158 injured, 249 arrested in Belgrade riots

I would like to express my solidarity from Italy to the Serbian citizens who reacted to the people gathered in Belgrade to insult our culture and civilization by
attending the deviant pride parade.
Nontheless I have to express my solidarity also to the Serbian police officers injured during the clashes.
I wish that the next pride parade could be organized in an Islamic state so that the attendees could appreciate the welcome of the Muslim people.

Serbia should not let the mindlessness of a minority of neanderthals prevent them from continuing to hold this rally in future. It is the 21st century, we are no longer living under mind-numbing religious orthodoxy.

My thoughts are with the police who defended open-mindedness and maturity against the forces of repression and regression. I hope they all recover quickly.

As for the muppets who opposed the rally, I wish that they see the stupidity and xenophobia of their position.

wish speedy recovery to all police personnel.

Well, this circus event has certainly brought out the Serb haters.

It should be fairly obvious by now that forcing this issue prematurely was a mistake. So we had 6000 protesters and 6000 police to protect 1000 marchers (with many of them foreigners). With that in mind, it should be obvious that Serbia is just not ready.

What we really need to look at here is the number of participants. In all seriousness 1000 is simply not enough to justify the effort considering many of them were foreigners. If Serbians themselves do not have the desire to participate and the protests against them draw a significant number then why should we put all this effort and police protection just to satisfy the EU?

This attitude is common throughout the Balkans and not just Serbia, however, it is only Serbia's response that makes the front pages around the world and provides more ammunition to the Serb haters.

Now I personally don't have an issue with pride parades but at the same time, forcing something on people that just aren't ready is a recipe for disaster. Personally I would stop future parades until there are at least 10,000 people prepared to participate. I thank God no one died yesterday.

What happened in Belgrade on Sunday is really revolting.It is not the first time that Belgrade is demolished. Let us remember the apprehension of Radovan Karadzic,the man who is not the citizen of Serbia and the violence erupted afterwards in Belgrade. Then, the riots in Belgrade after the declaration of Kosovo independence. Belgrade and its citizens were the victims that suffered great demolition ,damage and material loss. On Sunday ,the gay parade provided hooligans ,supported by hardlined nationalists, a pretext for ravaging Belgrade. The aftermath of their ravages is 158 injured people,a large majority of them policemen, demolished shops, cars, political parties’ headquarters,embassies and so on. Cruelty of the hooligans has not been seen so far. They inflicted injuries to the policemen not to wound ,but to kill. They approached the restrained policemen a few steps and hit them with a four pounds heavy stones.I really feel sorry for the injured policemen and demolished Belgrade.It is obvious that the hooligans,most of whom were teenagers , had tutors and logistics. The question now is who is to compensate the great material loss committed to the citizens of Belgrade. In my opinion, the hooligans, organizers, parents and members of families of hooligans should bear the cost for damages of Belgrade and its citizens. The expensive cars( most of felons have it) , houses and apartments,computers and the others assets should be confiscated for the compensation of the great loss. The citizens are not supposed to have their share in bearing the cost for the damage.

The police reaction was obviously mild and I can only guess at their reasons (such as concealed approval by some of the authorities, or perhaps their wish not to make the riots into the street war, thus loosing face in the eyes of Western Europe). However, if I were them, I would've used rubber bullets on these teen and 20-something nazi sociopaths, let them wallow in their blood, with broken ribs and jaws, for a change. Since the only language they speak is violence, let the police speak it up, that would be a real defeat for these "boys", the only one they know. Then 10 years of forced labor would do wonders to building the country.

@ (Peter Parker, 11 October 2010 10:08)

Did you march yesterday Peter? Probably right up your street!!
I sympathise with the residents of Belgrade for having this mindless march forced upon them. I never feel the need as a god fearing hetrosexual to get a group of people together to confirm my sexuality. Why should the gay community have this exclusive right to confirm what is in effect a private matter between a person and their god.
Looking at the anti Serbian vitriolic comments the last 2 days angers me. If we do a basic google search re; riot and EU lets see how many different stories there are in nearly every EU capital City - Annually for the last few years. You people need to get real...

I am proud that the people have stood up to a government who roles over at a moments notice to please the 'WEST'. Next time though do it with the vote and get Tadic out so he does not lead you into the s**t that is the EU.

I am lucky that I live in a country that does not allow such marches to take place.

Regards

Pozdrav iz Bahreina

I just read what happened. I live in Chile, southamerica, and i really hope serbia and the rest of the world abandon this behaviors against diversity. They say they want to protect life and family... well, i rather my children to see happy and proud of themself people than a group of violent and full of hate conservatives.

It almost normal that in each society there are right-wing, but also left-wings radicals. The problem in Serbia is that a significant number of citizens are frustrated with other problems and it is easy to find the way to protest. It is a Serbian specific that if it comes to some other issues such as nationalism, proud and similar, almost all the Serbs are radicals including the goverment and even police. Take the reaction after the UDI of Kosovo. Or take the banal example of futball fans. Everybody should blame the very confusing work and message of the goverment which is not able to lead the country towards a civilised and democratic path and support the civile courage.

Mr David J Jones: I never feel the need as a god fearing hetrosexual to get a group of people together to confirm my sexuality. Why should the gay community have this exclusive right to confirm what is in effect a private matter between a person and their god.

Firstly, you are not discriminated against or subject to violence because you are heterosexual. Homosexuals are - of course they want to protest.

Heterosexuals get in groups and demostrate their sexuality publically every single day. You also have mass weddings in Belgrade and other cities and you were allowed to protest peacefully against the gay parade the day before.

Gay people don't want to destroy the family or traditions. They just don't want to be subject to violence and discrimination. Why does that bother youso much?

The international silence that greeted the violent break-up of the "gay parade" in Moslem Sarajevo last year is instructive when compared to this hypocritical out- pouring directed against the Serbs. On the day this violence took place, the British police were busy clubbing English protesters against sharia who were being attacked by Muslim counter-protesters. Some right to free expression in England! These rioters should receive the same treatment Albanians get for rioting, destroying property and killing and injuring Serbs in Mitrovica-catch and release.

One funny thing that came out of this whole fiasco, is that Tadic's government who allowed this to happen, look like complete fools to the rest of the world.

Tadic and his cronies try so so hard to appease their western masters, but no matter how hard they try, they just look like the fools that they are.

This failure of an event shows how Tadic's government is disconnected from Serbia's reality.

On a side not I hope the police who were injured recover quickly, as they were just doing their job.

The blame rests on Tadic's government, who should of sent the police to Kosovo, rather than make them fight other Serbs in the streets of Belgrade.

The current government is no better than Milosevic's government.

On second thought, Milosevic DID send the police to Kosovo.

Hmm.

If people think we are passionate about not being gay then you should see how passionate we are about Kosovo and Metohija.

--The demonstrators hurled stones and miscellaneous objects at police, overturned garbage bins, set fire to several cars, set fire to the Democratic Party's headquarters, junked the RTS state broadcaster headquarters and demolished the Socialist Party of Serbia's and Liberal Democratic Party's offices in the city and also attacked the Belgrade mosque and several embassies, in addition to looting several stores.

