Sandžak dispute over property could escalate

Is there a country anywhere, that has a Muslim population, that is not experiencing difficulties with them? What is it with Muslims, that they cannot live with anyone, except other Muslims - actually, many times they can't get along with each other - Sunni and Shiite, to name a couple. Muslims say they practice the religion of peace, but wherever they are, peace does not exist. Just look at daily news, everywhere, am I wrong?

He said that recent incidents over another piece of property that the city had set aside for a kindergarten, but which this Islamic community claimed as its own, were "a lesson for everyone", and that the state organs will be "careful in their further attempts to snatch the waqf property that we will defend, if need be, with our lives". - Šaćirović
I say, fine, be my guest. You want to be the first to go, Šaćirović? Only Balkan Muslims can simply claim that a property is theirs, without any legal proof, like a deed. Bringing law and order will be difficult, in an area and to a people that have never lived by, or respected the law.

PRN, what in the world do you have to do with Vojvodina, and area that is predominantly Serbian? I think you would just like to see Serbia get smaller, because you don't like Serbs. But too bad, PRN, no more land will be stolen from Serbia, in fact, a lot of it may go back to its rightful owner, all of Kosovo?

PRN, Russia and China are getting stronger, the USA weaker. Please stop your ridiculous illusions. Muslims will not be allowed to steal anymore land in the Balkans, as they will have no one to fight for them. Behave yourself.

Is there a country anywhere, that has a Muslim population, that is not experiencing difficulties with them? What is it with Muslims, that they cannot live with anyone, except other Muslims - actually, many times they can't get along with each other - Sunni and Shiite, to name a couple. Muslims say they practice the religion of peace, but wherever they are, peace does not exist. Just look at daily news, everywhere, am I wrong?
(IUPM, 19 October 2010, 15:27)

Saw this quote on Robert Spencer's site today...

"If Islam teaches peace then its students are flunking."

So true.

There is no way but to declare independence for Sanjak and Vojvodina. Presevo valley will join motherland Kosovo/ALbania, and the remaining Serbia will remain an Russian enclave.

Any other alternative will only ruin the chances for peace.

"I have yet to find Abrahamic religions that have not cause wars, deaths and destructions. They are all the same. Man-made myths and fairy tales." (johny)

-- Religion doesn't kill. Interpretations of religious doctrine for the sake of self-superiority kills. More people have died in the name of non-religious ideologies in the twentieth century (nationalism, political idealism, fascism, communism, "regime change")than all religiously-legitimized wars.

"If Islam teaches peace then its students are flunking."

-- That is indeed true, however the problem with that is that it is half baked to say the least. If any religion teach peace then its students are indeed flunking. I have yet to find Abrahamic religions that have not cause wars, deaths and destructions. They are all the same. Man-made myths and fairy tales.

Even if the Islamic leaders are right which I very much doubt, we should still rather have an kindergarden then religious centre.
I think the whole world is very tired of this religious backwardness. Out of our lives!

"Religion doesn't kill. Interpretations of religious doctrine for the sake of self-superiority kills. "

-- Seeing that PEOPLE DO write the doctrine, not GOD; and seeing that PEOPLE DO interpret it, religion through people and/or people through religion kill.

"More people have died in the name of non-religious ideologies in the twentieth century (nationalism, political idealism, fascism, communism, "regime change")than all religiously-legitimized wars."

-- You may say that but even this can be discussed. For example Nazi Germany while being a fascist state did engage in religious war when it singled out a specific religion (Judaism and the Jews) for total annihilation. That was millions of people; and even though it may have been a non-religious ideology what governed Germany there was a war towards a specific religion for religious reasons. Other examples include the Balkans where along with nationalism, religion was a big factor in the wars of Bosnia and even Croatia.
Then you have the Iranian revolution; and most of the things going on around today in the world.

Having said that what makes religion so dangerous is the blind faith the followers have in the doctrine; which makes them easy to manipulate. So unlike fascism, or communism which most of the world considers to be ridiculous and has managed to cast those who blindly follow such doctrines as renegades; blind religious followers not only are not renegades but often revered for their convictions. This is what makes religion dangerous; the over-lax societal acceptance that religion and religious dogma should not be questioned for its validity but rather blindly accepted.

Zukorlić's 'Red Mosque'? Serbia ain't Pakistan. The sooner Zukorlić figures this out, the better.

