Greek position on Kosovo unchanged

Nothing new, no reason why Greece's position should change.

"their part is even more important now in defending Serbia's rights. "
(kate, 10 September 2010 12:22)

I still wonder why some people think the countries which don't recognize Kosovo do it to "defend Serbian rights". An illusion.

....the rotten and bankrupted EU.

(The Greek, 10 September 2010 12:49)



This coming from a Greek, we just gave 120 Billion Euros to repair the damage of corruption, on top of hundreds other billions given in aid prior to this package?!

I feel our tax money should never have been used to subsidise those who are ungrateful.

Greece feeds on EU money, it always has. If Germans and other EU nations don't work and pay taxes Greeks will starve. Under these conditions Greek position is fairly volatile.

With Turkey in the east and Macedonians and Albanians in the west, Greece has no choice but to build good relations with its neigbors. It really has a genuine interest in this. We all know that if it wasn't for US and NATO a war between Greece and Turkey would have been inevitable.
(Denis, 10 September 2010 16:08)

The usual sensational lies and propaganda from Albanians.

All EU countries pay 1% of their gross income ans VAT receipts to the EU coffers.The fact that Germany has the highest GDP and VAT receipts from exports is not Greece's fault.

I would argue that Germany and other industrial countries are the ones benefiting from the single market.Free access to EU markets gives Germany and other EU countries an advantage over other countries such as China and Japan.

Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.

The question you should ask is what Albania will do without the 4 billion euros that Albanian sent home from Greece every year.

The last part of your comment is also laughable.
Albania and Fyrom will dance to Greece's tune because both countries depend on the Greek economy.

Now Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece.Both countries are armed to their teeth and don't forget that Turkey has its own civil war with the Kurds which will unfold in the near future as soon as Iraq disintegrates.

I sadly believe that there is no use for my country to keep supporting Serbia on this. The Serbs are ready to "sell" Kosovo for the rotten and bankrupted EU. And there is no reason for Greece or Spain keep supporting a diplomatic battle that seems to be almost lost. What happened with Kosovo was a diplomatic crime. A serbian land was illegally and barbarically stolen from Serbia. But the Serbs never really wanted or were able to defend their rights. No Russia, no Spain and no Greece can help you out if you cannot help yoursleves first. Say hello to your traitor politicians that sell your land so easily. And don't expect any help from the very few countries that were on your side, on this. It is very unfortunate to say that for a friendly nation, but it is true...

Of course it does. Greece, Spain, Cyprus, Russia, China et al... their part is even more important now in defending Serbia's rights. Does anyone really think that this recent diplomatic twist would have happened without full assurance that these allies were on board?

Everything has been planned in this latest phase.

Greece feeds on EU money, it always has. If Germans and other EU nations don't work and pay taxes Greeks will starve. Under these conditions Greek position is fairly volatile.

With Turkey in the east and Macedonians and Albanians in the west, Greece has no choice but to build good relations with its neigbors. It really has a genuine interest in this. We all know that if it wasn't for US and NATO a war between Greece and Turkey would have been inevitable.

I can remember very well how some smart albanian kid was predicting Greece to "recognise" soon....

=)


well, at least that´s what they seem to read in their yellow-press ( which they are buying with european and US-american donation-money )!

Thats because US/EU wont give them extra money. To hell with them, I hope they wont recive a cent for recognition.

By the way, the headline and the rest of the text not in tone. Greece has recognised Kosovo in a way, not formally. Passports recognised, an "office" more like embassy functions in Pristina already.

"Greece has stated that its position on Kosovo is well known and that it remains stable, Greek media have reported."

Stable stance from an very unstable country on the bring of bankruptcy. Albanians know very well who their real friends are but we have to be smart. The time is working for Albanians.

All the more important now that the 5 Naysayers support Serbia's diplomatic efforts in finding an optimal solution with the rest of the EU over Kosovo before they change their stances.

A country with a GDP per capita more than 30000$ is not easy to starve sir.
Greece is a famous tourist destination and has the biggest Merchant Fleet on the world near 20%.
No one gives money for free sir. Greece received loan and not a gift.
If they were not trust Greek economy, i see no reason for 120billion loan.

-I can remember very well how some smart albanian kid was predicting Greece to "recognise" soon....
=)


well, at least that´s what they seem to read in their yellow-press ( which they are buying with european and US-american donation-money )!
(Jovan-


I would say that's money well spent.
Thanks for telling us how you feel.

Anyway, why is Greece repeadetly coming out claiming that they won't recognize Kosove?

If that's their stance so be it.
What I find interesting is that when a party repeats their stance over and over again...even if no one is asking them any longer then I think the opposite may happen.

Kind of like Tadic/Jeremic's claims leading up to the ICJ decision.
We'll see what happens.



-A country with a GDP per capita more than 30000$ is not easy to starve sir.
Greece is a famous tourist destination and has the biggest Merchant Fleet on the world near 20%.
No one gives money for free sir. Greece received loan and not a gift.
If they were not trust Greek economy, i see no reason for 120billion loan.
to_m-

There is no trust in the Greek economy or government. The reason for the bailout is to stop the bleeding. If Greece was not bailed out then Spain, Portugal and other countries were going to be dragged in the mess along with other countries...which would've had lasting global implications.

-Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.
Leonidas-


Rating agencies have downgraded Greece's status. Here's a simple lesson in economics:

It's not how much you make but how much you keep. If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.

Such is the case with Greece. Your goverment spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a stong economy.

You didn't then and you don't now.

I don't think Greeks will starve but I do think that Greece's best days are behind her...at least fora few decades to come.

@the Greek

Actually the truth is Greece does not hold Serbian side over Kosovo because of Serbian problem with its province being taken away but because of unsolved status of Cyprus. That's the facts!

I think it has always been a big mistake to make general comments about a nation being your "brothers" or "Friends". More to the point is to ask whom a certain stance about another country benefits from a wholly political perspective and not through any shared historical myth or religion.
I have heard nothing but "Mother Russia, Mother Russia" in the last few years but the truth is that good old Mutha Russia has been buying up as much cheap business in Serbia as the USA has done. As for Russia being our saviour in our hour of need - Where the heck where they from 1991 to 1999 and how the heck did they let NATO bomb us Serbs?
For all its misgivings Greece was the one who was sending bardges of oil and diesel up the river for the Serbs in the hotest moments of the sanctions against Serbia.
But the truth is that then and now nobody is supporting us Serbs because they feel a brotherly love for us it is just the cold business and political support that we are getting from those countries who have got more to potentially lose through them NOT supporting the Serbian viewpoint.
And one more thing - before you all get on "THE GREEK's" case about his post - He is not all wrong in what he says about our own government giving away Kosovo whilst we plebs expect "The" Greeks and "The" Russians to come and help us out here!
Good bye Kosovo and tomorrow it will be Raska!
Slobodan

All EU countries pay 1% of their gross income ans VAT receipts to the EU coffers.The fact that Germany has the highest GDP and VAT receipts from exports is not Greece's fault.

Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.

The question you should ask is what Albania will do without the 4 billion euros that Albanian sent home from Greece every year.

The last part of your comment is also laughable.
Albania and Fyrom will dance to Greece's tune because both countries depend on the Greek economy.

Now Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece.Both countries are armed to their teeth and don't forget that Turkey has its own civil war with the Kurds which will unfold in the near future as soon as Iraq disintegrates.
(Leonidas, 10 September 2010 21:49)

$3-$4 Billion of aid? The last bailout (only the last one) cost the EU taxpayers $147 billion. Who are you kidding. The foreign and internal debt of Greece combined is some $1 trillion.

This gives you a clear picture of how Greece was build. Albanians in Greece send home only $400 mil, since all Alb immigrants send all together in a year some $1billion, but they do have savings of some $6 bill in Greek banks that use it to fund your bankrupt pension plans.

Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.

Only 9% of Alb exports and some 10% of imports are from Greece, and now with free trade agreement with EU Greece can be replaced immediately as a trade partner with no headaches.

Greece has lost any mussle now in the region. It did have some years back when the others were in a dire, but it abused it and it never grew out of that mentality to be a true leader...... very cheap and lame for a civilized nation and NATO country.

Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece, if Greece keeps quite, cause they have been eager to do so before I believe

"All the more important now that the 5 Naysayers support Serbia's diplomatic efforts in finding an optimal solution with the rest of the EU over Kosovo before they change their stances.
(Mike, 10 September 2010 13:35) "

Don't get your hopes up that Slovakia is going to hold out much longer. (There's a new government with fewer Hungarian-related problems in power these days.) An official visiting Kosovo says they won't be as stubborn over recognition as Cyprus. So, be grateful to the 5 that they didn't dis Serbia by recognizing Kosovo before the General Assembly vote, but don't count on them for much more in the way of support. After all, when push came to shove, they all signed onto the EU compromise position. Whether their statements in the addenda were intended to allow them to form a block to protect Serbia's interests during negotiations or just to salve their consciences is something we'll have to wait to see.

As for Greece: you can't get me to say anything bad about it. The Greeks invented the idea of democracy, protected it against the Persians from extinction, and preserved the idea in the writings of its philosophers until the world was more ready to accept it. Today, by accepting, however reluctantly, the need for unpopular measures to ensure the country's economic future, they are again demonstrating to the world that the people - fickle, stupid, and short-sighted as most of us are - really can be entrusted with governing themselves. Ourselves. (Over the long run - I have real doubts about what the American electorate will demonstrate in the November elections.)

The EU is just doing what it must to slowly drag serbia in so as not to set some serbs off so that dont start "helplessly" cheering in a new lunatic to bless the region with.

something Greece does have an interest in, But of course they will flip eventually as serbs further get used to the idea. So Until then, Greeces "on the fence" lip service does serve a purpose.

The Greek,

They did try to fight for their rights times and again as much as they could. Now, Serbia is a small country and cannot realistically permit itself a 2nd armed confrontation against the most powerful military alliance in the world, an alliance to which both your country and mine belong, and which has already bombed them because they tried to defend their territorial integrity. They cannot really ignore the EU threats and blackmailing either because isolationism would be economically disastrous and, ultimately, even (geo-)politcially unhelpful. sincerely, what would / could you do if you were in their position? So, please, respect!