The violence lasted for hours while police used tear gas and armored vehicles to disperse the rioters. Downtown Belgrade was closed for traffic until the afternoon, Beta news agency reported. --

just one day after, and i shudder to think what it was like sunday on the streets of belgrade. actually i watched some of the "fun" of yr hooligans (so called) and fascists (more accurate term) and it was horrifying. by any normal human standards, not just american or fr frisco...

yes, THIS time the police did the right thing. they were obviously prepared for attacks, though not nearly prepared for the vehemence and those sweet molotov cocktails. that was the "spontaneous" response of the patriots?! give me a break. it was well organized, and financed. and LED. not just a bunch of crazy-ass teens, that is so incredibly naive, willingly ignorant.

I have seen and followed such pride marches/parades for... let's just say years. and yes, at the beginning they are tricky, can be a bit dangerous, with a limited # of brave souls (i know specifically about detroit, but many others as well) but over time there are gradually larger #s and more general acceptance. this is true all over the world, except in the worst repressive regimes, communist, communist-like, or theocratic. in a place like iran it is unthinkable, but so much is unthinkable under that hellish regime.

the call to end the Blgd Pride parade, or "temporarily" put it on hold is mistaken, and in my view quite reactionary and giving in to the fascists. it is perfectly normal that such parades are held on an annual basis. esp.ly in the balkans, they are an absolute necessity for lgbt people and for their frnds and allies as well.

the key is for non-lgbt persons to join the march/parade, which will swell the #s and allow for the slightly more timid, "typical" lgbt persons to come out onto the streets. believe me, i know of what i speak.

as for the broader issues of support for minorities and inclusivity in the society, that needs to be openly supported (in my opinion) at the pride parade. but holding a separate march against prejudice, in favor of human rights -- i think that is a great idea. perhaps it could be held on intl human rights day.

some of the reactions here are a bit bizarre. along the line of: we have homophobia everywhere, sarajevo, new york -- don't blame the poor serbs!! it is a bit idiotic and disingenuous. i have NEVER seen a reaction like yeserday to a pride march -- ever. sometimes marchers have been attacked and arrested by police (think belarus, moscow), often there are homophobic demonstrators -- certainly pressures to prevent such marches. right wing politicians and extreme fundamentalist types. but such rioting of 6000 people thru the city central -- no. such a reaction is much more a reflection of extreme internal anger and frustration, contradictions w/in the society, than having anything to do w/ a pride march or lgbt persons. Pride as Pretext.

there is a great deal of ambivalence in serbian society, not to mention govt, regarding lgbt rights, minority rights, human rights. no one can deny it -- we read it here every damn day! even after the rioting, there is sympathy, for the right wing! and yr govt, w/its contstant state of nationalist and xenophobic agitation (bosnia -- kosovo--bosnia -- kosovo...) never gives it a rest. then, due to extreme, unrelenting pressure from EU diplomats, the blgd regime is "forced" to go thru w/ the parade, all the while its mainstream leadership letting us know how UN-enthusiastic they really are. so what should we expect?

anyway, it was some frightening footage, and no one this time can say it was all cnn lies, christiane amanpour lies...

i spoke w my bosnian frnd, who watched this unfold on his bosnian channels here (so called federation and RS media). yes, he admitted, it did feel reminiscent of some of the uglier moments of the 90s. me too.

as for the police: police are not always the frnds of human rights, to say the least. and the serbian police... but yesterday, they did bravely protect the pride marchers, while carrying the brunt of the fascist attacks. that was not so very nice, in fact one can say it was a bit of a set up. i wish all of those injured a speedy recovery, and hope that next time, next year, belgrade will be much better prepared to host its pride parade. without massive rioting.

thanks again to all those who supported PRIDE! it's progress...

roberto
frisco

ps all of the internationals, so called, did not "ignore" what transpired in sarajevo, 2008. i, for one, wrote an open letter, that was translated and carried in Dani, which is one of their best periodicals. there was also a short film, very well done, which played at SF frameline film fest, to much acclaim. hint, hint...

All that the failed parade proved was that gays are hated by mainstream Serbia which protested with violence, peaceful protest & ignoring. After this parade LESS SERBS will be openly & militantly gay. Most paraders were foreigners & Serb & ex-Yugoslav paid NGO employees.

They should arrest Amfilohije for inciting hate and violence with his hate speech over the weekend. He is responsible for this violence. Religion as always causing violence, crimes, and in some cases murders.

Qui bono he?
Obviously the foreign agent provocateurs knew exactly how to provoke, how to strike a blow to the heart of Serbia and how serbia would respond to such a blatant aggression against its soul, its culture and traditions, hence the outcome and hence the varming up of the satanization of serbs in western parroting neanderthal media.

Yet another reason for the incumbent puppet regime to stay on their knees and take yet more threats and demands from their masters, USA & IMF.

I dont say the "hooligans" (we are all "hooligans" now) did the right thing but their anger and frustration against the sell-outs, the regime, the american aggressions and their export of perverted trends are very very genuin and majority of serbs feels the same.
Simply put, this was a calculated insult and aggression. Nobody, except the foreign provocateurs and a few domestic Otpor™ leftovers, wanted that sexual provocation on our streets.

In all nations, theree are sociopaths and organized gangs who take opportunity of parades to get to the streets, and vandalize the stores and cars, and burn everything.

Democracy cannot do much against such vandalss.

After many years living in a country where 3,2 million people join a pride parade that is fully supported by federal government, Governor of state and city major - with top politicians attending to the celebration, I may have become a bit naive, but anyway... peace to you all.

BTW - congratulations to the brave and professional police who used a minimum of force to control the situation and concentrated on defending the civilians. You can see the progress Serbia has made when you compare their behavior to that of the police in Milosevic's day. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with what the crowds are protesting, but of competency. They've come a long way.

Such sad and needless violence. And worse, most of it perpetrated on those who were there to protect the rights of other human beings. Until people can learn to behave like considerate human beings, there should not be any parades. In any nation there is always one segment of the population that cannot be happy unless they are inflicting harm on others.

.but all they could get were about 1000 participants. Until they can get at least 10,000 (with most of them local), what's the point of having them?.

Zoran I wish you had assumed this position when that waste of time right wing daily protest on Trg Republike which was blocking the traffic regularly was taking place!

So your position would be to ban protests unless more than 10,000 are in attendence? I disagree with your position, people have the right to protest. Democracy should not be reduced because hooligans and lawbreakers go on the rampage. Rather hooligans and lawbreakers should be stopped.

There is one other pretty simple thing you forgot to consider. There may be hundreds or even thousands of people who are too frightened to attend a protest if thousands of violent thugs are baying for their blood.
Pretty logical to assume this is the case. Think about it.

And this 'we are not ready' position is such a cop out.

As I pointed out to the poster Danilo, bands of young male thugs 6,000 or not does not equate society.

You do not appease, you do what is right.

They should arrest Amfilohije for inciting hate and violence with his hate speech over the weekend. He is responsible for this violence. Religion as always causing violence, crimes, and in some cases murders.
(johny, 11 October 2010 19:59)
====================

You cannot be serious.

