Penny Pinto,
i'm very sorry that you seem to feel that i simply defend the serb atrocities. i do not, and have many times agreed that who ever has committed crimes should and must be punished. however, i do realize that crimes have been committed by all sides, and it is this argument that needs to be understood. i am 100% certain that serbs inflicted horrific crimes against albanians, croatians, bosniaks, as i am 100% sure that albanians committed horrific crimes against serbs, and bosniaks against croatians and serbs, and croatians against bosniaks and serbs. i'm also very certain of the crimes committed by the many previous generations against one an other.
i have constantly argued for the proverbial hatchet to be buried and for the people to move on.
as far as who am i am is concerned, i was unaware that i was the only anonymous poster here. please provide me and all of our colleagues here with your mailing address and i will gladly send you a photo graph of myself. i find it rather preposterous that you feel it necessary to imply such a thing.
and furthermore, i hope that in your studies, you've listened to all sides with open ears and open eyes. nothing in the balkans is ever one-sided, and based upon your self proclaimed expertise you too should know and fully understand this truism.
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
(John, 18 May 2010 10:17)
Robert is not anonymous, you may google on Robert Russ, sometimes he writes his name as "Roberto Russo". Unlike with Joe whom we (my fault!) confused mightly with Joe Henel (both Joe-s have nothing to do with each other) here is no question.
Robert is a teacher in or near SF and I have pictures of him. So far so good, but I would like to see him joining unrelated travel forum(s), there are many (like "thorn tree", "trip advisor" and there is the world's #1, too - I intentionally did not mention). So he can see what is out there and ask. Things are never black and white. Besides if he desires - he can get invaluable help from local Serbs, Albanians and what-not.
If he choses to fight his own fight on his own - than it's fine, everyone has to decide what to do. But in order to fight - someone needs to determine who is the enemy.
Because if there is no enemy to fight, than it's like Donkey Hoxha (the different spelling of Don Quixote) who fights the cellular network transmission towers (or windmills): more harm than good.
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Did you contact Ewa? Here I ask you again - what is your plan, how would you influence her employer to switch her on that project? Besides, I was the one who played "Sherlock Holmes" for an hour or so to dig out her contact. More precisely, Gjergj Fishta did the lion share of the investigation, I was just "googling" like a mad.
You did not follow up with us on that. What's the plan?
----
we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
thank you.
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Than do it. I will help you as much as I can to taking you there and finding you a place to live - but in person I don't think it is useful for you to interfere with EULEX / government dealings simply because:
1) you are not a citizen. How it would be if Russian volunteers will re-inforce the Serbian site?
2) your knowledge of the circumstances is MINIMAL, you proved that here with the "k-elbows":
In my opinion it is much more useful for you to join the worlds #1 travel forum I wrote you about and learn as much as possible about the Balkans there. I wrote about it in my e-mail. Did you join it already? Costs nothing.
At least Roberto is who he says he is.
(Penny Pinto, 18 May 2010 02:06)
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
They actually haven't found or dug up a single body. Note: "believed to be buried"
So having all the headlines of a mass grave when they haven't found anything is PURE anti-Serb propaganda.
They did this EXACT same thing last year or so and they found NOTHING at the site that was given headlines for a mass grave.
First they have to find SOME bodies. Then they have to give an estimate based on ACTUAL findings, if any.
They they have to get at least a FEW identities or clear clues of who they are and/or how and when they died.
I read that they dug up 8 bodies from a location in Kosovo where the KLA did operate - but no mainstream media pronouncement of a mass grave or claims about what ethnic group the dead were.
which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
(Mr Rae, 18 May 2010 00:54)
Mr Rae,
At least Roberto is who he says he is. You, on the other hand, do not reveal your identity which leads me to believe you are from the Serb camp. Why do I say this? Simply because you fail to acknowledge that the preponderance of the killing, raping and destruction was done by your side. Don't bother to give me your statistics, as I've done lots of research on the Balkan wars of the 1990's.
"Association Coordinator Milorad Trifunović said that if investigations into the Kosovo sites do not begin, the Association will block the excavation near Raška."
It’s a clear proof that the people envolved direct or indirectly in the “wipe-out” operation against Kosovars in 1998-1999 don’t want the evidences of truth be revealed to the world… and to the Serbian public opinion.
