"Kosovo talks should end in mutual recognition"

'Recognise each other.'Hmmm. I thought Serbia was already internationally recognised, with a proud history and culture, whereas 'Kosova' is some kind of boil in the bag US/UK miscarriage of an idea for a country which two thirds of the world does not recognise.

There is a province of Serbia called Kosovo where Serbian civilisation was born... is that what they are talkng about? I recognise that.

I guess this is the Albanian diplomacy of the playground. 'I wont recognise you, if you don't recognise me. Now where is my American dad. I'm adopted you know. Always have been. Not sure if he is American or Turkish, but he is definately not Serbian. My real dad? I think he was Ilyrian, definately wasn't Serbian. No not Serbian. Never.'

Remember, more than autonomy less than independence is self-fulfilling. Anything else is just wishful thinking.
(Zoran, 17 November 2010 14:00)

Here we go agin with that stupid line. To this day, no Serb politician has been able to explain what is the meaning of more than autnomy/less than independence.

Just remember how Serbia let albanians enter our country from impoverished Albania only to stabb us in the back, claim our territory and kill our people.
(MikeC, 17 November 2010 17:39)

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.

"During the consultations so far, the Kosovo side agreed that talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status," continues the article.”


Wait a minute, “Status“! What status? I thought Kosovo was already independent.. What happened with technical talks ONLY?

@ Kosovo-USA, 'More than autonomy, less than independence' = RES1244 which means VJ & MUP in KiM & the border with Albania within a federal framework allowing Albanians to have enough economic independence that they can't blame Belgrade for their own ineptitude & corruption

When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are...when you wish upon a star...your dreams won't come true.

"Kosovo talks should end in mutual recognition"

-- "Should" is the operative word. What Kosovo talks probably "will" end up producing is mutual cantonization.

"From its standpoint the dialogue is a process whose ultimate end should be the mutual recognition of Kosovo and Serbia, and their accession in the EU," writes the newspaper.
=====================

There is one big flaw in this. Serbia does not need Kosovo's recognition, unlike Kosovo which needs Serbia's recognition.

I have mentioned it many many times before that status cannot be avoided during these negotiations. If Pristina needs to sell this to ethnic Albanians by mentioned the impossible dream of "recognition" then so be it. However, "Kosova" will never gain international legitimacy. It can have some kind of special status within the EU only (assuming the EU still exists at that time) but it will never be a fully recognised legitimate state.

Remember, more than autonomy less than independence is self-fulfilling. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Oh yeah, Belgrade will recognize KiM ONLY AFTER the failure of the temp. inst to get int. recognition. But hey, this is propaganda meant for Albanians to keep Albin Kurti's support low since the temp. inst must explain away their capitulation somehow

Koha is peeing in the wind. The problem for the Albanians is that Serbia does recognize their little UDI, in any stage. The so-called technical problems would be solved overnight, once the status issue is resolved. All this coming from some Albanian paper.

I urge every Serb to realize that there can never be peace with albanians. Over the last couple of years albanians have killed, threatened, terrorized and destroyed the lives of Serbs in Kosovo and their property. Just remember how Serbia let albanians enter our country from impoverished Albania only to stabb us in the back, claim our territory and kill our people.

The problem is the last call is in the hands of serbia. There is first off all many issues to be straightened out, before recognition. Until now it seams to me that the albanians want everything for free.

it is so pathetic. thousands of war criminals walking free and easy on the streets of blgd. "you never know whose bloody hand you are shaking..." commented svetlana broz, and she, unfortunately, hit it right on the mark.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 18 November 2010 05:23)

He really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this. "Thousands of war criminals" are walking the streets of Belgrade, are they? This is a racist lie and and he knows it.

veton surroi is this club and nobody else,so this story is of no importance!loss of time to comment his proposals

Serbs have a cultural enheritance but Albanians - ILLYRIANS! - have it also and even bigger than the rest of the balkans.

The only invaders in the balkans are the slavic people.

Most of the Serbs comments i read hear or from persons who do know little or nothing.
They have never been in Kosova but only go after the so-called facts of their political/nationalistics leaders.

kosova, I love you.

@ Kosovo-USA, 'More than autonomy, less than independence' = RES1244 which means VJ & MUP in KiM & the border with Albania within a federal framework allowing Albanians to have enough economic independence that they can't blame Belgrade for their own ineptitude & corruption
(highduke, 17 November 2010 15:52)

Good question by Kosova-USA, and the answer was nothing but illusion from hajduke.
First of all there is no such thing as "VJ", second the scenario described could happened in Serb movies, but not in real life.

HAHAHA, albo fantasy discoland. Drill these facts into you meager brains a) Serbia will not recognize you; b) You won't get into the UN, the eu, the Olympics and FIFA; and c) the us can no longer afford to protect you. Buh Bye.

"……. talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status…...”

Told you so! Status is on the table. When will you learn that my sources are on the ball and don’t tell me stories. Oh by the way, the last line in the article “At the end of the process they will recognize each other and become EU member states," is crap because survey after survey has shown that Serbs don’t care about joining the EU, but it’s only to provide some cover for the Albos as negotiations were never on the table, but are now forced because the EU has run out of cash and has to finalize this matter.
To be honest, negotiations never took place before because they would not favor the Albanians. It’s only the WFC that has changed the situation.

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.
(Mark, 17 November 2010 18:59)

There have always been Albanians in Kosovo and that cannot be denied, but not in the numbers we have today. Your women would have to be rabbits to reproduce in those numbers even if they had 20 children each.
The big move of Albanians to Kosovo occurred from 1945 onwards where large numbers escaped/left Albania and Tito welcomed them with open arms giving them free accommodation, free electricity, cloths, shoes etc. It was Tito playing politics with Albania and the world. Tito also saw Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia as danger to that entity so he wanted that to be “watered down” by letting Albanians into Kosovo.
Read it in history books – it’s all there.

Well the important thing is that nothing will change and Kosovo will never be ruled by Belgrade. So Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo to be an EU-member and must do so because it will never rule over Kosovo again.

