Serb, Croat, Hungarian leaders meet

Joe says..."You as a foreigner with a Hungarian passport, who want to see Greater-Croatia or Greater-Serbia starting at 0 km stone in Budapest has the least to say what Solyom should or should not do."

You don't hesitate to leave your nasty, caustic comments here and you are now telling someone else that they have "the least to say" because they are a foreigner. You, who lives in a gated community in the US?
What a piece of work!

Thanks goodness B92 frequently eliminates your nasty comments from these pages … to spare us from your constant berating and ranting.

Mr. Josipović, Mr. Tadić - welcome to Pécs, the proud home of FIDESZ voting scandal, shame of Europe. And that "sólyom" ("hawk") can take off and fly to the native place of some of his ancestors, somewhere in upper Ural. One-way ticket, please. His days are numbered anyway, can't imagine a worse president.

I am well aware, if not that Sorosian neo-liberal "SZDSZ", the insane Sólyom never would become who he is. They cleared the way for him to become the president.

This is (an other reason) we love SZDSZ that much. Good, they are gone but the destruction they created will be felt for years.

You don't hesitate to leave your nasty, caustic comments here and you are now telling someone else that they have "the least to say" because they are a foreigner. You, who lives in a gated community in the US?
What a piece of work!
(Roger7, 16 April 2010 19:13)

Roger - just to make sure it is clear - I not just have Hungarian citizenship but I had the right to it since my birth. That right was confirmed by the previous president of the country, Árpád Göncz, with a piece of paper he signed personally. Joe knows well that I am not a foreigner - his goal is to provoke.

On the other hand at least on one occasion Joe had a tongue slip and wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian. Later he told several times, he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork. He has neither voting rights, nor passport. He is a tourist at best. What kind of decency does reveal his last comment is up to judgement.

As for Serbia/Kosovo: he never was there and he does not intent to ever visit it.

He has several "incarnations" on other forums as "Joe Henel", violently anti-Hungarian. These incarnations can be easily traced at few common roots:

- a tongue-slip of "Joe-B92" regarding forefathers prosecuted by Soviets during the time Carpathian-Ukraina changed the ownership
- a certain "Henel József" is in public records as a victim in Mukachevo / Munkács area
- "Joe Henel" is proud not to have Hungarian citizenship, but he rarely fails to mention that he lived in two major "Western" countries before immigrating to USA
- "Joe-B92" boosts about his past in France and Germany
- The debate style of both "Joe"-s is nearly identical. They pull out some topic out of thin air and try to provoke as many people as possible. The "target" audience of "Joe Henel" is usually Hungarian nationalists. The "target" audience of "Joe-B92" are Serbs (by proxy) and Russians. Both(?) Joe-s boost regularly, how great Americans they are and mock the others. Neither target is sincere, they are only to serve his obsession with himself.

Recently there was a posting in a Hungarian forum, complaining that I am destroying what he builds, I did post it on B92 few days ago, here it is again. The relevant posting of "Joe Henel" alias as many now believe "Joe-B92" is under a new nick "XVF", posted at 11:04, 2010 Apr 14 (the third from the bottom):

http://tinyurl.com/ygby5zv

He has two identities on the YouTube, here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MagyarGondolkodo
http://www.youtube.com/user/19Joe67

He got pretty nasty well-deserved comments on Youtube. The best and the least nasty comment so far is from "Damaszkusz" - regardless of his own political views:

"A nyelvezet és a lekezelés amivel általában másokat minõsít, az Ön saját minõségének a tükre!"

Translation:

"The use of language and the way you put other people down is the mirror of your own quality"

This is the best what could be said.

I give about 95% probability that "Joe Henel" and "Joe-B92" are the same person: way to much overlapping.

If by any chance we would see a convincing proof that they aren't the same person - well, than apologies for mix-up, but than we would have an unbelievable case of mental twins with biographies overlapping to unbelievable degrees and also ancestors having matching names.

Hey Joe...

"A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small bundle."
Benjamin Franklin

Lenard,

You got an other "ljuta paprika" in your "Šopska"? Ouch, that hurts. Calm down, wash your hands ASAP and don't touch your eyes. Tea with cardamom helps, too.

And pass that "Šopska", I like it that way.

"Any problem with that? Anybody who can afford it can live there. If I remember correctly you are a second or third generation American but have a big hang up versus people who live in such communities. Just remember one thing: those people did not steal the money, they EARNED it. In the USA you can do the same. It is up to you!!
(Joe, 16 April 2010 20:42) "

Its none of any of our problem actually. The problem is entirely yours.
Why do you have to live behind those gates? Don't you trust your own fellow citizens outside enough? Did you do something wrong to be so apprehensive of them?

