"Serbian personnel can't guard monasteries"

Annex 2 point 6 says:
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;

- Marking/clearing minefields;

- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;

- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/3b00f27216.html

1244 does give Serbia the right to send its police and troops back into the province. maybe rexepi should read 1244 again - or get someone to read it to him!

I do not believe that the Kosovo Albanians are capable to manage an own state (including maintaining security) without having the European Union pumping every year millions of EURO into the Kosovo.

Serbian personel as from Serbia proper? Why, why when there are already Serbian officers from KP who guard these churches and monasteries together with their Albanian colleagues. This is nothing but scoring political points.

Redzepi likes to talk tough, standing behind the NATO war criminals who protect him. There will soon come a day when his protectors will be gone and bankrupt, and then we won't even ask him his opinion on who should guard the Serbian Holy sites.

"Kosovo has its own police which guards monasteries which are Kosovo's cultural heritage,"
Even if one agrees (I don’t) that Kosovo is a legitimate country the heritage spoken about is in fact Serbian Orthodox Christianity. It cannot be claimed by Kosovo (accept in as much it is geographically in Kosovo) in any way shape or form. Even if it is only Serb KPS detailed to guard them it does not make them a Government Heritage site any more than Canterbury Cathedral is owned by the UK Government it is owed by the Church of England. This really is a jumped up Kosovo Government trying to hijack some culture which they as Albanians do not and never will have.

1244? Well, 1244 states that both sides need to find a MUTUAL agreed deal. An UDI is not really mutally agreed on I would say...

RE:

"The UN Security Council Resolution 1244 does not say that Serbia has the right to send its police to Kosovo," he further asserted.


Annex 2, Number 6

After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;
Marking/clearing minefields;
Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
Maintaining a presence at key border crossings.

Of course it means police, you can't man a custom post without arms. Given that over 100 Serbian monasteries have been burned to the ground along with gravesites, an armed security presence is necessary.

Thank you Joachim for the link. I'm sure a minor issue like this will be worked out in the inevitable compromise between Belgrade and Pristina. As far as Pristina is concerned, it really shouldn't matter who guards Serbian monuments since KFOR has been doing it since 1999. Even if it comes down to Serbs from Kosovo guarding them (and I can't think of anyone better), it's a sign Serbs are protecting their own heritage.

"which are Kosovo's cultural heritage."

Sure it is! That's why albanians have burned down hundreds of churches and monasteries in Kosovo. As immigrants to Kosovo albanians don't have any cultural heritage there.

If it is Kosovo's cultural heritage can somebody explain to me why it is that 'Kosovan's' vandalise and destroy it? Very odd. But then of course there is no such thing as a Kosovan. Kosovo is a Serbian word for a geographical region. Every town, village, river, and mountain has, or should I say had, a Serbian name. What happened to the Serbian population in Kosovo, ie the removal of their people and heritage, is genocide pure and simple. Yes I know it's a much abused word these days but in this context, it fits perfectly.

1.
dht:
"I do not believe that the Kosovo Albanians are capable to manage an own state (including maintaining security) without having the European Union pumping every year millions of EURO into the Kosovo.
(dht, 16 August 2010 12:45)"


2.
Pejoni:
"Then you are wrong, Kosovo today functions without any foreign AID beside military protection. Kosovo recive the same amount of AID from US, EU, IMF, WB and others same as all her neighbors. Actually since -99 Kosovo has recived less then 4 billion euro's in AID for a period of decade (10 years) compare to Greece who recive 6 billion euro yearly. Check your facts next time.
(Pejoni, 16 August 2010 15:51)"

3.
dht´s reply:

No, you should check the facts.

In addition, some weeks ago I´ve discussed the issue of survival capability of the structure "Kosovo-State" with a KFOR-officer returning from Kosovo.
And he told me that the current structure would not function without KFOR maintaining the infrastructure.

Further, he told me that the structure "Kosovo-State" is nothing but nepotism.

Many EU-states made a big mistake when acknowledging a structure that cannot survive as a normal state: They planted the roots of a future pariah state located in Europe.

Kosova USA - "No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago."

I nearly split my sides laughing at this comment. Either you are very naive or stupid! Ask yourself this question. If 1244 isn't valid and your so called president, prime minister and every Albanian in Kosovo calls for the UN to leave, then why don't the UN leave as requested. You are after all a "sovereign nation" according to your own propaganda.

I know it's hard for you to swallow (so you dream some fantasy) but you KNOW and I know that the UN are in charge in Kosovo because Kosovo is still a province of Serbia. If that WASN'T the case then you would legitimately be able to ask the UN to leave. The fact that you can't do that says how in control you are. Kosovo is nothing more that a puppet povince controlled by the US. You have to do as your masters say - some independence! Even better is that you have to obey the UN where China and Russia get a say. That's why you can't do as you please in Kosovo. If you haven't put all the dots together by now then you really are stupid and my condolences to your parents.

"Kosovo has its own police which guards monasteries which are Kosovo's cultural heritage," he told Kosovska Mitrovica radio Contact Plus, in reference to the Serbian Orthodox monasteries.

Ah, yes, "Kosovo's cultural heritage". Good joke!

"No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago." (Kosova-USA)

-- If that were the case, Hysterical Skender wouldn't be making speeches calling for the UN to "replace" it

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=04&nav_id=68875

(dht, 16 August 2010 12:45)

Then you are wrong, Kosovo today functions without any foreign AID beside military protection. Kosovo recive the same amount of AID from US, EU, IMF, WB and others same as all her neighbors. Actually since -99 Kosovo has recived less then 4 billion euro's in AID for a period of decade (10 years) compare to Greece who recive 6 billion euro yearly. Check your facts next time.

Relax Alabanians we'll continue to visit you sans uniforms :) relax again I'm just kiddin. Anyway we're just upping the ante that's all. That's worth a bit. After all 1244 is in force, no? Permanent member of Security council can say, maybe shout: respect all of it now. Or maybe we'll have new resolution? Which is more probable to happen, friends? Hmmm.

and dacic is going to the moon soon, to protect serb heritage.

come on get real.

regards

RE; Mutual Agreed Solution

Annex 2, Point 8

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions.

Actually, 1244 says that kosovo's final status will be determined at some future date but did not specify how and when, so the status issue is ALWAYS undecided until there is mutual agreement or the us gives up (like it will soon in Iraq and Afghanistan).
Serbia should call the GA's attention to HATO's violation of 1244 concerning the return of the Serbian police.

1244 does give Serbia the right to send its police and troops back into the province. maybe rexepi should read 1244 again - or get someone to read it to him!
(Goran V, 16 August 2010 13:04)

No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago.

However, you are overlooking the real reason why this was never implemented. Simple fact is, the re-entry of any number of Serbian troops, after what they had done in 1999 to the Albanians, would have been grist in the mill of the most anti-Serb and most vengeful among the Albanians, with fresh memories of their massacred relatives.

(DimTuc, 16 August 2010 18:51)

So, in contrary to UN 1244 where the KLA was to be disarmed, they are allowed into Kosovo and to fully cleanse Serbs from Drenica, Pec, Prizren, and Pristina under the watchful eye of KFOR?

This is not "re-entry of Serbian troops" but "Serbian personnel" if you read the text carefully.

After what was done to the Serbs from 1946-1999 by the Albanian extremists, UN resolution 1244 was supposed to provide protection, instead the international community is guilty of not abiding to international agreements and allowing anarchy and chaos above the rule of law.

Even Tito had some rule of law throughout the former Yugoslavia which is non-existant in Kosovo.

"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:
(Joachim, 16 August 2010 12:41)
you are missing the understanding of a key word in here 'an agreed number'...right now that agreed number is zero, nada, zip. and it will remain that way.
The way I am understanding the serbian gov't is this: they are saying they do not trust the serbian citizens of kosovo to guard these monuments so they want to send their own....?

Serbs cannont guard Serbs nor can they guard Serbian Holy sites for the simple fact that albanians want to demonstrate their love and appreciation for Serbs themselves.

What better way to demonstrate that love than by this act of protection?

