I appreciate your effort to explain Albanian virulent accusations towards Romanians and my country. Also, for the history part, let's stop here, before more damage is done :) (Anyway, "slaves"? come on, you could do better... We all suffered from Turkish oppression in balkans, but the Romanian Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia were vassals, not under direct occupation as everybody south of Danube; there was no Pashalic here, and even the rulers, when they were appointed by the Sultan directly, were either local boyars or Greeks from important families in Constantinopole, and always Christians. It may not be important for you, but it is for us.)
My reply is here:
Romanian politicians have no interest in talking about Kosovo. It is very visible that only the President and the FM are talking on this issue. This is because Kosovo issue doesn't exist on Romanian political agenda, not even when is about foreign relations. We are in such a deep economical crisis that not even a second 9/11 would draw attention in Bucharest... Personally, I think it's wrong, but to be honest, not even the issue of Moldavia Republic is present in the media these days, and they are important for us, as Kosovo Albanians are important for Albanians (and viceversa). However, neither our president or the FM are making statements out of the blue - these are just reactions to EU officials visiting Bucharest and trying to persuade us to recognize Kosovo. Probably in the last weeks, such occasions are more numerous. And maybe Albanian media is paying exagerate attention to what is said in Bucharest, because Kosovo is a very important issue in Tirana and Pristina. Yes, I agree that the retoric used by our officials could be a little (more) diplomatic; however, we are annoyed by all this Kosovo issue, as many Romanians discovered in february 2008 that we've been lied - the NATO war proved to be not only about stopping Milosevic from destroying Albanians in Kosovo, but also to create a new state in Western Balkans, and this we did not signed for (nothing personal with Albanians). Be assured that nobody is happy here to be on the same side with Russia, and opposed to 22 EU countries, but life is complicated and politics are even more complicated.
Second, nobody is tying Moldavia with Kosovo in Bucharest. No official has even put the two names in the same discourse, let alone phrase. Probably I was confused in my post. What I wanted to say is that recognizing Kosovo we may hurt Moldavia and expose them to Russia abuse through Transdniestr issue, but this is visible for anybody paying attention to intl. politics. As a side note, what pisses me off is that Russia will be the winner no matter what happens with Kosovo - if Kosovo gets a UN seat, then Moscow asks the same for its puppets like Transdniestr or Ossetia, and if Kosovo stays out of UN, then Moscow makes Serbia happy and gets a foothold in Balkans!
Last but not least, we Romanians are also saying always that Kosovo is a very different problem, not to be compared or used as an example for any other case. The problem is, when big countries like America or Russia will decide to use Kosovo as a precedent, who will stand up against them? And with what arguments?
Therefore, as I was saying, there is more than meets the eye. Rest assured, Romania will not remain the last country in EU to refuse Kosovo recognition. Our President said, last year, that if under pressure, we will not sabotage EU, but will write down that we did it "with reserves and for the sake of EU". The problem comes from Greece and Cyprus. As for Slovakia, they will make noise but will bend, if Spain does; Bratislava is just upset because regarding the reconciliation with Hungarians, they are still behind Romania, and also their country is smaller as compared with Hungary.
(Romanian soccer players of today are just a shadow of the old generation... But there is still hope, that they will learn from mistakes. God help!)
I have no idea what is happening with Aromanians in Albania, and I apologies for that. In fact, most of Romanians have no clue what is the situation of Vlachs living in Serbia, which is closer than Albania. But I credit your words to be true. Also, I agree that many Romanian diplomats are morons. However, it is clear that Aromanians did forgot the old saying, "beware of the Greeks when they bring gifts" :(
To:
Alb jew
"Your [Romanian] government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo".
Well, what can be answered to this? You are just confirming my words... Sad.
Why such bitter hatred from the usual posters towards those countries that do not recognize Kosovo? What is wrong with you people? You can't even offer any intelligent analyses. Is this part of the 'no compromise' politics then?
Do as we say, not as we do?
Even more disturbing the way those in their glass houses who look down their nose at the african countries. So many shameless people!
Don't any of these states have the freedom of choice and right to make their own sovereign decisions without being blackmailed, bullied or bought off?
In the last few weeks, there has been an influx of posters on the B92 boards who do nothing but publish spite and insults (i.e. quite a lot more than is usual). Are you lot bored or something?
"Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
(Mirel from Albania, 3 September 2010 15:59)
Technically they are all bankrupted Mirel."
Yes sure, and Albania is the most wealthy country in Europe, except for the indipindint dream state of Kosova, of course, which is even more prosperous than Albania!
Stefan, if no one mentioned Spain, it has to do with the fact that we don't care at all about Spain, not because they are bigger. They are even more bankrupt than others, and they have a nation which is not a nation as a matter of fact. Regarding Romanians, we really don't hate them, it has nothing to do with Romanians and Albanians, it has to do with your stupid government. It was your government that even during Milosevic allowed smuggler to break the embargo, and his army was being furnished with weapons, ammunitions, fuel, food, clothes etc through Romania, and all this while hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed. So, please, save these argumentation on Moldoa, Timishoara etc. Your government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo
Stefan Grebu next time if you want to be taken seriously as someone applying logic you need to spare us veiled offensive words. It'd be as if we were telling you that when we defeated the turks for 25 straight years you were their slaves. Stuff like this is illogical, since after all, all of us where under their clutches for 500 years. Believe me, you're no better than the rest of us when it comes to Turks. They enslaved all of us for centuries.
Now that we've settled that. Lets speak more logically rather than under the effects of passion. There are people who will talk nonsense all the time; however answering nonsense with nonsense doesn't make you any more right. All I want to do is invite you to see the following just to see how boneheaded and wrong the moves of the Romanian state are. Albanians and Greeks have been traditional enemies for centuries now. Greece doesn't recognize Kosova either but they've taken an approach that is much different than Romania's. While they haven't recognized Kosova and don't plan to do so for a while they don't come across as more Serbs than the Serbs themselves. Meanwhile your leaders come out and make pompous declarations that outdo those of the Serbs. You can indeed not recognize and that is fine because that is your choice, however things start to stink when you have a Romanian leader speak every week against Kosova with more of a passion than the Serbs do. That is when things go downhill; and that is not conducive to good relationship between our two peoples. If you don't want to recognize that's fine but you need to quiet down a little bit; take Greece's approach. That is smart politics. What your boneheads do by being loudmouths is tie Kosova with Moldova's problems when they don't have to. It is a stupid policy to tie your problems with the fate of Kosova when you can simply state I wont recognize cuz its my choice and Kosova and our porblems are not the same and not tied anyway. Even the Russians say that Kosova and their problems are not the same. Even the Serbs do not tie Kosova with the problems they have in Sanxhak. They say Kosova is different. However you have a Romanian loudmouth take that loudspeaker every week proudly declaring that they won't recognize Kosova because Kosova and their problems are the same. That is simply foolish politics. Rather than not recognizing and being loud every week about how Kosova and your problems are the same they should be stating they don't recongize and these problems are not the same and remain quiet. Take themselves out of the limelight. That is smart politics, that is what Greece is doing. You should be taking a page out of their policy.
P.S Romania's team seems very week. Its a shadow of what it used to be 2-3 years ago. What happened?
"You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble." (EA)
-- The "real" news is that Kosovo remains in diplomatic deadlock. You can cheer for an additional recognition while disregarding two more states that don't. The "real" news is the same as it was two days ago: Kosovo is still risking a frozen conflict with neither Belgrade nor Pristina any closer to achieving their objectives.
"That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. "
You're right, of course - Tito's move was much less visible, publicly: the military changed its stance to complete neutrality, saying that if either Nato or the Warsaw Pact attacked Yugoslavia in any future war, Yugoslavia would automatically join the side of the other. Indicating officially it would join with Nato, even potentially, was seen as a big thing in some circles.
It may have been the personal-level support that the Slovaks still remember and are grateful for. I spent a summer in Czechoslovakia a couple of years after the invasion and went down to Yugoslavia for a week or so. My Slovak was pretty good at the time, and sometimes people mistook me for a Slovak (it never with a Slovak, for some reason...) - and they couldn't wait to tell me how much they admired the Czechs and Slovaks and how much they were against the Pact's move. They were invariably disappointed when I had to tell them that, no, unfortunately, I was just an American. But I carried their messages back and people in Bratislava were glad to hear they were not alone in the world. The general opinion is still obviously is that "the Serbs were with us then, and we should be with them now." Personally, I wish they'd check the details, but you have to admire their remembered gratitude - there's no that much of it in the world.
Romanians and Albanians in the past used to be very close,even Moldavian elite used to be of Albanian descent ... Romania and Moldavia are like Albania and Kosovo afterall ... anyawy, the anger of posters toward countries like Romania and Slovakia doe s not come because of any hate toward their people...it comes because of statements of their politicians ... spain does not show such support for serbia in their declarations, although Spainish campaigns have done the most damage considering the spanish influence in the world, spanish politicians don t talk about their 'fear' of losing an ally like Serbia. But when we hear slovakian and romanian politicians, they speak the same way our politicians used to talk in 1960s ...romanian premier comes in Tirana and arrogantly ask for aromanians to be a national minority, while aromanians in albania ALREADY were a national minority , ... i mean, do your politicians even consult the experts before going to another country ? Then, Basescu, not only talked about how Kosovo must not be independent here in Tirana, but also asked Tirana to open schools in aromanian instruction ... well, we would have opened aromanian schools since the early 90s if aromanians, which are orthodox, didn t declare themselves as greeks in order to get monthly payments from greeks ... if Tirana decides to open schools for aromanians, they themselves would actually be against such basic right because it would cut the money pouring down from athens ...but how would our president explain these things in a public conference?Romanian officials should have informed about their own nationals but I doubt Romania has experts close to their ministers and i doubt Romanian intellegence service is doing their job. The greeks in Albania, actually, are not harming Albania and Albaniansd by their ''if you are an orthodox-get 170euro per month-become greek'' policy, they are actually harming other minorities, such as aromanians, orthodox slavs and gypcies because even the votes of such minorities go to a party, which claims to protect the rights of all MINORITIES in Albania, but in fact, its only policy is converting as much of people to greeko- orthodoxy...of course, our politicians don t care about minorities as long as EU and UNESCO are silent, actually our politicans don t even care about majorities, if our politicans raised this issue, which they should do in order to protect aromanians from being assimilated, but if we dare to deal with this problem, greeks would bark in EU councils, halls and other international offices ... personally i feel bad that aromanians in albania, which in the past have always been by our side and strugled for Albania, are being taken advandage of by greeks, who not only are harming them politicaly, but also are transfoming them into artificial greeks.
!The latest news Namibia and South Africa do not. The diplomatic ballet remains in cosmic balance."
(Mike, 4 September 2010 06:06)
Mike,
I know you are smarter than your previous comment. You should know what a news is/means. For example if a lady gives birth to a child it is a news. If a lady hasn't got a child it is not a news...) You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble.
Both Russia and Slovakia said that they want to wait and respect the advisory opinion of ICJ and will work to enforce the opinion of this "respectable" court. However now they have changed their mind. They don't think that the ICJ is as respectable as it used to be 2 months ago.
To Ben and Mirel from Albania:
About Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus being "bankrupt", "scum" and not deserving respect, etc.
Next time you sing you Albanian national anthem, just remember: the tune was composed by the Romanian composer Ciprian Porumbescu! And your patriots up to 19th century enjoyed much freedom and liberty in my country... I suppose this is all in the pas, eh? Whatever.
Comments like yours, Ben and Mirel, are making difficult for us, Romanians, to even begin to understand you. Also, you make very easy for us to rationalize the refusal of Kosovo self-declare independence. Bear with me a little more: Romania had only two choices, 1) if we support Serbia over Kosovo separation, our EU allies will feel uncomfortable, and 2) if we support Kosovo, Serbs will feel betrayed. Now, please remember that Romanian did its share and contributed in stopping Milosevic and supporting NATO air campaign in 1999. But we were told that is intended to stop a criminal dictator from persecuting a minority, not to encourage that specific minority to become persecutors. (Please save any comments about how wonderful and democratic is Kosovo nowadays, I currently have three good friends serving in KFOR, I just spoke with one of them at the phone - by the way, congrats for the soccer game of yesterday night, your team did well in Romania, 1-1 is quite disappointing for us!)
Confronted with this dilemma, we decided that a good friend and neighbor - Serbia - should not be alienated just because people in leather chairs thousands of miles away decided we should. We have responsibilities for our own minority in Serbia, and we thought that they will take the brunt of a pro-Kosovo decision. Anyway, they are not doing very good in terms of rights and liberties, but this is to be settled between us and Serbia, in due time.
However, the way Albanians seem to think about Romania is confirming that our decision was correct. You control your tongue when is about Spain for not accepting your independence (because it's a big country and somehow wealthy?), but you treat Romania as the worst enemy (I got it, because we are scum...) for the same reason. No matter that what Romanians did for Albanians in the last centuries may be at least as important as what Spain did, if not more... You want to be understood, but you pay attention to our words as much as a little doggie to a butterfly: there was a guy posting here, a Romanian, couple months ago, who explained clearly that Romania cannot accept a precedent which may be used agains our sister-country Moldavia Republic, which is threatened by Russians with losing the separatist "Republic of Transdniestria"... But no, you guys keep it up with Transilvania, bla, bla, bla. Why, because you feel grateful towards Hungary? Have I mentioned that the party of Hungarian minority in Romania is still in government in Bucharest for the last almost 10 years? Or such a performance is a piece of cake for your "democratic" Kosovo, therefore deserves no attention? Yesterday 6 ministers out of 14 were changed in our Govt., but no the Magyar ones, although at least one of them, the Minister of Health, is quite a moron! Don't you think there may be something more than meets the eye? That things are not always supposed to be solved by the way of the Kalashnikov?
Next time when you feel like cursing us, save some energy for surfing the web and see what Romania is and does. You may learn a few useful tricks. Because despite being poor and undeveloped, we like to think we master the art of diplomacy&compromise. After all, look at us: we are entire and full as a country, in NATO and EU. And our soldiers are keeping the peace on your land, not the other way around. You may curse the president Basescu (I do the same, for internal political and economical reasons) but do not curse our people and its country, 'cause we were free and independent when you were just a villayet in the Ottoman Empire!
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
(Amer, 3 September 2010 19:43)
That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. However it was Albania that withdrew from Warsaw pact because of the invasion. The internal motives might have bee more complicated than this since the communist regime in Albania wouldn't even care for it's own people. Nevertheless this is a fact and Czechoslovakia and it's people enjoyed a profound respect within Albania for decades to come. The Prague Spring and the "Communism with human face" was a moment of hope and inspiration for half of Europe suffering under Russian occupation and it's sad that Slovakia today sides with it's former nemesis Russia for nostalgic reasons of Slavic "supremacy".
"Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo?"
===================
Oh Ian, do you think that countries are going to pump money into "Kosova" forever?
Which is easier, not recognising Kosovo or pumping good money after bad?
Who can keep this up for longer? Really, ask yourself.
The latest news Honduras recognises Kosovo independence!
Slovakia, Romania and other countries objecting Kosovo independence SO FAR are entitled to their own opionion. My point is that their objection is not about international law but their own interest and should not dare to block the will of the overwhelming majority of EU.
"I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
(Modest Mind, 3 September 2010 18:42) "
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
Never is a big word that no country in the world has been able to keep it to its end! I assume Slovakia may also recognise Kosovo someday. Serbia might as well after Kosovo is partitioned and few towns are exchanged! Until then, Kosovo has to be happy with it´s new recognition from Honduras and 12 more to come from CARICOM next week.
I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
(Top, 3 September 2010 15:32)
Whatever fantasy makes you feel better is ok, the fact is they have recognized Kosovo, and enough have done so that no matter what Serbia does they will never be able to reverse the independence of Kosovo.
italians also say ...''mai diré mai'' ...in less than a decade serbia itself will have to reckognise Kosovo, which would be a quite interesting event, and i wonder how serb politicians will justify in front of their people, but having in mind balkan politician by default, it is not a hard job after all, our politicians are good at lying and skipping responsibilities, the ordinary people know very well they are lying(telling even the most dump one we are having economical growth while all the basic products have had at least 33% increase in prize for the last three days is lying right to sb's face) yet they win the elections ...that is why ordinary people here don t care what slovakia does other than waste EU funds like the rest of bankrupt eastern fellas do, usually a shorter person, in presence of taller fellows, speakes at a much louder voice in order to feel equal.... that is the slovakian case ... not to talk about romania, i wonder how will romania defend its pride romanian citizens in UN assembies next time france says enough is enough after basescu rejected UN court verdict and even stated cj conlusion was not a seriosu one...i don t need to mention greece, the leading ridicule of EU for the last decade...i don t mind slovakia supporting or opposing us, it is another unimportant slavic country, actually i would be worried in case slovakia chooses us to their serb cousins, support from ''dragged from the nose'' and''traitors of their own allies'' countries is an insult to us ... maybe we should pay more attention to our economies, and not ''north of that river belongs to me, no, that valley is mine ,etc'' we, the balkan people, have gone through almost the same experiences, of course, this was because of the wars between the albanians, bosnians (serb&muslim) croats .... but even other countries like serbia proper,albania, romania, bulgaria greece have gone through social and economical hardship, pointing out how poor the albanians are does not wipe off from memory the images of serbs in line for little milk in early 90s... don t mind me, just talking , bad habbit i know, like when i were a child and used to shoot at street dogs with stones for fun.
"The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
(Daniel, 3 September 2010 12:29) "
Yes, and this is why I am surprised to find people here claiming that he said Slovakia was waiting for Serbia to recognize Kosovo. All he's saying is that his country will take Serbia's (ultimate, as-of-yet unrecognized) interests into account. And these are of course to improve its chances of entering the EU before the end of the millenium.
"Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has." (Zoran)
-- That basically the long and short of it. They are waiting for an optimal solution that takes Belgrade's interests into account. This means that countries that have and have not recognized are not really doing so because of any particular love for either Serbs or Albanians. Those that haven't are in fact putting pressure on the momentum for compromise - and might I add a quash on any unilateral acts of secession. Therefore I see nothing different in the statements coming out of Bratislava.
"We only need Spain, the rest are all irrelevant who will fall like dominoes." (Pejoni)
-- Then I strongly suggest you send Hysterical Skender, or whoever does his job, to Madrid and make with the niceness instead of thinking Spain will suddenly do a 180.
Who cares whether you recognize Kosova or not,after Serbia does?
To albanian people you are going to be forever, as the serbian stooges, who stood against them for no reason.I never want a recognition from the scum countries of EU,after Serbia does recognise Kosovo
.I don't understand what we have done to slovakians and rumanians to hate us?
I was excpecting a NO from Greece and their lapdog Cyprus,but from Slovakia?We never fought against them and Albania have recognised them since 1993.
Before IJC opinion was deliver,they were saying we are going to respect the IJC opinion,now that the opinion was delivered they are trying to make excuses.
What a clowns!I can not understand how they manage to enter EU,when they don't respect the fondamental right of the people to decide their destiny.
Frankly speaking, I have more rescpect for Serbia as a country, than for scums like Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
"Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries"
(M, 3 September 2010 11:33)
It should be obvious for everyone that the decision of countries to recognize Kosovo or not is determined by their own interests, and not the love or hate for Serbs or Kosovo Albanians: Countries that refuse to recognize mostly have own minorities, and how stupid would they be to accept an unilaterally declared independent state? The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
On the topic...this seems still the usual game made by some of the "lonely 5's"...Probably if EU increase some funds and Slowakia will gain some new money , than never will become yes..Now everything in Brussels is used to attract some damned money !!
"The advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the issue was not made following a thorough judgment of the case, Basescu told the annual meeting of Romanian diplomats."
Here we have Basescu saying that ICJ is not thorough enough, that is that a UN body is superficial. On the same side we have a close ally of Romania, Serbia, who is saying that the draft at the UNGA is about restoring the prestige of the UN.
Now, when Romania will need the UN this will not look good.
I agree 100% that if Serbia were to approve of Kosovo's independence then Slovakia would recognize Kosovo's independence. That makes great sense. Indeed if Serbia were to recognize Kosovo's UDI, I'd hope all countries would recognize it. However, until that happens, not much will change. The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
Albanians will misunderstand that statement, and celebrate again a phantom-victory.There is no reason to recognize Kosovo, because concerns have grown istead of falling. Organized crime is rising and effecting the region. There is no foreign investment which Kosovo needs desperately. EULEX is facing problems fighting crime and corruption on top governmental level. Imagine, the Central Bank Governer is jailed, but still keeping position, the transport minister should be jailed but EULEX worried about the Clans reaction, so he's keeping position. Many minister and mayors are charged for worse crimes but keep on serving themselves from public budgets. Kosovo is further away from new recognitions than it was once. The foreign minister of Kosovo is now calling for war. I think B92 should bring reports on this topic.
Oh dear oh dear…. They are bowed to the pressure from the EU and USA. I thought that Slovakia and Rumania were taking a principled stance, though show them bit of ‘Carrot and they are on the stick’.
Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries (obviously more carrots).
Nothing new. I'm sure in case a mutual agreement is reached, there will be many countries recognizing Kosovo, no reason why not, because they only don't wanna support unilateral split-off 'states' created by ethnic minorities.
Interesting really. Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has. In that case, it is Serbia who has stated it will never recognise Kosovo. In fact, Cyprus has said the same.
It is game over for "Kosova". In fact, it never even started and the only path to lasting peace is through the negotiating table. This is becoming evermore obvious.
Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo? Slovakia's closest allies and neighbours recognise Kosovo and bilaterally communicate with Kosovo on a daily basis, there is no-way Slovakia can ignore Kosovo forever. Slovakia already recognises the Kosovan Passport. Serbia's diplomatic offence is almost over and soon it'll become a lot easy for countries to recognise Kosovo when Russia is no longer on their back building them nuclear power plants like in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Iran; also when Serbia stops giving free weapons deals to countries like PNG and Libya etc.
And it was just few weeks ago before the ICJ rule that our Serbian "great experts" in international law were forecasting: who will be the first country to withdraw the recognition after the ICJ's rule.
Well it seems that we are in front of: who from the block of EU 5 dissidents will acknowledge that their position is in clear violation of the international law.
As Italians say: the world is made of stairs, there are the one that go down and others that go up.
Who cares whether you recognize Kosova or not,after Serbia does?
To albanian people you are going to be forever, as the serbian stooges, who stood against them for no reason.I never want a recognition from the scum countries of EU,after Serbia does recognise Kosovo
.I don't understand what we have done to slovakians and rumanians to hate us?
I was excpecting a NO from Greece and their lapdog Cyprus,but from Slovakia?We never fought against them and Albania have recognised them since 1993.
Before IJC opinion was deliver,they were saying we are going to respect the IJC opinion,now that the opinion was delivered they are trying to make excuses.
What a clowns!I can not understand how they manage to enter EU,when they don't respect the fondamental right of the people to decide their destiny.
Frankly speaking, I have more rescpect for Serbia as a country, than for scums like Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
And it was just few weeks ago before the ICJ rule that our Serbian "great experts" in international law were forecasting: who will be the first country to withdraw the recognition after the ICJ's rule.
Well it seems that we are in front of: who from the block of EU 5 dissidents will acknowledge that their position is in clear violation of the international law.
As Italians say: the world is made of stairs, there are the one that go down and others that go up.
Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo? Slovakia's closest allies and neighbours recognise Kosovo and bilaterally communicate with Kosovo on a daily basis, there is no-way Slovakia can ignore Kosovo forever. Slovakia already recognises the Kosovan Passport. Serbia's diplomatic offence is almost over and soon it'll become a lot easy for countries to recognise Kosovo when Russia is no longer on their back building them nuclear power plants like in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Iran; also when Serbia stops giving free weapons deals to countries like PNG and Libya etc.
Interesting really. Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has. In that case, it is Serbia who has stated it will never recognise Kosovo. In fact, Cyprus has said the same.
It is game over for "Kosova". In fact, it never even started and the only path to lasting peace is through the negotiating table. This is becoming evermore obvious.
Oh dear oh dear…. They are bowed to the pressure from the EU and USA. I thought that Slovakia and Rumania were taking a principled stance, though show them bit of ‘Carrot and they are on the stick’.
Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries (obviously more carrots).
The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
(Top, 3 September 2010 15:32)
Whatever fantasy makes you feel better is ok, the fact is they have recognized Kosovo, and enough have done so that no matter what Serbia does they will never be able to reverse the independence of Kosovo.
The latest news Honduras recognises Kosovo independence!
Slovakia, Romania and other countries objecting Kosovo independence SO FAR are entitled to their own opionion. My point is that their objection is not about international law but their own interest and should not dare to block the will of the overwhelming majority of EU.
Nothing new. I'm sure in case a mutual agreement is reached, there will be many countries recognizing Kosovo, no reason why not, because they only don't wanna support unilateral split-off 'states' created by ethnic minorities.
I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
Albanians will misunderstand that statement, and celebrate again a phantom-victory.There is no reason to recognize Kosovo, because concerns have grown istead of falling. Organized crime is rising and effecting the region. There is no foreign investment which Kosovo needs desperately. EULEX is facing problems fighting crime and corruption on top governmental level. Imagine, the Central Bank Governer is jailed, but still keeping position, the transport minister should be jailed but EULEX worried about the Clans reaction, so he's keeping position. Many minister and mayors are charged for worse crimes but keep on serving themselves from public budgets. Kosovo is further away from new recognitions than it was once. The foreign minister of Kosovo is now calling for war. I think B92 should bring reports on this topic.
"Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has." (Zoran)
-- That basically the long and short of it. They are waiting for an optimal solution that takes Belgrade's interests into account. This means that countries that have and have not recognized are not really doing so because of any particular love for either Serbs or Albanians. Those that haven't are in fact putting pressure on the momentum for compromise - and might I add a quash on any unilateral acts of secession. Therefore I see nothing different in the statements coming out of Bratislava.
"We only need Spain, the rest are all irrelevant who will fall like dominoes." (Pejoni)
-- Then I strongly suggest you send Hysterical Skender, or whoever does his job, to Madrid and make with the niceness instead of thinking Spain will suddenly do a 180.
I agree 100% that if Serbia were to approve of Kosovo's independence then Slovakia would recognize Kosovo's independence. That makes great sense. Indeed if Serbia were to recognize Kosovo's UDI, I'd hope all countries would recognize it. However, until that happens, not much will change. The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
On the topic...this seems still the usual game made by some of the "lonely 5's"...Probably if EU increase some funds and Slowakia will gain some new money , than never will become yes..Now everything in Brussels is used to attract some damned money !!
italians also say ...''mai diré mai'' ...in less than a decade serbia itself will have to reckognise Kosovo, which would be a quite interesting event, and i wonder how serb politicians will justify in front of their people, but having in mind balkan politician by default, it is not a hard job after all, our politicians are good at lying and skipping responsibilities, the ordinary people know very well they are lying(telling even the most dump one we are having economical growth while all the basic products have had at least 33% increase in prize for the last three days is lying right to sb's face) yet they win the elections ...that is why ordinary people here don t care what slovakia does other than waste EU funds like the rest of bankrupt eastern fellas do, usually a shorter person, in presence of taller fellows, speakes at a much louder voice in order to feel equal.... that is the slovakian case ... not to talk about romania, i wonder how will romania defend its pride romanian citizens in UN assembies next time france says enough is enough after basescu rejected UN court verdict and even stated cj conlusion was not a seriosu one...i don t need to mention greece, the leading ridicule of EU for the last decade...i don t mind slovakia supporting or opposing us, it is another unimportant slavic country, actually i would be worried in case slovakia chooses us to their serb cousins, support from ''dragged from the nose'' and''traitors of their own allies'' countries is an insult to us ... maybe we should pay more attention to our economies, and not ''north of that river belongs to me, no, that valley is mine ,etc'' we, the balkan people, have gone through almost the same experiences, of course, this was because of the wars between the albanians, bosnians (serb&muslim) croats .... but even other countries like serbia proper,albania, romania, bulgaria greece have gone through social and economical hardship, pointing out how poor the albanians are does not wipe off from memory the images of serbs in line for little milk in early 90s... don t mind me, just talking , bad habbit i know, like when i were a child and used to shoot at street dogs with stones for fun.
Both Russia and Slovakia said that they want to wait and respect the advisory opinion of ICJ and will work to enforce the opinion of this "respectable" court. However now they have changed their mind. They don't think that the ICJ is as respectable as it used to be 2 months ago.
"The advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the issue was not made following a thorough judgment of the case, Basescu told the annual meeting of Romanian diplomats."
Here we have Basescu saying that ICJ is not thorough enough, that is that a UN body is superficial. On the same side we have a close ally of Romania, Serbia, who is saying that the draft at the UNGA is about restoring the prestige of the UN.
Now, when Romania will need the UN this will not look good.
Never is a big word that no country in the world has been able to keep it to its end! I assume Slovakia may also recognise Kosovo someday. Serbia might as well after Kosovo is partitioned and few towns are exchanged! Until then, Kosovo has to be happy with it´s new recognition from Honduras and 12 more to come from CARICOM next week.
To Ben and Mirel from Albania:
About Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus being "bankrupt", "scum" and not deserving respect, etc.
Next time you sing you Albanian national anthem, just remember: the tune was composed by the Romanian composer Ciprian Porumbescu! And your patriots up to 19th century enjoyed much freedom and liberty in my country... I suppose this is all in the pas, eh? Whatever.
Comments like yours, Ben and Mirel, are making difficult for us, Romanians, to even begin to understand you. Also, you make very easy for us to rationalize the refusal of Kosovo self-declare independence. Bear with me a little more: Romania had only two choices, 1) if we support Serbia over Kosovo separation, our EU allies will feel uncomfortable, and 2) if we support Kosovo, Serbs will feel betrayed. Now, please remember that Romanian did its share and contributed in stopping Milosevic and supporting NATO air campaign in 1999. But we were told that is intended to stop a criminal dictator from persecuting a minority, not to encourage that specific minority to become persecutors. (Please save any comments about how wonderful and democratic is Kosovo nowadays, I currently have three good friends serving in KFOR, I just spoke with one of them at the phone - by the way, congrats for the soccer game of yesterday night, your team did well in Romania, 1-1 is quite disappointing for us!)
Confronted with this dilemma, we decided that a good friend and neighbor - Serbia - should not be alienated just because people in leather chairs thousands of miles away decided we should. We have responsibilities for our own minority in Serbia, and we thought that they will take the brunt of a pro-Kosovo decision. Anyway, they are not doing very good in terms of rights and liberties, but this is to be settled between us and Serbia, in due time.
However, the way Albanians seem to think about Romania is confirming that our decision was correct. You control your tongue when is about Spain for not accepting your independence (because it's a big country and somehow wealthy?), but you treat Romania as the worst enemy (I got it, because we are scum...) for the same reason. No matter that what Romanians did for Albanians in the last centuries may be at least as important as what Spain did, if not more... You want to be understood, but you pay attention to our words as much as a little doggie to a butterfly: there was a guy posting here, a Romanian, couple months ago, who explained clearly that Romania cannot accept a precedent which may be used agains our sister-country Moldavia Republic, which is threatened by Russians with losing the separatist "Republic of Transdniestria"... But no, you guys keep it up with Transilvania, bla, bla, bla. Why, because you feel grateful towards Hungary? Have I mentioned that the party of Hungarian minority in Romania is still in government in Bucharest for the last almost 10 years? Or such a performance is a piece of cake for your "democratic" Kosovo, therefore deserves no attention? Yesterday 6 ministers out of 14 were changed in our Govt., but no the Magyar ones, although at least one of them, the Minister of Health, is quite a moron! Don't you think there may be something more than meets the eye? That things are not always supposed to be solved by the way of the Kalashnikov?
Next time when you feel like cursing us, save some energy for surfing the web and see what Romania is and does. You may learn a few useful tricks. Because despite being poor and undeveloped, we like to think we master the art of diplomacy&compromise. After all, look at us: we are entire and full as a country, in NATO and EU. And our soldiers are keeping the peace on your land, not the other way around. You may curse the president Basescu (I do the same, for internal political and economical reasons) but do not curse our people and its country, 'cause we were free and independent when you were just a villayet in the Ottoman Empire!
"The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
(Daniel, 3 September 2010 12:29) "
Yes, and this is why I am surprised to find people here claiming that he said Slovakia was waiting for Serbia to recognize Kosovo. All he's saying is that his country will take Serbia's (ultimate, as-of-yet unrecognized) interests into account. And these are of course to improve its chances of entering the EU before the end of the millenium.
"Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries"
(M, 3 September 2010 11:33)
It should be obvious for everyone that the decision of countries to recognize Kosovo or not is determined by their own interests, and not the love or hate for Serbs or Kosovo Albanians: Countries that refuse to recognize mostly have own minorities, and how stupid would they be to accept an unilaterally declared independent state? The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
I have no idea what is happening with Aromanians in Albania, and I apologies for that. In fact, most of Romanians have no clue what is the situation of Vlachs living in Serbia, which is closer than Albania. But I credit your words to be true. Also, I agree that many Romanian diplomats are morons. However, it is clear that Aromanians did forgot the old saying, "beware of the Greeks when they bring gifts" :(
To:
Alb jew
"Your [Romanian] government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo".
Well, what can be answered to this? You are just confirming my words... Sad.
"I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
(Modest Mind, 3 September 2010 18:42) "
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
I appreciate your effort to explain Albanian virulent accusations towards Romanians and my country. Also, for the history part, let's stop here, before more damage is done :) (Anyway, "slaves"? come on, you could do better... We all suffered from Turkish oppression in balkans, but the Romanian Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia were vassals, not under direct occupation as everybody south of Danube; there was no Pashalic here, and even the rulers, when they were appointed by the Sultan directly, were either local boyars or Greeks from important families in Constantinopole, and always Christians. It may not be important for you, but it is for us.)
My reply is here:
Romanian politicians have no interest in talking about Kosovo. It is very visible that only the President and the FM are talking on this issue. This is because Kosovo issue doesn't exist on Romanian political agenda, not even when is about foreign relations. We are in such a deep economical crisis that not even a second 9/11 would draw attention in Bucharest... Personally, I think it's wrong, but to be honest, not even the issue of Moldavia Republic is present in the media these days, and they are important for us, as Kosovo Albanians are important for Albanians (and viceversa). However, neither our president or the FM are making statements out of the blue - these are just reactions to EU officials visiting Bucharest and trying to persuade us to recognize Kosovo. Probably in the last weeks, such occasions are more numerous. And maybe Albanian media is paying exagerate attention to what is said in Bucharest, because Kosovo is a very important issue in Tirana and Pristina. Yes, I agree that the retoric used by our officials could be a little (more) diplomatic; however, we are annoyed by all this Kosovo issue, as many Romanians discovered in february 2008 that we've been lied - the NATO war proved to be not only about stopping Milosevic from destroying Albanians in Kosovo, but also to create a new state in Western Balkans, and this we did not signed for (nothing personal with Albanians). Be assured that nobody is happy here to be on the same side with Russia, and opposed to 22 EU countries, but life is complicated and politics are even more complicated.
Second, nobody is tying Moldavia with Kosovo in Bucharest. No official has even put the two names in the same discourse, let alone phrase. Probably I was confused in my post. What I wanted to say is that recognizing Kosovo we may hurt Moldavia and expose them to Russia abuse through Transdniestr issue, but this is visible for anybody paying attention to intl. politics. As a side note, what pisses me off is that Russia will be the winner no matter what happens with Kosovo - if Kosovo gets a UN seat, then Moscow asks the same for its puppets like Transdniestr or Ossetia, and if Kosovo stays out of UN, then Moscow makes Serbia happy and gets a foothold in Balkans!
Last but not least, we Romanians are also saying always that Kosovo is a very different problem, not to be compared or used as an example for any other case. The problem is, when big countries like America or Russia will decide to use Kosovo as a precedent, who will stand up against them? And with what arguments?
Therefore, as I was saying, there is more than meets the eye. Rest assured, Romania will not remain the last country in EU to refuse Kosovo recognition. Our President said, last year, that if under pressure, we will not sabotage EU, but will write down that we did it "with reserves and for the sake of EU". The problem comes from Greece and Cyprus. As for Slovakia, they will make noise but will bend, if Spain does; Bratislava is just upset because regarding the reconciliation with Hungarians, they are still behind Romania, and also their country is smaller as compared with Hungary.
(Romanian soccer players of today are just a shadow of the old generation... But there is still hope, that they will learn from mistakes. God help!)
Stefan, if no one mentioned Spain, it has to do with the fact that we don't care at all about Spain, not because they are bigger. They are even more bankrupt than others, and they have a nation which is not a nation as a matter of fact. Regarding Romanians, we really don't hate them, it has nothing to do with Romanians and Albanians, it has to do with your stupid government. It was your government that even during Milosevic allowed smuggler to break the embargo, and his army was being furnished with weapons, ammunitions, fuel, food, clothes etc through Romania, and all this while hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed. So, please, save these argumentation on Moldoa, Timishoara etc. Your government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
(Amer, 3 September 2010 19:43)
That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. However it was Albania that withdrew from Warsaw pact because of the invasion. The internal motives might have bee more complicated than this since the communist regime in Albania wouldn't even care for it's own people. Nevertheless this is a fact and Czechoslovakia and it's people enjoyed a profound respect within Albania for decades to come. The Prague Spring and the "Communism with human face" was a moment of hope and inspiration for half of Europe suffering under Russian occupation and it's sad that Slovakia today sides with it's former nemesis Russia for nostalgic reasons of Slavic "supremacy".
Stefan Grebu next time if you want to be taken seriously as someone applying logic you need to spare us veiled offensive words. It'd be as if we were telling you that when we defeated the turks for 25 straight years you were their slaves. Stuff like this is illogical, since after all, all of us where under their clutches for 500 years. Believe me, you're no better than the rest of us when it comes to Turks. They enslaved all of us for centuries.
Now that we've settled that. Lets speak more logically rather than under the effects of passion. There are people who will talk nonsense all the time; however answering nonsense with nonsense doesn't make you any more right. All I want to do is invite you to see the following just to see how boneheaded and wrong the moves of the Romanian state are. Albanians and Greeks have been traditional enemies for centuries now. Greece doesn't recognize Kosova either but they've taken an approach that is much different than Romania's. While they haven't recognized Kosova and don't plan to do so for a while they don't come across as more Serbs than the Serbs themselves. Meanwhile your leaders come out and make pompous declarations that outdo those of the Serbs. You can indeed not recognize and that is fine because that is your choice, however things start to stink when you have a Romanian leader speak every week against Kosova with more of a passion than the Serbs do. That is when things go downhill; and that is not conducive to good relationship between our two peoples. If you don't want to recognize that's fine but you need to quiet down a little bit; take Greece's approach. That is smart politics. What your boneheads do by being loudmouths is tie Kosova with Moldova's problems when they don't have to. It is a stupid policy to tie your problems with the fate of Kosova when you can simply state I wont recognize cuz its my choice and Kosova and our porblems are not the same and not tied anyway. Even the Russians say that Kosova and their problems are not the same. Even the Serbs do not tie Kosova with the problems they have in Sanxhak. They say Kosova is different. However you have a Romanian loudmouth take that loudspeaker every week proudly declaring that they won't recognize Kosova because Kosova and their problems are the same. That is simply foolish politics. Rather than not recognizing and being loud every week about how Kosova and your problems are the same they should be stating they don't recongize and these problems are not the same and remain quiet. Take themselves out of the limelight. That is smart politics, that is what Greece is doing. You should be taking a page out of their policy.
P.S Romania's team seems very week. Its a shadow of what it used to be 2-3 years ago. What happened?
Why such bitter hatred from the usual posters towards those countries that do not recognize Kosovo? What is wrong with you people? You can't even offer any intelligent analyses. Is this part of the 'no compromise' politics then?
Do as we say, not as we do?
Even more disturbing the way those in their glass houses who look down their nose at the african countries. So many shameless people!
Don't any of these states have the freedom of choice and right to make their own sovereign decisions without being blackmailed, bullied or bought off?
In the last few weeks, there has been an influx of posters on the B92 boards who do nothing but publish spite and insults (i.e. quite a lot more than is usual). Are you lot bored or something?
!The latest news Namibia and South Africa do not. The diplomatic ballet remains in cosmic balance."
(Mike, 4 September 2010 06:06)
Mike,
I know you are smarter than your previous comment. You should know what a news is/means. For example if a lady gives birth to a child it is a news. If a lady hasn't got a child it is not a news...) You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble.
"Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo?"
===================
Oh Ian, do you think that countries are going to pump money into "Kosova" forever?
Which is easier, not recognising Kosovo or pumping good money after bad?
Who can keep this up for longer? Really, ask yourself.
Romanians and Albanians in the past used to be very close,even Moldavian elite used to be of Albanian descent ... Romania and Moldavia are like Albania and Kosovo afterall ... anyawy, the anger of posters toward countries like Romania and Slovakia doe s not come because of any hate toward their people...it comes because of statements of their politicians ... spain does not show such support for serbia in their declarations, although Spainish campaigns have done the most damage considering the spanish influence in the world, spanish politicians don t talk about their 'fear' of losing an ally like Serbia. But when we hear slovakian and romanian politicians, they speak the same way our politicians used to talk in 1960s ...romanian premier comes in Tirana and arrogantly ask for aromanians to be a national minority, while aromanians in albania ALREADY were a national minority , ... i mean, do your politicians even consult the experts before going to another country ? Then, Basescu, not only talked about how Kosovo must not be independent here in Tirana, but also asked Tirana to open schools in aromanian instruction ... well, we would have opened aromanian schools since the early 90s if aromanians, which are orthodox, didn t declare themselves as greeks in order to get monthly payments from greeks ... if Tirana decides to open schools for aromanians, they themselves would actually be against such basic right because it would cut the money pouring down from athens ...but how would our president explain these things in a public conference?Romanian officials should have informed about their own nationals but I doubt Romania has experts close to their ministers and i doubt Romanian intellegence service is doing their job. The greeks in Albania, actually, are not harming Albania and Albaniansd by their ''if you are an orthodox-get 170euro per month-become greek'' policy, they are actually harming other minorities, such as aromanians, orthodox slavs and gypcies because even the votes of such minorities go to a party, which claims to protect the rights of all MINORITIES in Albania, but in fact, its only policy is converting as much of people to greeko- orthodoxy...of course, our politicians don t care about minorities as long as EU and UNESCO are silent, actually our politicans don t even care about majorities, if our politicans raised this issue, which they should do in order to protect aromanians from being assimilated, but if we dare to deal with this problem, greeks would bark in EU councils, halls and other international offices ... personally i feel bad that aromanians in albania, which in the past have always been by our side and strugled for Albania, are being taken advandage of by greeks, who not only are harming them politicaly, but also are transfoming them into artificial greeks.
"You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble." (EA)
-- The "real" news is that Kosovo remains in diplomatic deadlock. You can cheer for an additional recognition while disregarding two more states that don't. The "real" news is the same as it was two days ago: Kosovo is still risking a frozen conflict with neither Belgrade nor Pristina any closer to achieving their objectives.
"Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
(Mirel from Albania, 3 September 2010 15:59)
Technically they are all bankrupted Mirel."
Yes sure, and Albania is the most wealthy country in Europe, except for the indipindint dream state of Kosova, of course, which is even more prosperous than Albania!
"That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. "
You're right, of course - Tito's move was much less visible, publicly: the military changed its stance to complete neutrality, saying that if either Nato or the Warsaw Pact attacked Yugoslavia in any future war, Yugoslavia would automatically join the side of the other. Indicating officially it would join with Nato, even potentially, was seen as a big thing in some circles.
It may have been the personal-level support that the Slovaks still remember and are grateful for. I spent a summer in Czechoslovakia a couple of years after the invasion and went down to Yugoslavia for a week or so. My Slovak was pretty good at the time, and sometimes people mistook me for a Slovak (it never with a Slovak, for some reason...) - and they couldn't wait to tell me how much they admired the Czechs and Slovaks and how much they were against the Pact's move. They were invariably disappointed when I had to tell them that, no, unfortunately, I was just an American. But I carried their messages back and people in Bratislava were glad to hear they were not alone in the world. The general opinion is still obviously is that "the Serbs were with us then, and we should be with them now." Personally, I wish they'd check the details, but you have to admire their remembered gratitude - there's no that much of it in the world.
Who cares whether you recognize Kosova or not,after Serbia does?
To albanian people you are going to be forever, as the serbian stooges, who stood against them for no reason.I never want a recognition from the scum countries of EU,after Serbia does recognise Kosovo
.I don't understand what we have done to slovakians and rumanians to hate us?
I was excpecting a NO from Greece and their lapdog Cyprus,but from Slovakia?We never fought against them and Albania have recognised them since 1993.
Before IJC opinion was deliver,they were saying we are going to respect the IJC opinion,now that the opinion was delivered they are trying to make excuses.
What a clowns!I can not understand how they manage to enter EU,when they don't respect the fondamental right of the people to decide their destiny.
Frankly speaking, I have more rescpect for Serbia as a country, than for scums like Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
Albanians will misunderstand that statement, and celebrate again a phantom-victory.There is no reason to recognize Kosovo, because concerns have grown istead of falling. Organized crime is rising and effecting the region. There is no foreign investment which Kosovo needs desperately. EULEX is facing problems fighting crime and corruption on top governmental level. Imagine, the Central Bank Governer is jailed, but still keeping position, the transport minister should be jailed but EULEX worried about the Clans reaction, so he's keeping position. Many minister and mayors are charged for worse crimes but keep on serving themselves from public budgets. Kosovo is further away from new recognitions than it was once. The foreign minister of Kosovo is now calling for war. I think B92 should bring reports on this topic.
Interesting really. Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has. In that case, it is Serbia who has stated it will never recognise Kosovo. In fact, Cyprus has said the same.
It is game over for "Kosova". In fact, it never even started and the only path to lasting peace is through the negotiating table. This is becoming evermore obvious.
Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo? Slovakia's closest allies and neighbours recognise Kosovo and bilaterally communicate with Kosovo on a daily basis, there is no-way Slovakia can ignore Kosovo forever. Slovakia already recognises the Kosovan Passport. Serbia's diplomatic offence is almost over and soon it'll become a lot easy for countries to recognise Kosovo when Russia is no longer on their back building them nuclear power plants like in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Iran; also when Serbia stops giving free weapons deals to countries like PNG and Libya etc.
italians also say ...''mai diré mai'' ...in less than a decade serbia itself will have to reckognise Kosovo, which would be a quite interesting event, and i wonder how serb politicians will justify in front of their people, but having in mind balkan politician by default, it is not a hard job after all, our politicians are good at lying and skipping responsibilities, the ordinary people know very well they are lying(telling even the most dump one we are having economical growth while all the basic products have had at least 33% increase in prize for the last three days is lying right to sb's face) yet they win the elections ...that is why ordinary people here don t care what slovakia does other than waste EU funds like the rest of bankrupt eastern fellas do, usually a shorter person, in presence of taller fellows, speakes at a much louder voice in order to feel equal.... that is the slovakian case ... not to talk about romania, i wonder how will romania defend its pride romanian citizens in UN assembies next time france says enough is enough after basescu rejected UN court verdict and even stated cj conlusion was not a seriosu one...i don t need to mention greece, the leading ridicule of EU for the last decade...i don t mind slovakia supporting or opposing us, it is another unimportant slavic country, actually i would be worried in case slovakia chooses us to their serb cousins, support from ''dragged from the nose'' and''traitors of their own allies'' countries is an insult to us ... maybe we should pay more attention to our economies, and not ''north of that river belongs to me, no, that valley is mine ,etc'' we, the balkan people, have gone through almost the same experiences, of course, this was because of the wars between the albanians, bosnians (serb&muslim) croats .... but even other countries like serbia proper,albania, romania, bulgaria greece have gone through social and economical hardship, pointing out how poor the albanians are does not wipe off from memory the images of serbs in line for little milk in early 90s... don t mind me, just talking , bad habbit i know, like when i were a child and used to shoot at street dogs with stones for fun.
And it was just few weeks ago before the ICJ rule that our Serbian "great experts" in international law were forecasting: who will be the first country to withdraw the recognition after the ICJ's rule.
Well it seems that we are in front of: who from the block of EU 5 dissidents will acknowledge that their position is in clear violation of the international law.
As Italians say: the world is made of stairs, there are the one that go down and others that go up.
"The advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the issue was not made following a thorough judgment of the case, Basescu told the annual meeting of Romanian diplomats."
Here we have Basescu saying that ICJ is not thorough enough, that is that a UN body is superficial. On the same side we have a close ally of Romania, Serbia, who is saying that the draft at the UNGA is about restoring the prestige of the UN.
Now, when Romania will need the UN this will not look good.
On the topic...this seems still the usual game made by some of the "lonely 5's"...Probably if EU increase some funds and Slowakia will gain some new money , than never will become yes..Now everything in Brussels is used to attract some damned money !!
Nothing new. I'm sure in case a mutual agreement is reached, there will be many countries recognizing Kosovo, no reason why not, because they only don't wanna support unilateral split-off 'states' created by ethnic minorities.
Oh dear oh dear…. They are bowed to the pressure from the EU and USA. I thought that Slovakia and Rumania were taking a principled stance, though show them bit of ‘Carrot and they are on the stick’.
Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries (obviously more carrots).
I agree 100% that if Serbia were to approve of Kosovo's independence then Slovakia would recognize Kosovo's independence. That makes great sense. Indeed if Serbia were to recognize Kosovo's UDI, I'd hope all countries would recognize it. However, until that happens, not much will change. The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
(Top, 3 September 2010 15:32)
Whatever fantasy makes you feel better is ok, the fact is they have recognized Kosovo, and enough have done so that no matter what Serbia does they will never be able to reverse the independence of Kosovo.
"Many countries have the same position. They have not said they would never recognise Kosovo but many have said they would only recognise Kosovo after Serbia has." (Zoran)
-- That basically the long and short of it. They are waiting for an optimal solution that takes Belgrade's interests into account. This means that countries that have and have not recognized are not really doing so because of any particular love for either Serbs or Albanians. Those that haven't are in fact putting pressure on the momentum for compromise - and might I add a quash on any unilateral acts of secession. Therefore I see nothing different in the statements coming out of Bratislava.
"We only need Spain, the rest are all irrelevant who will fall like dominoes." (Pejoni)
-- Then I strongly suggest you send Hysterical Skender, or whoever does his job, to Madrid and make with the niceness instead of thinking Spain will suddenly do a 180.
"The statement made by the Slovak representative is pretty clear.
(Daniel, 3 September 2010 12:29) "
Yes, and this is why I am surprised to find people here claiming that he said Slovakia was waiting for Serbia to recognize Kosovo. All he's saying is that his country will take Serbia's (ultimate, as-of-yet unrecognized) interests into account. And these are of course to improve its chances of entering the EU before the end of the millenium.
