Ombudsman in Oslo "after talking to FM"

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.

It's a tricky one, but I think Serbia is better going to illustrate a better attitude to human rights.

Also, do you really want to be in a club with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other similar countries.

Ya sure it makes perfect sense I think so maybe a what ever bonvoyage happy trails send a post card to Vuk ,wish you were here not.

Thanks for the link Zoran, and pray tell about the Belgrade gossip on the street re. Pres. Clooney (or put it out via wikileaks!).

I don't think that Serbia should have changed their stance on attending (or 'semi' attending) - it looks like weakness. And while I agree with Andy that the current choice of bedfellows does not present the best image, the fact is that China is a very important and loyal ally.

It is the so-called democracies of the West who have forced Serbia into this position - they have made it impossible for them to move forward with the EU or the US because there is no respect or trust left, or any unity. It is collateral damage.

Plus, the Nobby Peace Prize has become a joke. The Finnish Toad was awarded, and also the entire organisation of Medicins sans frontieres for its work in Kosovo. It is so politically motivated now and toadying to those 'in charge'.

I think that it was a good statement to stay out of it, and also that Serbia should not to bother with the EU at all which is going down the hole faster than a terrier after a rat.

Screw China, they aren't going to get Serbia anywhere. Serbs will end up being left stranded when multi-national corporations, who fund China's economic and its mammoth economic growth, end up going elsewhere when they have enough of their pseudo-capitalist economic conditions.

I mean, what happened to Japan?

"But Janković says that "once he realized Serbia would not be represented", he "addressed the foreign minister (Vuk Jeremić) with a request to travel to Oslo on behalf of Serbia as an independent organ who deals with citizens' rights protection". "

This is confusing. Is he going on behalf of the STATE of Serbia or on behalf of a Serbian organization? The difference is crucial.

S

I think China will pay back Serbia fro saying and promissing one thing, and at the last moment doing the opposite. It remains to be seen in short future how China will punish Serbia for this betrayel.

This is confusing. Is he going on behalf of the STATE of Serbia or on behalf of a Serbian organization? The difference is crucial.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 10:15)

That's the stupid trick to keep the face: Neither the foreign monister nor the ambassador in Norways don't attend, to please China. A human right ombudsman is attending to show that Serbia, as a European nation and unlike China, has some respect for human rights.

Serbia stay out of Oslo. Wikileaks founder is critisized and hunted all over the Western world for telling the truth about American warcrimes etc while this chinese who critisizes China is seen as a hero in the West. Talk about hypocrisy!

Well, if the rumours going around Belgrade are true, Tadic is in bed a lot these days (if you know what I mean - wink wink).

After reading the Wikileaks from Belgrade, what is now obvious is that Jeremic is the workhorse of the DS and seemingly protecting Serbia's interests but whenever he is at the point of success, the sell-out Tadic is interrupted and essentially ordered to undo Jeremic's work.

It's time for Jeremic to leave the sell-outs and form his own party, if he doesn't get the sack in the mean time. He is the backbone of the DS and without him, the snake will be exposed.

Here are the Wikileaks cables concerning Serbia. Check http://46.59.1.2/origin/86_0.html

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.
(Terry, 10 December 2010 10:20)

Sure beats bombing them to stone age...the US way of doing business

Here are the Wikileaks cables concerning Serbia. Check
[link]
(Zoran, 10 December 2010 10:48)

This concerns me because it shows about the same approach what we see in cases of Saak and Iuschenko.

To be in Oslo is correct from moral point of view. However, this time it was done the most idiotic way, doing the biggest possible damage for the country.

See the chain of events:

#1: Jeremic announces it was a difficult decision, but.. OK, I disagree with that from moral point of view but as I said about three times and now the fourth at least - the "moral" does not exist at the country level. Very much disagreeing with the decision from moral point of view I have to admit, it made sense from political point of view.

#2: Chinese ambassador thanks Serbia. This is where the case should be considered to be closed.

#3: Tadic overrides the decision and sends the ombudsman. The only positive: this is a straight slap in the face of Roberto and by now he should walk with his tail between his legs. Unfortunately - I have to revise myself - it is childish to expect. Roberto will continue his "Mladic blahblah Tadic blablah Jeremic blahblah" tirades even if Serbia will become the 51st state and it's capital is Pristina. He is a maniac. Best is probably to ignore him.

#4: I have the fourth bet today. Namely that despite yesterday all over the Western news was that Serbia does not sends it's delegate to Oslo - today we won't hear anywhere that Serbia revised the decision. The negative propaganda was aired yesterday, no one will correct it. So Serbia did not score anything positive.

#5: I was probably incorrect in my assessment that the relation with China won't be damaged. The announcement was made AFTER the Chinese diplomat thanked Serbia and it is a slap in the face. Very stupid.

Conclusion: either you pee in public bath or you don't. One decision is practical but immoral - the other is moral but not practical. What you don't do: is to pee in the public bath while standing outside. Serbia did just somewhat like that.

