Gazprom will set South Stream route

Mircea,
Where are you going to get the gas if not Russia? From Azerbaijan? That pipeline is more expensive than South Stream. Go ahead if you don't mind paying more for gas.
I have news for you, Russia holds all the natural resources the world needs, in abundance. I am sure Russophobes like yourself would like to avoid all things Russian, but you simply can't, it's impossible. Russia has oil, gas, gold, nickel, iron ore, copper, platinum....and whatever else your heart desires, and that is why Russia is the future. Perhaps you should ask your American or German friends to give you gas - ooops, I forgot, they don't have any to give! :)
Cheers!!

Dragan,

There are alternatives to Russian gas.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 16:24)

Yeah, and how do you plan to get that gas into Romania, Germany, France...and the rest of Europe? Are you going to fly it over via plane? lol. Are you going to ship it? Fine, but this is way more expensive than a pipeline, and not feasible for many landlocked countries.
It warms my heart, Mircea, that when South Stream is built, your money, and German money, and Croat money, will be paying transit fees to Serbia to bring you that gas :).
Cheers!!

Dragane,
Do you think germans or italians or the french just print money or pick them up from trees and are just going to throw them at you?!

As for us, Romania imports around 30% from Russia (even less these days) so you'd have to leave us out from your calculations. remember who was shivering two winters ago?! wasn't us.
(adrian/bucharest, 11 August 2010 18:23)

Actually Adrian, they have been printing lots of money lately, lots and lots of it, which is going devalue the Euro in the long run, so I would suggest you invest in some gold if you want to be safe. Oh, and that gold may just come from Russia :). We don't expect handouts from anyone, but we do expect them to pay their transit fees, or else we will shut off the tap. Those are the rules.

As for your gas imports and where you get them from, that is up to you, but I am sure your citizens will go with the cheapest option, since you can't scrape two dimes together despite being in the EU and being NATO darlings (remember that wonderful missile shield to defend against imaginary 'rogue states'), dying for the imperialist fat cats in Afghanistan with your soldiers.

So tell me Adrian, 'Who's your daddy?'.

Europe should import gas from Azerbaijan. The NABUCCO project is also an alternative to Russian gas.

I hope that the South Stream project will never be built.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 11:42)

Mircea, how come you forgot to end your post with long live the EU???
But to your post, is depending on Azerbaijan and Turkey so much better than buying russian gas?? I don't think so...
I hope that Nabucco will never be built, and the odds are against it, heavily..

Are you going to fly it over via plane? lol. Are you going to ship it? Fine, but this is way more expensive than a pipeline, and not feasible for many landlocked countries.
It warms my heart, Mircea, that when South Stream is built, your money, and German money, and Croat money, will be paying transit fees to Serbia to bring you that gas :).
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 11 August 2010 17:32) Dragan dont get your hopes to high Croatia is building a LNG Super port on the island of Krk. Just 20% of its capacity can supply all of Croatias needs the rest is going to central European countries. With all those transit fees of south stream going through countrys it adds up pretty fast. Kremlin Russia as the well known control freaks if you do not do as they say no way hose. Enjoy your choke chain to Kremlin Russia maybe Croatia will loosen it for Serbia what are neighbours for.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 16:24)

You forgot Afghanistan, oops, no, that's for opium.
Otherwise wow, what a nice bunch of countries... :-(
(KZH excluded).

Changing the route of the gas pipeline will have an impact on its costs. I can see that it might be in Serbia's interests to have the pipeline enter the country in the South because this would make the expansion of the Serbian gas network to Nis and elsewhere cheaper.

Serbia and Bulgaria may get their way with the pipeline, but they may have to compensate Gazprom for additional costs.

"I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?
(Top, 11 August 2010 14:45) "

See [link].
(Amer, 11 August 2010 15:46)

Amer - knowing your stance as you were young and supported Praha Spring... now you cheer for Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan versus Russia?

