, you had the chance some days ago, what have been the results? Thaci got the most votes (manipulated or not)!
And, please, don't tell me that, until this report has been published, you thought Thaci was a clean and not corrupted person.
I think that this has wider significance than just Thaci. If it comes out that the western intelligence services knew it all along, it has the potential to drag some big names in the West through the mud eg Kouchner, with his "insane" comment. It will also affect the whole view worldwide of "Kosova" as independent and strengthen Serbia's position. Wikileaks' US diplomatic cables disclosures may well prove very relevant here (no doubt the US will be scrambling even more to knock them out of action). I agree that if the report is adopted that Thaci is history and might find himself in front of some court but it very much depends on the strength of political protection he gets internationally. In any event, he is permanently tainted goods now in international circles.
"Now the government in Priština is calling upon "all CoE member states to strongly protest against Marty’s report and not to take the side of those who want to prevent stability, progress and good governance in Kosovo at any cost”."
What. "Good governance" in Kosovo? Under Thaci? I can't stop laughing, the joke of the day!
if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
(iliri, 15 December 2010 15:35)
Do you have any concrete proof that there are thousands of Albanians lying at the bottom of artificial lakes in Belgrade or are you simply making all of this up in order to seek some kind of self serving justifcation for the actions of wicked men.
"So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects." (bganon)
-- I think Ari Gold summed it up best: if Thaci and his cadre are still useful to America, or more likely they pose too much of a risk in exposing possible connections with western leaders/associations, then certain Western powers will do all they can to hamstring the investigation and paint this as another attempt by Belgrade to undermine Kosovo's sovereignty. Remember Kouchner going off his rocker not too long ago when asked by a journalist about the Yellow House? To me that indicated he knew something, or at the very least he and his type get really sensitive when asked to explain their cozy relationship with people like Thaci, Haradinaj, Ceku, et al. If the facts are too apparent and the report is that meticulous, Thaci will be dropped like a hot potato.
Right now, the response in Pristina and among a sizable number of Albanians is expected: indignant rejection of the allegations as a smear-campaign. From the point of view of Thaci, this shouldn't be surprising as he's been protected for too long to think anything will happen to him. If the report however is meticulous enough and public opinion is swayed against him, I fear his political career is over and his own government may drop him off at the ITCY for the sake of keeping their hands clean. No amount of North Korean sounding statements of defiance from the government ministries is worth it.
Let's see what the report brings tomorrow, and let's see the reaction by certain Western powers. But from what it already seems to indicate, this is going to be extremely damning for Pristina and immensely embarrasing for Washington.
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
You are jelly mr Vuk? Or was it the highest peak of the latest fabrication that you had to comment on.
If you are going from propaganda to propaganda to keep your job, you are acting even more insane than Thaci.
Worst come to worst, Kosovars will face up the court humor, and beat this book.
IF Serbia is so proud of their latest George Clooney and Sharon Stone effect, than they are liable for defamation and libel, if proven as always.
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
(bganon, 15 December 2010 12:26)
As long as Kosovo proves itself to be more useful to the US (through minimising Serbian, and in turn, Russian influence) then they'll do nothing and will do their best to cover it up. That's why Serbia has to join the European Union ahead of Kosovo and become a good ally to the US, since in the end, they're the ones with the most power and will be able to afford more security to Serbia than Russia. Until the US consider Serbia to be free from Russian influence, they'll always favour Kosovo.
I mean, the only reason the US got involved in the Balkans was to minimise Russian influence, since they knew that basically if Serbia won all the conflicts, a socialist government (i.e. Russian-backed government) would remain, which means less influence for American influence in the Balkans. It's all a game in the end; all this "humanitarian intervention" is nonsense and an excuse, and ANYONE with ANY knowledge of how international politics works will understand that.
Serbs will never be treated fairly by Americans as long as they pick China and Russia ahead of them. I've explained my reasoning before, but, what can I change?
"Marty’s report is further described as “low and bizarre”, and as "coming from people without any moral credibility", while the document “can only bring benefit to certain circles that do not wish well to Kosovo and its citizens”."
How funny. I think there are some other persons who are missing "moral credibility". Persons who are alleged war criminals, connected to mafia structures, and who even manipulate elections. Do I need to mention any names? :-)
If Kosovo really wants to become a state, the first step is to have a government made of honourous persons.
“Allegations published in The Guardian were investigated by local and international judicial organs several times and it was determined in all cases that such claims were baseless,” the announcement reads.
That is right, the invbestigation prooved nothing, so question is: Why all of sudden this false report?
As for Vuk's comment, he should worry more about his position. Thaci is on solid ground and actually if the talks take place, he(Vuk)would be seen shaking hands with Thaci and cracking a big smile.Time will tell.
Wasn't there a time when Albanians yelled from their mountain tops that Milosevic was 'evil', and the Serbs denied this. The Serbs voted him in a few times as well. Then the Serbs turned on him and sent him away.
CAN ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS SIMILARITY?