I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
Stefan, if no one mentioned Spain, it has to do with the fact that we don't care at all about Spain, not because they are bigger. They are even more bankrupt than others, and they have a nation which is not a nation as a matter of fact. Regarding Romanians, we really don't hate them, it has nothing to do with Romanians and Albanians, it has to do with your stupid government. It was your government that even during Milosevic allowed smuggler to break the embargo, and his army was being furnished with weapons, ammunitions, fuel, food, clothes etc through Romania, and all this while hundreds of thousands of civilians were being killed. So, please, save these argumentation on Moldoa, Timishoara etc. Your government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo
"Some Ballkanian fellows still believe that Slovakia and CO really support Serbia’s interests, however in time you’ll come to understand that all was a big game for their selfish interest to benefit their own countries"
(M, 3 September 2010 11:33)
It should be obvious for everyone that the decision of countries to recognize Kosovo or not is determined by their own interests, and not the love or hate for Serbs or Kosovo Albanians: Countries that refuse to recognize mostly have own minorities, and how stupid would they be to accept an unilaterally declared independent state? The major countries that recognized Kosovo mostly wanted to send back all the tolerated war refuguees to a "democratic and multiethnic Kosovo", most the tropical island states and african kingdoms have been bribed or expect other benefits.
The latest news Honduras recognises Kosovo independence!
Slovakia, Romania and other countries objecting Kosovo independence SO FAR are entitled to their own opionion. My point is that their objection is not about international law but their own interest and should not dare to block the will of the overwhelming majority of EU.
Romanians and Albanians in the past used to be very close,even Moldavian elite used to be of Albanian descent ... Romania and Moldavia are like Albania and Kosovo afterall ... anyawy, the anger of posters toward countries like Romania and Slovakia doe s not come because of any hate toward their people...it comes because of statements of their politicians ... spain does not show such support for serbia in their declarations, although Spainish campaigns have done the most damage considering the spanish influence in the world, spanish politicians don t talk about their 'fear' of losing an ally like Serbia. But when we hear slovakian and romanian politicians, they speak the same way our politicians used to talk in 1960s ...romanian premier comes in Tirana and arrogantly ask for aromanians to be a national minority, while aromanians in albania ALREADY were a national minority , ... i mean, do your politicians even consult the experts before going to another country ? Then, Basescu, not only talked about how Kosovo must not be independent here in Tirana, but also asked Tirana to open schools in aromanian instruction ... well, we would have opened aromanian schools since the early 90s if aromanians, which are orthodox, didn t declare themselves as greeks in order to get monthly payments from greeks ... if Tirana decides to open schools for aromanians, they themselves would actually be against such basic right because it would cut the money pouring down from athens ...but how would our president explain these things in a public conference?Romanian officials should have informed about their own nationals but I doubt Romania has experts close to their ministers and i doubt Romanian intellegence service is doing their job. The greeks in Albania, actually, are not harming Albania and Albaniansd by their ''if you are an orthodox-get 170euro per month-become greek'' policy, they are actually harming other minorities, such as aromanians, orthodox slavs and gypcies because even the votes of such minorities go to a party, which claims to protect the rights of all MINORITIES in Albania, but in fact, its only policy is converting as much of people to greeko- orthodoxy...of course, our politicians don t care about minorities as long as EU and UNESCO are silent, actually our politicans don t even care about majorities, if our politicans raised this issue, which they should do in order to protect aromanians from being assimilated, but if we dare to deal with this problem, greeks would bark in EU councils, halls and other international offices ... personally i feel bad that aromanians in albania, which in the past have always been by our side and strugled for Albania, are being taken advandage of by greeks, who not only are harming them politicaly, but also are transfoming them into artificial greeks.
"Do people honestly think countries are going to go forever without recognising Kosovo?"
===================
Oh Ian, do you think that countries are going to pump money into "Kosova" forever?
Which is easier, not recognising Kosovo or pumping good money after bad?
Who can keep this up for longer? Really, ask yourself.
To Ben and Mirel from Albania:
About Romania, Greece, Slovakia and Cyprus being "bankrupt", "scum" and not deserving respect, etc.
Next time you sing you Albanian national anthem, just remember: the tune was composed by the Romanian composer Ciprian Porumbescu! And your patriots up to 19th century enjoyed much freedom and liberty in my country... I suppose this is all in the pas, eh? Whatever.
Comments like yours, Ben and Mirel, are making difficult for us, Romanians, to even begin to understand you. Also, you make very easy for us to rationalize the refusal of Kosovo self-declare independence. Bear with me a little more: Romania had only two choices, 1) if we support Serbia over Kosovo separation, our EU allies will feel uncomfortable, and 2) if we support Kosovo, Serbs will feel betrayed. Now, please remember that Romanian did its share and contributed in stopping Milosevic and supporting NATO air campaign in 1999. But we were told that is intended to stop a criminal dictator from persecuting a minority, not to encourage that specific minority to become persecutors. (Please save any comments about how wonderful and democratic is Kosovo nowadays, I currently have three good friends serving in KFOR, I just spoke with one of them at the phone - by the way, congrats for the soccer game of yesterday night, your team did well in Romania, 1-1 is quite disappointing for us!)
Confronted with this dilemma, we decided that a good friend and neighbor - Serbia - should not be alienated just because people in leather chairs thousands of miles away decided we should. We have responsibilities for our own minority in Serbia, and we thought that they will take the brunt of a pro-Kosovo decision. Anyway, they are not doing very good in terms of rights and liberties, but this is to be settled between us and Serbia, in due time.
However, the way Albanians seem to think about Romania is confirming that our decision was correct. You control your tongue when is about Spain for not accepting your independence (because it's a big country and somehow wealthy?), but you treat Romania as the worst enemy (I got it, because we are scum...) for the same reason. No matter that what Romanians did for Albanians in the last centuries may be at least as important as what Spain did, if not more... You want to be understood, but you pay attention to our words as much as a little doggie to a butterfly: there was a guy posting here, a Romanian, couple months ago, who explained clearly that Romania cannot accept a precedent which may be used agains our sister-country Moldavia Republic, which is threatened by Russians with losing the separatist "Republic of Transdniestria"... But no, you guys keep it up with Transilvania, bla, bla, bla. Why, because you feel grateful towards Hungary? Have I mentioned that the party of Hungarian minority in Romania is still in government in Bucharest for the last almost 10 years? Or such a performance is a piece of cake for your "democratic" Kosovo, therefore deserves no attention? Yesterday 6 ministers out of 14 were changed in our Govt., but no the Magyar ones, although at least one of them, the Minister of Health, is quite a moron! Don't you think there may be something more than meets the eye? That things are not always supposed to be solved by the way of the Kalashnikov?
Next time when you feel like cursing us, save some energy for surfing the web and see what Romania is and does. You may learn a few useful tricks. Because despite being poor and undeveloped, we like to think we master the art of diplomacy&compromise. After all, look at us: we are entire and full as a country, in NATO and EU. And our soldiers are keeping the peace on your land, not the other way around. You may curse the president Basescu (I do the same, for internal political and economical reasons) but do not curse our people and its country, 'cause we were free and independent when you were just a villayet in the Ottoman Empire!
Stefan Grebu next time if you want to be taken seriously as someone applying logic you need to spare us veiled offensive words. It'd be as if we were telling you that when we defeated the turks for 25 straight years you were their slaves. Stuff like this is illogical, since after all, all of us where under their clutches for 500 years. Believe me, you're no better than the rest of us when it comes to Turks. They enslaved all of us for centuries.
Now that we've settled that. Lets speak more logically rather than under the effects of passion. There are people who will talk nonsense all the time; however answering nonsense with nonsense doesn't make you any more right. All I want to do is invite you to see the following just to see how boneheaded and wrong the moves of the Romanian state are. Albanians and Greeks have been traditional enemies for centuries now. Greece doesn't recognize Kosova either but they've taken an approach that is much different than Romania's. While they haven't recognized Kosova and don't plan to do so for a while they don't come across as more Serbs than the Serbs themselves. Meanwhile your leaders come out and make pompous declarations that outdo those of the Serbs. You can indeed not recognize and that is fine because that is your choice, however things start to stink when you have a Romanian leader speak every week against Kosova with more of a passion than the Serbs do. That is when things go downhill; and that is not conducive to good relationship between our two peoples. If you don't want to recognize that's fine but you need to quiet down a little bit; take Greece's approach. That is smart politics. What your boneheads do by being loudmouths is tie Kosova with Moldova's problems when they don't have to. It is a stupid policy to tie your problems with the fate of Kosova when you can simply state I wont recognize cuz its my choice and Kosova and our porblems are not the same and not tied anyway. Even the Russians say that Kosova and their problems are not the same. Even the Serbs do not tie Kosova with the problems they have in Sanxhak. They say Kosova is different. However you have a Romanian loudmouth take that loudspeaker every week proudly declaring that they won't recognize Kosova because Kosova and their problems are the same. That is simply foolish politics. Rather than not recognizing and being loud every week about how Kosova and your problems are the same they should be stating they don't recongize and these problems are not the same and remain quiet. Take themselves out of the limelight. That is smart politics, that is what Greece is doing. You should be taking a page out of their policy.
