Kosovo to submit demand for UN membership

Wishful think by a boring and unatttractive separatist Albanian politician. What are you going to about Russia and China, in the UNSC, that will block your way every step. Do you, Fatmire, think that China will change it's position on illegal UDI's when it has it's historic situation with Taiwan, just to appease the Pristina Albanians? Get real, Fatmire. I don't think mamma America is going to be able to help you with this one.

Hahaha!!!! Submit a request, based on what? The ICJ verdict? All the verdict said was that your declaration was not illegal but would not be drawn on your secession. For those who know their history........the Roman emperor declared his horse to be a Roman senator. Draw the parallels yourselves.

Russia will veto no matter what.

I have lsot count of the number of times pro-Albanian posters on B92 boasted about not needing UN membership .... obviously their Fatmir thinks differently. Fat chance with China and Russian in the UNSC!

With the ICJ having declared that proclamations of independence do not breach international law, well, then:

-- Strpce and north Kosovo can do a UDI
-- Eastern Slavonian Serbs can do a UDI
-- Macedonian Albanians can do a UDI
-- Tibet can do a UDI
-- Taiwan can do a UDI
-- Hispanics in US can do a UDI
-- African Americans in US can do a UDI
-- American Red Indians can do a UDI
-- Corsica can do a UDI
-- Greenlanders can do a UDI
-- Quebec can do a UDI
-- Ainu in Hokkaido, Japan can do a UDI
-- etc etc

ie. in practically every country you will have someone able to proclaim independence.

It is theoretically possible for us to end up with over 1,000,000 UDIs and demands for UN membership!

Its seems as though Pristina is getting a bit to full of itself.

This would be an unbelievably stupid move. If it were presented to the Security Council and rejected, as it will be, it would give states that have so far refused to recognise Kosovo an added incentive not to do so on the grounds that the UNSC had already rejected it. The fact that it was vetoed by Russia and China will be neither here nor there. The end result is that it did not pass and so countries taht have no recognised it thus far will have all the more reason not to recognise it in the future.

As for circumventing the UNSC, this is not possible. The UN Charter is explicit that membership is contingent on a UN General Assembly vote on the recommendation of the Security Council. No SC support, no membership.

But, hey, Pristina should go ahead and do it, if that's what it wants to do.

At the risk of being redundant to the posts below mine, I wish Fatmir all the luck in the world trying to maneuver around a final settlement with Belgrade, let alone the expected veto from Russia and China.

Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it.

Mr. Sejdiu try and try but you will not win a UN seat as long as Russia and China are there and Other big nations like India, Brazil, Argentina, Libya and others will NEVER be pressured by your MAMA America.

"P.S Don't count on China too much. They don't do politics like the ruskies. They might veto they might abstain. You never know.
(johny, 24 July 2010 18:19) "

I will bet you my last euro that the Chinese will defintely veto because of Tibet and Taiwan. Nothing is more sacred to the Chinese than territorial integrity and no one is more stubborn than them when it comes to this subject.

Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it.
(Top, 24 July 2010 13:54)

Top, Mike and Jim Albania has already gone through this. Albania was vetoed by Russia several times before it became a UN member. Keep in mind that its situation was worst. It had Greece, Serbia, Russia and all the other slavic nation against. Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, through Russia's might at that time wanted to split Albania amongst themselves and wipe it from the face of the earth. Despite all this adversity Albania gave it a try and was vetoed. A veto however doesn't mean the definite end. You simply try again. Albania eventually made it through with trial upon trial despite the opposition of Serbia, Greece and Montenegro. So on that experience a veto is expected if this is done within a year or so; but a veto is not the end of the road. Others have been vetoed and now are UN members.


P.S Don't count on China too much. They don't do politics like the ruskies. They might veto they might abstain. You never know.

The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.

While UN membership does not have any implication on the issue whether Kosovo is a state or not, I think Kosovo should still try, but only after making sure that a majority of the General Assembly will support it.

