Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
(szemi, 14 December 2010 21:51)
Make sure there is enough wine in that cellar, than I join.
And let him out if he is less grumpy.
Not a bad treatment because red wine has some serious anti-oxydants.
Good boys get Baywood Ruby Cabernet.
Bad boys get Kövidinka (wine is "kövi", who drinks is "dinka")
Orbánka gets Kádárka
Kim Jong Il gets nothing (semmi köze a tökéhez!)
And I have to work now, was doing nothing the day and enough of silliness.
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
The sheer appearance of the Red Army around Dohány Street did made my father less hungry: he got bread. Later he was able to start a scientific carrier in Moscow. There is a difference between starting a scientific carrier or getting a bullet like unfortunate Miklós Radnóti did.
For the Hungarian branch of my family the Red Army was the liberator force, the choice of "life" in the "life or death" question. You were in very different situation, sorry for that.
"you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies."
(je¿ ludobójny, 14 December 2010 11:28)
Well, i'll try to give you a few hints on that. You might want to talk to Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and so many others.
Talk with the survivors of the Konigsberg area, today's Kaliningrad. You will find them in Kazakhstan where the Red Army commanded by the big Mustache took them. Or with the descendants of the Greeks of Odessa and Caucasus, or the Ingusci and Chechens (whose deportations to Kazakhstan were classified as genocide by the European Parliament by the way). More of anything you might want to talk or read from Russians themselves. You might want to talk with the survivors of the Russian diaspora in Eastern Europe from before the October revolution, or read the stories of what happened to them when the Red Army arrived there. You might also want to talk with the descendants of the so called Kulaks. If you can find any who survived. The backbone of Russia exterminated by the Red Army, Beria, and the Big Mustache.
The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
Beppino,
It is written writing not righting.So practice spelling before starting that book.(Also not a disadventage if you want to run for public office)I wish you were succesful.
If it becomes a bestseller even a movie could be made based on that book and I would play myself in it.A bad blood thirsty far right guy who has to be civilized according to your brilliant ideas.
In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 20:38)
Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
(Je¿ frankistowskiej Hiszpanii, 14 December 2010 20:46)
Ёжи these days confuses a lot of things.Reading his recent comments I am a bit worried about his health.Winter darkness?Lack of vitamins?Something else?
Just check this:
So thank you again of having so much concern for me but I can reassure you my life is not miserable at all. Once I stop working (I have no plans yet) maybe I will run for a public office. Many people did it in the US, one of theme became a two-term president.
(Joe, 11 December 2010 17:14)
Like a six year old kid dreaming about becoming a president and now this idea with book writing given his very basic writing skills and relativly poor english compared to the time he has spent in US.And when does he plan to start all those things? :At the age of 120?
"You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army."
Ataman
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
This reminds me of a story my sister told me in October. During communism when her children were young one day in school they had to write about Russians. My nephew wrote that "I don't like the Russians because during WWII when they arrived the moment my grand-father saw them he died instantly". The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
#1: atrocities against civilians.
This was widespread.
- French did "pay back" Germans a lot, rape of German women was very widespread, rarely punished.
- One of the biggest "enemy" of Red Army were STD-s, transmitted from one soldier to an other via third-party (raped women). It was a serious issue to address because it affected fighting capabilities
- Germans did not rape, they killed many civilians by applying "punishing batalions" (very common in CZ, PL, YU, SU)
- During Spanish civil war the army of Franko pillaged and raped Spanish countryside that even most conservative "falangists" protested. According General Llepo "there is nothing wrong, it shows the vitality of our soldiers".
and many-many more. Each individual case was of course war crime.
#2: mandated, pre-set, planned extermination of a large group of civilian or non-fighing enemy soldiers
This was not very common. I am not aware, it was part of tactics employed by Franco or Mussolini (the infamous Guernica was carried over by Germans!). Neither by French or Soviet armies. It was, however, used by British, German and American forces.
This is not about "sympathies" since not much sympathy can Mussolini or even Franco remembered with (however, there is some controversy around Franco). But who did deploy such tactics were plainly war criminals straight and no excuse.
"Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography '
szemi
Like all farright JOBBIK you proved again that you can write only personal insults. With people like you it is a total waist to communicate. I will try to reduce it in the future to cases when reminding others to your lies, insultes and calumnies is a moral obligation.
You can't write you are telling me. I knew that for a long time. To aleviate to your shortcoming you resort to insults. This is the only thing you know. You friends attacking the Hungarian TV building and camping around for days 2 years ago reacted exactly the same way. When non-JOBBIK people asked them some intelligent questions they could not respond but became very violant. Also they used the grounds around the building as an open bath room and normal people had to avoid the nearby streets because of the terrible odor. In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
(Je¿ ceglédski, 14 December 2010 18:50)
Must agree with you Sir.
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 17:43)
Nothing as I know. The "gathering" of POW-s happened weeks and often months after the fighting. The officers were asked: "where are others, you did not fulfill the norm". So they asked the sub-ordinates to get some more people.
The entire thing was very chaotic. Uncle of my wife who is still well and alive, he was taken from Budapest - but escaped around Cegléd and we know his story. I am sure, many around Beregszász suffered badly and it is not the question.
Clear is: there wasn't any genocide ordered from "above" the way it was in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Auschwitz.
You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army.
This was probably the first one ever - the idea stuck with Germans and the Allies, never with Soviets.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/guernica.htm
As we know, it is still part of strategy NATO does use and regardless how they beautify it, it's still a war crime.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 15:08)
Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography .But prior to that learn writing.Your writing skills similarly to mine are close to Zero.But at least I do not want to write books.Apart from that I would welcome a book written by you.Your comments provide so much entertainment that you should share your ideas with greater public and not only posters of B92.After all there is no better cure than laugh.
"Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population. "
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
1. When it happened the front line was already around Budapest and further to the West.
2. There was no fight of anykind in the region described by me (no need for a quota mentioned by you).
3. The victimes were all Hungarians.
I will forward your "justification" to somebody near Beregszasz to hear his opinion. I can already imagine his reaction.
Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 14:41)
Joe, you do not remember. My father is not my mother. At the time the Red Army was in Karpathins my dad was around Dohány Street, facing the machine guns of arrow-cross. "Fair enough", looks like his dad (my grandfather) is of Irish origin, but taken a "wrong" religion. This is a long story, slowly unfolding. Hence, my family name is not only exceptionally rare - but also "protected" (you can't renounce or change it or change to it legally in Hungary). There is even a street named in "our" honor in Budapest and a museum.
