"Belgrade won't infringe on rights in Kosovo"

why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose? and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why? im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda and because of this political propaganda this vidovdan day schould be banned from kosovo.

Maybe because Serbs resisted islamisation and Albanians and Bosnians didnt???

GOD BLESS SERBIA, SERBS AND VASOJEVICI

Mij, you can celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo, no one is denying you that opportunity and right. Vidovdan can be honored by Albanians too, there is law that says they can't.

we are going soon to celebrate battle of kosova albanians to

Dragan, Toronto,

just guessing what kind of land was Vojvodina during the Ottoman invasion/conquest? Take a map of Europe 1389 and compare it to the actual one. How far do they match?

We celebrate rich history of our people.
Happy Vidovdan to my people in Kosovo,keep on tradition that made us what we are today.

Genc,

You tell me? Please do. I was born in Vojlovica, which is the the Banat region of Vojvodina province, which is in the Republic of Serbia since 1918. Funny thing, there's actually a small Serbian Monastery in Vojlovica, dating back hundreds of years, right next to the Referinery (Rafinerija). Enlighten me please, about Hertelendyi, but also bear in mind that, I too have Slovakian and Hungarian elements in my family, next to my Serbian heritage.

Well, thats not entirely true.. a small group of Serbs decided to cower and accept Islamic rule on Christian land. Those Serbs today are known as Bosniaks.

........
CCCC
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Are you saying that you killed 8000 of your own in Srebrenica alone, just because they decided to change their religion some centuries ago?

Imagine what you would have done to K-Albanians, a foreign population that had nothing to do with you, if NATO did not come to their rescue.

Mijari,

During the Ottoman invasion/wars/conquest, Kosovo was Serbian land. Many soldiers fought under the christian banner against a threat, the vast majority Serbian, and on Serbian christian land dotted with hundreds and hundreds of churches. Hint: read a few books, take a history course, travel etc., but in the meantime learn to think before you type drivel.

"During the Ottoman invasion/wars/conquest, Kosovo was Serbian land. Many soldiers fought under the christian banner against a threat, the vast majority Serbian, and on Serbian christian land dotted with hundreds and hundreds of churches. Hint: read a few books, take a history course"

So history man, what was Belgrade when Kosovo was under the control of the Serbian empire (based, in fact, to its north)? Should it be returned to Hungary?

Dragan,

right on spot, since 1918!

the point is: by which criteria is Vojvodina today Serbian (I agree, today it's Serbian) and by which criteria Kosovo je Srbia? Do you see any contradiction here?

and it took the biggest military alliance in the world to keep us from taking everything else in the region. Our time will come again.


CCCC
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Why do you want to take everything else in the region? Everything else means everything that isn't yours. So, the biggest military alliance was right.

If someone's time will come again, then everyone's time will come again. So simple is that!

Remember the Alamo...

It's a defeat that most American s are quite familiar with.

Serbs celebrate this day as a victory for Christans who refused to submit to Ottoman Islamic rule. And suffer we did at the hands of our muslim masters alongside our Greek brothers. Many converted...and those converts we call Bosniaks.

So..what our albanians choose to ignore is that even if military defeat...we win.

mijari..

Serbs celebrate it because despite the defeat, we continued to preserve our Christian identity. Well, thats not entirely true.. a small group of Serbs decided to cower and accept Islamic rule on Christian land. Those Serbs today are known as Bosniaks.

So yes, it wasn't just Serbs that battled the Ottomons at the battle of 1389, but it was just the Serbs who continuted to perserve our identity and not succumb and kiss Turkish feet after the war.

Happy Vidovdan to everyone-Kosovo is Serbia. We are still the biggest ethnic group in the region, and it took the biggest military alliance in the world to keep us from taking everything else in the region. Our time will come again.


CCCC

Are you saying that you killed 8000 of your own in Srebrenica alone, just because they decided to change their religion some centuries ago?