Unfortunately a lot of Kuwait/Saudi/crazy extremists islam money (as in wahabbi/strict preachers of islam) has been flooding in to the Balkans either directly as 'humanitarian aid' (mosques in bosnia with imported radical imams), via their NGO's or just gifts (for example the new kuwaiti airport in Albania). These allies of the West are doing their best to upset things.

There is no way but to declare independence for Sanjak and Vojvodina. Presevo valley will join motherland Kosovo/ALbania, and the remaining Serbia will remain an Russian enclave.

Any other alternative will only ruin the chances for peace.
(PRN, 19 October 2010 15:42)

PRN I can't believe you say this, i thought you was Albanian patriot. These land are all Albanian land, part of Greatest Albania so no independence, only become part of Albania. If you don't like then you go to Serbia with your friends.

"Having said that what makes religion so dangerous is the blind faith the followers have in the doctrine; which makes them easy to manipulate." (johny)

-- This is essentially the crux of the matter, but "blind faith" in "doctrine" is certainly something not particular to religion. One can even argue that religion has been replaced with newer, more vociferous, "doctrines" of nationalism, patriotism, and state-worship. If religion is the "opium" of the masses, nationalism is its heroin. Blind faith in doctrine, as you say, is the critical issue. Not religion. A blind faith in any doctrine can make the most rational man do the most irrational thing.

The example you gave of Nazi Germany targeting Jews had little if anything to do with religion per say as it did with a state-sponsored ideology of Jews being racially inferior and politically dangerous. Jews were not targeted because they celebrated Passover. They were targeted because they were scapegoated for all of Germany's problems. Likewise, the Soviet Union sent more people to their deaths in the name of Marxism than any religious zealot's call for Holy War. More innocent Russian Orthodox Christians were killed by the non-religious but highly dogmatic regimes of Lenin and Stalin than any tsar. How many people have willingly marched to war with the full intention of killing someone else because they have the nerve to salute a different tri-color flag? How many people have killed and have been killed in the name of some blindly followed ideology, or uncompromising historical memory where some flying spaghetti monster doesn’t come into the picture? Trust me, even if we were to get rid of all religions, mankind would still find new and intricate ways of trying to kill each other for some self-serving purpose. We'll replace older ideologies with newer ones if it herds people around like sheep.

Religion can certainly be used as a form of legitimization to do the irrational, and a way of absolving one of the sins they are about to commit because they're allegedly doing "God's work". But these people are hardly, if ever, revered by the people they speak on behalf of. I can't think of any religious nutjob widely worshiped for blowing up an abortion clinic. Conversely, the most enlightened religious individuals - those who actually read their religious texts through and through and have come away with a perfect understanding of it - have never picked up a sword. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran pastor renounced nationalism for the Christian philosophy of brotherly love, and died for that belief by people blindly following the doctrines of a national belief.

"Blind faith in doctrine, as you say, is the critical issue. Not religion. A blind faith in any doctrine can make the most rational man do the most irrational thing."

-- I agree on most things you posted. The problem I have with what I quoted above is that I think you brush over the dangers of religion a little to easy. The thing is that why all those dogma's you mentioned have been used for bad and have cause bad the vast majority of the world is able to see them for what they are. For example almost anyone can tell you that ultra-nationalism has cause many wars. Almost anyone can tell you that communism and fascism has caused many many wars. You pick most doctrines and most people will be able to tell you all the bad that they have caused. Societies, well most of them, have reflected on them, have challenged them and taken them head on, have pointed out their fallacy.

Religion is different. Most people, unlike some of us here will not challenge them, will not reflect on them or point out the fallacy they teach. When they do that; they will do for the religion of the others not theirs. The reason is simple. Religion has scared people into not using their brain. Challenge religion and you quickly have to deal with the voluminous propaganda about how you will end up in a lake of fire for eternity. Religion has mankind under its grips unlike any other dogma. That is because mankind, most of the people anyway, are scared of the unknown, they want to believe in something, they want to believe that this is not just a chance, that their life was not simply because of a chance, a probabilistic event of the universe. They want to believe that there is something better than this. They want to believe that after being nice all their lives they will be rewarded. Despite all this want the way to secure their loyalty is through scare tactics, through horrifying them of the alternative even worse eternal end if they don't follow. These options which supposedly last for eternity is what makes religions dangerous. People are scared into abiding in the hope of eternal reward and gratification. None of the other doctrines mankind has come up with even goes close to that.