They should arrest you for hate speech.

"I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them. "

People are never ready for them until they've been held for a few years. The parades start as demonstrations of defiance by a few brave/foolhardy/naive souls that are attacked, at least verbally, by the self-satisfied but "threatened" majority. The parades encourage others to come out to those around them and the straight, majority community begins to realize that people they've had no problem with for years are gay (etc.) and come to realize that sexuality is only one aspect of a person's being. Eventually even the churches (well, some churches) begin preaching that God made everyone as they are and it is not up to Man to decide who is God's child and who is not. And THEN the parades become celebrations. So far, as far as I know, the parades of pride and defiance have always preceded the parades of celebration.

I live in Massachusetts, the first state to allow gay marriage in the US. It was a contentious issue for years, then the law was changed, and the legislature failed to override the law - and now, everybody who is not directly concerned seems to have forgotten all about it. It's really amazing how rapidly people get used to the new "normal." I think this is really what the protesters are most afraid of - not that homosexuality will be forcibly imposed upon themselves, but that the majority will cease to pay attention to the issue, certainly not to feel outraged by it.

Amer,

Your first post explained very well the need for these parades to go forward in societies still gripped with significant homophobia.

A fellow resident of MA, I also have observed the waning opposition to legalized gay marriage since 2004. Surprise, surprise -- people have a lot more to worry about, like their jobs, favorite sports teams, etc.

But we in Massachusetts live in one reality, and those in Serbia -- to some extent -- another. You and I are immersed in a society heavily infused with messages that encourage tolerance, equality and multiculturalism, whereas Serbs don't hear quite as much about such values. I won't say that such ideas are nowhere to be found in Serbia, but in my experience, they are in far shorter supply than what I've encountered in Boston over the years. I still remember vividly the racist comments toward the Chinese immigrants of New Belgrade I heard from a very cultured Serb I met a few years back.

Zoran,

I understand your feelings to some degree, but in the end, all criticism must be focused on the bigots who chose to attack police forces sent to protect a small group of peaceful protesters. That Serbia "isn't ready" for such public demonstrations of support for homosexuals is no excuse for not allowing such demonstrations to take place. The only way Serbs ever will be ready is through exposure.

Massimo, are you really Italian???
(Ema, 11 October 2010 12:19)

Yes, I am. That said I am not willing to disclose my address and my Carta d'Identità number.

Riots like this happen every weekend somewhere in Europe. For example after soccer games and tennis matches. In my city of Malmoe protesters fought police because the israeli tennis team was coming to town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfiwBsuGu7E

http://www.thelocal.se/16458/20081219/

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/03/raw-video-riots-in-malmo-sweden.html

I guess such behaviour can occur anywhere except in Serbia.

I am albanian, but I am with the majority of the serbian people on this one.The gay people of the Balkans can go to Nederlands or Sweden.

Violence in an attempt to suppress a gathering of people celebrating, or protesting an event in any free and open society sends a message to the world. Attacking police, destroying property, causing harm to those who peacefully disagree and on innocent bystander's only makes that message louder. The timing of this civil disorder has to be questioned. The "pride" event was scheduled for a time when the world's attention was drawn to Belgrade by a state visit of America's top diplomat. The thinking was with more than normal attention on Serbia, the event would be well protected by government official's concerned with world opinion, which as we saw was the case. The same logic was applied by right wing extremists wanting to show the current government as weak and unable to protect citizen's even in the capital of this republic. A few well placed agitator's were able to stir up a mob-mentality in which many who would never normally consider violence against property let alone against fellow Serbian's became pawn's in a political struggle for power. Sunday's events may be new to the Serbian Republic, shocking, violent and a cause of debate for months to come, but the root cause is as old as human history and have occurred in every free nation on the planet to one degree or another. If the court of world opinion allows last Sunday's violence to paint Serbia once again as a country to be isolated and ignored because of the manipulations of a few power hungry ultra-nationalist, it will be us who are wrong, the world who should be ashamed and hypocrisy our rule of law. As an American, I know from our history the growing pains a free and democratic society endures as it grows and flourishes. We should, we must, give Serbia it's well earned opportunity to show it's the rule of law which every Serbian wants in this nation and allow the government the time and chance to do exactly what it's promised it's citizen's and the world it intends to do, to prosecute to the fullest extent of it's laws any and all persons responsible for instigating the crimes committed by Serb's against Serb's. It's what any of us would expect if we were once again in the shoes of every Serbian citizen outraged by Sunday's events. The United Kingdom has shown a very short memory delighting in reporting the civil unrest in Belgrade, forgetting it's own past, and the reputation of it's citizen's all over the EU as "soccer hooligan's". The French gloat of it's citizen's "peaceful" demonstrations when unhappy, forgetting Paris burned for weeks in full blown riots mere years ago in civil unrest by it's immigrant's rage at what they saw as discrimination. My own country reporting biased stories, forgetting our own past "civil unrest" over many issues. I've lived in Belgrade long enough to know the vast majority of Serbian citizen's are the same as the vast majority of American's, Englishmen, Frenchmen, as any of us. And if the world condemns an entire nation on the actions of a few of it's people will be the most hypocritical, most criminal act perpetrated last Sunday.

Democtaric Republic of Serbia

What concerns me here most of all is not so much the Pride Parade but just how ill equiped the police ware to deal with such a situation. The violance has got to stop and those responsible should be made to learn a lesson!

Wishing quick recovery to all those injured on 10th October.

I don't agree with pride parades either and think they do more harm than good for gay/straight relations.
(pss, 11 October 2010 13:47)
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You read wrong. I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them. This was forced upon Serbians and even though the government complied and provided adequate police protection, instead of praising the government and police for allowing such a parade, the western press and Serb haters used it as more ammunition against Serbia.

With a population of 10 million, Serbia couldn't get more than a few hundred Serbians to participate in this parade. That's really telling how much support it gets from Serbians themselves. This parade was sponsored by the west with many of them participating (including members of NGOs), but all they could get were about 1000 participants. Until they can get at least 10,000 (with most of them local), what's the point of having them?

You are right though, this parade did more damage than good at bridging differences between gay and straight people. Instead of the west admiting this policy failed and instead of praising the government and police, it decided to yet again blame our nation.

I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them.
(Zoran, 11 October 2010 15:19)

Sadly, a civilized peaceful protest is not somewhat on Balkans what people are used to. There is a pretty long way. And this kind of violence does happen in the "West" as well, so not much for them ("West") to be proud of.

Maybe few countries do not know it (Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway comes in my mind), but "nordic" countries have other social problems like alcohol and with that the Balkan region is much better off.

It is really amusing that such essentially "non-event" makes so much feelings.
I lived in Santa Clara county from 1994 to 2008. During these 14 years I did not even know, San Jose has a "Gay Pride" parade and it's pretty commercial (the way I really dislike!) too.

Otherwise judging from the pictures yesterday's parade was pretty basic or I would even say, humble. I did not see anything provoking... besides from the VERY BIG foreign presence.

Zoran so by your reckoning various G8 and other G protests should be banned because they cost too much to police?

