Eviction of Islamic faculty postponed

Flamur,

I talked to PRN and at first his answer was, he is ready to defend Albanian land even in the outer space. But I have doubts about his Albanism being that serious - he secretly admitted, that only half of moons rotating around Jupiter were originally Albanian. So you better watch out and try to influence him into the right direction: the entire universe we can observe was, is and always will be Albanian.

Sanjak for independence. Dont talk to the thieves and criminals but stand firm and fight for your legitimate right.

This time no genocide will be allowed, as international community has opened the eyes at last....

This is beyond surreal. Would anyone from Sandzak like to comment on the fact that they are Albanians who have forgotten - in less than a century - every last vestige of Albanian language, culture and identity.

Here's a though for you PRN: has it ever occurred to you that your selective delvings into history rather undermine any case for an independent Kosovo? If there's a historic Albanian claim on Novi Pazar, well, how can I break this to you gently - all those old Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo didn't build themselves, did they?

Whatever, it's a pity to see an important issue swamped in irrelevant pro/anti-Kosovo trolling. Somewhat more vigorous moderation might be a good idea.

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...
(PRN, 28 October 2010 14:22)


you albanians should be in comedy because albania is not albanian lands. it was serbian and greek as the world knows it and right now 35% of albania is none albanians.

Council of Europe: Albania Is A Multiethnic State


http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/AlbaniaMultiethnic.html

and you think sandzak is albanian lands lol. you must be joking and the population of the area is now 50-50 and no albanians anywhere. just like in the preshovo valley you albanians are only a majority in 1 town and that's it. and yes the history is repeating because you are not balkan peoples and are moving out . so you keep dreaming and thinking the moon is albania because nothing is, you were wanderers like the gypsies in history and then you converted to turkish muslim so the greeks want their lands back from albania which is in the works right now and now they say slavic Macedonians want their part back which is part of macedonia and not albania

http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/parts.htm

so maybe you should worry about what's going on in your country and not someone else's, oh wait you dont have a country you just try to steal other peoles lands but karma is hurting you no one else.

That is how people like PRN and Zukorlic think. They think that if you go to a place owned by somebody else, then all you have to do is populate the place and in a little time, all of a sudden, it now belongs to you.

I wished things worked like that other places. Then if I see a nice mansion that I like, I would just have to move in and in a little time, I can claim ownership of that house. Good old Kosovo Albanian steal estate, oops, I mean real estate. LOL.

"Sanjak for independence. Dont talk to the thieves and criminals but stand firm and fight for your legitimate right.

This time no genocide will be allowed, as international community has opened the eyes at last...." (PRN)

-- Oh shut up already.

the entire universe we can observe was, is and always will be Albanian.
(The true nature of the universe, 28 October 2010 14:15)
--
Yes, but when I read my history books going back to the creation of the universe they were more commonly known as Alb-aliens back then but somehow that mutated into Albanians here on earth. PRN, what do your history books say? Can you confirm?

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...

To expand upon Dave's point - PRN you do realise that if you use the beginning of the 20th century as a marker for Sandzak / Presevo then it should be applied to Kosovo also. In that period it thought by many academics that neither Serbs nor Albanians had a clear majority in Kosovo. And only a few years before the turn of that century, the Ottoman invasion caused the death or cleansing of hundreds of over 100,000 Kosovo Serbs, tipping the balance in favour of Kosovo Albanians.

Its easy to read history from one perspective or the other starting from a 'suitable' date, but if one decides on an arbitrary date to stake a claim, it has to apply to everything and not just one event.

Prove it, Johny. You can't. Where did all these other tribes go then. Only the Albanis survived, and became today's Albanians? Did the Albanis kill all the other tribes and claim their land? It's all Hoxha's BS, and Albanians bought it. BTW, can you have a conversation without trying to degrade someone, because of their ethnicity? I don't think that Albanians are known for their brains.

Here are just a few Albanian researchers that dispute the Illyrian claim.

Kaplan Resuli
Adrian Qosi
Fatos Lubonja
Adrian Vebiu

Not to mention all the other researchers who are not Albanian that have said the same thing.

Albanians came to the Balkans from Sicily on boats, like the ones Castro loaded up with people he didn't want, and sent to the USA. Just look at Albanian last names, they all end in vowels, like Italian (Sicilian) surnames. They became sheep herders in the mountains of the Balkans, segregated themselves from anyone, and never through their history did they try and assimilate with their neighbors, except for selling out their religious beliefs to the Ottomans, and became Arnauts, or Ottomanized.This was done for favors from the Turks, and privileges that people loyal to their cultures and faits did not have. This Illyrian theory of Albanian roots, is something that Enver Hoxha came up with to give the Albanians s respectable history, nothing else. I have asked my grandparents, and great grandparents, and no one heard of any Illyrian Albanian connection. Seems like the entire Albanian history is one of assuming other cultures, and taking others' land. Serbs have many monasteries in KiM providing proof of their history there, what proof do the Albanians have? Did the Illyrians get tired of being Illyrians, and decided to one day change their tribal name to Albanians? Does everyone see how stupid that sounds? Anyway, I am really getting tired of this Illyrian Albanian discussion here, it is totally of no importance.

"PRN", this is Albanian land. No one can give it to the Slavs, whether Bosniak or Serb. Are you really Albanian or is this some form of provocation?

The connection between Albanians and Illyrians is in no way proven, there are enough researchers that dispute that claim.

What is more likely, is that the Albanians got the name Albanoi in the same way they got the name Kosovars. They likely moved into the land of the Albanoi people, and eventually decided that they would take it for there own and call theirselves by the name of the land they stole.