But the family name of my grandma is "just" "Klein" - so that is pretty trivial.
Things were pretty simple. The head of the family was taken to Bor (now eastern Serbia), he served in the same place where Miklós Radnóti (who does not know: a famous poet, died in Holocaust) was. The difference: he wasn't shot dead by "Keretlegények", Miklós Radnóti was. My grandma was taken to Mauthausen, later to Bergen-Belser. She survived.
My dad was only 15 at the time, he had to be shot into Danube, but he cleverly escaped and took a small kid with him. None of them was a hero, they just did what they did. Would they have an AK-47, they would use it.
Due his eyesight (practically blind on one eye) my other granddad was refused from the Red Army. He tried to sneak-in, every time they kicked him out. He WANTED to fight. The other question is, he did had his fight from 1949 on... serving 7 years for spreading "antistalinist" propaganda. The accusation was 100% true - he DID it, it wasn't fabricated.
Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population.
This was not a pre-planed war crime, it was a war crime committed by cowardly officers - but never an official stand. As disgusting as it is - it had nothing to do with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. And now increasingly admitted. Which is not the case with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
"as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
Thank you Roberto I appreciate it. Until now I was mostly attacked as a Jew. On Hungarian sites also as a Gipsy. Now this insane and desperate accusation against my family you just noticed. How some people can be so mean is beyond me. Anyway until now I used to declare myself as a honorary Albanian. Now I also feel like a honorary Jew and a honorary Gipsy. Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
"You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
je¿ ludobójny
Dear Ataman, I would almost go along with your assessment if there would not been "malenkij robot" in the Eastern part of Hungary and in Zakarpatske Oblast. Hundreds of thousands of Hungarian men (peasants, who were not involved with Horthy or politics) were taken to their death. The first infamous stop was Sojva. Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 02:10)
I certainly do not, but shameful actions like Holocaust or Nanking Rape do not justify shameful actions like bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
(roberto, 14 December 2010 03:44)
In Serbia Americans don't need any courage, tragic incidents like of Bytiqi brothers are extremely rare. Even Arkan told - as he was ask - what he would do if he would capture an American soldier: "we would accuse him of visa regime violation".
But that San Francisco fog does spawn some pretty nasty demagogue rhetorics, worse than of Milosevic - doesn't it?
-The report looks into a number of former SS and Gestapo members who escaped justice with the US either knowingly tolerating their escape or even helping them to flee.--
whenever it comes to ww2, you can be sure to come to the comment section here, to see all of the lies and half-truths (un)fit for print.
Yes it is true and has been known for some time that us govt officials protected select nazis for their own purposes. we've known this clearly fr the space program, w/ all of the jokes about werner von braun, who always made things go up, up, up, and where they came down he cared less. behind the joke is a very horrible story of a brilliant, utterly amoral scientist who always worked for the highest bidder, and if a little slave labor was involved, well, who cares? he had his rocket toys.
but there were other less prominent cases, and their protection is also a black mark to our history.
as for the rest of the world: ussr (stalin)-- well known by most (normal) people to have allied itself w hitler until it was attacked in mid 1941. yes, the russian people suffered terribly -- an an ethnic group (actually groupS) probably as bad as any other. first under evil stalin, then under evil stalin and/or evil hitler, then, if still living, back under evil stalin. what elase can be said? -- russia is long suffering, but russian govt's have long made their neighbors suffer as well. and yes, the soviet govt also used nazis when it was convenient, don't think they did not.
as for the european countries, each and all that were occupied had collaborationaist regimes -- incl romania, croatia, serbia, france -- the list is endless. most of those countries selectively protected fascist collaborators post war -- some were executed, some were exiled, some came into the new govts. (incl yugoslavia). throughout e europe this is particularly the case -- they all claimed "it wasn't us! it was the bad germans! we are so innocent!" it was and is lies...
which is not to belittle the antifascists, who were not exclusively of any special ethnicities. and of course (we) jews. we were the biggest specific targets of nazism/fascism, but we were also partisans and freedom fighters. the warsaw ghetto being only one of many, many examples.
the defeat of hitler was a humongous international effort -- almost unimaginable today. it was by no means clear at the start that germany would be defeated, as it might seem in retrospect.
and yes, certainly Russians suffered in huge #s, but i will not get into this insane argument over who "really" suffered, who "really" was heroic. of course, almost no one mentioned the jews. we were targted in every single country under nazi occupation, often by native fascist forces. "judenrein" was their goal, and all too often their result.
as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
frisco
ps i am fully anticipating the orgy of glee tomorrow, as the news gets out that richard holbrooke has died. with all of the attending libels, lies, rationalizations (everyone's bad! you are too!). he was no saint, no one is claiming it. but he did stand up to that monster milosevic, to his greater serbia project, at a time when very few leaders or diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
"you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
szemi
If only once you would be right I would be greatly surprised and in total disbelief. Actually I left Hungary ALONE as a high school student after 56 without the assent of my parents. Your mean accusations are of the same mud-slinging type I encounter on Hungarians websites by farright Jobbik people like you. You acknowleded on this site that you are of JOBBIK. They are the same as those arrow cross people used to be, the "sopredek" (sick intolerant) of today's Hungary.
At least if you would be capable of showing the minimum amount of logic I could take you more seriously. But until now you always labeled me as a Jew. Today you label me just the opposite, offspring of Arrow Cross members. Your friends of the Jobbik act exactly like you. By them I am also attacked as a Jew and as a Gipsy. Somehow I start to believe slowly that I am Jewish Gipsy or something like that. Actually I started to like this role. I can respond to all those people much better this way. I can beat them with their own weapon.
I hope b92 will not censure my comment for demasking somebody like you who seems to be a champion of mudslinging and personal insults (tonnes of it in your comment). Such unfounded insults should not be allowed. I hope b92 agrees with this basic idea of civilized behaviour.
"This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. "
I liked the most those beatiful horses.
"However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Before Milosevic. With his Greater Serbia policy he changed everything. At the end the Serbs became the looser.
"Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy"
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
(Je¿ wikileakowy, 13 December 2010 20:45)
--
You are so right. Most Yugoslavians liked the US back in the 80s but we also liked the Russians too. The US and EU could have easily taken in Yugoslavia if it decided not to destroy it.