Oh, I am sure those people behind your gates did not steal for their money -- methinks many of them merely borrowed, to the hilt that is. And now ironically needed to be behind those gates anyway for their own protection from their foaming-in-the-mouth creditors!

"And that "sólyom" ("hawk") can take off and fly to the native place of some of his ancestors, somewhere in upper Ural".
Ataman

You as a foreigner with a Hungarian passport, who want to see Greater-Croatia or Greater-Serbia starting at 0 km stone in Budapest has the least to say what Solyom should or should not do.

I am well aware, if not that Sorosian neo-liberal "SZDSZ", the insane Sólyom never would become who he is. They cleared the way for him to become the president.

This is (an other reason) we love SZDSZ that much. Good, they are gone but the destruction they created will be felt for years.
(Ataman, 16 April 2010 13:22)

I plan to found a new SZDSZ for the next elections.Of course it will stand for Sünõk
Zergék Disznók Szövetsége.(Alliance of Pigs,Hedgehogs and Mountain Goats).
WE will welcome even those from overseas.
Anyway while I am not a big fan of Sólymos Laci I think SZDSZ has done millions of other things for which I"love" them so much.But UNcle Gabi was so nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NlmkJUYvhs&feature=related

Hungary will hold the presidency of the EU from 1 January 2011 to 30 June 2011. This is the reason why Serbia wants to have good relations with Hungary.

“In order to show that Serbia mourns for all the victims, I traveled to Srebrenica a year after I was first elected president of Serbia to stand with the survivors and bow to victims on the 10th anniversary of that terrible atrocity,” Tadić stated. Yes Tadić the EU train whistle is heard far in the distance. Say some more warm fuzzy words and platitudes with no substance to back them up. Maybe the train will be side tracked to pick up Serbia.

According to Tadić, this opened up a fierce national debate on the misdeeds of the Slobodan Milosevic regime and increased regional awareness of the critical importance of reconciliation, In short, reconciliation helps us take back our past from the nefarious fear-mongers still lurking in our midst,” he said. Humm Boris why are you supporting that nefarious monger Dodik and his continuation of destruction of Bosnia i Herzegovina Rep. Of the horrendous cruelty of the bloody Serb inspired Srpska Entity you keep quiet. On the soil of Bosnia i Herzegovina Republic should you not be condemning that cruel injustice in "Srpska"? Boris Serb words are very cheap but your actions speak loud and clear and of the Serbs programs for Bosnia. I guess it is very expedient for you to say some warm fuzzy words for the victims.
Tadić said that he is proud that the Serbian parliament recently adopted its resolution for condemning the crimes committed in Srebrenica in 1995, adding that he hopes that other regional parliaments would be adopting similar resolution in the future. Yes we will Boris we will condemn Serb and Serbia murderous aggression. Destructive cruelty of its actions on its unarmed neighbouring countries. For the purpose of creating greater Serbia at the expense of your neighbours. Still continues in the Srpska Entity that you do not condemn but supporting it with your continuing role. The Serb inspired war crimes in Srebrenica in the Republic of Bosnia i Herzegovina. We will go further and call them genocidal crimes like the war crime tribunal judgment says it was. It is wrong for the Serbs to profit off the horrendous criminality of its criminally inspired leaders. Their inspired ethnic cleansing and the 10s of thousands of murdered victims of the Serb criminals. Destruction of their neighbours liefs, of their familys ,homes and culture! Have you wondered Serbian president Boris why it is not accepted in the neighbouring country of Bosnia i Herzegovina your "apology" by so many victims of the Serbs?

"I not just have Hungarian citizenship but I had the right to it".
Ataman

Sure you are Hungarian on paper but not by your actions.We never had German sounding names in the family and did not lose family members in Carpatho-Ukraine. My forefathers there were all Greco-Catholics, originally a long time ago Orthodox and most likely Ruthans like the forefathers of all Gre-Catholics of that region.
So I don't have "tongue-slips", I don't have anything to hide.
As for me and tens of thausands of Hungarians in the New York area you are right: we don't have voting rights and Hungarian passport and will not have one since the Hungarian Consulate informed us in occasional dealings (when we requested some certificates) that we are not considered Hungarians anymore. So the reality is that there are thousands of Hungarians here, who are Hungarians in heart but not on paper and you, who are Hungarian on paper but would like to see a neighboring country up to Budapest. What would say ex-president Goncz about it? Would he still sign the papers for you?

As for me and tens of thausands of Hungarians in the New York area you are right: we don't have voting rights and Hungarian passport and will not have one since the Hungarian Consulate informed us in occasional dealings (when we requested some certificates) that we are not considered Hungarians anymore.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 14:49)

This is 100% against the current law and against the practice. I can't say more because I do not know your circumstances precisely. If you had at least one parent who was Hungarian citizen and if you EVER had Hungarian passport in your life - than it takes well under $200 to get all the paperwork for you. Besides - if you REALLY have a child (not just the two puli dogs) than he will get it regardless of his age.