Imagine what you would have done to K-Albanians, a foreign population that had nothing to do with you, if NATO did not come to their rescue.
(miri, 28 June 2010 21:30)
====================

The only way you think you can win an argument is to distort what the other person has said.
You know very well that's not why Serbs killed Muslims. You know very well that the first casualty in Bosnia was a Serb and the Muslims started the killing. Serbs had no choice but to defend their families and land.

Now please go and get some real facts to present here and please don't become a troll like some of your brothers. It's really ugly.

DimLuc,

Should it be returned? You tell me.
Should Singapore join Malaysia? How about Panama rejoining Colombia. Northern Epirus uniting with Greece, California annexed to Mexico etc.
Then again, should some German cities be given to Turkey? Given that some towns/cities have a had a huge demographic shift in recent years. Should Brussels be the first Islamic city or should a French city, or say London? by European standards, somewhere within the next twenty years, there will be a huge shift in the said locations (even though, I'm sure its already there). You tell me, you seem to be have alot of time under your hands to type away...

why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose? and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why? im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda and because of this political propaganda this vidovdan day schould be banned from kosovo.
(mijari, 28 June 2010 12:44)

You have several questions and a wrong + politically incorrect + racist conclusion, however you obviously do not know the answers.

Here they are.

#1. Q: "why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose?"
A: because they did not lose it. It was a clear Serbian victory.

#2: Q: "and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why?"
A: simply because the Kosovo Legend is part of Serbian cultural heritage. "Kosovo Legend" is based on real facts (Kosovo battle of 1389) but it is NOT the real fact. We have to distinguish between what really happened on that day (and coming months) in 1389 and what do the bards sing. One is historical fact, the other is "Kosovo Legend". "Kosovo Legend" is part of Serbian but not that much of Bosnian or Albanian folklore.

#3: Q: "im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda"
A: It's not. Rarely, questions can be ill-spirited, this one was. Otherwise read above.

-------------

Serbs celebrate it because despite the defeat, we continued to preserve our Christian identity.
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Incorrect. Serbs would not celebrate it if it wouldn't be a victory. For hundreds of years every historian regarded 1389 as victory of Serbs. The "defeat" is part of the Kosovo Legend circle (like tsar's own choice between mortal kingdom versus heavenly kingdom, etc-etc.). That is legend. The truth: it was a decisive Serbian victory. The Turks were happy to drag their buts away.

What happened after several weeks and when Serbia and the entire Balkan was lost - it was decided not on the battle field, but by Widow-queen Militsa. Turks were beaten and in disarray. Serbs were victorious but weakened losing a lot of blood during the battle. So were Bosnians.

In the middle of that who comes? The Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund of Luxemburg,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

In September of 1389 he attacked Serbia and Bosnia from behind. At that time he did look as a much more formidable enemy than the Turks. So widow-queen Militsa asked Bayazit's help to kick the new invader out. So they did. But Serbs and Bosnians paid a very expensive price for that.

So I am very-very sorry to tell: not tsar Lazar and King Tvrtko lost Serbia and Bosnia to Turks in Summer of 1389. Of course, Kastrioti was really in hopeless situation later on. Who was probably single-handidly to blame was Sigismund of Luxemburg.

If you look at the time table this is really easy to see. Excuses:

- he was mostly German
- 1389 he was only 21 year old, totally inexperienced about Turks, well experienced how to kill own wife and her mom.
- 1389 he was concerned about making the life of Bosnian Tvrtko misearable, about how to kill his own wife (how nice!) and killing his step-mom (that he succeed!).

The problem with Bosnians and Serbs was that Tvrtko was related to soon-to-be-probably-killed Hungarian queen and her killed (1387) mom, the perpetrator was Sigismund. Usually it's a sign of trouble. And trouble came.

Deep apologies to Serbs and to large degrees to Albanians and Bosnians: the Hungarian king goofed up the entire Kosovo battle thing.

-------------

Question I can't answer: why Sigismund is not displayed as a major villain? Let's see his deeds...

