"Rich should give away some of their wealth"

“If that applies to the United States and European Union, it applies also to Serbia,”B92

Hm., if I understand you'll go to Putin to give you some judo classes, tips and tricks for that..

Boris yore making the instant rags to riches cronies of Slobodan Milošević very nervous with that kind of talk. They will do the opposite and leave Serbia with their ill-gotten instant riches. As if you are speaking to some kind of moral people with a shred of a conscious or shame. They screwed the tax payers before out of their blood sweat tears investments in Serbia and they will do it again.

Zoran,

There should be an equitable tax system in Serbia. The more you earn, the more you pay. Appealing on the altruistic motives of the super rich isn't going to bring in the money. tax them.

How about the following:
1. Set a minimum wage and for people in that wage bracket, they should be kept out of the tax net. Those on less than €400 per month should not pay tax.

2. Impose levy of 2% on all assetts > €250,000

3. Salaries in excess of €50,000 p.a. 60% tax.

4. Leave state pension alone.

Thats a start rather than hit the little guy.

TIME FOR THE RICH TO PAY UP.

to have the richest people in Serbia carry the burden of the economic crisis and to have a part of their riches included in creating new opportunities for citizens by opening new jobs and for the education and health systems.
--
The title of this article is completely wrong. The rich shouldn't give away anything. The latter part of the article is correct. The government should create incentives for the wealthy (either through tax cuts or other means) to create job opportunities for the citizens.

I would personally participate but I have done my research and the tax system is Serbia is severely flawed. If I wanted to employ someone at minimum wage I would have to pay at least 70% in taxes and other duties. This is day-light robbery.

A good and efficient tax system is what generates opportunities and attracts business. Rather than relying on the wealthy, the sale of state assets and loans, this incompetent and sell-out government needs to be brave and think for a change. They are in control and they are the ones that can make a change, if they stopped thinking about their own pockets for a change.

Peggy, I tend to agree. The Australian tax system is pretty good and it is one of the few western countries that haven't seen a recession in a long time. It is still economically strong.

10% GST is excellent when compared to the UK, which is just about to increase VAT to 20% and Serbia having a PDV of 18%. I think most of the EU is at 17.5%

Income tax in the UK isn't too bad but there is also NI (national insurance) - another tax for health cover - which makes health cover free in the UK.

The problem with Serbia is that too many people work in the black market due to high taxes. We need to reduce taxes and get everyone onboard.

maybe tadic and milo as well as their friends and cousins should put up or shut up. To say such a thing, well we know how the bucks were arrived at

Niall, Serbia is not a rich country. If we didn't tax anyone earning less than €400 per month then 60% of the work force wouldn't be paying tax. I agree that we need a tax free earning bracket, which is an incentive to employ people in need. The government is paying health cover for the unemployed anyway.

I don't agree with just taxing the rich. There are always loopholes to get around things or to be based offshore. The government needs to have an efficient tax and import/export system. It needs to create incentives for investment and business opportunities. If you try to tax people and give them nothing in return, they will take their money and leave. If they can't they'll work in the black market, which is pretty high in Serbia at the moment.

TIME FOR THE RICH TO PAY UP.
(Niall O'Doherty, 23 November 2010 11:59)
=======================

Yes, but the rich never pay up anywhere in the world and they won't in Serbia either.
Time to redesign a tax system.
Nobody can escape the GST (Goods and Services Tax) we have here in Australia.
You just put 10% or whatever the government chooses to implement on most things and all will pay, including the tourists.
Everyone consumes so everyone pays.
There are other taxes and levies but this is a sure thing. Even the rich have to pay the GST.
Obviously nothing is as simple as what I just said but a system which nets everyone is not a bad thing. Naturally, not everything will have the GST imposed but most will.

I actually like the system here. Everyone pays a percentage of what they earn for Medicare and that goes directly to our health system. Everyone shares the burden. Hopefully Serbia will never adopt the American system.

Well Tadic is a politician and no doubt there are populistic reasons behind his statement, but I support a more even distribution of wealth in society in Serbia and elsewhere.

For that reason I support him and not Beko and company. In fact the last people I support are various 'busnessmen'. People say politicians are just as corrupt as those businessmen, well perhaps. But with one CRUCIAL difference, we can get rid of politicians by voting them out. Businessmen are not accountable in any meaningful sense, particularly in the Balkans. They are able to bribe, blackmail in these parts even more easily than in the west.

It is a well known argument used by defenders of the current system (of inequality) who claim that increasing tax makes business go abroad. Its fair to say that some might take their investment abroad, but its also fair to say that the large majority will not. In the Serbian case the Beko's and Miskovic's of this world are most familiar with the Serbian market - they have people on their payrolls in different sectors including politicians and media. Would they be willing to start from scratch in other countries, greasing the palms of hundreds more people.

In any case if we are so concerned with these businessmen and their going abroad should we also make them exempt from the law. Surely we need Karic, Subotic and many others to be investing in Serbia. Never mind if they are crooked and break the law - they provide jobs...?

No Zoran my argument is that rich businessmen should be prosecuted just as any other (poorer) individual would be for breaking the law. Some are not more 'equal' than others.

What I'm saying is that excuses are constantly made (usually via neo-liberal trickle down theory) as to why rich (and / or corrupt) businessmen should pay less taxes. The excuses are based around the fact that - they might not invest in the country and employment will be reduced as a result.

Using the same logic if these businessmen are prosecuted they will not invest in the country and employment will be reduced. Why prosecute them then. Does the logic not stand up?