That way it will be able to clearly show that even the last argument of Serbia that the majority of the world is against Kosovo is not true.

That does not mean that this arguments is correct even now. But just in case somebody has doubts, the General Assembly can make it clear when it votes on Kosovo's request. So Kosovo should sumbit the request to create the opportunity for this vote.

Valon

Whilst China does have a history of abstaining, Russia does not. My advice therefore is to not hold your breath :) UN membership is but a pipe dream KosovO.

"The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44) "

wishful thinking on your part about China! They have every reason to veto -- Taiwan and Tibet. They are not so stupid as to sign their own death warrant.

OK, I guess the latest news about changing the rules of passing resolutions will be a majority vote by the end of this year. Sweet!! ;)

"I am not sure I know the procedure. How does it go? Does the UNSC have to explicitly approve a request? You know, at this point the UNSC is pretty much powerless with respect to Kosovo, divided as they are. It can neither say no, nor say yes. What if there is no need for explicit approval by UNSC? "
(KU, 24 July 2010 17:39)

I don't know, neither. I only know that Taiwan, a "country" which exist for more than 60 years now ('formed' after the WW2), is still considered their "province" by China, and it couldn't become an (independent) UN member state because of China's veto.

wishful thinking on your part about China! They have every reason to veto -- Taiwan and Tibet. They are not so stupid as to sign their own death warrant.
(lowe, 24 July 2010 22:36)

Due to their veto power, China has NO fears as to Tibet or Taiwan, so that would not be a motivating factor.

Hey Johnny Boy! The Chinese would definitely veto Kosovo's application in the UN. Since China have 3 rebellious provinces (Xinjiang, Xizang and Taiwan) and same with Russia with its Caucasus provinces.

"Please can you show me where in the UN Charter it says that you can become a UN member without Security Council authorization? Really, I wish people would get this right.
(Jim, 25 July 2010 18:28) "

Check out the "Uniting for Peace" resolution (No 377A, 1952) as a way of circumventing a SC veto.

As for China's resolute defense of Serbia's position, remember how it gave up when its mere appearance at the ICJ wasn't enough to ensure the outcome it wanted? China really doesn't like to lose, meaning if all the world - that is, a majority of the GA and the SC - are against it, it may decide not to play and simply abstain: you don't lose so much face that way. Even more likely is that China and Russia will quietly pressure Serbia to back down, so they won't be seen as having caved.

"Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it."
(Top, 24 July 2010 13:54)

I am not sure I know the procedure. How does it go? Does the UNSC have to explicitly approve a request? You know, at this point the UNSC is pretty much powerless with respect to Kosovo, divided as they are. It can neither say no, nor say yes. What if there is no need for explicit approval by UNSC? We just learned that (sometimes) if something is not explicitly forbidden, then it cannot be illegal. This after the event has happened. With joining the UN is a bit of a different thing though, it is more of a process, divided into many smaller events. It will be very interesting to assist to this next battle.

. Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44)
================

So much wishful thinking. Just the fact that China has done something that it never had in the past (present an oral argument in ICJ) is proof that China will veto. It is far too important for them not to. But let's say they won't you still have Russia to worry about. It only takes one.

Then there is EU. Again, it only takes one and Cyprus has vowed that even if Serbia is to recognise Kosovo they will not. How do you deal with this? All I keep reading from you Albanians is that you will get in but never how. How do you expect to get around those two vetos? Please, someone answer this seriously and not with they will with pressure.

"Due to their veto power, China has NO fears as to Tibet or Taiwan, so that would not be a motivating factor.

(pss, 25 July 2010 14:37)"

You are so dead wrong. The Chinese prided themselves in being consistent in their principles. How else do you think they are going to be able to claim to be the protector and champion of 3rd world countries?

If you don't believe me, just get Pristina to apply for UN membership tomorrow.

