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Tuesday, 26.10.2010.

15:17

Russian FM: Base Kosovo dialogue on 1244

Russian FM Sergei Lavrov says that the future dialogue between Belgrade and Priština should be based on UN Security Council Resolution 1244.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

The Secretary General was delegated by the Security Council through resolution 1244 to decide when the interim period was over. If the Secretary General did something that went beyond its power delegated by the Security Council, the Security Council would have immediately corrected that situation. But it didn’t because the Secretary General acted within the powers delegated to it by the Security Council. The Security Council said nowhere in resolution 1244 that it was reserving for itself the right to declare through a second resolution when the interim period was over.


What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

“Highest standard”… since when being a certified war criminal is a high standard ?

It’s precisely declarations like this which makes independence the only acceptable solution for Albanians. How can they live in the same state with people who consider certified crimes against Albanians as “high standard”. That’s just an invitation to apply those same “high standards” if Kosovo is again under Serbia.


As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

I don’t remember such “shock”; do you have any reference which shows this global “shock” ?


NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Dude you are trying to convince us how the Serbian Army was excellent in doing X, Y or Z…. Let’s assume you are correct. It does not matter; what matters is the result. At the end the Serbian army had to do what the other side wanted – i.e. withdraw from Kosovo. So, most likely, the Serbian army was good at the things which did not matter.


Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

And Milosevic failed with his strategy


A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

NATO was not there to annihilate Serbia, but to force it to withdraw from Kosovo, as it did. Assuming that Pavkovic was much smarter, he probably was smarter on things that did not matter, because the result was the “stupid” Clark dictated to the “smart” Pavkovic to withdraw from Kosovo. If stupid people are able to achieve their goals and smart people aren’t, I’d love to be “stupid”.


NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens;
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Well, in a war people are sometime killed (btw that’s not a crime; it’s the nature of war). That’s why before being involved in a war a state has to consider whether there are alternative solutions.


the Serbian army lost less than 200.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

So NATO had a decisive victory (probably the most decisive in history) by losing no one (vs. Serbia’s 200) and fully achieving its objective of getting the Serbian army out of Kosovo.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?
(Peggy, 30 October 2010 05:13)

Peggy, what you are asking is impossible; it's obvious you don't understand much on legal arguments...

Let me introduce some Law 101… No state has ever been prosecuted of war crimes. The reason is simple: a war crime involves individual criminal responsibility. Only a natural person (a human being) can be prosecuted for a war crime. A legal person (for example a state) cannot be prosecuted for war crimes.

So the answer to your question is never because US is not a natural person.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
===…==

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.
(Peggy, 31 October 2010 02:13)

We were discussing about Kosovo, and it doesn’t matter for the legality of Kosovo’s independence…

But if you want to discuss about US, of course it matters for US, because the American taxpayer which is the largest contributor to the UN budget is wasting money for paying millions of dollars per year for nothing (or actually for just receiving 4 reports/year).

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)
-------------------

Arguing without knowledge is a sign of a fool but he keeps coming back day after day to entertain us.
Must admit, at times he frustrates me for a second and then I realize how silly he sounds and even feel pity for him.

I wonder if he is actually EA or Roberto writing under another name.

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johny

pre 13 godina

"The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia. "

-- Not true. If that was the case ICJ would have decided against it. 1244 does not specify anything after the interim period. You can read it as many times as you want.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.
(johny, 28 October 2010 18:47)

Again, you need to read the 1244 resolution. It say's nothing about independance but substantial autonomy.

The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia.

The ICJ ruling does not solidify independance whatsoever. It only avoided the real issue and covered it with allowing the "declaration of indpendance to be legal" but avoiding the real question over the legality of the seperation of Kosovo from the Repubic if Serbia and the former Yugoslavia.

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

"You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all. "

Your don't show anything in your writing about any knowledge of military doctrine, but a political bias and nationalist affinity Albanians ignoring the true facts on the ground.

For your information, Milosevic was not a nationalist, in fact, he probably liked Albanians better than Serbs!

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" (JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

The Serbian Generals would be that stupid to withdraw with a highway to death scenario.

What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.

As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.

How could it be otherwise highway to death?

NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.

Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.

A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.

NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens; the Serbian army lost less than 200.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
================

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.
(icj1, 29 October 2010 01:48)
================

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach -
(Bob, 29 October 2010 03:45)

I assume you are not referring to Kosovo’s UDI, because that was not a breach of 1244.

If you are referring to Kosovo’s UDI, you may want to update yourself with the latest developments because the latest news you’ve read on the matter appear to be from, at least, 4 months ago.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Your first error in judgement is that you assumed I was Albanian. Pre 1999 I did not know what an Albanian or a Serbian was, I was familiar with Yugoslavia from studies in school. My first real exposure to the mess was in 2006 when I took a position in Kosovo. My initial opinion was that the best course would be to find a way to reintegrate Kosovo with Serbia. It did not take long to be convinced that this was not even a remote possibility.
The 2nd is your proof on the ICJ (your children who were raised with your same biases) Even if they are lawyers (with a Serbian background) their view on the judges at the ICJ cannot be given credence. The lawyers at the Hague may have the same opinion of your children if they were to know them. Most lawyers do not give credence to other lawyers, and most people on the losing side of a judgement claim the court was corrupt, inept, prejudiced or erroneous. What differentiates your claims from those. I do not think you posted those opinions prior to being on the losing side.
My reply to you was a tongue in cheek response to your many comments with preposterous claims.
One such is that NATO is only in Kosovo for the US base Bondsteel. Shows you have never visited Bondsteel nor know anything of what is there.
Such as the fact that for the first few years the roads inside the base were not paved because it was not meant to be permanent nor give that illusion. They were only paved because it was cheaper than replacing the gravel constantly. It only has landing room for a handful of helicoptors no landing strip for planes. It is not the grand Emerald City that most local Albanians and Serbians that cannot pass through the gates believe it is.
The location is no more advantageous than many the US could have chosen without controversy in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, etc.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Peggy, B92 chose not to allow my post with links to explain the military strategy and historical timelines of the Kosovo Air Campaign. So I'll just state that you might want to do a little research if the topic interests you. But one thing is sure, the Serbian Army in Kosovo, through military and diplomatic means, was "pacified"

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sj

pre 13 godina

I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.

The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.
(pss, 28 October 2010 14:52)

I am not a political adviser nor have I ever been in that position. The vast number of political advisers are relatively stupid party hacks who don’t know the difference between a glass of water and the ocean. I am not personally privy to any state secrets but I do know people that have of information of interest – they are not STATE SECRETS as you seem to believe. I keep in contact with people that I Iike and have in the past worked with and a number of these people were heads of government departments – they have contacts and so on.
Also, university researchers have access to a lot of this stuff. Yes certain information about the Stealth aircraft is still not available to the public even today.
The problem with Albanians is you make a statement and the reply is not to your taste so “I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information”.
The ICJ ruling is the most ludicrous piece judicial decision making in the history of law. I was like many other Serbs believing that the ICJ was an actual court of law – silly me. I have children who are lawyers, but it was not until after the decision was handed down that I questioned them about the ICJ. One of their friends from Australia said “it’s a BS organization staffed by political drop outs that could not find decent work anywhere else” He even stated that “we had one on that ICJ – John Dowd – a third rate politician from New South Wales.
The same propaganda is recycled over and over again from the Vietnam war days to today.

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 14:48)

Yes you are right about the Roma, but the Albanians are very close to that figure too – who works in Kosovo except the politicians and their police? You would be lucky to have an employment rate of 20% if that. Why are hundreds trying to leave Kosovo if the prospects are that good?
I am curious what rank did you hold?

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet. The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 15:51)
The stealth aircraft was an expensive piece of junk and after the first one was shot down they only used the others as backdrops to Clinton’s press conferences.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Totally correct. That’s why General Clarke did not get his victory parade in NY. William Cohen was shocked to see the amount of completely intact military hard wear leaving Kosovo. He was furious at being told lies by the good general and Cohen terminated Clarke’s appointment as head of NATO 3 months earlier than was intended.

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Bob

pre 13 godina

If 1244 does not apply, then Serbia has the right to invade and no one has the right to stop them. Kosovo is a Serbian province and it is only by might and 1244 that the situation is any different.

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach - then the future is left open for Serbia to reoccupy. It is within the power of Serbia to declare the terms of 1244 breached and therefore the whole thing invalidated. Who knows what the future actually holds. Even the politics can change. Ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo has been very effective, but the world is still not in touch with what has really happened there from long before Milosevic. I do not want to see an independent country in Kosovo - and neither do the Albanians. They want to join with Albania and (if the west don't stop them) they will.

The mistake Serbia made was not so much the use of force - that was quite legal. That's why NATO interventions in Bosnia came so slowly. What was illegal and sparked the interventions was the way it was done. In particular, the paramilitaries in Bosnia did no good for Serbia's reputation and were in flagrant breach of international law. However, mistake or no mistake, Kosovo is a Serbian province. 1244 only wants autonomy and is most definitely written in terms that acknowledge the territorial integrity.

What also amazes me, is that the west supported a stated policy of making Kosovo a 'clean' Albanian territory - ethnic cleansing of Serbs was the Albanian aim.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.
(peggy, 28 October 2010 22:15)


Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.

That's because Kosovo's Declaration of Independence did not violate 1244. So, for all it matters, 1244 can continue for other 5,000,0000,000 years (i.e. until when science says the sun will run out of hydrogen) if the UNSC so wishes. That does not have any impact on Kosovo's Declaration of Independence.

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ZMAJ

pre 13 godina

JohnnyC,

Reading your comments very carefully I must say that there are tons of logic wasted.. In a case of any other fictive subject rather than my people you'd be totally right. But, you see.., we're Serbs and not willing to follow the orders..,traditionally. We're too little to leave any powers to prevail, we're too small to loose anything but what's most important is that we're too stupid to be loyal slaves.., we will always get rif of our "try to be" owners, sooner or later.. Forget about your military "doctrine", your money and power, your f-117 and all the arogance of your worlds.. Here you have to deal with a few million real Serbs and your destiny is already written and your cowards pilots wrote the biggest part of it. You dug your own grave in Serbia as any other empire before. Inspite clever, you waste your time and logic on our Enigma.. We will dominate over our properties until we exist and your countries and militaries can always surrender at this point, earlier- better.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

You may not need a court considering your deep knowledge of international law, but I need it, because whatever you say, you are not an impartial judge or a court of law. So, if no international court has decided that the US broke the rules, I can't say with certainty that the US broke the rules. I can express my opinion, but that just remains my opinion without any authoritative value.