In any case: you should start the procedure while you visit Hungary, not in the States. A while ago I let my Hungarian passport expire and I had no personal ID. The consulate in LA sent me straight to 3.14 (the pi-number). I rarely did see more incompetent people (that applies to voting).

Later - while visiting Hungary - I started the process with the Ministry of Interior. Not just that the fees were much lower, the entire process took shorter. Forget the stupid consulate, do it here.

What would say ex-president Goncz about it? Would he still sign the papers for you?
(Joe, 17 April 2010 14:49)

1) He would laugh and say, I am right - given the current and future criminals in the government.
2) I would ask him not to reveal what I think about Vlora Çitaku to my wife, otherwise I am in deep doo-doo
3) He would ask me, where to buy the best quality paint for that "sahovnica".
4) He would start to learn some Cyrillic, just to read what is on the other side of the stone.
5) (most importantly) - he probably would look for contractors to build be biggest-possible jail for the members of current and upcoming government. It has to be a pretty big jail.

"many of them merely borrowed, to the hilt that is"
lowe

Not exactly. It is called "old money". Most of them didn't have to borrow. They had it already. Also it is not an artificial new gated community like some of them in California or Florida for the "nouveaux rich".

"And now ironically needed to be behind those gates anyway for their own protection from their foaming-in-the-mouth creditors".

They don't need protection from creditors because as I described they didn't need to borrow. I know only one newcomer from humble social origins, who wanted to become one of the bigies here by borrowing about 2 millions on the top of the real estate market. He wanted to fix a big manson and flip it in short time with a big profit. Well his timing was pretty bad. I think he will be foreclosed pretty soon.

"A man wrapped up in himself".
Roger7

Interesting. In your earlier comment I was "berating and ranting". Now - a very sudden change - I am wrapped up in myself.

Instead of quoting famous people can you have your own objective opinions?

"wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian"
Ataman

Prove it!

"he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork"

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.
You see ALL Hungarians here have Hungarian birth certificates but are not recognized as Hungarians by Hungary. I explained this to my sisters, brother and relatives in Hungary and your case as a special "Hungarian". They told me that under Orban it will change. I doubt it very much.

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.

(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

Amateur problem solving skills.

In any case: you should start the procedure while you visit Hungary, not in the States. A while ago I let my Hungarian passport expire and I had no personal ID. The consulate in LA sent me straight to 3.14 (the pi-number). I rarely did see more incompetent people (that applies to voting).

Later - while visiting Hungary - I started the process with the Ministry of Interior. Not just that the fees were much lower, the entire process took shorter. Forget the stupid consulate, do it here.
(Ataman, 17 April 2010 18:47)

Professional problem solving skills.

"You, who lives in a gated community in the US?"
Roger7

Any problem with that? Anybody who can afford it can live there. If I remember correctly you are a second or third generation American but have a big hang up versus people who live in such communities. Just remember one thing: those people did not steal the money, they EARNED it. In the USA you can do the same. It is up to you!!

"Did you hear about quality of life? Well in some neighborhoods like this it is much better than in a slum.
In the US all people who can afford it live in better neighborhoods. This is even the case in Western Europe.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:37) "

Sure I have heard about "quality of life". I have heard about snobbery and pretensions too ...... Just make sure the likes of the mafia and al Qaeida don't infiltrate those gatekeepers of yours. Your kind would become sitting ducks then. And don't expect your slum dwellers to sympathize with you then!

"You, who lives in a gated community in the US"
Roger7

Anything wrong with that? What does it have to do with my comment or the subject of the article?

"Why do you have to live behind those gates"
lowe

Did you hear about quality of life? Well in some neighborhoods like this it is much better than in a slum.
In the US all people who can afford it live in better neighborhoods. This is even the case in Western Europe.

"Közigazgatási és Elektronikus Közszolgáltatások Központi Hivatala",
1094 Budapest, Balázs Béla utca 35.

(an other address is 1062 Budapest, Andrássy út 55, not sure why).
(Ataman, 18 April 2010 02:59)

As far as I know since last year only the one in Andrássy functions

I do have, Joe - like you or your wife. Every Hungarian citizen has a Hungarian birth certificate, even if they were born abroad. My wife was born in S/E Asia, she, too has a Hungarian birth certificate. The only difference is, these birth certificates (of naturalized or born abroad people) are issued by District V in Budapest only. The design is the same.

(Ataman, 18 April 2010 02:59)

Indeed.I myself was born in Poland and had a hungarian birth certificate as well.

"wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian"
Ataman

Prove it!
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

It is *** somewhere *** on B92. Sorry not to dig it out what was written in last 2-3 years. It happened on at least two occasions.

#1 You wrote in pretty angry tone that after having problem with the consulate you went berserk and they ( = consulate) can stuck that crappy citizenship where they want

#2 During an argument about some EU bureaucracy you wrote, you are proud not to be involved in EU politics. Don't forget: Hungary is part of EU.

-----

"he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork"

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.
You see ALL Hungarians here have Hungarian birth certificates but are not recognized as Hungarians by Hungary. I explained this to my sisters, brother and relatives in Hungary and your case as a special "Hungarian". They told me that under Orban it will change. I doubt it very much.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

It won't change. Precisely same happened with me - except that the reason was not the real estate. My passport expired for over a year and I had no national ID card. All I had was the birth certificate and the long-expired passport. Plus an old, invalid certificate of citizenship I could use as a toilet paper.

The consulate in LA played the same crap with us like the one in NY played with you. After calling them it was clear that they are totally useless and incompetent. If you EVER had a Hungarian passport and you have a copy of it or the expired original the procedure is very easy. It will indeed take about 6 months, but you do not need to wait for that in Hungary.

The name of the insanity is "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" - and it can't be avoided. You have to initiate it either at consular agency abroad (will be a pure nightmare, precisely what happened with you) or you can do it in person at

"Bevándorlási és Állampolgársági Hivatal"

http://www.bm-bah.hu

Here are their offices:

http://www.bm-bah.hu/kapcsolat.php

I think, the one at Üllõi út 82 is the best - they are VERY American-friendly, I can testify it.

So you go there with all your paperwork, they tell you what else is necessary (unlike the consulate!!!) and you pay 2000 Forint ($10) fee in "Okmánybélyeg" form.

You may use the address of your wife's parents, they will send everything where you want them to send. Nota Bene: once all paperwork is submitted, DO NOT FORGET TO ASK who does take care about your paperwork within the "Állampolgársági Fõosztály". That lady (or gentleman) is a very critical person to know - we did speed up the entire process by few friendly calls. Otherwise they are like bureaucrats everywhere else and are people, can make mistakes, etc.

It is very important to do all this directly, avoiding the consulate at any cost. I can't repeat how useless the consulate is.

Once you receive your citizen certification it is valid for only a certain period of time. If you have your nerves made of steel feel free to apply for the passport at the consulate. That is insanity - but you can do and, inshallah - maybe you will receive that passport.

Better idea: travel to Hungary again, take the (presumably positive) result of "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" to an other office, called

"Közigazgatási és Elektronikus Közszolgáltatások Központi Hivatala",
1094 Budapest, Balázs Béla utca 35.

(an other address is 1062 Budapest, Andrássy út 55, not sure why).

http://www.nyilvantarto.hu/kekkh/kozos/index.php

pay them the fee (now 14000 Forint or about $70) and get your passport. If you want to get it within 5 days you pay extra "urgency fee", they will tell you how much and you can get it in person within 5 days.

-----

she had one not like you
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

I do have, Joe - like you or your wife. Every Hungarian citizen has a Hungarian birth certificate, even if they were born abroad. My wife was born in S/E Asia, she, too has a Hungarian birth certificate. The only difference is, these birth certificates (of naturalized or born abroad people) are issued by District V in Budapest only. The design is the same.

-----

The entire procedure is probably more difficult to describe than to go through. What is good: the people at Üllõi út 82 are extremely friendly and if it is missing anything they will help you out. The consulates are totally useless, incompetent and just can't deal with the procedure.

The most important is to initiate the "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" in Hungary. Once you submitted all the paperwork the "Bevándorlási és Állampolgársági Hivatal" does need in person at Üllõi út 82 everything looks like a piece of cake. You can call them from the States on SkyPe with a friendly "sürgetés".... but if you would submit the paperwork through the consulate you will never know, are all the papers in good order or you need somewhat else. You will land in a labyrinth and deal with zombies of the consulate. At least that was my experience in LA - but we quickly switched the strategy.

Finally: all this insanity came in the effect after Hungary joined the EU. Much bad can be said about the politics of the country - however with EU and in particular after 9/11/2001 the passport / citizenship certificates became a nightmare almost everywhere.

Professional problem solving skills.
(Ügyetlen süni, 17 April 2010 21:16)

(Un)fortunately had to go few times through a much worse logistics nightmare. In retrospect is wasn't even professional because I shouldn't let the passport expire to begin with. But if that happens - indeed - God should have mercy on you. Have no idea who "invented" that procedure, probably a re-incarnation of Tomaso Torquemada or Marquis de Sade. Always easy to blame EU and 9/11.

Hungary will hold the presidency of the EU from 1 January 2011 to 30 June 2011. This is the reason why Serbia wants to have good relations with Hungary.