This ombudsman is not a diplomat according to some online news sources. Whereas invitations to the ceremony were issued by Oslo to countries in which it has diplomatic relations with. So guests are expected to be diplomats or higher. If so, it might actually be a clever move by Belgrade to appease the EU enough while avoiding antangonizing the Chinese.

Yea this good cop bad cop game Tadic and Jeremic keeps playing, ain't working for Serbia. They might really believe they're so smooth and smart they can fool everyone but they really aren't. They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.

If so, it might actually be a clever move by Belgrade to appease the EU enough while avoiding antangonizing the Chinese.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 16:09)

If they would do it BEFORE the Chinese ambassador thanked - that would be indeed very interesting move. That way it was a total screw-up.

By the way - an other (unrelated) screw-up. After it was announced that Brazil and Serbia abolish visas in June... the MFA still does not know it and I know Brazilians who can't travel to Serbia because they can't get visa on the short notice now.

Reminds me that visa regime with Russia was abolished YEARS after it was announced.

Sure, all this can be done less clumsy way.

"They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.
johny

Yes, foolish game resulting in a big screw-up to use Ataman's expression.

Serbia did just somewhat like that.
(Je¿owo kupanje, 10 December 2010 12:56)
--
How right you are. It was the worst possible decision where we lose both ways. This isn't about human rights, it is political. Anyway, Tadic just embarrassed everyone and no-one is happy now. I suppose that's what happens when you sleep on the job.

"If they would do it BEFORE the Chinese ambassador thanked - that would be indeed very interesting move. That way it was a total screw-up.

(Ataman, 10 December 2010 16:37) "

On the contrary, methinks the Chinese were thanking Serbia for not sending any DIPLOMATS to the ceremony. If you could refer to another B92 thread which stated that "Beijing has sent letters to foreign ministries and embassies, urging the diplomats not to come to the ceremony and warning of the consequences to be borne by those who supported Liu Xiaobo." The thread is at http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=12&dd=09&nav_id=71405

Also, my hunch is that Belgrade would have already consulted the Chinese prior to their apparent "cave in" at the 11th hour to satisfy the West's ego -- perhaps one of Belgrade's "tactical moves" mentioned by the PM? Who knows? I suspect we may actually be giving the Serbians less credit than they deserve! :)

"#4: I have the fourth bet today. Namely that despite yesterday all over the Western news was that Serbia does not sends it's delegate to Oslo - today we won't hear anywhere that Serbia revised the decision. The negative propaganda was aired yesterday, no one will correct it. So Serbia did not score anything positive.

#5: I was probably incorrect in my assessment that the relation with China won't be damaged. The announcement was made AFTER the Chinese diplomat thanked Serbia and it is a slap in the face. Very stupid.

Conclusion: either you pee in public bath or you don't. One decision is practical but immoral - the other is moral but not practical. What you don't do: is to pee in the public bath while standing outside. Serbia did just somewhat like that.
Je¿owo kupanje

I agree. The conclusion is very funny. Good analogy.

I suspect we may actually be giving the Serbians less credit than they deserve! :)
(lowe, 10 December 2010 17:19)

In a completely different place some of us try right now to help two Brazilians to get a visa for Serbia. As B92 did report, visas were abolished in June. Turns out, it's NOT what the "reality on the ground" is. At the end of the day the Brazilians won't travel to Serbia this time. I mean they will - to the 15% of it's territory only, entering from Albania.

Getting visa turned out to be 100% impossible DESPITE the agreement(!), very unprofessional... and hey, the Brazilians will go to Slovenia, than to Croatia, than to CG, than to Albania, than to KiM, than to Macedonia. Because in addition to that hassle the fee for "maybe issued" visa will be 100 Euro. Because they already bought the airplane tickets, luckily not to Belgrade.

Faleminderit Serbian MFA, the next vacation of these Brazilians is Kosovo. And this time I am not joking, they (Brazilians) already looked for the restaurant in Belgrade where to spent New Year Eve.

This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.

Getting visa turned out to be 100% impossible DESPITE the agreement(!), very unprofessional... and hey, the Brazilians will go to Slovenia, than to Croatia, than to CG, than to Albania, than to KiM, than to Macedonia. Because in addition to that hassle the fee for "maybe issued" visa will be 100 Euro. Because they already bought the airplane tickets, luckily not to Belgrade. This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
(Je¿ kosowski, 10 December 2010 18:12) Yore wrong Croatia will be their first choice starting next year their will be regular direct flights from New York to Zagreb it will be the next major European hub Zagreb.

"This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
(Je¿ kosowski, 10 December 2010 18:12) "

You wrote a long mumbo jumbo in reply to part of my post which included your last paragraph above. I have absolutely no idea what you were getting at and have no intention of wasting my time trying to figure out.

In any case, the fact that the Chinese had not publicly voiced their displeasure up to now at Serbia's so called about turn on the ceremony speak volumes to me about what might have tacitly transpired behind the scenes between them.