The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44)

Pressure then with what? With their mighty army that's bogged dsown in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Watch the US back down from the staring contest in the Korean peninsula.

THe Kosovo status quo remains.

To Peggy
Then there is EU. Again, it only takes one and Cyprus has vowed that even if Serbia is to recognise Kosovo they will not. How do you deal with this? All I keep reading from you Albanians is that you will get in but never how. How do you expect to get around those two vetos? Please, someone answer this seriously and not with they will with pressure.
(Peggy, 25 July 2010 02:25)

Very simple, really! In September Kosovo will apply to become a fully fledged UN member as per rules and regulations the UN General Assembly requires. Obviously there are two ways to become a UN member. The fastest way is through the UNSC. Clearly that is not going to happen due to the Russian veto. The other way is through the GA. Kosovo and its allies need in the vicinity of 120 UN member votes and this charade is over and done with.

Spunky - you are talking absolute nonsense. Please can you show me where in the UN Charter it says that you can become a UN member without Security Council authorization? Really, I wish people would get this right.

How can the US pressure china if they decided to call in the loans that the US owes china they would be sunk. Furthermore if they support N. Korea then it wll be even a bigger mess. So no pressuring China. Try again :)

You are absolutely right on this one. If Kosovo doesn't join the UN, the independence is worthless. You can't do nothing, except borrow money from IMF and World Bank. This is why K Albanians and those from Albania need to hold a referendum and vote on unity. Or Kosovo can be an autonomous province of Albania. That way Kosovo doesn't need approval from China or Russia.

60 years ago there was no UN at all, so there was no any independent nation, Switzerland joined UN in 2002?? so they were not state before. Please don't make a big deal out of UN stuff, we can make it without them! What really matters for Kosovo is EU due to free movement, economic and social interests!

@(Cnegi, 27 July 2010 01:16)

Well 60 years ago black people in America couldn't ride in front of the bus and now they have one for a president. It's amazing how the world keeps changing. Ok now back to the argument:

Technically Kosovo never existed so in order to exist Security Council of the UN has to agree upon its status. Whenever it does (with or without Serbias approval) next step for Kosovo would be EU integration and this is where, "free movement, economic and social interests" grow. Looks like China and Russia want to drag the Kosovo situation but U.S is in hurry to get the region EU-ized! So far Serbia is not cooperating and if it continues to do so U.S and EU countries will arrange for Kosovo to become part of Albania. Problem solved.
I don't think anything else can be worked out or "negotiated".
People keep criticizing US and other EU countries about their foreign policy. All of them were somehow, somewhen involved in a conflict or a war with each other. However, they have learned to put their differences aside, make peace, stick together and tell countries like Serbia what to do. Maybe Kosovo and Serbia should do the same.

"Hey Johnny Boy! The Chinese would definitely veto Kosovo's application in the UN. Since China have 3 rebellious provinces (Xinjiang, Xizang and Taiwan) and same with Russia with its Caucasus provinces."
(PRO-SERBIA, 25 July 2010 11:23)

Exactly! Two vetos. And you named them, the reasons why these countries oppose to recognize Kosovo! Some people wrongly thought it's because of the love for Serbia, or because of upholding international law.

You are absolutely right on this one. If Kosovo doesn't join the UN, the independence is worthless. You can't do nothing, except borrow money from IMF and World Bank. This is why K Albanians and those from Albania need to hold a referendum and vote on unity
========================

How can you unite with another country when you are not a recognised country? Status has to be solved before you can do anything. Albania would be in serious trouble accepting this unity. Do you honestly think that the US fought for this? They want you for themselves buddy. They are the only ones allowed to get use out of you. Don't forget that.

Wishful think by a boring and unatttractive separatist Albanian politician. What are you going to about Russia and China, in the UNSC, that will block your way every step. Do you, Fatmire, think that China will change it's position on illegal UDI's when it has it's historic situation with Taiwan, just to appease the Pristina Albanians? Get real, Fatmire. I don't think mamma America is going to be able to help you with this one.