My opinion is that its time that the tax havens abroad you spoke of are closed down in a coordinated international effort. Why aren't they? Could it be because international corporations bribe governments to ensure that legislation never comes to pass? No, they are good guys, they only want to employ the poor and spread the wealth around!!!

But at the end of the day it boils down to this question - are you happy with the gap between rich and poor in society and do you think that reducing taxes will make this increase larger or smaller? Answer that if you can.

In my opinion its not about hard hearted economics, primarily its about what is right, the profit of the rich is a lesser concern to me.

Surely we need Karic, Subotic and many others to be investing in Serbia. Never mind if they are crooked and break the law - they provide jobs...?
(bganon, 23 November 2010 13:28)
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So your essential arguement is - let these people keep paying (bribing) the government and media so they remain in power (and rich) but they just need to help with the state budget a bit more?

You'll probably find that the richest countries in the world have efficient, simply and low rate tax systems. This probably doesn't suit the government because it will introduce more competition and upset certain business people, meaning some government members and media have less money in their personal pockets.

I am not surpised the Chinese are having difficulties building the largest shopping centre in the Balkans in Serbia. Who lined the pockets of this DS led government to keep them out?

Be careful guys/girls regarding the tax. It's way to easy to say "let the rich pay"... and it does not work. At the end it's the small guy who lands up paying.

#1: Serbia has to attract the capital, not to scare it away
#2: Taxing the "rich" corporations won't do any good for poor - because guess who will pay more. The corporations will just pass the burden to the customer.

But I have to admit, that sounds pretty populistic. I just expected better from Tadic.

Most of the taxes we pay land up feeding the bureaucratic system, so much more depends on that system than we like to see. In human history taxes over 10% were considered straight robbery - now nearly every country has much higher rates. If the country maintains an extensive infrastructure than I can understand. But what if the talk is about to privatize everything - from Telekom till healthcare, railways and airlines... but the taxes are still high? Good ole' State does not want to care about what they SHOULD take care off... but they still ask for money.

OK, fine - either way, Persian way or Libertarian way... but NOT "neo-liberal" way ("we feel free to sell anything of State responsibilities/assets we like for whatever price. In exchange we feel free to ask you to pay as much taxes as we want"). Usually in history the Persian one worked out better than libertarian. Infrastructure was never a profitable business - and telecom, railway, airline, healthcare IS INFRASTRUCTURE. Healthy business does depend on infrastructure, so please - we need it. We need fast, clean comfortable trains, good roads, safe airlines, healthcare, safe cities - all for CHEAP or for FREE and guaranteed by the State. In exchange, we pay taxes. That's the way one of the most successful empires (Sassanid Empire, Persia) did work for hundreds and hundreds of years. In the fact, hotels were for free or nearly for free - in the hope, foreign merchants will come and trade THERE, not somewhere else.

OK, this is about "Persian" versus "Libertarian" way. Now we have two more ways:

- "neo-conservative" ( = "I am conserving the content of my valet to the maximum, screw yours")
- "neo-liberal" ( = "I have my liberties, screw yours. I have liberty to sell of state assets, liabilities and responsibilities to whom I want for whatever price. And you feel free to pay as much taxes as I demand")

These aren't new, in times of Emperor Chosroes "neo-conservatives" and "neo-liberals" did exist, too - but they were called plainly "thieves", now we are more politically correct. ;-)

Haven't you all figured out socialism doesn't work? What is needed is an axing of government spending combined with removal of regulations. Mafia is only in power because of all of these stupid laws and taxes everyone is mentioning. Without them there is no black market and no need for anyone to find it. May i suggest reading human action by Ludwig von Mises

We are hearing the same kind of nonsense from Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Notice how they never talk about who or what these charities are. Who is about to be receiving these vast sums of cash for doing nothing at all, just standing there with their hands out. It really makes you wonder how these guys made their money. It must have been just laying around or something.

Ridiculous. This welfare state idea is what attracted hordes of immigrants from outside Europe and endangered its natives by undercutting wages, rising unemployment, socio-political conflict and many other negative aspects.

Why should Serbia follow along this disastrous and irepairable road that the US and EU have embarked on?

Down with the technocracts!

Peter that is nonsense the thing that attracted forengers to European climes is the free market system which allows that wages and jobs are much more highly paid and available in Europe than in their own countries.

If those people were able to get jobs in their own socieities they would have never left. Problem is we monopolise all the resources and then complain when they come to us.

Redistribute to them / pay them fairly and they will stay at home.

Redistribute to them / pay them fairly and they will stay at home.
(bganon, 24 November 2010 18:49)

Typical socialist mumbo jumbo...

How about they work harder and get off the couch ?
No redistribution,fair chances for everyone,free schools and decent and efficiently run private healthcare and minimal taxes on the working people,that is what distributes wealth.
Typical Serbian mentality,I want a piece of the cake but I don`t want to do anything to get it...

CG the only reason Montenegro isn't at the same level of development of Kosovo is having a coast.

Lets be honest the large majority of money made by Montenegro is made through tourism. And as a frequent visitor I'm familiar with the method of thousands of Montenegrins of income - rent out seaside appartments during the summer at the highest possible price and try to make that money last until next year.

I don't blame people for doing that, there are just not the jobs. That is one of the reasons so many Montenegrins end up in Belgrade.