You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

That is wrong…

It depends; sometimes US (as other states) has to agree on a case-by-case basis about the ICJ's jurisdiction. In some cases US is not exempt from the ICJ jurisdiction (see for example Mexico vs. US in 2003). And the ICJ has ruled in the past against US (for example Nicaragua vs. US in 1984) and it can do again in the future if US breaks the rules.


If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.

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peggy

pre 13 godina

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.
==================

and we all know where the A plan went. Yep, straight to the rubbish bin.

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.

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johny

pre 13 godina

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 22:21)

That is definitely not the case Peggy. You know it very well but your intentions are malicious. If you were alive and/or born prior to only a couple of years ago you would know the following.

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.

Also 1244 cannot actually be replaced. Another resolution can come to fruition which makes 1244 provisions invalid, but there is no such thing as actual replacement. 1244 will be there and will be referred in some ICJ case in the future for reference. Semantics but we need to clear things up.

So in the end, the provisions of 1244, or better yet some of those provisions are invalid because UN secretary general through Ahtiari made them invalid when it was decided that the interim period is over. Meaning that Yugoslavia's borders are no longer guaranteed because it was decided that the interim period was over. That provision is already non-existent anymore. So for that there is no need for a new resolution. Other provisions of 1244 are still active. However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.

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KU

pre 13 godina

"In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life. "
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Thinking about what those soldiers of JNA were likely thinking on June 10 and 11 and 12 of 1999, I agree with you. There is great pride to be found in the simple fact of having remained alive.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

sj,

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet.

The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.

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pss

pre 13 godina

(sj, 28 October 2010 00:09
I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.
The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Hi sj,

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.

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pss

pre 13 godina

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

There is that Serbian version of resolution 1244 again, I really need to get a copy of it. Of course the original version never "guarantees" the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.
It does reaffirm a commitment to it according to the Helsinki Final Act. Which no signing country will claim Yugoslavia territory as their own by force or other means. It does not approach the question of secession but does forbid a country such as Albanian from annexing any part like Kosovo.
The phrase is not unique to res 1244 but is pretty much standard to most resolutions by the UNSC.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

“The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.”

How would you know this fact when even 12 years later this stuff is still classified top secret? Anyother Wikipeadia source or has the US military let you in to their confidence? Another Albanian that does not know the difference between his elbow and backside. When the argument does not suit then it back to basics.
Here is my question again to you Albos – As the US is you ally how many factories have they established in Kosovo to soak up that 97% unemployment ??????

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?
Eyes Wide Open.
(AdamNYC, 28 October 2010 12:27)
Well laughing boy, your Albos are coming to the talking table and status is on the cards. Oh, you can keep the EU if you like – perhaps they will let your lot join, ha, ha,. Yeah in a million years. They need workers not lay abouts on social security – ask Angela Merkel what she thinks about your lot.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

should be, could be, want to be

no.

serbia had absolute and ample opportunity to challenge kosovo's independence and in particular the icj's ruling in the UN.

it did not.

yes, russia may be a tad miffed at serbias capitulation at the un, but that is no reason for russia to give serbia a greenlight in its inevitable hobbling of the dialogue they jointly authored and put forth themselves with imagined "should be's"


Remember that as far as kosovo was concerned, dialogue was always an open door.

Kosovo is not beholden to this joint resolution... it is something serbia willingly created with the EU in RESPONSE to the icj decision.

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?

Eyes Wide Open.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.
================

You call others confused but you are delusional.

Why didn't they use ground troops?
You see how well they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Surely they want another "success" in the Balkans?

If they used ground troops I am certain it would've escalated. Others would've bought into it and NATO simply could not afford that.
You don't win anything with air power only. You have to use ground troops and NATO will NOT do that.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.
==================

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen. You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.

If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all.

The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.

As to air defenses. Most of them that survived were turned off. Basic military doctrine. If I blow it up, its useless to you. If you turn it off to keep it from being blown up, its still useless to you.

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" as NATO had clear air superiority over Kosovo. As to their effectiveness, most of the assets were either hidden in the tunnels by the airport or or in the tunnels in the middle of Pristina where they were surrounded by the civilian population. Same effect. You hide it to keep it from being destroyed, its still useless to you.

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.

Quibble all you want and pout while you claim victory, the result is in the streets of Pristina every single day. There are no Serbian tanks, planes, police, or other authority running Kosovo.

You can argue the right or wrong all day, but bottom line is that the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo and NATO moved in and is still there.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

What about the certified forcible transfer of civilians committed by Pavkovic ? or you forgot about it ?


While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.


In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I don’t see the “reluctantly” part since Kosovo’s independence did not go against the “guarantee of the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia”. So, I’m not sure why US had to be reluctant. Indeed, US voted to approve the resolution and Serbia pleaded the Council members to not approve it (or, at least, this is what the transcript of the UNSC meeting shows). US fully respected that agreement (ie 1244) and it did not violate it.

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sj

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)
My feet are well placed on the ground and what I have stated here is correct. You see I have a relation that was on General Pavkovic’s staff during the war so you see I don’t have to make these things up. The problem most Albos living in the US is watching too much TV and Hollywood has brainwashed you – there is no George Segal or Chuck Norris in the US military.
Look at the US record in Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO bombed Serbian civilian sites because it was not having any effect on the Serb military in Kosovo.
Here is another one for you – the US lost 1200 during the street to street fighting in Falluja, Iraq- - it was the bloodiest battle in Iraq.
The so called official record is 1300 insurgents while something of about 100 US – greatest load of crap ever.


The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.
(pss, 27 October 2010 15:23)
Who contributing to this forum has lived through the Vietnam war apart from me? I have worked in Government for 36 years and now I work for myself in Asia. I have made many contacts throughout those years in government. To you, the names of department heads printed in newspapers are just that but to me I now most of them personally.
“The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths” This would be the greatest piece of BS ever. Have you not learnt one thing from WikiLeaks publication last week of secret docos that the US Government tells huge lies to its people – Gee do you live under a rock and have no eyes in your head? This is not to be insulting but pure frustration on my part! Wake up!
US soldiers killed in action were collected and placed in semi trailers which had refrigeration faculties and were driven either to the Macedonian or Greek border and then handed over to NATO people – now do you understand? Most were killed with the shooting down of helicopters carrying Special Forces. When that did not work they then changed tactics and started bombing Serb civilian targets.
The US is notorious for its incompetence regarding bombing of targets – during WW2 it was never allowed to bomb during the night – that was left to the British. For example if the US wanted to bomb say Washington then I would suggest you move out of Chicago. Ask the Brits about the recent conflicts in Iraq and how many times the US bombed their own side.
When bodies were taken back to the US relatives were told that they were killed during maneuvers or they would have made up some other story. Having the US media under control who would print otherwise???????

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Leo

pre 13 godina

Read this carefully Serbs and Albanians. Obama is not lifting a finger to help out Albanians or Bosniaks. The Russians don't have a worry from Obama. Clinton's little tour was a farewell tour. The Americans will be busy enough fighting their own ethnic wars to worry about yours and Uncle Sam's next invasions will be Mexico, Venezuela and Cuba(after Fidel dies). Most Americans also increasingly hate Moslems. The 90s are a long time ago.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

# Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.
(pss, 27 October 2010 05:23)
=================

And Serbia wants Russia to speak for them, so what on earth was the point of your original post?

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!
(Vev, 27 October 2010 17:52)
===================

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)

The so called Stealth Bomber did come crashing down to earth, it could not be hidden from the public or CNN. Its nice to know that Russia has long ago neutralized the effectiveness of this so called radarless technology.

JNA outdated defense technology kept the NATO blames thousands of miles above in the sky.

NATO resorted to bombing civilian sites which did not descriminate between Albanian or Serbian. The KLA was no where to be found as they were soundly defeated by the Serbian army amid all the bombs.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.

While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.

Preporučujem 25 Ne preporučujem 4
Vev

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!

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pss

pre 13 godina

An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.
(sj, 27 October 2010 13:23)
Seriously dude where do you get all your information for your many postings??
The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.

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Nikulla

pre 13 godina

Russians are desperately trying to sound important in the international scene, though they know that they are not any-longer key-player, so do our Serbian friends. It will be the US who spins the table here.

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sj

pre 13 godina

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!
(massimo, 27 October 2010 10:17)

I suppose that you are aware that Chechnya has lost thousands in that war plus the many more hundreds killed or have disappeared due to the current Moscow supported leadership? The actual toll is somewhere 100 000 +. Yeah, the Bosniaks should thank God that it’s not like Chechnya.
Serbian soldiers are a thousand times better than that incompetent lot called the US – you should read up on the dozen or so Apache helicopters downed in Albania during the Kosovo war or the fact that they had to take semi-trailers full of US soldiers killed in Special operations to the Greek border.
An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.

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massimo

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!

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sj

pre 13 godina

I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.
(Mirel from Albania, 26 October 2010 21:1

Leave politics to people that know what they are talking about.

Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41)

Russia is that huge “gorilla sitting in the lounge room” that everyone refuses to admit it’s there. Don’t worry you have the United States of Windbags to protect you – you know the victors of Iraq and Afghanistan or should I say the bankrupts of the western world.

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)

Unfortunately for you guys UNSCR 1244 is relevant and these negotiations are being held under those auspices and not some strange ICJ ruling on “do you think it’s illegal to say your independent?” with an answer “actually the act of declaring is not illegal”. Why not go an inch further and say the Kosovo declaration was legal? Hmm?
Like it or not status is definitely on the table. Talks on “technical” issues are only warm up sessions before the main more difficult issues.
The reason why Albos hate the Russians is because they can throw the spanner into the works and you can smell the fear.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.

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Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?
(winston, 26 October 2010 17:22)

If Belgrade dares bring "status" to the negotiating table it will just be ignored, who is going to force Pristina to negotiate on status? No-one! So much for you long awaited status talks.

Pristina will not be forced to negotiate on issues that it doesn't want to discuss and the same applies to Belgrade.

Also the last I heard, Kosovo's declaration of independence was in line with UNSCR 1244. Also you can cry about the ICJ not ruling on Kosovo's actual independence but it would help if Serbia had actually asked the ICJ that question. Now you're all saying "Where is the answer to the question we never asked?"

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

@ Miri

No one really.
(Mendo, 26 October 2010 16:17)
=====================
Wrong Mendo,
Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?