Serbs said he was innocent, Albanians said he was guilty. Serbs said it was Albanian propaganda. The man was imprissoned for a very long time before his death. Milosevic was never found guilty.
Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
"The real test of Kosovo's legitimacy will be the new state's readiness to call Mr Thaci and other prominent politicians to account." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/real-trial-of-new-nations-readiness-to-confront-thaci/story-e6frg6zo-1225971730477
I hope Jeremic is right and this does assist Thaci's downfall (which had begun a while ago).
"Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
(Zoran, 15 December 2010 12:56) "
I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted.
Then hopefully this goverment that is not a EU pawn through threats of corruption & other criminal cases, will make the necessary changes to make Kosovo a better functioning state as wished by the majority: a flag a national hymn of our choice, investments in the army, investments in local economy, real efforts to stop lawlessness in the north, correct proportional representation in the parliament etc.
That's how it starts., embarrassment, accusation, prosecution and there you go.. Hashim Thaci should better quit smoking while he's free.
(ZMAJ, 15 December 2010 16:29)
Obviously you don't know anything about Snake. He is a none smoker, and Serbia did not win a big victory , but ,ost certanly Thaci did. I am sure that you don't know K-Albanian's resolv on being free of Serbian boot.
why gettin so surprised, type this guy's name on google and you will find pages and pages of negative publicity, so what's the fuss about it !!
Maybe he thougt that by being "choosen" by the americans he got whiter than Ariel can do....
Ok, bganon, I'll bite. First, the story will probably last beyond this week - it's just too good a story for the ever-victimized Serbs. Accusations have been made and denied, now it's time for an investigation of the charges, probably eventually in a court of law. The UN (Russia) is set on closing down the Hague court, but for this they might be willing to extend its life. Kosovo's courts may simply not have the technical capacity to handle a major trial, and might not be able under its laws to try a sitting prime minister, in any case, although there must be some provision for removal from office (assuming Thaci's the next PM).
Personally, I always thought Thaci was clever enough to stay away from anything actually illegal. His official position during the war was as the KLA spokesman - I'm not sure that can be construed as having command responsibility. We may be treated to extensive discussions of this in the press in the near future.
As for international repercussions, I don't see many. No one ever thought the KLA consisted solely of Boy Scouts, and organized crime is nothing new in the Balkans. Whatever the KLA did, the Albanians in Kosovo deserve to be independent of Serbia and will retain US support. This I base on comments in the Guardian on what the WikiLeak cables showed about US diplomacy: it has two basic principles - for historical reasons, it supports newly independent countries. (And secondly it works to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons). In this case, if the charges are true, the support for Kosovo may involve 'tough love' - insistence on facing unpalatable facts. But the charges have not yet been shown to be facts.
I'm so happy to see serbs happy today, even though majority of you are spitting on your neighbor's face. You all forgot that crimes need to be accompanied by evidence, else they're just conspiracy theories (something you people love).
Don't forget, you're harboring MLADIC in Serbia. No EU for you!! PS what's the debt now, 38% of GDP, 39%?
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
When it suits, Jeremic takes the report as "vey well being". I do know that the reporter has been against Kosovo independence. I also know that tbe reporter is not the Jesus Christ. The so called findings will be challenged in due course. The fate of Thaci is to lead Kosovo for at least another four years, ensure further Kosovo recognitions and stand firm towards Serbia.
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
-- He is going to have the sort of future where you'll be shaking his hand sooner rather than later. You can bet on that.
Now there are a few things here that are quite odd.
1. Nobody has ever, and I mean ever presented any proof about this. Be it Del Ponte, Marti, The Serbian side, or even previous international investigations. As we all know there have indeed been previous international investigation before. Up until now this has not passed the level of rumors and hearsay. Somehow it seems someone profits more from rumors than an actual investigation that brings truth to light.
2. That becomes more convincing when we consider that for the last two years since these rumors have started neither the President of Serbia nor its Foreign Minister have requested a thorough international investigation in the UNSC meetings on Kosova;an investigation from international investigative bodies. This is quite odd when one considers that they've been screaming for such investigations in UNSC meetings about a few cut phone lines; yet they've never attempted to request an investigation in these meetings about organ trafficking. It is quite strange that phone lines take priority over organ trafficking in the Serb foreign affairs agenda. It seems that a phone line holds more importance than a human organ in the Serb foreign agenda. At least it has had more importance from 1999 to now; when talks are about to be launched. Either that or the state of Serbia is not actually interested in a thorough international investigation on this issue; that has the seal of approval from the UNSC and which might actually bring an end once and for all to these rumors.
3. The timing is very interesting. The day after Thaci wins majority of the popular vote. A few weeks before the talks. On the day that Jeremic leaves for Russia. This might be a total speculation but it seems that the Russian directive to Serbia and through Marty is to weaken the position of the West, and Kosova in these talks through such allegations but also cause an institutional crisis in Kosova which would weaken the position of Kosova as an entity but which also might eventually lead to unrest. A situation that may suit Serbia very well, hoping at the very least for a formal partition of Kosova. This may actually backfire and cause the West and Kosova to coordinate with each other in a tighter fashion and cause the actual Kosova population to gather and support their institutions against moves perceived to be launched by Moscow. We'll see how it will work.