Hahaha!!!! Submit a request, based on what? The ICJ verdict? All the verdict said was that your declaration was not illegal but would not be drawn on your secession. For those who know their history........the Roman emperor declared his horse to be a Roman senator. Draw the parallels yourselves.

Mr. Sejdiu try and try but you will not win a UN seat as long as Russia and China are there and Other big nations like India, Brazil, Argentina, Libya and others will NEVER be pressured by your MAMA America.

I have lsot count of the number of times pro-Albanian posters on B92 boasted about not needing UN membership .... obviously their Fatmir thinks differently. Fat chance with China and Russian in the UNSC!

With the ICJ having declared that proclamations of independence do not breach international law, well, then:

-- Strpce and north Kosovo can do a UDI
-- Eastern Slavonian Serbs can do a UDI
-- Macedonian Albanians can do a UDI
-- Tibet can do a UDI
-- Taiwan can do a UDI
-- Hispanics in US can do a UDI
-- African Americans in US can do a UDI
-- American Red Indians can do a UDI
-- Corsica can do a UDI
-- Greenlanders can do a UDI
-- Quebec can do a UDI
-- Ainu in Hokkaido, Japan can do a UDI
-- etc etc

ie. in practically every country you will have someone able to proclaim independence.

It is theoretically possible for us to end up with over 1,000,000 UDIs and demands for UN membership!

Russia will veto no matter what.

Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it.

At the risk of being redundant to the posts below mine, I wish Fatmir all the luck in the world trying to maneuver around a final settlement with Belgrade, let alone the expected veto from Russia and China.

While UN membership does not have any implication on the issue whether Kosovo is a state or not, I think Kosovo should still try, but only after making sure that a majority of the General Assembly will support it.

That way it will be able to clearly show that even the last argument of Serbia that the majority of the world is against Kosovo is not true.

That does not mean that this arguments is correct even now. But just in case somebody has doubts, the General Assembly can make it clear when it votes on Kosovo's request. So Kosovo should sumbit the request to create the opportunity for this vote.

OK, I guess the latest news about changing the rules of passing resolutions will be a majority vote by the end of this year. Sweet!! ;)

Its seems as though Pristina is getting a bit to full of itself.

This would be an unbelievably stupid move. If it were presented to the Security Council and rejected, as it will be, it would give states that have so far refused to recognise Kosovo an added incentive not to do so on the grounds that the UNSC had already rejected it. The fact that it was vetoed by Russia and China will be neither here nor there. The end result is that it did not pass and so countries taht have no recognised it thus far will have all the more reason not to recognise it in the future.

As for circumventing the UNSC, this is not possible. The UN Charter is explicit that membership is contingent on a UN General Assembly vote on the recommendation of the Security Council. No SC support, no membership.

But, hey, Pristina should go ahead and do it, if that's what it wants to do.

"Hey Johnny Boy! The Chinese would definitely veto Kosovo's application in the UN. Since China have 3 rebellious provinces (Xinjiang, Xizang and Taiwan) and same with Russia with its Caucasus provinces."
(PRO-SERBIA, 25 July 2010 11:23)

Exactly! Two vetos. And you named them, the reasons why these countries oppose to recognize Kosovo! Some people wrongly thought it's because of the love for Serbia, or because of upholding international law.

Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it.
(Top, 24 July 2010 13:54)

Top, Mike and Jim Albania has already gone through this. Albania was vetoed by Russia several times before it became a UN member. Keep in mind that its situation was worst. It had Greece, Serbia, Russia and all the other slavic nation against. Greece, Serbia, Montenegro, through Russia's might at that time wanted to split Albania amongst themselves and wipe it from the face of the earth. Despite all this adversity Albania gave it a try and was vetoed. A veto however doesn't mean the definite end. You simply try again. Albania eventually made it through with trial upon trial despite the opposition of Serbia, Greece and Montenegro. So on that experience a veto is expected if this is done within a year or so; but a veto is not the end of the road. Others have been vetoed and now are UN members.