There can be compromises on different technical things but Kosovo will stay being an independent state recognized by majority of Eu member states. Both Kosovo and Serbia needs ''good neighbourly relations'' with each other and that means recognizing each other.

The result of this so called dialoug will end with Serbian recognition of an independent and multi-ethnic Kosovo. As it is right now, functional and mature to hold a dialoug.

Nobody should belive that Kosovo will have to give up it's independence to be an EU member state. Albanians are not so eager to lose their independence to get EU membership. Boris Tadic knowes that Serbia will never again rule over Kosovo without using force so they will have to recognize Kosovo for Eu membership.

At the beginning of negotiations, Kosovo is already somewhere between "more than autonomy, less than independence" and fully recognized independence.

Serbia is starting with some of its citizens living in a (former?) "province" that it has had absolutely no control over for the past 11 years.

For Kosovo to gain anything from negotiations, it must move further towards fully recognized independence and further away from "more than autonomy, less than independence."

MTALTI (shortened to this to save B92 posters a lot of typing) cannot be Serbia's best offer, since Kosovo already has much more than that. If it is Serbia's final offer, then Kosovo is perfectly happy to never talk with Serbia and let things remain as they currently are, since every day the situation in Kosovo (at least south of the Ibar river) gets better than they day before.

Also your math is foulty. Statistically during the last 70 yrs there has been a growth rate of 4.2 children per woman in Kosovo, more than enough to reach the numbers we have today. But in any case this is not a super-high number. In US this rate used to be 4.9 especially for the 3 decades after WWII.

The K-Alb population since early 1900 has grown by roughly 300%, from 560K to some 1.8 mil. The population of Albanians in Albania where there was no immigration has also grown by 300%, from 1.2mil in 1912 to some 4 mil today.

So your theory is nothing else but pipe dream that they feed you in Serbia, to make you feel good.
(Denis, 18 November 2010 05:26)

Firstly, I don’t live in Serbia, but on the other side of the world. Secondly, my father was in the Yugoslav army from 1945 to 1952 and he spent it all in Macedonia and Kosovo as a border guard. In fact my father, age 82, still carries a bullet in his back from an Albanian border guard which he got on the Macedonian/Albanian section.
During the 9 years as a border guard thousands, not tens or hundreds, but thousands crossed over to Yugoslavia - yes it was dangerous because the Albanian border guards shot their own people, but thousands did escape to Yugo. Tito playing the big man gave them free accommodation, free electricity, free clothing etc. There is also logic in “allowing” people to escape paradise, as Albanian communists would call their home, because it releases the pressure on the rest of the population. The communists in Albania would never admit this fact, but Castro did the same only 15 years ago when he opened all his prisons and told them to go to America.
You have to read up on your history as Tito did not allow free migration until the mid to late 1960s – that’s when many Yugoslavs went to Germany as guest workers and elsewhere. So you see this so called “leaving for America” only happened a lot, lot later. By the late 1960s, the Albanians were in Kosovo in large numbers and the rest is history.

This is from B92 almost three years ago. The Hague testimony of Yves Tomic a Balkan expert from the University of Sorbonne in Paris:
The witness added that, according to official Yugoslav data, during the Kosovo war, only 3000 Albanians born in Albania and another 500 Albanian civilians born in Kosovo, and temporarily residing in Albania, had moved.

According to the same source, from 1941 to 1948, 15,000 Albanians from Albania had moved to Kosovo, he said.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=01&dd=30&nav_id=47356

MTALTI (shortened to this to save B92 posters a lot of typing) cannot be Serbia's best offer, since Kosovo already has much more than that. If it is Serbia's final offer, then Kosovo is perfectly happy to never talk with Serbia and let things remain as they currently are, since every day the situation in Kosovo (at least south of the Ibar river) gets better than they day before.
(Glenn, 17 November 2010 22:07)

Refresh my memory but what do “Kosovars” produce apart mouths to feed? If there was a competition for the greatest social security collects then you would win hands down. So what’s getting better and better every day south of the Ibar? Albanians living abroad and spouting BS?

“……..Albanians are not so eager to lose their independence to get EU …..” Boris Tadic knowes that Serbia will never again rule over Kosovo without using force so they will have to recognize Kosovo for Eu membership”
(Demi, 17 November 2010 22:02)

Who is going to ask the Albanians? When you live from hand to mouth because others give you money so you can eat then who is going to ask for your opinion? If you don’t like it then starve.
Oh the EU is dying; don’t you people keep abreast of the news?

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.
(Mark, 17 November 2010 18:59)

You prove that Albanians have been in Kosovo for thousands of years. There are bridges and roads built by the Turks in that region, there are Churches, monasteries built by Serbs, where are those ancient ruins that the Albanian Illyrians left for posterity??????
Me thinks we have to go to Mars for those.

There have always been Albanians in Kosovo and that cannot be denied, but not in the numbers we have today. Your women would have to be rabbits to reproduce in those numbers even if they had 20 children each.
The big move of Albanians to Kosovo occurred from 1945 onwards where large numbers escaped/left Albania and Tito welcomed them with open arms giving them free accommodation, free electricity, cloths, shoes etc. It was Tito playing politics with Albania and the world. Tito also saw Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia as danger to that entity so he wanted that to be “watered down” by letting Albanians into Kosovo.
Read it in history books – it’s all there.
(sj, 17 November 2010 21:16)

Which book? Your assumption without a doubt has no substance. The border between Albania and Yugoslavia after 1945 was sealed by communist regime in Albania, and if anyone tried to pass it was executed on the spot, and their families inprisoned. Roughly a condition for a mass migration.

Everyone who has the slightest knowledge of what went on in Albania those years knows this very well. Further, even those who dared te pass the border and did so successfully did not stay in Serbia but moved on to immigrate in the West mainly US.

In fact the opposite is true. From prior 1945 you will find today large concentration of K-Alb in Albania, especially in cities of Durres and Fier.