That's the stupid trick to keep the face: Neither the foreign monister nor the ambassador in Norways don't attend, to please China. A human right ombudsman is attending to show that Serbia, as a European nation and unlike China, has some respect for human rights.
(Top, 10 December 2010 12:22)

Yes, if he would do that from the begin on - that would be probably politically correct. Now AFTER the Chinese ambassador said "xie xie" ("thank you") the case should be closed.

What I (as FM or president) would do: quickly resign BEFORE any decision was made and retire to take care about hamsters, badgers, hedgehogs and model trains in my garden. Just hope there is no snake there.

http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com

You wrote a long mumbo jumbo in reply to part of my post which included your last paragraph above.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 22:34)

I am just very p**ed off the way MFA seem to work. Beginning with this chaos around Nobel Prize (on global level) and ending with making many of us (on a very different forum) look like clowns. We do our best to spread the word "come to Serbia" all over the world. Based on announcements of MFA - as reported on B92 - lot of talk was done in Brazil, wasn't it reported that visa regime with Brazil was liberalized? And yes, some Brazilians decided to come to Serbia and spend ONE MONTH.

They were "welcomed" by 100 Euro visa fee and are being told, the news of lifting the visa regime was a mistake. Even worse - the visa procedure is now takes up to 30 days and people have to produce an invitation letter.

They already bought the airplane ticket - so now they travel to Pristina instead of Belgrade. This is genial, isn't it?

----

In any case, the fact that the Chinese had not publicly voiced their displeasure up to now at Serbia's so called about turn on the ceremony speak volumes to me about what might have tacitly transpired behind the scenes between them.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 22:34)

I have no proof to deny. But the way the entire circus played out today does not give me a lot of confidence. Just look at the communication between Tadic and Jeremic and shake your head in disbelief.

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.
(Terry, 10 December 2010 10:20)

Well said Terry. But by her actions, China has shown she has yet to fully mature as a nation that respects the idea of freedom of thought or freedom of expression. Her citizens deserve better.
The world expects better.

I suppose that's what happens when you sleep on the job.
(Zoran, 10 December 2010 15:26)

With whom?

Just back, as exception watched the TV because I was curious.
It looks like I am going to become drunk.

Because as it was reported yesterday that 18 countries abstained - the same was reported today: "18" and not "17".

NO ONE TOOK NOTICE, SERBIA CHANGED IT'S STANCE.

Thank you Serbia, my next vacation is Norway.

These tourists would however be wise to watch their backs and ensure their kidneys remain intact the end of their trip! LOL
(lowe, 11 December 2010 04:05)

What the citizens of exYU do to each other is one thing. The tourists are perfectly safe everywhere in exYU. Crimes against visitors do happen - but are exceptionally rare.

The complain from tourists regarding more serious crime are robberies on Adria. Usually it turns out, the perpetrators are other tourists.

BTW: the tourists are not angels at all. Very frequently Montenegrins and Croatians complain, tourists steal the food from open stands if the owner goes inside.

Yea this good cop bad cop game Tadic and Jeremic keeps playing, ain't working for Serbia. They might really believe they're so smooth and smart they can fool everyone but they really aren't. They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.
(johny, 10 December 2010 16:26)

Gjon - look at the "good job" MFA did with Russian (now: Brazilian) visas and you wonder, do they know how to locate their own body parts (no details, what parts!) or not.

I believe, it's not "good cop bad cop game" as you say - but genuine clumsiness beyond imagination. You just need more imagination.

Zoran wrote:"...it is obvious that Jeremić is the workhorse of DS..."
That's right, Zoran, a good workhorse turned in the Lazazel goat in advance appointed. Not kosher at all, thus won't bring forgiveness where it counts.

Perhaps this incompetence could be called "slampossag" or verdamte Schlamperei in German.
(Je¿ amerikanski, 10 December 2010 19:18)

Amer, I am sitting back (and I did not consume the four drinks yet) and thinking.
We need not CSA (Confederate States of America) - but CDS (Confederate Danubian States).

So far so good - but who would be the president?

Ivo Sanader? - yikes!
Viktor Orbán? - yikes!
Tadic and Jeremic - yikes, they just blew it.
Edi Rama? - let him rather paint the capital in pink and yellow.
Saak? Not just not Danubian, but also makes his pants stinky if a military airplane flies over his head.

And so on. My requirements:

1) Has to speak at least one major language and both Serbian and Albanian
2) Has to have enough money that HE would corrupt others, not others would corrupt him
3) Has to be buddy of Putin
4) Has to be buddy of Obama
5) Has to be buddy of Dubya
6) Has to be buddy of Corporate America
7) Has to be buddy of Albanian mafia
8) Has to be buddy of Russian and Chechen mafia, speak Russian at the native level
9) Has to be buddy of Homeland Security
10) Has to be buddy of Taliban
11) Has to have decades of corporate leadership experience.
12) Has to display an ability to "pursue" (see #2) a smaller island in the Pacific for any political cause.

Do you know such person... Because I do! Believe me, no Schlamperei would be allowed, LOL. He deals with renovation of Kremlin, Dubya, Putin, Chechen "friends", Talibs... there you have only one chance in your life to screw things up, usually it's the last one. He is still alive so probably he is a political genius.