The victory parades look great in Moscow. A bit different from the ones being held in new EU and NATO member Estonia.
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
--
Joe, the US is sheltering the largest number of war criminals and that's a fact. Any country that gets involved in war will sooner or later shelter war criminals, there's no avoiding it. If we are going down the path of justice then I have always called for universal justice and not the selective type constantly being served by the west. In fact, I wouldn't even go down that path as it makes people to lie. Why would anyone want to reveal the truth when it means being locked away or death?
That's why truth and reconciliation is a far better option as it encourages people to tell the truth, to face their daemons and then to finally free themselves. That is the reason someone like Nelson Mandela deserves the Nobel peace prize.
No Dave, I'm not embarrassed. I stand by my opinion. The NAZIs just evolved, keeping the same objective but doing it differently.
How can the NAZIs be destroyed when the objective is continuing and advancing considerably? Controlling Europe and the US. Dividing and destroying opposition. Expanding eastwards and surrounding Russia. We just don't call them NAZIs anymore, the force is called NATO and Germany is part of it.
Tell me, apart from exterminating Jews, what difference is there between the objectives of the NAZIs and that of NATO? The ideology of the NAZIs lives on I'm afraid.
Historical cycles and patterns repeat, they just need to be identified as they always mutate.
"The US continues to protect war criminals".
Zoran
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
First of all if you had not noticed this is an article about Nazis being protected in US(quite often by jewish officials)and not alleged serb war criminals.Secondly you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
"The US didn´t defeat the nazis, Russians did.
30 million freedom fighters
First of all the Russians only "co-defeated" with others. Nobody denies their contribution. For half of Europe however the few years of German occupation was replaced by some 46 years of Russian occupation and oppression. As a result the so-called liberators became colonialist occupiers.
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
(Dave, 13 December 2010 13:45)
Dave,
This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNi4vtFaSM
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. Nothing to add to that.
However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy.
After Wikileaks what can you say?
This is what Albanians in Kosovo do say:
http://www.kohaditore.com/index.php?cid=1,65
If that's what we see from K-Albanians, Hillary has only one choice: pack and go.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
The Nazis were defeated by the Russians, the US, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the Indians and and resistance fighters in Jugoslavija, France, Holland, Poland, Greece - how long a list do you want? No one nation can claim credit and no one nation should. Great Britain actually fought Nazi Germany for two years longer than the USSR, USA or Jugoslavija, which is I why I find Zoran's original statement, that we only did made that sacrifice in order to continue the Third Reich under the guise of NATO (or is it the Fourth Reich now?), ridiculous and insulting. Having said that, I'm sure he'll feel embarassed himself if he rereads it.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
(Zoran, 13 December 2010 12:21)
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
This doesn't come as a surprise. The US continues to protect war criminals throughout the world. Protection of their own war criminals involved in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan plus those from Croatia, BiH and KiM to name a few. It is practically endless.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
(Zoran, 13 December 2010 12:21)
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
This doesn't come as a surprise. The US continues to protect war criminals throughout the world. Protection of their own war criminals involved in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan plus those from Croatia, BiH and KiM to name a few. It is practically endless.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
The Nazis were defeated by the Russians, the US, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the Indians and and resistance fighters in Jugoslavija, France, Holland, Poland, Greece - how long a list do you want? No one nation can claim credit and no one nation should. Great Britain actually fought Nazi Germany for two years longer than the USSR, USA or Jugoslavija, which is I why I find Zoran's original statement, that we only did made that sacrifice in order to continue the Third Reich under the guise of NATO (or is it the Fourth Reich now?), ridiculous and insulting. Having said that, I'm sure he'll feel embarassed himself if he rereads it.
"The US continues to protect war criminals".
Zoran
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
First of all if you had not noticed this is an article about Nazis being protected in US(quite often by jewish officials)and not alleged serb war criminals.Secondly you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
--
Joe, the US is sheltering the largest number of war criminals and that's a fact. Any country that gets involved in war will sooner or later shelter war criminals, there's no avoiding it. If we are going down the path of justice then I have always called for universal justice and not the selective type constantly being served by the west. In fact, I wouldn't even go down that path as it makes people to lie. Why would anyone want to reveal the truth when it means being locked away or death?
That's why truth and reconciliation is a far better option as it encourages people to tell the truth, to face their daemons and then to finally free themselves. That is the reason someone like Nelson Mandela deserves the Nobel peace prize.
No Dave, I'm not embarrassed. I stand by my opinion. The NAZIs just evolved, keeping the same objective but doing it differently.
How can the NAZIs be destroyed when the objective is continuing and advancing considerably? Controlling Europe and the US. Dividing and destroying opposition. Expanding eastwards and surrounding Russia. We just don't call them NAZIs anymore, the force is called NATO and Germany is part of it.
Tell me, apart from exterminating Jews, what difference is there between the objectives of the NAZIs and that of NATO? The ideology of the NAZIs lives on I'm afraid.
Historical cycles and patterns repeat, they just need to be identified as they always mutate.
Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 15:08)
Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography .But prior to that learn writing.Your writing skills similarly to mine are close to Zero.But at least I do not want to write books.Apart from that I would welcome a book written by you.Your comments provide so much entertainment that you should share your ideas with greater public and not only posters of B92.After all there is no better cure than laugh.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
(Je¿ wikileakowy, 13 December 2010 20:45)
--
You are so right. Most Yugoslavians liked the US back in the 80s but we also liked the Russians too. The US and EU could have easily taken in Yugoslavia if it decided not to destroy it.
The victory parades look great in Moscow. A bit different from the ones being held in new EU and NATO member Estonia.
"The US didn´t defeat the nazis, Russians did.
30 million freedom fighters
First of all the Russians only "co-defeated" with others. Nobody denies their contribution. For half of Europe however the few years of German occupation was replaced by some 46 years of Russian occupation and oppression. As a result the so-called liberators became colonialist occupiers.
In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 20:38)
Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
"as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
Thank you Roberto I appreciate it. Until now I was mostly attacked as a Jew. On Hungarian sites also as a Gipsy. Now this insane and desperate accusation against my family you just noticed. How some people can be so mean is beyond me. Anyway until now I used to declare myself as a honorary Albanian. Now I also feel like a honorary Jew and a honorary Gipsy. Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
(Dave, 13 December 2010 13:45)
Dave,
This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNi4vtFaSM
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. Nothing to add to that.
However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy.