Serbs need to disregards the murder anniversay of those two boys swimming in the river defenselessly, the previous 100 churches burned since 1999, graves desecrated, buses blown up, grenades thrown into homes, and the continued expulsion of Serbs from Kosovo...come on...albanians love SERBS..isn't it obvious?

Redzepi said this was "only wishful thinking of some individuals".

Absolutely right, nothing but wishful thinking.

"Personel", huh? Why you don`t call the baby by it`s name? Why you don`t say that you want to send troops into Kosovo? Wouldn`t be so opportune when speaking of "peaceful solution", right?

Again, one of those (failed) threats. Dream on..

Bajram Redzepi:"Kosovo has its own police which guards Monasteries which are Kosovo's
cultural heritage"Let me clear up some things here before you get more confused Mr.Redzepi.Serbian Orthodox Churches and Monasteries located on Serbia's sovereign Territory Kosovo and Metohija are Serbian heritage.They are not for sale.Maybe some day, God willing,you and your people will reach levels of maturity and civility to respect those institutions and
live in peace.

'1244? Well, 1244 states that both sides need to find a MUTUAL agreed deal. An UDI is not really mutally agreed on I would say...
(Ron, 16 August 2010 15:36) '

I just checked - there's nothing in 1244 about a "mutual agreed" solution. You may have the underlying Rambouillet Accords in mind? Nothing there, either - "3. Three years after the entry into force of this Agreement, an international meeting shall be convened to determine a mechanism for a final settlement for Kosovo, on the basis of the will of the people, opinions of relevant authorities, each Party's efforts regarding the implementation of this Agreement, and the Helsinki Final Act, and to undertake a comprehensive assessment of the implementation of this Agreement and to consider proposals by any Party for additional measures."

(The Helsinki Final Act calls for both respect for human rights (pushed by the West) and respect for existing borders (Soviets). The Soviets wanted it to ensure that Germany would remain divided; dissidents used it to, ultimately, reunite it. We see which of the two standards prevailed.)

So, what we have now is a settlement based on "the will of the people." Nowhere is it said that Serbia has to be happy with it.

Yes 1244 does say that an agreed number of Serbian personnel can return to do a number of things such as guard the churches.

However, you are overlooking the real reason why this was never implemented. Simple fact is, the re-entry of any number of Serbian troops, after what they had done in 1999 to the Albanians, would have been grist in the mill of the most anti-Serb and most vengeful among the Albanians, with fresh memories of their massacred relatives. The revenge was bad (and indiscriminate)enough as it was, and as posters here know I always vigorously condemn it; however the idea that the presence of any Serbian troops would have made that better rather than a lot worse is naive in the extreme. In fact the real issue would have been "who will protect the protectors" if the Serb army had come back to "protect" local Serbs or churches.

That said, few would deny that the job done by Albanians and internationals has been pretty shabby, but things are far far better than the days of 2004, long ago. It is local Serb police protecting Gracanica for god's sake; how anyone can think that the re-entry of Serbian troops could in any way be better, rather than an extraordinary provocation, is beyond me.

If Kosovo is Serbia then why did the serbian army kill the kosovar people and chased them to other countrys ??

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.
(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)

Just what the hell is a "Kosovar?" You are an Albanian, Serb, Gorani, or whatnot.

(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)

Demi there were some paramilitary units whose mental fitness was distorted by years in the feild, ask some US vets in Vietnam and now in Afghanistan still that does not excuse their actions or bring back the dead on either side. Without trying to sound condescending,
what about all the blankets food and medicine sent down by Serb officials to look after Albanians stranded during the Nato bombing, remember all reports by UN and official bodies say Albanians left after the begining of the bombing campaign. There are peices to this puzzle deliberately left out for you know what reasons.
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/albanian-interviews.htm

Serbia agrees that the interim period is over. 1244 did not give such power to Serbia. Such a thing is not spelled out in 1244.
(johny, 16 August 2010 22:11)

UN Resolution 1244 has not been superceded and as such, remains in force. The so called plan by Ahtisarri was never passed by the UN security council or UN general assembly, it is a European plan that was rejected.

If you read the UN resolution 1244 carefully, it plainly states "negotiation", not "subjagation" and if you read the entire text of UN 1244, it does essentially provide for substantial autonomy but independance is never implied in the document.

It will be interesting to see at the UN General Assembly what will happen in the fall. UN resolution 1244 needs to be replaced and passed by the both the General Assembly and UN security council or status quo remains.

Demi - you just make it so easy. The reason why Serb forces attacked albanians? Because they were/are terrorists. And before you start screaming and crying that they were "freedom fighters", why did your new allies, the US and EU classify UCK and KLA as terrorist organisations? They only took them off the list when Kosovo became important in their geopolitics.

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.
(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)
===================

Demi, if we are supposed to trust you after only six year sof "peace" which is debatable, then why won't you trust us after more years of peace? Fighting stopped a lot earlier than 2004 and yet you keep saying how you will never trust us again.
Well, my friend, we will never trust you again because you attacked and destroyed in peaceful times unlike Serbia sending her military down to Kosovo to calm murdering Albanians.

Besides serious risks for life and health of Serbs, Roma, etc. living in Kosovo, and for Serbian churches and monasteries another important issue is the drug export from "Kosova":

The heroin abuse among the Serbian youth has increased, because "Kosova" has become the European top drug trader.

Many EU-states made a big mistake when acknowledging a structure - "Kosova" - that cannot survive as a normal state:

They planted the roots of a future pariah state located in Europe.

Serbia should send military personnel or police officers in plain clothes with secret fire arms to Kosovo to guard the churches, monasteries, and monuments against destruction and harm, in case the Kosovo Police do nothing against attacking Albanians. If the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo will not grant visas nor passports to these Serbian guardians; realize that there are other ways to enter Kosovo, in regards to those who would willing do as such, which smugglers are very well aware of. If the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo tries to arrest those uncover Serbs who use fire arms to protect Serbian churches, monasteries, and monuments in Kosovo; the world body of nations can demand that a major human rights violation has occurred in Kosovo and Kosovo's independence status must be terminated as punishment. Serbia also is to enter a charge against the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo and a charge against the Kosovo Police of Genocide toward Serbian churches, monasteries, monuments, Genocide of historical structures, Genocide of Christianity, and Serbian culture. If attacking Albanian Muslims get shot while trying to destroy a church, they won't try to use that tatic anymore. Some times, it seems that the Serbians must be martyrs to defend their property and maybe the answer is for Serbia to produce religious martyrs to deal with attackers against churches and monasteries. If there were Christian martyrs willing to do whatever it takes to protect churches and monasteries, these Christian martyrs can have comfort from their belief that they will be rewarded with eternal Paradise in defending their churches and monasteries against the infidels.

That's a good imagination you got there. If you mean al those wild deep south-style stories of vicious Albanians attcking good serbs etc, it is mostly a lot of nonsense. For most of that period you noted, Serbian forces were in absolute conrol of Kosovo (1945-74, 1989-99) and severely repressed the Albanians; even in the period after 1974, this was cut short with the severe repression after 1981, when tens of thousands of Albanians were imprisoned on the flimsiest of charges. Actually, some 75% of political prisoners in Yugoslavia in the 1980s were Albanians, and that was BEFORE 1989. Check Amnesty International. There were horror stories about Albanians raping good Serb women, like tghe ones about US blacks raping good white women, but the actual criminal record shows about one such rape in the 1980s, with overall rape statistics in Kosovo lower than in Serbia, and nearly all rapes being by Albanian men of Albanian women. Of course serbs escaped the poverty of Kosovo and went to get better jobs in northern serbia and Vojvodina, and Albanians had more kids, that was the so-called "ethnic cleansing" you pretend about.
(DimTuc, 17 August 2010 10:36)

Get your story straight, it was the Albanian communists who were pro Yugoslav in control of Kosovo.

Serbians left Kosovo under intense pressure from the Albanian majority as well as Economic circumstances.

If its imaginary, maybe you can explain why the current Serbian population in Kosovo is barely 4% when it was still close to 50% after WWII and that is after the Nazi control.

Tito and the Yugoslav government during the 1970's and 1980's ignored the plight of the Serbian minority in Kosovo. I can refer you to numerous documented evidence of the tacit ethnic cleansing of Serbs which accelerated between 1974-1989 coinciding with the substantial autonomy that was given to the Albanians in Kosovo in the name of brotherhood and unity.