After all not just a percentage of the protestors in these cases are foreigners - sometimes the majority of protestors attending are from another country.

And they are not always large demonstrations either, but they cost the taxpayer a lot of money.

I maintain that the right to peaceful protest be allowed.

No, it is not those 'priders' causing the expense. Do you see any of them smashing up or setting fire to Belgrade and stealing from shops - yep the hooligans did it again this time, as they did last time? Did you see any of the 'priders' fighting the police for no reason whatever?

But if we want to talk about saving money, perhaps we should think about implementing the British model of policing to control the hooligans by penning them in. That will minimise the descrution and reduce police costs.

Perhaps new laws should also be considered to press charges against those that are seen comitting (in person or on camera) criminal damage which involves them or their family paying the price of that criminal damage?

Finally we have not tried draconian sentences yet. In most cases I accept they don't work but this method has not been attempted to deal with the problem of hooliganism yet in Serbia.

Zoran, you might support sexual parades and even worse unspeakable things to come in any depraved god-less anglo-american western society, but in orthodox Serbia? Where is YOUR pride man?

Being "ready" means being mental and spiritual raped and that is truly the worst and ultimate aggression Serbia can expect from her "western partners".

"I am albanian, but I am with the majority of the serbian people on this one.The gay people of the Balkans can go to Nederlands or Sweden.
(Murik, 11 October 2010 23:56)"

I'm sorry, just where did you read that the majority of Serbs are homophobes?

(Zoran, 11 October 2010 12:13)
I don't agree with pride parades either and think they do more harm than good for gay/straight relations. Having said that, I notice a common theme in all your posts, it is everyone elses fault and not Serbians. Stand up and let Serbians accept some responsibility for violence they enact.

Zoran no I don't understand.
We are talking about the right to assemble, provided protestors / paraders respect the law either you support the right to assemble or not.

Now you are trying to confuse the issue to make a political point.

So make your mind up, are you against protests by those with a high foreign presence or not (like G8 protests) as you suggested was the case? Or is cost (and foreigners in a protests) not an issue now? Rather you support those rights to assemble on an arbitrary basis?

It's just so sad how far Belgrade and Serbia have fallen. I used to love my visits to Yugoslavia when I was younger and identified very closely with the country and as a Serb. But it seems with every passing day I feel less connection and increasingly revulsion. These born again nationalists have truly been destroying the very nation they claim to love and want to protect for over 20 years now. And the vast majority of Serbs seem unwilling to condemn them and emphatically choose a new path. Do they want to live in a country like Saudi Arabia where the morals police goes around the streets enforcing its fundamentalist rules? Do all of these people going on ad nauseam about tradition want to go back to being illiterate peasants living in zadrugas with their extended families? Do they want to go back to arranged marriages and women wearing headscarves? The morality of the village can no longer guide us in modern society. We have education and science now. We have been given the tools to educate ourselves and thereby to think more complexly. The problem is that many people do not want to think. They would rather fantasize about some mythical pure Serbia and impose these impossible (and not necessarily desirable) ideals on everyone else. Just because I'm an ethnic Serb doesn't mean I have to live, think and believe in some narrowly defined way.

Massimo, are you really Italian???

Perhaps we all have the wrong idea of this whole thing. Perhaps this is the correct approach.

[link]
(JohnnyC, 11 October 2010, 12:44)

Lol... classic!

Post-Milosevic Serbian tolerance!

'If we had a large Serbian turnout at the parade then I would reconsider'

How would you expect a large turnout when their physical safety is threatened - and there is no question about it if they spot you were at the parade they will beat the living daylights out of you.

How many people would go to any gathering under that kind of threat?

Perhaps we all have the wrong idea of this whole thing. Perhaps this is the correct approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aotlEpmAFVQ

So your position would be to ban protests unless more than 10,000 are in attendence? I disagree with your position, people have the right to protest.
--
No bganon, in general I wouldn't ban protests of any size. However, if we have a parade that requires 6000 police and a huge amount of state resources for something that is basically imposed on us by foreigners and can only convince a few hundred Serbians to participate with potential to cause major destruction in our city then I think common sense needs to be applied.

If you didn't notice, this was reported on the front page of many western press outlets and has caused damage to Serbia's reputation once again by the Serb haters.

If you didn't know, even the UK has many conditions on protests and even more so in London lately (especially in front of parliament).

I'm sure those protests in Trg would have caused some inconvenience (which was probably the point) but it didn't cause mass destruction and didn't require a huge amount of state resources.

There is a time and place for everything. Although I support pride parades in general I wouldn't want to impose them on people that simply aren't ready.

i have NEVER seen a reaction like yeserday to a pride march -- ever.
(roberto, 11 October 2010 21:02)

This is the only part I disagree. The reaction yesterday was typically Serb (OK, also typically "Albanian" or "Croatian"). If they (Serbs, Croats, Albanians) don't like what they see - they will freak out and punch you in the nose, often literally. As bad as it is, there is a WORSE scenario. It happened in an E.U. country very recently - but of course it wasn't reported as much about as about Sarajevo, ZG or BG.

What happened: our friends made preparations for WEEKS before the parade, "securing" critical spots in buildings ABOVE the demonstrators. They also prepared special chemical weaponry, intent not for some nose-punching but for MAIMING and possibly KILLING the ones in lgbt precession. These were eggs with yolk sucked out and replaced with deadly strong acid.

During the gay parade literally a rain of acid bombs was pouring down, with nearly nowhere to run. Luckily, no one was killed - but it wasn't intent that way.

Arrests? Jail term? Nothing. All we did hear "bad boys". Now compared with that the situation in Belgrade is super-duper. And that country is in E.U.

----

sometimes marchers have been attacked and arrested by police (think belarus, moscow),
(roberto, 11 October 2010 21:02)

Yes, but at least no acid. And - btw - our friend Luzhkov, the super-communist turned super-pravoslav and super-corrupt mayor of Moscow is history. And not just history. Medvedyev was asked about Luzhkov and the question was why L. had to "step down". Medvedyev corrected: "he wasn't forced to step down - he was FIRED".

It's a big difference because in this region - unlike U.S. being forced out of job is considered a much bigger disgrace. So (at least in ex-Soviet Union and Hungary) the "forcing out of job" is done somewhat more gently, to preserve the honor. In RARE cases it is done without any honor consideration, it's comparable to "firing as disciplinary action" in the States. Now, to make you happy: your "friend" Luzhkov who forbad the lgbt demo in Moscow was "fired in disciplinary action". Good riddance.

Zoran so by your reckoning various G8 and other G protests should be banned because they cost too much to police?
(bganon, 11 October 2010 22:52)
--
You have confused yourself. We had a pride parade and a protest that followed. We have a G8 summit and protests that follow. I am not referring to the protests here as they can go ahead, it's the parade and summit that you need to compare. Understand?

bganon, we should expect foreigners in anti-globalisation protests because it is a global issue. A pride parade in Belgrade is a Serbian issue. I stick by my opinion, if the risks are high and Serbian support is low then we really need to be more considerate to the local population and not the foreigners pushing the issue. If we had a large Serbian turnout at the parade then I would reconsider.