M-la-maudite-

3-$4 Billion of aid? The last bailout (only the last one) cost the EU taxpayers $147 billion. Who are you kidding. The foreign and internal debt of Greece combined is some $1 trillion.

This gives you a clear picture of how Greece was build. Albanians in Greece send home only $400 mil, since all Alb immigrants send all together in a year some $1billion, but they do have savings of some $6 bill in Greek banks that use it to fund your bankrupt pension plans.

Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.

Only 9% of Alb exports and some 10% of imports are from Greece, and now with free trade agreement with EU Greece can be replaced immediately as a trade partner with no headaches.

Greece has lost any mussle now in the region. It did have some years back when the others were in a dire, but it abused it and it never grew out of that mentality to be a true leader...... very cheap and lame for a civilized nation and NATO country.

Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece, if Greece keeps quite, cause they have been eager to do so before I believe
(Denis, 11 September 2010 00:05

Total bailout was in the region of 110billion euros carrying 5% APR and not free as you suggest.Total geeek debt is approximately $400 billion.

Your comment about Albanians supporting the Greek social security system with their national security conrtibutions is an indication that you haven't got a clue what is the status
of the Albanians in Greece.

The vast majority are operating within the black economy on cash in hand basis
because they're undocumented alliens.
As to the Greek influence in the balkans look at who owns most of the banks in Albania,Fyrom and two of the biggest banks in Turkey.

Total bailout was in the region of 110billion euros carrying 5% APR and not free as you suggest.Total geeek debt is approximately $400 billion.

Your comment about Albanians supporting the Greek social security system with their national security conrtibutions is an indication that you haven't got a clue what is the status
of the Albanians in Greece.

The vast majority are operating within the black economy on cash in hand basis
because they're undocumented alliens.
As to the Greek influence in the balkans look at who owns most of the banks in Albania,Fyrom and two of the biggest banks in Turkey.
(Leonidas, 11 September 2010 11:13)

The Greek foreign debt alone is some $550 billion, the internal public debt is $440billion. The last bailout was not $110 billion but exactly $147 billion. Check you numbers again.

Only 13% of Albanians in Greece are undocumented workers according to Greek gov, due to issuance of work permits by the Greek gov several times in the last 2 decades. Alb in Greece constitute some 13% of total workforce, you do the math. They have worked hard for cheap wages amongst the worst discrimination and hardship in Europe as noted by many int'l reports of human rights, something that we do not forget.

Greece owns many banks in Alb, but they are small and have only some 13% (down from 76% 8 yrs ago) of total deposits. The largest banks now are Raiffeinsen, San Paolo Bank, Societe Generale, that control the vast majority of the banking system and total deposits. Of course the arrogant behaviour of Greece towards albs have shown its effect in many sectors of the economy.


Greece's behaviour towards its neigbors has done it no favor. Macedonians already have plans to reduce or eliminate the dependency on Greek ports and go through Albanian ones as soon as they have the capacity. The bulling and pressure upon its neigbors is having its effect as Alb and Macedonians are looking to alternative markets and alliances, like Turkey, Italy, Austria etc.

Greece is losing it's role as a regional leader by the day. It is a country in need of foreign assitance. As such it can not afford to get out of line with other EU members that are financing it.

Albanian posters here can try to put Greece down all they want but they have to realize that Greek approval is required for EU accession for both Albania and Kosovo. Greece can veto Kosovo’s or Albania’s entry into the EU. So who needs to have good neighborly relations more, an EU member or an EU prospect? And last I checked, Kosovo and Albania are still very underdeveloped economies compared to Greece. Say all you want about their financial crisis. Kosovo relies on foreign aid and hand outs to support its own budget. What does that say about your economy?

Rating agencies have downgraded Greece's status. Here's a simple lesson in economics:

It's not how much you make but how much you keep. If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.

Such is the case with Greece. Your goverment spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a stong economy.

You didn't then and you don't now.

I don't think Greeks will starve but I do think that Greece's best days are behind her...at least fora few decades to come.
(t, 11 September 2010 05:33

Rating agencies have also said in the past that Lehman Brothers,Aig,Ford,Citibank were solid as rock but they either went bust or had to be bailed out with $billions.

Greece is not the only country facing a financial crisis which had its origins on the Wall Street ponzi scheme.