“I am just very p**ed off the way MFA seem to work. Beginning with this chaos around Nobel Prize (on global level) and ending with making many of us (on a very different forum) look like clowns. We do our best to spread the word "come to Serbia" all over the world. Based on announcements of MFA - as reported on B92 - lot of talk was done in Brazil, wasn't it reported that visa regime with Brazil was liberalized? And yes, some Brazilians decided to come to Serbia and spend ONE MONTH.

They were "welcomed" by 100 Euro visa fee and are being told, the news of lifting the visa regime was a mistake. Even worse - the visa procedure is now takes up to 30 days and people have to produce an invitation letter.

They already bought the airplane ticket - so now they travel to Pristina instead of Belgrade. This is genial, isn't it? “

Well, the way I see it, Kosovo can do with every extra tourist given the state of its economy and unemployment rate. These tourists would however be wise to watch their backs and ensure their kidneys remain intact the end of their trip! LOL

“I have no proof to deny. But the way the entire circus played out today does not give me a lot of confidence. Just look at the communication between Tadic and Jeremic and shake your head in disbelief.
(Je¿ gniewny, 10 December 2010 23:59)”

Tadic’s fault in my opinion. As the overall guy in charge, he should be the one making clear what he thinks.

"What the citizens of exYU do to each other is one thing. The tourists are perfectly safe everywhere in exYU. Crimes against visitors do happen - but are exceptionally rare.

The complain from tourists regarding more serious crime are robberies on Adria. Usually it turns out, the perpetrators are other tourists.

BTW: the tourists are not angels at all. Very frequently Montenegrins and Croatians complain, tourists steal the food from open stands if the owner goes inside.
(Je¿ kradzieny, 11 December 2010 15:19) "

I was thinking about what I read regarding that infamous yellow house in Albania that processed human organs (without their owners' consent of course) when I made that kidney remark.

Do you know which nationalities those tourists who stole in Croatia and Montenegro belong to? Might be wiser for the governments of these countries to slap stringent visa requirements on these people. Otherwise they are just asking for trouble admitting undesirable foreigners.

Do you know which nationalities those tourists who stole in Croatia and Montenegro belong to? Might be wiser for the governments of these countries to slap stringent visa requirements on these people. Otherwise they are just asking for trouble admitting undesirable foreigners.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:18).

Bad luck - the country in question is in EU and they don't even need a passport to visit HR, SLO, BiH, CG, SRB. National ID or a driver's license with proof of citizenship is enough.

Since much more money is left than goods stolen the visa is not even on agenda. Some little re-education and gentle push to change the behavior won't hurt.

In Vienna with more-less success they just put in the native language a sign: "xyz countrymen, please don't steal". It worked, but it was very shameful. Probably it worked because it was very shameful.

It has much deeper roots and has nothing to do with the national character - more with the way the country was governed in last 100 or so years and how taxes were collected. For instance the current government of that place decided to steal all the private pension fund the people collected and raise certain taxes (severance packages paid in excess of ca. $20000) 7 years retroactively to 95%.

Well, if government steals that way and it's fine - than I can steal a stereo player, some fruit and don't pay for the gas at that Croatian place, that's fine too.

"Ah, thanks for clarifying; it was hard to make the connection to something that is just a speculation since the above has not been proved by a court
(icj1, 12 December 2010 01:20) "

A speculation which, nevertheless, just won't go away http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=12&dd=14&nav_id=71512 ..... I'm reminded of that English phrase -- where there's smoke, there's fire .....

"and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
Je¿ kosowski

Perhaps this incompetence could be called "slampossag" or verdamte Schlamperei in German.

"Yes, if it doesn't rain; in that case you may have smoke without fire :)
(icj1, 15 December 2010 10:19)"

you mean the smoke will appear by itself out of nowhere in Albania?

"it depends on the location, the amount of rain and vegetation... What location are you referring too ?
(icj1, 23 December 2010 02:32)"

You know .... in the location of that yellow house which seems to be attracting a lot of attention these days .......

JEŽ amerikansky, es ist ja zwei "m", verdammt!

I was thinking about what I read regarding that infamous yellow house in Albania that processed human organs (without their owners' consent of course) when I made that kidney remark.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:18)

Ah, thanks for clarifying; it was hard to make the connection to something that is just a speculation since the above has not been proved by a court

A speculation which, nevertheless, just won't go away [link] ..... I'm reminded of that English phrase -- where there's smoke, there's fire .....
(lowe, 14 December 2010 16:15)

Yes, if it doesn't rain; in that case you may have smoke without fire :)

you mean the smoke will appear by itself out of nowhere in Albania?
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:17)

it depends on the location, the amount of rain and vegetation... What location are you referring too ?

Well, if the rumours going around Belgrade are true, Tadic is in bed a lot these days (if you know what I mean - wink wink).