1387: killing mother-in-law
1389: attacking Bosnia and Serbia from behind, negating the Kosovo victory, de-facto opening the entire Balkan to Turks
1395: killing his own wife and unborn son (suspicious "accident")
1408: massacre of Croats and Bosnians, 200 most famous families were killed, most families famous for victories against Turks
1410: attacking Poland from the back, leading a "Crusade" agains... catholic Poles.
1415: coward, underhanded act of executing Jan Hus, begin of Husite Wars.

My verdict: that guy was mean, stupid, underhanded, caused unheard suffering in Czechia, Croatia, Bosnia, killed Serbian state, killed independence of little Montenegrin and Albanian rulers. Against Husites was a major loser, so was he against Poles and Turks. Two thumbs down, one of the worst kings of Hungary.

Sorry Genc,

Lets backtrack abit, first time it was Serbian Vojvodina was 1848-1849 during the Hapsburg rule. This was after the Sremski Karlovac revolt and proclamation...

Genc,

Kosovo criteria = facts, history, culture, traditions, many churches, many graves, many memories etc.
After the end of WW1, AandH was partitioned into many areas, including Vojvodina finally joining Serbia and Jugoslavija..
In 1999, the will of a minority in a sovereign nation was heeded to, against the will of the majority. The NATO alliance then bombed a nation for months, because it didn't accept its dictact. Two years ago, many of the same names told the Pristina-clan to declare an illegal act, against all legal norms. Enjoy your coffee, but don't burn your fingers!

Ok Dragan, let's grasp for the straws and go back to 1848-49, a period of political turmoil overall in Europe. Vojvodina had reached a Serbian majority by then, but the border changed only in 1918 with Vojvodina entering the Serb-Croat-Slovene Kingdom. (By analogy the Kosovo reppresentants declared their will to be included in the Albanian State when its independence was declared, on 28th November 1912).

But the core of my question was: By which criteria Vojvodina is Serbian today (which I do not dispute) and by which criteria Kosovo is Serbia? (if you think so?)

why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose? and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why? im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda and because of this political propaganda this vidovdan day schould be banned from kosovo.

Maybe because Serbs resisted islamisation and Albanians and Bosnians didnt???

GOD BLESS SERBIA, SERBS AND VASOJEVICI

Mijari,

During the Ottoman invasion/wars/conquest, Kosovo was Serbian land. Many soldiers fought under the christian banner against a threat, the vast majority Serbian, and on Serbian christian land dotted with hundreds and hundreds of churches. Hint: read a few books, take a history course, travel etc., but in the meantime learn to think before you type drivel.

We celebrate rich history of our people.
Happy Vidovdan to my people in Kosovo,keep on tradition that made us what we are today.

we are going soon to celebrate battle of kosova albanians to

mijari..

Serbs celebrate it because despite the defeat, we continued to preserve our Christian identity. Well, thats not entirely true.. a small group of Serbs decided to cower and accept Islamic rule on Christian land. Those Serbs today are known as Bosniaks.

So yes, it wasn't just Serbs that battled the Ottomons at the battle of 1389, but it was just the Serbs who continuted to perserve our identity and not succumb and kiss Turkish feet after the war.

Happy Vidovdan to everyone-Kosovo is Serbia. We are still the biggest ethnic group in the region, and it took the biggest military alliance in the world to keep us from taking everything else in the region. Our time will come again.


CCCC

Are you saying that you killed 8000 of your own in Srebrenica alone, just because they decided to change their religion some centuries ago?

Imagine what you would have done to K-Albanians, a foreign population that had nothing to do with you, if NATO did not come to their rescue.
(miri, 28 June 2010 21:30)
====================

The only way you think you can win an argument is to distort what the other person has said.
You know very well that's not why Serbs killed Muslims. You know very well that the first casualty in Bosnia was a Serb and the Muslims started the killing. Serbs had no choice but to defend their families and land.

Now please go and get some real facts to present here and please don't become a troll like some of your brothers. It's really ugly.

Mij, you can celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo, no one is denying you that opportunity and right. Vidovdan can be honored by Albanians too, there is law that says they can't.

