24

Monday, 23.08.2010.

10:45

Slovak FM on unilateral secessions

Slovakia's Foreign Minister Mikulaš Dzurinda said that his country is against recognizing Kosovo.

Izvor: Tanjug

Slovak FM on unilateral secessions IMAGE SOURCE
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24 Komentari

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Niko

pre 13 godina

Wasn't the creation of Czechoslovakia (and as a result the creation of the Slovak Republik 70 years later) an UDI from the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Did the Slovaks get the consent of Austro-Hungary to create their state? I don't think so!
Yes, gentlemen, Albanians in Kosovo lately did'nt do anything more what the Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and Romanians did to Austria - Hungary and Germany!
Yugoslavia (aka Greater Serbia) was a fake state and it deserved to get resolved.

pss

pre 13 godina

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)
(Top, 24 August 2010 09:15)
The ICTY was established by the UN, the irony is that you all claim that Kosovo can never be a state because Serbia's friend will block its admission to the UN. Serbia's "friend" is one of UNSC that approved the ICTY.
You all claim that Kosovo cannot separate from Serbia without UNSC approval, which is the same ones who set up the ICTY.
So basically it boils down to
ProSerbian --good and just
anything else--corrupt.

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?
(Mikael C, 24 August 2010 17:39) "

"Nothing to offer?" Oh, but that's where you're wrong. It's the demographics, again.

Remember, the world is in a recession now (Germany seems to be out of it, but it depends on exports ...). Anyway, he last thing countries need during periods of low growth or recession is more people - but wait until they start to grow again. The populations of European countries are either stagnant or declining - they're going to be needing more workers soon, and the hoped-for source of supply from Russia and the Ukraine has disappeared as even a theoretical possibility. Germany has already drawn up plans to allow temporary workers to enter from non-EU countries, and Albanians - with their knowledge of German - will be obvious candidates. Things are difficult now, but the world has never not come out of recession before. When it does, Kosovo will be able to afford to send it workers without worrying about draining its own economy of workers. Serbia, on the other hand, is already worrying about its "brain drain," as it trains doctors and engineers to work in Germany, leaving posts unfilled at home.

Mikael C

pre 13 godina

"Slovakia doesn't care about Serbia. Slovakia is worried about its large Hungarian minority and what they might do!"

ivan

And you thing Germany, the Uk and other european countries that recognized Kosovo actually cares about Kosovo? They just want to send criminal albanians back without albanians claiming persecution from Milosevic.
As soon as Germany, France and other countries recognized Kosovo independence they sent back thousands of criminal albanian immigrants. Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?

Top

pre 13 godina

"Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial [link] - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."
(Amer, 23 August 2010 20:03)

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)

johny

pre 13 godina

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

Ahh overlooking things. The point is that until ICJ opinion, the Slovaks along with the Spaniards and the Cypriots where causing a tantrum yelling about how Kosova is not a sui-generis case. Now he calls everyone crazy if they don't agree that Kosova is sui-generis and not equal to the Hungarians. Slovakia changed her tune very very fast on this part of the issue, along with Cyprus and Spain. That is a very fast change. So now even these people have to come out that Kosova's independence does not constitute a blue-print. Stupid diplomacy on their part when they could have simply maintained the position of sui-generis from the start and still not recognize necessarily. That is weak diplomacy.

As for 1244 Ron, read it again. Nowhere in there it states that a mutual agreement with Serbia is needed. Compare it with the Bosnian resolution where it specifically states that a mutal agreemet with Serbia is needed. This is is the difference, and that difference is huge. If you don't realize how huge it is then think of RS and then think of N. Mitrovica. 1244 only specifies the interim period in clear terms. Whatever happens after that is nebulous at best. The most you can claim is that the interim period is not over. Even that is strictly subjective. Other than that 1244 doesn't back what you claim. You project your wishes onto what you'd want 1244 to be; but that's another matter. After the interim period, 1244 does not specify anything. If you knew something about the circumstances that 1244 was written you would know that writing it in a manner that doesn't specify anything after the interim period was the only way to pass it. If anyone specified that Kosova would be independent after the interim period, Russia would block it. If they put that it would remain an autonomous province of Serbia after the interim period and for eternity then the US, UK and France would block it. If they specified that mutual agreement would have to be reached then Russia, US, France, UK would block it, and maybe China approve it. 1244 leaves the door open after the interim period for anything without specifically stating that; all they have to do is not state how things would look after the interim period and nobody in the UNSC comes defeated an none of their egoes and reputations are hurt. However they did specify that there would be an interim period, and the period after that for a final status.

icj1

pre 13 godina

"If Serbs now feel cheated, I can understand that," Dzurinda told Austrian daily Die Presse, recalling that UN SC Resolution 1244, that ended the 1999 war over the province, envisages only a substantial autonomy for Kosovo."

