Vatican on Kosovo and SPC

(PRN, 13 April 2010, 10:51)

Spoken like a true Albanian troll. Where is your evidence to prove that Kosovo is Albanian; no buildings older than 20 years? In fact not even cave painting to prove these ludicrous statements.
I see little of Serbia disintegrating, but Albanians are slowly dying in Kosovo – no jobs, no hope but to buy Serbian passports and flee that Albanian paradise. The best part is that your allies, the US/EU, are not even lifting a finger to help you, ha, ha, ha.
Albanians are best described in history as Turkish camp followers. They arrived with the Turks but now claim ancient connections with the region that no other reputable historian would even dream of corroborating.

Hey, where are those KP/EU/EULEX/NATO/KFOR/US/Albanian army border guards along the so called Serbian/Kosovo border that you constantly rant on about?

"Important historical, cultural and religious monuments are being destroyed in Kosovo," he said of the ethnic Albanian attacks on Serb heritage.

So true! Savage behaviour. It's beyond me how the Americans and Europe can turn a blind eye to this kind of brutality towards Christianity. One reason could be the fact that most of Europe is lost to islam. Shame!

PRN: I challenged you on this before and you didn't have the courage to reply. Explain how you intend to "return" Nis, Kragujevac and Novi Pazar to "Illyria". What do you intend to do with the people who live there now?

PRN..."papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above."
I'm not sure I understand the connection between Ancient Illyria (and thus your whole historical argument) and land ownership papers in Arabic? Didn't Illyria predate the Ottoman? Wouldn't Illyrians have ownership documents in Illyrian or perhaps Greek or Latin?
Documents in Arabic simply seem to further cement the notion that Albanians were migrants that came in with the Ottoman Empire.
Interestingly enough is that Serbian Kings of Antiquity had full legal ownership of Kosovo, on paper, and via the structures and monuments peppered across the country side. It is also an historical fact that Serbian land was returned once the Ottoman Empire was removed from the Balkan Peninsula. This land was returned to Serbia in accordance with the treaties signed by Kosovo's current signatories' predecessor governments.
Again, not sure that ownership papers written in Arabic demonstrate anything by family ownership during a period in history when this part of the world was further occupied by an invading nation. To use this approach to demonstrate that Serbians are occupying Illyria one would then require ownership documents written up in Illyrian, Greek, and Latin dating back to the time when Illyria was a province.
BTW, this article was about the Roman Catholic Church and the destruction of Serbian Orthodox religious monuments and structures within Kosovo. It would also seem that you have no ability to empathies with anyone else. You wish the world to cry for you when crimes are committed against you, yet flaunt similar crimes against others and also seem to think that it's reasonable behavior. This is the greatest shame one can imagine.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

Vatican respects Serbian church and is against savagery of albanians.And your answer to that is wish to steal more land and destroy more christian shrines..
Dude-taliban mentality will never take Serbian land..

PRN:- you should stop listening to your Great-Grandfather. He doesn't sound too informed.

"A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners"

-PRN

Too funny. You know there are resolutions every year or so for Vermont to secede from the USA? Look how far that gets them...

Look silly, if the US were to do such a thing - they would be opening up their own Pandora's box because as recently as the early 20th century my government has committed real genocide on the Native American population and stolen their land. You think we are going to give that back? Keep dreaming.

Anyway, ancient history be damned - it is irrelevant today. We can see real proof of Serbian history all over Kosovo that is more recent. Your Illyrian connection is dubious at best and since your (claimed) ancestors never learned to read or write there is no PROOF of anything. Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.

PRN, you made my day! =)

perhaps you should tell us what you are consuming, since the effects are really great!

entertainment at it´s best!

What is this rubish?

Kosovo along with Nis, Novi Pazar, Kragujevac, and Skopje is the cradle of Illyria.

The 6-7 centuries of occupation has ended, now we are enjoying the fresh breth of freedom and democracy. The rest is history.

Every rational individual knows that Kosovo was NEVER Serbian, unless occupied by FORCE.

We welcomed Serb (and other slavs) refuges in 7th century, who later instead of expressing gratification that turned violent on us, by using terror and occupying our land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.

“A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners… (PRN, 13 April 2010 14:42)”

I can confirm that yes indeedy, the Albanians are lining up as we speak to get their reparations from the government. Right behind the Native American Indians and African Americans. Should be any second now.

Good to see you're finding sometime to tell something else apart from child molastation and endless sex scandals that are unearthing as we speak.

What else?
(bali, 13 April 2010 11:33)

This come's from a religion that promotes the selling of your own children for wives and sex from as young as 5 or 6. Hypocrisy at the highest level. Only last week a pre-teen Yemeni Muslim girl died giving birth. Recently a 12 year old in Saudi divorced her 67 year old Husband.