Also your math is foulty. Statistically during the last 70 yrs there has been a growth rate of 4.2 children per woman in Kosovo, more than enough to reach the numbers we have today. But in any case this is not a super-high number. In US this rate used to be 4.9 especially for the 3 decades after WWII.

The K-Alb population since early 1900 has grown by roughly 300%, from 560K to some 1.8 mil. The population of Albanians in Albania where there was no immigration has also grown by 300%, from 1.2mil in 1912 to some 4 mil today.

So your theory is nothing else but pipe dream that they feed you in Serbia, to make you feel good.

By the late 1960s, the Albanians were in Kosovo in large numbers and the rest is history.
(sj, 18 November 2010 10:43)

Your argument's strength is ambiguity. What do you mean "thousands"??

Albania itself was 1.2 mil in 1944. If 10,000 Alb left and stayed in Kosovo they would today count for max 30K kosovars, if 50K left during that time and stayed in Kosovo they would count for max 150K of the population of Kosovo today, still a drop in the ocean.

There is no records anywhere, in Albania or any international source that talks about a mass migration of Albanians into Yugoslavia, especially when u talk about thousands. All we have is the story of your 82 yr old father, who thinks that Albanians shot him in the back, that's why they don't deserve Kosovo...

The history is not made by conclusions such as yours "it makes sense for Hoxha to open the borders... just like Castro" Hoxha never opened the borders. Your logic is self-denying. You admit that Albanian border gurads would shot and kill those who tried to escape, yet thousands escaped? So the more they killed the more they tried to escape through that danger.


The natural growth of the population has tripled the Albanian population in Kosovo just like it did in Albania. It doesn't take a rocket scientiest to see that. It's really easy math. But you always try find some subjective reason to blame on someone else (Tito) so you can as always depict yourselves as innocent victims.

You prove that Albanians have been in Kosovo for thousands of years. There are bridges and roads built by the Turks in that region, there are Churches, monasteries built by Serbs, where are those ancient ruins that the Albanian Illyrians left for posterity??????
Me thinks we have to go to Mars for those.
(sj, 18 November 2010 04:29)

You Serbs are the last people in the world that i need to prove anything about my people.You are invaders in the Balkans.Not only Kosovo but the whole Serbia is land that you stole when you invaded.When you go to Mars don't forget to claim it as Serbian land and the craddle of the Serbian civilization. You are used to that method.

You Serbs are the last people in the world that i need to prove anything about my people.You are invaders in the Balkans.Not only Kosovo but the whole Serbia is land that you stole when you invaded.When you go to Mars don't forget to claim it as Serbian land and the craddle of the Serbian civilization. You are used to that method.
(Mark, 18 November 2010 18:02)

Yep, it’s a lot easier to open your mouth and let the flies in. Just tell me where they are; I ask for nothing else. Give me a few sites, even the Sea of Tranquility would do.

(Denis, 18 November 2010 15:50)
As you’re such a historian, did you know that 5 000 Greek communists also escaped over the borders of Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. There was a miss communication and the Yugo border guards were not told of the Greeks coming over – it was only after one of them managed to cross over and alter the Yugo army that the shooting stopped. How many were killed no one really knows even to this day, estimates vary from 500 to 1000.
Oh, this is not in any of your US books either. It shows how there are many incidents that never make it to official records, and if you’re looking at history books in the US, well knowing how introverted those windbags are, why would that surprise anyone. Ronald Regan thought that Australia was located in Europe.
You want the history books to note my father’s incident. He was shot by an Albanian border guard because the fire came from across the border.
This Albanian migration occurred over a period of three decades or more. In fact, your Albos were crossing over in the 1970s and at that time some did not settle in Kosovo and left for the US or elsewhere. As far as your population is concerned well I don’t have an Albanian calculator to come up with the same “math”.
“The history is not made by conclusions such as yours "it makes sense for Hoxha to open the borders” Perhaps I should have said it may be one explanation – I don’t know, but you seem to have been part of his inner circle and I’ll leave it at that.

(johny, 18 November 2010 18:11)

--"During the consultations so far, the Kosovo side agreed that talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status," continues the article.--

So, i don't see one word here about the missing; is it somehow implied? there are at least over 1000 still missing ethnic albanians and some 500 non-albanians, mostly serbs. i am quite confident that both sides know more then they're letting on (to say the least.) at least fr the blgd regime, there is an unwritten order NOT to exhume any more gravesites w/ ethnic alb bodies (Perucac being a single exception because of intl pressure and the exhuming on the bosnian side, related to climate change, as i've written about here on numerous occasions.)

it is all (sleazy) politics as one eulex official recently admitted to us. duh.

so for me, that is one of the first priorities and a non-negotiable.

one problem is that many of the alb bodies can never be found, and by that i mean body parts, co-mingled body parts. why? because they were burned, at extremely high temperatures, at various industrialized furnaces. at trepca, and at mackatica, in 1999. perhaps other sites as well. there is a great deal of evidence, this isn't merely "speculation" or allegation. i've written about this here a # of times here, and no one ever comments. somehow it seems like the most horrifying things are just greeted w/ a ho-hum by all sides. is it more horrendous than one can imagine? yeah, that's the balkans... unimaginable war crimes as a lifestyle?

something is really wrong with this picture.

anyway, if these are the "tech" issues, then let the talks begin, because i've lost patience a long time ago.

the other aspect, of course, is the prosecution of war crimes and war criminals. except for what the hague has accomplished (not referring to what's his name brammertz), only very! isolated war crimes have been adjudicated in blgd. and they've been done quite badly, and only because of natasa kandic and her colleagues. it is so pathetic. thousands of war criminals walking free and easy on the streets of blgd. "you never know whose bloody hand you are shaking..." commented svetlana broz, and she, unfortunately, hit it right on the mark.

so folks, let's get moving, and put some pressure on the politicians to talk about substance -- and it won't be easy. it shouldn't be.

ciao!