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johny

pre 13 godina

As 1244 is still valid (thouhg the US tried to change it at least five times) any (!) dialogue should be based on 1244.
(Ron, 26 October 2010 18:16)

Of course and it will. ICJ only confirmed that since the declaration of independence is is accordance with 1244 then 1244 is still in force. Meaning not only we are independent despite of 1244 but we are independent because 1244. Any way you want it; we got it covered. ICJ made sure to clear things up just a little.

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Mirel from Albania

pre 13 godina

I think Russia and China should be the main countries that will be involve with Serbia-Kosova dialogue.Also,Spain,Venezuela,Brasil,Cuba and of course the superpower Slovakia will be involve too.
Albania side will be represented by Oliver Ivanovic because he is from Kosovo that carries a passaport that is recognisable by countries above.Thaci and Sejdiu can not be represent Kosova because they are not good enough for coutries mentioned above and they don't carry a serbian passaport.
1244?
No I think 1989 is the best solution for all countries above.
After all people of Kosova will elect Ivanovich as their chairman.Everyone will be happy!Bratislava will crack fireworks and Dzurinda will think what people to pick next in order to be every week in the news.Propably people of Catalonia will have the bad luck...
I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.

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Zoti

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans?
(winston, 26 October 2010)

Agreed. My problem is that you claim Kosova to be a US puppet but have no problem when Rusia speaks on your behalf. I feel like there's some sort of disconnect soemwhere.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Of course everything must be done according to resolution 1244. Kosovo for it's part it's the strongest supporter of 1244, declaring independence in accordance with 1244 and also committing to 1244 in both its declaration of independence and its consitution. No other other country has done as much as Kosovo to show the respect for 1244.

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highduke

pre 13 godina

@ pss - the Spetznaz arent training our forces for war with NATO bc KFOR is leaving voluntarily, they're training us for war against potential future Kurtist terrorists.

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JohnBoy

pre 13 godina

What dialogue? The kosovo issue will be resolved when the us and eu run out of credit - which will be within 2 years. And their foreclosure banker will be China.

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GjonFusha

pre 13 godina

Does anybody body knows why he has to mention that?
Everithing untill now has been based on that resolution. Even Serbia site asked IC if UDI is ok with that resolution and they hade their unser.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)
Sure, it is a masterplan for Russia to train Serbian forces to declare war on NATO and the UN. And I guess all the efforts of your govt to join the EU is just a cover, so no one will expect Serbia's big military invasion?
By the way, everything planned for talks is within the framework of 1244 so I don't know why his mentioning it is news.

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winston

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

UNSCR1244 is alive and well. Even the ICJ confirmed this.

If ethnic Albanians accept the decision of the ICJ and that declarations of independence are not covered by international law then they must also accept the whole ruling, which confirms the validity of UNSCR1244.

Preporučujem 37 Ne preporučujem 20
winston

pre 13 godina

Boy, the Russians must be as big a thorn in the Albanians' side, as the Serbs. But who cares what the Russians have to say, let's see what the diplomats from Karibati have to say. I am still laughing.

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lowe

pre 13 godina

"Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)"

Correction here. That UNGA resolution did not mention "technical negotiations" at all.

Specifically it stated "Welcomes the readiness of the EU to facilitate the process of dialogue between the parties. The process of dialogue by itself would be a factor of peace, security and stability in the region. This dialogue would be aimed to promote cooperation, make progress on the path towards the EU and improve people's lives.”

The way I see it, there are different ways to interpet this statement, depending on your political inclination.

I should also point out that the statement merely welcomes the EU's "readiness" to facilitate. But the EU is under no obligation to actually organize the dialogue if it changes its mind tomorrow. So one could even argue that it is an absurd resolution.

Preporučujem 35 Ne preporučujem 17
lowe

pre 13 godina

"Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41) "

well, you definitely will have to ask him (and be prepared to grovel even) when it comes to UN membership. Oh, I know, I know. You guys don't care for UN membership. Hyseni only goes to the UN HQ because he loves to sightsee New York and all its dumps!

Preporučujem 41 Ne preporučujem 27
Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.

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winston

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans? Russia is even on the same continent, the USA is not. Resolution 1244 is indeed a good starting point, as this is agreement that the UNSC agrees on.

Preporučujem 41 Ne preporučujem 30
winston

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?

Preporučujem 44 Ne preporučujem 20
winston

pre 13 godina

Boy, the Russians must be as big a thorn in the Albanians' side, as the Serbs. But who cares what the Russians have to say, let's see what the diplomats from Karibati have to say. I am still laughing.

Preporučujem 43 Ne preporučujem 23
winston

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans? Russia is even on the same continent, the USA is not. Resolution 1244 is indeed a good starting point, as this is agreement that the UNSC agrees on.

Preporučujem 41 Ne preporučujem 30
lowe

pre 13 godina

"Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41) "

well, you definitely will have to ask him (and be prepared to grovel even) when it comes to UN membership. Oh, I know, I know. You guys don't care for UN membership. Hyseni only goes to the UN HQ because he loves to sightsee New York and all its dumps!

Preporučujem 41 Ne preporučujem 27
Zoran

pre 13 godina

UNSCR1244 is alive and well. Even the ICJ confirmed this.

If ethnic Albanians accept the decision of the ICJ and that declarations of independence are not covered by international law then they must also accept the whole ruling, which confirms the validity of UNSCR1244.

Preporučujem 37 Ne preporučujem 20
lowe

pre 13 godina

"Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)"

Correction here. That UNGA resolution did not mention "technical negotiations" at all.

Specifically it stated "Welcomes the readiness of the EU to facilitate the process of dialogue between the parties. The process of dialogue by itself would be a factor of peace, security and stability in the region. This dialogue would be aimed to promote cooperation, make progress on the path towards the EU and improve people's lives.”

The way I see it, there are different ways to interpet this statement, depending on your political inclination.

I should also point out that the statement merely welcomes the EU's "readiness" to facilitate. But the EU is under no obligation to actually organize the dialogue if it changes its mind tomorrow. So one could even argue that it is an absurd resolution.

Preporučujem 35 Ne preporučujem 17
Mirel from Albania

pre 13 godina

I think Russia and China should be the main countries that will be involve with Serbia-Kosova dialogue.Also,Spain,Venezuela,Brasil,Cuba and of course the superpower Slovakia will be involve too.
Albania side will be represented by Oliver Ivanovic because he is from Kosovo that carries a passaport that is recognisable by countries above.Thaci and Sejdiu can not be represent Kosova because they are not good enough for coutries mentioned above and they don't carry a serbian passaport.
1244?
No I think 1989 is the best solution for all countries above.
After all people of Kosova will elect Ivanovich as their chairman.Everyone will be happy!Bratislava will crack fireworks and Dzurinda will think what people to pick next in order to be every week in the news.Propably people of Catalonia will have the bad luck...
I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.

Preporučujem 26 Ne preporučujem 24
Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)

The so called Stealth Bomber did come crashing down to earth, it could not be hidden from the public or CNN. Its nice to know that Russia has long ago neutralized the effectiveness of this so called radarless technology.

JNA outdated defense technology kept the NATO blames thousands of miles above in the sky.

NATO resorted to bombing civilian sites which did not descriminate between Albanian or Serbian. The KLA was no where to be found as they were soundly defeated by the Serbian army amid all the bombs.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.

While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.

Preporučujem 25 Ne preporučujem 4
JohnBoy

pre 13 godina

What dialogue? The kosovo issue will be resolved when the us and eu run out of credit - which will be within 2 years. And their foreclosure banker will be China.

Preporučujem 23 Ne preporučujem 10
sj

pre 13 godina

I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.
(Mirel from Albania, 26 October 2010 21:1

Leave politics to people that know what they are talking about.

Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41)

Russia is that huge “gorilla sitting in the lounge room” that everyone refuses to admit it’s there. Don’t worry you have the United States of Windbags to protect you – you know the victors of Iraq and Afghanistan or should I say the bankrupts of the western world.

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)

Unfortunately for you guys UNSCR 1244 is relevant and these negotiations are being held under those auspices and not some strange ICJ ruling on “do you think it’s illegal to say your independent?” with an answer “actually the act of declaring is not illegal”. Why not go an inch further and say the Kosovo declaration was legal? Hmm?
Like it or not status is definitely on the table. Talks on “technical” issues are only warm up sessions before the main more difficult issues.
The reason why Albos hate the Russians is because they can throw the spanner into the works and you can smell the fear.

Preporučujem 22 Ne preporučujem 9
Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.

Preporučujem 21 Ne preporučujem 45
Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?
(winston, 26 October 2010 17:22)

If Belgrade dares bring "status" to the negotiating table it will just be ignored, who is going to force Pristina to negotiate on status? No-one! So much for you long awaited status talks.

Pristina will not be forced to negotiate on issues that it doesn't want to discuss and the same applies to Belgrade.

Also the last I heard, Kosovo's declaration of independence was in line with UNSCR 1244. Also you can cry about the ICJ not ruling on Kosovo's actual independence but it would help if Serbia had actually asked the ICJ that question. Now you're all saying "Where is the answer to the question we never asked?"

Preporučujem 21 Ne preporučujem 24
highduke

pre 13 godina

@ pss - the Spetznaz arent training our forces for war with NATO bc KFOR is leaving voluntarily, they're training us for war against potential future Kurtist terrorists.

Preporučujem 19 Ne preporučujem 14
Peggy

pre 13 godina

@ Miri

No one really.
(Mendo, 26 October 2010 16:17)
=====================
Wrong Mendo,
Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?

Preporučujem 17 Ne preporučujem 13
icj1

pre 13 godina

Of course everything must be done according to resolution 1244. Kosovo for it's part it's the strongest supporter of 1244, declaring independence in accordance with 1244 and also committing to 1244 in both its declaration of independence and its consitution. No other other country has done as much as Kosovo to show the respect for 1244.

Preporučujem 16 Ne preporučujem 12
pss

pre 13 godina

Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.

Preporučujem 16 Ne preporučujem 12
massimo

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!