After reading the Wikileaks from Belgrade, what is now obvious is that Jeremic is the workhorse of the DS and seemingly protecting Serbia's interests but whenever he is at the point of success, the sell-out Tadic is interrupted and essentially ordered to undo Jeremic's work.

It's time for Jeremic to leave the sell-outs and form his own party, if he doesn't get the sack in the mean time. He is the backbone of the DS and without him, the snake will be exposed.

Here are the Wikileaks cables concerning Serbia. Check http://46.59.1.2/origin/86_0.html

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.

Thanks for the link Zoran, and pray tell about the Belgrade gossip on the street re. Pres. Clooney (or put it out via wikileaks!).

I don't think that Serbia should have changed their stance on attending (or 'semi' attending) - it looks like weakness. And while I agree with Andy that the current choice of bedfellows does not present the best image, the fact is that China is a very important and loyal ally.

It is the so-called democracies of the West who have forced Serbia into this position - they have made it impossible for them to move forward with the EU or the US because there is no respect or trust left, or any unity. It is collateral damage.

Plus, the Nobby Peace Prize has become a joke. The Finnish Toad was awarded, and also the entire organisation of Medicins sans frontieres for its work in Kosovo. It is so politically motivated now and toadying to those 'in charge'.

I think that it was a good statement to stay out of it, and also that Serbia should not to bother with the EU at all which is going down the hole faster than a terrier after a rat.

I think China will pay back Serbia fro saying and promissing one thing, and at the last moment doing the opposite. It remains to be seen in short future how China will punish Serbia for this betrayel.

Ya sure it makes perfect sense I think so maybe a what ever bonvoyage happy trails send a post card to Vuk ,wish you were here not.

It's a tricky one, but I think Serbia is better going to illustrate a better attitude to human rights.

Also, do you really want to be in a club with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other similar countries.

Screw China, they aren't going to get Serbia anywhere. Serbs will end up being left stranded when multi-national corporations, who fund China's economic and its mammoth economic growth, end up going elsewhere when they have enough of their pseudo-capitalist economic conditions.

I mean, what happened to Japan?

This ombudsman is not a diplomat according to some online news sources. Whereas invitations to the ceremony were issued by Oslo to countries in which it has diplomatic relations with. So guests are expected to be diplomats or higher. If so, it might actually be a clever move by Belgrade to appease the EU enough while avoiding antangonizing the Chinese.

Serbia did just somewhat like that.
(Je¿owo kupanje, 10 December 2010 12:56)
--
How right you are. It was the worst possible decision where we lose both ways. This isn't about human rights, it is political. Anyway, Tadic just embarrassed everyone and no-one is happy now. I suppose that's what happens when you sleep on the job.

Yea this good cop bad cop game Tadic and Jeremic keeps playing, ain't working for Serbia. They might really believe they're so smooth and smart they can fool everyone but they really aren't. They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.

"But Janković says that "once he realized Serbia would not be represented", he "addressed the foreign minister (Vuk Jeremić) with a request to travel to Oslo on behalf of Serbia as an independent organ who deals with citizens' rights protection". "

This is confusing. Is he going on behalf of the STATE of Serbia or on behalf of a Serbian organization? The difference is crucial.

S

Here are the Wikileaks cables concerning Serbia. Check
[link]
(Zoran, 10 December 2010 10:48)

This concerns me because it shows about the same approach what we see in cases of Saak and Iuschenko.

To be in Oslo is correct from moral point of view. However, this time it was done the most idiotic way, doing the biggest possible damage for the country.

See the chain of events:

#1: Jeremic announces it was a difficult decision, but.. OK, I disagree with that from moral point of view but as I said about three times and now the fourth at least - the "moral" does not exist at the country level. Very much disagreeing with the decision from moral point of view I have to admit, it made sense from political point of view.

#2: Chinese ambassador thanks Serbia. This is where the case should be considered to be closed.

#3: Tadic overrides the decision and sends the ombudsman. The only positive: this is a straight slap in the face of Roberto and by now he should walk with his tail between his legs. Unfortunately - I have to revise myself - it is childish to expect. Roberto will continue his "Mladic blahblah Tadic blablah Jeremic blahblah" tirades even if Serbia will become the 51st state and it's capital is Pristina. He is a maniac. Best is probably to ignore him.

#4: I have the fourth bet today. Namely that despite yesterday all over the Western news was that Serbia does not sends it's delegate to Oslo - today we won't hear anywhere that Serbia revised the decision. The negative propaganda was aired yesterday, no one will correct it. So Serbia did not score anything positive.

#5: I was probably incorrect in my assessment that the relation with China won't be damaged. The announcement was made AFTER the Chinese diplomat thanked Serbia and it is a slap in the face. Very stupid.

Conclusion: either you pee in public bath or you don't. One decision is practical but immoral - the other is moral but not practical. What you don't do: is to pee in the public bath while standing outside. Serbia did just somewhat like that.

"#4: I have the fourth bet today. Namely that despite yesterday all over the Western news was that Serbia does not sends it's delegate to Oslo - today we won't hear anywhere that Serbia revised the decision. The negative propaganda was aired yesterday, no one will correct it. So Serbia did not score anything positive.