After Wikileaks what can you say?
This is what Albanians in Kosovo do say:
http://www.kohaditore.com/index.php?cid=1,65
If that's what we see from K-Albanians, Hillary has only one choice: pack and go.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
(Je¿ frankistowskiej Hiszpanii, 14 December 2010 20:46)
Ёжи these days confuses a lot of things.Reading his recent comments I am a bit worried about his health.Winter darkness?Lack of vitamins?Something else?
Just check this:
So thank you again of having so much concern for me but I can reassure you my life is not miserable at all. Once I stop working (I have no plans yet) maybe I will run for a public office. Many people did it in the US, one of theme became a two-term president.
(Joe, 11 December 2010 17:14)
Like a six year old kid dreaming about becoming a president and now this idea with book writing given his very basic writing skills and relativly poor english compared to the time he has spent in US.And when does he plan to start all those things? :At the age of 120?
"you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
szemi
If only once you would be right I would be greatly surprised and in total disbelief. Actually I left Hungary ALONE as a high school student after 56 without the assent of my parents. Your mean accusations are of the same mud-slinging type I encounter on Hungarians websites by farright Jobbik people like you. You acknowleded on this site that you are of JOBBIK. They are the same as those arrow cross people used to be, the "sopredek" (sick intolerant) of today's Hungary.
At least if you would be capable of showing the minimum amount of logic I could take you more seriously. But until now you always labeled me as a Jew. Today you label me just the opposite, offspring of Arrow Cross members. Your friends of the Jobbik act exactly like you. By them I am also attacked as a Jew and as a Gipsy. Somehow I start to believe slowly that I am Jewish Gipsy or something like that. Actually I started to like this role. I can respond to all those people much better this way. I can beat them with their own weapon.
I hope b92 will not censure my comment for demasking somebody like you who seems to be a champion of mudslinging and personal insults (tonnes of it in your comment). Such unfounded insults should not be allowed. I hope b92 agrees with this basic idea of civilized behaviour.
-The report looks into a number of former SS and Gestapo members who escaped justice with the US either knowingly tolerating their escape or even helping them to flee.--
whenever it comes to ww2, you can be sure to come to the comment section here, to see all of the lies and half-truths (un)fit for print.
Yes it is true and has been known for some time that us govt officials protected select nazis for their own purposes. we've known this clearly fr the space program, w/ all of the jokes about werner von braun, who always made things go up, up, up, and where they came down he cared less. behind the joke is a very horrible story of a brilliant, utterly amoral scientist who always worked for the highest bidder, and if a little slave labor was involved, well, who cares? he had his rocket toys.
but there were other less prominent cases, and their protection is also a black mark to our history.
as for the rest of the world: ussr (stalin)-- well known by most (normal) people to have allied itself w hitler until it was attacked in mid 1941. yes, the russian people suffered terribly -- an an ethnic group (actually groupS) probably as bad as any other. first under evil stalin, then under evil stalin and/or evil hitler, then, if still living, back under evil stalin. what elase can be said? -- russia is long suffering, but russian govt's have long made their neighbors suffer as well. and yes, the soviet govt also used nazis when it was convenient, don't think they did not.
as for the european countries, each and all that were occupied had collaborationaist regimes -- incl romania, croatia, serbia, france -- the list is endless. most of those countries selectively protected fascist collaborators post war -- some were executed, some were exiled, some came into the new govts. (incl yugoslavia). throughout e europe this is particularly the case -- they all claimed "it wasn't us! it was the bad germans! we are so innocent!" it was and is lies...
which is not to belittle the antifascists, who were not exclusively of any special ethnicities. and of course (we) jews. we were the biggest specific targets of nazism/fascism, but we were also partisans and freedom fighters. the warsaw ghetto being only one of many, many examples.
the defeat of hitler was a humongous international effort -- almost unimaginable today. it was by no means clear at the start that germany would be defeated, as it might seem in retrospect.
and yes, certainly Russians suffered in huge #s, but i will not get into this insane argument over who "really" suffered, who "really" was heroic. of course, almost no one mentioned the jews. we were targted in every single country under nazi occupation, often by native fascist forces. "judenrein" was their goal, and all too often their result.
as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
frisco
ps i am fully anticipating the orgy of glee tomorrow, as the news gets out that richard holbrooke has died. with all of the attending libels, lies, rationalizations (everyone's bad! you are too!). he was no saint, no one is claiming it. but he did stand up to that monster milosevic, to his greater serbia project, at a time when very few leaders or diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
"This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. "
I liked the most those beatiful horses.
"However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Before Milosevic. With his Greater Serbia policy he changed everything. At the end the Serbs became the looser.
"Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy"
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
(roberto, 14 December 2010 03:44)
In Serbia Americans don't need any courage, tragic incidents like of Bytiqi brothers are extremely rare. Even Arkan told - as he was ask - what he would do if he would capture an American soldier: "we would accuse him of visa regime violation".
But that San Francisco fog does spawn some pretty nasty demagogue rhetorics, worse than of Milosevic - doesn't it?
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 02:10)
I certainly do not, but shameful actions like Holocaust or Nanking Rape do not justify shameful actions like bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
"You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
je¿ ludobójny
Dear Ataman, I would almost go along with your assessment if there would not been "malenkij robot" in the Eastern part of Hungary and in Zakarpatske Oblast. Hundreds of thousands of Hungarian men (peasants, who were not involved with Horthy or politics) were taken to their death. The first infamous stop was Sojva. Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
Beppino,
It is written writing not righting.So practice spelling before starting that book.(Also not a disadventage if you want to run for public office)I wish you were succesful.
If it becomes a bestseller even a movie could be made based on that book and I would play myself in it.A bad blood thirsty far right guy who has to be civilized according to your brilliant ideas.
Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 14:41)
Joe, you do not remember. My father is not my mother. At the time the Red Army was in Karpathins my dad was around Dohány Street, facing the machine guns of arrow-cross. "Fair enough", looks like his dad (my grandfather) is of Irish origin, but taken a "wrong" religion. This is a long story, slowly unfolding. Hence, my family name is not only exceptionally rare - but also "protected" (you can't renounce or change it or change to it legally in Hungary). There is even a street named in "our" honor in Budapest and a museum.
But the family name of my grandma is "just" "Klein" - so that is pretty trivial.
