“Serbia has been punished enough”

Gladko, you are a defender here, almost daily, of victims at Serbian hands. What about the Serbian victims at the hands of the Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, over the decades, Croatians, over the decades? Serbia has certainly done more, than any other wartime participant. Not to mention, the Serbs were selected to be the "bad guys" by the West, and had zero backing from them. While let's say the Albanians, could murder, ethnically-cleanse, destroy Orthodox monasteries, desecrate Serbian cemeteries, all under the watchful eyes of NATO. Start speaking out about other countries to do more about their war crimes, and not just the Serbs - if you want your voice to be respected in any way.

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.

this sold soul for his personal interest says Serbia has been punished enough for its war crimes?!!
has he forgoten hundreds and thousands of his people that perished during recent wars at the hands of his current master?

“Serbia has been punished enough”. Merhaba Rasim, do you really mean this, tell the truth now?

--“We have done plenty in order to improve cooperation with the tribunal. We’ve arrested Karadžić, given practically all requested documentation,” Ljajić told Novi Sad-based daily Dnevnik.--

Of all the members of the blgd regime, for me, ljajic represents the lowest of the low. am i supposed to care about his ethnicity?? are we joking?

he promised to resign months ago. Ljajic: do the world a favor, and resign now! we've all been punished enough by yr lies.

roberto
frisco

Doesn't look like Ljajic is the right man for the job.

Kosovo je Srbsko!!!11

Serbia has NOT been punished enough.

Gladko, you are a defender here, almost daily, of victims at Serbian hands. What about the Serbian victims at the hands of the Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, over the decades, Croatians, over the decades? Serbia has certainly done more, than any other wartime participant. Not to mention, the Serbs were selected to be the "bad guys" by the West, and had zero backing from them. While let's say the Albanians, could murder, ethnically-cleanse, destroy Orthodox monasteries, desecrate Serbian cemeteries, all under the watchful eyes of NATO. Start speaking out about other countries to do more about their war crimes, and not just the Serbs - if you want your voice to be respected in any way.
(papajohn, 10 October 2010 18:23)
Interesting post, by the way have you ever posted any condemnation of Serbs for their war crimes among your criticizisms of others??
A quote comes to mind "Practice what you preach"

Playing the victims card here.

Serbia has been given billion's of Euro's, given visa free travel. This to me sounds a lot like Serbia has been rewarded rather than punished; despite the facts that its government, army, secret services, and church hide war criminals from the international court of justice.

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko)
-
not even a 100 Croats were sentenced to death for their attrocities during WWII and during the war of the Former-Yugoslavia, this lack of Justice is unacceptable.

As we all know, in the end Justice Will Prevail.

I wonder how long it will take the Serbian people to realize that the West cares little for their country. How much is this small balkan country going to have to give up!? Perhaps this is analogous to the selling of ones Soul to the Devil!?

Roberto,
"Of all the members of the blgd regime, for me, ljajic represents the lowest of the low. am i supposed to care about his ethnicity?? are we joking?"
====================

You always do care about ethnicity. Not once have you EVER condemned anything done by Albanians or Bosnian Muslims but you are always condemning everything done by the Serbs. The reason you don't like this manis because he won't condemn Serbia. To you he is a traitor for that and you will hate him just as much if not more than any Serbian politician.

Now, be honest and say so instead of trying to portray yourself as some impartial person not judging on ethnic lines.
Do you really think we are stupid and can't see that?

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko)
=======================

I see you are practicing the old German way. A hundred Serbs to be killed for every German killed.
A hundred Serbs to be killed for every Albanian, Muslim, Croat or whatever killed during that civil war.

You true colours have come out. Be careful.

Many will argue that Serbia has not been punished enough. Deliver Mladic and face the horrible truth of Serbia's instigation of the Yugoslav wars during the 90s. Its the only way for Serbia to move forward. Living in denial does nothing.

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko, 10 October 2010 14:50)

I am not so niaive to believe that Serbs are not also guilty of war crimes in the past because undoubtably they are. I believe that where a crime has been committed, the perpetrator must be punished. This has to be adhered to in a balanced and fair manner, regardless of nationality or ethnicity. Keeping that in mind, I would ask the following question. Of the Serb indictees to the Hague, some 98% have been apprehended and delivered to that court. Of the Croat, Bosnian or any other indictees to that court, what percentage have been apprehended and delivered? Which of the countries in the Balkans are being most severley and continuously penalised for their apparent failure to conform with the tribunal's demands?? I welcome any comments that can begin to explain to me why this imbalance exists and whether, objectively, it can be judged to be fair and balanced.