Yes it is perfectly visible how much Montenegro is removed from its communist past by the sheer number of politicians who were former Communists! At least in other former Jugoslav republics we have moved on a couple of generations. The Montenegrins have the same mentality as they ever have which is why former Milosevic henchman Djukanovic is the longest serving elected dictator in Europe.

Good God, get a grip you seem to suggest that the problems in Serbia are not bourne through lack of investment, through corruption, through poor infrastructure, through a lack of jobs. Oh no, your great theory is that Serbian behaviour is responsible - perhaps you could teach economists a new theoretical approach based upon scientific principles!

FYI Serbia is not the poorest state in Europe.

But like I said, wish you success in joining your masters!

Zoran come on, are you really suggesting that unlike Serbia's politicians or traffic cops that Serbian businessmen are a special breed who do nothing wrong? Even if somebody had no contact with the business world in Serbia they would only have to be able to think logically to understand the way businessmen in Serbia behave.

Aside from that politicians are bribed or blackmailed, we are not talking about mere donations to political parties. At best they are told that funding will be cut off if they don't follow instructions. In fact its pretty easy to see who funds who and when by the success a certain businessman had in a certain period. The media too is bribed or threatened to run positive or negative stories on a business rival or rival political party. Newspapers like Kurir are regularly used in this way. Again one can chart which businessman was paying which newspaper in a given period by the favourable / unfavourable coverage in a certain time frame.

Prove the conditions that reduce the need for what? Greed? Greed feeds on itself Zoran. Once you have your first 100,000 Euros the next target is 500,000 then you want to be a millionaire. Then you want to compete with the big players. If an entire system is based on greed and the profit motive this is what you get.

I am not suggesting that poor conditions should be made for business in Serbia. I am saying that business should pay its due in taxes, particularly those businessmen that built their capital in a dubious way. That can be proven by the way, but it suits the political parties to cover up the evidence from the public so that they can get on the payroll. And of course businessmen will hundreds of thousands to 'creatively account' but that is no reason to give up on taxation or on a conserted effort to cut off tax havens.

I'm also a little confused by your position as I remember distinctly you saying how little Serbs would be paid in the European Union. Surely by your market principles you should not object to this? Perhaps they will be exploited but as you say this is part of human nature, so why would you object?

I don't know what your definition of bad business is but it seems to me that Murdoch is going from strength to strength. And so do men like George Soros, I suppose you have no objection to him using his money to invest in the media in Serbia? Is it illegal to do so?

Funny how quick positions can change isn't it?

Yes, but the rich never pay up anywhere in the world and they won't in Serbia either.
Time to redesign a tax system.
Nobody can escape the GST (Goods and Services Tax) we have here in Australia.
You just put 10% or whatever the government chooses to implement on most things and all will pay, including the tourists.
Everyone consumes so everyone pays.
There are other taxes and levies but this is a sure thing. Even the rich have to pay the GST.
Obviously nothing is as simple as what I just said but a system which nets everyone is not a bad thing. Naturally, not everything will have the GST imposed but most will.

I actually like the system here. Everyone pays a percentage of what they earn for Medicare and that goes directly to our health system. Everyone shares the burden. Hopefully Serbia will never adopt the American system.
(Peggy, 23 November 2010 13:23)

The coonsumption tax (GST, VAT etc) are the worse forms of taxes invented. They tax without discrimination. A nation must have a very strong and wide middle class to successfully use these flat rate taxes.

Let me explain. The flat 10% or 20% GTS or VAT is applied on the rich and the poor. What these flat taxes imply is that the high end $ amount (let's say the 100,000th dollar) which is spent or used for luxury goods, is taxed at the same manner as let's say 10,000th dollar which is spent to provide for basic needs, food, healthcare, education etc. These taxes discriminate against the lower income individuals more than anything else.

Thus any flat tax is stupid and immoral. Taxation is based on merit. And merit equals money earned (wealth).

The best and fair taxation is found in progressive tax system, but it's also very complex. However, I think that Balkan countries should apply a combination of progressive tax system (2-3 brackets), low flat tax, and above all property tax.

From my trips in the region, I have noticed that luxury there is taxed very little. For example if you want to drive a 5 meter 3 ton deisel mercedez, or BMW or a Land Rover etc in the narrow streets of the Balkans, where cops make $400-$700/month one should pay a registration fee that is equal to the level of that luxury display.

CG you are right I must admit sometimes 'typical' montenegrins are accused of doing nothing but sitting on their behinds given the chance. Not all stereotypes are true of course but the montenegrin attitude to work was famous throughout the former Jugoslavija. Thanks for pointing that out.
But no I'm not Montenegrin.

I'd say that you personally have a typically anglo saxon slave mentality, praying that you can join your masters - the rich at some point in the fantastic future.

Good luck with that!

bganon, I can't see you fighting a winning battle even if your intentions are good. Taxes were introduced to take money from the rich and help the poor but look how it turned out.

There will always be loopholes and tax havens and corruption because greed is part of human nature. It's an endless battle and what makes you think these business men are doing anything illegal? Is providing funds to political parties illegal?

Why not create conditions that will reduce the need for it? Create conditions for businesses to invest in Serbia and not to scare them away. If you can attract good business then eventually bad business will disappear.