roberto
frisco

I think that the maximum Serbia will ever be able to achieve by its effective diplomacy, it will be the failure of the Ahtisari plan, and that would mean, partition of Kosovo, which also would bring the further isolation of Serbian religious sites and also the very extended rights of the Serbs in kosovo, which you must admitt that no other minority of that percentage has in the Balkans. Yes, you would get northern Kosovo, but the life of Serbs in the south would become very hard, and if no Serbs in there, no Serbian heritage sites neither. I kinda like this idea, i think a multiethnic state in Kosovo is an experiment which will fail. If serbs and albanians, which have to accept that they are neighbour nations,want to make peace as neighbours, they have to agree where is the fence of the serb house and the albanian house. we hate each other too much so other solutions are inmpossible. This is my opinion, Thanks

There is one big flaw in this. Serbia does not need Kosovo's recognition, unlike Kosovo which needs Serbia's recognition.
(Peggy, 17 November 2010 22:54)

Its quite the opposite Peggy. See we can make lives very difficult for those in Serbia and we don't need to even touch one pistol. Its easy. All we can do is stall. We know EU integration is probably 2 decades away for us; and that's being optimistic. We also know that Serbia is in desperate need of EU money and EU investments. All we can do is stall and hence create a sense of insecurity in Serbia where investing will be harder due to a conflict going on. Also due to this conflict Serbia will lose billions over they year in EU aid, since it won't be a member; and that means more protests over pensions and teacher's pay; more social unrest; more religious and extreme nuts getting into power in Serbia. You see this total neglect of what we could possibly bring to Serbia is what brought you those bombs in 1999. Yet you never seem to learn. We can indeed do some serious harm. This is not a one way thing you like and imagine to be. Sure Serbia can cause harm; but so can we. The last decade should have been a lesson. It simple look at where Slovenia is because of no open conflicts and look at where you are. You're gonna be stuck here for a while until you work against our interests. The only way for you to actually move forward not have any headaches is when you realize that the existence of two states means no conflicts. Let me put it this way. Even if by some magical mean Kosova was to be integrated totally within Serbia conflict will exists because things will be stirred up because the will of the people is to cut Serbia away. Serbia would still be in a perpetual state of conflict. It has indeed been that way since the Berlin conference just took a chunk of land that didn't belong to Serbia and gave it to you.

Read it in history books – it’s all there.
sj

Are the 'history books' you're referring to written by authors whose names end in 'vic' or 'elj'?

Your argument's strength is ambiguity. What do you mean "thousands"??

(Denis, 18 November 2010 15:50)

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

http://opinionleaders.htmlplanet.com/prealbrule.html

http://desip.igc.org/StressInKosovo.html

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....
(Denis, 19 November 2010 17:09)

This tells it all. I convey first hand information but that’s no good documentation is required.
Dan provides documentation but that’s also no good because both do not substantiate Albanian BS.

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....
(Denis, 19 November 2010 17:09)

By: Dr. Stephen K. Stoan, Ph.D. History, Duke University, 1970
Director of Library and Information Services, Drury College
Springfield MO 65802



The University is organized into two undergraduate, ten graduate and professional schools, and seven institutes. In its 2011 edition, U.S. News & World Report ranked the university's undergraduate program 9th among national universities, while ranking the medical, law, public affairs, nursing and business graduate programs as high as 6th and as low as 15th, all among the top 15 in the United States. Duke University is also ranked 14th in the 2010 QS World University Rankings.

Yet your the only one laughing, it must be a lonely world. Now some sources from you apart from your mouth?????

What does it mean when one says "mutual-recognition"?

Kosovo will recognize half of Belgrade as the authority, and Serbia must recognize half of Pristina as the other authority ?

The beaurocrats in Washington must be soiling themsevles right about now, what a joke.

I convey first hand information but that’s no good documentation is required.
Dan provides documentation but that’s also no good because both do not substantiate Albanian BS.
(sj, 20 November 2010 01:19)

That's not called documentation... That’s more close to garbage. Even Wikipedia has a higher research standard than the two articles mentioned in those links. Just because somebody is a PhD, does not mean he/she is correct.

Dan brought the opinion of somebody who says "Perhaps 400,000 illegal Albanian immigrants arrived from Albanian in the years after WWII". Note... "perhaps" !!!!. After such a sentence a serious scholar would put the source where he found that data for others to verify (that's something required even by Wikipedia, let alone by a research article), unless he personally observed those 400,000 moving from Albania to Kosovo. However, it’s understandable why he does not provide a source; because such a source does not exist.

Instead of going to the interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation, let’s go to the primary source of the data. Albania’s population was 1.12 million (1945 census), 1.22 million (1950 census), 1.39 million (1955 census) and 1.63 million (1960 census). The number of Albanians in Serbia (including Kosovo) was 420 thousand (1921 census), 532 thousand (1948 census), 566 thousand (1953 census) and 700 thousand (1961 census). Census data shows the “400,000” mentioned by Mr. K.H. von Kaufmann is totally ridiculous. These “400,000” could not come from Albania, and wherever they came from, they did not go to Kosovo. So not sure what Mr. von Kaufmann is speaking about (probably a country different from Kosovo), unless he reveals us the “sources” as a real researcher would do.

The other author Dr. Stephen K. Stoan, Ph.D. History, says somewhere in the article that Tito “signed a deal with the new Communist dictator of Albania to bring in another 100,000 Albanian settlers”. He, at least, is more reasonable (being a PhD) and cuts the number to 100,000, which is statistically more reasonable, even though highly improbably if we consider the census data. But, again no reference about the archive where he saw such agreement, as a real historian would do. Also, read his entire article and you could hardly find a citation on documentary sources for the many “facts” he mentions there.

So how can you expect that we take those examples seriously ?! Just because they were written by a PhD or by somebody called “von Kaufmann” who did not bother to provide the sources for the “facts” mentioned.

'Recognise each other.'Hmmm. I thought Serbia was already internationally recognised, with a proud history and culture, whereas 'Kosova' is some kind of boil in the bag US/UK miscarriage of an idea for a country which two thirds of the world does not recognise.

There is a province of Serbia called Kosovo where Serbian civilisation was born... is that what they are talkng about? I recognise that.