Well, the authority on this stuff is not Dzurinda but the ICJ and they thought differently on 22 July 2010.

roberto

pre 13 godina

Thanks, Amer, for the icty link. i can use some of it for a piece we're working on.

here is a (relatively) new link to the mass grave site at raska: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=379575&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21

2 especially interesting aspects: 1- there's a protected witness that has testified to the exact location and specs of the grave site itself(i suspected something like that)

and 2- even the serbian prosecutor admits they took the sample in the wrong place. duh. another holding pattern, as long as we (eulex) permit it.

thanks again.

roberto
frisco

abc123

pre 13 godina

It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

No, that's not clear at all. To the contrary, almost all Serbia supporters (Spain, Cyprus, Slovakia, etc...) have said Kosovo's case is not similar with theirs.

Even Serbia said that Sandzak's case is not similar to Kosovo.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=22&nav_id=69219

So we see proof everyday, above all from Serbia and its supporters, that Kosovo is not similar to other cases, so it's "sui generis".

As for the ICJ, it dealt with this when it said that the ruling was about the UDI of a specific entity (Kosovo's) on a specific date (17 Feb 2008). So, I agree that the ICJ ruling is a blueprint for any UDI declared on 17 Feb 2008 by any entity called Kosovo.

dht

pre 13 godina

1. Slovak FM:

Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".


2. dht:

One correction:
The Serbs never committed ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.
The Kosovo Albanians lied when accusing the Serbs of ethnic cleansing.
The result of these lies: NATO bombed Serbia and many civilians died.

The Slovak FM still believes in these lies.
Nevertheless, and despite Slovakia´s offering of air space to NATO, he could be considered as a friend.

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing?

(Zoran, 23 August 2010 13:11)"

Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial www.icty.org/x/cases/milutinovic/tjug/en/090226summary.pdf - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."

(One of the little ironies of life - the Milutinovic of "Milutinovic et al." was found innocent; it was the anonymous "et al." who were found guilty.)

Top

pre 13 godina

"This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note."
(Mark, 23 August 2010 16:10)

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation

doodah

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!
(Ron, 23 August 2010 12:31)
I agree that in 1999 Resolution 1244 was not created to form a new state, it was created to stop the killing and allow for the self government of the people of Kosovo. Final status to be determined by a political settlement. No where does it say mutually agreed, nor that Kosovo remains a Serbian province. It does not even emply that Serbia has to be in agreement with the settlement.
When is the last time you can point to either a UN or EU document which refers to Kosovo as a province?

Top

pre 13 godina

"... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place."
(miri, 23 August 2010 16:15)

You mean ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? Well, in a way, Kosovo Albanians are working on it - only in the opposite way as Milosevic tried. Bizarre, somehow...

miri

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place.

Mark

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

So the fix according to you is lets act like nothing happened.

@ B92
This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note.

Zoran

pre 13 godina

that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!

Nothing else to say!
(Top, 23 August 2010 11:29)
--
Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing? So why did NATO bomb Serbia? Because we didn't accept the Rambouillet "Agreement"? In fact, that wasn't even an agreement but rather an ultimatum that would allow NATO to occupy all of Serbia and also give ethnic Albanians independence.

The world will never reward terrorists and NATO.

Marius

pre 13 godina

@Pejoni:
Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.

Pejoni

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

How about that, at least Im happy he didnt forgot what Belgrade tried with.

Ron

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!

Top

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!


"But with the same devotion to the values and principles I now believe that the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo without Serbia's consent or consideration is unfair," said Dzurinda, whose country is one of five EU member-states that have not recognized the Kosovo Albanian UDI."

Right, again!

Nothing else to say!

Ron

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!

Pejoni

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

How about that, at least Im happy he didnt forgot what Belgrade tried with.

Top

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!


"But with the same devotion to the values and principles I now believe that the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo without Serbia's consent or consideration is unfair," said Dzurinda, whose country is one of five EU member-states that have not recognized the Kosovo Albanian UDI."

Right, again!

Nothing else to say!

Zoran

pre 13 godina

that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!

Nothing else to say!
(Top, 23 August 2010 11:29)
--
Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing? So why did NATO bomb Serbia? Because we didn't accept the Rambouillet "Agreement"? In fact, that wasn't even an agreement but rather an ultimatum that would allow NATO to occupy all of Serbia and also give ethnic Albanians independence.

The world will never reward terrorists and NATO.

Mark

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

So the fix according to you is lets act like nothing happened.

@ B92
This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note.

miri

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place.

Marius

pre 13 godina

@Pejoni:
Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.

doodah

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!
(Ron, 23 August 2010 12:31)
I agree that in 1999 Resolution 1244 was not created to form a new state, it was created to stop the killing and allow for the self government of the people of Kosovo. Final status to be determined by a political settlement. No where does it say mutually agreed, nor that Kosovo remains a Serbian province. It does not even emply that Serbia has to be in agreement with the settlement.
When is the last time you can point to either a UN or EU document which refers to Kosovo as a province?

Top

pre 13 godina

"... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place."
(miri, 23 August 2010 16:15)

You mean ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? Well, in a way, Kosovo Albanians are working on it - only in the opposite way as Milosevic tried. Bizarre, somehow...

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing?

(Zoran, 23 August 2010 13:11)"

Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial www.icty.org/x/cases/milutinovic/tjug/en/090226summary.pdf - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."

(One of the little ironies of life - the Milutinovic of "Milutinovic et al." was found innocent; it was the anonymous "et al." who were found guilty.)

Top

pre 13 godina

"This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note."
(Mark, 23 August 2010 16:10)

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation

Top

pre 13 godina

"Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial [link] - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."
(Amer, 23 August 2010 20:03)

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)

roberto

pre 13 godina

Thanks, Amer, for the icty link. i can use some of it for a piece we're working on.

here is a (relatively) new link to the mass grave site at raska: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=379575&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21

2 especially interesting aspects: 1- there's a protected witness that has testified to the exact location and specs of the grave site itself(i suspected something like that)

and 2- even the serbian prosecutor admits they took the sample in the wrong place. duh. another holding pattern, as long as we (eulex) permit it.

thanks again.

roberto
frisco

pss

pre 13 godina

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)
(Top, 24 August 2010 09:15)
The ICTY was established by the UN, the irony is that you all claim that Kosovo can never be a state because Serbia's friend will block its admission to the UN. Serbia's "friend" is one of UNSC that approved the ICTY.
You all claim that Kosovo cannot separate from Serbia without UNSC approval, which is the same ones who set up the ICTY.
So basically it boils down to
ProSerbian --good and just
anything else--corrupt.

johny

pre 13 godina

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

Ahh overlooking things. The point is that until ICJ opinion, the Slovaks along with the Spaniards and the Cypriots where causing a tantrum yelling about how Kosova is not a sui-generis case. Now he calls everyone crazy if they don't agree that Kosova is sui-generis and not equal to the Hungarians. Slovakia changed her tune very very fast on this part of the issue, along with Cyprus and Spain. That is a very fast change. So now even these people have to come out that Kosova's independence does not constitute a blue-print. Stupid diplomacy on their part when they could have simply maintained the position of sui-generis from the start and still not recognize necessarily. That is weak diplomacy.

As for 1244 Ron, read it again. Nowhere in there it states that a mutual agreement with Serbia is needed. Compare it with the Bosnian resolution where it specifically states that a mutal agreemet with Serbia is needed. This is is the difference, and that difference is huge. If you don't realize how huge it is then think of RS and then think of N. Mitrovica. 1244 only specifies the interim period in clear terms. Whatever happens after that is nebulous at best. The most you can claim is that the interim period is not over. Even that is strictly subjective. Other than that 1244 doesn't back what you claim. You project your wishes onto what you'd want 1244 to be; but that's another matter. After the interim period, 1244 does not specify anything. If you knew something about the circumstances that 1244 was written you would know that writing it in a manner that doesn't specify anything after the interim period was the only way to pass it. If anyone specified that Kosova would be independent after the interim period, Russia would block it. If they put that it would remain an autonomous province of Serbia after the interim period and for eternity then the US, UK and France would block it. If they specified that mutual agreement would have to be reached then Russia, US, France, UK would block it, and maybe China approve it. 1244 leaves the door open after the interim period for anything without specifically stating that; all they have to do is not state how things would look after the interim period and nobody in the UNSC comes defeated an none of their egoes and reputations are hurt. However they did specify that there would be an interim period, and the period after that for a final status.

Mikael C

pre 13 godina

"Slovakia doesn't care about Serbia. Slovakia is worried about its large Hungarian minority and what they might do!"

ivan

And you thing Germany, the Uk and other european countries that recognized Kosovo actually cares about Kosovo? They just want to send criminal albanians back without albanians claiming persecution from Milosevic.
As soon as Germany, France and other countries recognized Kosovo independence they sent back thousands of criminal albanian immigrants. Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?

dht

pre 13 godina

1. Slovak FM:

Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".


2. dht:

One correction:
The Serbs never committed ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.
The Kosovo Albanians lied when accusing the Serbs of ethnic cleansing.
The result of these lies: NATO bombed Serbia and many civilians died.

The Slovak FM still believes in these lies.
Nevertheless, and despite Slovakia´s offering of air space to NATO, he could be considered as a friend.

icj1

pre 13 godina

"If Serbs now feel cheated, I can understand that," Dzurinda told Austrian daily Die Presse, recalling that UN SC Resolution 1244, that ended the 1999 war over the province, envisages only a substantial autonomy for Kosovo."

Well, the authority on this stuff is not Dzurinda but the ICJ and they thought differently on 22 July 2010.

abc123

pre 13 godina

It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

No, that's not clear at all. To the contrary, almost all Serbia supporters (Spain, Cyprus, Slovakia, etc...) have said Kosovo's case is not similar with theirs.

Even Serbia said that Sandzak's case is not similar to Kosovo.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=22&nav_id=69219

So we see proof everyday, above all from Serbia and its supporters, that Kosovo is not similar to other cases, so it's "sui generis".

As for the ICJ, it dealt with this when it said that the ruling was about the UDI of a specific entity (Kosovo's) on a specific date (17 Feb 2008). So, I agree that the ICJ ruling is a blueprint for any UDI declared on 17 Feb 2008 by any entity called Kosovo.

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?
(Mikael C, 24 August 2010 17:39) "

"Nothing to offer?" Oh, but that's where you're wrong. It's the demographics, again.

Remember, the world is in a recession now (Germany seems to be out of it, but it depends on exports ...). Anyway, he last thing countries need during periods of low growth or recession is more people - but wait until they start to grow again. The populations of European countries are either stagnant or declining - they're going to be needing more workers soon, and the hoped-for source of supply from Russia and the Ukraine has disappeared as even a theoretical possibility. Germany has already drawn up plans to allow temporary workers to enter from non-EU countries, and Albanians - with their knowledge of German - will be obvious candidates. Things are difficult now, but the world has never not come out of recession before. When it does, Kosovo will be able to afford to send it workers without worrying about draining its own economy of workers. Serbia, on the other hand, is already worrying about its "brain drain," as it trains doctors and engineers to work in Germany, leaving posts unfilled at home.

Niko

pre 13 godina

Wasn't the creation of Czechoslovakia (and as a result the creation of the Slovak Republik 70 years later) an UDI from the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Did the Slovaks get the consent of Austro-Hungary to create their state? I don't think so!
Yes, gentlemen, Albanians in Kosovo lately did'nt do anything more what the Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and Romanians did to Austria - Hungary and Germany!
Yugoslavia (aka Greater Serbia) was a fake state and it deserved to get resolved.

Zoran

pre 13 godina

that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!

Nothing else to say!
(Top, 23 August 2010 11:29)
--
Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing? So why did NATO bomb Serbia? Because we didn't accept the Rambouillet "Agreement"? In fact, that wasn't even an agreement but rather an ultimatum that would allow NATO to occupy all of Serbia and also give ethnic Albanians independence.

The world will never reward terrorists and NATO.

Ron

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!

Top

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

Right!


"But with the same devotion to the values and principles I now believe that the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo without Serbia's consent or consideration is unfair," said Dzurinda, whose country is one of five EU member-states that have not recognized the Kosovo Albanian UDI."

Right, again!

Nothing else to say!

Marius

pre 13 godina

@Pejoni:
Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.

Pejoni

pre 13 godina

"Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".

How about that, at least Im happy he didnt forgot what Belgrade tried with.

doodah

pre 13 godina

Back in 1999 we all said in the West: this is to stop the killings not to create a new state!

We formalized this in 1244: Kosovo is a Serbian province. Unless there is a mutual agreed deal.

Well, there is not deal! So there is no indepedent Kosovo.

And the world should realize: saying yes to Kosovo is saying yes to any other UDI!

So please close this Box of Pandora!

Greetings from Western Europe!
(Ron, 23 August 2010 12:31)
I agree that in 1999 Resolution 1244 was not created to form a new state, it was created to stop the killing and allow for the self government of the people of Kosovo. Final status to be determined by a political settlement. No where does it say mutually agreed, nor that Kosovo remains a Serbian province. It does not even emply that Serbia has to be in agreement with the settlement.
When is the last time you can point to either a UN or EU document which refers to Kosovo as a province?

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Is that right Top? Do you realise that ethnic Albanians didn't start leaving Kosovo until *after* NATO started bombing?

(Zoran, 23 August 2010 13:11)"

Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial www.icty.org/x/cases/milutinovic/tjug/en/090226summary.pdf - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."

(One of the little ironies of life - the Milutinovic of "Milutinovic et al." was found innocent; it was the anonymous "et al." who were found guilty.)

Top

pre 13 godina

"... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place."
(miri, 23 August 2010 16:15)

You mean ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? Well, in a way, Kosovo Albanians are working on it - only in the opposite way as Milosevic tried. Bizarre, somehow...

roberto

pre 13 godina

Thanks, Amer, for the icty link. i can use some of it for a piece we're working on.

here is a (relatively) new link to the mass grave site at raska: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=379575&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21

2 especially interesting aspects: 1- there's a protected witness that has testified to the exact location and specs of the grave site itself(i suspected something like that)

and 2- even the serbian prosecutor admits they took the sample in the wrong place. duh. another holding pattern, as long as we (eulex) permit it.

thanks again.

roberto
frisco

Mark

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

So the fix according to you is lets act like nothing happened.

@ B92
This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note.

miri

pre 13 godina

Nobody should forget what Milosevic'regime did, all over Ex-Yugoslavia. On the other hand, one injustice cannot be repaired through another injustice.
(Marius, 23 August 2010 13:32)

... or first injustice cannot be justified by allowing what that injustice was trying to achieve in the first place.

johny

pre 13 godina

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

Ahh overlooking things. The point is that until ICJ opinion, the Slovaks along with the Spaniards and the Cypriots where causing a tantrum yelling about how Kosova is not a sui-generis case. Now he calls everyone crazy if they don't agree that Kosova is sui-generis and not equal to the Hungarians. Slovakia changed her tune very very fast on this part of the issue, along with Cyprus and Spain. That is a very fast change. So now even these people have to come out that Kosova's independence does not constitute a blue-print. Stupid diplomacy on their part when they could have simply maintained the position of sui-generis from the start and still not recognize necessarily. That is weak diplomacy.

As for 1244 Ron, read it again. Nowhere in there it states that a mutual agreement with Serbia is needed. Compare it with the Bosnian resolution where it specifically states that a mutal agreemet with Serbia is needed. This is is the difference, and that difference is huge. If you don't realize how huge it is then think of RS and then think of N. Mitrovica. 1244 only specifies the interim period in clear terms. Whatever happens after that is nebulous at best. The most you can claim is that the interim period is not over. Even that is strictly subjective. Other than that 1244 doesn't back what you claim. You project your wishes onto what you'd want 1244 to be; but that's another matter. After the interim period, 1244 does not specify anything. If you knew something about the circumstances that 1244 was written you would know that writing it in a manner that doesn't specify anything after the interim period was the only way to pass it. If anyone specified that Kosova would be independent after the interim period, Russia would block it. If they put that it would remain an autonomous province of Serbia after the interim period and for eternity then the US, UK and France would block it. If they specified that mutual agreement would have to be reached then Russia, US, France, UK would block it, and maybe China approve it. 1244 leaves the door open after the interim period for anything without specifically stating that; all they have to do is not state how things would look after the interim period and nobody in the UNSC comes defeated an none of their egoes and reputations are hurt. However they did specify that there would be an interim period, and the period after that for a final status.

Top

pre 13 godina

"This was an interview for "Presse" in Austria.Where is the part where he talks about Kosovo not being a precedent for the Hungarians in Slovakia? You know he called crazy whoever equals Slovakia with Serbia and Kosovo with the Hungarians. Jeremic take note."
(Mark, 23 August 2010 16:10)

Sure he has to say that. Should he have said instead: Look, my hungarian citizens, an UDI for any ethnic minority is not against international law, what are you waiting for? It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation

Top

pre 13 godina

"Not so - there were refugees in Europe and others in Albania weeks before the bombing started. The refugees during the time of the bombing were fleeing the campaign being implemented by the VJ and MUP and associated elements. See the judgement summary in the Milutinovic trial [link] - "The Chamber finds, therefore, that the NATO bombing was not the reason for the mass displacement of Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo."
(Amer, 23 August 2010 20:03)

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)

dht

pre 13 godina

1. Slovak FM:

Commenting on a statement that Slovakia supported NATO's 1999 attack on Serbia, the Slovak minister said that he "strongly supported offering Slovakia's air space to NATO because he was convinced at the time that Slobodan Milošević's ethnic cleansing was a very bad thing".