Since 11 years have elapsed without Serbia wishing to send in personnel, I doubt you could muster support for it now, and if you do all you have to do is get all 5 veto wielding members to agree.
(pss, 16 August 2010 21:01)

On the contrary, they all have agreed on 1244, for it to change all 5 have to abolish it. On your other points, I agree and don't fully understand why they have not gone in yet particully when Bajram Redzepi has just invited them to do so. A change of leadership should fix that problem up. There definately is a problem with this Govt's attitude with Kosovo.
It's like they are deliberately trying to lose.

Annex 2 point 6 says:
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;

- Marking/clearing minefields;

- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;

- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

[link]
(Joachim, 16 August 2010 12:41)

That's all fine and dandy but there's some points you're skipping.

1. Agreed number. What is this agreed number specifically? Also agreed with who? Is this agreed number with KFOR or with Kosova Albanians?

2. Yugoslav and Serbian personnel? What exactly constitutes a Yugoslav. Since this word has had different meaning throughout the years then could a Yugoslav be a Albanian, a Croatian, a Slovenian?

3. Serbian personnel? What exactly should we understand from the words Serb personnel. Could this personnel be Kosova Serbs; or would they have to be Serbs from Serbia proper. Why one or the other?

4. The very important words in there are agreed number. Since there is no agreed number either with KFOR or the Albanians then that means there is no permission. Hence that number is zero as long as there is no agreed number, because the number zero means there is no permission because the lack of agreement.


Also those who mention 1244 and the words "MUTUAL agreement" can someone here please provide where in 1244 the words MUTUAL agreement appear together. I have yet to find them. If the words MUTUAL agreement do not appear together then we can infer and interpret agreement as being an agreement between Kosova and others, that are not necessarily Serbia. The ICJ declared that independence was a foreseen solution in 1244 hence a declaration of independence did not violate 1244. Even the ICJ backs our interpretation of 1244.

Annex 2, Point 8

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions.
(Jugoslavija, 16 August 2010 19:29)

...And your point is? Where in there do you see "Mutual agreement for the final status"? Do you see that spelled out? I don't. I only see what you pasted, apply to the interim period. That is indeed spelled out. There's nothing there about a "mutual agreement" for a final status. It only states that negotiation for a settlement should not disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions. It doesn't spell out if this settlement should be "mutually agreed". It doesn't spell out that the final settlement should guarantee Jugoslavia's territorial integrity; and it doesn't spell out that if Serbia does not agree during the negotiation process then the interim period is not over or that it continues in perpetuity until Serbia agrees. Nothing of that sort is spelled out when it comes to the final solution. Everything of that sort is spelled out when it comes to the interim period. Also notice the words "interim political framework agreement". That is exactly what we had until the declaration of independence; an interim political framework agreement that established self-government for Kosova taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. We agree on that?
Now that we established that you claim that the interim agreement is not over. We claim the interim agreement is over. 1244 does not provide anything and or any deadlines or method that establishes when the interim period or agreement is over. There is nothing that spells that out on 1244. The UN secretary general however gave powers to his representative to decide when the interim agreement was over. Ahtisari decided that it was over. We agreed and declared our independnece. We only respected the UN secretary general and his decision. Thus following UN secretary's general representative and the fact that he deemed the interim period was over and since the Rambouillet accords foresaw independence of Kosova as a final result we took that route. Simple. You can keep claiming the interim period isn't over while we can keep claiming that UN Secretary delegated the power to decide when such period is over to Ahtisari and he decided it was over. Whether or not you agree with that; that's a different matter. We are just respecting UN secretary's decision( he made through his representative). So you can copy and paste anything you want. That doesn't make your claim more valid than ours. You might want to claim that the interim period continues in perpetuity and eternity, while we claim that UN secretary general decided that that period was over. The fact that you do not agree with that does not by any means mean that such an interim period will continue until you agree its over; nowhere in 1244 it is specifically stated that the interim period ends when Serbia agrees that the interim period is over. 1244 did not give such power to Serbia. Such a thing is not spelled out in 1244.

On the contrary, they all have agreed on 1244, for it to change all 5 have to abolish it. On your other points, I agree and don't fully understand why they have not gone in yet particully when Bajram Redzepi has just invited them to do so. A change of leadership should fix that problem up. There definately is a problem with this Govt's attitude with Kosovo.
It's like they are deliberately trying to lose.
(Dan, 17 August 2010 12:13)
I did not clarify myself, my point is that it is very doubtful at this time Kfor would agree to "any" Serbian police in Kosovo due to the fact it would cause a rise in tensions. And Serbia must get agreement from Kfor to send anyone. In order to override Kfor on this matter would take an agreement of all 5 veto wielding nations, which you know as well as I that would never happen.

Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands)

Now Pss,
Supervision means the act of watching over the work or tasks of another who may lack full knowledge of the concept at hand. Supervision does not mean control of another but guidance in a work, professional or personal context.

Sorry about the cut+paste but thought it was easier.

Now Pss,
Supervision means the act of watching over the work or tasks of another who may lack full knowledge of the concept at hand. Supervision does not mean control of another but guidance in a work, professional or personal context.

Sorry about the cut+paste but thought it was easier.
(Dan, 17 August 2010 17:02)
Should you have a job, try telling your supervisor at work he has no control over whether you stay or can be terminated, and then come back with a definition for Supervision during your term of unemployment.

Serbia should call the GA's attention to HATO's violation of 1244 concerning the return of the Serbian police.
(JohnBoy, 16 August 2010 18:54)
I think you would have a hard time proving any violation of 1244 by NATO little on your version called HATO.
1. To date Serbia has never made an official request to send anyone in, only talk from posters here and nationalists not in control.
2. There is no directive as to how many "personnel" has to be allowed other than the maximum of less than 1000.
Finally
"Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands);"
The "Serbian" personnell would be supervised by Kfor and not Belgrade.
Since 11 years have elapsed without Serbia wishing to send in personnel, I doubt you could muster support for it now, and if you do all you have to do is get all 5 veto wielding members to agree.

"So, in contrary to UN 1244 where the KLA was to be disarmed, they are allowed into Kosovo and to fully cleanse Serbs from Drenica, Pec, Prizren, and Pristina under the watchful eye of KFOR?"

The KLA was disarmed by KFOR. Unfortunately there was not a lot anyone could do about a lot of people with guns taking collective revenge, especially in the first months after June 99 (and briefly in March 2004). It was certainly appalling (as all such actions are elsewhere in the world and in history) but it was a bit much to expect NATO to be everywhere at the same time. I agree they could have done a much better job (and I'm no defender of NATO in general), but it is simply dishonest to pretend they deliberately allowed violence against Serbs. Many times NATO troops protected Serbs and disarmed Albanians. The overall fault for the anti-Serb atmosphere - mostly paid for by innocent Serbs who stayed behind while war criminals fled ahead of everyone - must be accepted by those who creatd it - the serbian regime and military leadership at the time.

"After what was done to the Serbs from 1946-1999 by the Albanian extremists, UN resolution 1244 was supposed to provide protection"

That's a good imagination you got there. If you mean al those wild deep south-style stories of vicious Albanians attcking good serbs etc, it is mostly a lot of nonsense. For most of that period you noted, Serbian forces were in absolute conrol of Kosovo (1945-74, 1989-99) and severely repressed the Albanians; even in the period after 1974, this was cut short with the severe repression after 1981, when tens of thousands of Albanians were imprisoned on the flimsiest of charges. Actually, some 75% of political prisoners in Yugoslavia in the 1980s were Albanians, and that was BEFORE 1989. Check Amnesty International. There were horror stories about Albanians raping good Serb women, like tghe ones about US blacks raping good white women, but the actual criminal record shows about one such rape in the 1980s, with overall rape statistics in Kosovo lower than in Serbia, and nearly all rapes being by Albanian men of Albanian women. Of course serbs escaped the poverty of Kosovo and went to get better jobs in northern serbia and Vojvodina, and Albanians had more kids, that was the so-called "ethnic cleansing" you pretend about.