P.S Don't count on China too much. They don't do politics like the ruskies. They might veto they might abstain. You never know.

The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.

. Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44)
================

So much wishful thinking. Just the fact that China has done something that it never had in the past (present an oral argument in ICJ) is proof that China will veto. It is far too important for them not to. But let's say they won't you still have Russia to worry about. It only takes one.

Then there is EU. Again, it only takes one and Cyprus has vowed that even if Serbia is to recognise Kosovo they will not. How do you deal with this? All I keep reading from you Albanians is that you will get in but never how. How do you expect to get around those two vetos? Please, someone answer this seriously and not with they will with pressure.

The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44)

Pressure then with what? With their mighty army that's bogged dsown in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Watch the US back down from the staring contest in the Korean peninsula.

THe Kosovo status quo remains.

Hey Johnny Boy! The Chinese would definitely veto Kosovo's application in the UN. Since China have 3 rebellious provinces (Xinjiang, Xizang and Taiwan) and same with Russia with its Caucasus provinces.

Spunky - you are talking absolute nonsense. Please can you show me where in the UN Charter it says that you can become a UN member without Security Council authorization? Really, I wish people would get this right.

Valon

Whilst China does have a history of abstaining, Russia does not. My advice therefore is to not hold your breath :) UN membership is but a pipe dream KosovO.

"P.S Don't count on China too much. They don't do politics like the ruskies. They might veto they might abstain. You never know.
(johny, 24 July 2010 18:19) "

I will bet you my last euro that the Chinese will defintely veto because of Tibet and Taiwan. Nothing is more sacred to the Chinese than territorial integrity and no one is more stubborn than them when it comes to this subject.

"The United States have pressured China to not veto resolutions that they have vetoed in the past (like sanctions on their allies). Although the west might not be able to get China and Russia to vote in favor of Kosovo joining the UN, they might reach a compromise to have them not use the veto.
(Valon, 24 July 2010 18:44) "

wishful thinking on your part about China! They have every reason to veto -- Taiwan and Tibet. They are not so stupid as to sign their own death warrant.

wishful thinking on your part about China! They have every reason to veto -- Taiwan and Tibet. They are not so stupid as to sign their own death warrant.
(lowe, 24 July 2010 22:36)

Due to their veto power, China has NO fears as to Tibet or Taiwan, so that would not be a motivating factor.

"Due to their veto power, China has NO fears as to Tibet or Taiwan, so that would not be a motivating factor.

(pss, 25 July 2010 14:37)"

You are so dead wrong. The Chinese prided themselves in being consistent in their principles. How else do you think they are going to be able to claim to be the protector and champion of 3rd world countries?

If you don't believe me, just get Pristina to apply for UN membership tomorrow.

To Peggy
Then there is EU. Again, it only takes one and Cyprus has vowed that even if Serbia is to recognise Kosovo they will not. How do you deal with this? All I keep reading from you Albanians is that you will get in but never how. How do you expect to get around those two vetos? Please, someone answer this seriously and not with they will with pressure.
(Peggy, 25 July 2010 02:25)

Very simple, really! In September Kosovo will apply to become a fully fledged UN member as per rules and regulations the UN General Assembly requires. Obviously there are two ways to become a UN member. The fastest way is through the UNSC. Clearly that is not going to happen due to the Russian veto. The other way is through the GA. Kosovo and its allies need in the vicinity of 120 UN member votes and this charade is over and done with.