4. It is very odd and quite interesting that more than 24 hours have passed after this news and it seems that neither the President nor the Foreign Minister of Serbia have asked for a thorough international investigation. It is quite strange indeed. It seems as if they're more interested in rumors than an actual investigation that goes to the bottom of this. They seem to always shy away from requesting an international investigation and avoid asking for such an investigation. It seems quite odd that Serbia would request an urgent UNSC meeting over a hand grenade thrown from unknown people in a crowd demonstrating in a Serb town, yet refuse to call for such an urgent meeting for the last two years even though it maintains it has ultimate proof over organ trafficking. It still refuses to call for such an urgent meeting even 24 hours after Marty's report details cam to light. This is a very strange position from the Serb state. One that seems to avoid the ultimate truth through and actual international investigation and rather prefers and puts more value on rumors and allegations. One has to question the true intentions of such attitude from the Serb government.
5. Seeing that Moscow is hell bent on ending Hague's mandate on the Balkans, these allegations may be very instrumental to Moscow. Claiming that Hague prosecutors did not do their job hence Hague's mandate should end. An end of Hague's mandate also suits Serbia very well, since without Hague, there will be no cooperation with Hague condition in order to join the EU.
Having said all that; as an Albanian I am hoping for an international investigation, through international investigative bodies and that has the seal of approval of the UN; lead by professionals and not politicians like Marty and where no Serb or Albanian has a role. This seems to be obviously what the Serb government wants to avoid. Otherwise it current attitude and reluctance to ask for what I and many Albanians are asking is very odd; leaving ample room to question their intentions.
"Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing. "
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
Correct! A agree! But, unfortunately, as you could see from the results of the lates elections, Kosovo Albanians are not grown up yet, and they voted again for Thaci.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
======================
Can you point to a clean western leader?
This is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant here is that Thaci is a monster.
How many other leaders do you know of that have resorted to organ harvesting from their victims?
Yes all leaders are corrupt to an extent but nobody compares to this.
Do you put anyone else in the same basket as this demon.
Lokk who is talking...if i were jeremic i would be cautious about making any statement, he almost got fired about the Nobel price incident...making such political statements, only reinforces the idea that this is all a serbian political fabrication, that Serbia cares not of finding the truth ...if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that!
2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue.
3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.
4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now.
5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this.
I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything. In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not. Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor.
Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him.
Koso,
are you aware that it seems that you don't even read through your post. Do you have evidence that Mladic is in Serbia? No you don't! Thus you're promoting your conspiracy theory. Are you Serbian? You said Serbs love CT. Or do Albanians love CT too?
Peggy,
without evidence and a fair representation of that evidence I cannot, nor am willing to step out onto a limb and isolate just one leader.
Though I fully agree with your retort that it is not just a sickness of Balkan leaders, but of many, and likely most leaders the world over.
The problem lies in the constant finger pointing. It's almost like watching a match of political tennis played by deaf-dumb-and-blind-kids.
There is also this somewhat immature part of many of us that believe in the notion of truth and fairness. These two things have rarely if ever existed at the high levels of society. We have large portions of the Balkan societies that are waiting for fairness and truth, and will not budge from their ideological positions until such a time. That time may not ever come, and those people that are waiting for it will continue to marginalize themselves into a state of helplessness and depression. Things that are out of one's own control should never be weighed too heavily on one's todo list. Yes, I would like to see truth emerge from the ashes of the former Yugoslavia, but I will not hold my breath for that. However, I suspect that there will be a time when desperation leads to acceptance of reality on a large scale and a majority of the Balkan's peoples are ready to simply move forward.
"1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that! "
-- Sure; if it is proven that will happen. I'll be the first one to join you. Until this thing goes through a court and when Serbia finally starts asking for it to go through the international justice systems and official channels you might get it. As long as Serbia shies away from the official channels and the international justice system; it only leads to question Serbia's intentions.
"2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue."
-- Lame excuse. Serbia's investigation ended at least one year ago. There was an article about that here on B92. That was immediately after Marty and the Serb prosecutor thought they could do as they wish in Albania without any proper or official authorization from any international body. Remember they showed up in the yellow house without authorization from the EU, UN, or Albania. Not only that but these allegations have been going around since 1999, prior to Serbia starting its investigation. Serbia's silence on this issue is not very odd but quite compromising. Serbia has had years to request in the UNSC an investigation. For years it has failed to do so. This is very strange. It makes noise all around the world for a phone line yet doesn't bother requesting an investigation over organs for years. This is an odd behavior.
"3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.?"
-- It could very well be coordinated. Yea have and MP with clear anti US and sometime anti-Western leanings. A very interested Moscow, and Serbia that would benefit most from such rumors ahead of talks. Coordination might indeed be a scenario. This report could have very well been published last week. However that wouldn't be as damaging to Kosova seeing that might have cause Thaci to lose.