I would like to express my solidarity from Italy to the Serbian citizens who reacted to the people gathered in Belgrade to insult our culture and civilization by
attending the deviant pride parade.
Nontheless I have to express my solidarity also to the Serbian police officers injured during the clashes.
I wish that the next pride parade could be organized in an Islamic state so that the attendees could appreciate the welcome of the Muslim people.

Qui bono he?
Obviously the foreign agent provocateurs knew exactly how to provoke, how to strike a blow to the heart of Serbia and how serbia would respond to such a blatant aggression against its soul, its culture and traditions, hence the outcome and hence the varming up of the satanization of serbs in western parroting neanderthal media.

Yet another reason for the incumbent puppet regime to stay on their knees and take yet more threats and demands from their masters, USA & IMF.

I dont say the "hooligans" (we are all "hooligans" now) did the right thing but their anger and frustration against the sell-outs, the regime, the american aggressions and their export of perverted trends are very very genuin and majority of serbs feels the same.
Simply put, this was a calculated insult and aggression. Nobody, except the foreign provocateurs and a few domestic Otpor™ leftovers, wanted that sexual provocation on our streets.

The police reaction was obviously mild and I can only guess at their reasons (such as concealed approval by some of the authorities, or perhaps their wish not to make the riots into the street war, thus loosing face in the eyes of Western Europe). However, if I were them, I would've used rubber bullets on these teen and 20-something nazi sociopaths, let them wallow in their blood, with broken ribs and jaws, for a change. Since the only language they speak is violence, let the police speak it up, that would be a real defeat for these "boys", the only one they know. Then 10 years of forced labor would do wonders to building the country.

Democtaric Republic of Serbia

It almost normal that in each society there are right-wing, but also left-wings radicals. The problem in Serbia is that a significant number of citizens are frustrated with other problems and it is easy to find the way to protest. It is a Serbian specific that if it comes to some other issues such as nationalism, proud and similar, almost all the Serbs are radicals including the goverment and even police. Take the reaction after the UDI of Kosovo. Or take the banal example of futball fans. Everybody should blame the very confusing work and message of the goverment which is not able to lead the country towards a civilised and democratic path and support the civile courage.

Zoran, you might support sexual parades and even worse unspeakable things to come in any depraved god-less anglo-american western society, but in orthodox Serbia? Where is YOUR pride man?

Being "ready" means being mental and spiritual raped and that is truly the worst and ultimate aggression Serbia can expect from her "western partners".

Well, this circus event has certainly brought out the Serb haters.

It should be fairly obvious by now that forcing this issue prematurely was a mistake. So we had 6000 protesters and 6000 police to protect 1000 marchers (with many of them foreigners). With that in mind, it should be obvious that Serbia is just not ready.

What we really need to look at here is the number of participants. In all seriousness 1000 is simply not enough to justify the effort considering many of them were foreigners. If Serbians themselves do not have the desire to participate and the protests against them draw a significant number then why should we put all this effort and police protection just to satisfy the EU?

This attitude is common throughout the Balkans and not just Serbia, however, it is only Serbia's response that makes the front pages around the world and provides more ammunition to the Serb haters.

Now I personally don't have an issue with pride parades but at the same time, forcing something on people that just aren't ready is a recipe for disaster. Personally I would stop future parades until there are at least 10,000 people prepared to participate. I thank God no one died yesterday.

@ (Peter Parker, 11 October 2010 10:08)

Did you march yesterday Peter? Probably right up your street!!
I sympathise with the residents of Belgrade for having this mindless march forced upon them. I never feel the need as a god fearing hetrosexual to get a group of people together to confirm my sexuality. Why should the gay community have this exclusive right to confirm what is in effect a private matter between a person and their god.
Looking at the anti Serbian vitriolic comments the last 2 days angers me. If we do a basic google search re; riot and EU lets see how many different stories there are in nearly every EU capital City - Annually for the last few years. You people need to get real...

I am proud that the people have stood up to a government who roles over at a moments notice to please the 'WEST'. Next time though do it with the vote and get Tadic out so he does not lead you into the s**t that is the EU.

I am lucky that I live in a country that does not allow such marches to take place.

Regards

Pozdrav iz Bahreina

The international silence that greeted the violent break-up of the "gay parade" in Moslem Sarajevo last year is instructive when compared to this hypocritical out- pouring directed against the Serbs. On the day this violence took place, the British police were busy clubbing English protesters against sharia who were being attacked by Muslim counter-protesters. Some right to free expression in England! These rioters should receive the same treatment Albanians get for rioting, destroying property and killing and injuring Serbs in Mitrovica-catch and release.

If people think we are passionate about not being gay then you should see how passionate we are about Kosovo and Metohija.

Mr David J Jones: I never feel the need as a god fearing hetrosexual to get a group of people together to confirm my sexuality. Why should the gay community have this exclusive right to confirm what is in effect a private matter between a person and their god.

Firstly, you are not discriminated against or subject to violence because you are heterosexual. Homosexuals are - of course they want to protest.

Heterosexuals get in groups and demostrate their sexuality publically every single day. You also have mass weddings in Belgrade and other cities and you were allowed to protest peacefully against the gay parade the day before.

Gay people don't want to destroy the family or traditions. They just don't want to be subject to violence and discrimination. Why does that bother youso much?

Serbia should not let the mindlessness of a minority of neanderthals prevent them from continuing to hold this rally in future. It is the 21st century, we are no longer living under mind-numbing religious orthodoxy.

My thoughts are with the police who defended open-mindedness and maturity against the forces of repression and regression. I hope they all recover quickly.

As for the muppets who opposed the rally, I wish that they see the stupidity and xenophobia of their position.

One funny thing that came out of this whole fiasco, is that Tadic's government who allowed this to happen, look like complete fools to the rest of the world.

Tadic and his cronies try so so hard to appease their western masters, but no matter how hard they try, they just look like the fools that they are.

This failure of an event shows how Tadic's government is disconnected from Serbia's reality.

On a side not I hope the police who were injured recover quickly, as they were just doing their job.

The blame rests on Tadic's government, who should of sent the police to Kosovo, rather than make them fight other Serbs in the streets of Belgrade.

The current government is no better than Milosevic's government.

On second thought, Milosevic DID send the police to Kosovo.

Hmm.

They should arrest Amfilohije for inciting hate and violence with his hate speech over the weekend. He is responsible for this violence. Religion as always causing violence, crimes, and in some cases murders.
(johny, 11 October 2010 19:59)
====================

You cannot be serious.

They should arrest you for hate speech.

(Zoran, 11 October 2010 12:13)
I don't agree with pride parades either and think they do more harm than good for gay/straight relations. Having said that, I notice a common theme in all your posts, it is everyone elses fault and not Serbians. Stand up and let Serbians accept some responsibility for violence they enact.

wish speedy recovery to all police personnel.

All that the failed parade proved was that gays are hated by mainstream Serbia which protested with violence, peaceful protest & ignoring. After this parade LESS SERBS will be openly & militantly gay. Most paraders were foreigners & Serb & ex-Yugoslav paid NGO employees.