Some of the writings here are totally crazy.

A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners (the descendents of the owners who many have also papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above.

Once this process materialises Albanians will return to those land and gradually things may turn unpredictably in the victims favour.

...and so the story continues....

I hope the above satifies your concern.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 14:42)

Shall we give North Africa back to the Visigoths or Mars back to the Martians?

PRNs comments are getting more and more funny every day! Go on, it's a bizarre theatre, very entertaining :-)

Dear PRN,

Kosovo is not independent, is not a UN member state, it only declared itself as independend, and is recognized by some dozens of countries so far and not "by the whole civilized world"

This is a natural evolution.
PRN

Well mr "Darwin"! You forgot to mention that this resolution in the US senate, that will enable you to steal more territory that doesn't belon to you, also mentioned that the native americans, the indians, will get back the entire continent of America since they are "the original owners". Sorry to inform you but you don't even own the clothes on your back. Its a donation from the rest of Europe.

PRN: I challenged you on this before and you didn't have the courage to reply. Explain how you intend to "return" Nis, Kragujevac and Novi Pazar to "Illyria". What do you intend to do with the people who live there now?
(Dave, 13 April 2010 12:05)

Dear Dave,

This is a natural evolution. Would any Serb in 1985, 1986, 1987 etc belived that Kosovo would be independent and recognised by the whole developed world.

My answer is extremly few or NONE.

GOD knows and sees unjustices in the past and acts accordingly by punishing wrong-doers. For Serbia this is just the beginning.

A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners (the descendents of the owners who many have also papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above.

Once this process materialises Albanians will return to those land and gradually things may turn unpredictably in the victims favour.

...and so the story continues....

I hope the above satifies your concern.

PRN:Can you please explain just what gives US Sentate the right to create and implement the resolution in respect to Nis, Novi Pazar & Kragujevac in particular when we speak of repatriation and return of land?! - And what are the benefits and for whom and why and in what century! - Thanks

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

I betcha this newcomer got a voodoo doll of Serbia, and be sticking her with his Darndanian needle of disintegration.

What you plannin' there PRN? More destruction of Serbia's and my Christian heritage? Faster disintegration of Serbia's bones in graves of their loved ones from you digging them out and messin with them?? Beat on some more old folks and burn them in their homes? Plan another major Serbian harvesting festival? Blow up another bus of innocent folk? Attack the North and commit "suicide"?

Let me give you a Texas-size piece of brotherly word here, Mr. Full of hate and revenge:

I can see that these here Serbs don't give a dang care in this world what that man that got his watch stolen done told you. If he told you that he a Texan, he lied! If he told you that Kosovo is Kosova, he done lied to you again! The brother is a politician PRN, and I forgive him for everything I think he ever did to me, and I still love him, because he is my brother and because Texas LOVES everybody same!
And you should too, brother PRN. You should.
Because brother PRN things in life don't always happen as people plan. That should be easy enough for any human folk from any part of the creation to understand.

As long as "you" be teaching and encouraging your young'ins to HATE, HURT, and TERRORIZE the helpless, and to differentiate the right of life between Albanian cats and dogs and Serb cats and dogs, and as long as you have a Government with it's core of Terrorist Narco Traffickers-- YOUR--disintegration is imminent, not Serbs.

It is impossible to know the Truth or have wisdom when one is full of hate and bent on revenge,Mr. PRN.

Your world views towards your brothers and sisters have set you back so far, that you see terror against civility as your only way out of the creation that y'all chose. You are full of jealousy and hate, and you will continue to be jealous and hateful--until you choose to turn towards Love and learn to forgive.

Good to see you're finding sometime to tell something else apart from child molastation and endless sex scandals that are unearthing as we speak.

What else?

Doesn't illyrian have a latin background? How does the Albanian language resemble Latin in any way??

What are resounding rejection of kosovo! His mention of the destruction of Serbian churches and culture in kosovo is a rarity in europe and never said in america. Good Job!

Ment, I am well aware of the the difference between religion and culture. I usually respond to a specific statement on here which is the case today. If you a wee more intelligent you would have noticed such and not embarrased yourself by stating a complete irrelevance.
Now you mention it though it why you said you dont give a damn about religion then commented on a religiously orientated thread bewilders me. Maybe I struck I a nerve. It is actually your holy book that refences to the underage and not contained to Arabs to which you 'PRESUMED'.

Illyrian land? Lets bring pangea back as well!

"The cardinal also spoke in favor of encouraging reconciliation between Serbs and Croats."

When will the "Holy" Vatican admit their role in WWII?

Maybe is better for Vatican officials to look their "internal problems", the child molestations.