"4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now. "
-- It is in the best political interest for them not to speak and let the allegations fester. However it is in the worst interest of those who seek the truth not to speak now. Now is the time when they should have been urgently seeking an UNSC meeting and request and investigation. Their silence is very telling and leaves a lot to questioned about their intentions in seeking the truth.
"5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this. "
-- Russia has been wanting to close the Hague for a while now. This may be used for their justification. Not totally out of the question. As for Mladic doubt that'll happen.
"I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything."
-- Use google translate. You will be kindly surprised. What you say is absolutely not true. Hit the comment sections of a few of Albania's and Kosova's most visited websites.
"In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not."
-- Two things here. As said before, this is absolutely not true. It is quite obvious that you do not follow Albanian media.
Second, the Serbs have been dying for a shot at the equalization of crimes. Whether this turns out to be true or not, equalization is a figment of imagination in the Serbs' minds. Thousands dead and a million ethnically cleansed. When you see Albanians do that in Belgrade then Serbs may be onto something
"Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor. "
-- Hypotheticals. I still fail to see the logic in the silence of the Serb leadership and their failure to urgently gather a UN meeting and ask for an international investigation. Its as if with their silence they are seeking to silence the truth.
"Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him."
-- It is interesting that the first who asked for proof and a thorough investigation on this report are EU bodies; not Serbia. While this report may or may not be enough to end political support for Thaci is of no importance. When and if Thaci goes someone else will fill that position. What is of utmost importance is being compromised by Serbia's silence. Serbia remains silent rather than urgently seeking an international investigation to reveal the truth. Its as if they're more concerned about Thaci's political career than the truth.
"There will be no defamation action."
-- Not after this report. Expect it if ever Serbia get the cojones to ask the UN for an international investigation. If that reveals it then I'll be first in line. Until Serbia gets the cojones; do not expect anything. We need an investigation to seek the truth. This report should be used for seeking an investigation and finding the truth. Since Serbia doesn't seem to be interested in that or calling for an investigation it means Serbia isn't interested in revealing the truth.
Koso,
I'm not sure what you're refering to. It wasn't my reply or even your post. You mentioned Conspiracy Theory, while at the same time as propogating one yourself. It is irrelevant how much Serbian cooperation you, or I have percieved, considering you and I have no idea where Mladic is, while you are suggesting that you do. Not that Conspiracy Theories cannot be correct at times, but again you don't know, and are theorising a conspiracy.
And yes, I read a variety of news sources, on a variety of topics. I watch a variety of sourced documentaries regarding this and other topics. I wasn't discussing what and how much we know, but rather how much we THINK we know, what we THINK we've figured out. Unless you have his current address, an electric bill perhaps then your claims are simply conspiratorial.
The moral indignation of the Kalb trolls here is hilarious. They are either blind or stupid not to have known that their leaders were a bunch of narco trafficking organ stealers. In the days of Yugoslavia everyone knew what the KLA were, and to an extent Kosovo was talked about with disdain and revolt. Although no fan of Milosevic et al, he knew what they were and went in heavy. Wouldn't you have?
You don't see Serb here calling for an international investigation. Instead they're extatic over the media hype. Shameful; to see Albanians calling for investigations while Serbs are happy because of the news articles.
“Allegations published in The Guardian were investigated by local and international judicial organs several times and it was determined in all cases that such claims were baseless,” the announcement reads.
That is right, the invbestigation prooved nothing, so question is: Why all of sudden this false report?
As for Vuk's comment, he should worry more about his position. Thaci is on solid ground and actually if the talks take place, he(Vuk)would be seen shaking hands with Thaci and cracking a big smile.Time will tell.
You are jelly mr Vuk? Or was it the highest peak of the latest fabrication that you had to comment on.
If you are going from propaganda to propaganda to keep your job, you are acting even more insane than Thaci.
Worst come to worst, Kosovars will face up the court humor, and beat this book.
IF Serbia is so proud of their latest George Clooney and Sharon Stone effect, than they are liable for defamation and libel, if proven as always.
That's how it starts., embarrassment, accusation, prosecution and there you go.. Hashim Thaci should better quit smoking while he's free.
(ZMAJ, 15 December 2010 16:29)
Obviously you don't know anything about Snake. He is a none smoker, and Serbia did not win a big victory , but ,ost certanly Thaci did. I am sure that you don't know K-Albanian's resolv on being free of Serbian boot.
Lokk who is talking...if i were jeremic i would be cautious about making any statement, he almost got fired about the Nobel price incident...making such political statements, only reinforces the idea that this is all a serbian political fabrication, that Serbia cares not of finding the truth ...if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
I'm so happy to see serbs happy today, even though majority of you are spitting on your neighbor's face. You all forgot that crimes need to be accompanied by evidence, else they're just conspiracy theories (something you people love).
Don't forget, you're harboring MLADIC in Serbia. No EU for you!! PS what's the debt now, 38% of GDP, 39%?