--The demonstrators hurled stones and miscellaneous objects at police, overturned garbage bins, set fire to several cars, set fire to the Democratic Party's headquarters, junked the RTS state broadcaster headquarters and demolished the Socialist Party of Serbia's and Liberal Democratic Party's offices in the city and also attacked the Belgrade mosque and several embassies, in addition to looting several stores.

The violence lasted for hours while police used tear gas and armored vehicles to disperse the rioters. Downtown Belgrade was closed for traffic until the afternoon, Beta news agency reported. --

just one day after, and i shudder to think what it was like sunday on the streets of belgrade. actually i watched some of the "fun" of yr hooligans (so called) and fascists (more accurate term) and it was horrifying. by any normal human standards, not just american or fr frisco...

yes, THIS time the police did the right thing. they were obviously prepared for attacks, though not nearly prepared for the vehemence and those sweet molotov cocktails. that was the "spontaneous" response of the patriots?! give me a break. it was well organized, and financed. and LED. not just a bunch of crazy-ass teens, that is so incredibly naive, willingly ignorant.

I have seen and followed such pride marches/parades for... let's just say years. and yes, at the beginning they are tricky, can be a bit dangerous, with a limited # of brave souls (i know specifically about detroit, but many others as well) but over time there are gradually larger #s and more general acceptance. this is true all over the world, except in the worst repressive regimes, communist, communist-like, or theocratic. in a place like iran it is unthinkable, but so much is unthinkable under that hellish regime.

the call to end the Blgd Pride parade, or "temporarily" put it on hold is mistaken, and in my view quite reactionary and giving in to the fascists. it is perfectly normal that such parades are held on an annual basis. esp.ly in the balkans, they are an absolute necessity for lgbt people and for their frnds and allies as well.

the key is for non-lgbt persons to join the march/parade, which will swell the #s and allow for the slightly more timid, "typical" lgbt persons to come out onto the streets. believe me, i know of what i speak.

as for the broader issues of support for minorities and inclusivity in the society, that needs to be openly supported (in my opinion) at the pride parade. but holding a separate march against prejudice, in favor of human rights -- i think that is a great idea. perhaps it could be held on intl human rights day.

some of the reactions here are a bit bizarre. along the line of: we have homophobia everywhere, sarajevo, new york -- don't blame the poor serbs!! it is a bit idiotic and disingenuous. i have NEVER seen a reaction like yeserday to a pride march -- ever. sometimes marchers have been attacked and arrested by police (think belarus, moscow), often there are homophobic demonstrators -- certainly pressures to prevent such marches. right wing politicians and extreme fundamentalist types. but such rioting of 6000 people thru the city central -- no. such a reaction is much more a reflection of extreme internal anger and frustration, contradictions w/in the society, than having anything to do w/ a pride march or lgbt persons. Pride as Pretext.

there is a great deal of ambivalence in serbian society, not to mention govt, regarding lgbt rights, minority rights, human rights. no one can deny it -- we read it here every damn day! even after the rioting, there is sympathy, for the right wing! and yr govt, w/its contstant state of nationalist and xenophobic agitation (bosnia -- kosovo--bosnia -- kosovo...) never gives it a rest. then, due to extreme, unrelenting pressure from EU diplomats, the blgd regime is "forced" to go thru w/ the parade, all the while its mainstream leadership letting us know how UN-enthusiastic they really are. so what should we expect?

anyway, it was some frightening footage, and no one this time can say it was all cnn lies, christiane amanpour lies...

i spoke w my bosnian frnd, who watched this unfold on his bosnian channels here (so called federation and RS media). yes, he admitted, it did feel reminiscent of some of the uglier moments of the 90s. me too.

as for the police: police are not always the frnds of human rights, to say the least. and the serbian police... but yesterday, they did bravely protect the pride marchers, while carrying the brunt of the fascist attacks. that was not so very nice, in fact one can say it was a bit of a set up. i wish all of those injured a speedy recovery, and hope that next time, next year, belgrade will be much better prepared to host its pride parade. without massive rioting.

thanks again to all those who supported PRIDE! it's progress...

roberto
frisco

ps all of the internationals, so called, did not "ignore" what transpired in sarajevo, 2008. i, for one, wrote an open letter, that was translated and carried in Dani, which is one of their best periodicals. there was also a short film, very well done, which played at SF frameline film fest, to much acclaim. hint, hint...

I don't agree with pride parades either and think they do more harm than good for gay/straight relations.
(pss, 11 October 2010 13:47)
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You read wrong. I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them. This was forced upon Serbians and even though the government complied and provided adequate police protection, instead of praising the government and police for allowing such a parade, the western press and Serb haters used it as more ammunition against Serbia.

With a population of 10 million, Serbia couldn't get more than a few hundred Serbians to participate in this parade. That's really telling how much support it gets from Serbians themselves. This parade was sponsored by the west with many of them participating (including members of NGOs), but all they could get were about 1000 participants. Until they can get at least 10,000 (with most of them local), what's the point of having them?

You are right though, this parade did more damage than good at bridging differences between gay and straight people. Instead of the west admiting this policy failed and instead of praising the government and police, it decided to yet again blame our nation.

.but all they could get were about 1000 participants. Until they can get at least 10,000 (with most of them local), what's the point of having them?.

Zoran I wish you had assumed this position when that waste of time right wing daily protest on Trg Republike which was blocking the traffic regularly was taking place!

So your position would be to ban protests unless more than 10,000 are in attendence? I disagree with your position, people have the right to protest. Democracy should not be reduced because hooligans and lawbreakers go on the rampage. Rather hooligans and lawbreakers should be stopped.

There is one other pretty simple thing you forgot to consider. There may be hundreds or even thousands of people who are too frightened to attend a protest if thousands of violent thugs are baying for their blood.
Pretty logical to assume this is the case. Think about it.

And this 'we are not ready' position is such a cop out.

As I pointed out to the poster Danilo, bands of young male thugs 6,000 or not does not equate society.

You do not appease, you do what is right.

What happened in Belgrade on Sunday is really revolting.It is not the first time that Belgrade is demolished. Let us remember the apprehension of Radovan Karadzic,the man who is not the citizen of Serbia and the violence erupted afterwards in Belgrade. Then, the riots in Belgrade after the declaration of Kosovo independence. Belgrade and its citizens were the victims that suffered great demolition ,damage and material loss. On Sunday ,the gay parade provided hooligans ,supported by hardlined nationalists, a pretext for ravaging Belgrade. The aftermath of their ravages is 158 injured people,a large majority of them policemen, demolished shops, cars, political parties’ headquarters,embassies and so on. Cruelty of the hooligans has not been seen so far. They inflicted injuries to the policemen not to wound ,but to kill. They approached the restrained policemen a few steps and hit them with a four pounds heavy stones.I really feel sorry for the injured policemen and demolished Belgrade.It is obvious that the hooligans,most of whom were teenagers , had tutors and logistics. The question now is who is to compensate the great material loss committed to the citizens of Belgrade. In my opinion, the hooligans, organizers, parents and members of families of hooligans should bear the cost for damages of Belgrade and its citizens. The expensive cars( most of felons have it) , houses and apartments,computers and the others assets should be confiscated for the compensation of the great loss. The citizens are not supposed to have their share in bearing the cost for the damage.