There is no way but to declare independence for Sanjak and Vojvodina. Presevo valley will join motherland Kosovo/ALbania, and the remaining Serbia will remain an Russian enclave.

Any other alternative will only ruin the chances for peace.

PRN, what in the world do you have to do with Vojvodina, and area that is predominantly Serbian? I think you would just like to see Serbia get smaller, because you don't like Serbs. But too bad, PRN, no more land will be stolen from Serbia, in fact, a lot of it may go back to its rightful owner, all of Kosovo?

Is there a country anywhere, that has a Muslim population, that is not experiencing difficulties with them? What is it with Muslims, that they cannot live with anyone, except other Muslims - actually, many times they can't get along with each other - Sunni and Shiite, to name a couple. Muslims say they practice the religion of peace, but wherever they are, peace does not exist. Just look at daily news, everywhere, am I wrong?

Zukorlić's 'Red Mosque'? Serbia ain't Pakistan. The sooner Zukorlić figures this out, the better.

Unfortunately a lot of Kuwait/Saudi/crazy extremists islam money (as in wahabbi/strict preachers of islam) has been flooding in to the Balkans either directly as 'humanitarian aid' (mosques in bosnia with imported radical imams), via their NGO's or just gifts (for example the new kuwaiti airport in Albania). These allies of the West are doing their best to upset things.

"If Islam teaches peace then its students are flunking."

-- That is indeed true, however the problem with that is that it is half baked to say the least. If any religion teach peace then its students are indeed flunking. I have yet to find Abrahamic religions that have not cause wars, deaths and destructions. They are all the same. Man-made myths and fairy tales.

He said that recent incidents over another piece of property that the city had set aside for a kindergarten, but which this Islamic community claimed as its own, were "a lesson for everyone", and that the state organs will be "careful in their further attempts to snatch the waqf property that we will defend, if need be, with our lives". - Šaćirović
I say, fine, be my guest. You want to be the first to go, Šaćirović? Only Balkan Muslims can simply claim that a property is theirs, without any legal proof, like a deed. Bringing law and order will be difficult, in an area and to a people that have never lived by, or respected the law.

There is no way but to declare independence for Sanjak and Vojvodina. Presevo valley will join motherland Kosovo/ALbania, and the remaining Serbia will remain an Russian enclave.

Any other alternative will only ruin the chances for peace.
(PRN, 19 October 2010 15:42)

PRN I can't believe you say this, i thought you was Albanian patriot. These land are all Albanian land, part of Greatest Albania so no independence, only become part of Albania. If you don't like then you go to Serbia with your friends.

Even if the Islamic leaders are right which I very much doubt, we should still rather have an kindergarden then religious centre.
I think the whole world is very tired of this religious backwardness. Out of our lives!

PRN, Russia and China are getting stronger, the USA weaker. Please stop your ridiculous illusions. Muslims will not be allowed to steal anymore land in the Balkans, as they will have no one to fight for them. Behave yourself.

"Religion doesn't kill. Interpretations of religious doctrine for the sake of self-superiority kills. "

-- Seeing that PEOPLE DO write the doctrine, not GOD; and seeing that PEOPLE DO interpret it, religion through people and/or people through religion kill.

"More people have died in the name of non-religious ideologies in the twentieth century (nationalism, political idealism, fascism, communism, "regime change")than all religiously-legitimized wars."

-- You may say that but even this can be discussed. For example Nazi Germany while being a fascist state did engage in religious war when it singled out a specific religion (Judaism and the Jews) for total annihilation. That was millions of people; and even though it may have been a non-religious ideology what governed Germany there was a war towards a specific religion for religious reasons. Other examples include the Balkans where along with nationalism, religion was a big factor in the wars of Bosnia and even Croatia.
Then you have the Iranian revolution; and most of the things going on around today in the world.

Having said that what makes religion so dangerous is the blind faith the followers have in the doctrine; which makes them easy to manipulate. So unlike fascism, or communism which most of the world considers to be ridiculous and has managed to cast those who blindly follow such doctrines as renegades; blind religious followers not only are not renegades but often revered for their convictions. This is what makes religion dangerous; the over-lax societal acceptance that religion and religious dogma should not be questioned for its validity but rather blindly accepted.