Things were pretty simple. The head of the family was taken to Bor (now eastern Serbia), he served in the same place where Miklós Radnóti (who does not know: a famous poet, died in Holocaust) was. The difference: he wasn't shot dead by "Keretlegények", Miklós Radnóti was. My grandma was taken to Mauthausen, later to Bergen-Belser. She survived.
My dad was only 15 at the time, he had to be shot into Danube, but he cleverly escaped and took a small kid with him. None of them was a hero, they just did what they did. Would they have an AK-47, they would use it.
Due his eyesight (practically blind on one eye) my other granddad was refused from the Red Army. He tried to sneak-in, every time they kicked him out. He WANTED to fight. The other question is, he did had his fight from 1949 on... serving 7 years for spreading "antistalinist" propaganda. The accusation was 100% true - he DID it, it wasn't fabricated.
Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population.
This was not a pre-planed war crime, it was a war crime committed by cowardly officers - but never an official stand. As disgusting as it is - it had nothing to do with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. And now increasingly admitted. Which is not the case with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 17:43)
Nothing as I know. The "gathering" of POW-s happened weeks and often months after the fighting. The officers were asked: "where are others, you did not fulfill the norm". So they asked the sub-ordinates to get some more people.
The entire thing was very chaotic. Uncle of my wife who is still well and alive, he was taken from Budapest - but escaped around Cegléd and we know his story. I am sure, many around Beregszász suffered badly and it is not the question.
Clear is: there wasn't any genocide ordered from "above" the way it was in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Auschwitz.
You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army.
This was probably the first one ever - the idea stuck with Germans and the Allies, never with Soviets.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/guernica.htm
As we know, it is still part of strategy NATO does use and regardless how they beautify it, it's still a war crime.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
(Je¿ ceglédski, 14 December 2010 18:50)
Must agree with you Sir.
"Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography '
szemi
Like all farright JOBBIK you proved again that you can write only personal insults. With people like you it is a total waist to communicate. I will try to reduce it in the future to cases when reminding others to your lies, insultes and calumnies is a moral obligation.
You can't write you are telling me. I knew that for a long time. To aleviate to your shortcoming you resort to insults. This is the only thing you know. You friends attacking the Hungarian TV building and camping around for days 2 years ago reacted exactly the same way. When non-JOBBIK people asked them some intelligent questions they could not respond but became very violant. Also they used the grounds around the building as an open bath room and normal people had to avoid the nearby streets because of the terrible odor. In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
#1: atrocities against civilians.
This was widespread.
- French did "pay back" Germans a lot, rape of German women was very widespread, rarely punished.
- One of the biggest "enemy" of Red Army were STD-s, transmitted from one soldier to an other via third-party (raped women). It was a serious issue to address because it affected fighting capabilities
- Germans did not rape, they killed many civilians by applying "punishing batalions" (very common in CZ, PL, YU, SU)
- During Spanish civil war the army of Franko pillaged and raped Spanish countryside that even most conservative "falangists" protested. According General Llepo "there is nothing wrong, it shows the vitality of our soldiers".
and many-many more. Each individual case was of course war crime.
#2: mandated, pre-set, planned extermination of a large group of civilian or non-fighing enemy soldiers
This was not very common. I am not aware, it was part of tactics employed by Franco or Mussolini (the infamous Guernica was carried over by Germans!). Neither by French or Soviet armies. It was, however, used by British, German and American forces.
This is not about "sympathies" since not much sympathy can Mussolini or even Franco remembered with (however, there is some controversy around Franco). But who did deploy such tactics were plainly war criminals straight and no excuse.
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
The sheer appearance of the Red Army around Dohány Street did made my father less hungry: he got bread. Later he was able to start a scientific carrier in Moscow. There is a difference between starting a scientific carrier or getting a bullet like unfortunate Miklós Radnóti did.
For the Hungarian branch of my family the Red Army was the liberator force, the choice of "life" in the "life or death" question. You were in very different situation, sorry for that.
"You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army."
Ataman
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
This reminds me of a story my sister told me in October. During communism when her children were young one day in school they had to write about Russians. My nephew wrote that "I don't like the Russians because during WWII when they arrived the moment my grand-father saw them he died instantly". The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
"Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population. "
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
1. When it happened the front line was already around Budapest and further to the West.
2. There was no fight of anykind in the region described by me (no need for a quota mentioned by you).
3. The victimes were all Hungarians.
I will forward your "justification" to somebody near Beregszasz to hear his opinion. I can already imagine his reaction.
"you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies."
(je¿ ludobójny, 14 December 2010 11:28)
Well, i'll try to give you a few hints on that. You might want to talk to Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and so many others.
Talk with the survivors of the Konigsberg area, today's Kaliningrad. You will find them in Kazakhstan where the Red Army commanded by the big Mustache took them. Or with the descendants of the Greeks of Odessa and Caucasus, or the Ingusci and Chechens (whose deportations to Kazakhstan were classified as genocide by the European Parliament by the way). More of anything you might want to talk or read from Russians themselves. You might want to talk with the survivors of the Russian diaspora in Eastern Europe from before the October revolution, or read the stories of what happened to them when the Red Army arrived there. You might also want to talk with the descendants of the so called Kulaks. If you can find any who survived. The backbone of Russia exterminated by the Red Army, Beria, and the Big Mustache.
Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
(szemi, 14 December 2010 21:51)
Make sure there is enough wine in that cellar, than I join.
And let him out if he is less grumpy.
Not a bad treatment because red wine has some serious anti-oxydants.
Good boys get Baywood Ruby Cabernet.
Bad boys get Kövidinka (wine is "kövi", who drinks is "dinka")
Orbánka gets Kádárka
Kim Jong Il gets nothing (semmi köze a tökéhez!)
And I have to work now, was doing nothing the day and enough of silliness.
This doesn't come as a surprise. The US continues to protect war criminals throughout the world. Protection of their own war criminals involved in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan plus those from Croatia, BiH and KiM to name a few. It is practically endless.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
Personally, I don't believe the US defeated the NAZIs at all. They simply transformed it into NATO.
(Zoran, 13 December 2010 12:21)
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
"The US didn´t defeat the nazis, Russians did.
30 million freedom fighters
First of all the Russians only "co-defeated" with others. Nobody denies their contribution. For half of Europe however the few years of German occupation was replaced by some 46 years of Russian occupation and oppression. As a result the so-called liberators became colonialist occupiers.
"This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. "
I liked the most those beatiful horses.