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
When it suits, Jeremic takes the report as "vey well being". I do know that the reporter has been against Kosovo independence. I also know that tbe reporter is not the Jesus Christ. The so called findings will be challenged in due course. The fate of Thaci is to lead Kosovo for at least another four years, ensure further Kosovo recognitions and stand firm towards Serbia.
I think that this has wider significance than just Thaci. If it comes out that the western intelligence services knew it all along, it has the potential to drag some big names in the West through the mud eg Kouchner, with his "insane" comment. It will also affect the whole view worldwide of "Kosova" as independent and strengthen Serbia's position. Wikileaks' US diplomatic cables disclosures may well prove very relevant here (no doubt the US will be scrambling even more to knock them out of action). I agree that if the report is adopted that Thaci is history and might find himself in front of some court but it very much depends on the strength of political protection he gets internationally. In any event, he is permanently tainted goods now in international circles.
Thaci is just as a war criminal as Milosevic or Tudjman. All of them were bad leaders with no visions to their people. As kids, they ressorted to fight and violence, even war, to settle their differences.
"I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted. "
(nikshala, 15 December 2010 14:43)
Hmm, you had the chance some days ago, what have been the results? Thaci got the most votes (manipulated or not)!
And, please, don't tell me that, until this report has been published, you thought Thaci was a clean and not corrupted person.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
======================
Can you point to a clean western leader?
This is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant here is that Thaci is a monster.
How many other leaders do you know of that have resorted to organ harvesting from their victims?
Yes all leaders are corrupt to an extent but nobody compares to this.
Do you put anyone else in the same basket as this demon.
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
"Now the government in Priština is calling upon "all CoE member states to strongly protest against Marty’s report and not to take the side of those who want to prevent stability, progress and good governance in Kosovo at any cost”."
What. "Good governance" in Kosovo? Under Thaci? I can't stop laughing, the joke of the day!
if Serbia wants the truth, how about starting by catching mladic, and how about finding the five thousand albanian bodies lying at the bottom of some artifical lake in beograd and raska...
(iliri, 15 December 2010 15:35)
Do you have any concrete proof that there are thousands of Albanians lying at the bottom of artificial lakes in Belgrade or are you simply making all of this up in order to seek some kind of self serving justifcation for the actions of wicked men.
Ok, bganon, I'll bite. First, the story will probably last beyond this week - it's just too good a story for the ever-victimized Serbs. Accusations have been made and denied, now it's time for an investigation of the charges, probably eventually in a court of law. The UN (Russia) is set on closing down the Hague court, but for this they might be willing to extend its life. Kosovo's courts may simply not have the technical capacity to handle a major trial, and might not be able under its laws to try a sitting prime minister, in any case, although there must be some provision for removal from office (assuming Thaci's the next PM).
Personally, I always thought Thaci was clever enough to stay away from anything actually illegal. His official position during the war was as the KLA spokesman - I'm not sure that can be construed as having command responsibility. We may be treated to extensive discussions of this in the press in the near future.
As for international repercussions, I don't see many. No one ever thought the KLA consisted solely of Boy Scouts, and organized crime is nothing new in the Balkans. Whatever the KLA did, the Albanians in Kosovo deserve to be independent of Serbia and will retain US support. This I base on comments in the Guardian on what the WikiLeak cables showed about US diplomacy: it has two basic principles - for historical reasons, it supports newly independent countries. (And secondly it works to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons). In this case, if the charges are true, the support for Kosovo may involve 'tough love' - insistence on facing unpalatable facts. But the charges have not yet been shown to be facts.
"So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects." (bganon)
-- I think Ari Gold summed it up best: if Thaci and his cadre are still useful to America, or more likely they pose too much of a risk in exposing possible connections with western leaders/associations, then certain Western powers will do all they can to hamstring the investigation and paint this as another attempt by Belgrade to undermine Kosovo's sovereignty. Remember Kouchner going off his rocker not too long ago when asked by a journalist about the Yellow House? To me that indicated he knew something, or at the very least he and his type get really sensitive when asked to explain their cozy relationship with people like Thaci, Haradinaj, Ceku, et al. If the facts are too apparent and the report is that meticulous, Thaci will be dropped like a hot potato.
Right now, the response in Pristina and among a sizable number of Albanians is expected: indignant rejection of the allegations as a smear-campaign. From the point of view of Thaci, this shouldn't be surprising as he's been protected for too long to think anything will happen to him. If the report however is meticulous enough and public opinion is swayed against him, I fear his political career is over and his own government may drop him off at the ITCY for the sake of keeping their hands clean. No amount of North Korean sounding statements of defiance from the government ministries is worth it.
Let's see what the report brings tomorrow, and let's see the reaction by certain Western powers. But from what it already seems to indicate, this is going to be extremely damning for Pristina and immensely embarrasing for Washington.
"Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing. "
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
(Paul, 15 December 2010 16:15)
Correct! A agree! But, unfortunately, as you could see from the results of the lates elections, Kosovo Albanians are not grown up yet, and they voted again for Thaci.
why gettin so surprised, type this guy's name on google and you will find pages and pages of negative publicity, so what's the fuss about it !!
Maybe he thougt that by being "choosen" by the americans he got whiter than Ariel can do....
"I don't know what sort of future this person has if you take into account the report about the investigation from the Council of Europe about his participation in the heroin trade, human trafficking and human organs and his role as the head of one of the most organized criminal-mafia clans in the Balkans," Reuters quoted the Serbian FM as saying.
-- He is going to have the sort of future where you'll be shaking his hand sooner rather than later. You can bet on that.
Now there are a few things here that are quite odd.
1. Nobody has ever, and I mean ever presented any proof about this. Be it Del Ponte, Marti, The Serbian side, or even previous international investigations. As we all know there have indeed been previous international investigation before. Up until now this has not passed the level of rumors and hearsay. Somehow it seems someone profits more from rumors than an actual investigation that brings truth to light.
2. That becomes more convincing when we consider that for the last two years since these rumors have started neither the President of Serbia nor its Foreign Minister have requested a thorough international investigation in the UNSC meetings on Kosova;an investigation from international investigative bodies. This is quite odd when one considers that they've been screaming for such investigations in UNSC meetings about a few cut phone lines; yet they've never attempted to request an investigation in these meetings about organ trafficking. It is quite strange that phone lines take priority over organ trafficking in the Serb foreign affairs agenda. It seems that a phone line holds more importance than a human organ in the Serb foreign agenda. At least it has had more importance from 1999 to now; when talks are about to be launched. Either that or the state of Serbia is not actually interested in a thorough international investigation on this issue; that has the seal of approval from the UNSC and which might actually bring an end once and for all to these rumors.
3. The timing is very interesting. The day after Thaci wins majority of the popular vote. A few weeks before the talks. On the day that Jeremic leaves for Russia. This might be a total speculation but it seems that the Russian directive to Serbia and through Marty is to weaken the position of the West, and Kosova in these talks through such allegations but also cause an institutional crisis in Kosova which would weaken the position of Kosova as an entity but which also might eventually lead to unrest. A situation that may suit Serbia very well, hoping at the very least for a formal partition of Kosova. This may actually backfire and cause the West and Kosova to coordinate with each other in a tighter fashion and cause the actual Kosova population to gather and support their institutions against moves perceived to be launched by Moscow. We'll see how it will work.
4. It is very odd and quite interesting that more than 24 hours have passed after this news and it seems that neither the President nor the Foreign Minister of Serbia have asked for a thorough international investigation. It is quite strange indeed. It seems as if they're more interested in rumors than an actual investigation that goes to the bottom of this. They seem to always shy away from requesting an international investigation and avoid asking for such an investigation. It seems quite odd that Serbia would request an urgent UNSC meeting over a hand grenade thrown from unknown people in a crowd demonstrating in a Serb town, yet refuse to call for such an urgent meeting for the last two years even though it maintains it has ultimate proof over organ trafficking. It still refuses to call for such an urgent meeting even 24 hours after Marty's report details cam to light. This is a very strange position from the Serb state. One that seems to avoid the ultimate truth through and actual international investigation and rather prefers and puts more value on rumors and allegations. One has to question the true intentions of such attitude from the Serb government.
5. Seeing that Moscow is hell bent on ending Hague's mandate on the Balkans, these allegations may be very instrumental to Moscow. Claiming that Hague prosecutors did not do their job hence Hague's mandate should end. An end of Hague's mandate also suits Serbia very well, since without Hague, there will be no cooperation with Hague condition in order to join the EU.
Having said all that; as an Albanian I am hoping for an international investigation, through international investigative bodies and that has the seal of approval of the UN; lead by professionals and not politicians like Marty and where no Serb or Albanian has a role. This seems to be obviously what the Serb government wants to avoid. Otherwise it current attitude and reluctance to ask for what I and many Albanians are asking is very odd; leaving ample room to question their intentions.
I hope Jeremic is right and this does assist Thaci's downfall (which had begun a while ago).
"Hmm, I wonder if some countries will start to reconsider their recognitions of "Kosova". Surely many wouldn't want to support a criminal and terrorist run entity?
(Zoran, 15 December 2010 12:56) "
I know you would wish that, but from our perspective (albanian) we will elect other leaders who are clean and not corrupted.
Then hopefully this goverment that is not a EU pawn through threats of corruption & other criminal cases, will make the necessary changes to make Kosovo a better functioning state as wished by the majority: a flag a national hymn of our choice, investments in the army, investments in local economy, real efforts to stop lawlessness in the north, correct proportional representation in the parliament etc.
"Marty’s report is further described as “low and bizarre”, and as "coming from people without any moral credibility", while the document “can only bring benefit to certain circles that do not wish well to Kosovo and its citizens”."