Did the Illyrians get tired of being Illyrians, and decided to one day change their tribal name to Albanians? Does everyone see how stupid that sounds? Anyway, I am really getting tired of this Illyrian Albanian discussion here, it is totally of no importance.
(winston, 28 October 2010 17:36)

Open a book, instead of spreading bitterness and hate. It would do you good.
The Illyrians were comprised of many tribes. Illyria or Illyrians does not refer to only one tribe. So it is stupid and ignorant to think that the name changed from Illyria to Albania. That is an ignorant and uneducated assertion to make. Some of the Illyrian tribes were the Taulati, the Enkelei, the Dardans, Ardians, the Albani etc. So having said that what sounds really stupid is you believing that one day all of these different tribes sat down in the morning for coffee and decided to change their name. That is stupid and malicious on your part. But then you're a Serb so whatever. It was the outsiders that correlated us with the Albani tribe which lived in the vicinity of Albania's capital. It wasn't the tribes changing their names over coffee; as your uneducated hypothesis claims.

Open a book, instead of spreading bitterness and hate. It would do you good.
The Illyrians were comprised of many tribes. Illyria or Illyrians does not refer to only one tribe. So it is stupid and ignorant to think that the name changed from Illyria to Albania. That is an ignorant and uneducated assertion to make. Some of the Illyrian tribes were the Taulati, the Enkelei, the Dardans, Ardians, the Albani etc. So having said that what sounds really stupid is you believing that one day all of these different tribes sat down in the morning for coffee and decided to change their name. That is stupid and malicious on your part. But then you're a Serb so whatever. It was the outsiders that correlated us with the Albani tribe which lived in the vicinity of Albania's capital. It wasn't the tribes changing their names over coffee; as your uneducated hypothesis claims.
(johny, 28 October 2010 18:21)


sorry to tell you maybe you should open a book because kosovo is Serbian lands and you are not illyrians like you claim here is something for everyone to read and learn history.

The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques

http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=where+did+albanians+originate+from&source=bl&ots=YIHORjjNGG&sig=SeNwVonegEJZUyfsG9bBVZ_D2cE&hl=en&ei=ogUSSujYA6XcMPy3tPYM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

John Wilkes proves albanians are not illyrians?


http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=where+did+albanians+originate+from&source=bl&ots=YIHORjjNGG&sig=SeNwVonegEJZUyfsG9bBVZ_D2cE&hl=en&ei=ogUSSujYA6XcMPy3tPYM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7


and even albanian historians say you are not illyrian and skanderbeg was part serbian and part greek-slavic so the truth prevails and not fantasy albanian stories you only like to believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA

http://serbiannationalist.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/skenderbeg-a-serb/

so enjoy world facts and not yours.so it turns out you have a serbian -greek-slavic statue called skanderbeg in the middle of Tirane and albania is not even albanian lands but also Serbian-Greek lands

Actually, look at this genetic map. It showns Albanians have more in common with Russians than Serbian's do. ROFL!

Check http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png

@PRN

If you are like that
then ill tell you this:
The whole of Albania Belongs to Serbia!
Why:
Look up Serbian empire and you will see how big Serbia then was.
Serbs also lived in Drac and in Skadar so I will say those city's to Serbia.
In the 15th Century Kosovo was 98% Serbian
Because many Serbs left and /or assimilated or were forced out today we have a 90% Albanian Kosovo.
But if kosovo was 98% Serbian 500 years ago to who belongs it then? make an educated guess!

Johny, just because people do not bye your view of Albanian history, does not mean they do not read. By your statement, you are implying that you are more educated than others. You are not. Maybe the books you have read are Albanian, and are skewed? I have read quite a few works on the history of the Balkans, and it is suggested by historians that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian tribes, as may be other ethnicities there, but without total certainty. Do you not believe that people are entitled to their beliefs. One more question, why do you think you deserve any kind of love and understanding on a Serbian news site? What have Albanians, historically done, to deserve love and understanding from Serbs?

-- Oh shut up already.
(Mike, 28 October 2010 19:48)
--
I see it's working. PRN is a weapon against common sense.

Very funny thread of comments I have to admit. The article is about eviction of the islamic faculty, whereas the comments are about albanians and illyrians and who came first the serbian chicken or the albanian egg. it takes just a PRN and a winston to tango.

"But history is slwoly turing back." (PRN)

The current ethnic composition of Sandzak. I can see it's just swimming in Albanian blue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Raska02i03.png

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...
(PRN)
-
Where do you get your information from?

Care to share?

I will never understand some fellow ethnic Albanians with their "love" for Sandzak.

Guys, you seriously want an area full with fundamentalistic muslims? Let Serbs deal with that problem. Many of them are anyway Serbs with muslim faith. They have nothing to do with the Albanian people, even if they were part of the Valjat of Kosovo.

"But if kosovo was 98% Serbian 500 years ago to who belongs it then? make an educated guess!
(Stevie, 29 October 2010 16:35) "

500 years ago? The Turks, wasn't it? But 1000 years ago? 2000 years ago? The Bronze Age? The Mesolithic? Who determines the date of "original ownership", anyway?

Well...the thing is that serbs and slavs are not indigineous to the balkans... only albanians and greeks are ...slavs came after 7th century...
(iliri)
-
The Albanians came yesterday c'mon man, everyone knows this!