"However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Before Milosevic. With his Greater Serbia policy he changed everything. At the end the Serbs became the looser.
"Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy"
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
-The report looks into a number of former SS and Gestapo members who escaped justice with the US either knowingly tolerating their escape or even helping them to flee.--
whenever it comes to ww2, you can be sure to come to the comment section here, to see all of the lies and half-truths (un)fit for print.
Yes it is true and has been known for some time that us govt officials protected select nazis for their own purposes. we've known this clearly fr the space program, w/ all of the jokes about werner von braun, who always made things go up, up, up, and where they came down he cared less. behind the joke is a very horrible story of a brilliant, utterly amoral scientist who always worked for the highest bidder, and if a little slave labor was involved, well, who cares? he had his rocket toys.
but there were other less prominent cases, and their protection is also a black mark to our history.
as for the rest of the world: ussr (stalin)-- well known by most (normal) people to have allied itself w hitler until it was attacked in mid 1941. yes, the russian people suffered terribly -- an an ethnic group (actually groupS) probably as bad as any other. first under evil stalin, then under evil stalin and/or evil hitler, then, if still living, back under evil stalin. what elase can be said? -- russia is long suffering, but russian govt's have long made their neighbors suffer as well. and yes, the soviet govt also used nazis when it was convenient, don't think they did not.
as for the european countries, each and all that were occupied had collaborationaist regimes -- incl romania, croatia, serbia, france -- the list is endless. most of those countries selectively protected fascist collaborators post war -- some were executed, some were exiled, some came into the new govts. (incl yugoslavia). throughout e europe this is particularly the case -- they all claimed "it wasn't us! it was the bad germans! we are so innocent!" it was and is lies...
which is not to belittle the antifascists, who were not exclusively of any special ethnicities. and of course (we) jews. we were the biggest specific targets of nazism/fascism, but we were also partisans and freedom fighters. the warsaw ghetto being only one of many, many examples.
the defeat of hitler was a humongous international effort -- almost unimaginable today. it was by no means clear at the start that germany would be defeated, as it might seem in retrospect.
and yes, certainly Russians suffered in huge #s, but i will not get into this insane argument over who "really" suffered, who "really" was heroic. of course, almost no one mentioned the jews. we were targted in every single country under nazi occupation, often by native fascist forces. "judenrein" was their goal, and all too often their result.
as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
frisco
ps i am fully anticipating the orgy of glee tomorrow, as the news gets out that richard holbrooke has died. with all of the attending libels, lies, rationalizations (everyone's bad! you are too!). he was no saint, no one is claiming it. but he did stand up to that monster milosevic, to his greater serbia project, at a time when very few leaders or diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
diplomats had the courage to do so. while the world was acquiescing, holbrooke was NOT. and god bless him for it.
just for that, i will remember him and his courage with fondness.
(roberto, 14 December 2010 03:44)
In Serbia Americans don't need any courage, tragic incidents like of Bytiqi brothers are extremely rare. Even Arkan told - as he was ask - what he would do if he would capture an American soldier: "we would accuse him of visa regime violation".
But that San Francisco fog does spawn some pretty nasty demagogue rhetorics, worse than of Milosevic - doesn't it?
I think that US foreign policy is almost completely discredited and I'm also sceptical about what value NATO brings to the countries of Europe, but that doesn't stop the above being an offensive and idiotic statement. Shameful.
(Dave, 13 December 2010 13:45)
Dave,
This is how the Victory Day was celebrated in Moscow this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNi4vtFaSM
Watch the full video, most important is at the end - the British, American and French troops in front of Kremlin. Nothing to add to that.
However please sit back and think. 30+ years ago we regularly listened to very pro-American radio aired from today's Serbia. It was the only American news not disturbed. It was very difficult to tune to VoA.
During our travels we rarely encountered more enthusiastic locals towards America than Serbs. That was in 1978 and 1980.
Looking as comments now I fee, somewhat changed radically in Serbian mood. We can disagree with that, but the word "shameful" goes to American foreign policy.
After Wikileaks what can you say?
This is what Albanians in Kosovo do say:
http://www.kohaditore.com/index.php?cid=1,65
If that's what we see from K-Albanians, Hillary has only one choice: pack and go.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
No Dave, I'm not embarrassed. I stand by my opinion. The NAZIs just evolved, keeping the same objective but doing it differently.
How can the NAZIs be destroyed when the objective is continuing and advancing considerably? Controlling Europe and the US. Dividing and destroying opposition. Expanding eastwards and surrounding Russia. We just don't call them NAZIs anymore, the force is called NATO and Germany is part of it.
Tell me, apart from exterminating Jews, what difference is there between the objectives of the NAZIs and that of NATO? The ideology of the NAZIs lives on I'm afraid.
Historical cycles and patterns repeat, they just need to be identified as they always mutate.
"you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
szemi
If only once you would be right I would be greatly surprised and in total disbelief. Actually I left Hungary ALONE as a high school student after 56 without the assent of my parents. Your mean accusations are of the same mud-slinging type I encounter on Hungarians websites by farright Jobbik people like you. You acknowleded on this site that you are of JOBBIK. They are the same as those arrow cross people used to be, the "sopredek" (sick intolerant) of today's Hungary.
At least if you would be capable of showing the minimum amount of logic I could take you more seriously. But until now you always labeled me as a Jew. Today you label me just the opposite, offspring of Arrow Cross members. Your friends of the Jobbik act exactly like you. By them I am also attacked as a Jew and as a Gipsy. Somehow I start to believe slowly that I am Jewish Gipsy or something like that. Actually I started to like this role. I can respond to all those people much better this way. I can beat them with their own weapon.
I hope b92 will not censure my comment for demasking somebody like you who seems to be a champion of mudslinging and personal insults (tonnes of it in your comment). Such unfounded insults should not be allowed. I hope b92 agrees with this basic idea of civilized behaviour.
The Nazis were defeated by the Russians, the US, the British, the Canadians, the Australians, the Indians and and resistance fighters in Jugoslavija, France, Holland, Poland, Greece - how long a list do you want? No one nation can claim credit and no one nation should. Great Britain actually fought Nazi Germany for two years longer than the USSR, USA or Jugoslavija, which is I why I find Zoran's original statement, that we only did made that sacrifice in order to continue the Third Reich under the guise of NATO (or is it the Fourth Reich now?), ridiculous and insulting. Having said that, I'm sure he'll feel embarassed himself if he rereads it.