Denis, Peggy, GST, VAT and PDV are taxes on goods and services. It's the tax you pay on purchases and services. There is also income tax and that has different tax brackets (levels). The first bracket is tax free, meaning if you earn up to say £7000 or AU$14,000 you pay no tax, then it increases the more you earn until you get over say £50,000 or AU$100,000 where it stays at 40%. Serbia does not have a tax free bracket and even at the lowest level it start at about 70%. Now that's how it works for an employee. However, you then have others who work through companies and there are methods to pay less tax by paying dividends instead of a salary. With this method someone earning £40,000 will end up paying about 20% tax with the remainder going into corporation tax, also around 20%. The the wealthy start off-shore companies where they pay 0% tax. At that level, tax laws are not always clear and the reason so many get away with it, such as Paul Hogen and others. It's also difficult to trace the money trail, especially with Swiss bank account where someone can hold an account anonymously.

Wow... it's amazing how the quality of debate improves when money is involved :).

I'm no economist either, but my take on taxes would be...

1. Abolish all taxes that make it more expensive to hire workers (payroll, retirement, etc.)

2. Flat consumption tax on everyone (with a few exemptions to protect the very poor)

3. Flat corporate tax (small)

4. Real estate taxes on properties above a certain value (rich folks like to live large, might as well tax them on it).

4. Divident/Capital gains taxes for earnings above a certain level (since many rich folk derive their incomes from investments in securities/bonds and high risk/casino type investments)

bganon

I work at an import-export company and,yes,I believe that I can get one day rich.
You have prooven me right with your answer,you want to share the marbles of other peoples work but you won`t contribute and work to achieve these marbles by yourself!
This is the typical parasitical behaviuor which unfortunately is responsible for Serbia being the poorest state in Europe despite the grains of Vojvodina which could feed whole Europe ,the huge mineral wealth , a great geographical position and educated people...
And everyone that says be responsible and do not beg and work is a "slave" according to you...

BTW Just for your info,Montenegro has completely severed from this socialistic mentality and they are ahead in everything,from wages,GDP,life quality,low inflation etc. even tough they live on rocks...
That tells you something about how gifted the Tadic government is...

Denis, I did not say that everything should be taxed a flat 10% or whatever the government decides on.
Actually, food is exempt from GST at the supermarket but you are taxed on a meal in a restaurant or a fast food joint.
Packaged food is taxed but fresh food is not and that is only one example of where the blanket tax is not applied.

GST system is complex as well for that reason but that was only one way to do things. It was only food for thought and the system can be altered to suit different countries.

I am not an economist and don't pretend to be. I was only providing one more system to think about.
Obviously corruption must end and tax laws enforced properly. I am guessing that that's where the country is losing a lot in revenue.
We just had a case of our tax office chasing Paul Hogan for $100M in unpaid taxes but had to drop the charges cue to lack of evidence. You see, it happens everywhere. What you do about it is what is important. The rich just get away with it.

Liberty is foreign to this region, everyone wants it but none have trully lived it. If you want to boost spending and investment you need to cut taxes and cut regulations of small-medium businesses which account for the bulk of companies in most balkan countries. VAT should be reduced to 10%, this will make it easier for legitimate businesses to grow. Personal income tax should be scrapped and so should the minimum wage, these two elements are detrimental to the workforce. State pensions are essentially ponzi schemes anyways and should be abolished for those 55 and under. This will promote immigration of young people, it may even incite members of the Diaspora to return or their children and build a future as I belive Serbia is experiencing a demographic crisis as are many other European nations.

From my trips in the region, I have noticed that luxury there is taxed very little. For example if you want to drive a 5 meter 3 ton deisel mercedez, or BMW or a Land Rover etc in the narrow streets of the Balkans, where cops make $400-$700/month one should pay a registration fee that is equal to the level of that luxury display.
(Denis, 23 November 2010 19:43)

God save us from being subjects of an idiotic government to decide, what car is luxury and what is not. What you write is precisely implemented in Hungary - resulting in a scandalous and many times criticized (by EU) registration tax.

What happens - of course the mafia laughs, long story why - but they go around. Car dealers, normal people and car rental companies are extremely unhappy, mafiosi are extremely happy.

Problem is twofold: ill intent from the government (as usual) and lack of professionalism regarding cars. The way they determine, what is "luxury" is unprofessional, pathetic and corrupt. It does serve only one purpose: how to rip people off.

Look at this - even expats and emmigrees are ripped off.

http://www.expatshungary.com/ask/topic/38

EU is calling the country to change the law - do you think, they did?

http://tinyurl.com/24lusb3

http://tinyurl.com/26syn7x

The "neo-libsi" ex-komcsi thieves think, they can do anything.

Zoran come on, are you really suggesting that unlike Serbia's politicians or traffic cops that Serbian businessmen are a special breed who do nothing wrong?
(bganon, 23 November 2010 22:41)
--
You misread. How do you know they are doing something illegal? I expect they are corrupt but what evidence do you have? Funding political parties is not illegal. Creative accounting is not necessarily illegal. These business people pay accountants, lawyers and other people to give them an edge, which may seem unfair but not necessarily illegal. That's my point. You may go after some of them but your are only removing competition for other mafia types.

My position is simple, to create conditions and incentives to attract good business and to overhaul the tax system. Like I said, if I employed someone at minimum wage (70 din per hour I think), I would need to pay at leat another 70% in various taxes to the government. That is daylight robbery.

So there are dirty elements everywhere and it seems even more so in Serbia. Politics, business, real estate and media but I see very little being done to address those problems.