#5: I was probably incorrect in my assessment that the relation with China won't be damaged. The announcement was made AFTER the Chinese diplomat thanked Serbia and it is a slap in the face. Very stupid.

Conclusion: either you pee in public bath or you don't. One decision is practical but immoral - the other is moral but not practical. What you don't do: is to pee in the public bath while standing outside. Serbia did just somewhat like that.
Je¿owo kupanje

I agree. The conclusion is very funny. Good analogy.

If so, it might actually be a clever move by Belgrade to appease the EU enough while avoiding antangonizing the Chinese.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 16:09)

If they would do it BEFORE the Chinese ambassador thanked - that would be indeed very interesting move. That way it was a total screw-up.

By the way - an other (unrelated) screw-up. After it was announced that Brazil and Serbia abolish visas in June... the MFA still does not know it and I know Brazilians who can't travel to Serbia because they can't get visa on the short notice now.

Reminds me that visa regime with Russia was abolished YEARS after it was announced.

Sure, all this can be done less clumsy way.

"If they would do it BEFORE the Chinese ambassador thanked - that would be indeed very interesting move. That way it was a total screw-up.

(Ataman, 10 December 2010 16:37) "

On the contrary, methinks the Chinese were thanking Serbia for not sending any DIPLOMATS to the ceremony. If you could refer to another B92 thread which stated that "Beijing has sent letters to foreign ministries and embassies, urging the diplomats not to come to the ceremony and warning of the consequences to be borne by those who supported Liu Xiaobo." The thread is at http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=12&dd=09&nav_id=71405

Also, my hunch is that Belgrade would have already consulted the Chinese prior to their apparent "cave in" at the 11th hour to satisfy the West's ego -- perhaps one of Belgrade's "tactical moves" mentioned by the PM? Who knows? I suspect we may actually be giving the Serbians less credit than they deserve! :)

Serbia stay out of Oslo. Wikileaks founder is critisized and hunted all over the Western world for telling the truth about American warcrimes etc while this chinese who critisizes China is seen as a hero in the West. Talk about hypocrisy!

Getting visa turned out to be 100% impossible DESPITE the agreement(!), very unprofessional... and hey, the Brazilians will go to Slovenia, than to Croatia, than to CG, than to Albania, than to KiM, than to Macedonia. Because in addition to that hassle the fee for "maybe issued" visa will be 100 Euro. Because they already bought the airplane tickets, luckily not to Belgrade. This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
(Je¿ kosowski, 10 December 2010 18:12) Yore wrong Croatia will be their first choice starting next year their will be regular direct flights from New York to Zagreb it will be the next major European hub Zagreb.

"What the citizens of exYU do to each other is one thing. The tourists are perfectly safe everywhere in exYU. Crimes against visitors do happen - but are exceptionally rare.

The complain from tourists regarding more serious crime are robberies on Adria. Usually it turns out, the perpetrators are other tourists.

BTW: the tourists are not angels at all. Very frequently Montenegrins and Croatians complain, tourists steal the food from open stands if the owner goes inside.
(Je¿ kradzieny, 11 December 2010 15:19) "

I was thinking about what I read regarding that infamous yellow house in Albania that processed human organs (without their owners' consent of course) when I made that kidney remark.

Do you know which nationalities those tourists who stole in Croatia and Montenegro belong to? Might be wiser for the governments of these countries to slap stringent visa requirements on these people. Otherwise they are just asking for trouble admitting undesirable foreigners.

Yea this good cop bad cop game Tadic and Jeremic keeps playing, ain't working for Serbia. They might really believe they're so smooth and smart they can fool everyone but they really aren't. They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.
(johny, 10 December 2010 16:26)

Gjon - look at the "good job" MFA did with Russian (now: Brazilian) visas and you wonder, do they know how to locate their own body parts (no details, what parts!) or not.

I believe, it's not "good cop bad cop game" as you say - but genuine clumsiness beyond imagination. You just need more imagination.

This is confusing. Is he going on behalf of the STATE of Serbia or on behalf of a Serbian organization? The difference is crucial.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 10:15)

That's the stupid trick to keep the face: Neither the foreign monister nor the ambassador in Norways don't attend, to please China. A human right ombudsman is attending to show that Serbia, as a European nation and unlike China, has some respect for human rights.

That's the stupid trick to keep the face: Neither the foreign monister nor the ambassador in Norways don't attend, to please China. A human right ombudsman is attending to show that Serbia, as a European nation and unlike China, has some respect for human rights.
(Top, 10 December 2010 12:22)

Yes, if he would do that from the begin on - that would be probably politically correct. Now AFTER the Chinese ambassador said "xie xie" ("thank you") the case should be closed.

What I (as FM or president) would do: quickly resign BEFORE any decision was made and retire to take care about hamsters, badgers, hedgehogs and model trains in my garden. Just hope there is no snake there.

http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.
(Terry, 10 December 2010 10:20)

Sure beats bombing them to stone age...the US way of doing business

"and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
Je¿ kosowski

Perhaps this incompetence could be called "slampossag" or verdamte Schlamperei in German.