'Shameful" if you agreed and still agree with those expensionist policies of Milosevic and the expulsion (fortunately short lived) of 1 million K-Albanians.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 02:10)
I certainly do not, but shameful actions like Holocaust or Nanking Rape do not justify shameful actions like bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
"as to the usual personal attacks here against Joe, myself, whomever (almost all dissident to this site) i look at the perpetrator, and those who facilitate the (never-ending) attacks. hvala mnoga, b92!
roberto
Thank you Roberto I appreciate it. Until now I was mostly attacked as a Jew. On Hungarian sites also as a Gipsy. Now this insane and desperate accusation against my family you just noticed. How some people can be so mean is beyond me. Anyway until now I used to declare myself as a honorary Albanian. Now I also feel like a honorary Jew and a honorary Gipsy. Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
"The US continues to protect war criminals".
Zoran
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
First of all if you had not noticed this is an article about Nazis being protected in US(quite often by jewish officials)and not alleged serb war criminals.Secondly you are the only one here who as a Nyilas ivadék(offspring of Arrow Cross members)should remain extremly quite .The way you arrived in USA and your rhetorics combined with behaviour give you away.You have mentione earliear that you have spent a while in both France and Germany before arriving in US.In reality it means your parents together with you were kickout out of France then Germany as soon as their arrow cross past was revealed there.You have become inconvinient for those countries in the post war period similarly to many others with the same dark past who had to go finally either to US,Australia or south america.It also fits the pattern that arriving in uS you become very pro-jewish and and pro-israeli thinking this way you can hide your true mentality and your families past(similar trick was often used by other immigrants with the same dark past.)Cheap trick but does not work.Your rethorics and extreme hatred towards peoples of those countries which brought the greatest secrife during the fight against Nazis gives you away.
I see the entire foreign policy being discredited. Serbs are just a sensitive barometer, don't kill the messenger.
(Je¿ wikileakowy, 13 December 2010 20:45)
--
You are so right. Most Yugoslavians liked the US back in the 80s but we also liked the Russians too. The US and EU could have easily taken in Yugoslavia if it decided not to destroy it.
The victory parades look great in Moscow. A bit different from the ones being held in new EU and NATO member Estonia.
"You may be right that Red Army - as an army serving a dictatorship - did bring controversy and quite a lot of atrocity. Unlike Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki Red Army never had an official command to carry on extermination of civil population. It's a major difference and regardless of atrocities you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies.
je¿ ludobójny
Dear Ataman, I would almost go along with your assessment if there would not been "malenkij robot" in the Eastern part of Hungary and in Zakarpatske Oblast. Hundreds of thousands of Hungarian men (peasants, who were not involved with Horthy or politics) were taken to their death. The first infamous stop was Sojva. Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
"Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography '
szemi
Like all farright JOBBIK you proved again that you can write only personal insults. With people like you it is a total waist to communicate. I will try to reduce it in the future to cases when reminding others to your lies, insultes and calumnies is a moral obligation.
You can't write you are telling me. I knew that for a long time. To aleviate to your shortcoming you resort to insults. This is the only thing you know. You friends attacking the Hungarian TV building and camping around for days 2 years ago reacted exactly the same way. When non-JOBBIK people asked them some intelligent questions they could not respond but became very violant. Also they used the grounds around the building as an open bath room and normal people had to avoid the nearby streets because of the terrible odor. In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
Look who is talking. By protecting Mladic and the othes your country should remain extremely quite (and feeling guilty) when protection comes up.
(Joe, 13 December 2010 19:41)
--
Joe, the US is sheltering the largest number of war criminals and that's a fact. Any country that gets involved in war will sooner or later shelter war criminals, there's no avoiding it. If we are going down the path of justice then I have always called for universal justice and not the selective type constantly being served by the west. In fact, I wouldn't even go down that path as it makes people to lie. Why would anyone want to reveal the truth when it means being locked away or death?
That's why truth and reconciliation is a far better option as it encourages people to tell the truth, to face their daemons and then to finally free themselves. That is the reason someone like Nelson Mandela deserves the Nobel peace prize.
"Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population. "
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
1. When it happened the front line was already around Budapest and further to the West.
2. There was no fight of anykind in the region described by me (no need for a quota mentioned by you).
3. The victimes were all Hungarians.
I will forward your "justification" to somebody near Beregszasz to hear his opinion. I can already imagine his reaction.
Those were not policemen who took them there but the army. How will you defend that action? You explained once that your dad was an officer in the Red Army. Did you ever discuss it with him. I know the convenient excuse used to be that Stalin ordered it. Actually many Russians (higher ups) involved in it approved it.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 14:41)
Joe, you do not remember. My father is not my mother. At the time the Red Army was in Karpathins my dad was around Dohány Street, facing the machine guns of arrow-cross. "Fair enough", looks like his dad (my grandfather) is of Irish origin, but taken a "wrong" religion. This is a long story, slowly unfolding. Hence, my family name is not only exceptionally rare - but also "protected" (you can't renounce or change it or change to it legally in Hungary). There is even a street named in "our" honor in Budapest and a museum.
But the family name of my grandma is "just" "Klein" - so that is pretty trivial.
Things were pretty simple. The head of the family was taken to Bor (now eastern Serbia), he served in the same place where Miklós Radnóti (who does not know: a famous poet, died in Holocaust) was. The difference: he wasn't shot dead by "Keretlegények", Miklós Radnóti was. My grandma was taken to Mauthausen, later to Bergen-Belser. She survived.
My dad was only 15 at the time, he had to be shot into Danube, but he cleverly escaped and took a small kid with him. None of them was a hero, they just did what they did. Would they have an AK-47, they would use it.
Due his eyesight (practically blind on one eye) my other granddad was refused from the Red Army. He tried to sneak-in, every time they kicked him out. He WANTED to fight. The other question is, he did had his fight from 1949 on... serving 7 years for spreading "antistalinist" propaganda. The accusation was 100% true - he DID it, it wasn't fabricated.
Now back to your question: the "small work" = "маленькая работа" = "kicsi robot" as Hungarians called. That had NOTHING to do with civilians being abused on purpose. What happened: as usual, there was a "plan" for everything. It was Stalinist regime and they expected to fulfill the plan and even more. Even before battle it was pre-set, how many enemy soldiers should be killed and how many taken prisoner. If the numbers were not up to expectation - these numbers where "inflated" by victims taken from local population, sometimes even allied population.