Should you have a job, try telling your supervisor at work he has no control over whether you stay or can be terminated, and then come back with a definition for Supervision during your term of unemployment.
(pss, 17 August 2010 23:26)
Supervisors don't sack managers do, what I'm saying is a manager(security council) mandated my job and tasked a supervisor to ensure I conduct myself under that mandate(hundreds not thousands), the supervisor cannot overide a manager's decision and tell me i'm not hired. The supervisor can recommend not to hire me but that means going back to management(sec council) to change it's decision. Just when I thought bureaucracy was a bad thing, it sneaks up and bites me on the posterior.

I notice you copied your definition from Wikipedia which is a great source of information but cannot be construed as any type of authoritative source due to the fact that it is readil changed by input from readers.
If you go to dictionary.com you will gethe following definition of Supervise
–verb (used with object), -vised, -vis·ing.
to oversee (a process, work, workers, etc.) during execution or performance;
synonyms: manage, direct, control, guide.
Pretty much sums up the fact that any Serbian personnel would be under the direct supervision, management, direction, control and guidance of Kfor.
(pss, 18 August 2010 03:33)

My point all along, Unmik as a supervisor is tasked to implement the UNSC planning decision and not to refuse or disagree with that decision. Unmik needs to be afforded a revised, ammended or new superceding directive from the UNSC(which again I remind you requires the votes of all five members) to change that. Unmik in it's role will oversee/guide/control that Serbian security forces are following the UNSC directive as laid out in 1244 and it's annex's, unlike as you had posted earlier, that Unmik has the power to veto or ammend it's mandate (the sec council resolution), by refusing to allow Serbs sec forces in, on grounds not stipulated in the annex. Unmik cannot refuse Serbia's request to send it's security forces to guard patramonial sites etc so long as it fulfills the obligations/pre-requisites set out by the UNSC ie no more than 1999 personal (hundreds not thousands) etc and not because Unmik believes it could incite some Albanians. Unmik can advise Serb sec forces to approach certain areas at certain intervals, but ultimately cannot "control" them to do that because it only has a supervisory role.

(Dan, 18 August 2010 17:10)
I am saying at this point in time (11 years post) Kfor which is given the security duties for Kosovo, UNMIK is the Civilian Presence can ignore 1244.
But "if" and that is a big IF Serbia were to want to send in personnel then they would have to negotiate the number and whether they were to be armed (Kfor's perrogative) This could take several several years to finalize.
1244set the stage but left the implementation up to those in charge. Serbian personnel entering without said agreeement would be in direct violation and could be expelled.

I am saying at this point in time (11 years post) Kfor which is given the security duties for Kosovo, UNMIK is the Civilian Presence can ignore 1244.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)

Erm negative Pss,

CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR PROVISIONAL SELF-GOVERNMENT
UNMIK/REG/2001/9 - 15 May 2001
Determining that, within the limits defined by UNSCR 1244(1999), responsibilities will be transferred to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government....... http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm
-----------------------
But "if" and that is a big IF Serbia were to want to send in personnel then they would have to negotiate the number and whether they were to be armed (Kfor's perrogative) This could take several several years to finalize.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)
Disagree on them being unarmed, my bet would be the same spec afforded to the the KSF, ie a lightly armed force in possession of no heavy weapons, such as tanks, heavy artillery or offensive air capability.
On the time frame, "years" unlikely, Đinđić also stopped "IF" when he sent his requests in January 2003.
Post 11 years not Serbia's fault or incompetence.
On another technical issue, the KSF capped to 2500 and 800 reservists took years because they needed to be trained from scratch, the competency level of Serb security forces is ready to roll out tommorow. Men who have trained with the Ohio guard would be ideal and offer no excuses or inhibitions on the part of KFOR or Unmik. Even I am amazed that there a use was found for this programme.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=912

---------------------
1244set the stage but left the implementation up to those in charge. Serbian personnel entering without said agreeement would be in direct violation and could be expelled.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)

Then I guess Unmik and Serbia should start getting rapidly involved as the footnote states.

''If it is Kosovo's cultural heritage can somebody explain to me why it is that 'Kosovan's' vandalise and destroy it? Very odd.''


If Kosovo is Serbia then why did the serbian army kill the kosovar people and chased them to other countrys ??

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.

Time for the monks and priests of the Serbian churches and Serbian monasteries to learn and practice Oriental martial arts.
In China, for centuries, there were Buddhist temples and Buddhist monasteries where the monks and priests practiced martial arts. The clergy learned hand and foot fighting as well as being trained in various weapons including spears, swords, wooden staffs, and metal "throwing stars". The purpose of the martial arts was for the monks and priests to be able to protect themselves and to protect their temples and monasteries.
The most famous martial arts Buddhist temple in China is the Shaolin Temple at Sung Shan near Zhengzhou City, Henan Providence which was once destroyed by an army by the warlord Shi Yousan in 1928, but in much later years became rebuilt and restaffed with monks and priests.
There were other, lesser known Shaolin Temples which practiced martial arts in China.
In South Korea, there is a Buddhist monastery, high in the mountains, inwhich the monks and priests practice martial arts, even today.

(Dan, 17 August 2010 17:02)
I notice you copied your definition from Wikipedia which is a great source of information but cannot be construed as any type of authoritative source due to the fact that it is readil changed by input from readers.
If you go to dictionary.com you will gethe following definition of Supervise
–verb (used with object), -vised, -vis·ing.
to oversee (a process, work, workers, etc.) during execution or performance;
synonyms: manage, direct, control, guide.
Pretty much sums up the fact that any Serbian personnel would be under the direct supervision, management, direction, control and guidance of Kfor.

Then I guess Unmik and Serbia should start getting rapidly involved as the footnote states.
(Dan, 19 August 2010 18:09)
"Living the dream" aren't you?
Maybe you should have read the link---*8.2 The SRSG will coordinate closely with the International Security Presence (Kfor).Coordinating with does not imply any authority over.

Also 1244 directly spells out the responsibilities of the Civilian and the Security Presence and 9a of the main body states that it is the International Security Presence who controls the return of any
Serbian personnel.
You are way to smart to believe Kfor is going to allow more than lightly armed (side pistols) Serbian personnel inside Kosovo, and that is a reach.

"Living the dream" aren't you?

If I were better to live it then to dream about it, isn't it?
-------
Maybe you should have read the link---*8.2 The SRSG will coordinate closely with the International Security Presence (Kfor).Coordinating with does not imply any authority over.

Until you get to 12,13 & 14 it sort of sums things up if there is a disagreement 1244 prevails.
--------------
Also 1244 directly spells out the responsibilities of the Civilian and the Security Presence and 9a of the main body states that it is the International Security Presence who controls the return of any
Serbian personnel.

Except as provided in point 6 of annex 2.

----------
You are way to smart to believe Kfor is going to allow more than lightly armed (side pistols) Serbian personnel inside Kosovo, and that is a reach.

Well, what I believe is that they cannot dispute more than pistols less than tanks which all fall under the category classification of light weapons, as with the KSF.

Dan, why do you keep supplying support for my position and then think you are right.
"Chapter 13

Authority of KFOR
Nothing in this Constitutional Framework shall affect the authority of the International Security Presence (KFOR) to fulfil all aspects of its mandate under UNSCR 1244(1999) and the Military Technical Agreement (Kumanovo Agreement)."

Also you cannot separate a sentence from a paragraph and give it a new meaning.

"Except as provided in point 6 of annex 2."

"Deterring renewed hostilities, maintaining and where necessary enforcing a ceasefire, and ensuring the withdrawal and preventing the return into Kosovo of Federal and Republic military, police and paramilitary forces, except as provided in point 6 of annex 2; "
This is giving exception to who may return, not Kfor's control over the situation.
1244 is very clear it sets up a Civilian presence and Security presence and outlines each separate responsibilities and says they will work together but not one under the other.

Serbian personel as from Serbia proper? Why, why when there are already Serbian officers from KP who guard these churches and monasteries together with their Albanian colleagues. This is nothing but scoring political points.

1244 does give Serbia the right to send its police and troops back into the province. maybe rexepi should read 1244 again - or get someone to read it to him!