We call ourselves as Shqiptars...not Albanians...also, ilyrian in albanian language means ''to be free'' many foreign scholars discredit this fact and say it is coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe not. But names such as 'roman', 'serb', 'greek', 'bosnian' etc have no meaning in albanian... But the well prooven fact is that ''Shqiptar'' name comes exclusively from Skanderbeg who used to call his fellow people and soldiers as ''sons of eagle'' hence Shqiptar...another fact is that Skanderbeg himself was prety romantic when concerning ancient history, and is quite logical considering that 15th century was a period in europe when elite was retrieving facts and origins from the past that church had been trying to skip...so, not by coincidence , Skanderbeg considered himself and his people as a descedants of epirotes and Phyrrus, when Skanderbeg was in the italian campaigns he even used to call albanians as either arbers or epirotes, as Phyrrus used to call his soldiers ''sons of eagle''... that is probaly why greeks are desperately trying to prove that Skanderbeg was either a serb or a greek ... Skanderbeg presence in history, is not as much disturbing for serbs as it is for greeks, who have been saying that epirotes were greeks and not illyrians....while if we look at the facts, epirotes in antiquity were considered by greeks as barbarians, and the language they spoke most probably was closer to illyrian...as a shprachbund ilyrain and thracheans were on the same group any way....shortly, the very fact that albanians have two main dialects, does not indicate that were are two different ethnicies as greek sponsered propaganda wouuld like to conclude, but indicates the fact that illyrians of dalmacia, who were less dense but the most scattered , were pushed south when slavian hordes emigrated in...to conclude roughly, Tosk albanians are most probably descedants of epirotes, geg albanians have more of a mountain way of life, it commonsense to suggest that our lands used to include what we call today as dynaric mountains where illyrians settled...also, toponyms mean nothing, Kosovo Albanians don't call themselves as kosovars, it is us the Albanians of ALbania that call them as Kosovars because for 50 years uncle Enver called them as ''Kosovars''in his speeches.. so that Tito would not reveal his litle dirty secret how E. Hoxha sold out Kosovo to the Yugoslavs...actually, if i were a serb, i would have built a huge statue of E.Hoxha and honor him as a hero for the damage he did to our nation... E.Hoxha damaged Albanian cause more than Milosevic...also the historical truths about illyrians were not invented by Hoxha, if it was for E.Hoxha , we would have been educated that we were southern slavs and that we speak a different language for some strange trivial reasons...but E Hoxha was not stupid enough to opose whole conclusions of Austrian and German scholars held during 19th century, you can fight political oponents by acusing them of revisionism and have them trialed, but you can not fight linguistics, scholars who study language , for the simple reason that the ALbanian language, is not subject to politcs, unlike serbian, macedonain ,bulgarian, croatian and other slavic languages ... it is funny to see slavs tell albanians how our 2500 identity was not prroven by scholars yet while their own 1300 year identity is still subject to debates and is not settled, wether serbs were croats or not (or vice versa),wether bulgarians are slavs or not etc

Why not wait for the population geneticists to sort out who was where, when? Arguments are more fun when there are actual data to play with.
(Amer, 28 October 2010 19:50)
--
Well, they already have but will you accept the results?

Here is an extract.

"Thus, Serbs are mainly descendants of Paleo-Balkan peoples previously known as Dacians, Illyrians and Thracians."

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Serbs and go to Genetics.

"The simple point is that the current Balkan people are generally indiginous to the region and not immigrants as some (on both sides) would have us believe. So it's time we started to get along with each other and love our neighbours, brothers and sisters as the bible teaches. Then we will experience true peace and life.
(Zoran, 29 October 2010 10:31) "

The "Balkan people" are a varied mixture, as are most peoples in Europe. And you're right, this should not be a cause of present-day animosity. Eventually the history of the peopling of the peninsula will be studied in detail, as the history of the British Isles is, where they can now detect the nearly simultaneous arrival of different groups of the same ethnicity at different points along the coast. It's a relief to have some new tools available to use in the Balkans and to be able to get away from arguments based on languages that the Romans never saw fit to record. If DNA evidence could be used to identify the origin of the Etruscans (since nobody believed Herodotus' version), it can be used to unravel the history of the Balkans, and people can start to say "so what, we're all here now and have to live together." Until that happens, hoping that everybody will simply ignore the matter and start treating each other as long-lost brothers is probably excessively optimistic. "The truth shall make you free," right?

Loved the Armija BiH flag hanging outside. Nice touch. Saw it waving at Eurosong competition in Belgrade Arena a couple years ago. But no one humiliates the Serbian nation as well as they do to themselves. Svaka ti cast.

Well...the thing is that serbs and slavs are not indigineous to the balkans... only albanians and greeks are ...slavs came after 7th century...

Why not wait for the population geneticists to sort out who was where, when? Arguments are more fun when there are actual data to play with.

Jim what the hell man. Lay off politics for a while. We're dealing with an uninformed hypothesis by Winston, not with Kosova.

Winston the tribes did not vanish in thin air. Instead they mixed an matched. They mixed with each other and they mixed with others such as slavs, greeks, romans, romanians etc.. Again Albanians as they are known today got their name from one of the tribes (Albani) from outsiders. The Enkelei for example lived in the Ohrid area. Then you got the Taulanti living on the Adriatic. They still called themselves that for a period of time. Some of the tribes did vanish, some consolidated, some where invaded, some did indeed become one with those who invaded them. Then like now things were fluid politically. There were wars, invasions birder changes then as well. The same thing we know today. You don't hear people today calling Germans Prussians today either. So yes historically names have changed and disappeared, and some have remained. There is nothing out of the ordinary here.
Also if you had actually opened a book instead of speaking from your usual political bias you would know that the vast majority of research on Illyrians was not done by Albanians but by outsiders, italians, Austrians, Germans, even Slavs. So the usual Hoxha nonsense doesn't work here. Read Alexandar Stipevic if you want to know more on the issue. As a matter of fact if you truly want to know more, read about his involvement on this issue and Jugoslavia's view ,up to the arrival of Milosevic. There's plenty on the inner workings of Serb historians there. There is a lot to learn there about the attitudes of historians on such issue before and after things became politically messed up.

"Johny, just because people do not bye your view of Albanian history, does not mean they do not read."

-- I did not maintain the opposite. However it easy to spot an uneducated hypothesis of a person who knows nothing about the issue but the usual political bumper stickers as opposed to someone who doesn't agree but has put time and effort on the issue.