I guess this is the Albanian diplomacy of the playground. 'I wont recognise you, if you don't recognise me. Now where is my American dad. I'm adopted you know. Always have been. Not sure if he is American or Turkish, but he is definately not Serbian. My real dad? I think he was Ilyrian, definately wasn't Serbian. No not Serbian. Never.'

I urge every Serb to realize that there can never be peace with albanians. Over the last couple of years albanians have killed, threatened, terrorized and destroyed the lives of Serbs in Kosovo and their property. Just remember how Serbia let albanians enter our country from impoverished Albania only to stabb us in the back, claim our territory and kill our people.

"During the consultations so far, the Kosovo side agreed that talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status," continues the article.”


Wait a minute, “Status“! What status? I thought Kosovo was already independent.. What happened with technical talks ONLY?

When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are...when you wish upon a star...your dreams won't come true.

@ Kosovo-USA, 'More than autonomy, less than independence' = RES1244 which means VJ & MUP in KiM & the border with Albania within a federal framework allowing Albanians to have enough economic independence that they can't blame Belgrade for their own ineptitude & corruption

Remember, more than autonomy less than independence is self-fulfilling. Anything else is just wishful thinking.
(Zoran, 17 November 2010 14:00)

Here we go agin with that stupid line. To this day, no Serb politician has been able to explain what is the meaning of more than autnomy/less than independence.

Oh yeah, Belgrade will recognize KiM ONLY AFTER the failure of the temp. inst to get int. recognition. But hey, this is propaganda meant for Albanians to keep Albin Kurti's support low since the temp. inst must explain away their capitulation somehow

I have mentioned it many many times before that status cannot be avoided during these negotiations. If Pristina needs to sell this to ethnic Albanians by mentioned the impossible dream of "recognition" then so be it. However, "Kosova" will never gain international legitimacy. It can have some kind of special status within the EU only (assuming the EU still exists at that time) but it will never be a fully recognised legitimate state.

Remember, more than autonomy less than independence is self-fulfilling. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

Just remember how Serbia let albanians enter our country from impoverished Albania only to stabb us in the back, claim our territory and kill our people.
(MikeC, 17 November 2010 17:39)

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.

Serbs have a cultural enheritance but Albanians - ILLYRIANS! - have it also and even bigger than the rest of the balkans.

The only invaders in the balkans are the slavic people.

Most of the Serbs comments i read hear or from persons who do know little or nothing.
They have never been in Kosova but only go after the so-called facts of their political/nationalistics leaders.

kosova, I love you.

The problem is the last call is in the hands of serbia. There is first off all many issues to be straightened out, before recognition. Until now it seams to me that the albanians want everything for free.

@ Kosovo-USA, 'More than autonomy, less than independence' = RES1244 which means VJ & MUP in KiM & the border with Albania within a federal framework allowing Albanians to have enough economic independence that they can't blame Belgrade for their own ineptitude & corruption
(highduke, 17 November 2010 15:52)

Good question by Kosova-USA, and the answer was nothing but illusion from hajduke.
First of all there is no such thing as "VJ", second the scenario described could happened in Serb movies, but not in real life.

"Kosovo talks should end in mutual recognition"

-- "Should" is the operative word. What Kosovo talks probably "will" end up producing is mutual cantonization.

Koha is peeing in the wind. The problem for the Albanians is that Serbia does recognize their little UDI, in any stage. The so-called technical problems would be solved overnight, once the status issue is resolved. All this coming from some Albanian paper.

There is one big flaw in this. Serbia does not need Kosovo's recognition, unlike Kosovo which needs Serbia's recognition.
(Peggy, 17 November 2010 22:54)

Its quite the opposite Peggy. See we can make lives very difficult for those in Serbia and we don't need to even touch one pistol. Its easy. All we can do is stall. We know EU integration is probably 2 decades away for us; and that's being optimistic. We also know that Serbia is in desperate need of EU money and EU investments. All we can do is stall and hence create a sense of insecurity in Serbia where investing will be harder due to a conflict going on. Also due to this conflict Serbia will lose billions over they year in EU aid, since it won't be a member; and that means more protests over pensions and teacher's pay; more social unrest; more religious and extreme nuts getting into power in Serbia. You see this total neglect of what we could possibly bring to Serbia is what brought you those bombs in 1999. Yet you never seem to learn. We can indeed do some serious harm. This is not a one way thing you like and imagine to be. Sure Serbia can cause harm; but so can we. The last decade should have been a lesson. It simple look at where Slovenia is because of no open conflicts and look at where you are. You're gonna be stuck here for a while until you work against our interests. The only way for you to actually move forward not have any headaches is when you realize that the existence of two states means no conflicts. Let me put it this way. Even if by some magical mean Kosova was to be integrated totally within Serbia conflict will exists because things will be stirred up because the will of the people is to cut Serbia away. Serbia would still be in a perpetual state of conflict. It has indeed been that way since the Berlin conference just took a chunk of land that didn't belong to Serbia and gave it to you.

veton surroi is this club and nobody else,so this story is of no importance!loss of time to comment his proposals

At the beginning of negotiations, Kosovo is already somewhere between "more than autonomy, less than independence" and fully recognized independence.

Serbia is starting with some of its citizens living in a (former?) "province" that it has had absolutely no control over for the past 11 years.

For Kosovo to gain anything from negotiations, it must move further towards fully recognized independence and further away from "more than autonomy, less than independence."

MTALTI (shortened to this to save B92 posters a lot of typing) cannot be Serbia's best offer, since Kosovo already has much more than that. If it is Serbia's final offer, then Kosovo is perfectly happy to never talk with Serbia and let things remain as they currently are, since every day the situation in Kosovo (at least south of the Ibar river) gets better than they day before.