I do not believe that the Kosovo Albanians are capable to manage an own state (including maintaining security) without having the European Union pumping every year millions of EURO into the Kosovo.

Annex 2 point 6 says:
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;

- Marking/clearing minefields;

- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;

- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/3b00f27216.html

Redzepi said this was "only wishful thinking of some individuals".

Absolutely right, nothing but wishful thinking.

1244 does give Serbia the right to send its police and troops back into the province. maybe rexepi should read 1244 again - or get someone to read it to him!
(Goran V, 16 August 2010 13:04)

No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago.

(dht, 16 August 2010 12:45)

Then you are wrong, Kosovo today functions without any foreign AID beside military protection. Kosovo recive the same amount of AID from US, EU, IMF, WB and others same as all her neighbors. Actually since -99 Kosovo has recived less then 4 billion euro's in AID for a period of decade (10 years) compare to Greece who recive 6 billion euro yearly. Check your facts next time.

"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:
(Joachim, 16 August 2010 12:41)
you are missing the understanding of a key word in here 'an agreed number'...right now that agreed number is zero, nada, zip. and it will remain that way.
The way I am understanding the serbian gov't is this: they are saying they do not trust the serbian citizens of kosovo to guard these monuments so they want to send their own....?

and dacic is going to the moon soon, to protect serb heritage.

come on get real.

regards

'1244? Well, 1244 states that both sides need to find a MUTUAL agreed deal. An UDI is not really mutally agreed on I would say...
(Ron, 16 August 2010 15:36) '

I just checked - there's nothing in 1244 about a "mutual agreed" solution. You may have the underlying Rambouillet Accords in mind? Nothing there, either - "3. Three years after the entry into force of this Agreement, an international meeting shall be convened to determine a mechanism for a final settlement for Kosovo, on the basis of the will of the people, opinions of relevant authorities, each Party's efforts regarding the implementation of this Agreement, and the Helsinki Final Act, and to undertake a comprehensive assessment of the implementation of this Agreement and to consider proposals by any Party for additional measures."

(The Helsinki Final Act calls for both respect for human rights (pushed by the West) and respect for existing borders (Soviets). The Soviets wanted it to ensure that Germany would remain divided; dissidents used it to, ultimately, reunite it. We see which of the two standards prevailed.)

So, what we have now is a settlement based on "the will of the people." Nowhere is it said that Serbia has to be happy with it.

"Personel", huh? Why you don`t call the baby by it`s name? Why you don`t say that you want to send troops into Kosovo? Wouldn`t be so opportune when speaking of "peaceful solution", right?

Again, one of those (failed) threats. Dream on..

''If it is Kosovo's cultural heritage can somebody explain to me why it is that 'Kosovan's' vandalise and destroy it? Very odd.''


If Kosovo is Serbia then why did the serbian army kill the kosovar people and chased them to other countrys ??

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.

Annex 2 point 6 says:
"6. After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;

- Marking/clearing minefields;

- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;

- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings."

[link]
(Joachim, 16 August 2010 12:41)

That's all fine and dandy but there's some points you're skipping.

1. Agreed number. What is this agreed number specifically? Also agreed with who? Is this agreed number with KFOR or with Kosova Albanians?

2. Yugoslav and Serbian personnel? What exactly constitutes a Yugoslav. Since this word has had different meaning throughout the years then could a Yugoslav be a Albanian, a Croatian, a Slovenian?

3. Serbian personnel? What exactly should we understand from the words Serb personnel. Could this personnel be Kosova Serbs; or would they have to be Serbs from Serbia proper. Why one or the other?

4. The very important words in there are agreed number. Since there is no agreed number either with KFOR or the Albanians then that means there is no permission. Hence that number is zero as long as there is no agreed number, because the number zero means there is no permission because the lack of agreement.


Also those who mention 1244 and the words "MUTUAL agreement" can someone here please provide where in 1244 the words MUTUAL agreement appear together. I have yet to find them. If the words MUTUAL agreement do not appear together then we can infer and interpret agreement as being an agreement between Kosova and others, that are not necessarily Serbia. The ICJ declared that independence was a foreseen solution in 1244 hence a declaration of independence did not violate 1244. Even the ICJ backs our interpretation of 1244.

Yes 1244 does say that an agreed number of Serbian personnel can return to do a number of things such as guard the churches.

However, you are overlooking the real reason why this was never implemented. Simple fact is, the re-entry of any number of Serbian troops, after what they had done in 1999 to the Albanians, would have been grist in the mill of the most anti-Serb and most vengeful among the Albanians, with fresh memories of their massacred relatives. The revenge was bad (and indiscriminate)enough as it was, and as posters here know I always vigorously condemn it; however the idea that the presence of any Serbian troops would have made that better rather than a lot worse is naive in the extreme. In fact the real issue would have been "who will protect the protectors" if the Serb army had come back to "protect" local Serbs or churches.

That said, few would deny that the job done by Albanians and internationals has been pretty shabby, but things are far far better than the days of 2004, long ago. It is local Serb police protecting Gracanica for god's sake; how anyone can think that the re-entry of Serbian troops could in any way be better, rather than an extraordinary provocation, is beyond me.

Redzepi likes to talk tough, standing behind the NATO war criminals who protect him. There will soon come a day when his protectors will be gone and bankrupt, and then we won't even ask him his opinion on who should guard the Serbian Holy sites.

"Kosovo has its own police which guards monasteries which are Kosovo's cultural heritage,"
Even if one agrees (I don’t) that Kosovo is a legitimate country the heritage spoken about is in fact Serbian Orthodox Christianity. It cannot be claimed by Kosovo (accept in as much it is geographically in Kosovo) in any way shape or form. Even if it is only Serb KPS detailed to guard them it does not make them a Government Heritage site any more than Canterbury Cathedral is owned by the UK Government it is owed by the Church of England. This really is a jumped up Kosovo Government trying to hijack some culture which they as Albanians do not and never will have.

Annex 2, Point 8

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions.
(Jugoslavija, 16 August 2010 19:29)

...And your point is? Where in there do you see "Mutual agreement for the final status"? Do you see that spelled out? I don't. I only see what you pasted, apply to the interim period. That is indeed spelled out. There's nothing there about a "mutual agreement" for a final status. It only states that negotiation for a settlement should not disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions. It doesn't spell out if this settlement should be "mutually agreed". It doesn't spell out that the final settlement should guarantee Jugoslavia's territorial integrity; and it doesn't spell out that if Serbia does not agree during the negotiation process then the interim period is not over or that it continues in perpetuity until Serbia agrees. Nothing of that sort is spelled out when it comes to the final solution. Everything of that sort is spelled out when it comes to the interim period. Also notice the words "interim political framework agreement". That is exactly what we had until the declaration of independence; an interim political framework agreement that established self-government for Kosova taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. We agree on that?
Now that we established that you claim that the interim agreement is not over. We claim the interim agreement is over. 1244 does not provide anything and or any deadlines or method that establishes when the interim period or agreement is over. There is nothing that spells that out on 1244. The UN secretary general however gave powers to his representative to decide when the interim agreement was over. Ahtisari decided that it was over. We agreed and declared our independnece. We only respected the UN secretary general and his decision. Thus following UN secretary's general representative and the fact that he deemed the interim period was over and since the Rambouillet accords foresaw independence of Kosova as a final result we took that route. Simple. You can keep claiming the interim period isn't over while we can keep claiming that UN Secretary delegated the power to decide when such period is over to Ahtisari and he decided it was over. Whether or not you agree with that; that's a different matter. We are just respecting UN secretary's decision( he made through his representative). So you can copy and paste anything you want. That doesn't make your claim more valid than ours. You might want to claim that the interim period continues in perpetuity and eternity, while we claim that UN secretary general decided that that period was over. The fact that you do not agree with that does not by any means mean that such an interim period will continue until you agree its over; nowhere in 1244 it is specifically stated that the interim period ends when Serbia agrees that the interim period is over. 1244 did not give such power to Serbia. Such a thing is not spelled out in 1244.

1244? Well, 1244 states that both sides need to find a MUTUAL agreed deal. An UDI is not really mutally agreed on I would say...