Denis I wonder how you get the numbers you mention. How you found out the total debt of Greece is 1 trillion. The public debt of Greece is around 310 bil € and the GDP is about 240 bil €. Despite your claims, the private debt is much lower as percentage of national wealth compared to Spain, Ireland, Portugal. The debt will probably be 1 trillion if we add the future obligations of the state to state insurance funds for some decades. The joint EU- IMF bailout is 110 bil € (not 147) and it is not a donation as Toni believes, but a loan with high interest (almost 5%) aiming at saving german, franch, swiss banks that own about 80% of Greek public bonds. It is true that after joining EU and especially joining euro, the trade balance has deteriorated (as it was the case with other south European countries) and as it will happen to other Balkan countries. I must also add that the net annual receives from EU budget are about 5% of GDP.
T wrote “ If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.
Such is the case with Greece. Your government spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a strong economy. You didn't then and you don't now.”. T do you have any idea that most advanced countries have ratio of public debt to GDP similar to that of Greece which is around 120% (Japan 190%, Italy 110%, Germany 80% etc.) and if we add private debt they overpass it?
Despite the financial crisis, Greece is still much better off than Kosovo or Albania and the rest Balkan countries. Otherwise, there would be immigration from Greece to Albania, Bulgaria or Kosovo and not vice versa. Denis wrote “Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.” Of course the immigrants contribute to the wealth to the country they work and in many cases they are exploited and mistreated, but I wonder where he got the figures that Albanians are the most productive. They are not well known for being excellent professionals, nor I can say they work harder than other nationalities. In fact Albanians, Romanians have a high record in criminality. While the immigrants consist around 15% of the population in Greece, they are over presented in serious criminality and they have a high participation in crimes like rapes, murders, armed robberies. From the crimes committed and the perpetrator was found 30% were committed by foreigners (and the majority of them were Albanians, Romanians). Actually the most peaceful and hard working foreigners are the ones from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines.
Besides, the Albanians usually apply double standards on the rights of minorities. For example in South Albania, where a sizeable Greek minority lives, 3 Albanians killed a Greek because he spoke Greek in his shop. The next days members of the Greek minority party were intimidated. Obviously, many Albanians try to force Greek minority out and to confiscate its property.
In Kosovo, the Albanians were suppressed during the first prewar Yugoslavia, but it is undeniable that the Albanian minority enjoyed a lot of rights from in seventies and eighties. According to the 1974 federal constitution Kosovo was an autonomous province of Serbia with its own parliament, delegate at the rotating collective presidency, government, flag (similar with that of Albania). Its government had the right to distribute the funds for the underdeveloped areas as it chose, the government of Kosovo was deciding on the textbooks at the schools, the Albanian pupils were taught entirely in Albanian and only at the university in Serbian and Albanian. The Kosovo government could also have bilateral relations with other countries and sign contracts. The laws of Serbia, except the penal code, had to be adopted by the Pristina parliament inorder to be valid. Almost all the streets in capital Pristina had Albanian names. The implementation of proportionate quotas permitted to the Albanians to control the state apparatus, since about 80% of the personnel was Albanians. Despite all that, there was revolt in 1981 with the demand “Kosovo republic”, obviously as a first step to independence. This was cracked down by the federal government and military rule was imposed. I find this revolt difficult to understand and unjustifiable. Do n’t the Albanians bear responsibility for the subsequent events? They should be honest enough to admit it. Obviously, it seems the Albanians dislike a balanced solution, as it was Kosovo then. It is a fact that around 250000 Serbs and Montenegrians left Kosovo due to economic situation and to pressure by their Albanian neighbours in an unfriendly environment. Eventually the Kosovo Serbs protested because they felt alienated and suppressed by the Albanian majority. Then appeared the low level bureaucrat Milosevic who supported their claims. In 1989 Serbia decided to reduce the level of autonomy of Kosovo. Albanians objected and Kosovo Serbs supported the modifications of the Serbian constitution. The Albanians went on political strikes, applied civil disobedience, refused to sign documents recognizing Serbia as their state and more than 100 thousand were fired from their jobs. The gap between the 2 communities grew. Milosevic government used administrative methods to solve the issue, alienated completely the Albanian population and the Albanians felt suppressed (and were by the Serb police: many were imprisoned and around 200 were killed from 1989 till 1997). Eventually after 1996 the guerrilla group Kosovo Liberation Army started attacks against Serb policemen, civilians, Albanians who were against independence. After 1998 the attacks escalated (with assistance of Western powers) and Serb government replied disproportionately against Albanian civilians (it displaced thousands and many were killed) and guerrillas (although not at the extent Turkey has cracked down against Kurd guerrillas). That gave the excuse (apart with carefully organized media campaign) for a western military intervention against Yugoslavia in march 1999. After june 1999, when Serb forces were defeated and left Kosovo, the Albanians have applied a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Many incidents of destroyed churches, cemeteries, houses and killings of unarmed Serb, Roma civilians have taken place since then. So, having western support and thanks partly to the policies of the submissive government of Tadic (DS- SPO-SPS- G 17) Albanians will probably achieve their goal: an independent ethnically clean Kosovo. But the Albanian posters must admit honestly that they can not claim they have moral status or rights.
PS: The current greek government of Papandreou is extremely proAmerican and submissive, so it may finally come in line with USA position.

This coming from a Greek, we just gave 120 Billion Euros to repair the damage of corruption, on top of hundreds other billions given in aid prior to this package?!

I feel our tax money should never have been used to subsidise those who are ungrateful.
(Toni)
-
Thank the EU, not Greece.

Of course it does. Greece, Spain, Cyprus, Russia, China et al... their part is even more important now in defending Serbia's rights. Does anyone really think that this recent diplomatic twist would have happened without full assurance that these allies were on board?