P.S Romania's team seems very week. Its a shadow of what it used to be 2-3 years ago. What happened?
Never is a big word that no country in the world has been able to keep it to its end! I assume Slovakia may also recognise Kosovo someday. Serbia might as well after Kosovo is partitioned and few towns are exchanged! Until then, Kosovo has to be happy with it´s new recognition from Honduras and 12 more to come from CARICOM next week.
"I do not know why this guy and his country (Slaovakis) is making himself so important by keeping himself in the news when his country sooner rather than later is going to recognise Kosova's independence! Do the inevitable already!
(Modest Mind, 3 September 2010 18:42) "
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
"You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble." (EA)
-- The "real" news is that Kosovo remains in diplomatic deadlock. You can cheer for an additional recognition while disregarding two more states that don't. The "real" news is the same as it was two days ago: Kosovo is still risking a frozen conflict with neither Belgrade nor Pristina any closer to achieving their objectives.
!The latest news Namibia and South Africa do not. The diplomatic ballet remains in cosmic balance."
(Mike, 4 September 2010 06:06)
Mike,
I know you are smarter than your previous comment. You should know what a news is/means. For example if a lady gives birth to a child it is a news. If a lady hasn't got a child it is not a news...) You are not happy with the REAL news and it is understandble.
"Slovakia,Romania,Greece or Cyprus.Hope they are going to be bankrupt soon.
(Mirel from Albania, 3 September 2010 15:59)
Technically they are all bankrupted Mirel."
Yes sure, and Albania is the most wealthy country in Europe, except for the indipindint dream state of Kosova, of course, which is even more prosperous than Albania!
Both Russia and Slovakia said that they want to wait and respect the advisory opinion of ICJ and will work to enforce the opinion of this "respectable" court. However now they have changed their mind. They don't think that the ICJ is as respectable as it used to be 2 months ago.
Please go easy on the guy - he's an honest man. The Slovaks appreciate that Yugoslavia stood up for them during the Russian invasion, they would gladly not have to vote against Serbia, and are clearly hoping that something will happen so that this is not necessary.
(Amer, 3 September 2010 19:43)
That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. However it was Albania that withdrew from Warsaw pact because of the invasion. The internal motives might have bee more complicated than this since the communist regime in Albania wouldn't even care for it's own people. Nevertheless this is a fact and Czechoslovakia and it's people enjoyed a profound respect within Albania for decades to come. The Prague Spring and the "Communism with human face" was a moment of hope and inspiration for half of Europe suffering under Russian occupation and it's sad that Slovakia today sides with it's former nemesis Russia for nostalgic reasons of Slavic "supremacy".
Why such bitter hatred from the usual posters towards those countries that do not recognize Kosovo? What is wrong with you people? You can't even offer any intelligent analyses. Is this part of the 'no compromise' politics then?
Do as we say, not as we do?
Even more disturbing the way those in their glass houses who look down their nose at the african countries. So many shameless people!
Don't any of these states have the freedom of choice and right to make their own sovereign decisions without being blackmailed, bullied or bought off?
In the last few weeks, there has been an influx of posters on the B92 boards who do nothing but publish spite and insults (i.e. quite a lot more than is usual). Are you lot bored or something?
I appreciate your effort to explain Albanian virulent accusations towards Romanians and my country. Also, for the history part, let's stop here, before more damage is done :) (Anyway, "slaves"? come on, you could do better... We all suffered from Turkish oppression in balkans, but the Romanian Principalities of Moldavia and Wallachia were vassals, not under direct occupation as everybody south of Danube; there was no Pashalic here, and even the rulers, when they were appointed by the Sultan directly, were either local boyars or Greeks from important families in Constantinopole, and always Christians. It may not be important for you, but it is for us.)
My reply is here:
Romanian politicians have no interest in talking about Kosovo. It is very visible that only the President and the FM are talking on this issue. This is because Kosovo issue doesn't exist on Romanian political agenda, not even when is about foreign relations. We are in such a deep economical crisis that not even a second 9/11 would draw attention in Bucharest... Personally, I think it's wrong, but to be honest, not even the issue of Moldavia Republic is present in the media these days, and they are important for us, as Kosovo Albanians are important for Albanians (and viceversa). However, neither our president or the FM are making statements out of the blue - these are just reactions to EU officials visiting Bucharest and trying to persuade us to recognize Kosovo. Probably in the last weeks, such occasions are more numerous. And maybe Albanian media is paying exagerate attention to what is said in Bucharest, because Kosovo is a very important issue in Tirana and Pristina. Yes, I agree that the retoric used by our officials could be a little (more) diplomatic; however, we are annoyed by all this Kosovo issue, as many Romanians discovered in february 2008 that we've been lied - the NATO war proved to be not only about stopping Milosevic from destroying Albanians in Kosovo, but also to create a new state in Western Balkans, and this we did not signed for (nothing personal with Albanians). Be assured that nobody is happy here to be on the same side with Russia, and opposed to 22 EU countries, but life is complicated and politics are even more complicated.
Second, nobody is tying Moldavia with Kosovo in Bucharest. No official has even put the two names in the same discourse, let alone phrase. Probably I was confused in my post. What I wanted to say is that recognizing Kosovo we may hurt Moldavia and expose them to Russia abuse through Transdniestr issue, but this is visible for anybody paying attention to intl. politics. As a side note, what pisses me off is that Russia will be the winner no matter what happens with Kosovo - if Kosovo gets a UN seat, then Moscow asks the same for its puppets like Transdniestr or Ossetia, and if Kosovo stays out of UN, then Moscow makes Serbia happy and gets a foothold in Balkans!
Last but not least, we Romanians are also saying always that Kosovo is a very different problem, not to be compared or used as an example for any other case. The problem is, when big countries like America or Russia will decide to use Kosovo as a precedent, who will stand up against them? And with what arguments?
Therefore, as I was saying, there is more than meets the eye. Rest assured, Romania will not remain the last country in EU to refuse Kosovo recognition. Our President said, last year, that if under pressure, we will not sabotage EU, but will write down that we did it "with reserves and for the sake of EU". The problem comes from Greece and Cyprus. As for Slovakia, they will make noise but will bend, if Spain does; Bratislava is just upset because regarding the reconciliation with Hungarians, they are still behind Romania, and also their country is smaller as compared with Hungary.
(Romanian soccer players of today are just a shadow of the old generation... But there is still hope, that they will learn from mistakes. God help!)
I have no idea what is happening with Aromanians in Albania, and I apologies for that. In fact, most of Romanians have no clue what is the situation of Vlachs living in Serbia, which is closer than Albania. But I credit your words to be true. Also, I agree that many Romanian diplomats are morons. However, it is clear that Aromanians did forgot the old saying, "beware of the Greeks when they bring gifts" :(
To:
Alb jew
"Your [Romanian] government has to beg pardon to Bosnians and Albanians first because they are collaborators in the massive murders, and then keep a position on the Independence of Kosovo".
Well, what can be answered to this? You are just confirming my words... Sad.
"That's not exactly true. Tito's Yugoslavia had already severed relations with Soviet Union by that time and it had nothing to lose by standing beside Czechoslovakia. "
You're right, of course - Tito's move was much less visible, publicly: the military changed its stance to complete neutrality, saying that if either Nato or the Warsaw Pact attacked Yugoslavia in any future war, Yugoslavia would automatically join the side of the other. Indicating officially it would join with Nato, even potentially, was seen as a big thing in some circles.
It may have been the personal-level support that the Slovaks still remember and are grateful for. I spent a summer in Czechoslovakia a couple of years after the invasion and went down to Yugoslavia for a week or so. My Slovak was pretty good at the time, and sometimes people mistook me for a Slovak (it never with a Slovak, for some reason...) - and they couldn't wait to tell me how much they admired the Czechs and Slovaks and how much they were against the Pact's move. They were invariably disappointed when I had to tell them that, no, unfortunately, I was just an American. But I carried their messages back and people in Bratislava were glad to hear they were not alone in the world. The general opinion is still obviously is that "the Serbs were with us then, and we should be with them now." Personally, I wish they'd check the details, but you have to admire their remembered gratitude - there's no that much of it in the world.
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