How funny. I think there are some other persons who are missing "moral credibility". Persons who are alleged war criminals, connected to mafia structures, and who even manipulate elections. Do I need to mention any names? :-)
If Kosovo really wants to become a state, the first step is to have a government made of honourous persons.
I'm not sure what will happen next. Probably nobody is.
The fact is that this will drag out all week as the official report is due to tomorrow.
Is there any legal basis to begin proceedings against Thaci and which entity would bring such charges? Would international authorities risk bringing charges against a Prime Minister incumbent? Particularly so, most of the Kosovo Albanian media has supported Thaci so stongly directly / indirectly through denying the reports. The same is true for his political opponents - they have supported him. Thaci must feel that at home at least his position is shored up to some degree. On the other hand this is a humiliation internationally and at home also. How long will it be before opposition politicians / media break cover and turn against him?
How will this now affect negotiations which were scheduled to begin early next year? Internationals will surely be more patient to Serbian hesitancy to negotiate with a man accused by the EU of war crimes and of being essentially a mafia boss.
So, I'd like to ask all of you for your thoughts on these subjects.
We had the condemnation / rejection of what happened yesterday. My question is what will happen tomorrow and the future, if anybody will take a guess.
(bganon, 15 December 2010 12:26)
As long as Kosovo proves itself to be more useful to the US (through minimising Serbian, and in turn, Russian influence) then they'll do nothing and will do their best to cover it up. That's why Serbia has to join the European Union ahead of Kosovo and become a good ally to the US, since in the end, they're the ones with the most power and will be able to afford more security to Serbia than Russia. Until the US consider Serbia to be free from Russian influence, they'll always favour Kosovo.
I mean, the only reason the US got involved in the Balkans was to minimise Russian influence, since they knew that basically if Serbia won all the conflicts, a socialist government (i.e. Russian-backed government) would remain, which means less influence for American influence in the Balkans. It's all a game in the end; all this "humanitarian intervention" is nonsense and an excuse, and ANYONE with ANY knowledge of how international politics works will understand that.
Serbs will never be treated fairly by Americans as long as they pick China and Russia ahead of them. I've explained my reasoning before, but, what can I change?
Wasn't there a time when Albanians yelled from their mountain tops that Milosevic was 'evil', and the Serbs denied this. The Serbs voted him in a few times as well. Then the Serbs turned on him and sent him away.
CAN ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS SIMILARITY?
Serbs said he was innocent, Albanians said he was guilty. Serbs said it was Albanian propaganda. The man was imprissoned for a very long time before his death. Milosevic was never found guilty.
Now it is all reversed.
Kosovo. Time to grow up. Send your leader away and show that you too can act like a responsible state. Serbia did it eventually.
Similarly Albanians laugh when Serbs claim propaganda when the story is about a 'bad' serb, now the boot is on the other foot and Albanians are crying propaganada, while serbs are laughing.
NOT ONE BALKAN LEADER IS CLEAN.
"The real test of Kosovo's legitimacy will be the new state's readiness to call Mr Thaci and other prominent politicians to account." http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/real-trial-of-new-nations-readiness-to-confront-thaci/story-e6frg6zo-1225971730477
1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that!
2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue.
3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.
4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now.
5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this.
I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything. In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not. Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor.
Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him.
Peggy,
without evidence and a fair representation of that evidence I cannot, nor am willing to step out onto a limb and isolate just one leader.
Though I fully agree with your retort that it is not just a sickness of Balkan leaders, but of many, and likely most leaders the world over.
The problem lies in the constant finger pointing. It's almost like watching a match of political tennis played by deaf-dumb-and-blind-kids.
There is also this somewhat immature part of many of us that believe in the notion of truth and fairness. These two things have rarely if ever existed at the high levels of society. We have large portions of the Balkan societies that are waiting for fairness and truth, and will not budge from their ideological positions until such a time. That time may not ever come, and those people that are waiting for it will continue to marginalize themselves into a state of helplessness and depression. Things that are out of one's own control should never be weighed too heavily on one's todo list. Yes, I would like to see truth emerge from the ashes of the former Yugoslavia, but I will not hold my breath for that. However, I suspect that there will be a time when desperation leads to acceptance of reality on a large scale and a majority of the Balkan's peoples are ready to simply move forward.
Koso,
are you aware that it seems that you don't even read through your post. Do you have evidence that Mladic is in Serbia? No you don't! Thus you're promoting your conspiracy theory. Are you Serbian? You said Serbs love CT. Or do Albanians love CT too?
The moral indignation of the Kalb trolls here is hilarious. They are either blind or stupid not to have known that their leaders were a bunch of narco trafficking organ stealers. In the days of Yugoslavia everyone knew what the KLA were, and to an extent Kosovo was talked about with disdain and revolt. Although no fan of Milosevic et al, he knew what they were and went in heavy. Wouldn't you have?
Koso,
I'm not sure what you're refering to. It wasn't my reply or even your post. You mentioned Conspiracy Theory, while at the same time as propogating one yourself. It is irrelevant how much Serbian cooperation you, or I have percieved, considering you and I have no idea where Mladic is, while you are suggesting that you do. Not that Conspiracy Theories cannot be correct at times, but again you don't know, and are theorising a conspiracy.