Everything has been planned in this latest phase.

....the rotten and bankrupted EU.

(The Greek, 10 September 2010 12:49)



This coming from a Greek, we just gave 120 Billion Euros to repair the damage of corruption, on top of hundreds other billions given in aid prior to this package?!

I feel our tax money should never have been used to subsidise those who are ungrateful.

Greece feeds on EU money, it always has. If Germans and other EU nations don't work and pay taxes Greeks will starve. Under these conditions Greek position is fairly volatile.

With Turkey in the east and Macedonians and Albanians in the west, Greece has no choice but to build good relations with its neigbors. It really has a genuine interest in this. We all know that if it wasn't for US and NATO a war between Greece and Turkey would have been inevitable.

Thats because US/EU wont give them extra money. To hell with them, I hope they wont recive a cent for recognition.

By the way, the headline and the rest of the text not in tone. Greece has recognised Kosovo in a way, not formally. Passports recognised, an "office" more like embassy functions in Pristina already.

I sadly believe that there is no use for my country to keep supporting Serbia on this. The Serbs are ready to "sell" Kosovo for the rotten and bankrupted EU. And there is no reason for Greece or Spain keep supporting a diplomatic battle that seems to be almost lost. What happened with Kosovo was a diplomatic crime. A serbian land was illegally and barbarically stolen from Serbia. But the Serbs never really wanted or were able to defend their rights. No Russia, no Spain and no Greece can help you out if you cannot help yoursleves first. Say hello to your traitor politicians that sell your land so easily. And don't expect any help from the very few countries that were on your side, on this. It is very unfortunate to say that for a friendly nation, but it is true...

I can remember very well how some smart albanian kid was predicting Greece to "recognise" soon....

=)


well, at least that´s what they seem to read in their yellow-press ( which they are buying with european and US-american donation-money )!

A country with a GDP per capita more than 30000$ is not easy to starve sir.
Greece is a famous tourist destination and has the biggest Merchant Fleet on the world near 20%.
No one gives money for free sir. Greece received loan and not a gift.
If they were not trust Greek economy, i see no reason for 120billion loan.

Greece feeds on EU money, it always has. If Germans and other EU nations don't work and pay taxes Greeks will starve. Under these conditions Greek position is fairly volatile.

With Turkey in the east and Macedonians and Albanians in the west, Greece has no choice but to build good relations with its neigbors. It really has a genuine interest in this. We all know that if it wasn't for US and NATO a war between Greece and Turkey would have been inevitable.
(Denis, 10 September 2010 16:08)

The usual sensational lies and propaganda from Albanians.

All EU countries pay 1% of their gross income ans VAT receipts to the EU coffers.The fact that Germany has the highest GDP and VAT receipts from exports is not Greece's fault.

I would argue that Germany and other industrial countries are the ones benefiting from the single market.Free access to EU markets gives Germany and other EU countries an advantage over other countries such as China and Japan.

Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.

The question you should ask is what Albania will do without the 4 billion euros that Albanian sent home from Greece every year.

The last part of your comment is also laughable.
Albania and Fyrom will dance to Greece's tune because both countries depend on the Greek economy.

Now Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece.Both countries are armed to their teeth and don't forget that Turkey has its own civil war with the Kurds which will unfold in the near future as soon as Iraq disintegrates.

"Greece has stated that its position on Kosovo is well known and that it remains stable, Greek media have reported."

Stable stance from an very unstable country on the bring of bankruptcy. Albanians know very well who their real friends are but we have to be smart. The time is working for Albanians.

The Greek,

They did try to fight for their rights times and again as much as they could. Now, Serbia is a small country and cannot realistically permit itself a 2nd armed confrontation against the most powerful military alliance in the world, an alliance to which both your country and mine belong, and which has already bombed them because they tried to defend their territorial integrity. They cannot really ignore the EU threats and blackmailing either because isolationism would be economically disastrous and, ultimately, even (geo-)politcially unhelpful. sincerely, what would / could you do if you were in their position? So, please, respect!

M-la-maudite-

The EU is just doing what it must to slowly drag serbia in so as not to set some serbs off so that dont start "helplessly" cheering in a new lunatic to bless the region with.

something Greece does have an interest in, But of course they will flip eventually as serbs further get used to the idea. So Until then, Greeces "on the fence" lip service does serve a purpose.