Roberto, wondering at the end who is the lowest of the low...

I wonder how long it will take the Serbian people to realize that the West cares little for their country. How much is this small balkan country going to have to give up!? Perhaps this is analogous to the selling of ones Soul to the Devil!?
(Vlad)
-
The Serbian people know very well how little the West cares about them. Unfortunatly it is the puppet politicians we have in governement who "don't know" this.

Serbia needs a true leader, who has a backbone to stand straight on.

this sold soul for his personal interest says Serbia has been punished enough for its war crimes?!!
has he forgoten hundreds and thousands of his people that perished during recent wars at the hands of his current master?
(Arber, 10 October 2010 16:36)
======================

He hasn't forgotten anything, but it seems that you have.
Have you forgotten all the Serbian victims at the hands of your brothers? Maybe you haven't but you certainly don't seem to care. It's all about your victims and never about anyone else's. Serbia has done more than any country there to arrest and punish their own for crimes committed. Can the same be said about your lot?

What would be enough for you? Please do tell us how much more punishment should Serbia get and when should the punishment stop, if ever. I would love to hear your views on this one.

BTW, I have said this all along. The fact that Tadic sold Kosovo by changing the resolution put to the UN was not enough. There is still a question of Mladic. It won't even matter if Mladic is arrested. They will find something else, all up till Serbia capitulated entirely and allows NATO troops throughout Serbia.

But it is a gamble, either Croatia or BiH can take Serbia to the ICJ if Mladic is not arrested and claim that Serbia is still in breach of the genocide convention.
(Thomas, 11 October 2010 02:45)
---

Thomas, the Croats already went down that road. They were going to take a lawsuit to the UN for the "genocides" that took place during the independence wars of the 90's. Unfortunately, they decided to take a different path after they realized they have still not been officially charged for their war crimes in WWII (with the thousands of serbs murdered in Jasenovac alone) as well as their own crimes during the recent independent wars. As such I doubt that there is any merit to what you have said.

"...the Croats... decided to take a different path after they realized they have still not been officially charged for their war crimes in WWII (Vlad, 11 October 2010 17:05)"

Vlad, I don't think you understand how international law works.

When Serbia was found by the ICJ to be in breach of the genocide convention (see Bosnia v Serbia) and ordered to surrender those responsible for genocide to the ICTY, then to not do so means that they will become liable for genocide (think of it as accessory after the fact).

The Chewbacca (aka distraction) defence of "but look at what the Croats did 70 years ago" does not work because it has no causal link to why Serbia would not arrest Mladic i.e. Serbia does not want Mladic arrested, not because of WWII war crimes committed by some other ethnicity, but because it could lead to reopening the genocide case against the Serbian state and Serbia wants to avoid that civil liability in the ICJ.

The case will be adjudicated purely on whether Serbia has complied with the court's orders. Bosnia (and possibly Croatia) can bring the action because only states have standing and I believe both are party to the original case?

But to address your point about WWII:
(i) WWII Croatian state has no legal successor. The modern day Republic of Croatia is a successor to the Socialist Republic that defeated the WWII state. This is evident in the aportioning of assets and debt of the former Socialist Yugoslav state.

(ii) For arguments sake, let assume that the modern state was somehow to assume the legacy of the state it defeated in WWII, then what do we make of the blood letting post WWII - does it reflect administration of victor's justice or are they war crimes?
(Bleiburg massacre of Croats; massacre of Itlaians at Foiba; pogrom of Germans from Vojvodina and Slavonia).

How would the ICJ take these matters into account?
If they are war crimes, which successor states become responsible for them? All the former Yugoslav states or just Serbia?

(iii) Serbia has already tried to use WWII history as context for the current mutual genocide case in the ICJ between Croatia and Serbia. That horse has bolted.

(iv) Serbia has its own WWII history including Juden Frei status that could not have been achieved without the cooperation of local government and population.

There is also the genocidal policies of the Chetniks executed in Sandjak, Croatia and Bosnia during WWII, epitomised by the Moljevic plan (cf Prosecutor v Tadic ICTY).

(v) Points (ii) & (iv) are largely academic because they precede the post WWII Geneva Conventions that deal with crimes against humanity. A prosecution may be possible against individuals using international customary law, but unlikely against states.