“In order to show that Serbia mourns for all the victims, I traveled to Srebrenica a year after I was first elected president of Serbia to stand with the survivors and bow to victims on the 10th anniversary of that terrible atrocity,” Tadić stated. Yes Tadić the EU train whistle is heard far in the distance. Say some more warm fuzzy words and platitudes with no substance to back them up. Maybe the train will be side tracked to pick up Serbia.

According to Tadić, this opened up a fierce national debate on the misdeeds of the Slobodan Milosevic regime and increased regional awareness of the critical importance of reconciliation, In short, reconciliation helps us take back our past from the nefarious fear-mongers still lurking in our midst,” he said. Humm Boris why are you supporting that nefarious monger Dodik and his continuation of destruction of Bosnia i Herzegovina Rep. Of the horrendous cruelty of the bloody Serb inspired Srpska Entity you keep quiet. On the soil of Bosnia i Herzegovina Republic should you not be condemning that cruel injustice in "Srpska"? Boris Serb words are very cheap but your actions speak loud and clear and of the Serbs programs for Bosnia. I guess it is very expedient for you to say some warm fuzzy words for the victims.
Tadić said that he is proud that the Serbian parliament recently adopted its resolution for condemning the crimes committed in Srebrenica in 1995, adding that he hopes that other regional parliaments would be adopting similar resolution in the future. Yes we will Boris we will condemn Serb and Serbia murderous aggression. Destructive cruelty of its actions on its unarmed neighbouring countries. For the purpose of creating greater Serbia at the expense of your neighbours. Still continues in the Srpska Entity that you do not condemn but supporting it with your continuing role. The Serb inspired war crimes in Srebrenica in the Republic of Bosnia i Herzegovina. We will go further and call them genocidal crimes like the war crime tribunal judgment says it was. It is wrong for the Serbs to profit off the horrendous criminality of its criminally inspired leaders. Their inspired ethnic cleansing and the 10s of thousands of murdered victims of the Serb criminals. Destruction of their neighbours liefs, of their familys ,homes and culture! Have you wondered Serbian president Boris why it is not accepted in the neighbouring country of Bosnia i Herzegovina your "apology" by so many victims of the Serbs?

"And that "sólyom" ("hawk") can take off and fly to the native place of some of his ancestors, somewhere in upper Ural".
Ataman

You as a foreigner with a Hungarian passport, who want to see Greater-Croatia or Greater-Serbia starting at 0 km stone in Budapest has the least to say what Solyom should or should not do.

"You, who lives in a gated community in the US?"
Roger7

Any problem with that? Anybody who can afford it can live there. If I remember correctly you are a second or third generation American but have a big hang up versus people who live in such communities. Just remember one thing: those people did not steal the money, they EARNED it. In the USA you can do the same. It is up to you!!

"I not just have Hungarian citizenship but I had the right to it".
Ataman

Sure you are Hungarian on paper but not by your actions.We never had German sounding names in the family and did not lose family members in Carpatho-Ukraine. My forefathers there were all Greco-Catholics, originally a long time ago Orthodox and most likely Ruthans like the forefathers of all Gre-Catholics of that region.
So I don't have "tongue-slips", I don't have anything to hide.
As for me and tens of thausands of Hungarians in the New York area you are right: we don't have voting rights and Hungarian passport and will not have one since the Hungarian Consulate informed us in occasional dealings (when we requested some certificates) that we are not considered Hungarians anymore. So the reality is that there are thousands of Hungarians here, who are Hungarians in heart but not on paper and you, who are Hungarian on paper but would like to see a neighboring country up to Budapest. What would say ex-president Goncz about it? Would he still sign the papers for you?

"You, who lives in a gated community in the US"
Roger7

Anything wrong with that? What does it have to do with my comment or the subject of the article?

Joe says..."You as a foreigner with a Hungarian passport, who want to see Greater-Croatia or Greater-Serbia starting at 0 km stone in Budapest has the least to say what Solyom should or should not do."

You don't hesitate to leave your nasty, caustic comments here and you are now telling someone else that they have "the least to say" because they are a foreigner. You, who lives in a gated community in the US?
What a piece of work!

Thanks goodness B92 frequently eliminates your nasty comments from these pages … to spare us from your constant berating and ranting.

"wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian"
Ataman

Prove it!

"he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork"

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.
You see ALL Hungarians here have Hungarian birth certificates but are not recognized as Hungarians by Hungary. I explained this to my sisters, brother and relatives in Hungary and your case as a special "Hungarian". They told me that under Orban it will change. I doubt it very much.

"Why do you have to live behind those gates"
lowe

Did you hear about quality of life? Well in some neighborhoods like this it is much better than in a slum.
In the US all people who can afford it live in better neighborhoods. This is even the case in Western Europe.

"A man wrapped up in himself".
Roger7

Interesting. In your earlier comment I was "berating and ranting". Now - a very sudden change - I am wrapped up in myself.