Is there a country anywhere, that has a Muslim population, that is not experiencing difficulties with them? What is it with Muslims, that they cannot live with anyone, except other Muslims - actually, many times they can't get along with each other - Sunni and Shiite, to name a couple. Muslims say they practice the religion of peace, but wherever they are, peace does not exist. Just look at daily news, everywhere, am I wrong?
(IUPM, 19 October 2010, 15:27)

Saw this quote on Robert Spencer's site today...

"If Islam teaches peace then its students are flunking."

So true.

"I have yet to find Abrahamic religions that have not cause wars, deaths and destructions. They are all the same. Man-made myths and fairy tales." (johny)

-- Religion doesn't kill. Interpretations of religious doctrine for the sake of self-superiority kills. More people have died in the name of non-religious ideologies in the twentieth century (nationalism, political idealism, fascism, communism, "regime change")than all religiously-legitimized wars.

"Having said that what makes religion so dangerous is the blind faith the followers have in the doctrine; which makes them easy to manipulate." (johny)

-- This is essentially the crux of the matter, but "blind faith" in "doctrine" is certainly something not particular to religion. One can even argue that religion has been replaced with newer, more vociferous, "doctrines" of nationalism, patriotism, and state-worship. If religion is the "opium" of the masses, nationalism is its heroin. Blind faith in doctrine, as you say, is the critical issue. Not religion. A blind faith in any doctrine can make the most rational man do the most irrational thing.

The example you gave of Nazi Germany targeting Jews had little if anything to do with religion per say as it did with a state-sponsored ideology of Jews being racially inferior and politically dangerous. Jews were not targeted because they celebrated Passover. They were targeted because they were scapegoated for all of Germany's problems. Likewise, the Soviet Union sent more people to their deaths in the name of Marxism than any religious zealot's call for Holy War. More innocent Russian Orthodox Christians were killed by the non-religious but highly dogmatic regimes of Lenin and Stalin than any tsar. How many people have willingly marched to war with the full intention of killing someone else because they have the nerve to salute a different tri-color flag? How many people have killed and have been killed in the name of some blindly followed ideology, or uncompromising historical memory where some flying spaghetti monster doesn’t come into the picture? Trust me, even if we were to get rid of all religions, mankind would still find new and intricate ways of trying to kill each other for some self-serving purpose. We'll replace older ideologies with newer ones if it herds people around like sheep.

Religion can certainly be used as a form of legitimization to do the irrational, and a way of absolving one of the sins they are about to commit because they're allegedly doing "God's work". But these people are hardly, if ever, revered by the people they speak on behalf of. I can't think of any religious nutjob widely worshiped for blowing up an abortion clinic. Conversely, the most enlightened religious individuals - those who actually read their religious texts through and through and have come away with a perfect understanding of it - have never picked up a sword. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German Lutheran pastor renounced nationalism for the Christian philosophy of brotherly love, and died for that belief by people blindly following the doctrines of a national belief.

"Blind faith in doctrine, as you say, is the critical issue. Not religion. A blind faith in any doctrine can make the most rational man do the most irrational thing."

-- I agree on most things you posted. The problem I have with what I quoted above is that I think you brush over the dangers of religion a little to easy. The thing is that why all those dogma's you mentioned have been used for bad and have cause bad the vast majority of the world is able to see them for what they are. For example almost anyone can tell you that ultra-nationalism has cause many wars. Almost anyone can tell you that communism and fascism has caused many many wars. You pick most doctrines and most people will be able to tell you all the bad that they have caused. Societies, well most of them, have reflected on them, have challenged them and taken them head on, have pointed out their fallacy.

Religion is different. Most people, unlike some of us here will not challenge them, will not reflect on them or point out the fallacy they teach. When they do that; they will do for the religion of the others not theirs. The reason is simple. Religion has scared people into not using their brain. Challenge religion and you quickly have to deal with the voluminous propaganda about how you will end up in a lake of fire for eternity. Religion has mankind under its grips unlike any other dogma. That is because mankind, most of the people anyway, are scared of the unknown, they want to believe in something, they want to believe that this is not just a chance, that their life was not simply because of a chance, a probabilistic event of the universe. They want to believe that there is something better than this. They want to believe that after being nice all their lives they will be rewarded. Despite all this want the way to secure their loyalty is through scare tactics, through horrifying them of the alternative even worse eternal end if they don't follow. These options which supposedly last for eternity is what makes religions dangerous. People are scared into abiding in the hope of eternal reward and gratification. None of the other doctrines mankind has come up with even goes close to that.