(Tadić said that those who had acquired major capital during the 1990s)

yeah those criminals who stole from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo should give the money to the poor instead, instead of being charged of war crimes and their wealth being confiscated to pay back for all the damage that they have caused in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Yes, but the rich never pay up anywhere in the world and they won't in Serbia either.
Time to redesign a tax system.
Nobody can escape the GST (Goods and Services Tax) we have here in Australia.
You just put 10% or whatever the government chooses to implement on most things and all will pay, including the tourists.
Everyone consumes so everyone pays.
There are other taxes and levies but this is a sure thing. Even the rich have to pay the GST.
Obviously nothing is as simple as what I just said but a system which nets everyone is not a bad thing. Naturally, not everything will have the GST imposed but most will.

I actually like the system here. Everyone pays a percentage of what they earn for Medicare and that goes directly to our health system. Everyone shares the burden. Hopefully Serbia will never adopt the American system.
(Peggy, 23 November 2010 13:23)

The coonsumption tax (GST, VAT etc) are the worse forms of taxes invented. They tax without discrimination. A nation must have a very strong and wide middle class to successfully use these flat rate taxes.

Let me explain. The flat 10% or 20% GTS or VAT is applied on the rich and the poor. What these flat taxes imply is that the high end $ amount (let's say the 100,000th dollar) which is spent or used for luxury goods, is taxed at the same manner as let's say 10,000th dollar which is spent to provide for basic needs, food, healthcare, education etc. These taxes discriminate against the lower income individuals more than anything else.

Thus any flat tax is stupid and immoral. Taxation is based on merit. And merit equals money earned (wealth).

The best and fair taxation is found in progressive tax system, but it's also very complex. However, I think that Balkan countries should apply a combination of progressive tax system (2-3 brackets), low flat tax, and above all property tax.

From my trips in the region, I have noticed that luxury there is taxed very little. For example if you want to drive a 5 meter 3 ton deisel mercedez, or BMW or a Land Rover etc in the narrow streets of the Balkans, where cops make $400-$700/month one should pay a registration fee that is equal to the level of that luxury display.

Haven't you all figured out socialism doesn't work? What is needed is an axing of government spending combined with removal of regulations. Mafia is only in power because of all of these stupid laws and taxes everyone is mentioning. Without them there is no black market and no need for anyone to find it. May i suggest reading human action by Ludwig von Mises

Redistribute to them / pay them fairly and they will stay at home.
(bganon, 24 November 2010 18:49)

Typical socialist mumbo jumbo...

How about they work harder and get off the couch ?
No redistribution,fair chances for everyone,free schools and decent and efficiently run private healthcare and minimal taxes on the working people,that is what distributes wealth.
Typical Serbian mentality,I want a piece of the cake but I don`t want to do anything to get it...

Surely we need Karic, Subotic and many others to be investing in Serbia. Never mind if they are crooked and break the law - they provide jobs...?
(bganon, 23 November 2010 13:28)
--
So your essential arguement is - let these people keep paying (bribing) the government and media so they remain in power (and rich) but they just need to help with the state budget a bit more?

You'll probably find that the richest countries in the world have efficient, simply and low rate tax systems. This probably doesn't suit the government because it will introduce more competition and upset certain business people, meaning some government members and media have less money in their personal pockets.

I am not surpised the Chinese are having difficulties building the largest shopping centre in the Balkans in Serbia. Who lined the pockets of this DS led government to keep them out?

Zoran come on, are you really suggesting that unlike Serbia's politicians or traffic cops that Serbian businessmen are a special breed who do nothing wrong? Even if somebody had no contact with the business world in Serbia they would only have to be able to think logically to understand the way businessmen in Serbia behave.

Aside from that politicians are bribed or blackmailed, we are not talking about mere donations to political parties. At best they are told that funding will be cut off if they don't follow instructions. In fact its pretty easy to see who funds who and when by the success a certain businessman had in a certain period. The media too is bribed or threatened to run positive or negative stories on a business rival or rival political party. Newspapers like Kurir are regularly used in this way. Again one can chart which businessman was paying which newspaper in a given period by the favourable / unfavourable coverage in a certain time frame.

Prove the conditions that reduce the need for what? Greed? Greed feeds on itself Zoran. Once you have your first 100,000 Euros the next target is 500,000 then you want to be a millionaire. Then you want to compete with the big players. If an entire system is based on greed and the profit motive this is what you get.

I am not suggesting that poor conditions should be made for business in Serbia. I am saying that business should pay its due in taxes, particularly those businessmen that built their capital in a dubious way. That can be proven by the way, but it suits the political parties to cover up the evidence from the public so that they can get on the payroll. And of course businessmen will hundreds of thousands to 'creatively account' but that is no reason to give up on taxation or on a conserted effort to cut off tax havens.

I'm also a little confused by your position as I remember distinctly you saying how little Serbs would be paid in the European Union. Surely by your market principles you should not object to this? Perhaps they will be exploited but as you say this is part of human nature, so why would you object?

I don't know what your definition of bad business is but it seems to me that Murdoch is going from strength to strength. And so do men like George Soros, I suppose you have no objection to him using his money to invest in the media in Serbia? Is it illegal to do so?

Funny how quick positions can change isn't it?

Liberty is foreign to this region, everyone wants it but none have trully lived it. If you want to boost spending and investment you need to cut taxes and cut regulations of small-medium businesses which account for the bulk of companies in most balkan countries. VAT should be reduced to 10%, this will make it easier for legitimate businesses to grow. Personal income tax should be scrapped and so should the minimum wage, these two elements are detrimental to the workforce. State pensions are essentially ponzi schemes anyways and should be abolished for those 55 and under. This will promote immigration of young people, it may even incite members of the Diaspora to return or their children and build a future as I belive Serbia is experiencing a demographic crisis as are many other European nations.