Instead of quoting famous people can you have your own objective opinions?

Mr. Josipović, Mr. Tadić - welcome to Pécs, the proud home of FIDESZ voting scandal, shame of Europe. And that "sólyom" ("hawk") can take off and fly to the native place of some of his ancestors, somewhere in upper Ural. One-way ticket, please. His days are numbered anyway, can't imagine a worse president.

I am well aware, if not that Sorosian neo-liberal "SZDSZ", the insane Sólyom never would become who he is. They cleared the way for him to become the president.

This is (an other reason) we love SZDSZ that much. Good, they are gone but the destruction they created will be felt for years.

Hey Joe...

"A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small bundle."
Benjamin Franklin

"many of them merely borrowed, to the hilt that is"
lowe

Not exactly. It is called "old money". Most of them didn't have to borrow. They had it already. Also it is not an artificial new gated community like some of them in California or Florida for the "nouveaux rich".

"And now ironically needed to be behind those gates anyway for their own protection from their foaming-in-the-mouth creditors".

They don't need protection from creditors because as I described they didn't need to borrow. I know only one newcomer from humble social origins, who wanted to become one of the bigies here by borrowing about 2 millions on the top of the real estate market. He wanted to fix a big manson and flip it in short time with a big profit. Well his timing was pretty bad. I think he will be foreclosed pretty soon.

What would say ex-president Goncz about it? Would he still sign the papers for you?
(Joe, 17 April 2010 14:49)

1) He would laugh and say, I am right - given the current and future criminals in the government.
2) I would ask him not to reveal what I think about Vlora Çitaku to my wife, otherwise I am in deep doo-doo
3) He would ask me, where to buy the best quality paint for that "sahovnica".
4) He would start to learn some Cyrillic, just to read what is on the other side of the stone.
5) (most importantly) - he probably would look for contractors to build be biggest-possible jail for the members of current and upcoming government. It has to be a pretty big jail.

I am well aware, if not that Sorosian neo-liberal "SZDSZ", the insane Sólyom never would become who he is. They cleared the way for him to become the president.

This is (an other reason) we love SZDSZ that much. Good, they are gone but the destruction they created will be felt for years.
(Ataman, 16 April 2010 13:22)

I plan to found a new SZDSZ for the next elections.Of course it will stand for Sünõk
Zergék Disznók Szövetsége.(Alliance of Pigs,Hedgehogs and Mountain Goats).
WE will welcome even those from overseas.
Anyway while I am not a big fan of Sólymos Laci I think SZDSZ has done millions of other things for which I"love" them so much.But UNcle Gabi was so nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NlmkJUYvhs&feature=related

You don't hesitate to leave your nasty, caustic comments here and you are now telling someone else that they have "the least to say" because they are a foreigner. You, who lives in a gated community in the US?
What a piece of work!
(Roger7, 16 April 2010 19:13)

Roger - just to make sure it is clear - I not just have Hungarian citizenship but I had the right to it since my birth. That right was confirmed by the previous president of the country, Árpád Göncz, with a piece of paper he signed personally. Joe knows well that I am not a foreigner - his goal is to provoke.

On the other hand at least on one occasion Joe had a tongue slip and wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian. Later he told several times, he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork. He has neither voting rights, nor passport. He is a tourist at best. What kind of decency does reveal his last comment is up to judgement.

As for Serbia/Kosovo: he never was there and he does not intent to ever visit it.

He has several "incarnations" on other forums as "Joe Henel", violently anti-Hungarian. These incarnations can be easily traced at few common roots:

- a tongue-slip of "Joe-B92" regarding forefathers prosecuted by Soviets during the time Carpathian-Ukraina changed the ownership
- a certain "Henel József" is in public records as a victim in Mukachevo / Munkács area
- "Joe Henel" is proud not to have Hungarian citizenship, but he rarely fails to mention that he lived in two major "Western" countries before immigrating to USA
- "Joe-B92" boosts about his past in France and Germany
- The debate style of both "Joe"-s is nearly identical. They pull out some topic out of thin air and try to provoke as many people as possible. The "target" audience of "Joe Henel" is usually Hungarian nationalists. The "target" audience of "Joe-B92" are Serbs (by proxy) and Russians. Both(?) Joe-s boost regularly, how great Americans they are and mock the others. Neither target is sincere, they are only to serve his obsession with himself.

Recently there was a posting in a Hungarian forum, complaining that I am destroying what he builds, I did post it on B92 few days ago, here it is again. The relevant posting of "Joe Henel" alias as many now believe "Joe-B92" is under a new nick "XVF", posted at 11:04, 2010 Apr 14 (the third from the bottom):

http://tinyurl.com/ygby5zv

He has two identities on the YouTube, here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MagyarGondolkodo
http://www.youtube.com/user/19Joe67

He got pretty nasty well-deserved comments on Youtube. The best and the least nasty comment so far is from "Damaszkusz" - regardless of his own political views:

"A nyelvezet és a lekezelés amivel általában másokat minõsít, az Ön saját minõségének a tükre!"