Preporučujem 16 Ne preporučujem 18
sj

pre 13 godina

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!
(massimo, 27 October 2010 10:17)

I suppose that you are aware that Chechnya has lost thousands in that war plus the many more hundreds killed or have disappeared due to the current Moscow supported leadership? The actual toll is somewhere 100 000 +. Yeah, the Bosniaks should thank God that it’s not like Chechnya.
Serbian soldiers are a thousand times better than that incompetent lot called the US – you should read up on the dozen or so Apache helicopters downed in Albania during the Kosovo war or the fact that they had to take semi-trailers full of US soldiers killed in Special operations to the Greek border.
An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)
Sure, it is a masterplan for Russia to train Serbian forces to declare war on NATO and the UN. And I guess all the efforts of your govt to join the EU is just a cover, so no one will expect Serbia's big military invasion?
By the way, everything planned for talks is within the framework of 1244 so I don't know why his mentioning it is news.

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Zoti

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans?
(winston, 26 October 2010)

Agreed. My problem is that you claim Kosova to be a US puppet but have no problem when Rusia speaks on your behalf. I feel like there's some sort of disconnect soemwhere.

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johny

pre 13 godina

As 1244 is still valid (thouhg the US tried to change it at least five times) any (!) dialogue should be based on 1244.
(Ron, 26 October 2010 18:16)

Of course and it will. ICJ only confirmed that since the declaration of independence is is accordance with 1244 then 1244 is still in force. Meaning not only we are independent despite of 1244 but we are independent because 1244. Any way you want it; we got it covered. ICJ made sure to clear things up just a little.

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GjonFusha

pre 13 godina

Does anybody body knows why he has to mention that?
Everithing untill now has been based on that resolution. Even Serbia site asked IC if UDI is ok with that resolution and they hade their unser.

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Nikulla

pre 13 godina

Russians are desperately trying to sound important in the international scene, though they know that they are not any-longer key-player, so do our Serbian friends. It will be the US who spins the table here.

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pss

pre 13 godina

An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.
(sj, 27 October 2010 13:23)
Seriously dude where do you get all your information for your many postings??
The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.

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ZMAJ

pre 13 godina

JohnnyC,

Reading your comments very carefully I must say that there are tons of logic wasted.. In a case of any other fictive subject rather than my people you'd be totally right. But, you see.., we're Serbs and not willing to follow the orders..,traditionally. We're too little to leave any powers to prevail, we're too small to loose anything but what's most important is that we're too stupid to be loyal slaves.., we will always get rif of our "try to be" owners, sooner or later.. Forget about your military "doctrine", your money and power, your f-117 and all the arogance of your worlds.. Here you have to deal with a few million real Serbs and your destiny is already written and your cowards pilots wrote the biggest part of it. You dug your own grave in Serbia as any other empire before. Inspite clever, you waste your time and logic on our Enigma.. We will dominate over our properties until we exist and your countries and militaries can always surrender at this point, earlier- better.

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sj

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)
My feet are well placed on the ground and what I have stated here is correct. You see I have a relation that was on General Pavkovic’s staff during the war so you see I don’t have to make these things up. The problem most Albos living in the US is watching too much TV and Hollywood has brainwashed you – there is no George Segal or Chuck Norris in the US military.
Look at the US record in Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO bombed Serbian civilian sites because it was not having any effect on the Serb military in Kosovo.
Here is another one for you – the US lost 1200 during the street to street fighting in Falluja, Iraq- - it was the bloodiest battle in Iraq.
The so called official record is 1300 insurgents while something of about 100 US – greatest load of crap ever.


The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.
(pss, 27 October 2010 15:23)
Who contributing to this forum has lived through the Vietnam war apart from me? I have worked in Government for 36 years and now I work for myself in Asia. I have made many contacts throughout those years in government. To you, the names of department heads printed in newspapers are just that but to me I now most of them personally.
“The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths” This would be the greatest piece of BS ever. Have you not learnt one thing from WikiLeaks publication last week of secret docos that the US Government tells huge lies to its people – Gee do you live under a rock and have no eyes in your head? This is not to be insulting but pure frustration on my part! Wake up!
US soldiers killed in action were collected and placed in semi trailers which had refrigeration faculties and were driven either to the Macedonian or Greek border and then handed over to NATO people – now do you understand? Most were killed with the shooting down of helicopters carrying Special Forces. When that did not work they then changed tactics and started bombing Serb civilian targets.
The US is notorious for its incompetence regarding bombing of targets – during WW2 it was never allowed to bomb during the night – that was left to the British. For example if the US wanted to bomb say Washington then I would suggest you move out of Chicago. Ask the Brits about the recent conflicts in Iraq and how many times the US bombed their own side.
When bodies were taken back to the US relatives were told that they were killed during maneuvers or they would have made up some other story. Having the US media under control who would print otherwise???????

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Vev

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

# Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.
(pss, 27 October 2010 05:23)
=================

And Serbia wants Russia to speak for them, so what on earth was the point of your original post?

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sj

pre 13 godina

(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

“The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.”

How would you know this fact when even 12 years later this stuff is still classified top secret? Anyother Wikipeadia source or has the US military let you in to their confidence? Another Albanian that does not know the difference between his elbow and backside. When the argument does not suit then it back to basics.
Here is my question again to you Albos – As the US is you ally how many factories have they established in Kosovo to soak up that 97% unemployment ??????

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?
Eyes Wide Open.
(AdamNYC, 28 October 2010 12:27)
Well laughing boy, your Albos are coming to the talking table and status is on the cards. Oh, you can keep the EU if you like – perhaps they will let your lot join, ha, ha,. Yeah in a million years. They need workers not lay abouts on social security – ask Angela Merkel what she thinks about your lot.

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peggy

pre 13 godina

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.
==================

and we all know where the A plan went. Yep, straight to the rubbish bin.

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.
==================

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen. You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.

If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!
(Vev, 27 October 2010 17:52)
===================

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?

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Leo

pre 13 godina

Read this carefully Serbs and Albanians. Obama is not lifting a finger to help out Albanians or Bosniaks. The Russians don't have a worry from Obama. Clinton's little tour was a farewell tour. The Americans will be busy enough fighting their own ethnic wars to worry about yours and Uncle Sam's next invasions will be Mexico, Venezuela and Cuba(after Fidel dies). Most Americans also increasingly hate Moslems. The 90s are a long time ago.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.
================

You call others confused but you are delusional.

Why didn't they use ground troops?
You see how well they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Surely they want another "success" in the Balkans?

If they used ground troops I am certain it would've escalated. Others would've bought into it and NATO simply could not afford that.
You don't win anything with air power only. You have to use ground troops and NATO will NOT do that.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach -
(Bob, 29 October 2010 03:45)

I assume you are not referring to Kosovo’s UDI, because that was not a breach of 1244.

If you are referring to Kosovo’s UDI, you may want to update yourself with the latest developments because the latest news you’ve read on the matter appear to be from, at least, 4 months ago.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.
(johny, 28 October 2010 18:47)

Again, you need to read the 1244 resolution. It say's nothing about independance but substantial autonomy.

The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia.

The ICJ ruling does not solidify independance whatsoever. It only avoided the real issue and covered it with allowing the "declaration of indpendance to be legal" but avoiding the real question over the legality of the seperation of Kosovo from the Repubic if Serbia and the former Yugoslavia.

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" (JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

The Serbian Generals would be that stupid to withdraw with a highway to death scenario.

What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.

As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.

How could it be otherwise highway to death?

NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.

Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.

A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.

NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens; the Serbian army lost less than 200.

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pss

pre 13 godina

(sj, 28 October 2010 00:09
I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.
The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.

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johny

pre 13 godina

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 22:21)

That is definitely not the case Peggy. You know it very well but your intentions are malicious. If you were alive and/or born prior to only a couple of years ago you would know the following.

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.

Also 1244 cannot actually be replaced. Another resolution can come to fruition which makes 1244 provisions invalid, but there is no such thing as actual replacement. 1244 will be there and will be referred in some ICJ case in the future for reference. Semantics but we need to clear things up.

So in the end, the provisions of 1244, or better yet some of those provisions are invalid because UN secretary general through Ahtiari made them invalid when it was decided that the interim period is over. Meaning that Yugoslavia's borders are no longer guaranteed because it was decided that the interim period was over. That provision is already non-existent anymore. So for that there is no need for a new resolution. Other provisions of 1244 are still active. However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.

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Bob

pre 13 godina

If 1244 does not apply, then Serbia has the right to invade and no one has the right to stop them. Kosovo is a Serbian province and it is only by might and 1244 that the situation is any different.

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach - then the future is left open for Serbia to reoccupy. It is within the power of Serbia to declare the terms of 1244 breached and therefore the whole thing invalidated. Who knows what the future actually holds. Even the politics can change. Ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo has been very effective, but the world is still not in touch with what has really happened there from long before Milosevic. I do not want to see an independent country in Kosovo - and neither do the Albanians. They want to join with Albania and (if the west don't stop them) they will.

The mistake Serbia made was not so much the use of force - that was quite legal. That's why NATO interventions in Bosnia came so slowly. What was illegal and sparked the interventions was the way it was done. In particular, the paramilitaries in Bosnia did no good for Serbia's reputation and were in flagrant breach of international law. However, mistake or no mistake, Kosovo is a Serbian province. 1244 only wants autonomy and is most definitely written in terms that acknowledge the territorial integrity.

What also amazes me, is that the west supported a stated policy of making Kosovo a 'clean' Albanian territory - ethnic cleansing of Serbs was the Albanian aim.

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sj

pre 13 godina

I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.

The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.
(pss, 28 October 2010 14:52)

I am not a political adviser nor have I ever been in that position. The vast number of political advisers are relatively stupid party hacks who don’t know the difference between a glass of water and the ocean. I am not personally privy to any state secrets but I do know people that have of information of interest – they are not STATE SECRETS as you seem to believe. I keep in contact with people that I Iike and have in the past worked with and a number of these people were heads of government departments – they have contacts and so on.
Also, university researchers have access to a lot of this stuff. Yes certain information about the Stealth aircraft is still not available to the public even today.
The problem with Albanians is you make a statement and the reply is not to your taste so “I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information”.
The ICJ ruling is the most ludicrous piece judicial decision making in the history of law. I was like many other Serbs believing that the ICJ was an actual court of law – silly me. I have children who are lawyers, but it was not until after the decision was handed down that I questioned them about the ICJ. One of their friends from Australia said “it’s a BS organization staffed by political drop outs that could not find decent work anywhere else” He even stated that “we had one on that ICJ – John Dowd – a third rate politician from New South Wales.
The same propaganda is recycled over and over again from the Vietnam war days to today.

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 14:48)

Yes you are right about the Roma, but the Albanians are very close to that figure too – who works in Kosovo except the politicians and their police? You would be lucky to have an employment rate of 20% if that. Why are hundreds trying to leave Kosovo if the prospects are that good?
I am curious what rank did you hold?

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet. The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 15:51)
The stealth aircraft was an expensive piece of junk and after the first one was shot down they only used the others as backdrops to Clinton’s press conferences.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Totally correct. That’s why General Clarke did not get his victory parade in NY. William Cohen was shocked to see the amount of completely intact military hard wear leaving Kosovo. He was furious at being told lies by the good general and Cohen terminated Clarke’s appointment as head of NATO 3 months earlier than was intended.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.
(icj1, 29 October 2010 01:48)
================

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
================

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all.

The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.

As to air defenses. Most of them that survived were turned off. Basic military doctrine. If I blow it up, its useless to you. If you turn it off to keep it from being blown up, its still useless to you.

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" as NATO had clear air superiority over Kosovo. As to their effectiveness, most of the assets were either hidden in the tunnels by the airport or or in the tunnels in the middle of Pristina where they were surrounded by the civilian population. Same effect. You hide it to keep it from being destroyed, its still useless to you.

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.

Quibble all you want and pout while you claim victory, the result is in the streets of Pristina every single day. There are no Serbian tanks, planes, police, or other authority running Kosovo.

You can argue the right or wrong all day, but bottom line is that the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo and NATO moved in and is still there.

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

should be, could be, want to be

no.

serbia had absolute and ample opportunity to challenge kosovo's independence and in particular the icj's ruling in the UN.

it did not.

yes, russia may be a tad miffed at serbias capitulation at the un, but that is no reason for russia to give serbia a greenlight in its inevitable hobbling of the dialogue they jointly authored and put forth themselves with imagined "should be's"


Remember that as far as kosovo was concerned, dialogue was always an open door.

Kosovo is not beholden to this joint resolution... it is something serbia willingly created with the EU in RESPONSE to the icj decision.

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?

Eyes Wide Open.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Hi sj,

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Peggy, B92 chose not to allow my post with links to explain the military strategy and historical timelines of the Kosovo Air Campaign. So I'll just state that you might want to do a little research if the topic interests you. But one thing is sure, the Serbian Army in Kosovo, through military and diplomatic means, was "pacified"

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

"You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all. "

Your don't show anything in your writing about any knowledge of military doctrine, but a political bias and nationalist affinity Albanians ignoring the true facts on the ground.

For your information, Milosevic was not a nationalist, in fact, he probably liked Albanians better than Serbs!

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

sj,

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet.

The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

You may not need a court considering your deep knowledge of international law, but I need it, because whatever you say, you are not an impartial judge or a court of law. So, if no international court has decided that the US broke the rules, I can't say with certainty that the US broke the rules. I can express my opinion, but that just remains my opinion without any authoritative value.


You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

That is wrong…

It depends; sometimes US (as other states) has to agree on a case-by-case basis about the ICJ's jurisdiction. In some cases US is not exempt from the ICJ jurisdiction (see for example Mexico vs. US in 2003). And the ICJ has ruled in the past against US (for example Nicaragua vs. US in 1984) and it can do again in the future if US breaks the rules.


If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.
(peggy, 28 October 2010 22:15)


Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.

That's because Kosovo's Declaration of Independence did not violate 1244. So, for all it matters, 1244 can continue for other 5,000,0000,000 years (i.e. until when science says the sun will run out of hydrogen) if the UNSC so wishes. That does not have any impact on Kosovo's Declaration of Independence.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

What about the certified forcible transfer of civilians committed by Pavkovic ? or you forgot about it ?


While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.


In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I don’t see the “reluctantly” part since Kosovo’s independence did not go against the “guarantee of the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia”. So, I’m not sure why US had to be reluctant. Indeed, US voted to approve the resolution and Serbia pleaded the Council members to not approve it (or, at least, this is what the transcript of the UNSC meeting shows). US fully respected that agreement (ie 1244) and it did not violate it.

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pss

pre 13 godina

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

There is that Serbian version of resolution 1244 again, I really need to get a copy of it. Of course the original version never "guarantees" the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.
It does reaffirm a commitment to it according to the Helsinki Final Act. Which no signing country will claim Yugoslavia territory as their own by force or other means. It does not approach the question of secession but does forbid a country such as Albanian from annexing any part like Kosovo.
The phrase is not unique to res 1244 but is pretty much standard to most resolutions by the UNSC.

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KU

pre 13 godina

"In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life. "
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Thinking about what those soldiers of JNA were likely thinking on June 10 and 11 and 12 of 1999, I agree with you. There is great pride to be found in the simple fact of having remained alive.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Your first error in judgement is that you assumed I was Albanian. Pre 1999 I did not know what an Albanian or a Serbian was, I was familiar with Yugoslavia from studies in school. My first real exposure to the mess was in 2006 when I took a position in Kosovo. My initial opinion was that the best course would be to find a way to reintegrate Kosovo with Serbia. It did not take long to be convinced that this was not even a remote possibility.
The 2nd is your proof on the ICJ (your children who were raised with your same biases) Even if they are lawyers (with a Serbian background) their view on the judges at the ICJ cannot be given credence. The lawyers at the Hague may have the same opinion of your children if they were to know them. Most lawyers do not give credence to other lawyers, and most people on the losing side of a judgement claim the court was corrupt, inept, prejudiced or erroneous. What differentiates your claims from those. I do not think you posted those opinions prior to being on the losing side.
My reply to you was a tongue in cheek response to your many comments with preposterous claims.
One such is that NATO is only in Kosovo for the US base Bondsteel. Shows you have never visited Bondsteel nor know anything of what is there.
Such as the fact that for the first few years the roads inside the base were not paved because it was not meant to be permanent nor give that illusion. They were only paved because it was cheaper than replacing the gravel constantly. It only has landing room for a handful of helicoptors no landing strip for planes. It is not the grand Emerald City that most local Albanians and Serbians that cannot pass through the gates believe it is.
The location is no more advantageous than many the US could have chosen without controversy in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, etc.

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johny

pre 13 godina

"The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia. "

-- Not true. If that was the case ICJ would have decided against it. 1244 does not specify anything after the interim period. You can read it as many times as you want.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)
-------------------

Arguing without knowledge is a sign of a fool but he keeps coming back day after day to entertain us.
Must admit, at times he frustrates me for a second and then I realize how silly he sounds and even feel pity for him.

I wonder if he is actually EA or Roberto writing under another name.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?
(Peggy, 30 October 2010 05:13)

Peggy, what you are asking is impossible; it's obvious you don't understand much on legal arguments...

Let me introduce some Law 101… No state has ever been prosecuted of war crimes. The reason is simple: a war crime involves individual criminal responsibility. Only a natural person (a human being) can be prosecuted for a war crime. A legal person (for example a state) cannot be prosecuted for war crimes.

So the answer to your question is never because US is not a natural person.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
===…==

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.
(Peggy, 31 October 2010 02:13)

We were discussing about Kosovo, and it doesn’t matter for the legality of Kosovo’s independence…

But if you want to discuss about US, of course it matters for US, because the American taxpayer which is the largest contributor to the UN budget is wasting money for paying millions of dollars per year for nothing (or actually for just receiving 4 reports/year).

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icj1

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

The Secretary General was delegated by the Security Council through resolution 1244 to decide when the interim period was over. If the Secretary General did something that went beyond its power delegated by the Security Council, the Security Council would have immediately corrected that situation. But it didn’t because the Secretary General acted within the powers delegated to it by the Security Council. The Security Council said nowhere in resolution 1244 that it was reserving for itself the right to declare through a second resolution when the interim period was over.


What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

“Highest standard”… since when being a certified war criminal is a high standard ?

It’s precisely declarations like this which makes independence the only acceptable solution for Albanians. How can they live in the same state with people who consider certified crimes against Albanians as “high standard”. That’s just an invitation to apply those same “high standards” if Kosovo is again under Serbia.


As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

I don’t remember such “shock”; do you have any reference which shows this global “shock” ?


NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Dude you are trying to convince us how the Serbian Army was excellent in doing X, Y or Z…. Let’s assume you are correct. It does not matter; what matters is the result. At the end the Serbian army had to do what the other side wanted – i.e. withdraw from Kosovo. So, most likely, the Serbian army was good at the things which did not matter.


Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

And Milosevic failed with his strategy


A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

NATO was not there to annihilate Serbia, but to force it to withdraw from Kosovo, as it did. Assuming that Pavkovic was much smarter, he probably was smarter on things that did not matter, because the result was the “stupid” Clark dictated to the “smart” Pavkovic to withdraw from Kosovo. If stupid people are able to achieve their goals and smart people aren’t, I’d love to be “stupid”.


NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens;
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Well, in a war people are sometime killed (btw that’s not a crime; it’s the nature of war). That’s why before being involved in a war a state has to consider whether there are alternative solutions.


the Serbian army lost less than 200.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

So NATO had a decisive victory (probably the most decisive in history) by losing no one (vs. Serbia’s 200) and fully achieving its objective of getting the Serbian army out of Kosovo.

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Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)
Sure, it is a masterplan for Russia to train Serbian forces to declare war on NATO and the UN. And I guess all the efforts of your govt to join the EU is just a cover, so no one will expect Serbia's big military invasion?
By the way, everything planned for talks is within the framework of 1244 so I don't know why his mentioning it is news.

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winston

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans? Russia is even on the same continent, the USA is not. Resolution 1244 is indeed a good starting point, as this is agreement that the UNSC agrees on.

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lowe

pre 13 godina

"Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41) "

well, you definitely will have to ask him (and be prepared to grovel even) when it comes to UN membership. Oh, I know, I know. You guys don't care for UN membership. Hyseni only goes to the UN HQ because he loves to sightsee New York and all its dumps!

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Mirel from Albania

pre 13 godina

I think Russia and China should be the main countries that will be involve with Serbia-Kosova dialogue.Also,Spain,Venezuela,Brasil,Cuba and of course the superpower Slovakia will be involve too.
Albania side will be represented by Oliver Ivanovic because he is from Kosovo that carries a passaport that is recognisable by countries above.Thaci and Sejdiu can not be represent Kosova because they are not good enough for coutries mentioned above and they don't carry a serbian passaport.
1244?
No I think 1989 is the best solution for all countries above.
After all people of Kosova will elect Ivanovich as their chairman.Everyone will be happy!Bratislava will crack fireworks and Dzurinda will think what people to pick next in order to be every week in the news.Propably people of Catalonia will have the bad luck...
I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.