This was not a pre-planed war crime, it was a war crime committed by cowardly officers - but never an official stand. As disgusting as it is - it had nothing to do with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. And now increasingly admitted. Which is not the case with Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
(szemi, 14 December 2010 21:51)
Make sure there is enough wine in that cellar, than I join.
And let him out if he is less grumpy.
Not a bad treatment because red wine has some serious anti-oxydants.
Good boys get Baywood Ruby Cabernet.
Bad boys get Kövidinka (wine is "kövi", who drinks is "dinka")
Orbánka gets Kádárka
Kim Jong Il gets nothing (semmi köze a tökéhez!)
And I have to work now, was doing nothing the day and enough of silliness.
Maybe one day if I have more time I will write a book demasking all those biased sick people in Hungary, who poison life in that small country and set people against people.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 15:08)
Include the anyway very sick american hungarians and write an autobiography .But prior to that learn writing.Your writing skills similarly to mine are close to Zero.But at least I do not want to write books.Apart from that I would welcome a book written by you.Your comments provide so much entertainment that you should share your ideas with greater public and not only posters of B92.After all there is no better cure than laugh.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
(Je¿ ceglédski, 14 December 2010 18:50)
Must agree with you Sir.
"You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army."
Ataman
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
This reminds me of a story my sister told me in October. During communism when her children were young one day in school they had to write about Russians. My nephew wrote that "I don't like the Russians because during WWII when they arrived the moment my grand-father saw them he died instantly". The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
In my book I will also propose how to protect society against such unsocial and uncivilized elements.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 20:38)
Ask your wife to lock you in the cellar and then throw the key away.
Ataman, there are many credibility problems with this latest version of yours.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 17:43)
Nothing as I know. The "gathering" of POW-s happened weeks and often months after the fighting. The officers were asked: "where are others, you did not fulfill the norm". So they asked the sub-ordinates to get some more people.
The entire thing was very chaotic. Uncle of my wife who is still well and alive, he was taken from Budapest - but escaped around Cegléd and we know his story. I am sure, many around Beregszász suffered badly and it is not the question.
Clear is: there wasn't any genocide ordered from "above" the way it was in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Auschwitz.
You can say what you like - but "terror from the above" never was part of military doctrine in Red Army.
This was probably the first one ever - the idea stuck with Germans and the Allies, never with Soviets.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/guernica.htm
As we know, it is still part of strategy NATO does use and regardless how they beautify it, it's still a war crime.
You may notice that Israel never used it - but could. And Saddam used it against Kurds.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
#1: atrocities against civilians.
This was widespread.
- French did "pay back" Germans a lot, rape of German women was very widespread, rarely punished.
- One of the biggest "enemy" of Red Army were STD-s, transmitted from one soldier to an other via third-party (raped women). It was a serious issue to address because it affected fighting capabilities
- Germans did not rape, they killed many civilians by applying "punishing batalions" (very common in CZ, PL, YU, SU)
- During Spanish civil war the army of Franko pillaged and raped Spanish countryside that even most conservative "falangists" protested. According General Llepo "there is nothing wrong, it shows the vitality of our soldiers".
and many-many more. Each individual case was of course war crime.
#2: mandated, pre-set, planned extermination of a large group of civilian or non-fighing enemy soldiers
This was not very common. I am not aware, it was part of tactics employed by Franco or Mussolini (the infamous Guernica was carried over by Germans!). Neither by French or Soviet armies. It was, however, used by British, German and American forces.
This is not about "sympathies" since not much sympathy can Mussolini or even Franco remembered with (however, there is some controversy around Franco). But who did deploy such tactics were plainly war criminals straight and no excuse.
Must agree with you Sir.
(Czeglédi József, 14 December 2010 19:28)
Szemi - here I think Ёжи confuses two things.
(Je¿ frankistowskiej Hiszpanii, 14 December 2010 20:46)
Ёжи these days confuses a lot of things.Reading his recent comments I am a bit worried about his health.Winter darkness?Lack of vitamins?Something else?
Just check this:
So thank you again of having so much concern for me but I can reassure you my life is not miserable at all. Once I stop working (I have no plans yet) maybe I will run for a public office. Many people did it in the US, one of theme became a two-term president.
(Joe, 11 December 2010 17:14)
Like a six year old kid dreaming about becoming a president and now this idea with book writing given his very basic writing skills and relativly poor english compared to the time he has spent in US.And when does he plan to start all those things? :At the age of 120?
The teacher brought the righting to my sister's house in the evening and asked to rewrite it to avoid problems with the authorities.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
Beppino,
It is written writing not righting.So practice spelling before starting that book.(Also not a disadventage if you want to run for public office)I wish you were succesful.
If it becomes a bestseller even a movie could be made based on that book and I would play myself in it.A bad blood thirsty far right guy who has to be civilized according to your brilliant ideas.
"you can't accuse Red Army of genocide. This is not the case with it's allies."
(je¿ ludobójny, 14 December 2010 11:28)
Well, i'll try to give you a few hints on that. You might want to talk to Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and so many others.
Talk with the survivors of the Konigsberg area, today's Kaliningrad. You will find them in Kazakhstan where the Red Army commanded by the big Mustache took them. Or with the descendants of the Greeks of Odessa and Caucasus, or the Ingusci and Chechens (whose deportations to Kazakhstan were classified as genocide by the European Parliament by the way). More of anything you might want to talk or read from Russians themselves. You might want to talk with the survivors of the Russian diaspora in Eastern Europe from before the October revolution, or read the stories of what happened to them when the Red Army arrived there. You might also want to talk with the descendants of the so called Kulaks. If you can find any who survived. The backbone of Russia exterminated by the Red Army, Beria, and the Big Mustache.
Because the sheer appearance of the Red Army scared people to death, it was terror on sight. I would call it "desentralized" terror done by the units. No order from above was necessary.
(Joe, 14 December 2010 21:06)
The sheer appearance of the Red Army around Dohány Street did made my father less hungry: he got bread. Later he was able to start a scientific carrier in Moscow. There is a difference between starting a scientific carrier or getting a bullet like unfortunate Miklós Radnóti did.
For the Hungarian branch of my family the Red Army was the liberator force, the choice of "life" in the "life or death" question. You were in very different situation, sorry for that.
IMAGE SOURCE
36 Komentari
Sortiraj po: