The massive graves of Kosovo albanians found in Serbia shortly after the war, those found recently (in Raska), show if these bombardings were right or not.
Yes, and they should have concentrated in the Drenica region and border with Albania.
(Jason, 10 June 2010 15:10)
Jason
Please obey to your superiors. I do not believe they will ever ask you what they should or should not do. I can see how desperate you are when B92 is the only way to address your sugestions considering that you are an "international"
The NATO campaign was essentially a campaign to stop Milosevic and his policies. Predictably, it failed its objective as it provided a rallying call for all Serbs. Prior to the bombing, the people of Serbia were massively dissatisfied with Milosevic. They were already protesting at his bankrupting of the economy, the influence of gangsterism and criminality. They (or at least those with access to non nationalist media) could see the damage that Milosevic was doing to the reputation of Serbia throughout the world. Thanks to Milosevic, Serbia was losing friends, even it’s traditionally close friends. All NATO planes needed permission from neighbouring countries to overfly and all, including orthodox brother Greece, provided that permission. Russia failed to avert the threats of bombing (remember there was weeks of notice before the first bomb dropped). All of this drove the citizens of Serbia towards Milosevic. This, in turn, probably saved Milosevic and the anti Milosevic movement was left high and dry! NATO bombing brought Serbs together against a common enemy and to this day, a sense that the world is against Serbia remains. Some have speculated that Milosevic himself predicted this outcome and, for this reason, choose not to intervene in Kosovo.
So while I hate the fact the Serbia was bombed, I hate even more that Milosevic was able to prevent it but probably welcomed it for his own devious purpose – to cling on to power.
How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
(Gladko, 10 June 2010 21:48)
===================
The same way the could've known that those schools were used by civilians.
They ran out of military targets in a couple of days. The rest was civilians targeting and you know it.
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
(JP, 11 June 2010 06:49)
Very true that the majority of Americans(that marry local civilians) are married to Albanians and I believe their judgment is just as skewed. But I disagree that the ones marrying Serbs are more open minded-still thinking with the same part of the body.
What you say though supports my view that Staff has no idea what he is talking about. You are not going to walk onto Bondsteel and find people saying that "we bombed the wrong people"
Be a bit more serious please
(szemi, 11 June 2010 12:02)
Szemi,
If I would be an IDF insider, I would tell more. (Un)fortunately I am not. Besides, IDF insiders rarely "sing". So wiki what we have for now. And I wasn't the fly (or a "bolha" = flea) on the wall in IDF HQ as they discussed.
What is your source? Don't tell me, a Bollah bolka bolha on the wall in that city of ash-Shām.
(Ataman, 11 June 2010 01:03)
Wikipedia what a reliable source Haha.
I rather belive my eyes than your source and saw something else.Be a bit more serious please
"Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)"
You're funny szemi. I guess you didn't notice that this current proud Turkish government was the very first to recognise Kosova (and would have done so regardless of what the US wanted), while the terrorist regime in Tel Aviv strongly backs Serbian "integrity" and has strongly resisted any US pressure to recognise, aware of the obvious parallel between between Serbian oppression of Kosova and Israel's oppression of Palestine.
Anyway, the world moves in complicated ways, and black and white scenarios rarely fit. NATO's bombing fromj thousands of feet in the air did terrorise thousands of innocent Serbs and was unsupportable despite the Serbian army's own terrorising of the Albanians. NATO did not save Albanian lives like someone said, after it started its bombing the Serbian ethnic cleansing and terror picked up massively.
What a shameful period on all sides. RIP all the Serb and Albanian victims of both NATO and Milosevic in 1999.
Serbia should hope this does not hapen again, because as I remember Russia did nothing to help them then and because their relationship with US, EU and NATO is so importantto them they will not help them in the future either - apart from their usual diplomatic blubbering.
Having said that, I wonder if Serbia has any (powerful) friends left? Hmmm ...
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
(pss, 10 June 2010 20:23)
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)
LOL - that your bollah did what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
"On a comparison done by the armor corps newsletter it was shown that the average number of crewmen killed per tank penetrated was reduced from 2 during the Yom Kippur War to 1.5 during the 1982 Lebanon War to 1 during the 2006 Lebanon War proving how, even in the face of the improvement in anti-tank weaponry, the Merkava Mark IV provides better protection to its crew."
So how many Merkava tanks were lost?
From same source:
"Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, penetrating armor in five Merkava Mark IV tanks and killing 10."
"All but two Merkava Mark IV tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the Merkava Mark IV's performance, and attributed problems to insufficient training before the war"
Summary: 10 army personal was killed (this is indeed a lot for Israel) and two tanks permanently lost.
Do you have any other document showing a more catastrophic scenario?
If Turks did cancel Merkava Mark IV orders - that's good (for now), they have less firepower than. Unfortunately they will get some good tanks from somewhere anyway, it's just question of time.
I am very satisfied with the Turkish-Israeli ties being at lowest at the moment. The only form I want to see that turkey is with filling, cut and sliced for the Thanksgiving, preferably slices given to Armenia, Georgia, Kurdistan, Syria, Greece, Bulgaria - everyone has to have a little feast on Thanksgiving.
Otherwise not sure why the celebration of these insane bollahs. They are not any better than Chechen gangsters, KLA and Izetbegovic. And of course during the Balkan conflict these bollah did support what side? I am somehow thinking, not Serbs at all.
Let's never forget the bravery of the Serbian soldiers who repelled KLA terrorists (NATO's ground troops) from ever crossing into Serbia, despite repeated attempts from the aggressors.
Because of this complete failure of NATO, they were forced to sign UNSC Resolution 1244, which guarantees that Kosovo is Serbia, and still stands today. Hats off to all the branve Serbian soldiers who made this possible. You will be heroes for eternity!
Cheers!!
Clinton is a true hero, he saved many kosovo albanian lives from the evil oppression of serbians. Clinton will go down as one of the best American president, god bless him and his family, and all of Kosovo albanians.
. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
(Rote, 10 June 2010 19:54)
Indeed everything seems to flow in that direction.The current turkish israeli conflict is just a whipped cream on the cake.Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
Ratko, I don't share your opinion that NATO deliberately targeted civillians as the Serbs did for instance in Cuska and others villages in Kosovo. I think that many Serbs thought that NATO would not target them if they traveled in a train. For ex., How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so
Staff
If ever you do have the opportunity to visit Bondsteel, I can assure you that this is not what you will find.
American soldiers that have served in Kosovo are proud of what they have done. The shame is that they "had" to react to save the people of Kosovo. But an unconditional surrender should have been the only way to end the conflict.
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
The saying that a lot of men do not allow their brains to do their thinking is very true.
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
(Staff, 10 June 2010 15:43)
Believe me Diana, nothing could be further than the truth. And if you believe Staff could possibly be anything more than "janitorial staff" heaven help you.
I have to remind you that Mr.Yeltsyn is dead , Mr.Chernomirdin is retired and Mr.Kozirev is working in his beloved America for a local company. So next time it may as well be the last NATO bombings in their short and disgusting history. We Russians still believe that they bombed us as well. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
Whenever I am reminded of the cowardly military actions of the NATO (Clinton and Co.), and the murder of innocent civilians, I am sickened to my stomach. Western troops could have been brought in to stop the civil unrest in Kosovo between the KLA and the VS. Clinton, of course, took the cowards way and sent high-flying bombers to wreck havoc on the former Yugoslavia and Kosovo, not caring too much about the human carnage left behind, both Serbian and Albanian. He (Clinton) did not dare lose one American troop, it would have been political suicide. He will, in my opinion, go down as one of the most dispicable human beings in American history. And where have these murderous actions of Clinton brought the Balkans - pretty much nowhere. Kosovo is still unsettled and far from it. Bosnia is still unsettled, and far from it. Macedonia is still unsettled, and far from it. Montenegro, with Dukanovic trying to save his skin, has become America's lapdog, and embarrassed the once proud Montenegren people. Croatia is a Germany wanna be, so Berlin will take it under its wing. In conclusion, if there is a just God, Clinton will be on the receiving end of his "humanitarian intervention" and own medicine, for eternity.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
RE: General Lazervic is at peace!