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Ian, UK

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?
(winston, 26 October 2010 17:22)

If Belgrade dares bring "status" to the negotiating table it will just be ignored, who is going to force Pristina to negotiate on status? No-one! So much for you long awaited status talks.

Pristina will not be forced to negotiate on issues that it doesn't want to discuss and the same applies to Belgrade.

Also the last I heard, Kosovo's declaration of independence was in line with UNSCR 1244. Also you can cry about the ICJ not ruling on Kosovo's actual independence but it would help if Serbia had actually asked the ICJ that question. Now you're all saying "Where is the answer to the question we never asked?"

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winston

pre 13 godina

Boy, the Russians must be as big a thorn in the Albanians' side, as the Serbs. But who cares what the Russians have to say, let's see what the diplomats from Karibati have to say. I am still laughing.

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winston

pre 13 godina

You are wrong, Ian UK. All issues will be discussed, not just what Pristina finds convenient. And resolution 1244 is very relevant, as this is the resolution that the UNSC agreed on to govern Kosovo. Understand?

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Zoran

pre 13 godina

UNSCR1244 is alive and well. Even the ICJ confirmed this.

If ethnic Albanians accept the decision of the ICJ and that declarations of independence are not covered by international law then they must also accept the whole ruling, which confirms the validity of UNSCR1244.

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johny

pre 13 godina

As 1244 is still valid (thouhg the US tried to change it at least five times) any (!) dialogue should be based on 1244.
(Ron, 26 October 2010 18:16)

Of course and it will. ICJ only confirmed that since the declaration of independence is is accordance with 1244 then 1244 is still in force. Meaning not only we are independent despite of 1244 but we are independent because 1244. Any way you want it; we got it covered. ICJ made sure to clear things up just a little.

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Nikulla

pre 13 godina

Russians are desperately trying to sound important in the international scene, though they know that they are not any-longer key-player, so do our Serbian friends. It will be the US who spins the table here.

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Zoti

pre 13 godina

Miri, wouldn't you say the Russians have just as much right to speak as the Americans?
(winston, 26 October 2010)

Agreed. My problem is that you claim Kosova to be a US puppet but have no problem when Rusia speaks on your behalf. I feel like there's some sort of disconnect soemwhere.

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massimo

pre 13 godina

Res1244 baby! You think Russian Special Forces are training their Serbian counterparts for nothing? Think again!
(highduke, 26 October 2010 15:57)

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!

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lowe

pre 13 godina

"Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)"

Correction here. That UNGA resolution did not mention "technical negotiations" at all.

Specifically it stated "Welcomes the readiness of the EU to facilitate the process of dialogue between the parties. The process of dialogue by itself would be a factor of peace, security and stability in the region. This dialogue would be aimed to promote cooperation, make progress on the path towards the EU and improve people's lives.”

The way I see it, there are different ways to interpet this statement, depending on your political inclination.

I should also point out that the statement merely welcomes the EU's "readiness" to facilitate. But the EU is under no obligation to actually organize the dialogue if it changes its mind tomorrow. So one could even argue that it is an absurd resolution.

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GjonFusha

pre 13 godina

Does anybody body knows why he has to mention that?
Everithing untill now has been based on that resolution. Even Serbia site asked IC if UDI is ok with that resolution and they hade their unser.

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sj

pre 13 godina

Poor Serbian special forces! Thank God Sandzak is not Chechnya!
(massimo, 27 October 2010 10:17)

I suppose that you are aware that Chechnya has lost thousands in that war plus the many more hundreds killed or have disappeared due to the current Moscow supported leadership? The actual toll is somewhere 100 000 +. Yeah, the Bosniaks should thank God that it’s not like Chechnya.
Serbian soldiers are a thousand times better than that incompetent lot called the US – you should read up on the dozen or so Apache helicopters downed in Albania during the Kosovo war or the fact that they had to take semi-trailers full of US soldiers killed in Special operations to the Greek border.
An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.

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highduke

pre 13 godina

@ pss - the Spetznaz arent training our forces for war with NATO bc KFOR is leaving voluntarily, they're training us for war against potential future Kurtist terrorists.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

@ Miri

No one really.
(Mendo, 26 October 2010 16:17)
=====================
Wrong Mendo,
Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Of course everything must be done according to resolution 1244. Kosovo for it's part it's the strongest supporter of 1244, declaring independence in accordance with 1244 and also committing to 1244 in both its declaration of independence and its consitution. No other other country has done as much as Kosovo to show the respect for 1244.

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pss

pre 13 godina

Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.

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Vev

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!

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JohnBoy

pre 13 godina

What dialogue? The kosovo issue will be resolved when the us and eu run out of credit - which will be within 2 years. And their foreclosure banker will be China.

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pss

pre 13 godina

An incident occurred during the war where American special forces called in air support near the Albo border and these clowns bombed the wrong positions killing some US special forces, KLA fighters and civilians; the Serbs suffered no casualties.
(sj, 27 October 2010 13:23)
Seriously dude where do you get all your information for your many postings??
The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.

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sj

pre 13 godina

I am amazed by serbian comentators in this forum most of them have lost their touch with the motherland Serbia,or never been in Kosova.Do you really still believe that Kosova is part of Serbia?Because I don't see any authority of Serbian gonverment there...The quicker you realise that Kosova is lost the better for all people in the region.
(Mirel from Albania, 26 October 2010 21:1

Leave politics to people that know what they are talking about.

Who asked him?
Anyone?
(miri, 26 October 2010 15:41)

Russia is that huge “gorilla sitting in the lounge room” that everyone refuses to admit it’s there. Don’t worry you have the United States of Windbags to protect you – you know the victors of Iraq and Afghanistan or should I say the bankrupts of the western world.

The dialogue will have to take place under conditions which both parties agree therefore I doubt Pristina will agree for negotiations according to UNSCR 1244. Besides these are only technical negotiations according to the EU-Serbia resolution which was agreed by all 192 UN members, therefore USCR 1244 isn't relevant.
(Ian, UK, 26 October 2010 16:06)

Unfortunately for you guys UNSCR 1244 is relevant and these negotiations are being held under those auspices and not some strange ICJ ruling on “do you think it’s illegal to say your independent?” with an answer “actually the act of declaring is not illegal”. Why not go an inch further and say the Kosovo declaration was legal? Hmm?
Like it or not status is definitely on the table. Talks on “technical” issues are only warm up sessions before the main more difficult issues.
The reason why Albos hate the Russians is because they can throw the spanner into the works and you can smell the fear.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all.

The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.

As to air defenses. Most of them that survived were turned off. Basic military doctrine. If I blow it up, its useless to you. If you turn it off to keep it from being blown up, its still useless to you.

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" as NATO had clear air superiority over Kosovo. As to their effectiveness, most of the assets were either hidden in the tunnels by the airport or or in the tunnels in the middle of Pristina where they were surrounded by the civilian population. Same effect. You hide it to keep it from being destroyed, its still useless to you.

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.

Quibble all you want and pout while you claim victory, the result is in the streets of Pristina every single day. There are no Serbian tanks, planes, police, or other authority running Kosovo.

You can argue the right or wrong all day, but bottom line is that the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo and NATO moved in and is still there.

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johny

pre 13 godina

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 22:21)

That is definitely not the case Peggy. You know it very well but your intentions are malicious. If you were alive and/or born prior to only a couple of years ago you would know the following.

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.

Also 1244 cannot actually be replaced. Another resolution can come to fruition which makes 1244 provisions invalid, but there is no such thing as actual replacement. 1244 will be there and will be referred in some ICJ case in the future for reference. Semantics but we need to clear things up.

So in the end, the provisions of 1244, or better yet some of those provisions are invalid because UN secretary general through Ahtiari made them invalid when it was decided that the interim period is over. Meaning that Yugoslavia's borders are no longer guaranteed because it was decided that the interim period was over. That provision is already non-existent anymore. So for that there is no need for a new resolution. Other provisions of 1244 are still active. However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

What about the certified forcible transfer of civilians committed by Pavkovic ? or you forgot about it ?


While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.


In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

I don’t see the “reluctantly” part since Kosovo’s independence did not go against the “guarantee of the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia”. So, I’m not sure why US had to be reluctant. Indeed, US voted to approve the resolution and Serbia pleaded the Council members to not approve it (or, at least, this is what the transcript of the UNSC meeting shows). US fully respected that agreement (ie 1244) and it did not violate it.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)

The so called Stealth Bomber did come crashing down to earth, it could not be hidden from the public or CNN. Its nice to know that Russia has long ago neutralized the effectiveness of this so called radarless technology.

JNA outdated defense technology kept the NATO blames thousands of miles above in the sky.

NATO resorted to bombing civilian sites which did not descriminate between Albanian or Serbian. The KLA was no where to be found as they were soundly defeated by the Serbian army amid all the bombs.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.

If you were watching CNN, you could hear the incessant propoganda about how many tanks were being blown up when in actuality they were blowing up baloon tanks.
General Pavkovic is in jail because he masterfully defeated the KLA.

While the Serbian army was fighting the KLA and NATO, the US resorted to bombing TV stations, the Chinese Embassy, the NIS market place, pedestrian bridgs, power grids, civilian buses in order to terrorize the populuation. They dropped Uranium depleted bombs (outlawed by international conventions), bombed the residence of a national leader(against the Geneva convention). As far as the US is concerned, rules are made to be broken.

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I apologize, but I don’t know of any international court that has decided that the US broke the rules. Sorry for my ignorance, but can you please illuminate us where to find such decision that says that US broke the rule.
==================

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen. You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.

If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Hi sj,

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.

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pss

pre 13 godina

(sj, 28 October 2010 00:09
I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.
The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach -
(Bob, 29 October 2010 03:45)

I assume you are not referring to Kosovo’s UDI, because that was not a breach of 1244.

If you are referring to Kosovo’s UDI, you may want to update yourself with the latest developments because the latest news you’ve read on the matter appear to be from, at least, 4 months ago.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.
(icj1, 29 October 2010 01:48)
================

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?

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AdamNYC

pre 13 godina

should be, could be, want to be

no.

serbia had absolute and ample opportunity to challenge kosovo's independence and in particular the icj's ruling in the UN.

it did not.

yes, russia may be a tad miffed at serbias capitulation at the un, but that is no reason for russia to give serbia a greenlight in its inevitable hobbling of the dialogue they jointly authored and put forth themselves with imagined "should be's"


Remember that as far as kosovo was concerned, dialogue was always an open door.