--"During the consultations so far, the Kosovo side agreed that talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status," continues the article.--

So, i don't see one word here about the missing; is it somehow implied? there are at least over 1000 still missing ethnic albanians and some 500 non-albanians, mostly serbs. i am quite confident that both sides know more then they're letting on (to say the least.) at least fr the blgd regime, there is an unwritten order NOT to exhume any more gravesites w/ ethnic alb bodies (Perucac being a single exception because of intl pressure and the exhuming on the bosnian side, related to climate change, as i've written about here on numerous occasions.)

it is all (sleazy) politics as one eulex official recently admitted to us. duh.

so for me, that is one of the first priorities and a non-negotiable.

one problem is that many of the alb bodies can never be found, and by that i mean body parts, co-mingled body parts. why? because they were burned, at extremely high temperatures, at various industrialized furnaces. at trepca, and at mackatica, in 1999. perhaps other sites as well. there is a great deal of evidence, this isn't merely "speculation" or allegation. i've written about this here a # of times here, and no one ever comments. somehow it seems like the most horrifying things are just greeted w/ a ho-hum by all sides. is it more horrendous than one can imagine? yeah, that's the balkans... unimaginable war crimes as a lifestyle?

something is really wrong with this picture.

anyway, if these are the "tech" issues, then let the talks begin, because i've lost patience a long time ago.

the other aspect, of course, is the prosecution of war crimes and war criminals. except for what the hague has accomplished (not referring to what's his name brammertz), only very! isolated war crimes have been adjudicated in blgd. and they've been done quite badly, and only because of natasa kandic and her colleagues. it is so pathetic. thousands of war criminals walking free and easy on the streets of blgd. "you never know whose bloody hand you are shaking..." commented svetlana broz, and she, unfortunately, hit it right on the mark.

so folks, let's get moving, and put some pressure on the politicians to talk about substance -- and it won't be easy. it shouldn't be.

ciao!

roberto
frisco

You prove that Albanians have been in Kosovo for thousands of years. There are bridges and roads built by the Turks in that region, there are Churches, monasteries built by Serbs, where are those ancient ruins that the Albanian Illyrians left for posterity??????
Me thinks we have to go to Mars for those.
(sj, 18 November 2010 04:29)

You Serbs are the last people in the world that i need to prove anything about my people.You are invaders in the Balkans.Not only Kosovo but the whole Serbia is land that you stole when you invaded.When you go to Mars don't forget to claim it as Serbian land and the craddle of the Serbian civilization. You are used to that method.

Well the important thing is that nothing will change and Kosovo will never be ruled by Belgrade. So Serbia will have to recognize Kosovo to be an EU-member and must do so because it will never rule over Kosovo again.

There can be compromises on different technical things but Kosovo will stay being an independent state recognized by majority of Eu member states. Both Kosovo and Serbia needs ''good neighbourly relations'' with each other and that means recognizing each other.

The result of this so called dialoug will end with Serbian recognition of an independent and multi-ethnic Kosovo. As it is right now, functional and mature to hold a dialoug.

Nobody should belive that Kosovo will have to give up it's independence to be an EU member state. Albanians are not so eager to lose their independence to get EU membership. Boris Tadic knowes that Serbia will never again rule over Kosovo without using force so they will have to recognize Kosovo for Eu membership.

"From its standpoint the dialogue is a process whose ultimate end should be the mutual recognition of Kosovo and Serbia, and their accession in the EU," writes the newspaper.
=====================

There is one big flaw in this. Serbia does not need Kosovo's recognition, unlike Kosovo which needs Serbia's recognition.

"……. talks with Belgrade should be divided into three stages: a preliminary phase or phase without status, a mid-phase or phase with neutral status and a final phase or phase with status…...”

Told you so! Status is on the table. When will you learn that my sources are on the ball and don’t tell me stories. Oh by the way, the last line in the article “At the end of the process they will recognize each other and become EU member states," is crap because survey after survey has shown that Serbs don’t care about joining the EU, but it’s only to provide some cover for the Albos as negotiations were never on the table, but are now forced because the EU has run out of cash and has to finalize this matter.
To be honest, negotiations never took place before because they would not favor the Albanians. It’s only the WFC that has changed the situation.

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.
(Mark, 17 November 2010 18:59)

There have always been Albanians in Kosovo and that cannot be denied, but not in the numbers we have today. Your women would have to be rabbits to reproduce in those numbers even if they had 20 children each.
The big move of Albanians to Kosovo occurred from 1945 onwards where large numbers escaped/left Albania and Tito welcomed them with open arms giving them free accommodation, free electricity, cloths, shoes etc. It was Tito playing politics with Albania and the world. Tito also saw Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia as danger to that entity so he wanted that to be “watered down” by letting Albanians into Kosovo.
Read it in history books – it’s all there.

HAHAHA, albo fantasy discoland. Drill these facts into you meager brains a) Serbia will not recognize you; b) You won't get into the UN, the eu, the Olympics and FIFA; and c) the us can no longer afford to protect you. Buh Bye.

Read it in history books – it’s all there.
sj

Are the 'history books' you're referring to written by authors whose names end in 'vic' or 'elj'?

By the late 1960s, the Albanians were in Kosovo in large numbers and the rest is history.
(sj, 18 November 2010 10:43)

Your argument's strength is ambiguity. What do you mean "thousands"??

Albania itself was 1.2 mil in 1944. If 10,000 Alb left and stayed in Kosovo they would today count for max 30K kosovars, if 50K left during that time and stayed in Kosovo they would count for max 150K of the population of Kosovo today, still a drop in the ocean.

There is no records anywhere, in Albania or any international source that talks about a mass migration of Albanians into Yugoslavia, especially when u talk about thousands. All we have is the story of your 82 yr old father, who thinks that Albanians shot him in the back, that's why they don't deserve Kosovo...

The history is not made by conclusions such as yours "it makes sense for Hoxha to open the borders... just like Castro" Hoxha never opened the borders. Your logic is self-denying. You admit that Albanian border gurads would shot and kill those who tried to escape, yet thousands escaped? So the more they killed the more they tried to escape through that danger.


The natural growth of the population has tripled the Albanian population in Kosovo just like it did in Albania. It doesn't take a rocket scientiest to see that. It's really easy math. But you always try find some subjective reason to blame on someone else (Tito) so you can as always depict yourselves as innocent victims.