"By your statement, you are implying that you are more educated than others. You are not."

-- Not at all. By my statement I am simply implying that Winston's knowledge and thus hypothesis on this issue, is total nonsense and based on biased petty politics rather than historical knowledge. He can be very educated indeed. His hypothesis is ignorant. That is all I am saying.

"Maybe the books you have read are Albanian, and are skewed? I have read quite a few works on the history of the Balkans, and it is suggested by historians that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian tribes, as may be other ethnicities there, but without total certainty. "

-- If you had read my post you would have noticed that I did not talk about certainty. As a matter of fact this is more about how naive Winston's claim, that all the Illyrian tribes would have to have changed their names to Albania in an instant and simultaneous fashion for Albanians to be in any way related to Illyrians. This is an uneducated assumption that fails scientific and historical facts. There does not need to be a massive change of any tribe to be related to descendants. That is the whole point.

"Do you not believe that people are entitled to their beliefs."

-- Sure they are. They are not allowed to be entitled to their own facts. The fact is that there does not need to be a massive instantaneous and simultaneous change in the name of ancient tribes for them to be related with their descendant. This is a fact; not opinion. Winston on the other hand makes up uneducated hypotheses and tries to pass them as fact.

"One more question, why do you think you deserve any kind of love and understanding on a Serbian news site? What have Albanians, historically done, to deserve love and understanding from Serbs?"

-- Who said I think I deserve any kind of love or understanding on a Serbia news site? I only said I am not surprised. There are certain things that I expect from a stereotypical Serb. Now not being surprised from the expectations I have from a stereotypical Serb does not equalize deserving love and understanding. That's quite jump and an mistaken conclusion you have arrived at.

Zoran - you omitted the first part of the relevant paragraph:
(Amer, 28 October 2010 23:47)
--
No Amer, I provided a link to the whole content and this is not the first time. I have done it numerous times before, sometime it went through other times it was censored.

The simple point is that the current Balkan people are generally indiginous to the region and not immigrants as some (on both sides) would have us believe. So it's time we started to get along with each other and love our neighbours, brothers and sisters as the bible teaches. Then we will experience true peace and life.

We call ourselves as Shqiptars...not Albanians...
=================

So then why doyou get upset when Serbs call you Shiptars? Spelling may be different but the pronounciation is the same. It's the same word. I have heard it pronounced by your very own, James Belushi.

So when I say it you get mad, but you say it and no big deal. Why?

Zoran - you omitted the first part of the relevant paragraph:

"Genetic studies conclude that Serbs are of predominantly Balkan genetics (indigenous to the region[20][21]) and have very small amount of generally considered "Slavic" (Predominant in West Slavic nations; R-M458, ranging from 0-12% in the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians[22]) genes showing that Slavs (White Serbs according to national myth/historical sources[5]) mixed with the Romanized Paleo-Balkan peoples of the conquered region (Serbian lands) and made the Slavic culture and language dominant in the ethnogenesis of the people. Thus, Serbs are mainly descendants of Paleo-Balkan peoples previously known as Dacians, Illyrians and Thracians.[13]"

The Paleo-Balkan peoples were there first, the Slavs mixed with them. Peoples moved around a lot in antiquity - there are genetic signs of the Greek soldiers that invaded Pakistan under Alexander in the population there (esp. the Pashtuns), as well as remembrances of the Balkan soldiers of the Roman Empire in southern England. Nobody's "pure" anything.

I don't think albanians would ever be offended by being called Shqiptar... it would be like calling a greek as a hellene.. i don't know yet of any case of albanians being offended when called as Shqiptars, i m from Tirana anyway, maybe in hot zones such as mitrovica, where basicly any thing said or done is a provocation, i.e. if i go to serbian part in mitrovica i would probably be missunderstood if i went around calling serbs as peaceful, friendly and kind people. Personally, i would behave more friendly to some foreigner if he or she called me Shqiptar instead of just Albanian...i would probably think that that particular foreigner is interested in albanians more than any usual foreigner and this way he or she would earn my respect.

I would like to thank the Serb that posted links about Edwin Jackues...since the foreign authors writing about albania are rare, it was good i ran across this title here in b92.. i read this book recently, and seems like E. Jackues is an admirer of the ALbanians, also , since reading the first pages i realised the author had been in contact with the events happening in Albania day after day while at the same time studying our history...also manny facts are quite accurate.

I don't think albanians would ever be offended by being called Shqiptar... it would be like calling a greek as a hellene.. i don't know yet of any case of albanians being offended when called as Shqiptars, i m from Tirana anyway, maybe in hot zones such as mitrovica, where basicly any thing said or done is a provocation, i.e. if i go to serbian part in mitrovica i would probably be missunderstood if i went around calling serbs as peaceful, friendly and kind people. Personally, i would behave more friendly to some foreigner if he or she called me Shqiptar instead of just Albanian...i would probably think that that particular foreigner is interested in albanians more than any usual foreigner and this way he or she would earn my respect.
(iliri, 1 November 2010 23:43)
=======================

Well I have actually read comments from Albanians who are offended at being called Shquiptars or Shiptars (spelled the Serbian way). The pronounciation is exactly the same.

I wouldn't care if a friend or an enemy called me Serbian for that is exactly my backround. The fact that it is spelled Serbian in English and Srbin in Serbian is irrlevant. It's only spelling and not meant to offend.

Maybe someone who actually feels offended can answer this question for me.

Sanjak for independence. Dont talk to the thieves and criminals but stand firm and fight for your legitimate right.

This time no genocide will be allowed, as international community has opened the eyes at last....

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...

"PRN", this is Albanian land. No one can give it to the Slavs, whether Bosniak or Serb. Are you really Albanian or is this some form of provocation?