Serbia should call the GA's attention to HATO's violation of 1244 concerning the return of the Serbian police.
(JohnBoy, 16 August 2010 18:54)
I think you would have a hard time proving any violation of 1244 by NATO little on your version called HATO.
1. To date Serbia has never made an official request to send anyone in, only talk from posters here and nationalists not in control.
2. There is no directive as to how many "personnel" has to be allowed other than the maximum of less than 1000.
Finally
"Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands);"
The "Serbian" personnell would be supervised by Kfor and not Belgrade.
Since 11 years have elapsed without Serbia wishing to send in personnel, I doubt you could muster support for it now, and if you do all you have to do is get all 5 veto wielding members to agree.

"which are Kosovo's cultural heritage."

Sure it is! That's why albanians have burned down hundreds of churches and monasteries in Kosovo. As immigrants to Kosovo albanians don't have any cultural heritage there.

RE:

"The UN Security Council Resolution 1244 does not say that Serbia has the right to send its police to Kosovo," he further asserted.


Annex 2, Number 6

After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;
Marking/clearing minefields;
Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
Maintaining a presence at key border crossings.

Of course it means police, you can't man a custom post without arms. Given that over 100 Serbian monasteries have been burned to the ground along with gravesites, an armed security presence is necessary.

Relax Alabanians we'll continue to visit you sans uniforms :) relax again I'm just kiddin. Anyway we're just upping the ante that's all. That's worth a bit. After all 1244 is in force, no? Permanent member of Security council can say, maybe shout: respect all of it now. Or maybe we'll have new resolution? Which is more probable to happen, friends? Hmmm.

"Kosovo has its own police which guards monasteries which are Kosovo's cultural heritage," he told Kosovska Mitrovica radio Contact Plus, in reference to the Serbian Orthodox monasteries.

Ah, yes, "Kosovo's cultural heritage". Good joke!

(Dan, 18 August 2010 17:10)
I am saying at this point in time (11 years post) Kfor which is given the security duties for Kosovo, UNMIK is the Civilian Presence can ignore 1244.
But "if" and that is a big IF Serbia were to want to send in personnel then they would have to negotiate the number and whether they were to be armed (Kfor's perrogative) This could take several several years to finalize.
1244set the stage but left the implementation up to those in charge. Serbian personnel entering without said agreeement would be in direct violation and could be expelled.

Kosova USA - "No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago."

I nearly split my sides laughing at this comment. Either you are very naive or stupid! Ask yourself this question. If 1244 isn't valid and your so called president, prime minister and every Albanian in Kosovo calls for the UN to leave, then why don't the UN leave as requested. You are after all a "sovereign nation" according to your own propaganda.

I know it's hard for you to swallow (so you dream some fantasy) but you KNOW and I know that the UN are in charge in Kosovo because Kosovo is still a province of Serbia. If that WASN'T the case then you would legitimately be able to ask the UN to leave. The fact that you can't do that says how in control you are. Kosovo is nothing more that a puppet povince controlled by the US. You have to do as your masters say - some independence! Even better is that you have to obey the UN where China and Russia get a say. That's why you can't do as you please in Kosovo. If you haven't put all the dots together by now then you really are stupid and my condolences to your parents.

Serbs cannont guard Serbs nor can they guard Serbian Holy sites for the simple fact that albanians want to demonstrate their love and appreciation for Serbs themselves.

What better way to demonstrate that love than by this act of protection?

Serbs need to disregards the murder anniversay of those two boys swimming in the river defenselessly, the previous 100 churches burned since 1999, graves desecrated, buses blown up, grenades thrown into homes, and the continued expulsion of Serbs from Kosovo...come on...albanians love SERBS..isn't it obvious?

"So, in contrary to UN 1244 where the KLA was to be disarmed, they are allowed into Kosovo and to fully cleanse Serbs from Drenica, Pec, Prizren, and Pristina under the watchful eye of KFOR?"

The KLA was disarmed by KFOR. Unfortunately there was not a lot anyone could do about a lot of people with guns taking collective revenge, especially in the first months after June 99 (and briefly in March 2004). It was certainly appalling (as all such actions are elsewhere in the world and in history) but it was a bit much to expect NATO to be everywhere at the same time. I agree they could have done a much better job (and I'm no defender of NATO in general), but it is simply dishonest to pretend they deliberately allowed violence against Serbs. Many times NATO troops protected Serbs and disarmed Albanians. The overall fault for the anti-Serb atmosphere - mostly paid for by innocent Serbs who stayed behind while war criminals fled ahead of everyone - must be accepted by those who creatd it - the serbian regime and military leadership at the time.

"After what was done to the Serbs from 1946-1999 by the Albanian extremists, UN resolution 1244 was supposed to provide protection"

That's a good imagination you got there. If you mean al those wild deep south-style stories of vicious Albanians attcking good serbs etc, it is mostly a lot of nonsense. For most of that period you noted, Serbian forces were in absolute conrol of Kosovo (1945-74, 1989-99) and severely repressed the Albanians; even in the period after 1974, this was cut short with the severe repression after 1981, when tens of thousands of Albanians were imprisoned on the flimsiest of charges. Actually, some 75% of political prisoners in Yugoslavia in the 1980s were Albanians, and that was BEFORE 1989. Check Amnesty International. There were horror stories about Albanians raping good Serb women, like tghe ones about US blacks raping good white women, but the actual criminal record shows about one such rape in the 1980s, with overall rape statistics in Kosovo lower than in Serbia, and nearly all rapes being by Albanian men of Albanian women. Of course serbs escaped the poverty of Kosovo and went to get better jobs in northern serbia and Vojvodina, and Albanians had more kids, that was the so-called "ethnic cleansing" you pretend about.

On the contrary, they all have agreed on 1244, for it to change all 5 have to abolish it. On your other points, I agree and don't fully understand why they have not gone in yet particully when Bajram Redzepi has just invited them to do so. A change of leadership should fix that problem up. There definately is a problem with this Govt's attitude with Kosovo.
It's like they are deliberately trying to lose.
(Dan, 17 August 2010 12:13)
I did not clarify myself, my point is that it is very doubtful at this time Kfor would agree to "any" Serbian police in Kosovo due to the fact it would cause a rise in tensions. And Serbia must get agreement from Kfor to send anyone. In order to override Kfor on this matter would take an agreement of all 5 veto wielding nations, which you know as well as I that would never happen.

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.
(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)
===================

Demi, if we are supposed to trust you after only six year sof "peace" which is debatable, then why won't you trust us after more years of peace? Fighting stopped a lot earlier than 2004 and yet you keep saying how you will never trust us again.
Well, my friend, we will never trust you again because you attacked and destroyed in peaceful times unlike Serbia sending her military down to Kosovo to calm murdering Albanians.

Now Pss,
Supervision means the act of watching over the work or tasks of another who may lack full knowledge of the concept at hand. Supervision does not mean control of another but guidance in a work, professional or personal context.

Sorry about the cut+paste but thought it was easier.
(Dan, 17 August 2010 17:02)
Should you have a job, try telling your supervisor at work he has no control over whether you stay or can be terminated, and then come back with a definition for Supervision during your term of unemployment.

Actually, 1244 says that kosovo's final status will be determined at some future date but did not specify how and when, so the status issue is ALWAYS undecided until there is mutual agreement or the us gives up (like it will soon in Iraq and Afghanistan).
Serbia should call the GA's attention to HATO's violation of 1244 concerning the return of the Serbian police.

However, you are overlooking the real reason why this was never implemented. Simple fact is, the re-entry of any number of Serbian troops, after what they had done in 1999 to the Albanians, would have been grist in the mill of the most anti-Serb and most vengeful among the Albanians, with fresh memories of their massacred relatives.

(DimTuc, 16 August 2010 18:51)

So, in contrary to UN 1244 where the KLA was to be disarmed, they are allowed into Kosovo and to fully cleanse Serbs from Drenica, Pec, Prizren, and Pristina under the watchful eye of KFOR?

This is not "re-entry of Serbian troops" but "Serbian personnel" if you read the text carefully.

After what was done to the Serbs from 1946-1999 by the Albanian extremists, UN resolution 1244 was supposed to provide protection, instead the international community is guilty of not abiding to international agreements and allowing anarchy and chaos above the rule of law.