Genc,

You tell me? Please do. I was born in Vojlovica, which is the the Banat region of Vojvodina province, which is in the Republic of Serbia since 1918. Funny thing, there's actually a small Serbian Monastery in Vojlovica, dating back hundreds of years, right next to the Referinery (Rafinerija). Enlighten me please, about Hertelendyi, but also bear in mind that, I too have Slovakian and Hungarian elements in my family, next to my Serbian heritage.

Dragan, Toronto,

just guessing what kind of land was Vojvodina during the Ottoman invasion/conquest? Take a map of Europe 1389 and compare it to the actual one. How far do they match?

"During the Ottoman invasion/wars/conquest, Kosovo was Serbian land. Many soldiers fought under the christian banner against a threat, the vast majority Serbian, and on Serbian christian land dotted with hundreds and hundreds of churches. Hint: read a few books, take a history course"

So history man, what was Belgrade when Kosovo was under the control of the Serbian empire (based, in fact, to its north)? Should it be returned to Hungary?

Remember the Alamo...

It's a defeat that most American s are quite familiar with.

Serbs celebrate this day as a victory for Christans who refused to submit to Ottoman Islamic rule. And suffer we did at the hands of our muslim masters alongside our Greek brothers. Many converted...and those converts we call Bosniaks.

So..what our albanians choose to ignore is that even if military defeat...we win.

Well, thats not entirely true.. a small group of Serbs decided to cower and accept Islamic rule on Christian land. Those Serbs today are known as Bosniaks.

........
CCCC
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Are you saying that you killed 8000 of your own in Srebrenica alone, just because they decided to change their religion some centuries ago?

Imagine what you would have done to K-Albanians, a foreign population that had nothing to do with you, if NATO did not come to their rescue.

Dragan,

right on spot, since 1918!

the point is: by which criteria is Vojvodina today Serbian (I agree, today it's Serbian) and by which criteria Kosovo je Srbia? Do you see any contradiction here?

and it took the biggest military alliance in the world to keep us from taking everything else in the region. Our time will come again.


CCCC
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Why do you want to take everything else in the region? Everything else means everything that isn't yours. So, the biggest military alliance was right.

If someone's time will come again, then everyone's time will come again. So simple is that!

DimLuc,

Should it be returned? You tell me.
Should Singapore join Malaysia? How about Panama rejoining Colombia. Northern Epirus uniting with Greece, California annexed to Mexico etc.
Then again, should some German cities be given to Turkey? Given that some towns/cities have a had a huge demographic shift in recent years. Should Brussels be the first Islamic city or should a French city, or say London? by European standards, somewhere within the next twenty years, there will be a huge shift in the said locations (even though, I'm sure its already there). You tell me, you seem to be have alot of time under your hands to type away...

why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose? and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why? im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda and because of this political propaganda this vidovdan day schould be banned from kosovo.
(mijari, 28 June 2010 12:44)

You have several questions and a wrong + politically incorrect + racist conclusion, however you obviously do not know the answers.

Here they are.

#1. Q: "why only serbs celebrate a battle that they have lose?"
A: because they did not lose it. It was a clear Serbian victory.

#2: Q: "and in the battle of 1389 fought not only serbs but also bosnians and albanians against the ottomans but only serbs celebrate it why?"
A: simply because the Kosovo Legend is part of Serbian cultural heritage. "Kosovo Legend" is based on real facts (Kosovo battle of 1389) but it is NOT the real fact. We have to distinguish between what really happened on that day (and coming months) in 1389 and what do the bards sing. One is historical fact, the other is "Kosovo Legend". "Kosovo Legend" is part of Serbian but not that much of Bosnian or Albanian folklore.

#3: Q: "im sure this is only a trick by serbs to spread political propaganda"
A: It's not. Rarely, questions can be ill-spirited, this one was. Otherwise read above.