Ridiculous. This welfare state idea is what attracted hordes of immigrants from outside Europe and endangered its natives by undercutting wages, rising unemployment, socio-political conflict and many other negative aspects.

Why should Serbia follow along this disastrous and irepairable road that the US and EU have embarked on?

Down with the technocracts!

Niall, Serbia is not a rich country. If we didn't tax anyone earning less than €400 per month then 60% of the work force wouldn't be paying tax. I agree that we need a tax free earning bracket, which is an incentive to employ people in need. The government is paying health cover for the unemployed anyway.

I don't agree with just taxing the rich. There are always loopholes to get around things or to be based offshore. The government needs to have an efficient tax and import/export system. It needs to create incentives for investment and business opportunities. If you try to tax people and give them nothing in return, they will take their money and leave. If they can't they'll work in the black market, which is pretty high in Serbia at the moment.

No Zoran my argument is that rich businessmen should be prosecuted just as any other (poorer) individual would be for breaking the law. Some are not more 'equal' than others.

What I'm saying is that excuses are constantly made (usually via neo-liberal trickle down theory) as to why rich (and / or corrupt) businessmen should pay less taxes. The excuses are based around the fact that - they might not invest in the country and employment will be reduced as a result.

Using the same logic if these businessmen are prosecuted they will not invest in the country and employment will be reduced. Why prosecute them then. Does the logic not stand up?

My opinion is that its time that the tax havens abroad you spoke of are closed down in a coordinated international effort. Why aren't they? Could it be because international corporations bribe governments to ensure that legislation never comes to pass? No, they are good guys, they only want to employ the poor and spread the wealth around!!!

But at the end of the day it boils down to this question - are you happy with the gap between rich and poor in society and do you think that reducing taxes will make this increase larger or smaller? Answer that if you can.

In my opinion its not about hard hearted economics, primarily its about what is right, the profit of the rich is a lesser concern to me.

bganon

I work at an import-export company and,yes,I believe that I can get one day rich.
You have prooven me right with your answer,you want to share the marbles of other peoples work but you won`t contribute and work to achieve these marbles by yourself!
This is the typical parasitical behaviuor which unfortunately is responsible for Serbia being the poorest state in Europe despite the grains of Vojvodina which could feed whole Europe ,the huge mineral wealth , a great geographical position and educated people...
And everyone that says be responsible and do not beg and work is a "slave" according to you...

BTW Just for your info,Montenegro has completely severed from this socialistic mentality and they are ahead in everything,from wages,GDP,life quality,low inflation etc. even tough they live on rocks...
That tells you something about how gifted the Tadic government is...

Boris yore making the instant rags to riches cronies of Slobodan Milošević very nervous with that kind of talk. They will do the opposite and leave Serbia with their ill-gotten instant riches. As if you are speaking to some kind of moral people with a shred of a conscious or shame. They screwed the tax payers before out of their blood sweat tears investments in Serbia and they will do it again.

to have the richest people in Serbia carry the burden of the economic crisis and to have a part of their riches included in creating new opportunities for citizens by opening new jobs and for the education and health systems.
--
The title of this article is completely wrong. The rich shouldn't give away anything. The latter part of the article is correct. The government should create incentives for the wealthy (either through tax cuts or other means) to create job opportunities for the citizens.

I would personally participate but I have done my research and the tax system is Serbia is severely flawed. If I wanted to employ someone at minimum wage I would have to pay at least 70% in taxes and other duties. This is day-light robbery.

A good and efficient tax system is what generates opportunities and attracts business. Rather than relying on the wealthy, the sale of state assets and loans, this incompetent and sell-out government needs to be brave and think for a change. They are in control and they are the ones that can make a change, if they stopped thinking about their own pockets for a change.

Zoran,

There should be an equitable tax system in Serbia. The more you earn, the more you pay. Appealing on the altruistic motives of the super rich isn't going to bring in the money. tax them.

How about the following:
1. Set a minimum wage and for people in that wage bracket, they should be kept out of the tax net. Those on less than €400 per month should not pay tax.

2. Impose levy of 2% on all assetts > €250,000

3. Salaries in excess of €50,000 p.a. 60% tax.

4. Leave state pension alone.

Thats a start rather than hit the little guy.

TIME FOR THE RICH TO PAY UP.

bganon, I can't see you fighting a winning battle even if your intentions are good. Taxes were introduced to take money from the rich and help the poor but look how it turned out.

There will always be loopholes and tax havens and corruption because greed is part of human nature. It's an endless battle and what makes you think these business men are doing anything illegal? Is providing funds to political parties illegal?

Why not create conditions that will reduce the need for it? Create conditions for businesses to invest in Serbia and not to scare them away. If you can attract good business then eventually bad business will disappear.

Zoran come on, are you really suggesting that unlike Serbia's politicians or traffic cops that Serbian businessmen are a special breed who do nothing wrong?
(bganon, 23 November 2010 22:41)
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You misread. How do you know they are doing something illegal? I expect they are corrupt but what evidence do you have? Funding political parties is not illegal. Creative accounting is not necessarily illegal. These business people pay accountants, lawyers and other people to give them an edge, which may seem unfair but not necessarily illegal. That's my point. You may go after some of them but your are only removing competition for other mafia types.