Even Tito had some rule of law throughout the former Yugoslavia which is non-existant in Kosovo.

Thank you Joachim for the link. I'm sure a minor issue like this will be worked out in the inevitable compromise between Belgrade and Pristina. As far as Pristina is concerned, it really shouldn't matter who guards Serbian monuments since KFOR has been doing it since 1999. Even if it comes down to Serbs from Kosovo guarding them (and I can't think of anyone better), it's a sign Serbs are protecting their own heritage.

If Kosovo is Serbia then why did the serbian army kill the kosovar people and chased them to other countrys ??

Destroying of orthodox churchs in Kosovo has not happend since 2004. 6 years ago my friend and today they are safe and will be guarded by Kosovan police.
(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)

Just what the hell is a "Kosovar?" You are an Albanian, Serb, Gorani, or whatnot.

That's a good imagination you got there. If you mean al those wild deep south-style stories of vicious Albanians attcking good serbs etc, it is mostly a lot of nonsense. For most of that period you noted, Serbian forces were in absolute conrol of Kosovo (1945-74, 1989-99) and severely repressed the Albanians; even in the period after 1974, this was cut short with the severe repression after 1981, when tens of thousands of Albanians were imprisoned on the flimsiest of charges. Actually, some 75% of political prisoners in Yugoslavia in the 1980s were Albanians, and that was BEFORE 1989. Check Amnesty International. There were horror stories about Albanians raping good Serb women, like tghe ones about US blacks raping good white women, but the actual criminal record shows about one such rape in the 1980s, with overall rape statistics in Kosovo lower than in Serbia, and nearly all rapes being by Albanian men of Albanian women. Of course serbs escaped the poverty of Kosovo and went to get better jobs in northern serbia and Vojvodina, and Albanians had more kids, that was the so-called "ethnic cleansing" you pretend about.
(DimTuc, 17 August 2010 10:36)

Get your story straight, it was the Albanian communists who were pro Yugoslav in control of Kosovo.

Serbians left Kosovo under intense pressure from the Albanian majority as well as Economic circumstances.

If its imaginary, maybe you can explain why the current Serbian population in Kosovo is barely 4% when it was still close to 50% after WWII and that is after the Nazi control.

Tito and the Yugoslav government during the 1970's and 1980's ignored the plight of the Serbian minority in Kosovo. I can refer you to numerous documented evidence of the tacit ethnic cleansing of Serbs which accelerated between 1974-1989 coinciding with the substantial autonomy that was given to the Albanians in Kosovo in the name of brotherhood and unity.

Bajram Redzepi:"Kosovo has its own police which guards Monasteries which are Kosovo's
cultural heritage"Let me clear up some things here before you get more confused Mr.Redzepi.Serbian Orthodox Churches and Monasteries located on Serbia's sovereign Territory Kosovo and Metohija are Serbian heritage.They are not for sale.Maybe some day, God willing,you and your people will reach levels of maturity and civility to respect those institutions and
live in peace.

"No one reads 1244 again. 1244 has been flushed down the toilet bowl, long ago." (Kosova-USA)

-- If that were the case, Hysterical Skender wouldn't be making speeches calling for the UN to "replace" it

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=08&dd=04&nav_id=68875

If it is Kosovo's cultural heritage can somebody explain to me why it is that 'Kosovan's' vandalise and destroy it? Very odd. But then of course there is no such thing as a Kosovan. Kosovo is a Serbian word for a geographical region. Every town, village, river, and mountain has, or should I say had, a Serbian name. What happened to the Serbian population in Kosovo, ie the removal of their people and heritage, is genocide pure and simple. Yes I know it's a much abused word these days but in this context, it fits perfectly.

(Demi, 17 August 2010 10:58)

Demi there were some paramilitary units whose mental fitness was distorted by years in the feild, ask some US vets in Vietnam and now in Afghanistan still that does not excuse their actions or bring back the dead on either side. Without trying to sound condescending,
what about all the blankets food and medicine sent down by Serb officials to look after Albanians stranded during the Nato bombing, remember all reports by UN and official bodies say Albanians left after the begining of the bombing campaign. There are peices to this puzzle deliberately left out for you know what reasons.
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/albanian-interviews.htm

Besides serious risks for life and health of Serbs, Roma, etc. living in Kosovo, and for Serbian churches and monasteries another important issue is the drug export from "Kosova":

The heroin abuse among the Serbian youth has increased, because "Kosova" has become the European top drug trader.

Many EU-states made a big mistake when acknowledging a structure - "Kosova" - that cannot survive as a normal state:

They planted the roots of a future pariah state located in Europe.

Demi - you just make it so easy. The reason why Serb forces attacked albanians? Because they were/are terrorists. And before you start screaming and crying that they were "freedom fighters", why did your new allies, the US and EU classify UCK and KLA as terrorist organisations? They only took them off the list when Kosovo became important in their geopolitics.

Serbia should send military personnel or police officers in plain clothes with secret fire arms to Kosovo to guard the churches, monasteries, and monuments against destruction and harm, in case the Kosovo Police do nothing against attacking Albanians. If the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo will not grant visas nor passports to these Serbian guardians; realize that there are other ways to enter Kosovo, in regards to those who would willing do as such, which smugglers are very well aware of. If the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo tries to arrest those uncover Serbs who use fire arms to protect Serbian churches, monasteries, and monuments in Kosovo; the world body of nations can demand that a major human rights violation has occurred in Kosovo and Kosovo's independence status must be terminated as punishment. Serbia also is to enter a charge against the ethnic Albanian Muslim government of Kosovo and a charge against the Kosovo Police of Genocide toward Serbian churches, monasteries, monuments, Genocide of historical structures, Genocide of Christianity, and Serbian culture. If attacking Albanian Muslims get shot while trying to destroy a church, they won't try to use that tatic anymore. Some times, it seems that the Serbians must be martyrs to defend their property and maybe the answer is for Serbia to produce religious martyrs to deal with attackers against churches and monasteries. If there were Christian martyrs willing to do whatever it takes to protect churches and monasteries, these Christian martyrs can have comfort from their belief that they will be rewarded with eternal Paradise in defending their churches and monasteries against the infidels.

Then I guess Unmik and Serbia should start getting rapidly involved as the footnote states.
(Dan, 19 August 2010 18:09)
"Living the dream" aren't you?
Maybe you should have read the link---*8.2 The SRSG will coordinate closely with the International Security Presence (Kfor).Coordinating with does not imply any authority over.

Also 1244 directly spells out the responsibilities of the Civilian and the Security Presence and 9a of the main body states that it is the International Security Presence who controls the return of any
Serbian personnel.
You are way to smart to believe Kfor is going to allow more than lightly armed (side pistols) Serbian personnel inside Kosovo, and that is a reach.

RE; Mutual Agreed Solution

Annex 2, Point 8

A political process towards the establishment of an interim political framework agreement providing for substantial self-government for Kosovo, taking full account of the Rambouillet accords and the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other countries of the region, and the demilitarization of UCK. Negotiations between the parties for a settlement should not delay or disrupt the establishment of democratic self-governing institutions.

1.
dht:
"I do not believe that the Kosovo Albanians are capable to manage an own state (including maintaining security) without having the European Union pumping every year millions of EURO into the Kosovo.
(dht, 16 August 2010 12:45)"


2.
Pejoni:
"Then you are wrong, Kosovo today functions without any foreign AID beside military protection. Kosovo recive the same amount of AID from US, EU, IMF, WB and others same as all her neighbors. Actually since -99 Kosovo has recived less then 4 billion euro's in AID for a period of decade (10 years) compare to Greece who recive 6 billion euro yearly. Check your facts next time.
(Pejoni, 16 August 2010 15:51)"

3.
dht´s reply:

No, you should check the facts.

In addition, some weeks ago I´ve discussed the issue of survival capability of the structure "Kosovo-State" with a KFOR-officer returning from Kosovo.
And he told me that the current structure would not function without KFOR maintaining the infrastructure.

Further, he told me that the structure "Kosovo-State" is nothing but nepotism.