Kosovo is not beholden to this joint resolution... it is something serbia willingly created with the EU in RESPONSE to the icj decision.

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?

Eyes Wide Open.

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pss

pre 13 godina

In the end, the US reluctantly had to negotiate the clause to "guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia" in UN resolution 1244. In hindsight, Milosevic probably should have held out for more given that international agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

There is that Serbian version of resolution 1244 again, I really need to get a copy of it. Of course the original version never "guarantees" the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.
It does reaffirm a commitment to it according to the Helsinki Final Act. Which no signing country will claim Yugoslavia territory as their own by force or other means. It does not approach the question of secession but does forbid a country such as Albanian from annexing any part like Kosovo.
The phrase is not unique to res 1244 but is pretty much standard to most resolutions by the UNSC.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

sj,

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet.

The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.

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Bob

pre 13 godina

If 1244 does not apply, then Serbia has the right to invade and no one has the right to stop them. Kosovo is a Serbian province and it is only by might and 1244 that the situation is any different.

Also, if 1244 is breached - and the udi attempt is a breach - then the future is left open for Serbia to reoccupy. It is within the power of Serbia to declare the terms of 1244 breached and therefore the whole thing invalidated. Who knows what the future actually holds. Even the politics can change. Ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo has been very effective, but the world is still not in touch with what has really happened there from long before Milosevic. I do not want to see an independent country in Kosovo - and neither do the Albanians. They want to join with Albania and (if the west don't stop them) they will.

The mistake Serbia made was not so much the use of force - that was quite legal. That's why NATO interventions in Bosnia came so slowly. What was illegal and sparked the interventions was the way it was done. In particular, the paramilitaries in Bosnia did no good for Serbia's reputation and were in flagrant breach of international law. However, mistake or no mistake, Kosovo is a Serbian province. 1244 only wants autonomy and is most definitely written in terms that acknowledge the territorial integrity.

What also amazes me, is that the west supported a stated policy of making Kosovo a 'clean' Albanian territory - ethnic cleansing of Serbs was the Albanian aim.

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JohnnyC

pre 13 godina

Peggy, B92 chose not to allow my post with links to explain the military strategy and historical timelines of the Kosovo Air Campaign. So I'll just state that you might want to do a little research if the topic interests you. But one thing is sure, the Serbian Army in Kosovo, through military and diplomatic means, was "pacified"

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pss

pre 13 godina

Your first error in judgement is that you assumed I was Albanian. Pre 1999 I did not know what an Albanian or a Serbian was, I was familiar with Yugoslavia from studies in school. My first real exposure to the mess was in 2006 when I took a position in Kosovo. My initial opinion was that the best course would be to find a way to reintegrate Kosovo with Serbia. It did not take long to be convinced that this was not even a remote possibility.
The 2nd is your proof on the ICJ (your children who were raised with your same biases) Even if they are lawyers (with a Serbian background) their view on the judges at the ICJ cannot be given credence. The lawyers at the Hague may have the same opinion of your children if they were to know them. Most lawyers do not give credence to other lawyers, and most people on the losing side of a judgement claim the court was corrupt, inept, prejudiced or erroneous. What differentiates your claims from those. I do not think you posted those opinions prior to being on the losing side.
My reply to you was a tongue in cheek response to your many comments with preposterous claims.
One such is that NATO is only in Kosovo for the US base Bondsteel. Shows you have never visited Bondsteel nor know anything of what is there.
Such as the fact that for the first few years the roads inside the base were not paved because it was not meant to be permanent nor give that illusion. They were only paved because it was cheaper than replacing the gravel constantly. It only has landing room for a handful of helicoptors no landing strip for planes. It is not the grand Emerald City that most local Albanians and Serbians that cannot pass through the gates believe it is.
The location is no more advantageous than many the US could have chosen without controversy in Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, etc.

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sj

pre 13 godina

(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

“The Stealth Bomber was not used in 1999. The Stealth Fighter was, and yes one was shot down after a NATO Officer compromised the route, along with an F16. Two aircraft out of how many sorties? And both pilots were successfully recovered. Nothing is immune to ground fire.”

How would you know this fact when even 12 years later this stuff is still classified top secret? Anyother Wikipeadia source or has the US military let you in to their confidence? Another Albanian that does not know the difference between his elbow and backside. When the argument does not suit then it back to basics.
Here is my question again to you Albos – As the US is you ally how many factories have they established in Kosovo to soak up that 97% unemployment ??????

Any attempt by serbia to derail it with the inevitable nonsense will only be met with laughter by kosovo and put serbia further away from the EU... wich would not bother russia in the slightest now would it?
Eyes Wide Open.
(AdamNYC, 28 October 2010 12:27)
Well laughing boy, your Albos are coming to the talking table and status is on the cards. Oh, you can keep the EU if you like – perhaps they will let your lot join, ha, ha,. Yeah in a million years. They need workers not lay abouts on social security – ask Angela Merkel what she thinks about your lot.

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sj

pre 13 godina

I guess I should apologize, I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information of these nations and revealing it in a website such as B92. Reminds me of the claims by Staff prior to the ICJ ruling and we know how his predictions based on classified information turned out.

The one thing about anonymous comment sites is one can lace their credentials however they wish, I think tomorrow I will be the security advisor to President Obama.
Seriously though,I was not in Vietnam, I graduated the year it ended but I did have a brother who was killed in action and there was no by the govt on how he died.
(pss, 28 October 2010 14:52)

I am not a political adviser nor have I ever been in that position. The vast number of political advisers are relatively stupid party hacks who don’t know the difference between a glass of water and the ocean. I am not personally privy to any state secrets but I do know people that have of information of interest – they are not STATE SECRETS as you seem to believe. I keep in contact with people that I Iike and have in the past worked with and a number of these people were heads of government departments – they have contacts and so on.
Also, university researchers have access to a lot of this stuff. Yes certain information about the Stealth aircraft is still not available to the public even today.
The problem with Albanians is you make a statement and the reply is not to your taste so “I did not realize we had someone who is privy to all the top secret information”.
The ICJ ruling is the most ludicrous piece judicial decision making in the history of law. I was like many other Serbs believing that the ICJ was an actual court of law – silly me. I have children who are lawyers, but it was not until after the decision was handed down that I questioned them about the ICJ. One of their friends from Australia said “it’s a BS organization staffed by political drop outs that could not find decent work anywhere else” He even stated that “we had one on that ICJ – John Dowd – a third rate politician from New South Wales.
The same propaganda is recycled over and over again from the Vietnam war days to today.

Probably because I was in the US military for 21 years, including during 1999. As to your 97% unemployment you keep quoting...that is the unemployment rate for the Roma not for the entirety of Kosovo.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 14:48)

Yes you are right about the Roma, but the Albanians are very close to that figure too – who works in Kosovo except the politicians and their police? You would be lucky to have an employment rate of 20% if that. Why are hundreds trying to leave Kosovo if the prospects are that good?
I am curious what rank did you hold?

It is funny how about only half my posts actually make it. You're right. You caught me. I'm a 12 year old Albanian boy in a Pristina Internet Cafe. I don't know anything, even what is common knowledge and readily available on the Internet. The post that didn't make it referenced the fact that every Serbian youth in Kosovo knows that a F-117 was shot down during the conflict. In 2000 they used to sell little packets of black plastic they called pieces of the F-117 with the slogan "We didn't know it was invisible". It was very funny. Little Serbian boys used to come up to my car and mimick shooting it down. They were very cute.
(JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 15:51)
The stealth aircraft was an expensive piece of junk and after the first one was shot down they only used the others as backdrops to Clinton’s press conferences.

In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life.
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Totally correct. That’s why General Clarke did not get his victory parade in NY. William Cohen was shocked to see the amount of completely intact military hard wear leaving Kosovo. He was furious at being told lies by the good general and Cohen terminated Clarke’s appointment as head of NATO 3 months earlier than was intended.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

You seem to forget, that the air campaign was just that. NATO never used ground forces, so the outcomes are a bit different.
================

You call others confused but you are delusional.

Why didn't they use ground troops?
You see how well they are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Surely they want another "success" in the Balkans?

If they used ground troops I am certain it would've escalated. Others would've bought into it and NATO simply could not afford that.
You don't win anything with air power only. You have to use ground troops and NATO will NOT do that.

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peggy

pre 13 godina

Te UN Secretary, gave the task to determine when 1244 becomes invalid to Marti Ahtisari. You can do all the research about this as your hear wishes. So him and only him had the authority to decide when 1244 was to become inactive. We all know how he decided.
==================

and we all know where the A plan went. Yep, straight to the rubbish bin.

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Simple. We all know what the rules are and what the US did. We don't need a court to declare that because it will never happen.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

You may not need a court considering your deep knowledge of international law, but I need it, because whatever you say, you are not an impartial judge or a court of law. So, if no international court has decided that the US broke the rules, I can't say with certainty that the US broke the rules. I can express my opinion, but that just remains my opinion without any authoritative value.


You see, the US is exempt from ICJ or any scrutiny except their own.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

That is wrong…

It depends; sometimes US (as other states) has to agree on a case-by-case basis about the ICJ's jurisdiction. In some cases US is not exempt from the ICJ jurisdiction (see for example Mexico vs. US in 2003). And the ICJ has ruled in the past against US (for example Nicaragua vs. US in 1984) and it can do again in the future if US breaks the rules.


If you think that you sound so clever by what you said you are dead wrong.
(Peggy, 28 October 2010 10:59)

I don't write things to sound clever (if that's your motivation, it does not mean all the rest of the posters here are like you). I just present the arguments and the facts which unfortunately you don't do very often. You just jump to the conclusion.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

I cannot believe you are trying to pass this one as fact.
Why then is the US so desperate to abolish res 1244? All they have to do it call Marti and tell him to abolish it but they seem to have no luck. Why do they keep harping on how they want to replace it with something else?

It is you who came down in the last shower.
(peggy, 28 October 2010 22:15)


Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.

That's because Kosovo's Declaration of Independence did not violate 1244. So, for all it matters, 1244 can continue for other 5,000,0000,000 years (i.e. until when science says the sun will run out of hydrogen) if the UNSC so wishes. That does not have any impact on Kosovo's Declaration of Independence.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

well apperently Russians don't know that ICJ, in its opinion, clearly say that resolution 1244 was only an interim solution ... ! provisory !!
(Vev, 27 October 2010 17:52)
===================

Of course, nothing lasts forever, but can you tell us how long res 1244 will last?
What is the time frame in which it is not valid any more?