My position is simple, to create conditions and incentives to attract good business and to overhaul the tax system. Like I said, if I employed someone at minimum wage (70 din per hour I think), I would need to pay at leat another 70% in various taxes to the government. That is daylight robbery.

So there are dirty elements everywhere and it seems even more so in Serbia. Politics, business, real estate and media but I see very little being done to address those problems.

TIME FOR THE RICH TO PAY UP.
(Niall O'Doherty, 23 November 2010 11:59)
=======================

Yes, but the rich never pay up anywhere in the world and they won't in Serbia either.
Time to redesign a tax system.
Nobody can escape the GST (Goods and Services Tax) we have here in Australia.
You just put 10% or whatever the government chooses to implement on most things and all will pay, including the tourists.
Everyone consumes so everyone pays.
There are other taxes and levies but this is a sure thing. Even the rich have to pay the GST.
Obviously nothing is as simple as what I just said but a system which nets everyone is not a bad thing. Naturally, not everything will have the GST imposed but most will.

I actually like the system here. Everyone pays a percentage of what they earn for Medicare and that goes directly to our health system. Everyone shares the burden. Hopefully Serbia will never adopt the American system.

Well Tadic is a politician and no doubt there are populistic reasons behind his statement, but I support a more even distribution of wealth in society in Serbia and elsewhere.

For that reason I support him and not Beko and company. In fact the last people I support are various 'busnessmen'. People say politicians are just as corrupt as those businessmen, well perhaps. But with one CRUCIAL difference, we can get rid of politicians by voting them out. Businessmen are not accountable in any meaningful sense, particularly in the Balkans. They are able to bribe, blackmail in these parts even more easily than in the west.

It is a well known argument used by defenders of the current system (of inequality) who claim that increasing tax makes business go abroad. Its fair to say that some might take their investment abroad, but its also fair to say that the large majority will not. In the Serbian case the Beko's and Miskovic's of this world are most familiar with the Serbian market - they have people on their payrolls in different sectors including politicians and media. Would they be willing to start from scratch in other countries, greasing the palms of hundreds more people.

In any case if we are so concerned with these businessmen and their going abroad should we also make them exempt from the law. Surely we need Karic, Subotic and many others to be investing in Serbia. Never mind if they are crooked and break the law - they provide jobs...?

Peter that is nonsense the thing that attracted forengers to European climes is the free market system which allows that wages and jobs are much more highly paid and available in Europe than in their own countries.

If those people were able to get jobs in their own socieities they would have never left. Problem is we monopolise all the resources and then complain when they come to us.

Redistribute to them / pay them fairly and they will stay at home.

“If that applies to the United States and European Union, it applies also to Serbia,”B92

Hm., if I understand you'll go to Putin to give you some judo classes, tips and tricks for that..

maybe tadic and milo as well as their friends and cousins should put up or shut up. To say such a thing, well we know how the bucks were arrived at

From my trips in the region, I have noticed that luxury there is taxed very little. For example if you want to drive a 5 meter 3 ton deisel mercedez, or BMW or a Land Rover etc in the narrow streets of the Balkans, where cops make $400-$700/month one should pay a registration fee that is equal to the level of that luxury display.
(Denis, 23 November 2010 19:43)

God save us from being subjects of an idiotic government to decide, what car is luxury and what is not. What you write is precisely implemented in Hungary - resulting in a scandalous and many times criticized (by EU) registration tax.

What happens - of course the mafia laughs, long story why - but they go around. Car dealers, normal people and car rental companies are extremely unhappy, mafiosi are extremely happy.

Problem is twofold: ill intent from the government (as usual) and lack of professionalism regarding cars. The way they determine, what is "luxury" is unprofessional, pathetic and corrupt. It does serve only one purpose: how to rip people off.

Look at this - even expats and emmigrees are ripped off.

http://www.expatshungary.com/ask/topic/38

EU is calling the country to change the law - do you think, they did?

http://tinyurl.com/24lusb3

http://tinyurl.com/26syn7x

The "neo-libsi" ex-komcsi thieves think, they can do anything.

We are hearing the same kind of nonsense from Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. Notice how they never talk about who or what these charities are. Who is about to be receiving these vast sums of cash for doing nothing at all, just standing there with their hands out. It really makes you wonder how these guys made their money. It must have been just laying around or something.

Denis, I did not say that everything should be taxed a flat 10% or whatever the government decides on.
Actually, food is exempt from GST at the supermarket but you are taxed on a meal in a restaurant or a fast food joint.
Packaged food is taxed but fresh food is not and that is only one example of where the blanket tax is not applied.

GST system is complex as well for that reason but that was only one way to do things. It was only food for thought and the system can be altered to suit different countries.

I am not an economist and don't pretend to be. I was only providing one more system to think about.
Obviously corruption must end and tax laws enforced properly. I am guessing that that's where the country is losing a lot in revenue.
We just had a case of our tax office chasing Paul Hogan for $100M in unpaid taxes but had to drop the charges cue to lack of evidence. You see, it happens everywhere. What you do about it is what is important. The rich just get away with it.