Perhaps this incompetence could be called "slampossag" or verdamte Schlamperei in German.
(Je¿ amerikanski, 10 December 2010 19:18)

Amer, I am sitting back (and I did not consume the four drinks yet) and thinking.
We need not CSA (Confederate States of America) - but CDS (Confederate Danubian States).

So far so good - but who would be the president?

Ivo Sanader? - yikes!
Viktor Orbán? - yikes!
Tadic and Jeremic - yikes, they just blew it.
Edi Rama? - let him rather paint the capital in pink and yellow.
Saak? Not just not Danubian, but also makes his pants stinky if a military airplane flies over his head.

And so on. My requirements:

1) Has to speak at least one major language and both Serbian and Albanian
2) Has to have enough money that HE would corrupt others, not others would corrupt him
3) Has to be buddy of Putin
4) Has to be buddy of Obama
5) Has to be buddy of Dubya
6) Has to be buddy of Corporate America
7) Has to be buddy of Albanian mafia
8) Has to be buddy of Russian and Chechen mafia, speak Russian at the native level
9) Has to be buddy of Homeland Security
10) Has to be buddy of Taliban
11) Has to have decades of corporate leadership experience.
12) Has to display an ability to "pursue" (see #2) a smaller island in the Pacific for any political cause.

Do you know such person... Because I do! Believe me, no Schlamperei would be allowed, LOL. He deals with renovation of Kremlin, Dubya, Putin, Chechen "friends", Talibs... there you have only one chance in your life to screw things up, usually it's the last one. He is still alive so probably he is a political genius.

"This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.
(Je¿ kosowski, 10 December 2010 18:12) "

You wrote a long mumbo jumbo in reply to part of my post which included your last paragraph above. I have absolutely no idea what you were getting at and have no intention of wasting my time trying to figure out.

In any case, the fact that the Chinese had not publicly voiced their displeasure up to now at Serbia's so called about turn on the ceremony speak volumes to me about what might have tacitly transpired behind the scenes between them.

I suppose that's what happens when you sleep on the job.
(Zoran, 10 December 2010 15:26)

With whom?

"They're so transparent in this foolish game it is beyond belief. In fact it has turned more into two girls and one cup than good cop bad cop.
johny

Yes, foolish game resulting in a big screw-up to use Ataman's expression.

You wrote a long mumbo jumbo in reply to part of my post which included your last paragraph above.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 22:34)

I am just very p**ed off the way MFA seem to work. Beginning with this chaos around Nobel Prize (on global level) and ending with making many of us (on a very different forum) look like clowns. We do our best to spread the word "come to Serbia" all over the world. Based on announcements of MFA - as reported on B92 - lot of talk was done in Brazil, wasn't it reported that visa regime with Brazil was liberalized? And yes, some Brazilians decided to come to Serbia and spend ONE MONTH.

They were "welcomed" by 100 Euro visa fee and are being told, the news of lifting the visa regime was a mistake. Even worse - the visa procedure is now takes up to 30 days and people have to produce an invitation letter.

They already bought the airplane ticket - so now they travel to Pristina instead of Belgrade. This is genial, isn't it?

----

In any case, the fact that the Chinese had not publicly voiced their displeasure up to now at Serbia's so called about turn on the ceremony speak volumes to me about what might have tacitly transpired behind the scenes between them.
(lowe, 10 December 2010 22:34)

I have no proof to deny. But the way the entire circus played out today does not give me a lot of confidence. Just look at the communication between Tadic and Jeremic and shake your head in disbelief.

Very brave decision indeed. Serbia belongs to Europe and now proving this. China has a responsbility as a superpower to act like one, which means not to threaten small nations.
(Terry, 10 December 2010 10:20)

Well said Terry. But by her actions, China has shown she has yet to fully mature as a nation that respects the idea of freedom of thought or freedom of expression. Her citizens deserve better.
The world expects better.

you mean the smoke will appear by itself out of nowhere in Albania?
(lowe, 15 December 2010 11:17)

it depends on the location, the amount of rain and vegetation... What location are you referring too ?

I suspect we may actually be giving the Serbians less credit than they deserve! :)
(lowe, 10 December 2010 17:19)

In a completely different place some of us try right now to help two Brazilians to get a visa for Serbia. As B92 did report, visas were abolished in June. Turns out, it's NOT what the "reality on the ground" is. At the end of the day the Brazilians won't travel to Serbia this time. I mean they will - to the 15% of it's territory only, entering from Albania.

Getting visa turned out to be 100% impossible DESPITE the agreement(!), very unprofessional... and hey, the Brazilians will go to Slovenia, than to Croatia, than to CG, than to Albania, than to KiM, than to Macedonia. Because in addition to that hassle the fee for "maybe issued" visa will be 100 Euro. Because they already bought the airplane tickets, luckily not to Belgrade.