I'll tell you. When res 1244 gets replaced by another resolution, that's when. Now that all depends on Serbia's and Russia's willingness to sign another resolution voiding this one.

Get the point now?

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

# Russians know they are welcome to speak on Serbia's behalf because Serbia wants them to.

Who asked the US?
(Peggy, 27 October 2010 00:19)
I think it is obvious that Kosovo wants the US to speak up for them.
(pss, 27 October 2010 05:23)
=================

And Serbia wants Russia to speak for them, so what on earth was the point of your original post?

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sj

pre 13 godina

Hey "sj" are you for real?
Please come down to earth.
Hello!
(miri, 27 October 2010 15:20)
My feet are well placed on the ground and what I have stated here is correct. You see I have a relation that was on General Pavkovic’s staff during the war so you see I don’t have to make these things up. The problem most Albos living in the US is watching too much TV and Hollywood has brainwashed you – there is no George Segal or Chuck Norris in the US military.
Look at the US record in Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO bombed Serbian civilian sites because it was not having any effect on the Serb military in Kosovo.
Here is another one for you – the US lost 1200 during the street to street fighting in Falluja, Iraq- - it was the bloodiest battle in Iraq.
The so called official record is 1300 insurgents while something of about 100 US – greatest load of crap ever.


The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths, a somewhat remarkable number.
(pss, 27 October 2010 15:23)
Who contributing to this forum has lived through the Vietnam war apart from me? I have worked in Government for 36 years and now I work for myself in Asia. I have made many contacts throughout those years in government. To you, the names of department heads printed in newspapers are just that but to me I now most of them personally.
“The US recorded one combat related death in the entire Kosovo war and 19 non-combat related deaths” This would be the greatest piece of BS ever. Have you not learnt one thing from WikiLeaks publication last week of secret docos that the US Government tells huge lies to its people – Gee do you live under a rock and have no eyes in your head? This is not to be insulting but pure frustration on my part! Wake up!
US soldiers killed in action were collected and placed in semi trailers which had refrigeration faculties and were driven either to the Macedonian or Greek border and then handed over to NATO people – now do you understand? Most were killed with the shooting down of helicopters carrying Special Forces. When that did not work they then changed tactics and started bombing Serb civilian targets.
The US is notorious for its incompetence regarding bombing of targets – during WW2 it was never allowed to bomb during the night – that was left to the British. For example if the US wanted to bomb say Washington then I would suggest you move out of Chicago. Ask the Brits about the recent conflicts in Iraq and how many times the US bombed their own side.
When bodies were taken back to the US relatives were told that they were killed during maneuvers or they would have made up some other story. Having the US media under control who would print otherwise???????

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Leo

pre 13 godina

Read this carefully Serbs and Albanians. Obama is not lifting a finger to help out Albanians or Bosniaks. The Russians don't have a worry from Obama. Clinton's little tour was a farewell tour. The Americans will be busy enough fighting their own ethnic wars to worry about yours and Uncle Sam's next invasions will be Mexico, Venezuela and Cuba(after Fidel dies). Most Americans also increasingly hate Moslems. The 90s are a long time ago.

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KU

pre 13 godina

"In fact, the Serbia army pulled out of Kosovo totally in tact with all its military equipment and minimal loss of life. "
(Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

Thinking about what those soldiers of JNA were likely thinking on June 10 and 11 and 12 of 1999, I agree with you. There is great pride to be found in the simple fact of having remained alive.

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ZMAJ

pre 13 godina

JohnnyC,

Reading your comments very carefully I must say that there are tons of logic wasted.. In a case of any other fictive subject rather than my people you'd be totally right. But, you see.., we're Serbs and not willing to follow the orders..,traditionally. We're too little to leave any powers to prevail, we're too small to loose anything but what's most important is that we're too stupid to be loyal slaves.., we will always get rif of our "try to be" owners, sooner or later.. Forget about your military "doctrine", your money and power, your f-117 and all the arogance of your worlds.. Here you have to deal with a few million real Serbs and your destiny is already written and your cowards pilots wrote the biggest part of it. You dug your own grave in Serbia as any other empire before. Inspite clever, you waste your time and logic on our Enigma.. We will dominate over our properties until we exist and your countries and militaries can always surrender at this point, earlier- better.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
================

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

Jugoslavija, 27 October 2010 21:24)

"You are really very confused, or simply don't understand military operations at all. "

Your don't show anything in your writing about any knowledge of military doctrine, but a political bias and nationalist affinity Albanians ignoring the true facts on the ground.

For your information, Milosevic was not a nationalist, in fact, he probably liked Albanians better than Serbs!

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

However what matters to us is that UN secretary general decided that the interim period which guaranteed Jugoslavia's border is over. Hence as ICJ declared in its decision our declaration of independence is in line with 1244 since 1244 no longer guarantees Jugoslavia's borders.
(johny, 28 October 2010 18:47)

Again, you need to read the 1244 resolution. It say's nothing about independance but substantial autonomy.

The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia.

The ICJ ruling does not solidify independance whatsoever. It only avoided the real issue and covered it with allowing the "declaration of indpendance to be legal" but avoiding the real question over the legality of the seperation of Kosovo from the Repubic if Serbia and the former Yugoslavia.

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.

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Jugoslavija

pre 13 godina

As to your the Serbian military surviving mostly intact. They were allowed to withdraw, otherwise it would have been another "highway of death" (JohnnyC, 28 October 2010 08:06)

The Serbian Generals would be that stupid to withdraw with a highway to death scenario.

What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.

As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.

How could it be otherwise highway to death?

NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.

Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.

A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.

NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens; the Serbian army lost less than 200.

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johny

pre 13 godina

"The interim period before, during or after is qualified with the clause to guarantee the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia , the successor state being Serbia. "

-- Not true. If that was the case ICJ would have decided against it. 1244 does not specify anything after the interim period. You can read it as many times as you want.

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Peggy

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)
-------------------

Arguing without knowledge is a sign of a fool but he keeps coming back day after day to entertain us.
Must admit, at times he frustrates me for a second and then I realize how silly he sounds and even feel pity for him.

I wonder if he is actually EA or Roberto writing under another name.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Fine, then tell us when was the last time the US was prosecuted for any war crimes.
If not why not?
(Peggy, 30 October 2010 05:13)

Peggy, what you are asking is impossible; it's obvious you don't understand much on legal arguments...

Let me introduce some Law 101… No state has ever been prosecuted of war crimes. The reason is simple: a war crime involves individual criminal responsibility. Only a natural person (a human being) can be prosecuted for a war crime. A legal person (for example a state) cannot be prosecuted for war crimes.

So the answer to your question is never because US is not a natural person.

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icj1

pre 13 godina

Peggy, we can explain that to you if you don't understand it, but it's a moot point. It does not have any value for us to start arguing about why X wants 1244 to stay and why Y wants it replaced. Simply it does not matter.
===…==

If it didn't matter then the US wouldn't be trying to hard to get it abolished.

IT DOES MATTER.
(Peggy, 31 October 2010 02:13)

We were discussing about Kosovo, and it doesn’t matter for the legality of Kosovo’s independence…

But if you want to discuss about US, of course it matters for US, because the American taxpayer which is the largest contributor to the UN budget is wasting money for paying millions of dollars per year for nothing (or actually for just receiving 4 reports/year).

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icj1

pre 13 godina

UN resolution 1244 was passed by the security council, the UN secretary General does not have the power to abjudicate law or the text of the law writtin into 1244. The Ahtisarri plan and the so called UN Secretary General "interim period" declaration hold no water against a resolution which was passed by all member states.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

The Secretary General was delegated by the Security Council through resolution 1244 to decide when the interim period was over. If the Secretary General did something that went beyond its power delegated by the Security Council, the Security Council would have immediately corrected that situation. But it didn’t because the Secretary General acted within the powers delegated to it by the Security Council. The Security Council said nowhere in resolution 1244 that it was reserving for itself the right to declare through a second resolution when the interim period was over.


What happened in Iraq is a result of poor military leadership; the leadership of the Serbian army was at teh highest standard and it was proven on the ground in Kosovo.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:39)

“Highest standard”… since when being a certified war criminal is a high standard ?

It’s precisely declarations like this which makes independence the only acceptable solution for Albanians. How can they live in the same state with people who consider certified crimes against Albanians as “high standard”. That’s just an invitation to apply those same “high standards” if Kosovo is again under Serbia.


As part of the Kumonovo technical agreements, the exact times and dates of withdrawal were negotiated in good faith. NATO, CNN and US were schocked to see the footage of Serbian tanks and armoved vehicles moving out of Kosovo fully in tact.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

I don’t remember such “shock”; do you have any reference which shows this global “shock” ?


NATO barely touched the Serbian army in Kosovo, they were so well hidden and entrenched. NATO tried to arm the KLA , but they could not get back into Kosovo as they were sealed off in both the Albanian and FYROM borders.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Dude you are trying to convince us how the Serbian Army was excellent in doing X, Y or Z…. Let’s assume you are correct. It does not matter; what matters is the result. At the end the Serbian army had to do what the other side wanted – i.e. withdraw from Kosovo. So, most likely, the Serbian army was good at the things which did not matter.


Milsoevic strategy was to break the EU alliance and it was working. Germany and Italy were on shaky ground as public opinion was against the bombing while Greece was completely netutral. NATO was planning a ground invastion from Hungary , Albania but Greece was very reluctant to allow NATO troops on its land.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

And Milosevic failed with his strategy


A powerful alliance like NATO does not negotiate unless it has too. General Clark military leadership was a shambles , he was outsmarted by a much smaller enemy and much stronger General Pavkovic of the Serbian army.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

NATO was not there to annihilate Serbia, but to force it to withdraw from Kosovo, as it did. Assuming that Pavkovic was much smarter, he probably was smarter on things that did not matter, because the result was the “stupid” Clark dictated to the “smart” Pavkovic to withdraw from Kosovo. If stupid people are able to achieve their goals and smart people aren’t, I’d love to be “stupid”.


NATO is responsible for killing over 1000 Serbian including Albanian citizens;
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

Well, in a war people are sometime killed (btw that’s not a crime; it’s the nature of war). That’s why before being involved in a war a state has to consider whether there are alternative solutions.


the Serbian army lost less than 200.
(Jugoslavija, 1 November 2010 20:58)

So NATO had a decisive victory (probably the most decisive in history) by losing no one (vs. Serbia’s 200) and fully achieving its objective of getting the Serbian army out of Kosovo.

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