Which society is more open to the "West": Russian or Turkmen + Azeri?
The world politics should not influence our views. In politics, Iran or Georgia is strongly pro-Kosovo but that does not make me like Saak or Ahmadinejad - neither has anything to do with the way we once envisioned the progress and I am stuck to that.

Sadly, I don't see any progress at all towards what we did see as an acceptable way of life: "Socialism with human face" was a good starting point to think about and Gorbachyov's "European House" was a nice dream.

Currently - largely because of American greed and hunger for might we got a nightmare out of the dream and you, Americans gave a nasty lesion to Russians and Serbs about "democracy values".

Wonder why people turning away? Because of the sins American politicians committed in East Europe. They did the worst against the democracy. What a shame! America made enemies out of best friends supporting it few decades before.

If I wake up with my Russian feet first I have quite a few embarrassing questions to American establishment... Never these questions will be answered. You guys lost friends and supporters big time.

But maybe I am not right, the life in the States is not what it used to be either. So everyone got the worst of it. Things went for (much) worse, we can't live as good as our parents and I am somewhat afraid, what the future will bring to the kids. I am normally very optimistic and cheerful - but looking around my mood changes for much worse.

Why should Europe say no to Russian gas what has Russia done to deserve your unapproval

"Final decision with Gazprom"

Who's your daddy?!!

Dragane,
Do you think germans or italians or the french just print money or pick them up from trees and are just going to throw them at you?!

As for us, Romania imports around 30% from Russia (even less these days) so you'd have to leave us out from your calculations. remember who was shivering two winters ago?! wasn't us.

Bulgaria and Serbia are making a big mistake by supporting the South Stream project.

Europe should say NO to Russian gas.

Europe should import gas from Azerbaijan. The NABUCCO project is also an alternative to Russian gas.

I hope that the South Stream project will never be built.

What NABUCCO and Southstream have in common that both are energy carrier which have to be replaced anyway in the next decades. There are actually obsolete energy sources, not good for environment (CO2) and not re-usable. Pipelines itself are even more obsolete carrier for gas. Use LNG and you have a real competetive market. Japan already shows it.

Water, Wind and solar energy are the future. Here, we need investments.

1) Azerbaijan is pretty much in the Russian influence zone. NABUCCO is de-facto not about lesser Russian influence. Azerbaijan is everything but a stabile democracy. I don't see it being more democratic and less Soviet than, say, Belarus. Go there... and it's a bizarre country, rather resembling Turkmenistan than, say, Albania (for west-lovers). You know well my stance, I will be rather going to Albania 10 times on vacation than to Azerbaijan or Turkmenistan a single time. OK, it, I mean, Albania does have more for the tourist, too. And I don't even want to mention the corruption and poverty - there compared with bizarristans (excluding Kazahstan) Kosovo looks like the paradise on Earth and also as symbol of stability.

We also have to say: these bizarristans have absolutely no legitimacy. They were born as the CPSU (Communist Party of Soviet Union) begun to break apart and in nearly every bizarristan the local little Stalin emerged, now (nearly) free from Moscow's BENEFITIAL influence.

I can't imagine monsters like Saparmurat Niyazov ("Turkmenbashi") would not get a boot in Soviet Union as it was still intact. He was a little nobody high in the ranks of the Turkmen Communist Party organization. Now after feeling the void he seized the power and became a madman dictator.

Azerbaijan is not THAT bad, but fairly close. And since Turkmenistan is also part of that NABUCCO - keep your eyes watching it, Mircea. All I say: "securitate" and you know what I mean. Tovarisul Nicolae Ceausescu was an angel compared with Saparmurat Niyazov. Good, both are dead and where they meet each other now is a pretty hot place.

So much about NABUCCO....

2) If Obama, Boris Tadic or Dmitri Medvedev will tell me how to write an ATA, SATA (or now USB 3.0) device driver for Mac OS X... well, I would tell them: take care about your business. But I am gladly taking your input as a wish of an end-user. Of course, VIP-s as "end-users" enjoy *** some *** privileges and here we (as company) are 100% politically neutral. VIP is a VIP... but not our instructor what to do.