Rocky, i think that you are missing the point that many of these people (at least the ones that you seem convinced to ignore) is that people were brutally killed by all sides. it is a crying shame when someone like roberto who poses as a well rounded, well educated person so clearly stands out as a biased angry person, constantly posing single sided arguments, offering no positive points with respect to peaces -- all the while signing autographs as the 'poster-boy' for world peace in his comfortable bayside condo. roberto has offered some very good ideas, but constantly incomplete. if he applied his thoughts towards both sides, to the civilians of both albanian and serbian ethnicity alike, to the families of those people that were killed be they christian, muslim or jew he would be seen as more of the rational person that he poses as.
i've generally found myself dissatisfied with roberto's one sided arguments, especially when he seems close to a good idea.
at this point in time, now that the dust has settled, when we would all hope for the veils of secrecy and atrocities to be removed, it is not just the serbs, nor the albanians, but also the robertos of the world that keep politicizing these issues.
if all of the mothers from all sides of the wars of the balkans of the past 20 years could get together to share their grief, they would see what it is that they have in common, and that it is so much stronger than anything their political leaders tell them is different about each other.
let all the bodies be found.
let all the truth come out.
let the politicians fade away and the hearts be mended.
rocky, it is not the people's fault, and many on this forum, on both sides are starting to see that reality. many people are starting to find this 'magical-middle-ground'. many people are realizing that there is less of a reason to fight one another than to support one another. however, no matter how rational we all think we are, and think that we can be the tiniest pressure can roll back all the forward progress if the grieving people are politicized; and that is exactly what is happening to all sides. it's more of a shame that in such a forum, far away from these realities, we cannot find this middle more often, that we must poke and prod one another to illicit a negative response only to politicize it ourselves.
as a so-called impartial person, by now roberto should have stumbled across the plethora of double-sided information to convince himself of the very high likelihood that this was in fact a total cluster-f*** and all sides conducted evil against all other sides. this has not appeared to be the case, which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
Im not sure what the Serb government is trying to achieve with this, gain sympathy from the west? Make the Serbs feel bad about what happened? Thats surely not going to work. This is a fair protest, they've been waiting 4 years and nothing has happened but the government is trying to excavate supposed albanian graves, look after your own first, shame on you Tadic!
Roberto, my friend these people are not human.
(Rocky, 17 May 2010 21:25)
===================
No, they are very human. It's KLA who are not human and have done some very, very disgusting things.
So when a Serb asks for equal treatment, you say they are not human.
Roberto, I agree that this group is misguided in this instance but I cannot begin to imagine their pain. You say they are part of the problem. I say you are part of the problem. You come here to post in confrontation with your demands when what you want is substantially happening. I'll say it again, YOU are part of the problem not the solution.
"we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me)"
Let me help you roberto-the correct spelling is Dr.Ewa Klonowski.
Last week you botched her last name too.
If you're going to drop names in your constant attempts to appear important you should at least know how to spell the names.
'Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
(Jason, '
Wow, you are the biggest whistle blower since Deep Throat, please please wise sir provide us with some minimal proof.
Let the missery of these familys be over and done with and dont tease them with such kind of news and let them down with another fabrication.
I please wish that this cave does not have more "colours" just evidence to evil that needs to be punished.
At least some of that 'group' have lost loved ones, perhaps buried in a mass grave somewhere else.
I find it unbelievable that our western human rights friends bang on about helping the feelings of the victims on the one hand and on the other those victims, lose their victim status and become evil in a heartbeat.
And yet when those that our western friends consider victims do overkill / express extreme views on this site, they are patted on the back!
Roberto will go and defend the grave diggers himself, wow, that out to put hte fear of God into anyone. Too bad this Roberto doesn't show such zeal for unearthing butchered Serbian, and other minorities, bodies, like he does for Albanians and Bosnian muslims. This guy's bias, voids any credibility in his/her statements, I.e., ignore button.
Roberto: "we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency"
-- Who is "we?" Last I checked you were just another American (sorry to say) who sticks his nose in business that is not his.
"we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally."
-- Wow, I bet the Serbs up there are nervous that the almighty Roberto may come there. Heck, I may go and watch for entertainment's sake.
Anyway, all teasing of our silly friend Roberto aside, it is sad that all the missing have not been identified. I am sure the protesters are frustrated with lack of results just as Albanians in Kosovo are. Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
(Paul Pitt, 17 May 2010 15:53)
ok then the same can be said about bosnian muslims. Srebrenica never happened, the muslims just deserted their terrorist groups and are living in neighboring countries
Pitt, what a stupid comment. No one knows anything about the missing Serbs, and other minorities, yet you claim they are deserters from the JV, where in the world do you get this nonsense from? People like you are a disgrace to the human race, for your lack of compassion for anyone or anything, that is not your kind.
# How disgusting! Especially they should know how painful it is to search for a lost person. The dead bodies in Raska are no bargaining chip.
(Adam, 17 May 2010 12:34)
what a horrible and unforgivable thing for this group to do, and for other to defend.
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
i feel very bad for all victims of these horrible wars, but this group needs to address the issue very differently or they become a part of the problem. and if anyone tries to stop the work itself (when is it beginning??) we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
Good point, why hasn't there been any attempt to find missing bodies Serbs and other minorities, in Kosovo killed by the KLA and ethnic Albanians - not to mention all the innocent Albanians themselves that were killed by the KLA, because someone pointed the evil finger of "conspirator" at them. As someone pointed out, in proportion to the population, more minorities were killed than Albanians. The West, and it's organizations, promote this coverup of missing non-Albanian dead, to keep their project in a good light - quite disgraceful, in my opinion.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
(Zoran, 17 May 2010 15:03)
Zoran,
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
Serbs preventing Albanian mass grave to be investigated and Albanians refusing to investigate Serb mass graves. The problem is that for political reasons Serb mass graves need to be untouched. The war against Serbia was based on the ethnic clensing theory and any new developments about Serb victims will not help the Albanian and American cause of Kosovo independece. Also it wouldn't be good for Albanians to tell the truth about missing Serbs just before the ICJ ruling in the Hague. It wouldn't help them in their plan for Kosovo statehood and getting rid of the Kosovo Serbs. Both sides need to come clean and investigate all crimes commited. No side has the right to deny the other the truth and the posibility to give their dead ones a proper resting place.
"That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
(kujon,"
You are right on that aspect, but the problem is that for the past years all the energy and resources had to go to fabrications as "rainbow house" and what nots. fabrications instead of truth.
BUt using this cheap trick on htis day is really childish.
THe fact is that there were more Serb on Albanian crime in the end of 90's and if we went to please the Serbs it would be e very short life for finding the many more Albanains still missing.
Well it is fair for relatives of those missing to demand that their loved ones remains be located. I argue that for both sides.
However, blocking an excavation of a mass grave is not the right way to go about it. I am not an advocate of doing nothing though and perhaps the least worst way to gain some publicity for their cause is to hold a demonstration whilst this digging is going on.
Oso,
They don't want to 'keep them hidden' as you say. What they seem to be upset about is that because there are suspected Albanian bodies, there is action to find out, but when there are suspected Serbian bodies, nothing happens.
all they seem to be asking for, is if you want to look for Albanian bodies, then also look for the Serbian bodies we told you about 4 years ago.
That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
You stoped long enough,12 years after their death and you want to keep them longer from being buried in proper way,maybe you can since you kept them hiden for so long.
You stoped long enough,12 years after their death and you want to keep them longer from being buried in proper way,maybe you can since you kept them hiden for so long.
Well it is fair for relatives of those missing to demand that their loved ones remains be located. I argue that for both sides.
However, blocking an excavation of a mass grave is not the right way to go about it. I am not an advocate of doing nothing though and perhaps the least worst way to gain some publicity for their cause is to hold a demonstration whilst this digging is going on.
Oso,
They don't want to 'keep them hidden' as you say. What they seem to be upset about is that because there are suspected Albanian bodies, there is action to find out, but when there are suspected Serbian bodies, nothing happens.
all they seem to be asking for, is if you want to look for Albanian bodies, then also look for the Serbian bodies we told you about 4 years ago.
That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
"That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
(kujon,"
You are right on that aspect, but the problem is that for the past years all the energy and resources had to go to fabrications as "rainbow house" and what nots. fabrications instead of truth.
BUt using this cheap trick on htis day is really childish.
THe fact is that there were more Serb on Albanian crime in the end of 90's and if we went to please the Serbs it would be e very short life for finding the many more Albanains still missing.
Serbs preventing Albanian mass grave to be investigated and Albanians refusing to investigate Serb mass graves. The problem is that for political reasons Serb mass graves need to be untouched. The war against Serbia was based on the ethnic clensing theory and any new developments about Serb victims will not help the Albanian and American cause of Kosovo independece. Also it wouldn't be good for Albanians to tell the truth about missing Serbs just before the ICJ ruling in the Hague. It wouldn't help them in their plan for Kosovo statehood and getting rid of the Kosovo Serbs. Both sides need to come clean and investigate all crimes commited. No side has the right to deny the other the truth and the posibility to give their dead ones a proper resting place.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
Good point, why hasn't there been any attempt to find missing bodies Serbs and other minorities, in Kosovo killed by the KLA and ethnic Albanians - not to mention all the innocent Albanians themselves that were killed by the KLA, because someone pointed the evil finger of "conspirator" at them. As someone pointed out, in proportion to the population, more minorities were killed than Albanians. The West, and it's organizations, promote this coverup of missing non-Albanian dead, to keep their project in a good light - quite disgraceful, in my opinion.
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
(Paul Pitt, 17 May 2010 15:53)
ok then the same can be said about bosnian muslims. Srebrenica never happened, the muslims just deserted their terrorist groups and are living in neighboring countries
# How disgusting! Especially they should know how painful it is to search for a lost person. The dead bodies in Raska are no bargaining chip.
(Adam, 17 May 2010 12:34)
what a horrible and unforgivable thing for this group to do, and for other to defend.
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
i feel very bad for all victims of these horrible wars, but this group needs to address the issue very differently or they become a part of the problem. and if anyone tries to stop the work itself (when is it beginning??) we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
Roberto: "we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency"
-- Who is "we?" Last I checked you were just another American (sorry to say) who sticks his nose in business that is not his.
"we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally."
-- Wow, I bet the Serbs up there are nervous that the almighty Roberto may come there. Heck, I may go and watch for entertainment's sake.
Anyway, all teasing of our silly friend Roberto aside, it is sad that all the missing have not been identified. I am sure the protesters are frustrated with lack of results just as Albanians in Kosovo are. Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
(Zoran, 17 May 2010 15:03)
Zoran,
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
Pitt, what a stupid comment. No one knows anything about the missing Serbs, and other minorities, yet you claim they are deserters from the JV, where in the world do you get this nonsense from? People like you are a disgrace to the human race, for your lack of compassion for anyone or anything, that is not your kind.
At least some of that 'group' have lost loved ones, perhaps buried in a mass grave somewhere else.
I find it unbelievable that our western human rights friends bang on about helping the feelings of the victims on the one hand and on the other those victims, lose their victim status and become evil in a heartbeat.
And yet when those that our western friends consider victims do overkill / express extreme views on this site, they are patted on the back!
Roberto will go and defend the grave diggers himself, wow, that out to put hte fear of God into anyone. Too bad this Roberto doesn't show such zeal for unearthing butchered Serbian, and other minorities, bodies, like he does for Albanians and Bosnian muslims. This guy's bias, voids any credibility in his/her statements, I.e., ignore button.
Im not sure what the Serb government is trying to achieve with this, gain sympathy from the west? Make the Serbs feel bad about what happened? Thats surely not going to work. This is a fair protest, they've been waiting 4 years and nothing has happened but the government is trying to excavate supposed albanian graves, look after your own first, shame on you Tadic!
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
(John, 18 May 2010 10:17)
Robert is not anonymous, you may google on Robert Russ, sometimes he writes his name as "Roberto Russo". Unlike with Joe whom we (my fault!) confused mightly with Joe Henel (both Joe-s have nothing to do with each other) here is no question.
Robert is a teacher in or near SF and I have pictures of him. So far so good, but I would like to see him joining unrelated travel forum(s), there are many (like "thorn tree", "trip advisor" and there is the world's #1, too - I intentionally did not mention). So he can see what is out there and ask. Things are never black and white. Besides if he desires - he can get invaluable help from local Serbs, Albanians and what-not.
If he choses to fight his own fight on his own - than it's fine, everyone has to decide what to do. But in order to fight - someone needs to determine who is the enemy.
Because if there is no enemy to fight, than it's like Donkey Hoxha (the different spelling of Don Quixote) who fights the cellular network transmission towers (or windmills): more harm than good.
Roberto, I agree that this group is misguided in this instance but I cannot begin to imagine their pain. You say they are part of the problem. I say you are part of the problem. You come here to post in confrontation with your demands when what you want is substantially happening. I'll say it again, YOU are part of the problem not the solution.
It’s a clear proof that the people envolved direct or indirectly in the “wipe-out” operation against Kosovars in 1998-1999 don’t want the evidences of truth be revealed to the world… and to the Serbian public opinion.
"we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me)"
Let me help you roberto-the correct spelling is Dr.Ewa Klonowski.
Last week you botched her last name too.
If you're going to drop names in your constant attempts to appear important you should at least know how to spell the names.
'Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
(Jason, '
Wow, you are the biggest whistle blower since Deep Throat, please please wise sir provide us with some minimal proof.
Let the missery of these familys be over and done with and dont tease them with such kind of news and let them down with another fabrication.
I please wish that this cave does not have more "colours" just evidence to evil that needs to be punished.
Roberto, my friend these people are not human.
(Rocky, 17 May 2010 21:25)
===================
No, they are very human. It's KLA who are not human and have done some very, very disgusting things.
So when a Serb asks for equal treatment, you say they are not human.
At least Roberto is who he says he is.
(Penny Pinto, 18 May 2010 02:06)
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
Rocky, i think that you are missing the point that many of these people (at least the ones that you seem convinced to ignore) is that people were brutally killed by all sides. it is a crying shame when someone like roberto who poses as a well rounded, well educated person so clearly stands out as a biased angry person, constantly posing single sided arguments, offering no positive points with respect to peaces -- all the while signing autographs as the 'poster-boy' for world peace in his comfortable bayside condo. roberto has offered some very good ideas, but constantly incomplete. if he applied his thoughts towards both sides, to the civilians of both albanian and serbian ethnicity alike, to the families of those people that were killed be they christian, muslim or jew he would be seen as more of the rational person that he poses as.
i've generally found myself dissatisfied with roberto's one sided arguments, especially when he seems close to a good idea.
at this point in time, now that the dust has settled, when we would all hope for the veils of secrecy and atrocities to be removed, it is not just the serbs, nor the albanians, but also the robertos of the world that keep politicizing these issues.
if all of the mothers from all sides of the wars of the balkans of the past 20 years could get together to share their grief, they would see what it is that they have in common, and that it is so much stronger than anything their political leaders tell them is different about each other.
let all the bodies be found.
let all the truth come out.
let the politicians fade away and the hearts be mended.
rocky, it is not the people's fault, and many on this forum, on both sides are starting to see that reality. many people are starting to find this 'magical-middle-ground'. many people are realizing that there is less of a reason to fight one another than to support one another. however, no matter how rational we all think we are, and think that we can be the tiniest pressure can roll back all the forward progress if the grieving people are politicized; and that is exactly what is happening to all sides. it's more of a shame that in such a forum, far away from these realities, we cannot find this middle more often, that we must poke and prod one another to illicit a negative response only to politicize it ourselves.
as a so-called impartial person, by now roberto should have stumbled across the plethora of double-sided information to convince himself of the very high likelihood that this was in fact a total cluster-f*** and all sides conducted evil against all other sides. this has not appeared to be the case, which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
(Mr Rae, 18 May 2010 00:54)
Mr Rae,
At least Roberto is who he says he is. You, on the other hand, do not reveal your identity which leads me to believe you are from the Serb camp. Why do I say this? Simply because you fail to acknowledge that the preponderance of the killing, raping and destruction was done by your side. Don't bother to give me your statistics, as I've done lots of research on the Balkan wars of the 1990's.
"Association Coordinator Milorad Trifunović said that if investigations into the Kosovo sites do not begin, the Association will block the excavation near Raška."
They actually haven't found or dug up a single body. Note: "believed to be buried"
So having all the headlines of a mass grave when they haven't found anything is PURE anti-Serb propaganda.
They did this EXACT same thing last year or so and they found NOTHING at the site that was given headlines for a mass grave.
First they have to find SOME bodies. Then they have to give an estimate based on ACTUAL findings, if any.
They they have to get at least a FEW identities or clear clues of who they are and/or how and when they died.
I read that they dug up 8 bodies from a location in Kosovo where the KLA did operate - but no mainstream media pronouncement of a mass grave or claims about what ethnic group the dead were.
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Did you contact Ewa? Here I ask you again - what is your plan, how would you influence her employer to switch her on that project? Besides, I was the one who played "Sherlock Holmes" for an hour or so to dig out her contact. More precisely, Gjergj Fishta did the lion share of the investigation, I was just "googling" like a mad.
You did not follow up with us on that. What's the plan?
----
we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
thank you.
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Than do it. I will help you as much as I can to taking you there and finding you a place to live - but in person I don't think it is useful for you to interfere with EULEX / government dealings simply because:
1) you are not a citizen. How it would be if Russian volunteers will re-inforce the Serbian site?
2) your knowledge of the circumstances is MINIMAL, you proved that here with the "k-elbows":
In my opinion it is much more useful for you to join the worlds #1 travel forum I wrote you about and learn as much as possible about the Balkans there. I wrote about it in my e-mail. Did you join it already? Costs nothing.
Penny Pinto,
i'm very sorry that you seem to feel that i simply defend the serb atrocities. i do not, and have many times agreed that who ever has committed crimes should and must be punished. however, i do realize that crimes have been committed by all sides, and it is this argument that needs to be understood. i am 100% certain that serbs inflicted horrific crimes against albanians, croatians, bosniaks, as i am 100% sure that albanians committed horrific crimes against serbs, and bosniaks against croatians and serbs, and croatians against bosniaks and serbs. i'm also very certain of the crimes committed by the many previous generations against one an other.
i have constantly argued for the proverbial hatchet to be buried and for the people to move on.
as far as who am i am is concerned, i was unaware that i was the only anonymous poster here. please provide me and all of our colleagues here with your mailing address and i will gladly send you a photo graph of myself. i find it rather preposterous that you feel it necessary to imply such a thing.
and furthermore, i hope that in your studies, you've listened to all sides with open ears and open eyes. nothing in the balkans is ever one-sided, and based upon your self proclaimed expertise you too should know and fully understand this truism.
Well it is fair for relatives of those missing to demand that their loved ones remains be located. I argue that for both sides.
However, blocking an excavation of a mass grave is not the right way to go about it. I am not an advocate of doing nothing though and perhaps the least worst way to gain some publicity for their cause is to hold a demonstration whilst this digging is going on.
Oso,
They don't want to 'keep them hidden' as you say. What they seem to be upset about is that because there are suspected Albanian bodies, there is action to find out, but when there are suspected Serbian bodies, nothing happens.
all they seem to be asking for, is if you want to look for Albanian bodies, then also look for the Serbian bodies we told you about 4 years ago.
That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
You stoped long enough,12 years after their death and you want to keep them longer from being buried in proper way,maybe you can since you kept them hiden for so long.
At least some of that 'group' have lost loved ones, perhaps buried in a mass grave somewhere else.
I find it unbelievable that our western human rights friends bang on about helping the feelings of the victims on the one hand and on the other those victims, lose their victim status and become evil in a heartbeat.
And yet when those that our western friends consider victims do overkill / express extreme views on this site, they are patted on the back!
# How disgusting! Especially they should know how painful it is to search for a lost person. The dead bodies in Raska are no bargaining chip.
(Adam, 17 May 2010 12:34)
what a horrible and unforgivable thing for this group to do, and for other to defend.
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
i feel very bad for all victims of these horrible wars, but this group needs to address the issue very differently or they become a part of the problem. and if anyone tries to stop the work itself (when is it beginning??) we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
1,709 Serbs and non-Albanians from Kosovo still listed as missing.
--
Wow, in proportion to the population of the province, that's more Serbians and non-Albanians dead than ethnic Albanians. Considering that ethnic Albanians were killing their own also, it's no wonder they are still hiding their crimes. It's about time all innocents are found and returned to their loved ones.
(Zoran, 17 May 2010 15:03)
Zoran,
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
"That seems very fair to me as well as an easy way for for the adminsitration to there to improve relations.
(kujon,"
You are right on that aspect, but the problem is that for the past years all the energy and resources had to go to fabrications as "rainbow house" and what nots. fabrications instead of truth.
BUt using this cheap trick on htis day is really childish.
THe fact is that there were more Serb on Albanian crime in the end of 90's and if we went to please the Serbs it would be e very short life for finding the many more Albanains still missing.
Serbs preventing Albanian mass grave to be investigated and Albanians refusing to investigate Serb mass graves. The problem is that for political reasons Serb mass graves need to be untouched. The war against Serbia was based on the ethnic clensing theory and any new developments about Serb victims will not help the Albanian and American cause of Kosovo independece. Also it wouldn't be good for Albanians to tell the truth about missing Serbs just before the ICJ ruling in the Hague. It wouldn't help them in their plan for Kosovo statehood and getting rid of the Kosovo Serbs. Both sides need to come clean and investigate all crimes commited. No side has the right to deny the other the truth and the posibility to give their dead ones a proper resting place.
Good point, why hasn't there been any attempt to find missing bodies Serbs and other minorities, in Kosovo killed by the KLA and ethnic Albanians - not to mention all the innocent Albanians themselves that were killed by the KLA, because someone pointed the evil finger of "conspirator" at them. As someone pointed out, in proportion to the population, more minorities were killed than Albanians. The West, and it's organizations, promote this coverup of missing non-Albanian dead, to keep their project in a good light - quite disgraceful, in my opinion.
Please stop being ingenuous, everyone know that most of the "missing" Serbs are deserters from their Army. You can find them living happily in neighboring countries. I'm sure they have contacted their families long ago. You should try coming up with a more believable explanation.
(Paul Pitt, 17 May 2010 15:53)
ok then the same can be said about bosnian muslims. Srebrenica never happened, the muslims just deserted their terrorist groups and are living in neighboring countries
Roberto: "we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency"
-- Who is "we?" Last I checked you were just another American (sorry to say) who sticks his nose in business that is not his.
"we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally."
-- Wow, I bet the Serbs up there are nervous that the almighty Roberto may come there. Heck, I may go and watch for entertainment's sake.
Anyway, all teasing of our silly friend Roberto aside, it is sad that all the missing have not been identified. I am sure the protesters are frustrated with lack of results just as Albanians in Kosovo are. Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
Roberto will go and defend the grave diggers himself, wow, that out to put hte fear of God into anyone. Too bad this Roberto doesn't show such zeal for unearthing butchered Serbian, and other minorities, bodies, like he does for Albanians and Bosnian muslims. This guy's bias, voids any credibility in his/her statements, I.e., ignore button.
"we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me)"
Let me help you roberto-the correct spelling is Dr.Ewa Klonowski.
Last week you botched her last name too.
If you're going to drop names in your constant attempts to appear important you should at least know how to spell the names.
Pitt, what a stupid comment. No one knows anything about the missing Serbs, and other minorities, yet you claim they are deserters from the JV, where in the world do you get this nonsense from? People like you are a disgrace to the human race, for your lack of compassion for anyone or anything, that is not your kind.
Roberto, my friend these people are not human.
(Rocky, 17 May 2010 21:25)
===================
No, they are very human. It's KLA who are not human and have done some very, very disgusting things.
So when a Serb asks for equal treatment, you say they are not human.
Im not sure what the Serb government is trying to achieve with this, gain sympathy from the west? Make the Serbs feel bad about what happened? Thats surely not going to work. This is a fair protest, they've been waiting 4 years and nothing has happened but the government is trying to excavate supposed albanian graves, look after your own first, shame on you Tadic!
which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
(Mr Rae, 18 May 2010 00:54)
Mr Rae,
At least Roberto is who he says he is. You, on the other hand, do not reveal your identity which leads me to believe you are from the Serb camp. Why do I say this? Simply because you fail to acknowledge that the preponderance of the killing, raping and destruction was done by your side. Don't bother to give me your statistics, as I've done lots of research on the Balkan wars of the 1990's.
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
(John, 18 May 2010 10:17)
Robert is not anonymous, you may google on Robert Russ, sometimes he writes his name as "Roberto Russo". Unlike with Joe whom we (my fault!) confused mightly with Joe Henel (both Joe-s have nothing to do with each other) here is no question.
Robert is a teacher in or near SF and I have pictures of him. So far so good, but I would like to see him joining unrelated travel forum(s), there are many (like "thorn tree", "trip advisor" and there is the world's #1, too - I intentionally did not mention). So he can see what is out there and ask. Things are never black and white. Besides if he desires - he can get invaluable help from local Serbs, Albanians and what-not.
If he choses to fight his own fight on his own - than it's fine, everyone has to decide what to do. But in order to fight - someone needs to determine who is the enemy.
Because if there is no enemy to fight, than it's like Donkey Hoxha (the different spelling of Don Quixote) who fights the cellular network transmission towers (or windmills): more harm than good.
'Too bad though that it seems most attention gets paid to Albanian victims while there are still multiple Serbian victims in mines that KFOR says we do not have the equipment to reach. Were they Albanian victims they would have been recovered several years ago.
(Jason, '
Wow, you are the biggest whistle blower since Deep Throat, please please wise sir provide us with some minimal proof.
Let the missery of these familys be over and done with and dont tease them with such kind of news and let them down with another fabrication.
I please wish that this cave does not have more "colours" just evidence to evil that needs to be punished.
Rocky, i think that you are missing the point that many of these people (at least the ones that you seem convinced to ignore) is that people were brutally killed by all sides. it is a crying shame when someone like roberto who poses as a well rounded, well educated person so clearly stands out as a biased angry person, constantly posing single sided arguments, offering no positive points with respect to peaces -- all the while signing autographs as the 'poster-boy' for world peace in his comfortable bayside condo. roberto has offered some very good ideas, but constantly incomplete. if he applied his thoughts towards both sides, to the civilians of both albanian and serbian ethnicity alike, to the families of those people that were killed be they christian, muslim or jew he would be seen as more of the rational person that he poses as.
i've generally found myself dissatisfied with roberto's one sided arguments, especially when he seems close to a good idea.
at this point in time, now that the dust has settled, when we would all hope for the veils of secrecy and atrocities to be removed, it is not just the serbs, nor the albanians, but also the robertos of the world that keep politicizing these issues.
if all of the mothers from all sides of the wars of the balkans of the past 20 years could get together to share their grief, they would see what it is that they have in common, and that it is so much stronger than anything their political leaders tell them is different about each other.
let all the bodies be found.
let all the truth come out.
let the politicians fade away and the hearts be mended.