Translation:

"The use of language and the way you put other people down is the mirror of your own quality"

This is the best what could be said.

I give about 95% probability that "Joe Henel" and "Joe-B92" are the same person: way to much overlapping.

If by any chance we would see a convincing proof that they aren't the same person - well, than apologies for mix-up, but than we would have an unbelievable case of mental twins with biographies overlapping to unbelievable degrees and also ancestors having matching names.

Lenard,

You got an other "ljuta paprika" in your "Šopska"? Ouch, that hurts. Calm down, wash your hands ASAP and don't touch your eyes. Tea with cardamom helps, too.

And pass that "Šopska", I like it that way.

"Any problem with that? Anybody who can afford it can live there. If I remember correctly you are a second or third generation American but have a big hang up versus people who live in such communities. Just remember one thing: those people did not steal the money, they EARNED it. In the USA you can do the same. It is up to you!!
(Joe, 16 April 2010 20:42) "

Its none of any of our problem actually. The problem is entirely yours.
Why do you have to live behind those gates? Don't you trust your own fellow citizens outside enough? Did you do something wrong to be so apprehensive of them?

Oh, I am sure those people behind your gates did not steal for their money -- methinks many of them merely borrowed, to the hilt that is. And now ironically needed to be behind those gates anyway for their own protection from their foaming-in-the-mouth creditors!

As for me and tens of thausands of Hungarians in the New York area you are right: we don't have voting rights and Hungarian passport and will not have one since the Hungarian Consulate informed us in occasional dealings (when we requested some certificates) that we are not considered Hungarians anymore.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 14:49)

This is 100% against the current law and against the practice. I can't say more because I do not know your circumstances precisely. If you had at least one parent who was Hungarian citizen and if you EVER had Hungarian passport in your life - than it takes well under $200 to get all the paperwork for you. Besides - if you REALLY have a child (not just the two puli dogs) than he will get it regardless of his age.

In any case: you should start the procedure while you visit Hungary, not in the States. A while ago I let my Hungarian passport expire and I had no personal ID. The consulate in LA sent me straight to 3.14 (the pi-number). I rarely did see more incompetent people (that applies to voting).

Later - while visiting Hungary - I started the process with the Ministry of Interior. Not just that the fees were much lower, the entire process took shorter. Forget the stupid consulate, do it here.

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.

(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

Amateur problem solving skills.

In any case: you should start the procedure while you visit Hungary, not in the States. A while ago I let my Hungarian passport expire and I had no personal ID. The consulate in LA sent me straight to 3.14 (the pi-number). I rarely did see more incompetent people (that applies to voting).

Later - while visiting Hungary - I started the process with the Ministry of Interior. Not just that the fees were much lower, the entire process took shorter. Forget the stupid consulate, do it here.
(Ataman, 17 April 2010 18:47)

Professional problem solving skills.

"wrote that he is proud not to be a Hungarian"
Ataman

Prove it!
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

It is *** somewhere *** on B92. Sorry not to dig it out what was written in last 2-3 years. It happened on at least two occasions.

#1 You wrote in pretty angry tone that after having problem with the consulate you went berserk and they ( = consulate) can stuck that crappy citizenship where they want

#2 During an argument about some EU bureaucracy you wrote, you are proud not to be involved in EU politics. Don't forget: Hungary is part of EU.

-----

"he was unable to complete and submit the proper paperwork"

I described the fact that my wife needed urgently a simple attestation to certify that she can be considered a Hungarian while buying the other 50% of her parents home in Hungary. The Consulate said on the phone "no problem" but please fill out an 8 page form. She did. And again this was not for a passport application. She even sent a copy of her Hungarian birth certificate (she had one not like you).
After 2 days we heard a sudden burocratic change: the form has to be sent to Budapest after all for consideration and the decision - positive or negative - can take up to 3 or 4 months.
You see ALL Hungarians here have Hungarian birth certificates but are not recognized as Hungarians by Hungary. I explained this to my sisters, brother and relatives in Hungary and your case as a special "Hungarian". They told me that under Orban it will change. I doubt it very much.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

It won't change. Precisely same happened with me - except that the reason was not the real estate. My passport expired for over a year and I had no national ID card. All I had was the birth certificate and the long-expired passport. Plus an old, invalid certificate of citizenship I could use as a toilet paper.

The consulate in LA played the same crap with us like the one in NY played with you. After calling them it was clear that they are totally useless and incompetent. If you EVER had a Hungarian passport and you have a copy of it or the expired original the procedure is very easy. It will indeed take about 6 months, but you do not need to wait for that in Hungary.