Same with South Stream: where and how it will cross (hopefully) largely depends on engineers of Gazprom, to a (hopefully) much lesser degree on politicians and businessmen. They can voice their opinion (hopefully) as end-users.

If politicians and businessmen are instructing the engineers what to do, than we have to look at the Dilbert cartoon series.

Dragan,

There are alternatives to Russian gas.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.

I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?

Gazprom better figure out that Serbia & Bulgaria aren't Soviet satellites, "we tell you we want our pipeline here n here, n u will obey" Such attitude only gives Nabucco camp free points.

"Actually Adrian, they have been printing lots of money lately, lots and lots of it, which is going devalue the Euro in the long run, so I would suggest you invest in some gold if you want to be safe. Oh, and that gold may just come from Russia :). We don't expect handouts from anyone, but we do expect them to pay their transit fees, or else we will shut off the tap. Those are the rules. "

No offense, but your above statement contradicts the reasoning of building the pipe, as well as the article itself.
If the presidents of Serbia and Bulgaria toghether cannot establish the route of the pipe on their own territory, how would you expect your country to control the flow?
The transit fee will be negotiated and cashed in by the 51% Gazprom company controlling the pipe (50% in Bulgaria - good negotiation you did btw), so they'll be actually negotiating with Gazprom.
Don't get me wrong, I know Serbia has no other choice but to go along with whatever Kremlin says, but a little bit of realism and backing-up wouldn't hurt (that goes for your last paragraph as well). From what I am concerned, charge them 5000 euro per cubic milimeter, couldn't be more happy.

As for the gold coming from Russia, it will; it's the 100 tons of gold and other jewleries they stole from us in WW1 when we entrusted them, as friends and allies, with it and afterwards they "bravely" shook hands with our common enemy, Germany.

Both South Stream and NABUCCO should be constructed. The more the better. There is enough GAS in Russia, Central Asia and The Middle East. But no country should be able to hold tha tap for all the pipes. NAbucco avoids Russia, South Stream - Turkey

It is encouraging to read the comments and see an active participation in the discussion of these gas pipelines which are critical to Europe's future energy. It will be interesting to see if both Nabucco and South Stream are completed as they have been presented. www.naturalgasforeurope.com

"(Ataman (USB now), 11 August 2010 16:59) "

In order to maximize the confusion - I thought the link you were referring to was to the site cladd linked to, which was the last thing I'd read. However, I still don't see your problem with the link to the GeorgianDaily site, which you were referring to.

Anyway, one big European home is a sweet idea, but the smart guy keeps in mind what the other players are able to do, not what they - temporarily? - say/think they want to do. When I was younger and more naive (long after I should really have given up such nonsense) I cheered the idea that Russia would become a major U.S. energy supplier. It meant, I figured, we could never fight - it would be "mutually assured economic destruction." And then, just a little later, we see Putin letting his old buddies the East Europeans freeze. What would he do with the same power over a traditional rival?

About the best you can hope for in politics is that the players have their long-term advantage in mind, not just some quick win, since focusing on the long-term means leaving other countries without any need for retaliation. (For example, the U.S. did not come up with the Marshall Plan because Americans suddenly started feeling sorry for the Germans. They just wanted Europeans to be rich, happy, and UNWARLIKE! And now we complain that they don't want to fight in Afghanistan. Go figure.)

It is fairly clear that there will be diverse routes.

Russia has supplied gas to Europe for decades and throughout the Cold War without any interruptions (go ask Italy, Germany & France - all of whom have significant storage capacity - unlike the brits) save the Ukranian stupidity.

As to the wind man, yes JC you can provide all the wind you want yourself.