And yes, I read a variety of news sources, on a variety of topics. I watch a variety of sourced documentaries regarding this and other topics. I wasn't discussing what and how much we know, but rather how much we THINK we know, what we THINK we've figured out. Unless you have his current address, an electric bill perhaps then your claims are simply conspiratorial.
"1. There is evidence that suggest such things happened albeit not as yet conclusive. The draft report makes it clear that, in the interests of stability, justice was not properly pursued. I’d like to see a defamation action against that! "
-- Sure; if it is proven that will happen. I'll be the first one to join you. Until this thing goes through a court and when Serbia finally starts asking for it to go through the international justice systems and official channels you might get it. As long as Serbia shies away from the official channels and the international justice system; it only leads to question Serbia's intentions.
"2. It would not be appropriate for the politicians of Serbia to comment whilst its judicial organs were investigating such matters. That’s the European way. Phone lines are a current political issue."
-- Lame excuse. Serbia's investigation ended at least one year ago. There was an article about that here on B92. That was immediately after Marty and the Serb prosecutor thought they could do as they wish in Albania without any proper or official authorization from any international body. Remember they showed up in the yellow house without authorization from the EU, UN, or Albania. Not only that but these allegations have been going around since 1999, prior to Serbia starting its investigation. Serbia's silence on this issue is not very odd but quite compromising. Serbia has had years to request in the UNSC an investigation. For years it has failed to do so. This is very strange. It makes noise all around the world for a phone line yet doesn't bother requesting an investigation over organs for years. This is an odd behavior.
"3. The timing of the leak is interesting but I don’t think that had any influence from Serbia. It wasn’t the Serbian media who broke the story.?"
-- It could very well be coordinated. Yea have and MP with clear anti US and sometime anti-Western leanings. A very interested Moscow, and Serbia that would benefit most from such rumors ahead of talks. Coordination might indeed be a scenario. This report could have very well been published last week. However that wouldn't be as damaging to Kosova seeing that might have cause Thaci to lose.
"4. It is best for the President and the FM to say nothing just now. "
-- It is in the best political interest for them not to speak and let the allegations fester. However it is in the worst interest of those who seek the truth not to speak now. Now is the time when they should have been urgently seeking an UNSC meeting and request and investigation. Their silence is very telling and leaves a lot to questioned about their intentions in seeking the truth.
"5. The Hague will see Mladic one day unless he is dead. That has nothing to do with this. "
-- Russia has been wanting to close the Hague for a while now. This may be used for their justification. Not totally out of the question. As for Mladic doubt that'll happen.
"I’m glad that as an Albanian that you want an international investigation but I think you missed the point. I think the target of this report is as much the wall of silence in Albania and Kosovo as anything."
-- Use google translate. You will be kindly surprised. What you say is absolutely not true. Hit the comment sections of a few of Albania's and Kosova's most visited websites.
"In Serbia there are people who are calling for crimes committed in their name to be punished. In Kosovo (and Albania) there is not."
-- Two things here. As said before, this is absolutely not true. It is quite obvious that you do not follow Albanian media.
Second, the Serbs have been dying for a shot at the equalization of crimes. Whether this turns out to be true or not, equalization is a figment of imagination in the Serbs' minds. Thousands dead and a million ethnically cleansed. When you see Albanians do that in Belgrade then Serbs may be onto something
"Of course, maybe there were no crimes! This case won’t be proved because what should not happen cannot happen and if it did then keep your mouth shut and don’t be a traitor. "
-- Hypotheticals. I still fail to see the logic in the silence of the Serb leadership and their failure to urgently gather a UN meeting and ask for an international investigation. Its as if with their silence they are seeking to silence the truth.
"Rest assured that the US, UK, Germany et al know the links between Thaci and organised crime. In 1999 he was very powerful. They are compromising for stability. This draft report may or may not be enough to end that political support to him."
-- It is interesting that the first who asked for proof and a thorough investigation on this report are EU bodies; not Serbia. While this report may or may not be enough to end political support for Thaci is of no importance. When and if Thaci goes someone else will fill that position. What is of utmost importance is being compromised by Serbia's silence. Serbia remains silent rather than urgently seeking an international investigation to reveal the truth. Its as if they're more concerned about Thaci's political career than the truth.
"There will be no defamation action."
-- Not after this report. Expect it if ever Serbia get the cojones to ask the UN for an international investigation. If that reveals it then I'll be first in line. Until Serbia gets the cojones; do not expect anything. We need an investigation to seek the truth. This report should be used for seeking an investigation and finding the truth. Since Serbia doesn't seem to be interested in that or calling for an investigation it means Serbia isn't interested in revealing the truth.
You don't see Serb here calling for an international investigation. Instead they're extatic over the media hype. Shameful; to see Albanians calling for investigations while Serbs are happy because of the news articles.
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