Denis I wonder how you get the numbers you mention. How you found out the total debt of Greece is 1 trillion. The public debt of Greece is around 310 bil € and the GDP is about 240 bil €. Despite your claims, the private debt is much lower as percentage of national wealth compared to Spain, Ireland, Portugal. The debt will probably be 1 trillion if we add the future obligations of the state to state insurance funds for some decades. The joint EU- IMF bailout is 110 bil € (not 147) and it is not a donation as Toni believes, but a loan with high interest (almost 5%) aiming at saving german, franch, swiss banks that own about 80% of Greek public bonds. It is true that after joining EU and especially joining euro, the trade balance has deteriorated (as it was the case with other south European countries) and as it will happen to other Balkan countries. I must also add that the net annual receives from EU budget are about 5% of GDP.
T wrote “ If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.
Such is the case with Greece. Your government spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a strong economy. You didn't then and you don't now.”. T do you have any idea that most advanced countries have ratio of public debt to GDP similar to that of Greece which is around 120% (Japan 190%, Italy 110%, Germany 80% etc.) and if we add private debt they overpass it?
Despite the financial crisis, Greece is still much better off than Kosovo or Albania and the rest Balkan countries. Otherwise, there would be immigration from Greece to Albania, Bulgaria or Kosovo and not vice versa. Denis wrote “Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.” Of course the immigrants contribute to the wealth to the country they work and in many cases they are exploited and mistreated, but I wonder where he got the figures that Albanians are the most productive. They are not well known for being excellent professionals, nor I can say they work harder than other nationalities. In fact Albanians, Romanians have a high record in criminality. While the immigrants consist around 15% of the population in Greece, they are over presented in serious criminality and they have a high participation in crimes like rapes, murders, armed robberies. From the crimes committed and the perpetrator was found 30% were committed by foreigners (and the majority of them were Albanians, Romanians). Actually the most peaceful and hard working foreigners are the ones from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines.
Besides, the Albanians usually apply double standards on the rights of minorities. For example in South Albania, where a sizeable Greek minority lives, 3 Albanians killed a Greek because he spoke Greek in his shop. The next days members of the Greek minority party were intimidated. Obviously, many Albanians try to force Greek minority out and to confiscate its property.
In Kosovo, the Albanians were suppressed during the first prewar Yugoslavia, but it is undeniable that the Albanian minority enjoyed a lot of rights from in seventies and eighties. According to the 1974 federal constitution Kosovo was an autonomous province of Serbia with its own parliament, delegate at the rotating collective presidency, government, flag (similar with that of Albania). Its government had the right to distribute the funds for the underdeveloped areas as it chose, the government of Kosovo was deciding on the textbooks at the schools, the Albanian pupils were taught entirely in Albanian and only at the university in Serbian and Albanian. The Kosovo government could also have bilateral relations with other countries and sign contracts. The laws of Serbia, except the penal code, had to be adopted by the Pristina parliament inorder to be valid. Almost all the streets in capital Pristina had Albanian names. The implementation of proportionate quotas permitted to the Albanians to control the state apparatus, since about 80% of the personnel was Albanians. Despite all that, there was revolt in 1981 with the demand “Kosovo republic”, obviously as a first step to independence. This was cracked down by the federal government and military rule was imposed. I find this revolt difficult to understand and unjustifiable. Do n’t the Albanians bear responsibility for the subsequent events? They should be honest enough to admit it. Obviously, it seems the Albanians dislike a balanced solution, as it was Kosovo then. It is a fact that around 250000 Serbs and Montenegrians left Kosovo due to economic situation and to pressure by their Albanian neighbours in an unfriendly environment. Eventually the Kosovo Serbs protested because they felt alienated and suppressed by the Albanian majority. Then appeared the low level bureaucrat Milosevic who supported their claims. In 1989 Serbia decided to reduce the level of autonomy of Kosovo. Albanians objected and Kosovo Serbs supported the modifications of the Serbian constitution. The Albanians went on political strikes, applied civil disobedience, refused to sign documents recognizing Serbia as their state and more than 100 thousand were fired from their jobs. The gap between the 2 communities grew. Milosevic government used administrative methods to solve the issue, alienated completely the Albanian population and the Albanians felt suppressed (and were by the Serb police: many were imprisoned and around 200 were killed from 1989 till 1997). Eventually after 1996 the guerrilla group Kosovo Liberation Army started attacks against Serb policemen, civilians, Albanians who were against independence. After 1998 the attacks escalated (with assistance of Western powers) and Serb government replied disproportionately against Albanian civilians (it displaced thousands and many were killed) and guerrillas (although not at the extent Turkey has cracked down against Kurd guerrillas). That gave the excuse (apart with carefully organized media campaign) for a western military intervention against Yugoslavia in march 1999. After june 1999, when Serb forces were defeated and left Kosovo, the Albanians have applied a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Many incidents of destroyed churches, cemeteries, houses and killings of unarmed Serb, Roma civilians have taken place since then. So, having western support and thanks partly to the policies of the submissive government of Tadic (DS- SPO-SPS- G 17) Albanians will probably achieve their goal: an independent ethnically clean Kosovo. But the Albanian posters must admit honestly that they can not claim they have moral status or rights.
PS: The current greek government of Papandreou is extremely proAmerican and submissive, so it may finally come in line with USA position.

Total bailout was in the region of 110billion euros carrying 5% APR and not free as you suggest.Total geeek debt is approximately $400 billion.

Your comment about Albanians supporting the Greek social security system with their national security conrtibutions is an indication that you haven't got a clue what is the status
of the Albanians in Greece.

The vast majority are operating within the black economy on cash in hand basis
because they're undocumented alliens.
As to the Greek influence in the balkans look at who owns most of the banks in Albania,Fyrom and two of the biggest banks in Turkey.
(Leonidas, 11 September 2010 11:13)

The Greek foreign debt alone is some $550 billion, the internal public debt is $440billion. The last bailout was not $110 billion but exactly $147 billion. Check you numbers again.