rocky, it is not the people's fault, and many on this forum, on both sides are starting to see that reality. many people are starting to find this 'magical-middle-ground'. many people are realizing that there is less of a reason to fight one another than to support one another. however, no matter how rational we all think we are, and think that we can be the tiniest pressure can roll back all the forward progress if the grieving people are politicized; and that is exactly what is happening to all sides. it's more of a shame that in such a forum, far away from these realities, we cannot find this middle more often, that we must poke and prod one another to illicit a negative response only to politicize it ourselves.
as a so-called impartial person, by now roberto should have stumbled across the plethora of double-sided information to convince himself of the very high likelihood that this was in fact a total cluster-f*** and all sides conducted evil against all other sides. this has not appeared to be the case, which would lead one like myself, a interested non-biased party, to question his open mindedness and advertised lack of bias.
may we find that middle, shake hands and forgive the past of all of our enemies, whomever they happen to be.
"Association Coordinator Milorad Trifunović said that if investigations into the Kosovo sites do not begin, the Association will block the excavation near Raška."
we demand that the opening begin NOW, with total transparency (as dr ewa K has written to me), w total intl supervision. as soon as it is determined they are kosovar albanian (which is obvious but anyway) all of the remains need to be sent to kosova immediately, for dna work and match-ups with the data base. those bodies are not serbian property!!
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Did you contact Ewa? Here I ask you again - what is your plan, how would you influence her employer to switch her on that project? Besides, I was the one who played "Sherlock Holmes" for an hour or so to dig out her contact. More precisely, Gjergj Fishta did the lion share of the investigation, I was just "googling" like a mad.
You did not follow up with us on that. What's the plan?
----
we need to demand protection for the workers or go there and defend it ourselves, which i would do, personally.
thank you.
roberto
frisco
(roberto, 17 May 2010 17:59)
Than do it. I will help you as much as I can to taking you there and finding you a place to live - but in person I don't think it is useful for you to interfere with EULEX / government dealings simply because:
1) you are not a citizen. How it would be if Russian volunteers will re-inforce the Serbian site?
2) your knowledge of the circumstances is MINIMAL, you proved that here with the "k-elbows":
In my opinion it is much more useful for you to join the worlds #1 travel forum I wrote you about and learn as much as possible about the Balkans there. I wrote about it in my e-mail. Did you join it already? Costs nothing.
Roberto, I agree that this group is misguided in this instance but I cannot begin to imagine their pain. You say they are part of the problem. I say you are part of the problem. You come here to post in confrontation with your demands when what you want is substantially happening. I'll say it again, YOU are part of the problem not the solution.
It’s a clear proof that the people envolved direct or indirectly in the “wipe-out” operation against Kosovars in 1998-1999 don’t want the evidences of truth be revealed to the world… and to the Serbian public opinion.
They actually haven't found or dug up a single body. Note: "believed to be buried"
So having all the headlines of a mass grave when they haven't found anything is PURE anti-Serb propaganda.
They did this EXACT same thing last year or so and they found NOTHING at the site that was given headlines for a mass grave.
First they have to find SOME bodies. Then they have to give an estimate based on ACTUAL findings, if any.
They they have to get at least a FEW identities or clear clues of who they are and/or how and when they died.
I read that they dug up 8 bodies from a location in Kosovo where the KLA did operate - but no mainstream media pronouncement of a mass grave or claims about what ethnic group the dead were.
At least Roberto is who he says he is.
(Penny Pinto, 18 May 2010 02:06)
Says who? Roberto chooses to remain anonymous like most of us here. He claims to be an author but never gives his full (or real name). I am not knocking your argument one way or the other, but I do not put much stock in what Roberto says about himself, either.
Penny Pinto,
i'm very sorry that you seem to feel that i simply defend the serb atrocities. i do not, and have many times agreed that who ever has committed crimes should and must be punished. however, i do realize that crimes have been committed by all sides, and it is this argument that needs to be understood. i am 100% certain that serbs inflicted horrific crimes against albanians, croatians, bosniaks, as i am 100% sure that albanians committed horrific crimes against serbs, and bosniaks against croatians and serbs, and croatians against bosniaks and serbs. i'm also very certain of the crimes committed by the many previous generations against one an other.
i have constantly argued for the proverbial hatchet to be buried and for the people to move on.
as far as who am i am is concerned, i was unaware that i was the only anonymous poster here. please provide me and all of our colleagues here with your mailing address and i will gladly send you a photo graph of myself. i find it rather preposterous that you feel it necessary to imply such a thing.
and furthermore, i hope that in your studies, you've listened to all sides with open ears and open eyes. nothing in the balkans is ever one-sided, and based upon your self proclaimed expertise you too should know and fully understand this truism.
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