-------------

Serbs celebrate it because despite the defeat, we continued to preserve our Christian identity.
(Nikola, 28 June 2010 20:22)

Incorrect. Serbs would not celebrate it if it wouldn't be a victory. For hundreds of years every historian regarded 1389 as victory of Serbs. The "defeat" is part of the Kosovo Legend circle (like tsar's own choice between mortal kingdom versus heavenly kingdom, etc-etc.). That is legend. The truth: it was a decisive Serbian victory. The Turks were happy to drag their buts away.

What happened after several weeks and when Serbia and the entire Balkan was lost - it was decided not on the battle field, but by Widow-queen Militsa. Turks were beaten and in disarray. Serbs were victorious but weakened losing a lot of blood during the battle. So were Bosnians.

In the middle of that who comes? The Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund of Luxemburg,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

In September of 1389 he attacked Serbia and Bosnia from behind. At that time he did look as a much more formidable enemy than the Turks. So widow-queen Militsa asked Bayazit's help to kick the new invader out. So they did. But Serbs and Bosnians paid a very expensive price for that.

So I am very-very sorry to tell: not tsar Lazar and King Tvrtko lost Serbia and Bosnia to Turks in Summer of 1389. Of course, Kastrioti was really in hopeless situation later on. Who was probably single-handidly to blame was Sigismund of Luxemburg.

If you look at the time table this is really easy to see. Excuses:

- he was mostly German
- 1389 he was only 21 year old, totally inexperienced about Turks, well experienced how to kill own wife and her mom.
- 1389 he was concerned about making the life of Bosnian Tvrtko misearable, about how to kill his own wife (how nice!) and killing his step-mom (that he succeed!).

The problem with Bosnians and Serbs was that Tvrtko was related to soon-to-be-probably-killed Hungarian queen and her killed (1387) mom, the perpetrator was Sigismund. Usually it's a sign of trouble. And trouble came.

Deep apologies to Serbs and to large degrees to Albanians and Bosnians: the Hungarian king goofed up the entire Kosovo battle thing.

-------------

Question I can't answer: why Sigismund is not displayed as a major villain? Let's see his deeds...

1387: killing mother-in-law
1389: attacking Bosnia and Serbia from behind, negating the Kosovo victory, de-facto opening the entire Balkan to Turks
1395: killing his own wife and unborn son (suspicious "accident")
1408: massacre of Croats and Bosnians, 200 most famous families were killed, most families famous for victories against Turks
1410: attacking Poland from the back, leading a "Crusade" agains... catholic Poles.
1415: coward, underhanded act of executing Jan Hus, begin of Husite Wars.

My verdict: that guy was mean, stupid, underhanded, caused unheard suffering in Czechia, Croatia, Bosnia, killed Serbian state, killed independence of little Montenegrin and Albanian rulers. Against Husites was a major loser, so was he against Poles and Turks. Two thumbs down, one of the worst kings of Hungary.

Genc,

Kosovo criteria = facts, history, culture, traditions, many churches, many graves, many memories etc.
After the end of WW1, AandH was partitioned into many areas, including Vojvodina finally joining Serbia and Jugoslavija..
In 1999, the will of a minority in a sovereign nation was heeded to, against the will of the majority. The NATO alliance then bombed a nation for months, because it didn't accept its dictact. Two years ago, many of the same names told the Pristina-clan to declare an illegal act, against all legal norms. Enjoy your coffee, but don't burn your fingers!

Sorry Genc,

Lets backtrack abit, first time it was Serbian Vojvodina was 1848-1849 during the Hapsburg rule. This was after the Sremski Karlovac revolt and proclamation...

Ok Dragan, let's grasp for the straws and go back to 1848-49, a period of political turmoil overall in Europe. Vojvodina had reached a Serbian majority by then, but the border changed only in 1918 with Vojvodina entering the Serb-Croat-Slovene Kingdom. (By analogy the Kosovo reppresentants declared their will to be included in the Albanian State when its independence was declared, on 28th November 1912).

But the core of my question was: By which criteria Vojvodina is Serbian today (which I do not dispute) and by which criteria Kosovo is Serbia? (if you think so?)