Did the Illyrians get tired of being Illyrians, and decided to one day change their tribal name to Albanians? Does everyone see how stupid that sounds? Anyway, I am really getting tired of this Illyrian Albanian discussion here, it is totally of no importance.
(winston, 28 October 2010 17:36)

Open a book, instead of spreading bitterness and hate. It would do you good.
The Illyrians were comprised of many tribes. Illyria or Illyrians does not refer to only one tribe. So it is stupid and ignorant to think that the name changed from Illyria to Albania. That is an ignorant and uneducated assertion to make. Some of the Illyrian tribes were the Taulati, the Enkelei, the Dardans, Ardians, the Albani etc. So having said that what sounds really stupid is you believing that one day all of these different tribes sat down in the morning for coffee and decided to change their name. That is stupid and malicious on your part. But then you're a Serb so whatever. It was the outsiders that correlated us with the Albani tribe which lived in the vicinity of Albania's capital. It wasn't the tribes changing their names over coffee; as your uneducated hypothesis claims.

This is beyond surreal. Would anyone from Sandzak like to comment on the fact that they are Albanians who have forgotten - in less than a century - every last vestige of Albanian language, culture and identity.

Here's a though for you PRN: has it ever occurred to you that your selective delvings into history rather undermine any case for an independent Kosovo? If there's a historic Albanian claim on Novi Pazar, well, how can I break this to you gently - all those old Serbian churches and monasteries in Kosovo didn't build themselves, did they?

Whatever, it's a pity to see an important issue swamped in irrelevant pro/anti-Kosovo trolling. Somewhat more vigorous moderation might be a good idea.

We call ourselves as Shqiptars...not Albanians...also, ilyrian in albanian language means ''to be free'' many foreign scholars discredit this fact and say it is coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe not. But names such as 'roman', 'serb', 'greek', 'bosnian' etc have no meaning in albanian... But the well prooven fact is that ''Shqiptar'' name comes exclusively from Skanderbeg who used to call his fellow people and soldiers as ''sons of eagle'' hence Shqiptar...another fact is that Skanderbeg himself was prety romantic when concerning ancient history, and is quite logical considering that 15th century was a period in europe when elite was retrieving facts and origins from the past that church had been trying to skip...so, not by coincidence , Skanderbeg considered himself and his people as a descedants of epirotes and Phyrrus, when Skanderbeg was in the italian campaigns he even used to call albanians as either arbers or epirotes, as Phyrrus used to call his soldiers ''sons of eagle''... that is probaly why greeks are desperately trying to prove that Skanderbeg was either a serb or a greek ... Skanderbeg presence in history, is not as much disturbing for serbs as it is for greeks, who have been saying that epirotes were greeks and not illyrians....while if we look at the facts, epirotes in antiquity were considered by greeks as barbarians, and the language they spoke most probably was closer to illyrian...as a shprachbund ilyrain and thracheans were on the same group any way....shortly, the very fact that albanians have two main dialects, does not indicate that were are two different ethnicies as greek sponsered propaganda wouuld like to conclude, but indicates the fact that illyrians of dalmacia, who were less dense but the most scattered , were pushed south when slavian hordes emigrated in...to conclude roughly, Tosk albanians are most probably descedants of epirotes, geg albanians have more of a mountain way of life, it commonsense to suggest that our lands used to include what we call today as dynaric mountains where illyrians settled...also, toponyms mean nothing, Kosovo Albanians don't call themselves as kosovars, it is us the Albanians of ALbania that call them as Kosovars because for 50 years uncle Enver called them as ''Kosovars''in his speeches.. so that Tito would not reveal his litle dirty secret how E. Hoxha sold out Kosovo to the Yugoslavs...actually, if i were a serb, i would have built a huge statue of E.Hoxha and honor him as a hero for the damage he did to our nation... E.Hoxha damaged Albanian cause more than Milosevic...also the historical truths about illyrians were not invented by Hoxha, if it was for E.Hoxha , we would have been educated that we were southern slavs and that we speak a different language for some strange trivial reasons...but E Hoxha was not stupid enough to opose whole conclusions of Austrian and German scholars held during 19th century, you can fight political oponents by acusing them of revisionism and have them trialed, but you can not fight linguistics, scholars who study language , for the simple reason that the ALbanian language, is not subject to politcs, unlike serbian, macedonain ,bulgarian, croatian and other slavic languages ... it is funny to see slavs tell albanians how our 2500 identity was not prroven by scholars yet while their own 1300 year identity is still subject to debates and is not settled, wether serbs were croats or not (or vice versa),wether bulgarians are slavs or not etc

Albanians came to the Balkans from Sicily on boats, like the ones Castro loaded up with people he didn't want, and sent to the USA. Just look at Albanian last names, they all end in vowels, like Italian (Sicilian) surnames. They became sheep herders in the mountains of the Balkans, segregated themselves from anyone, and never through their history did they try and assimilate with their neighbors, except for selling out their religious beliefs to the Ottomans, and became Arnauts, or Ottomanized.This was done for favors from the Turks, and privileges that people loyal to their cultures and faits did not have. This Illyrian theory of Albanian roots, is something that Enver Hoxha came up with to give the Albanians s respectable history, nothing else. I have asked my grandparents, and great grandparents, and no one heard of any Illyrian Albanian connection. Seems like the entire Albanian history is one of assuming other cultures, and taking others' land. Serbs have many monasteries in KiM providing proof of their history there, what proof do the Albanians have? Did the Illyrians get tired of being Illyrians, and decided to one day change their tribal name to Albanians? Does everyone see how stupid that sounds? Anyway, I am really getting tired of this Illyrian Albanian discussion here, it is totally of no importance.

Jim what the hell man. Lay off politics for a while. We're dealing with an uninformed hypothesis by Winston, not with Kosova.