The name of the insanity is "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" - and it can't be avoided. You have to initiate it either at consular agency abroad (will be a pure nightmare, precisely what happened with you) or you can do it in person at

"Bevándorlási és Állampolgársági Hivatal"

http://www.bm-bah.hu

Here are their offices:

http://www.bm-bah.hu/kapcsolat.php

I think, the one at Üllõi út 82 is the best - they are VERY American-friendly, I can testify it.

So you go there with all your paperwork, they tell you what else is necessary (unlike the consulate!!!) and you pay 2000 Forint ($10) fee in "Okmánybélyeg" form.

You may use the address of your wife's parents, they will send everything where you want them to send. Nota Bene: once all paperwork is submitted, DO NOT FORGET TO ASK who does take care about your paperwork within the "Állampolgársági Fõosztály". That lady (or gentleman) is a very critical person to know - we did speed up the entire process by few friendly calls. Otherwise they are like bureaucrats everywhere else and are people, can make mistakes, etc.

It is very important to do all this directly, avoiding the consulate at any cost. I can't repeat how useless the consulate is.

Once you receive your citizen certification it is valid for only a certain period of time. If you have your nerves made of steel feel free to apply for the passport at the consulate. That is insanity - but you can do and, inshallah - maybe you will receive that passport.

Better idea: travel to Hungary again, take the (presumably positive) result of "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" to an other office, called

"Közigazgatási és Elektronikus Közszolgáltatások Központi Hivatala",
1094 Budapest, Balázs Béla utca 35.

(an other address is 1062 Budapest, Andrássy út 55, not sure why).

http://www.nyilvantarto.hu/kekkh/kozos/index.php

pay them the fee (now 14000 Forint or about $70) and get your passport. If you want to get it within 5 days you pay extra "urgency fee", they will tell you how much and you can get it in person within 5 days.

-----

she had one not like you
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:25)

I do have, Joe - like you or your wife. Every Hungarian citizen has a Hungarian birth certificate, even if they were born abroad. My wife was born in S/E Asia, she, too has a Hungarian birth certificate. The only difference is, these birth certificates (of naturalized or born abroad people) are issued by District V in Budapest only. The design is the same.

-----

The entire procedure is probably more difficult to describe than to go through. What is good: the people at Üllõi út 82 are extremely friendly and if it is missing anything they will help you out. The consulates are totally useless, incompetent and just can't deal with the procedure.

The most important is to initiate the "Állampolgársági Vizsgálat" in Hungary. Once you submitted all the paperwork the "Bevándorlási és Állampolgársági Hivatal" does need in person at Üllõi út 82 everything looks like a piece of cake. You can call them from the States on SkyPe with a friendly "sürgetés".... but if you would submit the paperwork through the consulate you will never know, are all the papers in good order or you need somewhat else. You will land in a labyrinth and deal with zombies of the consulate. At least that was my experience in LA - but we quickly switched the strategy.

Finally: all this insanity came in the effect after Hungary joined the EU. Much bad can be said about the politics of the country - however with EU and in particular after 9/11/2001 the passport / citizenship certificates became a nightmare almost everywhere.

Professional problem solving skills.
(Ügyetlen süni, 17 April 2010 21:16)

(Un)fortunately had to go few times through a much worse logistics nightmare. In retrospect is wasn't even professional because I shouldn't let the passport expire to begin with. But if that happens - indeed - God should have mercy on you. Have no idea who "invented" that procedure, probably a re-incarnation of Tomaso Torquemada or Marquis de Sade. Always easy to blame EU and 9/11.

"Did you hear about quality of life? Well in some neighborhoods like this it is much better than in a slum.
In the US all people who can afford it live in better neighborhoods. This is even the case in Western Europe.
(Joe, 17 April 2010 19:37) "

Sure I have heard about "quality of life". I have heard about snobbery and pretensions too ...... Just make sure the likes of the mafia and al Qaeida don't infiltrate those gatekeepers of yours. Your kind would become sitting ducks then. And don't expect your slum dwellers to sympathize with you then!

"Közigazgatási és Elektronikus Közszolgáltatások Központi Hivatala",
1094 Budapest, Balázs Béla utca 35.

(an other address is 1062 Budapest, Andrássy út 55, not sure why).
(Ataman, 18 April 2010 02:59)

As far as I know since last year only the one in Andrássy functions

I do have, Joe - like you or your wife. Every Hungarian citizen has a Hungarian birth certificate, even if they were born abroad. My wife was born in S/E Asia, she, too has a Hungarian birth certificate. The only difference is, these birth certificates (of naturalized or born abroad people) are issued by District V in Budapest only. The design is the same.

(Ataman, 18 April 2010 02:59)

Indeed.I myself was born in Poland and had a hungarian birth certificate as well.