Faleminderit Serbian MFA, the next vacation of these Brazilians is Kosovo. And this time I am not joking, they (Brazilians) already looked for the restaurant in Belgrade where to spent New Year Eve.

This is 100% true, and if that's not a catastrophic incompetence than I don't know, what it is.

Zoran wrote:"...it is obvious that Jeremić is the workhorse of DS..."
That's right, Zoran, a good workhorse turned in the Lazazel goat in advance appointed. Not kosher at all, thus won't bring forgiveness where it counts.

JEŽ amerikansky, es ist ja zwei "m", verdammt!

“I am just very p**ed off the way MFA seem to work. Beginning with this chaos around Nobel Prize (on global level) and ending with making many of us (on a very different forum) look like clowns. We do our best to spread the word "come to Serbia" all over the world. Based on announcements of MFA - as reported on B92 - lot of talk was done in Brazil, wasn't it reported that visa regime with Brazil was liberalized? And yes, some Brazilians decided to come to Serbia and spend ONE MONTH.

They were "welcomed" by 100 Euro visa fee and are being told, the news of lifting the visa regime was a mistake. Even worse - the visa procedure is now takes up to 30 days and people have to produce an invitation letter.

They already bought the airplane ticket - so now they travel to Pristina instead of Belgrade. This is genial, isn't it? “

Well, the way I see it, Kosovo can do with every extra tourist given the state of its economy and unemployment rate. These tourists would however be wise to watch their backs and ensure their kidneys remain intact the end of their trip! LOL

“I have no proof to deny. But the way the entire circus played out today does not give me a lot of confidence. Just look at the communication between Tadic and Jeremic and shake your head in disbelief.
(Je¿ gniewny, 10 December 2010 23:59)”

Tadic’s fault in my opinion. As the overall guy in charge, he should be the one making clear what he thinks.

These tourists would however be wise to watch their backs and ensure their kidneys remain intact the end of their trip! LOL
(lowe, 11 December 2010 04:05)

What the citizens of exYU do to each other is one thing. The tourists are perfectly safe everywhere in exYU. Crimes against visitors do happen - but are exceptionally rare.

The complain from tourists regarding more serious crime are robberies on Adria. Usually it turns out, the perpetrators are other tourists.

BTW: the tourists are not angels at all. Very frequently Montenegrins and Croatians complain, tourists steal the food from open stands if the owner goes inside.

Do you know which nationalities those tourists who stole in Croatia and Montenegro belong to? Might be wiser for the governments of these countries to slap stringent visa requirements on these people. Otherwise they are just asking for trouble admitting undesirable foreigners.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:18).

Bad luck - the country in question is in EU and they don't even need a passport to visit HR, SLO, BiH, CG, SRB. National ID or a driver's license with proof of citizenship is enough.

Since much more money is left than goods stolen the visa is not even on agenda. Some little re-education and gentle push to change the behavior won't hurt.

In Vienna with more-less success they just put in the native language a sign: "xyz countrymen, please don't steal". It worked, but it was very shameful. Probably it worked because it was very shameful.

It has much deeper roots and has nothing to do with the national character - more with the way the country was governed in last 100 or so years and how taxes were collected. For instance the current government of that place decided to steal all the private pension fund the people collected and raise certain taxes (severance packages paid in excess of ca. $20000) 7 years retroactively to 95%.

Well, if government steals that way and it's fine - than I can steal a stereo player, some fruit and don't pay for the gas at that Croatian place, that's fine too.

I was thinking about what I read regarding that infamous yellow house in Albania that processed human organs (without their owners' consent of course) when I made that kidney remark.
(lowe, 11 December 2010 16:18)

Ah, thanks for clarifying; it was hard to make the connection to something that is just a speculation since the above has not been proved by a court

A speculation which, nevertheless, just won't go away [link] ..... I'm reminded of that English phrase -- where there's smoke, there's fire .....
(lowe, 14 December 2010 16:15)

Yes, if it doesn't rain; in that case you may have smoke without fire :)

Just back, as exception watched the TV because I was curious.
It looks like I am going to become drunk.

Because as it was reported yesterday that 18 countries abstained - the same was reported today: "18" and not "17".

NO ONE TOOK NOTICE, SERBIA CHANGED IT'S STANCE.

Thank you Serbia, my next vacation is Norway.

"Ah, thanks for clarifying; it was hard to make the connection to something that is just a speculation since the above has not been proved by a court
(icj1, 12 December 2010 01:20) "

A speculation which, nevertheless, just won't go away http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=12&dd=14&nav_id=71512 ..... I'm reminded of that English phrase -- where there's smoke, there's fire .....

"Yes, if it doesn't rain; in that case you may have smoke without fire :)
(icj1, 15 December 2010 10:19)"

you mean the smoke will appear by itself out of nowhere in Albania?

"it depends on the location, the amount of rain and vegetation... What location are you referring too ?
(icj1, 23 December 2010 02:32)"

You know .... in the location of that yellow house which seems to be attracting a lot of attention these days .......