Winston the tribes did not vanish in thin air. Instead they mixed an matched. They mixed with each other and they mixed with others such as slavs, greeks, romans, romanians etc.. Again Albanians as they are known today got their name from one of the tribes (Albani) from outsiders. The Enkelei for example lived in the Ohrid area. Then you got the Taulanti living on the Adriatic. They still called themselves that for a period of time. Some of the tribes did vanish, some consolidated, some where invaded, some did indeed become one with those who invaded them. Then like now things were fluid politically. There were wars, invasions birder changes then as well. The same thing we know today. You don't hear people today calling Germans Prussians today either. So yes historically names have changed and disappeared, and some have remained. There is nothing out of the ordinary here.
Also if you had actually opened a book instead of speaking from your usual political bias you would know that the vast majority of research on Illyrians was not done by Albanians but by outsiders, italians, Austrians, Germans, even Slavs. So the usual Hoxha nonsense doesn't work here. Read Alexandar Stipevic if you want to know more on the issue. As a matter of fact if you truly want to know more, read about his involvement on this issue and Jugoslavia's view ,up to the arrival of Milosevic. There's plenty on the inner workings of Serb historians there. There is a lot to learn there about the attitudes of historians on such issue before and after things became politically messed up.

"Johny, just because people do not bye your view of Albanian history, does not mean they do not read."

-- I did not maintain the opposite. However it easy to spot an uneducated hypothesis of a person who knows nothing about the issue but the usual political bumper stickers as opposed to someone who doesn't agree but has put time and effort on the issue.

"By your statement, you are implying that you are more educated than others. You are not."

-- Not at all. By my statement I am simply implying that Winston's knowledge and thus hypothesis on this issue, is total nonsense and based on biased petty politics rather than historical knowledge. He can be very educated indeed. His hypothesis is ignorant. That is all I am saying.

"Maybe the books you have read are Albanian, and are skewed? I have read quite a few works on the history of the Balkans, and it is suggested by historians that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian tribes, as may be other ethnicities there, but without total certainty. "

-- If you had read my post you would have noticed that I did not talk about certainty. As a matter of fact this is more about how naive Winston's claim, that all the Illyrian tribes would have to have changed their names to Albania in an instant and simultaneous fashion for Albanians to be in any way related to Illyrians. This is an uneducated assumption that fails scientific and historical facts. There does not need to be a massive change of any tribe to be related to descendants. That is the whole point.

"Do you not believe that people are entitled to their beliefs."

-- Sure they are. They are not allowed to be entitled to their own facts. The fact is that there does not need to be a massive instantaneous and simultaneous change in the name of ancient tribes for them to be related with their descendant. This is a fact; not opinion. Winston on the other hand makes up uneducated hypotheses and tries to pass them as fact.

"One more question, why do you think you deserve any kind of love and understanding on a Serbian news site? What have Albanians, historically done, to deserve love and understanding from Serbs?"

-- Who said I think I deserve any kind of love or understanding on a Serbia news site? I only said I am not surprised. There are certain things that I expect from a stereotypical Serb. Now not being surprised from the expectations I have from a stereotypical Serb does not equalize deserving love and understanding. That's quite jump and an mistaken conclusion you have arrived at.

@PRN

If you are like that
then ill tell you this:
The whole of Albania Belongs to Serbia!
Why:
Look up Serbian empire and you will see how big Serbia then was.
Serbs also lived in Drac and in Skadar so I will say those city's to Serbia.
In the 15th Century Kosovo was 98% Serbian
Because many Serbs left and /or assimilated or were forced out today we have a 90% Albanian Kosovo.
But if kosovo was 98% Serbian 500 years ago to who belongs it then? make an educated guess!

Flamur,

I talked to PRN and at first his answer was, he is ready to defend Albanian land even in the outer space. But I have doubts about his Albanism being that serious - he secretly admitted, that only half of moons rotating around Jupiter were originally Albanian. So you better watch out and try to influence him into the right direction: the entire universe we can observe was, is and always will be Albanian.

Well...the thing is that serbs and slavs are not indigineous to the balkans... only albanians and greeks are ...slavs came after 7th century...

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...
(PRN, 28 October 2010 14:22)


you albanians should be in comedy because albania is not albanian lands. it was serbian and greek as the world knows it and right now 35% of albania is none albanians.

Council of Europe: Albania Is A Multiethnic State


http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/AlbaniaMultiethnic.html

and you think sandzak is albanian lands lol. you must be joking and the population of the area is now 50-50 and no albanians anywhere. just like in the preshovo valley you albanians are only a majority in 1 town and that's it. and yes the history is repeating because you are not balkan peoples and are moving out . so you keep dreaming and thinking the moon is albania because nothing is, you were wanderers like the gypsies in history and then you converted to turkish muslim so the greeks want their lands back from albania which is in the works right now and now they say slavic Macedonians want their part back which is part of macedonia and not albania

http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/parts.htm

so maybe you should worry about what's going on in your country and not someone else's, oh wait you dont have a country you just try to steal other peoles lands but karma is hurting you no one else.

That is how people like PRN and Zukorlic think. They think that if you go to a place owned by somebody else, then all you have to do is populate the place and in a little time, all of a sudden, it now belongs to you.

I wished things worked like that other places. Then if I see a nice mansion that I like, I would just have to move in and in a little time, I can claim ownership of that house. Good old Kosovo Albanian steal estate, oops, I mean real estate. LOL.

Well...the thing is that serbs and slavs are not indigineous to the balkans... only albanians and greeks are ...slavs came after 7th century...
(iliri)
-
The Albanians came yesterday c'mon man, everyone knows this!

the entire universe we can observe was, is and always will be Albanian.
(The true nature of the universe, 28 October 2010 14:15)
--
Yes, but when I read my history books going back to the creation of the universe they were more commonly known as Alb-aliens back then but somehow that mutated into Albanians here on earth. PRN, what do your history books say? Can you confirm?