"I am not sure I know the procedure. How does it go? Does the UNSC have to explicitly approve a request? You know, at this point the UNSC is pretty much powerless with respect to Kosovo, divided as they are. It can neither say no, nor say yes. What if there is no need for explicit approval by UNSC? "
(KU, 24 July 2010 17:39)

I don't know, neither. I only know that Taiwan, a "country" which exist for more than 60 years now ('formed' after the WW2), is still considered their "province" by China, and it couldn't become an (independent) UN member state because of China's veto.

"Please can you show me where in the UN Charter it says that you can become a UN member without Security Council authorization? Really, I wish people would get this right.
(Jim, 25 July 2010 18:28) "

Check out the "Uniting for Peace" resolution (No 377A, 1952) as a way of circumventing a SC veto.

As for China's resolute defense of Serbia's position, remember how it gave up when its mere appearance at the ICJ wasn't enough to ensure the outcome it wanted? China really doesn't like to lose, meaning if all the world - that is, a majority of the GA and the SC - are against it, it may decide not to play and simply abstain: you don't lose so much face that way. Even more likely is that China and Russia will quietly pressure Serbia to back down, so they won't be seen as having caved.

"Submitting a request is their legal right. As we learned, declaring an UDI is legal, too.

Both will have no effect, be sure China, Russia and other UN members will simply veto this request, and... game over. For me, it makes no sense to even try it."
(Top, 24 July 2010 13:54)

I am not sure I know the procedure. How does it go? Does the UNSC have to explicitly approve a request? You know, at this point the UNSC is pretty much powerless with respect to Kosovo, divided as they are. It can neither say no, nor say yes. What if there is no need for explicit approval by UNSC? We just learned that (sometimes) if something is not explicitly forbidden, then it cannot be illegal. This after the event has happened. With joining the UN is a bit of a different thing though, it is more of a process, divided into many smaller events. It will be very interesting to assist to this next battle.

How can the US pressure china if they decided to call in the loans that the US owes china they would be sunk. Furthermore if they support N. Korea then it wll be even a bigger mess. So no pressuring China. Try again :)

You are absolutely right on this one. If Kosovo doesn't join the UN, the independence is worthless. You can't do nothing, except borrow money from IMF and World Bank. This is why K Albanians and those from Albania need to hold a referendum and vote on unity. Or Kosovo can be an autonomous province of Albania. That way Kosovo doesn't need approval from China or Russia.

60 years ago there was no UN at all, so there was no any independent nation, Switzerland joined UN in 2002?? so they were not state before. Please don't make a big deal out of UN stuff, we can make it without them! What really matters for Kosovo is EU due to free movement, economic and social interests!

@(Cnegi, 27 July 2010 01:16)

Well 60 years ago black people in America couldn't ride in front of the bus and now they have one for a president. It's amazing how the world keeps changing. Ok now back to the argument:

Technically Kosovo never existed so in order to exist Security Council of the UN has to agree upon its status. Whenever it does (with or without Serbias approval) next step for Kosovo would be EU integration and this is where, "free movement, economic and social interests" grow. Looks like China and Russia want to drag the Kosovo situation but U.S is in hurry to get the region EU-ized! So far Serbia is not cooperating and if it continues to do so U.S and EU countries will arrange for Kosovo to become part of Albania. Problem solved.
I don't think anything else can be worked out or "negotiated".
People keep criticizing US and other EU countries about their foreign policy. All of them were somehow, somewhen involved in a conflict or a war with each other. However, they have learned to put their differences aside, make peace, stick together and tell countries like Serbia what to do. Maybe Kosovo and Serbia should do the same.

You are absolutely right on this one. If Kosovo doesn't join the UN, the independence is worthless. You can't do nothing, except borrow money from IMF and World Bank. This is why K Albanians and those from Albania need to hold a referendum and vote on unity
========================

How can you unite with another country when you are not a recognised country? Status has to be solved before you can do anything. Albania would be in serious trouble accepting this unity. Do you honestly think that the US fought for this? They want you for themselves buddy. They are the only ones allowed to get use out of you. Don't forget that.