Renewables are still a long way off and europe has not even a master plan for a smart grid which is essential to manage and store multiple energy sources. Only nuclear can make up the shortfall rapidly
(and possibly a switch to thorium as a fuel). The chinese already have prototype pebble bed reactors (a sliver of uranium surrounded by a pebble of silicon-carbide) that cannot go critical and neither need an expensive containment vessel, thus being able to be located much nearer to or in populated centers.

BTW, which highly democratic country blocked RFE/RL, BBC World Service and Deutsche Welle from its airwaves this January? I'll give you a clue: It is the same country that jailed young activists for making a video where they interview a donkey (no, not a real one) about how great the country is...

"I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?
(Top, 11 August 2010 14:45) "

See http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19593&Itemid=132.

'See [link].
(Amer, 11 August 2010 15:46)

Amer - knowing your stance as you were young and supported Praha Spring... now you cheer for Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan versus Russia? '

Hey, 'man, did you look at the link? It's a collection of articles covering ALL SIDES of the Nabucco-South Stream-other ideas story.

And, BTW, how did you get from there to my personally supporting Tadzhikistan? (I cannot, as far as I can tell, have any feelings, one way or the other, about this -stan.)

Anyway, South Stream is a Russian ploy to keep up the pressure on the Ukraine and hold Europe hostage. I am not amazed - countries do tend to act in what they consider to be their best interests. But Russia doesn't have the gas available itself (Gazprom has been investing in projects dear to the Kremlin's heart rather than developing new fields, remember), or the capital to build the line. If it gets built, the gas is going to cost much more than it would if it traveled through an upgraded Ukrainian network.

And just look at the long detour the line is taking to avoid Romania and provide Serbia with hopes of becoming a major energy player - this is a political, not an engineering project. So of course is Nabucco, but it can probably arrange the financing. And the gas - Iraq has plenty, Egypt would like to get on board ...

Anyway, this story has been going back and forth for years - I make no predictions how it will eventually turn out.

(cladd, 11 August 2010 16:33) -

Good site, thanks.

Bulgaria and Serbia are making a big mistake by supporting the South Stream project.

Europe should say NO to Russian gas.

Europe should import gas from Azerbaijan. The NABUCCO project is also an alternative to Russian gas.

I hope that the South Stream project will never be built.

Dragan,

There are alternatives to Russian gas.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.

Dragan,

There are alternatives to Russian gas.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 16:24)

Yeah, and how do you plan to get that gas into Romania, Germany, France...and the rest of Europe? Are you going to fly it over via plane? lol. Are you going to ship it? Fine, but this is way more expensive than a pipeline, and not feasible for many landlocked countries.
It warms my heart, Mircea, that when South Stream is built, your money, and German money, and Croat money, will be paying transit fees to Serbia to bring you that gas :).
Cheers!!

Dragane,
Do you think germans or italians or the french just print money or pick them up from trees and are just going to throw them at you?!

As for us, Romania imports around 30% from Russia (even less these days) so you'd have to leave us out from your calculations. remember who was shivering two winters ago?! wasn't us.
(adrian/bucharest, 11 August 2010 18:23)

Actually Adrian, they have been printing lots of money lately, lots and lots of it, which is going devalue the Euro in the long run, so I would suggest you invest in some gold if you want to be safe. Oh, and that gold may just come from Russia :). We don't expect handouts from anyone, but we do expect them to pay their transit fees, or else we will shut off the tap. Those are the rules.

As for your gas imports and where you get them from, that is up to you, but I am sure your citizens will go with the cheapest option, since you can't scrape two dimes together despite being in the EU and being NATO darlings (remember that wonderful missile shield to defend against imaginary 'rogue states'), dying for the imperialist fat cats in Afghanistan with your soldiers.

So tell me Adrian, 'Who's your daddy?'.