To expand upon Dave's point - PRN you do realise that if you use the beginning of the 20th century as a marker for Sandzak / Presevo then it should be applied to Kosovo also. In that period it thought by many academics that neither Serbs nor Albanians had a clear majority in Kosovo. And only a few years before the turn of that century, the Ottoman invasion caused the death or cleansing of hundreds of over 100,000 Kosovo Serbs, tipping the balance in favour of Kosovo Albanians.

Its easy to read history from one perspective or the other starting from a 'suitable' date, but if one decides on an arbitrary date to stake a claim, it has to apply to everything and not just one event.

Loved the Armija BiH flag hanging outside. Nice touch. Saw it waving at Eurosong competition in Belgrade Arena a couple years ago. But no one humiliates the Serbian nation as well as they do to themselves. Svaka ti cast.

I will never understand some fellow ethnic Albanians with their "love" for Sandzak.

Guys, you seriously want an area full with fundamentalistic muslims? Let Serbs deal with that problem. Many of them are anyway Serbs with muslim faith. They have nothing to do with the Albanian people, even if they were part of the Valjat of Kosovo.

Prove it, Johny. You can't. Where did all these other tribes go then. Only the Albanis survived, and became today's Albanians? Did the Albanis kill all the other tribes and claim their land? It's all Hoxha's BS, and Albanians bought it. BTW, can you have a conversation without trying to degrade someone, because of their ethnicity? I don't think that Albanians are known for their brains.

"Sanjak for independence. Dont talk to the thieves and criminals but stand firm and fight for your legitimate right.

This time no genocide will be allowed, as international community has opened the eyes at last...." (PRN)

-- Oh shut up already.

"But history is slwoly turing back." (PRN)

The current ethnic composition of Sandzak. I can see it's just swimming in Albanian blue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Raska02i03.png

The connection between Albanians and Illyrians is in no way proven, there are enough researchers that dispute that claim.

What is more likely, is that the Albanians got the name Albanoi in the same way they got the name Kosovars. They likely moved into the land of the Albanoi people, and eventually decided that they would take it for there own and call theirselves by the name of the land they stole.

"But if kosovo was 98% Serbian 500 years ago to who belongs it then? make an educated guess!
(Stevie, 29 October 2010 16:35) "

500 years ago? The Turks, wasn't it? But 1000 years ago? 2000 years ago? The Bronze Age? The Mesolithic? Who determines the date of "original ownership", anyway?

Open a book, instead of spreading bitterness and hate. It would do you good.
The Illyrians were comprised of many tribes. Illyria or Illyrians does not refer to only one tribe. So it is stupid and ignorant to think that the name changed from Illyria to Albania. That is an ignorant and uneducated assertion to make. Some of the Illyrian tribes were the Taulati, the Enkelei, the Dardans, Ardians, the Albani etc. So having said that what sounds really stupid is you believing that one day all of these different tribes sat down in the morning for coffee and decided to change their name. That is stupid and malicious on your part. But then you're a Serb so whatever. It was the outsiders that correlated us with the Albani tribe which lived in the vicinity of Albania's capital. It wasn't the tribes changing their names over coffee; as your uneducated hypothesis claims.
(johny, 28 October 2010 18:21)


sorry to tell you maybe you should open a book because kosovo is Serbian lands and you are not illyrians like you claim here is something for everyone to read and learn history.

The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present By Edwin E. Jacques

http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=where+did+albanians+originate+from&source=bl&ots=YIHORjjNGG&sig=SeNwVonegEJZUyfsG9bBVZ_D2cE&hl=en&ei=ogUSSujYA6XcMPy3tPYM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

John Wilkes proves albanians are not illyrians?


http://books.google.com/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=where+did+albanians+originate+from&source=bl&ots=YIHORjjNGG&sig=SeNwVonegEJZUyfsG9bBVZ_D2cE&hl=en&ei=ogUSSujYA6XcMPy3tPYM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7


and even albanian historians say you are not illyrian and skanderbeg was part serbian and part greek-slavic so the truth prevails and not fantasy albanian stories you only like to believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA

http://serbiannationalist.wordpress.com/2007/02/19/skenderbeg-a-serb/

so enjoy world facts and not yours.so it turns out you have a serbian -greek-slavic statue called skanderbeg in the middle of Tirane and albania is not even albanian lands but also Serbian-Greek lands

Here are just a few Albanian researchers that dispute the Illyrian claim.

Kaplan Resuli
Adrian Qosi
Fatos Lubonja
Adrian Vebiu

Not to mention all the other researchers who are not Albanian that have said the same thing.

Actually, look at this genetic map. It showns Albanians have more in common with Russians than Serbian's do. ROFL!

Check http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png

Flamur,

We all know that Novi Pazar and the area beyond Kragojevac was Albanian until late 18th century. Then later the disbalance changed intentionally through criminalizing the innocent Albanians and changing the balance of the population in the favour of the new occupier. But history is slwoly turing back.

Flamur, it is better for Bosnians to get rid of Serbs first and then they will inevitably return to Albanian roots...Afer all they are all Albanians but speak Bosnian (or alinated towards Bosnia)

Novi Pazar was Albanian (99% of population) until 1911. All photos/videos of Novi Pazar befoer 1911 show Albanians with their traditional clothing...browse in youtube...Novi Pazar in 1904 and reflect the recent past...
(PRN)
-
Where do you get your information from?

Care to share?

Why not wait for the population geneticists to sort out who was where, when? Arguments are more fun when there are actual data to play with.

Johny, just because people do not bye your view of Albanian history, does not mean they do not read. By your statement, you are implying that you are more educated than others. You are not. Maybe the books you have read are Albanian, and are skewed? I have read quite a few works on the history of the Balkans, and it is suggested by historians that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian tribes, as may be other ethnicities there, but without total certainty. Do you not believe that people are entitled to their beliefs. One more question, why do you think you deserve any kind of love and understanding on a Serbian news site? What have Albanians, historically done, to deserve love and understanding from Serbs?