Only 13% of Albanians in Greece are undocumented workers according to Greek gov, due to issuance of work permits by the Greek gov several times in the last 2 decades. Alb in Greece constitute some 13% of total workforce, you do the math. They have worked hard for cheap wages amongst the worst discrimination and hardship in Europe as noted by many int'l reports of human rights, something that we do not forget.

Greece owns many banks in Alb, but they are small and have only some 13% (down from 76% 8 yrs ago) of total deposits. The largest banks now are Raiffeinsen, San Paolo Bank, Societe Generale, that control the vast majority of the banking system and total deposits. Of course the arrogant behaviour of Greece towards albs have shown its effect in many sectors of the economy.


Greece's behaviour towards its neigbors has done it no favor. Macedonians already have plans to reduce or eliminate the dependency on Greek ports and go through Albanian ones as soon as they have the capacity. The bulling and pressure upon its neigbors is having its effect as Alb and Macedonians are looking to alternative markets and alliances, like Turkey, Italy, Austria etc.

Greece is losing it's role as a regional leader by the day. It is a country in need of foreign assitance. As such it can not afford to get out of line with other EU members that are financing it.

Nothing new, no reason why Greece's position should change.

"their part is even more important now in defending Serbia's rights. "
(kate, 10 September 2010 12:22)

I still wonder why some people think the countries which don't recognize Kosovo do it to "defend Serbian rights". An illusion.

All EU countries pay 1% of their gross income ans VAT receipts to the EU coffers.The fact that Germany has the highest GDP and VAT receipts from exports is not Greece's fault.

Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.

The question you should ask is what Albania will do without the 4 billion euros that Albanian sent home from Greece every year.

The last part of your comment is also laughable.
Albania and Fyrom will dance to Greece's tune because both countries depend on the Greek economy.

Now Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece.Both countries are armed to their teeth and don't forget that Turkey has its own civil war with the Kurds which will unfold in the near future as soon as Iraq disintegrates.
(Leonidas, 10 September 2010 21:49)

$3-$4 Billion of aid? The last bailout (only the last one) cost the EU taxpayers $147 billion. Who are you kidding. The foreign and internal debt of Greece combined is some $1 trillion.

This gives you a clear picture of how Greece was build. Albanians in Greece send home only $400 mil, since all Alb immigrants send all together in a year some $1billion, but they do have savings of some $6 bill in Greek banks that use it to fund your bankrupt pension plans.

Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.

Only 9% of Alb exports and some 10% of imports are from Greece, and now with free trade agreement with EU Greece can be replaced immediately as a trade partner with no headaches.

Greece has lost any mussle now in the region. It did have some years back when the others were in a dire, but it abused it and it never grew out of that mentality to be a true leader...... very cheap and lame for a civilized nation and NATO country.

Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece, if Greece keeps quite, cause they have been eager to do so before I believe

Albanian posters here can try to put Greece down all they want but they have to realize that Greek approval is required for EU accession for both Albania and Kosovo. Greece can veto Kosovo’s or Albania’s entry into the EU. So who needs to have good neighborly relations more, an EU member or an EU prospect? And last I checked, Kosovo and Albania are still very underdeveloped economies compared to Greece. Say all you want about their financial crisis. Kosovo relies on foreign aid and hand outs to support its own budget. What does that say about your economy?

Rating agencies have downgraded Greece's status. Here's a simple lesson in economics:

It's not how much you make but how much you keep. If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.

Such is the case with Greece. Your goverment spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a stong economy.

You didn't then and you don't now.

I don't think Greeks will starve but I do think that Greece's best days are behind her...at least fora few decades to come.
(t, 11 September 2010 05:33

Rating agencies have also said in the past that Lehman Brothers,Aig,Ford,Citibank were solid as rock but they either went bust or had to be bailed out with $billions.

Greece is not the only country facing a financial crisis which had its origins on the Wall Street ponzi scheme.

All the more important now that the 5 Naysayers support Serbia's diplomatic efforts in finding an optimal solution with the rest of the EU over Kosovo before they change their stances.

I think it has always been a big mistake to make general comments about a nation being your "brothers" or "Friends". More to the point is to ask whom a certain stance about another country benefits from a wholly political perspective and not through any shared historical myth or religion.
I have heard nothing but "Mother Russia, Mother Russia" in the last few years but the truth is that good old Mutha Russia has been buying up as much cheap business in Serbia as the USA has done. As for Russia being our saviour in our hour of need - Where the heck where they from 1991 to 1999 and how the heck did they let NATO bomb us Serbs?
For all its misgivings Greece was the one who was sending bardges of oil and diesel up the river for the Serbs in the hotest moments of the sanctions against Serbia.
But the truth is that then and now nobody is supporting us Serbs because they feel a brotherly love for us it is just the cold business and political support that we are getting from those countries who have got more to potentially lose through them NOT supporting the Serbian viewpoint.
And one more thing - before you all get on "THE GREEK's" case about his post - He is not all wrong in what he says about our own government giving away Kosovo whilst we plebs expect "The" Greeks and "The" Russians to come and help us out here!
Good bye Kosovo and tomorrow it will be Raska!
Slobodan

-I can remember very well how some smart albanian kid was predicting Greece to "recognise" soon....
=)


well, at least that´s what they seem to read in their yellow-press ( which they are buying with european and US-american donation-money )!
(Jovan-


I would say that's money well spent.
Thanks for telling us how you feel.