Are you going to fly it over via plane? lol. Are you going to ship it? Fine, but this is way more expensive than a pipeline, and not feasible for many landlocked countries.
It warms my heart, Mircea, that when South Stream is built, your money, and German money, and Croat money, will be paying transit fees to Serbia to bring you that gas :).
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 11 August 2010 17:32) Dragan dont get your hopes to high Croatia is building a LNG Super port on the island of Krk. Just 20% of its capacity can supply all of Croatias needs the rest is going to central European countries. With all those transit fees of south stream going through countrys it adds up pretty fast. Kremlin Russia as the well known control freaks if you do not do as they say no way hose. Enjoy your choke chain to Kremlin Russia maybe Croatia will loosen it for Serbia what are neighbours for.

Why should Europe say no to Russian gas what has Russia done to deserve your unapproval

"Final decision with Gazprom"

Who's your daddy?!!

Dragane,
Do you think germans or italians or the french just print money or pick them up from trees and are just going to throw them at you?!

As for us, Romania imports around 30% from Russia (even less these days) so you'd have to leave us out from your calculations. remember who was shivering two winters ago?! wasn't us.

What NABUCCO and Southstream have in common that both are energy carrier which have to be replaced anyway in the next decades. There are actually obsolete energy sources, not good for environment (CO2) and not re-usable. Pipelines itself are even more obsolete carrier for gas. Use LNG and you have a real competetive market. Japan already shows it.

Water, Wind and solar energy are the future. Here, we need investments.

Gazprom better figure out that Serbia & Bulgaria aren't Soviet satellites, "we tell you we want our pipeline here n here, n u will obey" Such attitude only gives Nabucco camp free points.

Europe can import gas from Azerbaijan, Kazahstan, Iran and Iraq.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 16:24)

You forgot Afghanistan, oops, no, that's for opium.
Otherwise wow, what a nice bunch of countries... :-(
(KZH excluded).

Mircea,
Where are you going to get the gas if not Russia? From Azerbaijan? That pipeline is more expensive than South Stream. Go ahead if you don't mind paying more for gas.
I have news for you, Russia holds all the natural resources the world needs, in abundance. I am sure Russophobes like yourself would like to avoid all things Russian, but you simply can't, it's impossible. Russia has oil, gas, gold, nickel, iron ore, copper, platinum....and whatever else your heart desires, and that is why Russia is the future. Perhaps you should ask your American or German friends to give you gas - ooops, I forgot, they don't have any to give! :)
Cheers!!

I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?

'See [link].
(Amer, 11 August 2010 15:46)

Amer - knowing your stance as you were young and supported Praha Spring... now you cheer for Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan versus Russia? '

Hey, 'man, did you look at the link? It's a collection of articles covering ALL SIDES of the Nabucco-South Stream-other ideas story.

And, BTW, how did you get from there to my personally supporting Tadzhikistan? (I cannot, as far as I can tell, have any feelings, one way or the other, about this -stan.)

Anyway, South Stream is a Russian ploy to keep up the pressure on the Ukraine and hold Europe hostage. I am not amazed - countries do tend to act in what they consider to be their best interests. But Russia doesn't have the gas available itself (Gazprom has been investing in projects dear to the Kremlin's heart rather than developing new fields, remember), or the capital to build the line. If it gets built, the gas is going to cost much more than it would if it traveled through an upgraded Ukrainian network.

And just look at the long detour the line is taking to avoid Romania and provide Serbia with hopes of becoming a major energy player - this is a political, not an engineering project. So of course is Nabucco, but it can probably arrange the financing. And the gas - Iraq has plenty, Egypt would like to get on board ...

Anyway, this story has been going back and forth for years - I make no predictions how it will eventually turn out.

Changing the route of the gas pipeline will have an impact on its costs. I can see that it might be in Serbia's interests to have the pipeline enter the country in the South because this would make the expansion of the Serbian gas network to Nis and elsewhere cheaper.

Serbia and Bulgaria may get their way with the pipeline, but they may have to compensate Gazprom for additional costs.

Europe should import gas from Azerbaijan. The NABUCCO project is also an alternative to Russian gas.