General Lazerevic met with Patrichiate Pavle after the Hague indictment for his opinion on turning himself in. Patrichiate Pavle made it clear it was a choice based on his conscious, he was clearly not guilty of any crimes but was compelled to answer for his role. For the sake of the mounting propoganda against Serbia, he chose to turn himself in.
The Kosovo heroes include General Pavkovic, Sretan Lukic, Nikola Sainovic, General Ojdanic and the many brave soldiers who defended Serbian and Albanian civilians alike bravely from the illegal invasion of NATO as well as the KLA terrorists.
They are true heroes wrongly convicted by the Hague Tribunal kangaroo show trial but not forgotten.
We will never forget people we lost, and we will always be eternaly grateful to brave man who stood to protect integrity of our nation.
We did rise up to be bigger and better nation amid all the distruction and propaganda.
God bless our Serbian martyrs who died as soldiers defending Kosovo.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
They still are in contact with a lot of their comrade veterans from the VJ,MUP and Special police units and have befrinded them,they dream about liberating this holy Serbian land of foreign occupation.
And this day WILL come,sooner or later.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame...(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Serbia should take responsibility for there actions it was a hard decision for the west until they just had enough of your politicians playing with diplomatic words while Albanians and Serbs were suffering, at some point in the future they will say sorry as they keep digging up Albanian bodies hidden in Serbia and both countries find closure for the respective communities
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
Let's never forget the bravery of the Serbian soldiers who repelled KLA terrorists (NATO's ground troops) from ever crossing into Serbia, despite repeated attempts from the aggressors.
Because of this complete failure of NATO, they were forced to sign UNSC Resolution 1244, which guarantees that Kosovo is Serbia, and still stands today. Hats off to all the branve Serbian soldiers who made this possible. You will be heroes for eternity!
Cheers!!
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame...(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
God bless our Serbian martyrs who died as soldiers defending Kosovo.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
They still are in contact with a lot of their comrade veterans from the VJ,MUP and Special police units and have befrinded them,they dream about liberating this holy Serbian land of foreign occupation.
And this day WILL come,sooner or later.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Serbia should take responsibility for there actions it was a hard decision for the west until they just had enough of your politicians playing with diplomatic words while Albanians and Serbs were suffering, at some point in the future they will say sorry as they keep digging up Albanian bodies hidden in Serbia and both countries find closure for the respective communities
We will never forget people we lost, and we will always be eternaly grateful to brave man who stood to protect integrity of our nation.
We did rise up to be bigger and better nation amid all the distruction and propaganda.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
RE: General Lazervic is at peace!
General Lazerevic met with Patrichiate Pavle after the Hague indictment for his opinion on turning himself in. Patrichiate Pavle made it clear it was a choice based on his conscious, he was clearly not guilty of any crimes but was compelled to answer for his role. For the sake of the mounting propoganda against Serbia, he chose to turn himself in.
The Kosovo heroes include General Pavkovic, Sretan Lukic, Nikola Sainovic, General Ojdanic and the many brave soldiers who defended Serbian and Albanian civilians alike bravely from the illegal invasion of NATO as well as the KLA terrorists.
They are true heroes wrongly convicted by the Hague Tribunal kangaroo show trial but not forgotten.
I have to remind you that Mr.Yeltsyn is dead , Mr.Chernomirdin is retired and Mr.Kozirev is working in his beloved America for a local company. So next time it may as well be the last NATO bombings in their short and disgusting history. We Russians still believe that they bombed us as well. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
(pss, 10 June 2010 20:23)
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
Whenever I am reminded of the cowardly military actions of the NATO (Clinton and Co.), and the murder of innocent civilians, I am sickened to my stomach. Western troops could have been brought in to stop the civil unrest in Kosovo between the KLA and the VS. Clinton, of course, took the cowards way and sent high-flying bombers to wreck havoc on the former Yugoslavia and Kosovo, not caring too much about the human carnage left behind, both Serbian and Albanian. He (Clinton) did not dare lose one American troop, it would have been political suicide. He will, in my opinion, go down as one of the most dispicable human beings in American history. And where have these murderous actions of Clinton brought the Balkans - pretty much nowhere. Kosovo is still unsettled and far from it. Bosnia is still unsettled, and far from it. Macedonia is still unsettled, and far from it. Montenegro, with Dukanovic trying to save his skin, has become America's lapdog, and embarrassed the once proud Montenegren people. Croatia is a Germany wanna be, so Berlin will take it under its wing. In conclusion, if there is a just God, Clinton will be on the receiving end of his "humanitarian intervention" and own medicine, for eternity.
Ratko, I don't share your opinion that NATO deliberately targeted civillians as the Serbs did for instance in Cuska and others villages in Kosovo. I think that many Serbs thought that NATO would not target them if they traveled in a train. For ex., How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
Clinton is a true hero, he saved many kosovo albanian lives from the evil oppression of serbians. Clinton will go down as one of the best American president, god bless him and his family, and all of Kosovo albanians.
. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
(Rote, 10 June 2010 19:54)
Indeed everything seems to flow in that direction.The current turkish israeli conflict is just a whipped cream on the cake.Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
(Staff, 10 June 2010 15:43)
Believe me Diana, nothing could be further than the truth. And if you believe Staff could possibly be anything more than "janitorial staff" heaven help you.
(Ataman, 11 June 2010 01:03)
Wikipedia what a reliable source Haha.
I rather belive my eyes than your source and saw something else.Be a bit more serious please
How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
(Gladko, 10 June 2010 21:48)
===================
The same way the could've known that those schools were used by civilians.
They ran out of military targets in a couple of days. The rest was civilians targeting and you know it.
Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)
LOL - that your bollah did what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
"On a comparison done by the armor corps newsletter it was shown that the average number of crewmen killed per tank penetrated was reduced from 2 during the Yom Kippur War to 1.5 during the 1982 Lebanon War to 1 during the 2006 Lebanon War proving how, even in the face of the improvement in anti-tank weaponry, the Merkava Mark IV provides better protection to its crew."
So how many Merkava tanks were lost?
From same source:
"Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, penetrating armor in five Merkava Mark IV tanks and killing 10."
"All but two Merkava Mark IV tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the Merkava Mark IV's performance, and attributed problems to insufficient training before the war"
Summary: 10 army personal was killed (this is indeed a lot for Israel) and two tanks permanently lost.
Do you have any other document showing a more catastrophic scenario?
If Turks did cancel Merkava Mark IV orders - that's good (for now), they have less firepower than. Unfortunately they will get some good tanks from somewhere anyway, it's just question of time.
I am very satisfied with the Turkish-Israeli ties being at lowest at the moment. The only form I want to see that turkey is with filling, cut and sliced for the Thanksgiving, preferably slices given to Armenia, Georgia, Kurdistan, Syria, Greece, Bulgaria - everyone has to have a little feast on Thanksgiving.
Otherwise not sure why the celebration of these insane bollahs. They are not any better than Chechen gangsters, KLA and Izetbegovic. And of course during the Balkan conflict these bollah did support what side? I am somehow thinking, not Serbs at all.
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so
Staff
If ever you do have the opportunity to visit Bondsteel, I can assure you that this is not what you will find.
American soldiers that have served in Kosovo are proud of what they have done. The shame is that they "had" to react to save the people of Kosovo. But an unconditional surrender should have been the only way to end the conflict.
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
The saying that a lot of men do not allow their brains to do their thinking is very true.
"Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)"
You're funny szemi. I guess you didn't notice that this current proud Turkish government was the very first to recognise Kosova (and would have done so regardless of what the US wanted), while the terrorist regime in Tel Aviv strongly backs Serbian "integrity" and has strongly resisted any US pressure to recognise, aware of the obvious parallel between between Serbian oppression of Kosova and Israel's oppression of Palestine.
Anyway, the world moves in complicated ways, and black and white scenarios rarely fit. NATO's bombing fromj thousands of feet in the air did terrorise thousands of innocent Serbs and was unsupportable despite the Serbian army's own terrorising of the Albanians. NATO did not save Albanian lives like someone said, after it started its bombing the Serbian ethnic cleansing and terror picked up massively.
What a shameful period on all sides. RIP all the Serb and Albanian victims of both NATO and Milosevic in 1999.
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
(JP, 11 June 2010 06:49)
Very true that the majority of Americans(that marry local civilians) are married to Albanians and I believe their judgment is just as skewed. But I disagree that the ones marrying Serbs are more open minded-still thinking with the same part of the body.
What you say though supports my view that Staff has no idea what he is talking about. You are not going to walk onto Bondsteel and find people saying that "we bombed the wrong people"
Serbia should hope this does not hapen again, because as I remember Russia did nothing to help them then and because their relationship with US, EU and NATO is so importantto them they will not help them in the future either - apart from their usual diplomatic blubbering.
Having said that, I wonder if Serbia has any (powerful) friends left? Hmmm ...
The NATO campaign was essentially a campaign to stop Milosevic and his policies. Predictably, it failed its objective as it provided a rallying call for all Serbs. Prior to the bombing, the people of Serbia were massively dissatisfied with Milosevic. They were already protesting at his bankrupting of the economy, the influence of gangsterism and criminality. They (or at least those with access to non nationalist media) could see the damage that Milosevic was doing to the reputation of Serbia throughout the world. Thanks to Milosevic, Serbia was losing friends, even it’s traditionally close friends. All NATO planes needed permission from neighbouring countries to overfly and all, including orthodox brother Greece, provided that permission. Russia failed to avert the threats of bombing (remember there was weeks of notice before the first bomb dropped). All of this drove the citizens of Serbia towards Milosevic. This, in turn, probably saved Milosevic and the anti Milosevic movement was left high and dry! NATO bombing brought Serbs together against a common enemy and to this day, a sense that the world is against Serbia remains. Some have speculated that Milosevic himself predicted this outcome and, for this reason, choose not to intervene in Kosovo.
So while I hate the fact the Serbia was bombed, I hate even more that Milosevic was able to prevent it but probably welcomed it for his own devious purpose – to cling on to power.
Be a bit more serious please
(szemi, 11 June 2010 12:02)
Szemi,
If I would be an IDF insider, I would tell more. (Un)fortunately I am not. Besides, IDF insiders rarely "sing". So wiki what we have for now. And I wasn't the fly (or a "bolha" = flea) on the wall in IDF HQ as they discussed.
What is your source? Don't tell me, a Bollah bolka bolha on the wall in that city of ash-Shām.
Yes, and they should have concentrated in the Drenica region and border with Albania.
(Jason, 10 June 2010 15:10)
Jason
Please obey to your superiors. I do not believe they will ever ask you what they should or should not do. I can see how desperate you are when B92 is the only way to address your sugestions considering that you are an "international"
The massive graves of Kosovo albanians found in Serbia shortly after the war, those found recently (in Raska), show if these bombardings were right or not.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Serbia should take responsibility for there actions it was a hard decision for the west until they just had enough of your politicians playing with diplomatic words while Albanians and Serbs were suffering, at some point in the future they will say sorry as they keep digging up Albanian bodies hidden in Serbia and both countries find closure for the respective communities
God bless our Serbian martyrs who died as soldiers defending Kosovo.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
They still are in contact with a lot of their comrade veterans from the VJ,MUP and Special police units and have befrinded them,they dream about liberating this holy Serbian land of foreign occupation.
