Aftermath of “Nobel dispute”

No matter if the Serbian side had a preplanned scenario or not everybody did what he was expected to do/ Si if I were the Ombudsman I would do the same and if I were the President or the PM or the FM no matter what personally think I would definitely do the same. As cynic as the modern politics is …
What I really believe is that Serbia has no interest to irritate the second important ally of it’s own. So Vuk is right not to go there while all the rest are also right to formally condemn him. Serbia has to stop it’s primitive West backing strategy and use some of the Tito’s tactics !

Jeremic surely makes promises he can t keep... Pity they are going to put him aside, i was starting to like the way he does politics. I really wish by some chance jeremic becomes a president...a true anti-imperialist-revisionist. Reminds me of Enver Hoxha. A true patriot indeed. Yet, even E Hoxha gave up the chinise...

"Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.
(PRO-SERBIA, 11 December 2010 13:06) "

I don't think Serbians need to be overly concerned. The Chinese have ample reasons to keep "Kosova" in limbo at the UN -- Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang.

If history is any indication, the Chinese have remained loyal to the likes of North Korea and Myanmar. The Yankees on the other hand had abandoned the South Vietnamese to the Vietcongs.

“Well, I showed you the example of Citigroup and of PANYNJ that interest arbitrage works. Note, I’m not claiming that the US debt is good. I just showed theoretical and practical examples to convince you that it is possible for debt to be good, as it is possible for it to be bad. I’m not taking a position here.

Is the US debt is good or not ? I don’t know. It depends on what’s used for. So far you have spoken about worries, overall amount of debt, etc, etc., but no data at all on the crucial issue ? Is this debt resulting on a net economic loss for the US ? If so, it is bad; if not, it is good. “

Can you show that the CEOs of Citigroup and PANYNJ are worried about their companies’ debts in the way Obama and other Yankees are about their humongous national debt? I would think that the lack of complaints from these CEOs would probably indicate that their companies’ debts are ok. Similarly, the worrying noises from Obama and Yankees suggest the opposite story about the US debt.


“I did not say Obama is a lier. It’s me, you, him or the public being illogical – that’s a matter of opinion. However, the facts and data is not. And I told you what the data was. Do you need me to provide you examples of politicians being against the Citigroup bail out 2 years ago? And if they had gotten their way and US had not borrowed for that transaction, the 12 billion of lost gain would have been peanuts, compared to the hundreds of billions that could have been lost from Citigroup’s failure.”

So the main reason for the US government to lend Citigroup money was to bail them out, NOT with the profit motive in mind – which would contradict what you were writing about all this while about arbitraging right? The US actions were to rescue the banks and to prevent further losses, not to make money.


“Facts please about the negative scenario… If we just go by hearsay, than Citigroup would not have been bailed out with catastrophic results. I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes. But hate and emotions should not overtake cold logic and cold logic dictated that it was economically beneficial to bail out Citigroup regardless of how cynical or unpopular that could sound. Emotions seldom lead to sound decisions. “

The fact (that you asked for) is that Yankees are worried about their national debt, losing their homes, jobs and so on. You on the other hand had failed to provide factual evidence about why they should not be worried. And as I mentioned already, you cannot assume without evidence that the benefits to Citigroup is representative of the Yankee economy as a whole.



“I never claimed that so I don’t have to prove that (and in any case happiness is subjective).

The only claim I’ve made and I’m making is that debt could be good or could be bad. It depends on the purpose the debt proceeds are used for. Do we agree on this? “

In the Yankees’ case, I would think the debt is more bad than good precisely because no sane Yankee, not least the president himself, appeared to be delighted about the amount of the national debt and in fact actually want to increase the debt even further.



“Of course; and indeed unbridled capitalism does not exist in any major developed or developing country. The Yankees learned it 80 years ago that unbridled capitalism does not work.
(icj1, 23 December 2010 03:33)”

From what I have read or seen, with all the legislations that the US Congress had passed or are thinking of passing with regards to mortgage repayments, credit card debts, etc, the Yankees seem more and more like a centrally controlled economy nowadays!

"Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.
(PRO-SERBIA, 11 December 2010 13:06) "

I don't think Serbians need to be overly concerned. The Chinese have ample reasons to keep "Kosova" in limbo at the UN -- Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang.

If history is any indication, the Chinese have remained loyal to the likes of North Korea and Myanmar. The Yankees on the other hand had abandoned the South Vietnamese to the Vietcongs.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 14:05)

China, like America and EVERY other country on the planet, wants the best for itself, and will only develop relations with those who will benefit China the most. If South Korea and North Korea were to go into conflict today, in no way would China support North Korea. They're not stupid.

It will be Serbs own fault if they end up choosing China instead of the US. Sure, what the Western media portrayed of Serbs in the '90s was disgusting, but that had more to do with their policy of containing Russian influence pretty much anywhere in the world, especially since they were (and still are) influential in Serbian politics. Alas, capitalism has proven to be an infinitely better system than communism, so, if Serbs decide to go down that road again (well, not really down that route, but on that side of the coin, if you know what I mean), then that's their own fault.

“- It is you who is naive!
Reread the thread you posted and think again.

You claim that Albanians have manipulated the great powers!?

We wish we could take credit for that but there was no manipulation. Serbia tried to but was unsuccessful.

Great powers are not manipulated so easily!
(metrod, 12 December 2010 00:36)”

metrod, it is you who needs to reread, not me! I was replying to iliri who wrote on 11 Dec that

“... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back... “

You have to be either blind or careless or both not to notice the sentence “we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals” in iliri’s post. It is iliri, NOT me, who appears to think that Albanians can and should manipulate to achieve their irredentist goals.

So YOU are the confused turkey, not me!

Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.

There is a huge difference between the vietnam story and the kosovo story...in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...stalin once had plans to help hoxha to annex kosovo, likewise he previously wanted tito to 'swallow' Albania , to bad comrade stalin died to soon... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...

“China, like America and EVERY other country on the planet, wants the best for itself, and will only develop relations with those who will benefit China the most. If South Korea and North Korea were to go into conflict today, in no way would China support North Korea. They're not stupid.

It will be Serbs own fault if they end up choosing China instead of the US. Sure, what the Western media portrayed of Serbs in the '90s was disgusting, but that had more to do with their policy of containing Russian influence pretty much anywhere in the world, especially since they were (and still are) influential in Serbian politics. Alas, capitalism has proven to be an infinitely better system than communism, so, if Serbs decide to go down that road again (well, not really down that route, but on that side of the coin, if you know what I mean), then that's their own fault.
(Ari Gold, 11 December 2010 15:22)”

It is precisely because the Chinese want the best for herself that it will not in my opinion compromise her own claims to Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan by changing tack on the Kosovo issue. As for the Koreas, obviously you are so ignorant of the history of the Korean War. At the start, the North Koreans then were ALONE fighting the South Koreans, Yankees and the entire UN. The Chinese chose to help the North Koreans nevertheless and forced the West back from the Yalu River at the Chinese border to the middle of the Korean peninsular. In the context of today, the Chinese will not, in my view, abandon Pyongyang because North Korea’s collapse would herald a united Korea under Yankee influence right at China’s doorsteps. Yes, you are right about China looking after her own interest – and that’s precisely why she is not likely to tolerate a South Korean victory. And I think Seoul is not stupid either – they do such good trade and business with Beijing – why would they want to antagonize a nuclear power like China who gives them such good business opportunities in peace time?

As for the Serbs’ choice, well, I can’t answer for them. But looking at the humongous debts accumulated by the Yankees and the financial troubles plaguing various EU members, you will have to forgive me for being skeptical about the so called wonders of unbridled capitalism!

in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)
--
Please, it seems your memory has problems. You forgot to mention the US was deeply involved in both conflicts. In both Vietnam and KiM, they were active aggressors and just like Vietnam, they didn't achieve their goal in KiM either. They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.

They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 16:25)

Well, those who leave in Kosovo don't share your opinion.

I can call Serbia "the world largest prison"; but who cares about what I think. It's the opinion of the Serbs that matters because they live in Serbia.

I would rather spend my money on nike shoes and eat burger king, rather than not have money at all and moreover forced into learning serbo-croatian at school, i mean, why would an albanian need to learn a slavic language, we could care less about slavs, why spend effort on becoming a slav at all? To end up like Bosnia? No thanks ...also, Chinese and Rep o Albania Gov have splendid relations since after early 90s...even up to this day chinese historians appreciate our contribution to Chinese interests in UN, even in the Kosovo issue,unlike Russia, China is not forcing other countries not to reckognise the indipenence, it is staying neutral, in the jury of the court, the chinese represantative didn't vote against...in 1996 they even suplied us with their latest anti-tank and anti air rockets, and the chinese are willing to enhance collaboration in military and business once again, but we are getting better offers from the japanese so..., and our premier has been hosted several of times by the chinese highest leaders. You don't have to boycot a Nobel prize in order to look good in front the chinese...Albania is an idipendend country, and directs Her foreign policies according to our national interests...now that we mentioned ww2, how easily you forgot that it was Albanian partizans of Hoxha who defeated the nazis in Kosovo and even helped out his master tito in bosna, now that was a great mistake, instead of stoping our fight in Albania, Hoxha, traitor by default, helped re implent the yugoslva invasion in Kosovo...we were one of the nations that fought against nazis harder than any other nation in proportion to population, we were the only people in europe that did not submit a single jew or italian to the germans... unlike ustashe, balli kombtar faught against the italians, but when partizans assaulted them, they chose to ally with the germans, at condition that imprisoned albanian communist would not be executed, but would be released when the war ended, only one element was ruthless from balli, but serbia had nedic as well

Reminds me of Enver Hoxha. A true patriot indeed. Yet, even E Hoxha gave up the chinise...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 12:21)
--
That is the thing about Albanians and why they are the least developed in the region. You gave up on the Chinese just as they were beginning to get strong. You joined the Nazi's at their peak, just as they were about to be destroyed. You also join the West at its peak, just as it begins to crumble. You keep changing sides at the worst possible time.

There is a saying in the trading world. Bears make money, Bulls make money but Pigs get slaughtered.

So watch the Albanians, see which side they've changed to and expect it to crumble. It is a very good indicator. Serbians on the other hand always choose the right side but we are just a bit early so we tend to suffer first before things turn our way. Now that's just my observation.

As for the Serbs’ choice, well, I can’t answer for them. But looking at the humongous debts accumulated by the Yankees and the financial troubles plaguing various EU members, you will have to forgive me for being skeptical about the so called wonders of unbridled capitalism!
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:10)

Humongous debt does not mean anything; it's the purpose of the debt that matters. As proven over and over again you can get a profit by borrowing low and lending high.

As for the financial troubles of Europe, that again does not mean anything. Europe is still a relatively better place to live than China. Is Europe an ideal place ? No, nobody is ideal. But still it is relatively better.

Rote K, I would disagree with you on this one.
In Tito's time world was simplier, much more under the table dealings are done now and thus harder to read and smell

In my opinion, the decision not to participate was wrong and participating by somehow arguing that participation is only out of respect to the host country but we don't think was a good idea to put something in China's face without aligning a bit, provocations don't solve anything bla bla bla ..., would have kept China in the comfort zone.

The only thing worst than an unappropriate decision is to change the decision. Guys!!?
If the decision came out not to participate, then at least try to use it to send a signal that EU&US and who knows who else have to work a bit harder on their stance towards Serbia as currently Serbia would view a special relation with China as more advantageous bla bla bla ... But don't change it!!
The only message that was sent now is that Jeremic is not credible and there's a fracture on your side of the table, thus a weakness that can be put to a purpose also for other issues in the future

"There is a huge difference between the vietnam story and the kosovo story...in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...stalin once had plans to help hoxha to annex kosovo, likewise he previously wanted tito to 'swallow' Albania , to bad comrade stalin died to soon... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46) "

You missed my point completely. My point was that the Yankees, as shown by the Vietnamese experience, have abandoned their faithful allies when it is expedient for them to do so. And history might just repeat itself on, who knows, Kosovo even.

So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?

Well, those who leave in Kosovo don't share your opinion.

I can call Serbia "the world largest prison"; but who cares about what I think. It's the opinion of the Serbs that matters because they live in Serbia.
(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:43)
--
Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to. It's the Kosovo Albanians who are applying for Serbian passports and now attempting to get Albanian citizenship so they can leave their prison camp. It is a sad thing but what I'm trying to say is the US has not reached it's objective and that is fairly obvious by the statements made on Wikileaks.

They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 16:25)

--First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

So keep laughing Zoran, and the likes.

I think we played it perfectly. We made it clear we sympathise with the Chinese position, but in the end acknowledged our responsibility as an EU applicant. No long term damage with either.

"Humongous debt does not mean anything; it's the purpose of the debt that matters. As proven over and over again you can get a profit by borrowing low and lending high.

As for the financial troubles of Europe, that again does not mean anything. Europe is still a relatively better place to live than China. Is Europe an ideal place ? No, nobody is ideal. But still it is relatively better.
(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40) "

And I requested from you to show me over and over again that the US borrowed bigtime because it hopes to profit from the interest arbitraging. Which you have failed to show again and again.

In fact, if you are right, then why do we keep reading about Yankee politicians and prominent citizens being worried about their country's debts? See for example http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-11/u-s-is-bankrupt-and-we-don-t-even-know-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html and

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60R32K20100128 Even the Yankee president himself called for the debts to be reduced, not increased



Let me give you a chance to show "the other side" of the picture -- can you provide any credible sources that show that Yankee politicians are NOT worried at all about their humongous debts and in fact want to INCREASE them even more?

As for Europe's financial troubles, I see the root causes to be overspending and living beyond your means -- not unlike the Yankees actually as seen from the latter's mortgage fiasco a few years back. Material accumulation seems to be a prominent trait in captialism -- no harm in this but provided you can afford your purchases. In the context of Europe and the Yankees, it is probably the case of material accumulation WITHOUT being able to afford them. Hence the debt defaults, foreclosures and bankruptcies. And I didn't say that China is a fabulous place to live in. I was only questioning whether capitalism is really the utopia that some people seem to think.

FYI, the quotes mentioned below come from Julian Assange and not Liu Xiaobo.

I don't have anything personal against Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo but it's a shame his efforts are politicised in a way where the pot calls the kettle black.

Now listen to what this dissident has to say.

"To radically shift regime behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that regimes do not want to be changed."

"We must think beyond those who have gone before us and discover ... changes that embolden us with ways to act in which our forebears could not."

"the more secretive or unjust an organisation is, the more ... induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. ... Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, ... ... leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance."

Now why do so many people justify this person being in jail? Doesn't that sound like a person with a noble cause? It seems most ethnic Albanians and their supporters (i.e. Joe and the gang) have an issue with this? Why?

Kosovazitaion will get for Serbia very expensive, no matter which side. Russians already got a good proportion (and I'm sure that they will continue to dig for more). Chinese will do the same, and in a way they already got much. Remember the 100 000 (or according some rumors say even a quarter million) unregistered Chinese in Serbia? This is just the beginning...

And still, no EU, no progress, no nothing, just a mere dream that those turbo capatilists of the BRIC states will share their wealth, something what those BRIC governments do not want to share with the absolute majority of their own popuplation.

no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)

The problem for you: you keep thinking about Big Albanian Nation.
On the other hand, America, EU, China, Russia keep thinking about Big Albanian Market, Big Albanian Resources and Big Albanian military bases.

At one point Big Albanian Nation concept is going to be in conflict with last three "Big" concepts, they are totally incompatible.

"Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to"
Zoran

But to travel they need money. With their very low salaries I am wondering how many go even as far as dreaming about a vacation in France or UK. They would go to Montenegro (bringing their own food to save) or Greece or to similar cheap countries.

now that the north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)

By all means. Just make sure to let us know when you are coming. Our welcoming committee is world renown for their hospitality. If you happen to choose rainy season for your arrival leave your Nikes at home and wear something with cleats, as we have steep hills and wouldn't like to see our guests slipping and falling on their faces and over one another on their way back home. Good luck!!!

Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to. It's the Kosovo Albanians who are applying for Serbian passports and now attempting to get Albanian citizenship so they can leave their prison camp. It is a sad thing but what I'm trying to say is the US has not reached it's objective and that is fairly obvious by the statements made on Wikileaks.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 20:53)

Well, those who leave in Kosovo are satisfied that the US achieved for Serbia not to be in charge in Kosovo...

Even Serbia itself has recognized that Serbia is not in charge in Kosovo, thus recognizing the US achievement.

why would an albanian need to learn a slavic language, we could care less about slavs, why spend effort on becoming a slav at all?
(iliri, 11 December 2010 19:17)

Don't really know how to answer your question - but since he speaks Russian better than you - feel free to ask him:

http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behgjet_Pacolli

So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:26)

The tail does not wiggle the dog. Even if it thinks that way. Simply at certain point the irredentist goals did fit well with either neo-liberal or neo-con agenda. Or simply helped the lemmings (and Monica) to swallow... the pill.

-...By all means. Just make sure to let us know when you are coming. Our welcoming committee is world renown for their hospitality.(flashback)-

Boy, flashback, you said a mouthful! talk about spilling the beans.

yes, yr "welcoming committees" are quite world famous -- we're still digging up their expert work all over the balkans so indeed, i don't question yr boast, esp in regards to unarmed civilians.

i do think it is one mistake that some of my Kosovar colleagues make, to minimize the capability or potential of these "welcoming committees." i suggest a trip to tuzla's House of Death, like my frnd and I made a few years ago, or even a guest visit to one of the numerous mass graves exhumations. those have taken a brief respite for about the last month now -- but no worry, they'll be more. plenty more. 'cept for the bodies that were burned, ground, pulverized, or otherwise disposed of in assorted creative ways. those have just disappeared into the wind -- poof! -- and no one dares to bring it up. why spoil someone's dinner?


roberto
frisco

“It is uncertain how FM Vuk Jeremić’s decision not to send the Serbian ambassador to the Nobel ceremony would affect his credibility in the country and abroad.”
Now who really cares about what the west thinks about Serbian western credibility? All this means is that it did not get its way and sour grapes are on the table. What credibility are these clowns talking about? How is the US credibility standing up when the purveyors of human rights and democracy were discovered to be torturing prisoners in Abu Grahib goal in Iraq? Where is there credibility when they invaded Iraq on the basis of weapons of mass destruction? Credibility; Crap more like it!
The fact that Jeremic did not send his ambassador to this farce of an award shows that when “push comes to shove” it’s looking after its interests first and this is a shock to the western drones. Sending an Ombudsman is meaningless, they could have sent my next door neighbor for all it matters – it the Ambassador that counts, but I suppose that the western hangers on need to show some level of groveling considering the money they receive for trying to sell out the Serbs.

(iliri, 11 December 2010 19:17)
“I would rather spend my money on nike shoes and eat burger king, rather than not have money at all and moreover forced into learning serbo-croatian at school”
What are you doing on a Serbian-based media website if you hate the “serbo-croation” language? Surely there is an Albanian facility offering you a place where you can vent your BS? No there isn’t one! What a surprise considering we have such an old Illyrian civilisation in the Balkans.
The stupidity of your commentary is staggering to say the least.

(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40)

“No the humungous debt does not mean anything” The orchestra is still playing; wait till the music stops and you begin to pay.
“better place to live than China’ – this is a typical comment from an immigrant living in the US that has seen nothing of the world let alone Asia. Working for peanuts or $6 per hour and calling it heaven. When you have travelled to China and seen what is going on then talk about it – please don’t rely on your US propaganda. For your information there are thousands upon thousands of westerns working and living in China.

now that the north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)
Are the goats and donkey well fed? It’s difficult to launch such an expedition with the animals in poor conditions – why they would just collapse at the first charge against the tanks.

"That is the thing about Albanians and why they are the least developed in the region. You gave up on the Chinese just as they were beginning to get strong. You joined the Nazi's at their peak, just as they were about to be destroyed. You also join the West at its peak, just as it begins to crumble. You keep changing sides at the worst possible time.

There is a saying in the trading world. Bears make money, Bulls make money but Pigs get slaughtered.

So watch the Albanians, see which side they've changed to and expect it to crumble. It is a very good indicator. Serbians on the other hand always choose the right side but we are just a bit early so we tend to suffer first before things turn our way. Now that's just my observation.
Zoran

- Zoran, Albania was the least developed in the region bc it her idiot dictator Hoxha. His paranoia and desire to stay in power held back the country.
Albania has made significant strides since the fall of communism, and especially in the last 10 years. It's practically a different country compared to what it was during Hoxha.

And, there are major developments in the works that should result in a major influx of foreign investments which, of course, will raise the standard of living.

I know you don't like to hear it but Albania has been moving forward while you beloved Serbia has not.

As far as Kosovo, it was purposely impoverished by Serbia. Things are looking up for Kosovo, also.


"So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?
lowe"

- It is you who is naive!
Reread the thread you posted and think again.

You claim that Albanians have manipulated the great powers!?

We wish we could take credit for that but there was no manipulation. Serbia tried to but was unsuccessful.

Great powers are not manipulated so easily!

Jeremic wants to be seen by the wider electorate that he is defending the real Serbian interests and literally seperating himself from Tadic and co. He is obviouslly positioning himself for the top job. Even Blind Freddy can see this.
Serbias future lies in Europe. The EU welcome that , the US welcome that , heck even Russia and china welcome that becuase they will have an ally smack bang in the middle of the political and economic competition. Jeremic'c path of distancing himself from Europe and the west and engaging China will only lead to geopolitical isolation and stagnation for Serbia. Serbias home was , is and will be European. To deny this is to deny reality.

As soon as Serbia ditches fools like Jeremic , the better and clearer their future is.

Boy, flashback, you said a mouthful! talk about spilling the beans.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 12 December 2010 01:54)

Rather thanks to you for spilling the beans. Bravo - you openly support Albanian military invasion of neighbor countries. Clap, clap, now we know there are weird shrooms around SF in abundance. And after reading the first few lines no one cares anymore about Tuzla.

Clap, clap - this is a disgrace for victims of that tragedy. Are you 100% OK? Can't imagine a worse "advocacy". Are you working for Šešelj in secret or what?

“I gave you plenty of examples. Here is another one. US treasury borrowed 45 billion to bail out Citigroup in 2008, and now it is getting back more than 57 billion, so the US treasury is getting a profit of 12 billion from that transaction. That means an annualized return on 12.5%, when the US pays about 1% for an 2-year note. So, the US treasury got a net return of 11.5% from that transaction.

Lowe, rest assured that the math of interest arbitrage always works. Here is the general example that I have repeated it countless times for you, but you still don’t understand: A borrows $1000 from B at 2%, then A lends $ 1000 to C at 4%. As a result, A has a net gain of 2% (or $20) from this operation. However, if A just uses the $1000 for food, than A has an interest cost of $20. So, in conclusion, borrowing could be good or could be bad; depends on what’s the purpose. Do you have any facts what US is using the borrowed funds for, and I can tell you whether borrowing is good or bad.”


Is the Citigroup example representative of the activities of the Yankee government that led to the humongous debt? Or was it in fact just mainly borrowing to finance non-profit yielding activities (eg. to finance expensive foreign wars or expensive social/health care benefits) that led to the huge debt? Unless you can show that your Citigroup example is representative, I don’t think it can be considered reliable as a counter proof. Especially when combined with reports about Yankees worrying about their nation’s debts.


“I don’t trust politicians as a matter of principle, let alone the Yankee ones (but, of course, you are free to have a high regard for the Yankees). I only trust the data. I know that for you, if something is said by somebody else, that is sufficient for you. But I like to see the underlying arguments and facts.”

So Obama is a liar in your books? He will risk his entire credibility before his entire electorate by lying about the state of the US economy? What good will this do his reputation? If indeed, the US debt situation is such a blissful state of affairs as you think, don’t you think Obama and his entire government would have pounced and capitalized on that already????? WHY WOULD HE DELIBERATELY HIDE GOOD NEWS FROM HIS OWN PEOPLE AND INSTEAD GIVE THEM FALSE BAD ONES? I hope you can see now how illogical your trend of thought is.

It is not only Yankee politicians that are worried. So are Yankee journalists, finance talk show hosts like Suze Orman, and even ordinary Americans if you should care to check their blogs or forums online. That there appears to be so many of them worried about their debts would make the negative scenario more likely than your positive Citigroup-inspired one which is probably not representative of the real situation.


“Thanks for the chance, but it’s a moot point. I would not trust them anyway, even if they support my argument. I trust the data. And when the data will show that you are right, of course I will say that you are right… “

I put to you that you do not have any evidence to show that the Yankees are happy about their humongous debts and in fact want to increase them even more.



“Well, I don’t think that capitalism is the heaven, too. It’s not a coincidence though that the most developed countries and the BRICS adopt today some form of capitalism.
(icj1, 15 December 2010 10:04)”

Only it is not unbridled capitalism.

“Data please ? Worries or cheers of joy don’t make arguments! “

Since you are the one who brought in these 2 companies, the onus is on YOU to show that their situation is the same as the Yankee economy and that therefore there are no reasons for worries and everything is just fine and dandy. The onus is on you prove their similarity – which obviously must include the views of their important officials, namely the CEOs (for these companies) and Obama (for the Yankee economy). Obama’s worries may be trivial to you but I’m sure they are very real to him and lots of Americans. He is obviously worried about the Yankee economy in the way the CEOs are not about their companies, and only an ostrich with its hand resolutely stuck inside the sand like you would trivialize the humongous debts of the US and assume that they are doing great and better than ever.


“Bailing them out was not the goal per se… It was a tool to achieve a net economic benefit in the medium term"

But you stated previously that the goal was to bail out Citigroup, not with the profit motive in mind! Is this your about turn now? And isn’t Citigroup part of the Yankee economy too? So if someone (the government) lends money to someone else (Citigroup) from the same country, you call that’s a net benefit to that country????? So if a husband lends his wife money to rescue her from her financial troubles, that’s making profits for their family???????

“Worries are not facts! Also I did not assume that some examples are representative of everything. I just showed it is possible for debt to be god, as, of course, it could be bad. But, I’m not taking a position precisely because I can’t find examples or data that are representative of everything. “

Debts that are “good” (your word) should not create statements of worries or concern from people at the top. Which would suggest that the negative scenario for the Yankees are more likely than the good one favored by you albeit without any evidence on your part to show that this is really the case.


“Data please! Delight or lack thereof is not proof (especially when it comes from a Yankee – sorry I know you trust them, but I don’t). “

I think the Yankees’ concerns for their economy are genuine. Why should they pretend to be miserable for the fun of it? And again I don’t think they will thank you anytime soon for trivializing their concerns.


“Indeed, as we said unbridled capitalism does not exist because Adam Smith’s invisible hand does not always work
(icj1, 6 January 2011 06:32)”

The likes of Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln must be turning in their graves!

“I did not say that there are no reasons for worries. I just said, debt could be good, as it could be bad. Now, the question is whether the US debt is actually good or bad. I told and I’m telling you again that I don’t know. So what do you want me to prove ? Something I’m telling you I don’t know ! On the other hand, if you take a position that it is good, you have to prove it with data. If you take a position that it is bad, again you have to prove it with data.”

The fact remains that since you brought in these 2 companies, it is your responsibility (not mine) to show that their situation is entirely similar as the US economy, and hence Obama, Yankee politicians and people are needlessly being worried about their economy. And if you really don’t know, then you can’t use these companies to contradict my news sources that formed the basis of my views.




“I said “net economic benefit”…. Also, I did not say that the goal was to bail out Citigroup”

Well you stated that “ I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes.” So the US government wanted to bail out Citigroup and did so. You just contradicted yourself.



“Yes, it is possible, but I need the data, not words. “

And I have said repeatedly -- in the absence of data (and relevant ones), articles news reports on the words of leaders are the best that one can rely on. It is a matter of opinion, and I have never said your opinion must tally with mine.




“Sure, I did not say their concerns for their economy are not genuine. However, I don’t get how that is proof whether the Yankees debt is good or bad.
(icj1, 5 March 2011 19:45)”

The words of affected people and their leaders as reported in what I consider to be credible news sources are good enough for me and for online forums like this one. If you would care to look at links provided by other posters (including those that are pro-Pristina or Pro-Yankee), they often use news reports to support their views. If you distrust these news sources, then I think you are not in the right forum.

I was curious about the Philippines...

"The [Philippine] President earlier confessed that the government did not send any representative to the Nobel event in a bid to save five Filipinos in death row in China. Mr. Aquino initially claimed that the absence of the Philippine delegation to the Nobel ceremony was due to a conflict of schedule but later admitted that the safety of Filipino workers is a paramount concern of his administration." http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/292623/president-meet-thomas-touch-base-with-oldest-ally

Now let's see if he gets his people back.

(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40)
“No the humungous debt does not mean anything” The orchestra is still playing; wait till the music stops and you begin to pay.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

For your information payments are happening even now. Not sure what you’re speaking about. Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “you”. I don’t have to pay any of the debts we are speaking about here.


“better place to live than China’ – this is a typical comment from an immigrant living in the US that has seen nothing of the world let alone Asia. Working for peanuts or $6 per hour and calling it heaven.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

Ah those stupid millions of people who choose to emigrate to US and not the Chinese paradise. But what do they know. Come on sj; illuminate them about the Chinese paradise :)


When you have travelled to China and seen what is going on then talk about it – please don’t rely on your US propaganda.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

I don’t think US needs any propaganda. US is trying to keep people out, but they still find a way to get in there.


For your information there are thousands upon thousands of westerns working and living in China.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

I know that information. But generally Westerns don’t go to live in China. They go to work. Anyway, if you are so impressed by the Chinese paradise, by all means go live there. Just make sure to not express your opinions while there otherwise your only comfort may be a Nobel prize that Serbia may or may not attend :)

And I requested from you to show me over and over again that the US borrowed bigtime because it hopes to profit from the interest arbitraging. Which you have failed to show again and again.
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

I gave you plenty of examples. Here is another one. US treasury borrowed 45 billion to bail out Citigroup in 2008, and now it is getting back more than 57 billion, so the US treasury is getting a profit of 12 billion from that transaction. That means an annualized return on 12.5%, when the US pays about 1% for an 2-year note. So, the US treasury got a net return of 11.5% from that transaction.

Lowe, rest assured that the math of interest arbitrage always works. Here is the general example that I have repeated it countless times for you, but you still don’t understand: A borrows $1000 from B at 2%, then A lends $ 1000 to C at 4%. As a result, A has a net gain of 2% (or $20) from this operation. However, if A just uses the $1000 for food, than A has an interest cost of $20. So, in conclusion, borrowing could be good or could be bad; depends on what’s the purpose. Do you have any facts what US is using the borrowed funds for, and I can tell you whether borrowing is good or bad.


In fact, if you are right, then why do we keep reading about Yankee politicians and prominent citizens being worried about their country's debts? See for example [link] and [link] Even the Yankee president himself called for the debts to be reduced, not increased
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

I don’t trust politicians as a matter of principle, let alone the Yankee ones (but, of course, you are free to have a high regard for the Yankees). I only trust the data. I know that for you, if something is said by somebody else, that is sufficient for you. But I like to see the underlying arguments and facts.


Let me give you a chance to show "the other side" of the picture -- can you provide any credible sources that show that Yankee politicians are NOT worried at all about their humongous debts and in fact want to INCREASE them even more?
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

Thanks for the chance, but it’s a moot point. I would not trust them anyway, even if they support my argument. I trust the data. And when the data will show that you are right, of course I will say that you are right…


As for Europe's financial troubles, I see the root causes to be overspending and living beyond your means -- not unlike the Yankees actually as seen from the latter's mortgage fiasco a few years back. Material accumulation seems to be a prominent trait in captialism -- no harm in this but provided you can afford your purchases. In the context of Europe and the Yankees, it is probably the case of material accumulation WITHOUT being able to afford them. Hence the debt defaults, foreclosures and bankruptcies. And I didn't say that China is a fabulous place to live in. I was only questioning whether capitalism is really the utopia that some people seem to think.
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

Well, I don’t think that capitalism is the heaven, too. It’s not a coincidence though that the most developed countries and the BRICS adopt today some form of capitalism.

Is the Citigroup example representative of the activities of the Yankee government that led to the humongous debt? Or was it in fact just mainly borrowing to finance non-profit yielding activities (eg. to finance expensive foreign wars or expensive social/health care benefits) that led to the huge debt? Unless you can show that your Citigroup example is representative, I don’t think it can be considered reliable as a counter proof. Especially when combined with reports about Yankees worrying about their nation’s debts.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Well, I showed you the example of Citigroup and of PANYNJ that interest arbitrage works. Note, I’m not claiming that the US debt is good. I just showed theoretical and practical examples to convince you that it is possible for debt to be good, as it is possible for it to be bad. I’m not taking a position here.

Is the US debt is good or not ? I don’t know. It depends on what’s used for. So far you have spoken about worries, overall amount of debt, etc, etc., but no data at all on the crucial issue ? Is this debt resulting on a net economic loss for the US ? If so, it is bad; if not, it is good.



So Obama is a liar in your books? He will risk his entire credibility before his entire electorate by lying about the state of the US economy? What good will this do his reputation? If indeed, the US debt situation is such a blissful state of affairs as you think, don’t you think Obama and his entire government would have pounced and capitalized on that already????? WHY WOULD HE DELIBERATELY HIDE GOOD NEWS FROM HIS OWN PEOPLE AND INSTEAD GIVE THEM FALSE BAD ONES? I hope you can see now how illogical your trend of thought is.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

I did not say Obama is a lier. It’s me, you, him or the public being illogical – that’s a matter of opinion. However, the facts and data is not. And I told you what the data was. Do you need me to provide you examples of politicians being against the Citigroup bail out 2 years ago ? And if they had gotten their way and US had not borrowed for that transaction, the 12 billion of lost gain would have been peanuts, compared to the hundreds of billions that could have been lost from Citigroup’s failure.



It is not only Yankee politicians that are worried. So are Yankee journalists, finance talk show hosts like Suze Orman, and even ordinary Americans if you should care to check their blogs or forums online. That there appears to be so many of them worried about their debts would make the negative scenario more likely than your positive Citigroup-inspired one which is probably not representative of the real situation.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Facts please about the negative scenario… If we just go by hearsay, than Citigroup would not have been bailed out with catastrophic results. I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes. But hate and emotions should not overtake cold logic and cold logic dictated that it was economically beneficial to bail out Citigroup regardless of how cynical or unpopular that could sound. Emotions seldom lead to sound decisions.



I put to you that you do not have any evidence to show that the Yankees are happy about their humongous debts and in fact want to increase them even more.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

I never claimed that so I don’t have to prove that (and in any case happiness is subjective).

The only claim I’ve made and I’m making is that debt could be good or could be bad. It depends on the purpose the debt proceeds are used for. Do we agree on this ?



Only it is not unbridled capitalism.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Of course; and indeed unbridled capitalism does not exist in any major developed or developing country. The Yankees learned it 80 years ago that unbridled capitalism does not work.

Can you show that the CEOs of Citigroup and PANYNJ are worried about their companies’ debts in the way Obama and other Yankees are about their humongous national debt? I would think that the lack of complaints from these CEOs would probably indicate that their companies’ debts are ok. Similarly, the worrying noises from Obama and Yankees suggest the opposite story about the US debt.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Data please ? Worries or cheers of joy don’t make arguments!



So the main reason for the US government to lend Citigroup money was to bail them out, NOT with the profit motive in mind – which would contradict what you were writing about all this while about arbitraging right? The US actions were to rescue the banks and to prevent further losses, not to make money.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Bailing them out was not the goal per se… It was a tool to achieve a net economic benefit in the medium term



The fact (that you asked for) is that Yankees are worried about their national debt, losing their homes, jobs and so on. You on the other hand had failed to provide factual evidence about why they should not be worried. And as I mentioned already, you cannot assume without evidence that the benefits to Citigroup is representative of the Yankee economy as a whole.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Worries are not facts! Also I did not assume that some examples are representative of everything. I just showed it is possible for debt to be god, as, of course, it could be bad. But, I’m not taking a position precisely because I can’t find examples or data that are representative of everything.



In the Yankees’ case, I would think the debt is more bad than good precisely because no sane Yankee, not least the president himself, appeared to be delighted about the amount of the national debt and in fact actually want to increase the debt even further.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Data please! Delight or lack thereof is not proof (especially when it comes from a Yankee – sorry I know you trust them, but I don’t).



From what I have read or seen, with all the legislations that the US Congress had passed or are thinking of passing with regards to mortgage repayments, credit card debts, etc, the Yankees seem more and more like a centrally controlled economy nowadays!
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Indeed, as we said unbridled capitalism does not exist because Adam Smith’s invisible hand does not always work

Since you are the one who brought in these 2 companies, the onus is on YOU to show that their situation is the same as the Yankee economy and that therefore there are no reasons for worries and everything is just fine and dandy.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

I did not say that there are no reasons for worries. I just said, debt could be good, as it could be bad. Now, the question is whether the US debt is actually good or bad. I told and I’m telling you again that I don’t know. So what do you want me to prove ? Something I’m telling you I don’t know ! On the other hand, if you take a position that it is good, you have to prove it with data. If you take a position that it is bad, again you have to prove it with data.



But you stated previously that the goal was to bail out Citigroup, not with the profit motive in mind! Is this your about turn now?
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

I said “net economic benefit”…. Also, I did not say that the goal was to bail out Citigroup



Debts that are “good” (your word) should not create statements of worries or concern from people at the top. Which would suggest that the negative scenario for the Yankees are more likely than the good one favored by you albeit without any evidence on your part to show that this is really the case.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

Yes, it is possible, but I need the data, not words.



I think the Yankees’ concerns for their economy are genuine. Why should they pretend to be miserable for the fun of it? And again I don’t think they will thank you anytime soon for trivializing their concerns.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

Sure, I did not say their concerns for their economy are not genuine. However, I don’t get how that is proof whether the Yankees debt is good or bad.



The likes of Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln must be turning in their graves!
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

They may have turned long ago :)

in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)
--
Please, it seems your memory has problems. You forgot to mention the US was deeply involved in both conflicts. In both Vietnam and KiM, they were active aggressors and just like Vietnam, they didn't achieve their goal in KiM either. They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.

I don't have anything personal against Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo but it's a shame his efforts are politicised in a way where the pot calls the kettle black.

Now listen to what this dissident has to say.

"To radically shift regime behavior we must think clearly and boldly for if we have learned anything, it is that regimes do not want to be changed."

"We must think beyond those who have gone before us and discover ... changes that embolden us with ways to act in which our forebears could not."

"the more secretive or unjust an organisation is, the more ... induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. ... Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, ... ... leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance."

Now why do so many people justify this person being in jail? Doesn't that sound like a person with a noble cause? It seems most ethnic Albanians and their supporters (i.e. Joe and the gang) have an issue with this? Why?

Reminds me of Enver Hoxha. A true patriot indeed. Yet, even E Hoxha gave up the chinise...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 12:21)
--
That is the thing about Albanians and why they are the least developed in the region. You gave up on the Chinese just as they were beginning to get strong. You joined the Nazi's at their peak, just as they were about to be destroyed. You also join the West at its peak, just as it begins to crumble. You keep changing sides at the worst possible time.

There is a saying in the trading world. Bears make money, Bulls make money but Pigs get slaughtered.

So watch the Albanians, see which side they've changed to and expect it to crumble. It is a very good indicator. Serbians on the other hand always choose the right side but we are just a bit early so we tend to suffer first before things turn our way. Now that's just my observation.

There is a huge difference between the vietnam story and the kosovo story...in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...stalin once had plans to help hoxha to annex kosovo, likewise he previously wanted tito to 'swallow' Albania , to bad comrade stalin died to soon... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...

Jeremic surely makes promises he can t keep... Pity they are going to put him aside, i was starting to like the way he does politics. I really wish by some chance jeremic becomes a president...a true anti-imperialist-revisionist. Reminds me of Enver Hoxha. A true patriot indeed. Yet, even E Hoxha gave up the chinise...

Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.

“China, like America and EVERY other country on the planet, wants the best for itself, and will only develop relations with those who will benefit China the most. If South Korea and North Korea were to go into conflict today, in no way would China support North Korea. They're not stupid.

It will be Serbs own fault if they end up choosing China instead of the US. Sure, what the Western media portrayed of Serbs in the '90s was disgusting, but that had more to do with their policy of containing Russian influence pretty much anywhere in the world, especially since they were (and still are) influential in Serbian politics. Alas, capitalism has proven to be an infinitely better system than communism, so, if Serbs decide to go down that road again (well, not really down that route, but on that side of the coin, if you know what I mean), then that's their own fault.
(Ari Gold, 11 December 2010 15:22)”

It is precisely because the Chinese want the best for herself that it will not in my opinion compromise her own claims to Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan by changing tack on the Kosovo issue. As for the Koreas, obviously you are so ignorant of the history of the Korean War. At the start, the North Koreans then were ALONE fighting the South Koreans, Yankees and the entire UN. The Chinese chose to help the North Koreans nevertheless and forced the West back from the Yalu River at the Chinese border to the middle of the Korean peninsular. In the context of today, the Chinese will not, in my view, abandon Pyongyang because North Korea’s collapse would herald a united Korea under Yankee influence right at China’s doorsteps. Yes, you are right about China looking after her own interest – and that’s precisely why she is not likely to tolerate a South Korean victory. And I think Seoul is not stupid either – they do such good trade and business with Beijing – why would they want to antagonize a nuclear power like China who gives them such good business opportunities in peace time?

As for the Serbs’ choice, well, I can’t answer for them. But looking at the humongous debts accumulated by the Yankees and the financial troubles plaguing various EU members, you will have to forgive me for being skeptical about the so called wonders of unbridled capitalism!

So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:26)

The tail does not wiggle the dog. Even if it thinks that way. Simply at certain point the irredentist goals did fit well with either neo-liberal or neo-con agenda. Or simply helped the lemmings (and Monica) to swallow... the pill.

"There is a huge difference between the vietnam story and the kosovo story...in the vietnam story, vietnamese were fighting against vietnamese...in the kosovo story, albanians fight agaisnt serbs and vice versa, different causes...stalin once had plans to help hoxha to annex kosovo, likewise he previously wanted tito to 'swallow' Albania , to bad comrade stalin died to soon... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46) "

You missed my point completely. My point was that the Yankees, as shown by the Vietnamese experience, have abandoned their faithful allies when it is expedient for them to do so. And history might just repeat itself on, who knows, Kosovo even.

So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?

no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)

The problem for you: you keep thinking about Big Albanian Nation.
On the other hand, America, EU, China, Russia keep thinking about Big Albanian Market, Big Albanian Resources and Big Albanian military bases.

At one point Big Albanian Nation concept is going to be in conflict with last three "Big" concepts, they are totally incompatible.

"Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.
(PRO-SERBIA, 11 December 2010 13:06) "

I don't think Serbians need to be overly concerned. The Chinese have ample reasons to keep "Kosova" in limbo at the UN -- Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang.

If history is any indication, the Chinese have remained loyal to the likes of North Korea and Myanmar. The Yankees on the other hand had abandoned the South Vietnamese to the Vietcongs.

now that the north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)

By all means. Just make sure to let us know when you are coming. Our welcoming committee is world renown for their hospitality. If you happen to choose rainy season for your arrival leave your Nikes at home and wear something with cleats, as we have steep hills and wouldn't like to see our guests slipping and falling on their faces and over one another on their way back home. Good luck!!!

I would rather spend my money on nike shoes and eat burger king, rather than not have money at all and moreover forced into learning serbo-croatian at school, i mean, why would an albanian need to learn a slavic language, we could care less about slavs, why spend effort on becoming a slav at all? To end up like Bosnia? No thanks ...also, Chinese and Rep o Albania Gov have splendid relations since after early 90s...even up to this day chinese historians appreciate our contribution to Chinese interests in UN, even in the Kosovo issue,unlike Russia, China is not forcing other countries not to reckognise the indipenence, it is staying neutral, in the jury of the court, the chinese represantative didn't vote against...in 1996 they even suplied us with their latest anti-tank and anti air rockets, and the chinese are willing to enhance collaboration in military and business once again, but we are getting better offers from the japanese so..., and our premier has been hosted several of times by the chinese highest leaders. You don't have to boycot a Nobel prize in order to look good in front the chinese...Albania is an idipendend country, and directs Her foreign policies according to our national interests...now that we mentioned ww2, how easily you forgot that it was Albanian partizans of Hoxha who defeated the nazis in Kosovo and even helped out his master tito in bosna, now that was a great mistake, instead of stoping our fight in Albania, Hoxha, traitor by default, helped re implent the yugoslva invasion in Kosovo...we were one of the nations that fought against nazis harder than any other nation in proportion to population, we were the only people in europe that did not submit a single jew or italian to the germans... unlike ustashe, balli kombtar faught against the italians, but when partizans assaulted them, they chose to ally with the germans, at condition that imprisoned albanian communist would not be executed, but would be released when the war ended, only one element was ruthless from balli, but serbia had nedic as well

Well, those who leave in Kosovo don't share your opinion.

I can call Serbia "the world largest prison"; but who cares about what I think. It's the opinion of the Serbs that matters because they live in Serbia.
(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:43)
--
Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to. It's the Kosovo Albanians who are applying for Serbian passports and now attempting to get Albanian citizenship so they can leave their prison camp. It is a sad thing but what I'm trying to say is the US has not reached it's objective and that is fairly obvious by the statements made on Wikileaks.

"Expect the Chinese will drop Serbia like a hot potato with regards to Kosovo Province.
(PRO-SERBIA, 11 December 2010 13:06) "

I don't think Serbians need to be overly concerned. The Chinese have ample reasons to keep "Kosova" in limbo at the UN -- Taiwan, Tibet and Xinjiang.

If history is any indication, the Chinese have remained loyal to the likes of North Korea and Myanmar. The Yankees on the other hand had abandoned the South Vietnamese to the Vietcongs.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 14:05)

China, like America and EVERY other country on the planet, wants the best for itself, and will only develop relations with those who will benefit China the most. If South Korea and North Korea were to go into conflict today, in no way would China support North Korea. They're not stupid.

It will be Serbs own fault if they end up choosing China instead of the US. Sure, what the Western media portrayed of Serbs in the '90s was disgusting, but that had more to do with their policy of containing Russian influence pretty much anywhere in the world, especially since they were (and still are) influential in Serbian politics. Alas, capitalism has proven to be an infinitely better system than communism, so, if Serbs decide to go down that road again (well, not really down that route, but on that side of the coin, if you know what I mean), then that's their own fault.

They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 16:25)

--First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

So keep laughing Zoran, and the likes.

Kosovazitaion will get for Serbia very expensive, no matter which side. Russians already got a good proportion (and I'm sure that they will continue to dig for more). Chinese will do the same, and in a way they already got much. Remember the 100 000 (or according some rumors say even a quarter million) unregistered Chinese in Serbia? This is just the beginning...

And still, no EU, no progress, no nothing, just a mere dream that those turbo capatilists of the BRIC states will share their wealth, something what those BRIC governments do not want to share with the absolute majority of their own popuplation.

"That is the thing about Albanians and why they are the least developed in the region. You gave up on the Chinese just as they were beginning to get strong. You joined the Nazi's at their peak, just as they were about to be destroyed. You also join the West at its peak, just as it begins to crumble. You keep changing sides at the worst possible time.

There is a saying in the trading world. Bears make money, Bulls make money but Pigs get slaughtered.

So watch the Albanians, see which side they've changed to and expect it to crumble. It is a very good indicator. Serbians on the other hand always choose the right side but we are just a bit early so we tend to suffer first before things turn our way. Now that's just my observation.
Zoran

- Zoran, Albania was the least developed in the region bc it her idiot dictator Hoxha. His paranoia and desire to stay in power held back the country.
Albania has made significant strides since the fall of communism, and especially in the last 10 years. It's practically a different country compared to what it was during Hoxha.

And, there are major developments in the works that should result in a major influx of foreign investments which, of course, will raise the standard of living.

I know you don't like to hear it but Albania has been moving forward while you beloved Serbia has not.

As far as Kosovo, it was purposely impoverished by Serbia. Things are looking up for Kosovo, also.


"So you admit that you Albanians manipulated the great powers for your irredentist goals? I don't think Tirana and Pristina will thank you for spilling the beans on them -- are you that naive?
lowe"

- It is you who is naive!
Reread the thread you posted and think again.

You claim that Albanians have manipulated the great powers!?

We wish we could take credit for that but there was no manipulation. Serbia tried to but was unsuccessful.

Great powers are not manipulated so easily!

-...By all means. Just make sure to let us know when you are coming. Our welcoming committee is world renown for their hospitality.(flashback)-

Boy, flashback, you said a mouthful! talk about spilling the beans.

yes, yr "welcoming committees" are quite world famous -- we're still digging up their expert work all over the balkans so indeed, i don't question yr boast, esp in regards to unarmed civilians.

i do think it is one mistake that some of my Kosovar colleagues make, to minimize the capability or potential of these "welcoming committees." i suggest a trip to tuzla's House of Death, like my frnd and I made a few years ago, or even a guest visit to one of the numerous mass graves exhumations. those have taken a brief respite for about the last month now -- but no worry, they'll be more. plenty more. 'cept for the bodies that were burned, ground, pulverized, or otherwise disposed of in assorted creative ways. those have just disappeared into the wind -- poof! -- and no one dares to bring it up. why spoil someone's dinner?


roberto
frisco

As for the Serbs’ choice, well, I can’t answer for them. But looking at the humongous debts accumulated by the Yankees and the financial troubles plaguing various EU members, you will have to forgive me for being skeptical about the so called wonders of unbridled capitalism!
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:10)

Humongous debt does not mean anything; it's the purpose of the debt that matters. As proven over and over again you can get a profit by borrowing low and lending high.

As for the financial troubles of Europe, that again does not mean anything. Europe is still a relatively better place to live than China. Is Europe an ideal place ? No, nobody is ideal. But still it is relatively better.

Boy, flashback, you said a mouthful! talk about spilling the beans.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 12 December 2010 01:54)

Rather thanks to you for spilling the beans. Bravo - you openly support Albanian military invasion of neighbor countries. Clap, clap, now we know there are weird shrooms around SF in abundance. And after reading the first few lines no one cares anymore about Tuzla.

Clap, clap - this is a disgrace for victims of that tragedy. Are you 100% OK? Can't imagine a worse "advocacy". Are you working for Šešelj in secret or what?

They ended up creating the world's largest prison and calling it independent.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 16:25)

Well, those who leave in Kosovo don't share your opinion.

I can call Serbia "the world largest prison"; but who cares about what I think. It's the opinion of the Serbs that matters because they live in Serbia.

No matter if the Serbian side had a preplanned scenario or not everybody did what he was expected to do/ Si if I were the Ombudsman I would do the same and if I were the President or the PM or the FM no matter what personally think I would definitely do the same. As cynic as the modern politics is …
What I really believe is that Serbia has no interest to irritate the second important ally of it’s own. So Vuk is right not to go there while all the rest are also right to formally condemn him. Serbia has to stop it’s primitive West backing strategy and use some of the Tito’s tactics !

FYI, the quotes mentioned below come from Julian Assange and not Liu Xiaobo.

Jeremic wants to be seen by the wider electorate that he is defending the real Serbian interests and literally seperating himself from Tadic and co. He is obviouslly positioning himself for the top job. Even Blind Freddy can see this.
Serbias future lies in Europe. The EU welcome that , the US welcome that , heck even Russia and china welcome that becuase they will have an ally smack bang in the middle of the political and economic competition. Jeremic'c path of distancing himself from Europe and the west and engaging China will only lead to geopolitical isolation and stagnation for Serbia. Serbias home was , is and will be European. To deny this is to deny reality.

As soon as Serbia ditches fools like Jeremic , the better and clearer their future is.

"Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to"
Zoran

But to travel they need money. With their very low salaries I am wondering how many go even as far as dreaming about a vacation in France or UK. They would go to Montenegro (bringing their own food to save) or Greece or to similar cheap countries.

Call Serbia what you want but there are many many countries we can freely travel to. It's the Kosovo Albanians who are applying for Serbian passports and now attempting to get Albanian citizenship so they can leave their prison camp. It is a sad thing but what I'm trying to say is the US has not reached it's objective and that is fairly obvious by the statements made on Wikileaks.
(Zoran, 11 December 2010 20:53)

Well, those who leave in Kosovo are satisfied that the US achieved for Serbia not to be in charge in Kosovo...

Even Serbia itself has recognized that Serbia is not in charge in Kosovo, thus recognizing the US achievement.

“- It is you who is naive!
Reread the thread you posted and think again.

You claim that Albanians have manipulated the great powers!?

We wish we could take credit for that but there was no manipulation. Serbia tried to but was unsuccessful.

Great powers are not manipulated so easily!
(metrod, 12 December 2010 00:36)”

metrod, it is you who needs to reread, not me! I was replying to iliri who wrote on 11 Dec that

“... no matter what the global politicis , Albanian Nation will manage to prevail, like we prevailed in 1913, in 1920, in 1943,in 1945, in 1999...we are small nation, and we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals... just have a look at balkan map of 1990 and look the map now...now that north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back... “

You have to be either blind or careless or both not to notice the sentence “we have to manipulate with greater powers to achieve our goals” in iliri’s post. It is iliri, NOT me, who appears to think that Albanians can and should manipulate to achieve their irredentist goals.

So YOU are the confused turkey, not me!

why would an albanian need to learn a slavic language, we could care less about slavs, why spend effort on becoming a slav at all?
(iliri, 11 December 2010 19:17)

Don't really know how to answer your question - but since he speaks Russian better than you - feel free to ask him:

http://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behgjet_Pacolli

"Humongous debt does not mean anything; it's the purpose of the debt that matters. As proven over and over again you can get a profit by borrowing low and lending high.

As for the financial troubles of Europe, that again does not mean anything. Europe is still a relatively better place to live than China. Is Europe an ideal place ? No, nobody is ideal. But still it is relatively better.
(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40) "

And I requested from you to show me over and over again that the US borrowed bigtime because it hopes to profit from the interest arbitraging. Which you have failed to show again and again.

In fact, if you are right, then why do we keep reading about Yankee politicians and prominent citizens being worried about their country's debts? See for example http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-11/u-s-is-bankrupt-and-we-don-t-even-know-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html and

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60R32K20100128 Even the Yankee president himself called for the debts to be reduced, not increased



Let me give you a chance to show "the other side" of the picture -- can you provide any credible sources that show that Yankee politicians are NOT worried at all about their humongous debts and in fact want to INCREASE them even more?

As for Europe's financial troubles, I see the root causes to be overspending and living beyond your means -- not unlike the Yankees actually as seen from the latter's mortgage fiasco a few years back. Material accumulation seems to be a prominent trait in captialism -- no harm in this but provided you can afford your purchases. In the context of Europe and the Yankees, it is probably the case of material accumulation WITHOUT being able to afford them. Hence the debt defaults, foreclosures and bankruptcies. And I didn't say that China is a fabulous place to live in. I was only questioning whether capitalism is really the utopia that some people seem to think.

I think we played it perfectly. We made it clear we sympathise with the Chinese position, but in the end acknowledged our responsibility as an EU applicant. No long term damage with either.

(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40)
“No the humungous debt does not mean anything” The orchestra is still playing; wait till the music stops and you begin to pay.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

For your information payments are happening even now. Not sure what you’re speaking about. Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “you”. I don’t have to pay any of the debts we are speaking about here.


“better place to live than China’ – this is a typical comment from an immigrant living in the US that has seen nothing of the world let alone Asia. Working for peanuts or $6 per hour and calling it heaven.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

Ah those stupid millions of people who choose to emigrate to US and not the Chinese paradise. But what do they know. Come on sj; illuminate them about the Chinese paradise :)


When you have travelled to China and seen what is going on then talk about it – please don’t rely on your US propaganda.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

I don’t think US needs any propaganda. US is trying to keep people out, but they still find a way to get in there.


For your information there are thousands upon thousands of westerns working and living in China.
(sj, 11 December 2010 22:53)

I know that information. But generally Westerns don’t go to live in China. They go to work. Anyway, if you are so impressed by the Chinese paradise, by all means go live there. Just make sure to not express your opinions while there otherwise your only comfort may be a Nobel prize that Serbia may or may not attend :)

And I requested from you to show me over and over again that the US borrowed bigtime because it hopes to profit from the interest arbitraging. Which you have failed to show again and again.
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

I gave you plenty of examples. Here is another one. US treasury borrowed 45 billion to bail out Citigroup in 2008, and now it is getting back more than 57 billion, so the US treasury is getting a profit of 12 billion from that transaction. That means an annualized return on 12.5%, when the US pays about 1% for an 2-year note. So, the US treasury got a net return of 11.5% from that transaction.

Lowe, rest assured that the math of interest arbitrage always works. Here is the general example that I have repeated it countless times for you, but you still don’t understand: A borrows $1000 from B at 2%, then A lends $ 1000 to C at 4%. As a result, A has a net gain of 2% (or $20) from this operation. However, if A just uses the $1000 for food, than A has an interest cost of $20. So, in conclusion, borrowing could be good or could be bad; depends on what’s the purpose. Do you have any facts what US is using the borrowed funds for, and I can tell you whether borrowing is good or bad.


In fact, if you are right, then why do we keep reading about Yankee politicians and prominent citizens being worried about their country's debts? See for example [link] and [link] Even the Yankee president himself called for the debts to be reduced, not increased
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

I don’t trust politicians as a matter of principle, let alone the Yankee ones (but, of course, you are free to have a high regard for the Yankees). I only trust the data. I know that for you, if something is said by somebody else, that is sufficient for you. But I like to see the underlying arguments and facts.


Let me give you a chance to show "the other side" of the picture -- can you provide any credible sources that show that Yankee politicians are NOT worried at all about their humongous debts and in fact want to INCREASE them even more?
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

Thanks for the chance, but it’s a moot point. I would not trust them anyway, even if they support my argument. I trust the data. And when the data will show that you are right, of course I will say that you are right…


As for Europe's financial troubles, I see the root causes to be overspending and living beyond your means -- not unlike the Yankees actually as seen from the latter's mortgage fiasco a few years back. Material accumulation seems to be a prominent trait in captialism -- no harm in this but provided you can afford your purchases. In the context of Europe and the Yankees, it is probably the case of material accumulation WITHOUT being able to afford them. Hence the debt defaults, foreclosures and bankruptcies. And I didn't say that China is a fabulous place to live in. I was only questioning whether capitalism is really the utopia that some people seem to think.
(lowe, 12 December 2010 06:56)

Well, I don’t think that capitalism is the heaven, too. It’s not a coincidence though that the most developed countries and the BRICS adopt today some form of capitalism.

Is the Citigroup example representative of the activities of the Yankee government that led to the humongous debt? Or was it in fact just mainly borrowing to finance non-profit yielding activities (eg. to finance expensive foreign wars or expensive social/health care benefits) that led to the huge debt? Unless you can show that your Citigroup example is representative, I don’t think it can be considered reliable as a counter proof. Especially when combined with reports about Yankees worrying about their nation’s debts.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Well, I showed you the example of Citigroup and of PANYNJ that interest arbitrage works. Note, I’m not claiming that the US debt is good. I just showed theoretical and practical examples to convince you that it is possible for debt to be good, as it is possible for it to be bad. I’m not taking a position here.

Is the US debt is good or not ? I don’t know. It depends on what’s used for. So far you have spoken about worries, overall amount of debt, etc, etc., but no data at all on the crucial issue ? Is this debt resulting on a net economic loss for the US ? If so, it is bad; if not, it is good.



So Obama is a liar in your books? He will risk his entire credibility before his entire electorate by lying about the state of the US economy? What good will this do his reputation? If indeed, the US debt situation is such a blissful state of affairs as you think, don’t you think Obama and his entire government would have pounced and capitalized on that already????? WHY WOULD HE DELIBERATELY HIDE GOOD NEWS FROM HIS OWN PEOPLE AND INSTEAD GIVE THEM FALSE BAD ONES? I hope you can see now how illogical your trend of thought is.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

I did not say Obama is a lier. It’s me, you, him or the public being illogical – that’s a matter of opinion. However, the facts and data is not. And I told you what the data was. Do you need me to provide you examples of politicians being against the Citigroup bail out 2 years ago ? And if they had gotten their way and US had not borrowed for that transaction, the 12 billion of lost gain would have been peanuts, compared to the hundreds of billions that could have been lost from Citigroup’s failure.



It is not only Yankee politicians that are worried. So are Yankee journalists, finance talk show hosts like Suze Orman, and even ordinary Americans if you should care to check their blogs or forums online. That there appears to be so many of them worried about their debts would make the negative scenario more likely than your positive Citigroup-inspired one which is probably not representative of the real situation.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Facts please about the negative scenario… If we just go by hearsay, than Citigroup would not have been bailed out with catastrophic results. I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes. But hate and emotions should not overtake cold logic and cold logic dictated that it was economically beneficial to bail out Citigroup regardless of how cynical or unpopular that could sound. Emotions seldom lead to sound decisions.



I put to you that you do not have any evidence to show that the Yankees are happy about their humongous debts and in fact want to increase them even more.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

I never claimed that so I don’t have to prove that (and in any case happiness is subjective).

The only claim I’ve made and I’m making is that debt could be good or could be bad. It depends on the purpose the debt proceeds are used for. Do we agree on this ?



Only it is not unbridled capitalism.
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:13)

Of course; and indeed unbridled capitalism does not exist in any major developed or developing country. The Yankees learned it 80 years ago that unbridled capitalism does not work.

Since you are the one who brought in these 2 companies, the onus is on YOU to show that their situation is the same as the Yankee economy and that therefore there are no reasons for worries and everything is just fine and dandy.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

I did not say that there are no reasons for worries. I just said, debt could be good, as it could be bad. Now, the question is whether the US debt is actually good or bad. I told and I’m telling you again that I don’t know. So what do you want me to prove ? Something I’m telling you I don’t know ! On the other hand, if you take a position that it is good, you have to prove it with data. If you take a position that it is bad, again you have to prove it with data.



But you stated previously that the goal was to bail out Citigroup, not with the profit motive in mind! Is this your about turn now?
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

I said “net economic benefit”…. Also, I did not say that the goal was to bail out Citigroup



Debts that are “good” (your word) should not create statements of worries or concern from people at the top. Which would suggest that the negative scenario for the Yankees are more likely than the good one favored by you albeit without any evidence on your part to show that this is really the case.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

Yes, it is possible, but I need the data, not words.



I think the Yankees’ concerns for their economy are genuine. Why should they pretend to be miserable for the fun of it? And again I don’t think they will thank you anytime soon for trivializing their concerns.
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

Sure, I did not say their concerns for their economy are not genuine. However, I don’t get how that is proof whether the Yankees debt is good or bad.



The likes of Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln must be turning in their graves!
(lowe, 6 January 2011 14:57)

They may have turned long ago :)

“It is uncertain how FM Vuk Jeremić’s decision not to send the Serbian ambassador to the Nobel ceremony would affect his credibility in the country and abroad.”
Now who really cares about what the west thinks about Serbian western credibility? All this means is that it did not get its way and sour grapes are on the table. What credibility are these clowns talking about? How is the US credibility standing up when the purveyors of human rights and democracy were discovered to be torturing prisoners in Abu Grahib goal in Iraq? Where is there credibility when they invaded Iraq on the basis of weapons of mass destruction? Credibility; Crap more like it!
The fact that Jeremic did not send his ambassador to this farce of an award shows that when “push comes to shove” it’s looking after its interests first and this is a shock to the western drones. Sending an Ombudsman is meaningless, they could have sent my next door neighbor for all it matters – it the Ambassador that counts, but I suppose that the western hangers on need to show some level of groveling considering the money they receive for trying to sell out the Serbs.

(iliri, 11 December 2010 19:17)
“I would rather spend my money on nike shoes and eat burger king, rather than not have money at all and moreover forced into learning serbo-croatian at school”
What are you doing on a Serbian-based media website if you hate the “serbo-croation” language? Surely there is an Albanian facility offering you a place where you can vent your BS? No there isn’t one! What a surprise considering we have such an old Illyrian civilisation in the Balkans.
The stupidity of your commentary is staggering to say the least.

(icj1, 11 December 2010 18:40)

“No the humungous debt does not mean anything” The orchestra is still playing; wait till the music stops and you begin to pay.
“better place to live than China’ – this is a typical comment from an immigrant living in the US that has seen nothing of the world let alone Asia. Working for peanuts or $6 per hour and calling it heaven. When you have travelled to China and seen what is going on then talk about it – please don’t rely on your US propaganda. For your information there are thousands upon thousands of westerns working and living in China.

now that the north is secure we can look finally east and south...who knows, maybe west as well, there where our great ancestor Phyrrus failed, we will someday get back...
(iliri, 11 December 2010 15:46)
Are the goats and donkey well fed? It’s difficult to launch such an expedition with the animals in poor conditions – why they would just collapse at the first charge against the tanks.

Rote K, I would disagree with you on this one.
In Tito's time world was simplier, much more under the table dealings are done now and thus harder to read and smell

In my opinion, the decision not to participate was wrong and participating by somehow arguing that participation is only out of respect to the host country but we don't think was a good idea to put something in China's face without aligning a bit, provocations don't solve anything bla bla bla ..., would have kept China in the comfort zone.

The only thing worst than an unappropriate decision is to change the decision. Guys!!?
If the decision came out not to participate, then at least try to use it to send a signal that EU&US and who knows who else have to work a bit harder on their stance towards Serbia as currently Serbia would view a special relation with China as more advantageous bla bla bla ... But don't change it!!
The only message that was sent now is that Jeremic is not credible and there's a fracture on your side of the table, thus a weakness that can be put to a purpose also for other issues in the future

I was curious about the Philippines...

"The [Philippine] President earlier confessed that the government did not send any representative to the Nobel event in a bid to save five Filipinos in death row in China. Mr. Aquino initially claimed that the absence of the Philippine delegation to the Nobel ceremony was due to a conflict of schedule but later admitted that the safety of Filipino workers is a paramount concern of his administration." http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/292623/president-meet-thomas-touch-base-with-oldest-ally

Now let's see if he gets his people back.

“I gave you plenty of examples. Here is another one. US treasury borrowed 45 billion to bail out Citigroup in 2008, and now it is getting back more than 57 billion, so the US treasury is getting a profit of 12 billion from that transaction. That means an annualized return on 12.5%, when the US pays about 1% for an 2-year note. So, the US treasury got a net return of 11.5% from that transaction.

Lowe, rest assured that the math of interest arbitrage always works. Here is the general example that I have repeated it countless times for you, but you still don’t understand: A borrows $1000 from B at 2%, then A lends $ 1000 to C at 4%. As a result, A has a net gain of 2% (or $20) from this operation. However, if A just uses the $1000 for food, than A has an interest cost of $20. So, in conclusion, borrowing could be good or could be bad; depends on what’s the purpose. Do you have any facts what US is using the borrowed funds for, and I can tell you whether borrowing is good or bad.”


Is the Citigroup example representative of the activities of the Yankee government that led to the humongous debt? Or was it in fact just mainly borrowing to finance non-profit yielding activities (eg. to finance expensive foreign wars or expensive social/health care benefits) that led to the huge debt? Unless you can show that your Citigroup example is representative, I don’t think it can be considered reliable as a counter proof. Especially when combined with reports about Yankees worrying about their nation’s debts.


“I don’t trust politicians as a matter of principle, let alone the Yankee ones (but, of course, you are free to have a high regard for the Yankees). I only trust the data. I know that for you, if something is said by somebody else, that is sufficient for you. But I like to see the underlying arguments and facts.”

So Obama is a liar in your books? He will risk his entire credibility before his entire electorate by lying about the state of the US economy? What good will this do his reputation? If indeed, the US debt situation is such a blissful state of affairs as you think, don’t you think Obama and his entire government would have pounced and capitalized on that already????? WHY WOULD HE DELIBERATELY HIDE GOOD NEWS FROM HIS OWN PEOPLE AND INSTEAD GIVE THEM FALSE BAD ONES? I hope you can see now how illogical your trend of thought is.

It is not only Yankee politicians that are worried. So are Yankee journalists, finance talk show hosts like Suze Orman, and even ordinary Americans if you should care to check their blogs or forums online. That there appears to be so many of them worried about their debts would make the negative scenario more likely than your positive Citigroup-inspired one which is probably not representative of the real situation.


“Thanks for the chance, but it’s a moot point. I would not trust them anyway, even if they support my argument. I trust the data. And when the data will show that you are right, of course I will say that you are right… “

I put to you that you do not have any evidence to show that the Yankees are happy about their humongous debts and in fact want to increase them even more.



“Well, I don’t think that capitalism is the heaven, too. It’s not a coincidence though that the most developed countries and the BRICS adopt today some form of capitalism.
(icj1, 15 December 2010 10:04)”

Only it is not unbridled capitalism.

“Well, I showed you the example of Citigroup and of PANYNJ that interest arbitrage works. Note, I’m not claiming that the US debt is good. I just showed theoretical and practical examples to convince you that it is possible for debt to be good, as it is possible for it to be bad. I’m not taking a position here.

Is the US debt is good or not ? I don’t know. It depends on what’s used for. So far you have spoken about worries, overall amount of debt, etc, etc., but no data at all on the crucial issue ? Is this debt resulting on a net economic loss for the US ? If so, it is bad; if not, it is good. “

Can you show that the CEOs of Citigroup and PANYNJ are worried about their companies’ debts in the way Obama and other Yankees are about their humongous national debt? I would think that the lack of complaints from these CEOs would probably indicate that their companies’ debts are ok. Similarly, the worrying noises from Obama and Yankees suggest the opposite story about the US debt.


“I did not say Obama is a lier. It’s me, you, him or the public being illogical – that’s a matter of opinion. However, the facts and data is not. And I told you what the data was. Do you need me to provide you examples of politicians being against the Citigroup bail out 2 years ago? And if they had gotten their way and US had not borrowed for that transaction, the 12 billion of lost gain would have been peanuts, compared to the hundreds of billions that could have been lost from Citigroup’s failure.”

So the main reason for the US government to lend Citigroup money was to bail them out, NOT with the profit motive in mind – which would contradict what you were writing about all this while about arbitraging right? The US actions were to rescue the banks and to prevent further losses, not to make money.


“Facts please about the negative scenario… If we just go by hearsay, than Citigroup would not have been bailed out with catastrophic results. I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes. But hate and emotions should not overtake cold logic and cold logic dictated that it was economically beneficial to bail out Citigroup regardless of how cynical or unpopular that could sound. Emotions seldom lead to sound decisions. “

The fact (that you asked for) is that Yankees are worried about their national debt, losing their homes, jobs and so on. You on the other hand had failed to provide factual evidence about why they should not be worried. And as I mentioned already, you cannot assume without evidence that the benefits to Citigroup is representative of the Yankee economy as a whole.



“I never claimed that so I don’t have to prove that (and in any case happiness is subjective).

The only claim I’ve made and I’m making is that debt could be good or could be bad. It depends on the purpose the debt proceeds are used for. Do we agree on this? “

In the Yankees’ case, I would think the debt is more bad than good precisely because no sane Yankee, not least the president himself, appeared to be delighted about the amount of the national debt and in fact actually want to increase the debt even further.



“Of course; and indeed unbridled capitalism does not exist in any major developed or developing country. The Yankees learned it 80 years ago that unbridled capitalism does not work.
(icj1, 23 December 2010 03:33)”

From what I have read or seen, with all the legislations that the US Congress had passed or are thinking of passing with regards to mortgage repayments, credit card debts, etc, the Yankees seem more and more like a centrally controlled economy nowadays!

Can you show that the CEOs of Citigroup and PANYNJ are worried about their companies’ debts in the way Obama and other Yankees are about their humongous national debt? I would think that the lack of complaints from these CEOs would probably indicate that their companies’ debts are ok. Similarly, the worrying noises from Obama and Yankees suggest the opposite story about the US debt.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Data please ? Worries or cheers of joy don’t make arguments!



So the main reason for the US government to lend Citigroup money was to bail them out, NOT with the profit motive in mind – which would contradict what you were writing about all this while about arbitraging right? The US actions were to rescue the banks and to prevent further losses, not to make money.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Bailing them out was not the goal per se… It was a tool to achieve a net economic benefit in the medium term



The fact (that you asked for) is that Yankees are worried about their national debt, losing their homes, jobs and so on. You on the other hand had failed to provide factual evidence about why they should not be worried. And as I mentioned already, you cannot assume without evidence that the benefits to Citigroup is representative of the Yankee economy as a whole.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Worries are not facts! Also I did not assume that some examples are representative of everything. I just showed it is possible for debt to be god, as, of course, it could be bad. But, I’m not taking a position precisely because I can’t find examples or data that are representative of everything.



In the Yankees’ case, I would think the debt is more bad than good precisely because no sane Yankee, not least the president himself, appeared to be delighted about the amount of the national debt and in fact actually want to increase the debt even further.
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Data please! Delight or lack thereof is not proof (especially when it comes from a Yankee – sorry I know you trust them, but I don’t).



From what I have read or seen, with all the legislations that the US Congress had passed or are thinking of passing with regards to mortgage repayments, credit card debts, etc, the Yankees seem more and more like a centrally controlled economy nowadays!
(lowe, 23 December 2010 10:57)

Indeed, as we said unbridled capitalism does not exist because Adam Smith’s invisible hand does not always work

“Data please ? Worries or cheers of joy don’t make arguments! “

Since you are the one who brought in these 2 companies, the onus is on YOU to show that their situation is the same as the Yankee economy and that therefore there are no reasons for worries and everything is just fine and dandy. The onus is on you prove their similarity – which obviously must include the views of their important officials, namely the CEOs (for these companies) and Obama (for the Yankee economy). Obama’s worries may be trivial to you but I’m sure they are very real to him and lots of Americans. He is obviously worried about the Yankee economy in the way the CEOs are not about their companies, and only an ostrich with its hand resolutely stuck inside the sand like you would trivialize the humongous debts of the US and assume that they are doing great and better than ever.


“Bailing them out was not the goal per se… It was a tool to achieve a net economic benefit in the medium term"

But you stated previously that the goal was to bail out Citigroup, not with the profit motive in mind! Is this your about turn now? And isn’t Citigroup part of the Yankee economy too? So if someone (the government) lends money to someone else (Citigroup) from the same country, you call that’s a net benefit to that country????? So if a husband lends his wife money to rescue her from her financial troubles, that’s making profits for their family???????

“Worries are not facts! Also I did not assume that some examples are representative of everything. I just showed it is possible for debt to be god, as, of course, it could be bad. But, I’m not taking a position precisely because I can’t find examples or data that are representative of everything. “

Debts that are “good” (your word) should not create statements of worries or concern from people at the top. Which would suggest that the negative scenario for the Yankees are more likely than the good one favored by you albeit without any evidence on your part to show that this is really the case.


“Data please! Delight or lack thereof is not proof (especially when it comes from a Yankee – sorry I know you trust them, but I don’t). “

I think the Yankees’ concerns for their economy are genuine. Why should they pretend to be miserable for the fun of it? And again I don’t think they will thank you anytime soon for trivializing their concerns.


“Indeed, as we said unbridled capitalism does not exist because Adam Smith’s invisible hand does not always work
(icj1, 6 January 2011 06:32)”

The likes of Adam Smith and Abraham Lincoln must be turning in their graves!

“I did not say that there are no reasons for worries. I just said, debt could be good, as it could be bad. Now, the question is whether the US debt is actually good or bad. I told and I’m telling you again that I don’t know. So what do you want me to prove ? Something I’m telling you I don’t know ! On the other hand, if you take a position that it is good, you have to prove it with data. If you take a position that it is bad, again you have to prove it with data.”

The fact remains that since you brought in these 2 companies, it is your responsibility (not mine) to show that their situation is entirely similar as the US economy, and hence Obama, Yankee politicians and people are needlessly being worried about their economy. And if you really don’t know, then you can’t use these companies to contradict my news sources that formed the basis of my views.




“I said “net economic benefit”…. Also, I did not say that the goal was to bail out Citigroup”

Well you stated that “ I accept that people in the US hated bailing out the rich financiers at Citigroup by increasing their debt when nobody cared to bail out ordinary people that were and are losing their homes.” So the US government wanted to bail out Citigroup and did so. You just contradicted yourself.



“Yes, it is possible, but I need the data, not words. “

And I have said repeatedly -- in the absence of data (and relevant ones), articles news reports on the words of leaders are the best that one can rely on. It is a matter of opinion, and I have never said your opinion must tally with mine.




“Sure, I did not say their concerns for their economy are not genuine. However, I don’t get how that is proof whether the Yankees debt is good or bad.
(icj1, 5 March 2011 19:45)”

The words of affected people and their leaders as reported in what I consider to be credible news sources are good enough for me and for online forums like this one. If you would care to look at links provided by other posters (including those that are pro-Pristina or Pro-Yankee), they often use news reports to support their views. If you distrust these news sources, then I think you are not in the right forum.