I hope that the South Stream project will never be built.
(Mircea, 11 August 2010 11:42)

Mircea, how come you forgot to end your post with long live the EU???
But to your post, is depending on Azerbaijan and Turkey so much better than buying russian gas?? I don't think so...
I hope that Nabucco will never be built, and the odds are against it, heavily..

Both South Stream and NABUCCO should be constructed. The more the better. There is enough GAS in Russia, Central Asia and The Middle East. But no country should be able to hold tha tap for all the pipes. NAbucco avoids Russia, South Stream - Turkey

"I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?
(Top, 11 August 2010 14:45) "

See http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19593&Itemid=132.

"Actually Adrian, they have been printing lots of money lately, lots and lots of it, which is going devalue the Euro in the long run, so I would suggest you invest in some gold if you want to be safe. Oh, and that gold may just come from Russia :). We don't expect handouts from anyone, but we do expect them to pay their transit fees, or else we will shut off the tap. Those are the rules. "

No offense, but your above statement contradicts the reasoning of building the pipe, as well as the article itself.
If the presidents of Serbia and Bulgaria toghether cannot establish the route of the pipe on their own territory, how would you expect your country to control the flow?
The transit fee will be negotiated and cashed in by the 51% Gazprom company controlling the pipe (50% in Bulgaria - good negotiation you did btw), so they'll be actually negotiating with Gazprom.
Don't get me wrong, I know Serbia has no other choice but to go along with whatever Kremlin says, but a little bit of realism and backing-up wouldn't hurt (that goes for your last paragraph as well). From what I am concerned, charge them 5000 euro per cubic milimeter, couldn't be more happy.

As for the gold coming from Russia, it will; it's the 100 tons of gold and other jewleries they stole from us in WW1 when we entrusted them, as friends and allies, with it and afterwards they "bravely" shook hands with our common enemy, Germany.

"I'm curious if the South stream project will start at all. How many delays have there been so far?
(Top, 11 August 2010 14:45) "

See [link].
(Amer, 11 August 2010 15:46)

Amer - knowing your stance as you were young and supported Praha Spring... now you cheer for Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan versus Russia?

Which society is more open to the "West": Russian or Turkmen + Azeri?
The world politics should not influence our views. In politics, Iran or Georgia is strongly pro-Kosovo but that does not make me like Saak or Ahmadinejad - neither has anything to do with the way we once envisioned the progress and I am stuck to that.

Sadly, I don't see any progress at all towards what we did see as an acceptable way of life: "Socialism with human face" was a good starting point to think about and Gorbachyov's "European House" was a nice dream.

Currently - largely because of American greed and hunger for might we got a nightmare out of the dream and you, Americans gave a nasty lesion to Russians and Serbs about "democracy values".

Wonder why people turning away? Because of the sins American politicians committed in East Europe. They did the worst against the democracy. What a shame! America made enemies out of best friends supporting it few decades before.

If I wake up with my Russian feet first I have quite a few embarrassing questions to American establishment... Never these questions will be answered. You guys lost friends and supporters big time.

But maybe I am not right, the life in the States is not what it used to be either. So everyone got the worst of it. Things went for (much) worse, we can't live as good as our parents and I am somewhat afraid, what the future will bring to the kids. I am normally very optimistic and cheerful - but looking around my mood changes for much worse.

1) Azerbaijan is pretty much in the Russian influence zone. NABUCCO is de-facto not about lesser Russian influence. Azerbaijan is everything but a stabile democracy. I don't see it being more democratic and less Soviet than, say, Belarus. Go there... and it's a bizarre country, rather resembling Turkmenistan than, say, Albania (for west-lovers). You know well my stance, I will be rather going to Albania 10 times on vacation than to Azerbaijan or Turkmenistan a single time. OK, it, I mean, Albania does have more for the tourist, too. And I don't even want to mention the corruption and poverty - there compared with bizarristans (excluding Kazahstan) Kosovo looks like the paradise on Earth and also as symbol of stability.