And this day WILL come,sooner or later.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame but they won't because they have no shame and doing so would be admitting their guilt. They fixed the R agreement so that no sovereign country could accept it and used it as an excuse to bomb Serbia. NATO's days are numbered and Serbia will live to see NATO's humiliation. I was strongly against the bombing of Serbia at the time, and will never forgive our UK politicians who pressed for the bombing for their stupidity and lack of integrity. NATO were gutless fighters bombing from 30,000 feet too scared to fight on the ground. Apart from civilians and infrastructure what did they hit? 3 tanks!!!
Clinton is a true hero, he saved many kosovo albanian lives from the evil oppression of serbians. Clinton will go down as one of the best American president, god bless him and his family, and all of Kosovo albanians.
My brother and two cousins were fighting at the Pashtrik and Koritnik mountain(near Prizren)under general Vladimir Lazarevic,commander of the 3rd Serbian army which repelled all attacks (NATO SAS and UCK terrorists with air cover) at the Serbian border.
RE: General Lazervic is at peace!
General Lazerevic met with Patrichiate Pavle after the Hague indictment for his opinion on turning himself in. Patrichiate Pavle made it clear it was a choice based on his conscious, he was clearly not guilty of any crimes but was compelled to answer for his role. For the sake of the mounting propoganda against Serbia, he chose to turn himself in.
The Kosovo heroes include General Pavkovic, Sretan Lukic, Nikola Sainovic, General Ojdanic and the many brave soldiers who defended Serbian and Albanian civilians alike bravely from the illegal invasion of NATO as well as the KLA terrorists.
They are true heroes wrongly convicted by the Hague Tribunal kangaroo show trial but not forgotten.
I have to remind you that Mr.Yeltsyn is dead , Mr.Chernomirdin is retired and Mr.Kozirev is working in his beloved America for a local company. So next time it may as well be the last NATO bombings in their short and disgusting history. We Russians still believe that they bombed us as well. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
(Staff, 10 June 2010 15:43)
Believe me Diana, nothing could be further than the truth. And if you believe Staff could possibly be anything more than "janitorial staff" heaven help you.
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so
Staff
If ever you do have the opportunity to visit Bondsteel, I can assure you that this is not what you will find.
American soldiers that have served in Kosovo are proud of what they have done. The shame is that they "had" to react to save the people of Kosovo. But an unconditional surrender should have been the only way to end the conflict.
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
The saying that a lot of men do not allow their brains to do their thinking is very true.
Ratko, I don't share your opinion that NATO deliberately targeted civillians as the Serbs did for instance in Cuska and others villages in Kosovo. I think that many Serbs thought that NATO would not target them if they traveled in a train. For ex., How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
Let's never forget the bravery of the Serbian soldiers who repelled KLA terrorists (NATO's ground troops) from ever crossing into Serbia, despite repeated attempts from the aggressors.
Because of this complete failure of NATO, they were forced to sign UNSC Resolution 1244, which guarantees that Kosovo is Serbia, and still stands today. Hats off to all the branve Serbian soldiers who made this possible. You will be heroes for eternity!
Cheers!!
Whenever I am reminded of the cowardly military actions of the NATO (Clinton and Co.), and the murder of innocent civilians, I am sickened to my stomach. Western troops could have been brought in to stop the civil unrest in Kosovo between the KLA and the VS. Clinton, of course, took the cowards way and sent high-flying bombers to wreck havoc on the former Yugoslavia and Kosovo, not caring too much about the human carnage left behind, both Serbian and Albanian. He (Clinton) did not dare lose one American troop, it would have been political suicide. He will, in my opinion, go down as one of the most dispicable human beings in American history. And where have these murderous actions of Clinton brought the Balkans - pretty much nowhere. Kosovo is still unsettled and far from it. Bosnia is still unsettled, and far from it. Macedonia is still unsettled, and far from it. Montenegro, with Dukanovic trying to save his skin, has become America's lapdog, and embarrassed the once proud Montenegren people. Croatia is a Germany wanna be, so Berlin will take it under its wing. In conclusion, if there is a just God, Clinton will be on the receiving end of his "humanitarian intervention" and own medicine, for eternity.
NATO and their supporters should hang their head in shame...(Diana, 10 June 2010 11:06)
Believe me Diana, they are ashamed. No one talks about it today and if you ask any american officer or soldier at Bondsteel, as I have, they will tell you so. Even a Major told me after March 2004 riots that "my God, we have bombed the wrong people". Kosovo is a saga that is to be finished soon. The Albanians do not have support anymore and ICJ verdict is round the corner.
Serbia should hope this does not hapen again, because as I remember Russia did nothing to help them then and because their relationship with US, EU and NATO is so importantto them they will not help them in the future either - apart from their usual diplomatic blubbering.
Having said that, I wonder if Serbia has any (powerful) friends left? Hmmm ...
We will never forget people we lost, and we will always be eternaly grateful to brave man who stood to protect integrity of our nation.
We did rise up to be bigger and better nation amid all the distruction and propaganda.
Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)
LOL - that your bollah did what?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
"On a comparison done by the armor corps newsletter it was shown that the average number of crewmen killed per tank penetrated was reduced from 2 during the Yom Kippur War to 1.5 during the 1982 Lebanon War to 1 during the 2006 Lebanon War proving how, even in the face of the improvement in anti-tank weaponry, the Merkava Mark IV provides better protection to its crew."
So how many Merkava tanks were lost?
From same source:
"Hezbollah fired antitank missiles during the course of the conflict, penetrating armor in five Merkava Mark IV tanks and killing 10."
"All but two Merkava Mark IV tanks damaged during the war were repaired and returned to the IDF. The Israeli military said that it was satisfied with the Merkava Mark IV's performance, and attributed problems to insufficient training before the war"
Summary: 10 army personal was killed (this is indeed a lot for Israel) and two tanks permanently lost.
Do you have any other document showing a more catastrophic scenario?
If Turks did cancel Merkava Mark IV orders - that's good (for now), they have less firepower than. Unfortunately they will get some good tanks from somewhere anyway, it's just question of time.
I am very satisfied with the Turkish-Israeli ties being at lowest at the moment. The only form I want to see that turkey is with filling, cut and sliced for the Thanksgiving, preferably slices given to Armenia, Georgia, Kurdistan, Syria, Greece, Bulgaria - everyone has to have a little feast on Thanksgiving.
Otherwise not sure why the celebration of these insane bollahs. They are not any better than Chechen gangsters, KLA and Izetbegovic. And of course during the Balkan conflict these bollah did support what side? I am somehow thinking, not Serbs at all.
The difference between the American soldiers and a handful of the American police officers is that the military were not allowed to fraternize with the local Serbian girls to cloud their judgment.
(pss, 10 June 2010 20:23)
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
"Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
(szemi, 10 June 2010 21:47)"
You're funny szemi. I guess you didn't notice that this current proud Turkish government was the very first to recognise Kosova (and would have done so regardless of what the US wanted), while the terrorist regime in Tel Aviv strongly backs Serbian "integrity" and has strongly resisted any US pressure to recognise, aware of the obvious parallel between between Serbian oppression of Kosova and Israel's oppression of Palestine.
Anyway, the world moves in complicated ways, and black and white scenarios rarely fit. NATO's bombing fromj thousands of feet in the air did terrorise thousands of innocent Serbs and was unsupportable despite the Serbian army's own terrorising of the Albanians. NATO did not save Albanian lives like someone said, after it started its bombing the Serbian ethnic cleansing and terror picked up massively.
What a shameful period on all sides. RIP all the Serb and Albanian victims of both NATO and Milosevic in 1999.
Very interesting theory yet highly questionable... You see, the overwhelming majority of American civilians in Kosovo that are married to locals are with Albanians. Many Americans have become believers in what their wives or girlfriends tell them - without even knowing more than a handful of Serbs.
Anyone dating a Serb has more ability to be objective simply because all Americans are given the US version (pro-Albanian) of what happened in Kosovo when in training, and force-fed the versions of "historical" events from Albanians here. It takes a person to actually go look at things from the other side to make a truly unbiased assessment. Why Most Americans in Kosovo have never done this.
(JP, 11 June 2010 06:49)
Very true that the majority of Americans(that marry local civilians) are married to Albanians and I believe their judgment is just as skewed. But I disagree that the ones marrying Serbs are more open minded-still thinking with the same part of the body.
What you say though supports my view that Staff has no idea what he is talking about. You are not going to walk onto Bondsteel and find people saying that "we bombed the wrong people"
. So now that we have thrown them away from the post Soviet territories it’s high time to take a revenge for our defeats on the Balkans. See you !
(Rote, 10 June 2010 19:54)
Indeed everything seems to flow in that direction.The current turkish israeli conflict is just a whipped cream on the cake.Your Kornet ATGMs back in 2006 in the hands of Hezbollah fighters seem to have started the domino effect.Turks seeing that those Merkavas are not perfect at all canceled a big deal which israelis have not been able to digest so far.A crack in the US-Turkey-Israel axis of terror is very useful for future situation of the Balkans and Caucasian region as well.Intersting developments ahead of us.
Be a bit more serious please
(szemi, 11 June 2010 12:02)
Szemi,
If I would be an IDF insider, I would tell more. (Un)fortunately I am not. Besides, IDF insiders rarely "sing". So wiki what we have for now. And I wasn't the fly (or a "bolha" = flea) on the wall in IDF HQ as they discussed.
What is your source? Don't tell me, a Bollah bolka bolha on the wall in that city of ash-Shām.
(Ataman, 11 June 2010 01:03)
Wikipedia what a reliable source Haha.
I rather belive my eyes than your source and saw something else.Be a bit more serious please
How did you want NATO to know if those in the train were civilians?
(Gladko, 10 June 2010 21:48)
===================
The same way the could've known that those schools were used by civilians.
They ran out of military targets in a couple of days. The rest was civilians targeting and you know it.
The NATO campaign was essentially a campaign to stop Milosevic and his policies. Predictably, it failed its objective as it provided a rallying call for all Serbs. Prior to the bombing, the people of Serbia were massively dissatisfied with Milosevic. They were already protesting at his bankrupting of the economy, the influence of gangsterism and criminality. They (or at least those with access to non nationalist media) could see the damage that Milosevic was doing to the reputation of Serbia throughout the world. Thanks to Milosevic, Serbia was losing friends, even it’s traditionally close friends. All NATO planes needed permission from neighbouring countries to overfly and all, including orthodox brother Greece, provided that permission. Russia failed to avert the threats of bombing (remember there was weeks of notice before the first bomb dropped). All of this drove the citizens of Serbia towards Milosevic. This, in turn, probably saved Milosevic and the anti Milosevic movement was left high and dry! NATO bombing brought Serbs together against a common enemy and to this day, a sense that the world is against Serbia remains. Some have speculated that Milosevic himself predicted this outcome and, for this reason, choose not to intervene in Kosovo.
So while I hate the fact the Serbia was bombed, I hate even more that Milosevic was able to prevent it but probably welcomed it for his own devious purpose – to cling on to power.
Yes, and they should have concentrated in the Drenica region and border with Albania.
(Jason, 10 June 2010 15:10)
Jason
Please obey to your superiors. I do not believe they will ever ask you what they should or should not do. I can see how desperate you are when B92 is the only way to address your sugestions considering that you are an "international"
The massive graves of Kosovo albanians found in Serbia shortly after the war, those found recently (in Raska), show if these bombardings were right or not.
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