Also your math is foulty. Statistically during the last 70 yrs there has been a growth rate of 4.2 children per woman in Kosovo, more than enough to reach the numbers we have today. But in any case this is not a super-high number. In US this rate used to be 4.9 especially for the 3 decades after WWII.

The K-Alb population since early 1900 has grown by roughly 300%, from 560K to some 1.8 mil. The population of Albanians in Albania where there was no immigration has also grown by 300%, from 1.2mil in 1912 to some 4 mil today.

So your theory is nothing else but pipe dream that they feed you in Serbia, to make you feel good.
(Denis, 18 November 2010 05:26)

Firstly, I don’t live in Serbia, but on the other side of the world. Secondly, my father was in the Yugoslav army from 1945 to 1952 and he spent it all in Macedonia and Kosovo as a border guard. In fact my father, age 82, still carries a bullet in his back from an Albanian border guard which he got on the Macedonian/Albanian section.
During the 9 years as a border guard thousands, not tens or hundreds, but thousands crossed over to Yugoslavia - yes it was dangerous because the Albanian border guards shot their own people, but thousands did escape to Yugo. Tito playing the big man gave them free accommodation, free electricity, free clothing etc. There is also logic in “allowing” people to escape paradise, as Albanian communists would call their home, because it releases the pressure on the rest of the population. The communists in Albania would never admit this fact, but Castro did the same only 15 years ago when he opened all his prisons and told them to go to America.
You have to read up on your history as Tito did not allow free migration until the mid to late 1960s – that’s when many Yugoslavs went to Germany as guest workers and elsewhere. So you see this so called “leaving for America” only happened a lot, lot later. By the late 1960s, the Albanians were in Kosovo in large numbers and the rest is history.

it is so pathetic. thousands of war criminals walking free and easy on the streets of blgd. "you never know whose bloody hand you are shaking..." commented svetlana broz, and she, unfortunately, hit it right on the mark.

roberto
frisco
(roberto, 18 November 2010 05:23)

He really shouldn't be allowed to get away with this. "Thousands of war criminals" are walking the streets of Belgrade, are they? This is a racist lie and and he knows it.

MTALTI (shortened to this to save B92 posters a lot of typing) cannot be Serbia's best offer, since Kosovo already has much more than that. If it is Serbia's final offer, then Kosovo is perfectly happy to never talk with Serbia and let things remain as they currently are, since every day the situation in Kosovo (at least south of the Ibar river) gets better than they day before.
(Glenn, 17 November 2010 22:07)

Refresh my memory but what do “Kosovars” produce apart mouths to feed? If there was a competition for the greatest social security collects then you would win hands down. So what’s getting better and better every day south of the Ibar? Albanians living abroad and spouting BS?

“……..Albanians are not so eager to lose their independence to get EU …..” Boris Tadic knowes that Serbia will never again rule over Kosovo without using force so they will have to recognize Kosovo for Eu membership”
(Demi, 17 November 2010 22:02)

Who is going to ask the Albanians? When you live from hand to mouth because others give you money so you can eat then who is going to ask for your opinion? If you don’t like it then starve.
Oh the EU is dying; don’t you people keep abreast of the news?

When did Serbia let Albanians in from impoverished Albania? Provide sources and don't speculate out of bitternes.
(Mark, 17 November 2010 18:59)

You prove that Albanians have been in Kosovo for thousands of years. There are bridges and roads built by the Turks in that region, there are Churches, monasteries built by Serbs, where are those ancient ruins that the Albanian Illyrians left for posterity??????
Me thinks we have to go to Mars for those.

There have always been Albanians in Kosovo and that cannot be denied, but not in the numbers we have today. Your women would have to be rabbits to reproduce in those numbers even if they had 20 children each.
The big move of Albanians to Kosovo occurred from 1945 onwards where large numbers escaped/left Albania and Tito welcomed them with open arms giving them free accommodation, free electricity, cloths, shoes etc. It was Tito playing politics with Albania and the world. Tito also saw Serbian hegemony in Yugoslavia as danger to that entity so he wanted that to be “watered down” by letting Albanians into Kosovo.
Read it in history books – it’s all there.
(sj, 17 November 2010 21:16)

Which book? Your assumption without a doubt has no substance. The border between Albania and Yugoslavia after 1945 was sealed by communist regime in Albania, and if anyone tried to pass it was executed on the spot, and their families inprisoned. Roughly a condition for a mass migration.

Everyone who has the slightest knowledge of what went on in Albania those years knows this very well. Further, even those who dared te pass the border and did so successfully did not stay in Serbia but moved on to immigrate in the West mainly US.

In fact the opposite is true. From prior 1945 you will find today large concentration of K-Alb in Albania, especially in cities of Durres and Fier.

Also your math is foulty. Statistically during the last 70 yrs there has been a growth rate of 4.2 children per woman in Kosovo, more than enough to reach the numbers we have today. But in any case this is not a super-high number. In US this rate used to be 4.9 especially for the 3 decades after WWII.

The K-Alb population since early 1900 has grown by roughly 300%, from 560K to some 1.8 mil. The population of Albanians in Albania where there was no immigration has also grown by 300%, from 1.2mil in 1912 to some 4 mil today.

So your theory is nothing else but pipe dream that they feed you in Serbia, to make you feel good.

Your argument's strength is ambiguity. What do you mean "thousands"??

(Denis, 18 November 2010 15:50)

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

http://opinionleaders.htmlplanet.com/prealbrule.html

http://desip.igc.org/StressInKosovo.html

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....

This is from B92 almost three years ago. The Hague testimony of Yves Tomic a Balkan expert from the University of Sorbonne in Paris:
The witness added that, according to official Yugoslav data, during the Kosovo war, only 3000 Albanians born in Albania and another 500 Albanian civilians born in Kosovo, and temporarily residing in Albania, had moved.