We also have to say: these bizarristans have absolutely no legitimacy. They were born as the CPSU (Communist Party of Soviet Union) begun to break apart and in nearly every bizarristan the local little Stalin emerged, now (nearly) free from Moscow's BENEFITIAL influence.

I can't imagine monsters like Saparmurat Niyazov ("Turkmenbashi") would not get a boot in Soviet Union as it was still intact. He was a little nobody high in the ranks of the Turkmen Communist Party organization. Now after feeling the void he seized the power and became a madman dictator.

Azerbaijan is not THAT bad, but fairly close. And since Turkmenistan is also part of that NABUCCO - keep your eyes watching it, Mircea. All I say: "securitate" and you know what I mean. Tovarisul Nicolae Ceausescu was an angel compared with Saparmurat Niyazov. Good, both are dead and where they meet each other now is a pretty hot place.

So much about NABUCCO....

2) If Obama, Boris Tadic or Dmitri Medvedev will tell me how to write an ATA, SATA (or now USB 3.0) device driver for Mac OS X... well, I would tell them: take care about your business. But I am gladly taking your input as a wish of an end-user. Of course, VIP-s as "end-users" enjoy *** some *** privileges and here we (as company) are 100% politically neutral. VIP is a VIP... but not our instructor what to do.

Same with South Stream: where and how it will cross (hopefully) largely depends on engineers of Gazprom, to a (hopefully) much lesser degree on politicians and businessmen. They can voice their opinion (hopefully) as end-users.

If politicians and businessmen are instructing the engineers what to do, than we have to look at the Dilbert cartoon series.

(cladd, 11 August 2010 16:33) -

Good site, thanks.

"(Ataman (USB now), 11 August 2010 16:59) "

In order to maximize the confusion - I thought the link you were referring to was to the site cladd linked to, which was the last thing I'd read. However, I still don't see your problem with the link to the GeorgianDaily site, which you were referring to.

Anyway, one big European home is a sweet idea, but the smart guy keeps in mind what the other players are able to do, not what they - temporarily? - say/think they want to do. When I was younger and more naive (long after I should really have given up such nonsense) I cheered the idea that Russia would become a major U.S. energy supplier. It meant, I figured, we could never fight - it would be "mutually assured economic destruction." And then, just a little later, we see Putin letting his old buddies the East Europeans freeze. What would he do with the same power over a traditional rival?

About the best you can hope for in politics is that the players have their long-term advantage in mind, not just some quick win, since focusing on the long-term means leaving other countries without any need for retaliation. (For example, the U.S. did not come up with the Marshall Plan because Americans suddenly started feeling sorry for the Germans. They just wanted Europeans to be rich, happy, and UNWARLIKE! And now we complain that they don't want to fight in Afghanistan. Go figure.)

It is encouraging to read the comments and see an active participation in the discussion of these gas pipelines which are critical to Europe's future energy. It will be interesting to see if both Nabucco and South Stream are completed as they have been presented. www.naturalgasforeurope.com

It is fairly clear that there will be diverse routes.

Russia has supplied gas to Europe for decades and throughout the Cold War without any interruptions (go ask Italy, Germany & France - all of whom have significant storage capacity - unlike the brits) save the Ukranian stupidity.

As to the wind man, yes JC you can provide all the wind you want yourself.

Renewables are still a long way off and europe has not even a master plan for a smart grid which is essential to manage and store multiple energy sources. Only nuclear can make up the shortfall rapidly
(and possibly a switch to thorium as a fuel). The chinese already have prototype pebble bed reactors (a sliver of uranium surrounded by a pebble of silicon-carbide) that cannot go critical and neither need an expensive containment vessel, thus being able to be located much nearer to or in populated centers.

BTW, which highly democratic country blocked RFE/RL, BBC World Service and Deutsche Welle from its airwaves this January? I'll give you a clue: It is the same country that jailed young activists for making a video where they interview a donkey (no, not a real one) about how great the country is...