Massimo, are you really Italian???
(Ema, 11 October 2010 12:19)

Yes, I am. That said I am not willing to disclose my address and my Carta d'Identità number.

They should arrest Amfilohije for inciting hate and violence with his hate speech over the weekend. He is responsible for this violence. Religion as always causing violence, crimes, and in some cases murders.

Massimo, are you really Italian???

I am albanian, but I am with the majority of the serbian people on this one.The gay people of the Balkans can go to Nederlands or Sweden.

Perhaps we all have the wrong idea of this whole thing. Perhaps this is the correct approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aotlEpmAFVQ

Such sad and needless violence. And worse, most of it perpetrated on those who were there to protect the rights of other human beings. Until people can learn to behave like considerate human beings, there should not be any parades. In any nation there is always one segment of the population that cannot be happy unless they are inflicting harm on others.

Riots like this happen every weekend somewhere in Europe. For example after soccer games and tennis matches. In my city of Malmoe protesters fought police because the israeli tennis team was coming to town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfiwBsuGu7E

http://www.thelocal.se/16458/20081219/

http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/03/raw-video-riots-in-malmo-sweden.html

I guess such behaviour can occur anywhere except in Serbia.

In all nations, theree are sociopaths and organized gangs who take opportunity of parades to get to the streets, and vandalize the stores and cars, and burn everything.

Democracy cannot do much against such vandalss.

So your position would be to ban protests unless more than 10,000 are in attendence? I disagree with your position, people have the right to protest.
--
No bganon, in general I wouldn't ban protests of any size. However, if we have a parade that requires 6000 police and a huge amount of state resources for something that is basically imposed on us by foreigners and can only convince a few hundred Serbians to participate with potential to cause major destruction in our city then I think common sense needs to be applied.

If you didn't notice, this was reported on the front page of many western press outlets and has caused damage to Serbia's reputation once again by the Serb haters.

If you didn't know, even the UK has many conditions on protests and even more so in London lately (especially in front of parliament).

I'm sure those protests in Trg would have caused some inconvenience (which was probably the point) but it didn't cause mass destruction and didn't require a huge amount of state resources.

There is a time and place for everything. Although I support pride parades in general I wouldn't want to impose them on people that simply aren't ready.

I just read what happened. I live in Chile, southamerica, and i really hope serbia and the rest of the world abandon this behaviors against diversity. They say they want to protect life and family... well, i rather my children to see happy and proud of themself people than a group of violent and full of hate conservatives.

After many years living in a country where 3,2 million people join a pride parade that is fully supported by federal government, Governor of state and city major - with top politicians attending to the celebration, I may have become a bit naive, but anyway... peace to you all.

Amer,

Your first post explained very well the need for these parades to go forward in societies still gripped with significant homophobia.

A fellow resident of MA, I also have observed the waning opposition to legalized gay marriage since 2004. Surprise, surprise -- people have a lot more to worry about, like their jobs, favorite sports teams, etc.

But we in Massachusetts live in one reality, and those in Serbia -- to some extent -- another. You and I are immersed in a society heavily infused with messages that encourage tolerance, equality and multiculturalism, whereas Serbs don't hear quite as much about such values. I won't say that such ideas are nowhere to be found in Serbia, but in my experience, they are in far shorter supply than what I've encountered in Boston over the years. I still remember vividly the racist comments toward the Chinese immigrants of New Belgrade I heard from a very cultured Serb I met a few years back.

Zoran,

I understand your feelings to some degree, but in the end, all criticism must be focused on the bigots who chose to attack police forces sent to protect a small group of peaceful protesters. That Serbia "isn't ready" for such public demonstrations of support for homosexuals is no excuse for not allowing such demonstrations to take place. The only way Serbs ever will be ready is through exposure.

BTW - congratulations to the brave and professional police who used a minimum of force to control the situation and concentrated on defending the civilians. You can see the progress Serbia has made when you compare their behavior to that of the police in Milosevic's day. It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with what the crowds are protesting, but of competency. They've come a long way.

"I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them. "

People are never ready for them until they've been held for a few years. The parades start as demonstrations of defiance by a few brave/foolhardy/naive souls that are attacked, at least verbally, by the self-satisfied but "threatened" majority. The parades encourage others to come out to those around them and the straight, majority community begins to realize that people they've had no problem with for years are gay (etc.) and come to realize that sexuality is only one aspect of a person's being. Eventually even the churches (well, some churches) begin preaching that God made everyone as they are and it is not up to Man to decide who is God's child and who is not. And THEN the parades become celebrations. So far, as far as I know, the parades of pride and defiance have always preceded the parades of celebration.

I live in Massachusetts, the first state to allow gay marriage in the US. It was a contentious issue for years, then the law was changed, and the legislature failed to override the law - and now, everybody who is not directly concerned seems to have forgotten all about it. It's really amazing how rapidly people get used to the new "normal." I think this is really what the protesters are most afraid of - not that homosexuality will be forcibly imposed upon themselves, but that the majority will cease to pay attention to the issue, certainly not to feel outraged by it.

What concerns me here most of all is not so much the Pride Parade but just how ill equiped the police ware to deal with such a situation. The violance has got to stop and those responsible should be made to learn a lesson!

Wishing quick recovery to all those injured on 10th October.

Zoran so by your reckoning various G8 and other G protests should be banned because they cost too much to police?

After all not just a percentage of the protestors in these cases are foreigners - sometimes the majority of protestors attending are from another country.

And they are not always large demonstrations either, but they cost the taxpayer a lot of money.

I maintain that the right to peaceful protest be allowed.

No, it is not those 'priders' causing the expense. Do you see any of them smashing up or setting fire to Belgrade and stealing from shops - yep the hooligans did it again this time, as they did last time? Did you see any of the 'priders' fighting the police for no reason whatever?

But if we want to talk about saving money, perhaps we should think about implementing the British model of policing to control the hooligans by penning them in. That will minimise the descrution and reduce police costs.

Perhaps new laws should also be considered to press charges against those that are seen comitting (in person or on camera) criminal damage which involves them or their family paying the price of that criminal damage?

Finally we have not tried draconian sentences yet. In most cases I accept they don't work but this method has not been attempted to deal with the problem of hooliganism yet in Serbia.

"I am albanian, but I am with the majority of the serbian people on this one.The gay people of the Balkans can go to Nederlands or Sweden.
(Murik, 11 October 2010 23:56)"

I'm sorry, just where did you read that the majority of Serbs are homophobes?

I do support pride parades but only if the people are ready for them.
(Zoran, 11 October 2010 15:19)

Sadly, a civilized peaceful protest is not somewhat on Balkans what people are used to. There is a pretty long way. And this kind of violence does happen in the "West" as well, so not much for them ("West") to be proud of.

Maybe few countries do not know it (Iceland, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway comes in my mind), but "nordic" countries have other social problems like alcohol and with that the Balkan region is much better off.