2. dht:

One correction:
The Serbs never committed ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.
The Kosovo Albanians lied when accusing the Serbs of ethnic cleansing.
The result of these lies: NATO bombed Serbia and many civilians died.

The Slovak FM still believes in these lies.
Nevertheless, and despite Slovakia´s offering of air space to NATO, he could be considered as a friend.

Amer

pre 13 godina

"Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?
(Mikael C, 24 August 2010 17:39) "

"Nothing to offer?" Oh, but that's where you're wrong. It's the demographics, again.

Remember, the world is in a recession now (Germany seems to be out of it, but it depends on exports ...). Anyway, he last thing countries need during periods of low growth or recession is more people - but wait until they start to grow again. The populations of European countries are either stagnant or declining - they're going to be needing more workers soon, and the hoped-for source of supply from Russia and the Ukraine has disappeared as even a theoretical possibility. Germany has already drawn up plans to allow temporary workers to enter from non-EU countries, and Albanians - with their knowledge of German - will be obvious candidates. Things are difficult now, but the world has never not come out of recession before. When it does, Kosovo will be able to afford to send it workers without worrying about draining its own economy of workers. Serbia, on the other hand, is already worrying about its "brain drain," as it trains doctors and engineers to work in Germany, leaving posts unfilled at home.

Mikael C

pre 13 godina

"Slovakia doesn't care about Serbia. Slovakia is worried about its large Hungarian minority and what they might do!"

ivan

And you thing Germany, the Uk and other european countries that recognized Kosovo actually cares about Kosovo? They just want to send criminal albanians back without albanians claiming persecution from Milosevic.
As soon as Germany, France and other countries recognized Kosovo independence they sent back thousands of criminal albanian immigrants. Kosovo has absolutely nothing good to offer so why in the world would anyone be interested in Kosovo for any other reason?

pss

pre 13 godina

(*irony on*)
Amer, how can you dare to link to a trial summary of the totally biased, anti-Serbian and unjust ICJ which is installed by THE WEST?
(*irony off*)
(Top, 24 August 2010 09:15)
The ICTY was established by the UN, the irony is that you all claim that Kosovo can never be a state because Serbia's friend will block its admission to the UN. Serbia's "friend" is one of UNSC that approved the ICTY.
You all claim that Kosovo cannot separate from Serbia without UNSC approval, which is the same ones who set up the ICTY.
So basically it boils down to
ProSerbian --good and just
anything else--corrupt.

icj1

pre 13 godina

"If Serbs now feel cheated, I can understand that," Dzurinda told Austrian daily Die Presse, recalling that UN SC Resolution 1244, that ended the 1999 war over the province, envisages only a substantial autonomy for Kosovo."

Well, the authority on this stuff is not Dzurinda but the ICJ and they thought differently on 22 July 2010.

abc123

pre 13 godina

It must be crytal clear that the UDI ruling will be a blueprint for other ethnic groups, too, especially because the ICJ didn't deal with the 'sui generis' argumentation
(Top, 23 August 2010 20:30)

No, that's not clear at all. To the contrary, almost all Serbia supporters (Spain, Cyprus, Slovakia, etc...) have said Kosovo's case is not similar with theirs.

Even Serbia said that Sandzak's case is not similar to Kosovo.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=22&nav_id=69219

So we see proof everyday, above all from Serbia and its supporters, that Kosovo is not similar to other cases, so it's "sui generis".

As for the ICJ, it dealt with this when it said that the ruling was about the UDI of a specific entity (Kosovo's) on a specific date (17 Feb 2008). So, I agree that the ICJ ruling is a blueprint for any UDI declared on 17 Feb 2008 by any entity called Kosovo.

Niko

pre 13 godina

Wasn't the creation of Czechoslovakia (and as a result the creation of the Slovak Republik 70 years later) an UDI from the Austro-Hungarian Empire?
Did the Slovaks get the consent of Austro-Hungary to create their state? I don't think so!
Yes, gentlemen, Albanians in Kosovo lately did'nt do anything more what the Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats and Romanians did to Austria - Hungary and Germany!
Yugoslavia (aka Greater Serbia) was a fake state and it deserved to get resolved.