If the Croats can deliver Gotovina to the Hague, then why can't Serbia deliver Mladic?

I suspect Serbia knows where he is, but does not want to arrest him until closer to ICTY shutdown date of 2014, in the hope of advocating a "trial on the danube" i.e. in Serbia per former ICTY deputy prosecutor Neil Blewitt. Then Serbia can control the agenda of individualising the war crime i.e. convicting Mladic of genocide without convicting Serbia or giving BiH any new material to re-open the genocide case.

But it is a gamble, either Croatia or BiH can take Serbia to the ICJ if Mladic is not arrested and claim that Serbia is still in breach of the genocide convention.

typical example of the utter contempt serbia has towards its responsibilities,

its neither a punishment nor something to get cookie for and a pat on the head for doing what they should do.

it is not something serbia gets to decide is good enough or not, thats the Hagues decision.

its amazing how little serbian irrationality has changed.

not only do they yet again take a situation and warp it to somehow paint themselves as being victims... they even threaten the usual "instability" that will arise simply for not having their way.

@UK

why would you respond gladko's post in such a way?

why is it impossible for serb apologists to speak only of serb crimes without bring up the other sides crime?

Considering that the One Single Common Denominator across all of the violence across all ethnic and all religious lines has been serbs.

its no wonder that serbs would be of particular concern. That may upset the serb apologists utter need to avoid concepts of cause and effect and try "equalize" everything.

And keep in mind, until nato stepped in bombed milosovics whatwasleftofslavia, serbia proper remained happily untouched through the horrors that occured in the balkans...exporting its violence and gave tactic support to lunatics in safety.

they do have a particular responsibility, thats what happens when perpetrators claim they have changed.

you may not like it, but its the truth.

you seem to have a fondness for numbers UK, why was such a large majority of all indictees serb in the first place?

please dont pretend there is anything the slightest bit unfair going on... and yes, that is exactly what you are implying by your "innocent" question.

not one single crime committed against serbs has ANYTHING to do with today's republic of serbias cooperation with the hague.

this is something todays peace loving, democratic and changed serbia really WANTS to do... right?

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.

this sold soul for his personal interest says Serbia has been punished enough for its war crimes?!!
has he forgoten hundreds and thousands of his people that perished during recent wars at the hands of his current master?

“Serbia has been punished enough”. Merhaba Rasim, do you really mean this, tell the truth now?

Gladko, you are a defender here, almost daily, of victims at Serbian hands. What about the Serbian victims at the hands of the Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, over the decades, Croatians, over the decades? Serbia has certainly done more, than any other wartime participant. Not to mention, the Serbs were selected to be the "bad guys" by the West, and had zero backing from them. While let's say the Albanians, could murder, ethnically-cleanse, destroy Orthodox monasteries, desecrate Serbian cemeteries, all under the watchful eyes of NATO. Start speaking out about other countries to do more about their war crimes, and not just the Serbs - if you want your voice to be respected in any way.

Kosovo je Srbsko!!!11

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko)
-
not even a 100 Croats were sentenced to death for their attrocities during WWII and during the war of the Former-Yugoslavia, this lack of Justice is unacceptable.

As we all know, in the end Justice Will Prevail.

I wonder how long it will take the Serbian people to realize that the West cares little for their country. How much is this small balkan country going to have to give up!? Perhaps this is analogous to the selling of ones Soul to the Devil!?

--“We have done plenty in order to improve cooperation with the tribunal. We’ve arrested Karadžić, given practically all requested documentation,” Ljajić told Novi Sad-based daily Dnevnik.--

Of all the members of the blgd regime, for me, ljajic represents the lowest of the low. am i supposed to care about his ethnicity?? are we joking?

he promised to resign months ago. Ljajic: do the world a favor, and resign now! we've all been punished enough by yr lies.

roberto
frisco

Roberto, wondering at the end who is the lowest of the low...

Serbia has NOT been punished enough.

this sold soul for his personal interest says Serbia has been punished enough for its war crimes?!!
has he forgoten hundreds and thousands of his people that perished during recent wars at the hands of his current master?
(Arber, 10 October 2010 16:36)
======================

He hasn't forgotten anything, but it seems that you have.
Have you forgotten all the Serbian victims at the hands of your brothers? Maybe you haven't but you certainly don't seem to care. It's all about your victims and never about anyone else's. Serbia has done more than any country there to arrest and punish their own for crimes committed. Can the same be said about your lot?