Many EU-states made a big mistake when acknowledging a structure that cannot survive as a normal state: They planted the roots of a future pariah state located in Europe.

Since 11 years have elapsed without Serbia wishing to send in personnel, I doubt you could muster support for it now, and if you do all you have to do is get all 5 veto wielding members to agree.
(pss, 16 August 2010 21:01)

On the contrary, they all have agreed on 1244, for it to change all 5 have to abolish it. On your other points, I agree and don't fully understand why they have not gone in yet particully when Bajram Redzepi has just invited them to do so. A change of leadership should fix that problem up. There definately is a problem with this Govt's attitude with Kosovo.
It's like they are deliberately trying to lose.

Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands)

Now Pss,
Supervision means the act of watching over the work or tasks of another who may lack full knowledge of the concept at hand. Supervision does not mean control of another but guidance in a work, professional or personal context.

Sorry about the cut+paste but thought it was easier.

Serbia agrees that the interim period is over. 1244 did not give such power to Serbia. Such a thing is not spelled out in 1244.
(johny, 16 August 2010 22:11)

UN Resolution 1244 has not been superceded and as such, remains in force. The so called plan by Ahtisarri was never passed by the UN security council or UN general assembly, it is a European plan that was rejected.

If you read the UN resolution 1244 carefully, it plainly states "negotiation", not "subjagation" and if you read the entire text of UN 1244, it does essentially provide for substantial autonomy but independance is never implied in the document.

It will be interesting to see at the UN General Assembly what will happen in the fall. UN resolution 1244 needs to be replaced and passed by the both the General Assembly and UN security council or status quo remains.

Should you have a job, try telling your supervisor at work he has no control over whether you stay or can be terminated, and then come back with a definition for Supervision during your term of unemployment.
(pss, 17 August 2010 23:26)
Supervisors don't sack managers do, what I'm saying is a manager(security council) mandated my job and tasked a supervisor to ensure I conduct myself under that mandate(hundreds not thousands), the supervisor cannot overide a manager's decision and tell me i'm not hired. The supervisor can recommend not to hire me but that means going back to management(sec council) to change it's decision. Just when I thought bureaucracy was a bad thing, it sneaks up and bites me on the posterior.

Time for the monks and priests of the Serbian churches and Serbian monasteries to learn and practice Oriental martial arts.
In China, for centuries, there were Buddhist temples and Buddhist monasteries where the monks and priests practiced martial arts. The clergy learned hand and foot fighting as well as being trained in various weapons including spears, swords, wooden staffs, and metal "throwing stars". The purpose of the martial arts was for the monks and priests to be able to protect themselves and to protect their temples and monasteries.
The most famous martial arts Buddhist temple in China is the Shaolin Temple at Sung Shan near Zhengzhou City, Henan Providence which was once destroyed by an army by the warlord Shi Yousan in 1928, but in much later years became rebuilt and restaffed with monks and priests.
There were other, lesser known Shaolin Temples which practiced martial arts in China.
In South Korea, there is a Buddhist monastery, high in the mountains, inwhich the monks and priests practice martial arts, even today.

(Dan, 17 August 2010 17:02)
I notice you copied your definition from Wikipedia which is a great source of information but cannot be construed as any type of authoritative source due to the fact that it is readil changed by input from readers.
If you go to dictionary.com you will gethe following definition of Supervise
–verb (used with object), -vised, -vis·ing.
to oversee (a process, work, workers, etc.) during execution or performance;
synonyms: manage, direct, control, guide.
Pretty much sums up the fact that any Serbian personnel would be under the direct supervision, management, direction, control and guidance of Kfor.

I notice you copied your definition from Wikipedia which is a great source of information but cannot be construed as any type of authoritative source due to the fact that it is readil changed by input from readers.
If you go to dictionary.com you will gethe following definition of Supervise
–verb (used with object), -vised, -vis·ing.
to oversee (a process, work, workers, etc.) during execution or performance;
synonyms: manage, direct, control, guide.
Pretty much sums up the fact that any Serbian personnel would be under the direct supervision, management, direction, control and guidance of Kfor.
(pss, 18 August 2010 03:33)

My point all along, Unmik as a supervisor is tasked to implement the UNSC planning decision and not to refuse or disagree with that decision. Unmik needs to be afforded a revised, ammended or new superceding directive from the UNSC(which again I remind you requires the votes of all five members) to change that. Unmik in it's role will oversee/guide/control that Serbian security forces are following the UNSC directive as laid out in 1244 and it's annex's, unlike as you had posted earlier, that Unmik has the power to veto or ammend it's mandate (the sec council resolution), by refusing to allow Serbs sec forces in, on grounds not stipulated in the annex. Unmik cannot refuse Serbia's request to send it's security forces to guard patramonial sites etc so long as it fulfills the obligations/pre-requisites set out by the UNSC ie no more than 1999 personal (hundreds not thousands) etc and not because Unmik believes it could incite some Albanians. Unmik can advise Serb sec forces to approach certain areas at certain intervals, but ultimately cannot "control" them to do that because it only has a supervisory role.

I am saying at this point in time (11 years post) Kfor which is given the security duties for Kosovo, UNMIK is the Civilian Presence can ignore 1244.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)

Erm negative Pss,

CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR PROVISIONAL SELF-GOVERNMENT
UNMIK/REG/2001/9 - 15 May 2001
Determining that, within the limits defined by UNSCR 1244(1999), responsibilities will be transferred to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government....... http://www.unmikonline.org/constframework.htm
-----------------------
But "if" and that is a big IF Serbia were to want to send in personnel then they would have to negotiate the number and whether they were to be armed (Kfor's perrogative) This could take several several years to finalize.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)
Disagree on them being unarmed, my bet would be the same spec afforded to the the KSF, ie a lightly armed force in possession of no heavy weapons, such as tanks, heavy artillery or offensive air capability.
On the time frame, "years" unlikely, Đinđić also stopped "IF" when he sent his requests in January 2003.
Post 11 years not Serbia's fault or incompetence.
On another technical issue, the KSF capped to 2500 and 800 reservists took years because they needed to be trained from scratch, the competency level of Serb security forces is ready to roll out tommorow. Men who have trained with the Ohio guard would be ideal and offer no excuses or inhibitions on the part of KFOR or Unmik. Even I am amazed that there a use was found for this programme.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=912

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1244set the stage but left the implementation up to those in charge. Serbian personnel entering without said agreeement would be in direct violation and could be expelled.
(pss, 18 August 2010 20:43)

Then I guess Unmik and Serbia should start getting rapidly involved as the footnote states.

"Living the dream" aren't you?

If I were better to live it then to dream about it, isn't it?
-------
Maybe you should have read the link---*8.2 The SRSG will coordinate closely with the International Security Presence (Kfor).Coordinating with does not imply any authority over.

Until you get to 12,13 & 14 it sort of sums things up if there is a disagreement 1244 prevails.
--------------
Also 1244 directly spells out the responsibilities of the Civilian and the Security Presence and 9a of the main body states that it is the International Security Presence who controls the return of any
Serbian personnel.

Except as provided in point 6 of annex 2.

----------
You are way to smart to believe Kfor is going to allow more than lightly armed (side pistols) Serbian personnel inside Kosovo, and that is a reach.

Well, what I believe is that they cannot dispute more than pistols less than tanks which all fall under the category classification of light weapons, as with the KSF.

Dan, why do you keep supplying support for my position and then think you are right.
"Chapter 13

Authority of KFOR
Nothing in this Constitutional Framework shall affect the authority of the International Security Presence (KFOR) to fulfil all aspects of its mandate under UNSCR 1244(1999) and the Military Technical Agreement (Kumanovo Agreement)."

Also you cannot separate a sentence from a paragraph and give it a new meaning.

"Except as provided in point 6 of annex 2."

"Deterring renewed hostilities, maintaining and where necessary enforcing a ceasefire, and ensuring the withdrawal and preventing the return into Kosovo of Federal and Republic military, police and paramilitary forces, except as provided in point 6 of annex 2; "
This is giving exception to who may return, not Kfor's control over the situation.
1244 is very clear it sets up a Civilian presence and Security presence and outlines each separate responsibilities and says they will work together but not one under the other.