According to the same source, from 1941 to 1948, 15,000 Albanians from Albania had moved to Kosovo, he said.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=01&dd=30&nav_id=47356

You Serbs are the last people in the world that i need to prove anything about my people.You are invaders in the Balkans.Not only Kosovo but the whole Serbia is land that you stole when you invaded.When you go to Mars don't forget to claim it as Serbian land and the craddle of the Serbian civilization. You are used to that method.
(Mark, 18 November 2010 18:02)

Yep, it’s a lot easier to open your mouth and let the flies in. Just tell me where they are; I ask for nothing else. Give me a few sites, even the Sea of Tranquility would do.

(Denis, 18 November 2010 15:50)
As you’re such a historian, did you know that 5 000 Greek communists also escaped over the borders of Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. There was a miss communication and the Yugo border guards were not told of the Greeks coming over – it was only after one of them managed to cross over and alter the Yugo army that the shooting stopped. How many were killed no one really knows even to this day, estimates vary from 500 to 1000.
Oh, this is not in any of your US books either. It shows how there are many incidents that never make it to official records, and if you’re looking at history books in the US, well knowing how introverted those windbags are, why would that surprise anyone. Ronald Regan thought that Australia was located in Europe.
You want the history books to note my father’s incident. He was shot by an Albanian border guard because the fire came from across the border.
This Albanian migration occurred over a period of three decades or more. In fact, your Albos were crossing over in the 1970s and at that time some did not settle in Kosovo and left for the US or elsewhere. As far as your population is concerned well I don’t have an Albanian calculator to come up with the same “math”.
“The history is not made by conclusions such as yours "it makes sense for Hoxha to open the borders” Perhaps I should have said it may be one explanation – I don’t know, but you seem to have been part of his inner circle and I’ll leave it at that.

(johny, 18 November 2010 18:11)

I think that the maximum Serbia will ever be able to achieve by its effective diplomacy, it will be the failure of the Ahtisari plan, and that would mean, partition of Kosovo, which also would bring the further isolation of Serbian religious sites and also the very extended rights of the Serbs in kosovo, which you must admitt that no other minority of that percentage has in the Balkans. Yes, you would get northern Kosovo, but the life of Serbs in the south would become very hard, and if no Serbs in there, no Serbian heritage sites neither. I kinda like this idea, i think a multiethnic state in Kosovo is an experiment which will fail. If serbs and albanians, which have to accept that they are neighbour nations,want to make peace as neighbours, they have to agree where is the fence of the serb house and the albanian house. we hate each other too much so other solutions are inmpossible. This is my opinion, Thanks

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....
(Denis, 19 November 2010 17:09)

By: Dr. Stephen K. Stoan, Ph.D. History, Duke University, 1970
Director of Library and Information Services, Drury College
Springfield MO 65802



The University is organized into two undergraduate, ten graduate and professional schools, and seven institutes. In its 2011 edition, U.S. News & World Report ranked the university's undergraduate program 9th among national universities, while ranking the medical, law, public affairs, nursing and business graduate programs as high as 6th and as low as 15th, all among the top 15 in the United States. Duke University is also ranked 14th in the 2010 QS World University Rankings.

Yet your the only one laughing, it must be a lonely world. Now some sources from you apart from your mouth?????

Actually his argument strength is backed by facts.

[link]

[link]

This certainly does not fit in the criterea "NATURAL".
(Dan, 19 November 2010 10:14)

Haha these are your historical sources?? I would rather stick with the "sj"-s 82 yrs old father story.

At least he knows where the bullet came from. Seems way more "convincing"....
(Denis, 19 November 2010 17:09)

This tells it all. I convey first hand information but that’s no good documentation is required.
Dan provides documentation but that’s also no good because both do not substantiate Albanian BS.

What does it mean when one says "mutual-recognition"?

Kosovo will recognize half of Belgrade as the authority, and Serbia must recognize half of Pristina as the other authority ?

The beaurocrats in Washington must be soiling themsevles right about now, what a joke.

I convey first hand information but that’s no good documentation is required.
Dan provides documentation but that’s also no good because both do not substantiate Albanian BS.
(sj, 20 November 2010 01:19)

That's not called documentation... That’s more close to garbage. Even Wikipedia has a higher research standard than the two articles mentioned in those links. Just because somebody is a PhD, does not mean he/she is correct.

Dan brought the opinion of somebody who says "Perhaps 400,000 illegal Albanian immigrants arrived from Albanian in the years after WWII". Note... "perhaps" !!!!. After such a sentence a serious scholar would put the source where he found that data for others to verify (that's something required even by Wikipedia, let alone by a research article), unless he personally observed those 400,000 moving from Albania to Kosovo. However, it’s understandable why he does not provide a source; because such a source does not exist.

Instead of going to the interpretation of the interpretation of the interpretation, let’s go to the primary source of the data. Albania’s population was 1.12 million (1945 census), 1.22 million (1950 census), 1.39 million (1955 census) and 1.63 million (1960 census). The number of Albanians in Serbia (including Kosovo) was 420 thousand (1921 census), 532 thousand (1948 census), 566 thousand (1953 census) and 700 thousand (1961 census). Census data shows the “400,000” mentioned by Mr. K.H. von Kaufmann is totally ridiculous. These “400,000” could not come from Albania, and wherever they came from, they did not go to Kosovo. So not sure what Mr. von Kaufmann is speaking about (probably a country different from Kosovo), unless he reveals us the “sources” as a real researcher would do.

The other author Dr. Stephen K. Stoan, Ph.D. History, says somewhere in the article that Tito “signed a deal with the new Communist dictator of Albania to bring in another 100,000 Albanian settlers”. He, at least, is more reasonable (being a PhD) and cuts the number to 100,000, which is statistically more reasonable, even though highly improbably if we consider the census data. But, again no reference about the archive where he saw such agreement, as a real historian would do. Also, read his entire article and you could hardly find a citation on documentary sources for the many “facts” he mentions there.

So how can you expect that we take those examples seriously ?! Just because they were written by a PhD or by somebody called “von Kaufmann” who did not bother to provide the sources for the “facts” mentioned.