What would be enough for you? Please do tell us how much more punishment should Serbia get and when should the punishment stop, if ever. I would love to hear your views on this one.

BTW, I have said this all along. The fact that Tadic sold Kosovo by changing the resolution put to the UN was not enough. There is still a question of Mladic. It won't even matter if Mladic is arrested. They will find something else, all up till Serbia capitulated entirely and allows NATO troops throughout Serbia.

Gladko, you are a defender here, almost daily, of victims at Serbian hands. What about the Serbian victims at the hands of the Bosnian Muslims, Albanians, over the decades, Croatians, over the decades? Serbia has certainly done more, than any other wartime participant. Not to mention, the Serbs were selected to be the "bad guys" by the West, and had zero backing from them. While let's say the Albanians, could murder, ethnically-cleanse, destroy Orthodox monasteries, desecrate Serbian cemeteries, all under the watchful eyes of NATO. Start speaking out about other countries to do more about their war crimes, and not just the Serbs - if you want your voice to be respected in any way.
(papajohn, 10 October 2010 18:23)
Interesting post, by the way have you ever posted any condemnation of Serbs for their war crimes among your criticizisms of others??
A quote comes to mind "Practice what you preach"

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko)
=======================

I see you are practicing the old German way. A hundred Serbs to be killed for every German killed.
A hundred Serbs to be killed for every Albanian, Muslim, Croat or whatever killed during that civil war.

You true colours have come out. Be careful.

I wonder how long it will take the Serbian people to realize that the West cares little for their country. How much is this small balkan country going to have to give up!? Perhaps this is analogous to the selling of ones Soul to the Devil!?
(Vlad)
-
The Serbian people know very well how little the West cares about them. Unfortunatly it is the puppet politicians we have in governement who "don't know" this.

Serbia needs a true leader, who has a backbone to stand straight on.

Doesn't look like Ljajic is the right man for the job.

Playing the victims card here.

Serbia has been given billion's of Euro's, given visa free travel. This to me sounds a lot like Serbia has been rewarded rather than punished; despite the facts that its government, army, secret services, and church hide war criminals from the international court of justice.

typical example of the utter contempt serbia has towards its responsibilities,

its neither a punishment nor something to get cookie for and a pat on the head for doing what they should do.

it is not something serbia gets to decide is good enough or not, thats the Hagues decision.

its amazing how little serbian irrationality has changed.

not only do they yet again take a situation and warp it to somehow paint themselves as being victims... they even threaten the usual "instability" that will arise simply for not having their way.

If the Croats can deliver Gotovina to the Hague, then why can't Serbia deliver Mladic?

I suspect Serbia knows where he is, but does not want to arrest him until closer to ICTY shutdown date of 2014, in the hope of advocating a "trial on the danube" i.e. in Serbia per former ICTY deputy prosecutor Neil Blewitt. Then Serbia can control the agenda of individualising the war crime i.e. convicting Mladic of genocide without convicting Serbia or giving BiH any new material to re-open the genocide case.

But it is a gamble, either Croatia or BiH can take Serbia to the ICJ if Mladic is not arrested and claim that Serbia is still in breach of the genocide convention.

Many will argue that Serbia has not been punished enough. Deliver Mladic and face the horrible truth of Serbia's instigation of the Yugoslav wars during the 90s. Its the only way for Serbia to move forward. Living in denial does nothing.

"...the Croats... decided to take a different path after they realized they have still not been officially charged for their war crimes in WWII (Vlad, 11 October 2010 17:05)"

Vlad, I don't think you understand how international law works.

When Serbia was found by the ICJ to be in breach of the genocide convention (see Bosnia v Serbia) and ordered to surrender those responsible for genocide to the ICTY, then to not do so means that they will become liable for genocide (think of it as accessory after the fact).

The Chewbacca (aka distraction) defence of "but look at what the Croats did 70 years ago" does not work because it has no causal link to why Serbia would not arrest Mladic i.e. Serbia does not want Mladic arrested, not because of WWII war crimes committed by some other ethnicity, but because it could lead to reopening the genocide case against the Serbian state and Serbia wants to avoid that civil liability in the ICJ.

The case will be adjudicated purely on whether Serbia has complied with the court's orders. Bosnia (and possibly Croatia) can bring the action because only states have standing and I believe both are party to the original case?

But to address your point about WWII:
(i) WWII Croatian state has no legal successor. The modern day Republic of Croatia is a successor to the Socialist Republic that defeated the WWII state. This is evident in the aportioning of assets and debt of the former Socialist Yugoslav state.

(ii) For arguments sake, let assume that the modern state was somehow to assume the legacy of the state it defeated in WWII, then what do we make of the blood letting post WWII - does it reflect administration of victor's justice or are they war crimes?
(Bleiburg massacre of Croats; massacre of Itlaians at Foiba; pogrom of Germans from Vojvodina and Slavonia).

How would the ICJ take these matters into account?
If they are war crimes, which successor states become responsible for them? All the former Yugoslav states or just Serbia?

(iii) Serbia has already tried to use WWII history as context for the current mutual genocide case in the ICJ between Croatia and Serbia. That horse has bolted.

(iv) Serbia has its own WWII history including Juden Frei status that could not have been achieved without the cooperation of local government and population.

There is also the genocidal policies of the Chetniks executed in Sandjak, Croatia and Bosnia during WWII, epitomised by the Moljevic plan (cf Prosecutor v Tadic ICTY).

(v) Points (ii) & (iv) are largely academic because they precede the post WWII Geneva Conventions that deal with crimes against humanity. A prosecution may be possible against individuals using international customary law, but unlikely against states.

But it is a gamble, either Croatia or BiH can take Serbia to the ICJ if Mladic is not arrested and claim that Serbia is still in breach of the genocide convention.
(Thomas, 11 October 2010 02:45)
---

Thomas, the Croats already went down that road. They were going to take a lawsuit to the UN for the "genocides" that took place during the independence wars of the 90's. Unfortunately, they decided to take a different path after they realized they have still not been officially charged for their war crimes in WWII (with the thousands of serbs murdered in Jasenovac alone) as well as their own crimes during the recent independent wars. As such I doubt that there is any merit to what you have said.

Roberto,
"Of all the members of the blgd regime, for me, ljajic represents the lowest of the low. am i supposed to care about his ethnicity?? are we joking?"
====================

You always do care about ethnicity. Not once have you EVER condemned anything done by Albanians or Bosnian Muslims but you are always condemning everything done by the Serbs. The reason you don't like this manis because he won't condemn Serbia. To you he is a traitor for that and you will hate him just as much if not more than any Serbian politician.

Now, be honest and say so instead of trying to portray yourself as some impartial person not judging on ethnic lines.
Do you really think we are stupid and can't see that?

Not even 100 Serbs have been sentenced for the death of 1000s and 1000s of innocent civilians all across Bosnia and Croatia. This is far from enough, when we all know that 1000s of war criminals live on the same street as their victim. It is this lack of JUSTICE that sends a negative image of Serbia.

I disagree. Enough has not yet been made.
(Gladko, 10 October 2010 14:50)

I am not so niaive to believe that Serbs are not also guilty of war crimes in the past because undoubtably they are. I believe that where a crime has been committed, the perpetrator must be punished. This has to be adhered to in a balanced and fair manner, regardless of nationality or ethnicity. Keeping that in mind, I would ask the following question. Of the Serb indictees to the Hague, some 98% have been apprehended and delivered to that court. Of the Croat, Bosnian or any other indictees to that court, what percentage have been apprehended and delivered? Which of the countries in the Balkans are being most severley and continuously penalised for their apparent failure to conform with the tribunal's demands?? I welcome any comments that can begin to explain to me why this imbalance exists and whether, objectively, it can be judged to be fair and balanced.

@UK

why would you respond gladko's post in such a way?

why is it impossible for serb apologists to speak only of serb crimes without bring up the other sides crime?

Considering that the One Single Common Denominator across all of the violence across all ethnic and all religious lines has been serbs.

its no wonder that serbs would be of particular concern. That may upset the serb apologists utter need to avoid concepts of cause and effect and try "equalize" everything.

And keep in mind, until nato stepped in bombed milosovics whatwasleftofslavia, serbia proper remained happily untouched through the horrors that occured in the balkans...exporting its violence and gave tactic support to lunatics in safety.

they do have a particular responsibility, thats what happens when perpetrators claim they have changed.

you may not like it, but its the truth.

you seem to have a fondness for numbers UK, why was such a large majority of all indictees serb in the first place?

please dont pretend there is anything the slightest bit unfair going on... and yes, that is exactly what you are implying by your "innocent" question.

not one single crime committed against serbs has ANYTHING to do with today's republic of serbias cooperation with the hague.

this is something todays peace loving, democratic and changed serbia really WANTS to do... right?