Why not wait for the population geneticists to sort out who was where, when? Arguments are more fun when there are actual data to play with.
(Amer, 28 October 2010 19:50)
--
Well, they already have but will you accept the results?

Here is an extract.

"Thus, Serbs are mainly descendants of Paleo-Balkan peoples previously known as Dacians, Illyrians and Thracians."

Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Serbs and go to Genetics.

-- Oh shut up already.
(Mike, 28 October 2010 19:48)
--
I see it's working. PRN is a weapon against common sense.

We call ourselves as Shqiptars...not Albanians...
=================

So then why doyou get upset when Serbs call you Shiptars? Spelling may be different but the pronounciation is the same. It's the same word. I have heard it pronounced by your very own, James Belushi.

So when I say it you get mad, but you say it and no big deal. Why?

I don't think albanians would ever be offended by being called Shqiptar... it would be like calling a greek as a hellene.. i don't know yet of any case of albanians being offended when called as Shqiptars, i m from Tirana anyway, maybe in hot zones such as mitrovica, where basicly any thing said or done is a provocation, i.e. if i go to serbian part in mitrovica i would probably be missunderstood if i went around calling serbs as peaceful, friendly and kind people. Personally, i would behave more friendly to some foreigner if he or she called me Shqiptar instead of just Albanian...i would probably think that that particular foreigner is interested in albanians more than any usual foreigner and this way he or she would earn my respect.
(iliri, 1 November 2010 23:43)
=======================

Well I have actually read comments from Albanians who are offended at being called Shquiptars or Shiptars (spelled the Serbian way). The pronounciation is exactly the same.

I wouldn't care if a friend or an enemy called me Serbian for that is exactly my backround. The fact that it is spelled Serbian in English and Srbin in Serbian is irrlevant. It's only spelling and not meant to offend.

Maybe someone who actually feels offended can answer this question for me.

Zoran - you omitted the first part of the relevant paragraph:

"Genetic studies conclude that Serbs are of predominantly Balkan genetics (indigenous to the region[20][21]) and have very small amount of generally considered "Slavic" (Predominant in West Slavic nations; R-M458, ranging from 0-12% in the Serbs, Albanians, Macedonians, Greeks and Bulgarians[22]) genes showing that Slavs (White Serbs according to national myth/historical sources[5]) mixed with the Romanized Paleo-Balkan peoples of the conquered region (Serbian lands) and made the Slavic culture and language dominant in the ethnogenesis of the people. Thus, Serbs are mainly descendants of Paleo-Balkan peoples previously known as Dacians, Illyrians and Thracians.[13]"

The Paleo-Balkan peoples were there first, the Slavs mixed with them. Peoples moved around a lot in antiquity - there are genetic signs of the Greek soldiers that invaded Pakistan under Alexander in the population there (esp. the Pashtuns), as well as remembrances of the Balkan soldiers of the Roman Empire in southern England. Nobody's "pure" anything.

Very funny thread of comments I have to admit. The article is about eviction of the islamic faculty, whereas the comments are about albanians and illyrians and who came first the serbian chicken or the albanian egg. it takes just a PRN and a winston to tango.

Zoran - you omitted the first part of the relevant paragraph:
(Amer, 28 October 2010 23:47)
--
No Amer, I provided a link to the whole content and this is not the first time. I have done it numerous times before, sometime it went through other times it was censored.

The simple point is that the current Balkan people are generally indiginous to the region and not immigrants as some (on both sides) would have us believe. So it's time we started to get along with each other and love our neighbours, brothers and sisters as the bible teaches. Then we will experience true peace and life.

"The simple point is that the current Balkan people are generally indiginous to the region and not immigrants as some (on both sides) would have us believe. So it's time we started to get along with each other and love our neighbours, brothers and sisters as the bible teaches. Then we will experience true peace and life.
(Zoran, 29 October 2010 10:31) "

The "Balkan people" are a varied mixture, as are most peoples in Europe. And you're right, this should not be a cause of present-day animosity. Eventually the history of the peopling of the peninsula will be studied in detail, as the history of the British Isles is, where they can now detect the nearly simultaneous arrival of different groups of the same ethnicity at different points along the coast. It's a relief to have some new tools available to use in the Balkans and to be able to get away from arguments based on languages that the Romans never saw fit to record. If DNA evidence could be used to identify the origin of the Etruscans (since nobody believed Herodotus' version), it can be used to unravel the history of the Balkans, and people can start to say "so what, we're all here now and have to live together." Until that happens, hoping that everybody will simply ignore the matter and start treating each other as long-lost brothers is probably excessively optimistic. "The truth shall make you free," right?

I don't think albanians would ever be offended by being called Shqiptar... it would be like calling a greek as a hellene.. i don't know yet of any case of albanians being offended when called as Shqiptars, i m from Tirana anyway, maybe in hot zones such as mitrovica, where basicly any thing said or done is a provocation, i.e. if i go to serbian part in mitrovica i would probably be missunderstood if i went around calling serbs as peaceful, friendly and kind people. Personally, i would behave more friendly to some foreigner if he or she called me Shqiptar instead of just Albanian...i would probably think that that particular foreigner is interested in albanians more than any usual foreigner and this way he or she would earn my respect.

I would like to thank the Serb that posted links about Edwin Jackues...since the foreign authors writing about albania are rare, it was good i ran across this title here in b92.. i read this book recently, and seems like E. Jackues is an admirer of the ALbanians, also , since reading the first pages i realised the author had been in contact with the events happening in Albania day after day while at the same time studying our history...also manny facts are quite accurate.