It is really amusing that such essentially "non-event" makes so much feelings.
I lived in Santa Clara county from 1994 to 2008. During these 14 years I did not even know, San Jose has a "Gay Pride" parade and it's pretty commercial (the way I really dislike!) too.

Otherwise judging from the pictures yesterday's parade was pretty basic or I would even say, humble. I did not see anything provoking... besides from the VERY BIG foreign presence.

Zoran so by your reckoning various G8 and other G protests should be banned because they cost too much to police?
(bganon, 11 October 2010 22:52)
--
You have confused yourself. We had a pride parade and a protest that followed. We have a G8 summit and protests that follow. I am not referring to the protests here as they can go ahead, it's the parade and summit that you need to compare. Understand?

bganon, we should expect foreigners in anti-globalisation protests because it is a global issue. A pride parade in Belgrade is a Serbian issue. I stick by my opinion, if the risks are high and Serbian support is low then we really need to be more considerate to the local population and not the foreigners pushing the issue. If we had a large Serbian turnout at the parade then I would reconsider.

Perhaps we all have the wrong idea of this whole thing. Perhaps this is the correct approach.

[link]
(JohnnyC, 11 October 2010, 12:44)

Lol... classic!

i have NEVER seen a reaction like yeserday to a pride march -- ever.
(roberto, 11 October 2010 21:02)

This is the only part I disagree. The reaction yesterday was typically Serb (OK, also typically "Albanian" or "Croatian"). If they (Serbs, Croats, Albanians) don't like what they see - they will freak out and punch you in the nose, often literally. As bad as it is, there is a WORSE scenario. It happened in an E.U. country very recently - but of course it wasn't reported as much about as about Sarajevo, ZG or BG.

What happened: our friends made preparations for WEEKS before the parade, "securing" critical spots in buildings ABOVE the demonstrators. They also prepared special chemical weaponry, intent not for some nose-punching but for MAIMING and possibly KILLING the ones in lgbt precession. These were eggs with yolk sucked out and replaced with deadly strong acid.

During the gay parade literally a rain of acid bombs was pouring down, with nearly nowhere to run. Luckily, no one was killed - but it wasn't intent that way.

Arrests? Jail term? Nothing. All we did hear "bad boys". Now compared with that the situation in Belgrade is super-duper. And that country is in E.U.

----

sometimes marchers have been attacked and arrested by police (think belarus, moscow),
(roberto, 11 October 2010 21:02)

Yes, but at least no acid. And - btw - our friend Luzhkov, the super-communist turned super-pravoslav and super-corrupt mayor of Moscow is history. And not just history. Medvedyev was asked about Luzhkov and the question was why L. had to "step down". Medvedyev corrected: "he wasn't forced to step down - he was FIRED".

It's a big difference because in this region - unlike U.S. being forced out of job is considered a much bigger disgrace. So (at least in ex-Soviet Union and Hungary) the "forcing out of job" is done somewhat more gently, to preserve the honor. In RARE cases it is done without any honor consideration, it's comparable to "firing as disciplinary action" in the States. Now, to make you happy: your "friend" Luzhkov who forbad the lgbt demo in Moscow was "fired in disciplinary action". Good riddance.

Post-Milosevic Serbian tolerance!

Zoran no I don't understand.
We are talking about the right to assemble, provided protestors / paraders respect the law either you support the right to assemble or not.

Now you are trying to confuse the issue to make a political point.

So make your mind up, are you against protests by those with a high foreign presence or not (like G8 protests) as you suggested was the case? Or is cost (and foreigners in a protests) not an issue now? Rather you support those rights to assemble on an arbitrary basis?

It's just so sad how far Belgrade and Serbia have fallen. I used to love my visits to Yugoslavia when I was younger and identified very closely with the country and as a Serb. But it seems with every passing day I feel less connection and increasingly revulsion. These born again nationalists have truly been destroying the very nation they claim to love and want to protect for over 20 years now. And the vast majority of Serbs seem unwilling to condemn them and emphatically choose a new path. Do they want to live in a country like Saudi Arabia where the morals police goes around the streets enforcing its fundamentalist rules? Do all of these people going on ad nauseam about tradition want to go back to being illiterate peasants living in zadrugas with their extended families? Do they want to go back to arranged marriages and women wearing headscarves? The morality of the village can no longer guide us in modern society. We have education and science now. We have been given the tools to educate ourselves and thereby to think more complexly. The problem is that many people do not want to think. They would rather fantasize about some mythical pure Serbia and impose these impossible (and not necessarily desirable) ideals on everyone else. Just because I'm an ethnic Serb doesn't mean I have to live, think and believe in some narrowly defined way.

'If we had a large Serbian turnout at the parade then I would reconsider'

How would you expect a large turnout when their physical safety is threatened - and there is no question about it if they spot you were at the parade they will beat the living daylights out of you.

How many people would go to any gathering under that kind of threat?

Violence in an attempt to suppress a gathering of people celebrating, or protesting an event in any free and open society sends a message to the world. Attacking police, destroying property, causing harm to those who peacefully disagree and on innocent bystander's only makes that message louder. The timing of this civil disorder has to be questioned. The "pride" event was scheduled for a time when the world's attention was drawn to Belgrade by a state visit of America's top diplomat. The thinking was with more than normal attention on Serbia, the event would be well protected by government official's concerned with world opinion, which as we saw was the case. The same logic was applied by right wing extremists wanting to show the current government as weak and unable to protect citizen's even in the capital of this republic. A few well placed agitator's were able to stir up a mob-mentality in which many who would never normally consider violence against property let alone against fellow Serbian's became pawn's in a political struggle for power. Sunday's events may be new to the Serbian Republic, shocking, violent and a cause of debate for months to come, but the root cause is as old as human history and have occurred in every free nation on the planet to one degree or another. If the court of world opinion allows last Sunday's violence to paint Serbia once again as a country to be isolated and ignored because of the manipulations of a few power hungry ultra-nationalist, it will be us who are wrong, the world who should be ashamed and hypocrisy our rule of law. As an American, I know from our history the growing pains a free and democratic society endures as it grows and flourishes. We should, we must, give Serbia it's well earned opportunity to show it's the rule of law which every Serbian wants in this nation and allow the government the time and chance to do exactly what it's promised it's citizen's and the world it intends to do, to prosecute to the fullest extent of it's laws any and all persons responsible for instigating the crimes committed by Serb's against Serb's. It's what any of us would expect if we were once again in the shoes of every Serbian citizen outraged by Sunday's events. The United Kingdom has shown a very short memory delighting in reporting the civil unrest in Belgrade, forgetting it's own past, and the reputation of it's citizen's all over the EU as "soccer hooligan's". The French gloat of it's citizen's "peaceful" demonstrations when unhappy, forgetting Paris burned for weeks in full blown riots mere years ago in civil unrest by it's immigrant's rage at what they saw as discrimination. My own country reporting biased stories, forgetting our own past "civil unrest" over many issues. I've lived in Belgrade long enough to know the vast majority of Serbian citizen's are the same as the vast majority of American's, Englishmen, Frenchmen, as any of us. And if the world condemns an entire nation on the actions of a few of it's people will be the most hypocritical, most criminal act perpetrated last Sunday.