Anyway, why is Greece repeadetly coming out claiming that they won't recognize Kosove?

If that's their stance so be it.
What I find interesting is that when a party repeats their stance over and over again...even if no one is asking them any longer then I think the opposite may happen.

Kind of like Tadic/Jeremic's claims leading up to the ICJ decision.
We'll see what happens.



-A country with a GDP per capita more than 30000$ is not easy to starve sir.
Greece is a famous tourist destination and has the biggest Merchant Fleet on the world near 20%.
No one gives money for free sir. Greece received loan and not a gift.
If they were not trust Greek economy, i see no reason for 120billion loan.
to_m-

There is no trust in the Greek economy or government. The reason for the bailout is to stop the bleeding. If Greece was not bailed out then Spain, Portugal and other countries were going to be dragged in the mess along with other countries...which would've had lasting global implications.

-Your assertion that Greeks will starve if not for the EU is laughable.Although 3 or 4 billion euros annually are sizeable amounts to Greece they are not amount much to a GDP of 340 billion euros.
Leonidas-


Rating agencies have downgraded Greece's status. Here's a simple lesson in economics:

It's not how much you make but how much you keep. If you spent more than you make then you will go bankrupt.

Such is the case with Greece. Your goverment spending has been through the roof for years. Your govt cooked the books and make it look as if you had a stong economy.

You didn't then and you don't now.

I don't think Greeks will starve but I do think that Greece's best days are behind her...at least fora few decades to come.

3-$4 Billion of aid? The last bailout (only the last one) cost the EU taxpayers $147 billion. Who are you kidding. The foreign and internal debt of Greece combined is some $1 trillion.

This gives you a clear picture of how Greece was build. Albanians in Greece send home only $400 mil, since all Alb immigrants send all together in a year some $1billion, but they do have savings of some $6 bill in Greek banks that use it to fund your bankrupt pension plans.

Albanians pay social security taxes in Greece that they will never enjoy, and statistically they are the most productive workforce in Greece and the worst paid.

Only 9% of Alb exports and some 10% of imports are from Greece, and now with free trade agreement with EU Greece can be replaced immediately as a trade partner with no headaches.

Greece has lost any mussle now in the region. It did have some years back when the others were in a dire, but it abused it and it never grew out of that mentality to be a true leader...... very cheap and lame for a civilized nation and NATO country.

Turkey is not stupid to start a war with Greece, if Greece keeps quite, cause they have been eager to do so before I believe
(Denis, 11 September 2010 00:05

Total bailout was in the region of 110billion euros carrying 5% APR and not free as you suggest.Total geeek debt is approximately $400 billion.

Your comment about Albanians supporting the Greek social security system with their national security conrtibutions is an indication that you haven't got a clue what is the status
of the Albanians in Greece.

The vast majority are operating within the black economy on cash in hand basis
because they're undocumented alliens.
As to the Greek influence in the balkans look at who owns most of the banks in Albania,Fyrom and two of the biggest banks in Turkey.

This coming from a Greek, we just gave 120 Billion Euros to repair the damage of corruption, on top of hundreds other billions given in aid prior to this package?!

I feel our tax money should never have been used to subsidise those who are ungrateful.
(Toni)
-
Thank the EU, not Greece.

@the Greek

Actually the truth is Greece does not hold Serbian side over Kosovo because of Serbian problem with its province being taken away but because of unsolved status of Cyprus. That's the facts!

"All the more important now that the 5 Naysayers support Serbia's diplomatic efforts in finding an optimal solution with the rest of the EU over Kosovo before they change their stances.
(Mike, 10 September 2010 13:35) "

Don't get your hopes up that Slovakia is going to hold out much longer. (There's a new government with fewer Hungarian-related problems in power these days.) An official visiting Kosovo says they won't be as stubborn over recognition as Cyprus. So, be grateful to the 5 that they didn't dis Serbia by recognizing Kosovo before the General Assembly vote, but don't count on them for much more in the way of support. After all, when push came to shove, they all signed onto the EU compromise position. Whether their statements in the addenda were intended to allow them to form a block to protect Serbia's interests during negotiations or just to salve their consciences is something we'll have to wait to see.

As for Greece: you can't get me to say anything bad about it. The Greeks invented the idea of democracy, protected it against the Persians from extinction, and preserved the idea in the writings of its philosophers until the world was more ready to accept it. Today, by accepting, however reluctantly, the need for unpopular measures to ensure the country's economic future, they are again demonstrating to the world that the people - fickle, stupid, and short-sighted as most of us are - really can be entrusted with governing themselves. Ourselves. (Over the long run - I have real doubts about what the American electorate will demonstrate in the November elections.)