Denis, Peggy, GST, VAT and PDV are taxes on goods and services. It's the tax you pay on purchases and services. There is also income tax and that has different tax brackets (levels). The first bracket is tax free, meaning if you earn up to say £7000 or AU$14,000 you pay no tax, then it increases the more you earn until you get over say £50,000 or AU$100,000 where it stays at 40%. Serbia does not have a tax free bracket and even at the lowest level it start at about 70%. Now that's how it works for an employee. However, you then have others who work through companies and there are methods to pay less tax by paying dividends instead of a salary. With this method someone earning £40,000 will end up paying about 20% tax with the remainder going into corporation tax, also around 20%. The the wealthy start off-shore companies where they pay 0% tax. At that level, tax laws are not always clear and the reason so many get away with it, such as Paul Hogen and others. It's also difficult to trace the money trail, especially with Swiss bank account where someone can hold an account anonymously.

(Tadić said that those who had acquired major capital during the 1990s)

yeah those criminals who stole from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo should give the money to the poor instead, instead of being charged of war crimes and their wealth being confiscated to pay back for all the damage that they have caused in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

Peggy, I tend to agree. The Australian tax system is pretty good and it is one of the few western countries that haven't seen a recession in a long time. It is still economically strong.

10% GST is excellent when compared to the UK, which is just about to increase VAT to 20% and Serbia having a PDV of 18%. I think most of the EU is at 17.5%

Income tax in the UK isn't too bad but there is also NI (national insurance) - another tax for health cover - which makes health cover free in the UK.

The problem with Serbia is that too many people work in the black market due to high taxes. We need to reduce taxes and get everyone onboard.

Be careful guys/girls regarding the tax. It's way to easy to say "let the rich pay"... and it does not work. At the end it's the small guy who lands up paying.

#1: Serbia has to attract the capital, not to scare it away
#2: Taxing the "rich" corporations won't do any good for poor - because guess who will pay more. The corporations will just pass the burden to the customer.

But I have to admit, that sounds pretty populistic. I just expected better from Tadic.

Most of the taxes we pay land up feeding the bureaucratic system, so much more depends on that system than we like to see. In human history taxes over 10% were considered straight robbery - now nearly every country has much higher rates. If the country maintains an extensive infrastructure than I can understand. But what if the talk is about to privatize everything - from Telekom till healthcare, railways and airlines... but the taxes are still high? Good ole' State does not want to care about what they SHOULD take care off... but they still ask for money.

OK, fine - either way, Persian way or Libertarian way... but NOT "neo-liberal" way ("we feel free to sell anything of State responsibilities/assets we like for whatever price. In exchange we feel free to ask you to pay as much taxes as we want"). Usually in history the Persian one worked out better than libertarian. Infrastructure was never a profitable business - and telecom, railway, airline, healthcare IS INFRASTRUCTURE. Healthy business does depend on infrastructure, so please - we need it. We need fast, clean comfortable trains, good roads, safe airlines, healthcare, safe cities - all for CHEAP or for FREE and guaranteed by the State. In exchange, we pay taxes. That's the way one of the most successful empires (Sassanid Empire, Persia) did work for hundreds and hundreds of years. In the fact, hotels were for free or nearly for free - in the hope, foreign merchants will come and trade THERE, not somewhere else.

OK, this is about "Persian" versus "Libertarian" way. Now we have two more ways:

- "neo-conservative" ( = "I am conserving the content of my valet to the maximum, screw yours")
- "neo-liberal" ( = "I have my liberties, screw yours. I have liberty to sell of state assets, liabilities and responsibilities to whom I want for whatever price. And you feel free to pay as much taxes as I demand")

These aren't new, in times of Emperor Chosroes "neo-conservatives" and "neo-liberals" did exist, too - but they were called plainly "thieves", now we are more politically correct. ;-)

Wow... it's amazing how the quality of debate improves when money is involved :).

I'm no economist either, but my take on taxes would be...

1. Abolish all taxes that make it more expensive to hire workers (payroll, retirement, etc.)

2. Flat consumption tax on everyone (with a few exemptions to protect the very poor)

3. Flat corporate tax (small)

4. Real estate taxes on properties above a certain value (rich folks like to live large, might as well tax them on it).

4. Divident/Capital gains taxes for earnings above a certain level (since many rich folk derive their incomes from investments in securities/bonds and high risk/casino type investments)

CG you are right I must admit sometimes 'typical' montenegrins are accused of doing nothing but sitting on their behinds given the chance. Not all stereotypes are true of course but the montenegrin attitude to work was famous throughout the former Jugoslavija. Thanks for pointing that out.
But no I'm not Montenegrin.

I'd say that you personally have a typically anglo saxon slave mentality, praying that you can join your masters - the rich at some point in the fantastic future.

Good luck with that!

CG the only reason Montenegro isn't at the same level of development of Kosovo is having a coast.

Lets be honest the large majority of money made by Montenegro is made through tourism. And as a frequent visitor I'm familiar with the method of thousands of Montenegrins of income - rent out seaside appartments during the summer at the highest possible price and try to make that money last until next year.

I don't blame people for doing that, there are just not the jobs. That is one of the reasons so many Montenegrins end up in Belgrade.

Yes it is perfectly visible how much Montenegro is removed from its communist past by the sheer number of politicians who were former Communists! At least in other former Jugoslav republics we have moved on a couple of generations. The Montenegrins have the same mentality as they ever have which is why former Milosevic henchman Djukanovic is the longest serving elected dictator in Europe.

Good God, get a grip you seem to suggest that the problems in Serbia are not bourne through lack of investment, through corruption, through poor infrastructure, through a lack of jobs. Oh no, your great theory is that Serbian behaviour is responsible - perhaps you could teach economists a new theoretical approach based upon scientific principles!

FYI Serbia is not the poorest state in Europe.

But like I said, wish you success in joining your masters!