I'm no expert on religion but it's downright absurd how you Serbs try to link ALL ethnic Albanians no matter the nationality (Kosovar, Albanian, Macedonian, etc) to Taliban, Al Quida, or any other fundamentalist extremists.

Do you really believe that anyone takes you seriously when you make such claims?

Think about it, WEST this, NATO that, Islamics this....there is got to be a point when you wake up and realize that you have to take accountability for your actions -- specifically Slobodan Milosevic.

Mr Rae

I couldn't agree more with your posting.There isn't a shred of evidence as to the relation between Albanians and Illyrians.

The world doesn't possess a single text written in Illyrian.We do possess two short texts which are presumed to be Thracian still not encrypted.The linguists which tried to interpret those Thracian scripts concluded that both of them read from bottom to the top produced perfect Greek phrases.

Some linguistic arguments are more closely linked to geography.We do know the names of places from the Roman times.Since the modern names are derivatives of Slavic forms of names one would suggest that Albanians entered this area only after the Slavic migrations in the seventh century.

vatican is pushing hard for a clash of religions in albanian lands,because they hope to gain from this and convert albanians from muslims in christians!
This minister of the Vatican should learn how the father of mother teresa was killed and why,should learn who killed our Fathers in kosova!
Let him have a visit to Genezzano church on the feast day of Our Lady of Good Counsel, April 26at Roma, She will help him.
after father kcira,comes this statement about the solidarity of the roman catholic with serbian church!May our Lady of good counsel have mercy for them.and we hope in her amazing grace,not in those we bless criminals.

Just curious: Does anybody here know who it was who first came up with this funny story about Albanians being the descendants of ancient Illyrians?

This kind of cardinals comments of true are worth nothing and have no influence whatsoever amongs the Albanians.
For Albanians he is just an ordinary men like every other men in this planet. The menkind can not be fooled as it used to be many centuries ago by those who pretend to talk "in the name of God/Allah".

the whole issue of destruction of churches is such a politicized red herring in the balkans, as serbia and serbian forces throughout the 90s (and beyond) are notorious for the destruction of catholic churches and of course mosques.

thanks -- roberto
frisco
(roberto, 13 April 2010 21:41)

Yes - what's that hoopla about all these Pravolsav churches? Answer: from non-religious point of view the frescoes. The number of remaining early medieval frescoes in the "East" is very small compared to what it used to be. "Thanks" to Mongols, Ottomans and similar.

What's the deal about the frescoes? The deal is, they mirror the medieval life in East/Southeast Europe, still much to research about. Much of the history was in the fact ALTERED later, often by Catholic church.

For instance - you probably never heard about the little romanesque church in Ócsa, near Budapest. It's still under archeologic research. It provides amazing material about the time of Conquest of Carpathian Basin and if one listens to the scientists working on the project - it turns known dogmas upside down. For instance about the history of YOUR people, Roberto.

Every act you speak about as "politicized red herring" (besides being as barbaric as it is) is throwing away a piece of YOUR OWN history. You just do not know it. Even if you are a teacher, you can't know everything.

Otherwise - feel free please to name me catholic churches and mosques of exceptional historical or architectural value destroyed in last 70 years by Serbs or Russians. Probably they do exist, but the number is relatively humble compared with what Americans did with Catholic churches and Albanians in 2004.

Because I have a neat list of major cathedrals totally destroyed by Americans in Germany. And the entire city of Dresden. Ever visited Hildesheim, Nürnberg, Köln? What happened with all these cute "Fachwerkhaus" in Hildesheim, for instance? Did you see how did Nürnberg look in 1946? A "collateral damage" maybe?

If you feel being American - please do not talk about destruction of catholic churches. You live in home made of glass and throw rocks. Throw them gently, because Hiroshima and Nagasaki is out there, too.

As for 2004 - I was recently in Prizren. I can take you there if you are in the area. In Russia feel free to visit Novgorod and ask about the "job" Germans did there between 1941 and 1943. Also look for "New Jerusalem" close to Moscow.

An other extremely endangered area is the Estern part of Turkey, where Armenia and a large part of Georgia used to be. Almost everything what is Armenian or Georgian there is gone. This is, too, part of your history - say "thanks" to Ottomans and turko-fascists like Kemal pasha.

Mikael C
========

Get off the high horse dude.

Serbs showed their cultural "sensitivity" towards others' monuments/mosques both in Kosovo and in Bosnia.

This is not to justify acts of destruction done by Albanians, but who are you to judge again?

As for this clown of a cardinal...who's so concerned about buildings...can he explain where was the concern when the SPC was fanning the flames (and still is) of Serb nationalism instead of staying busy doing "God's work?" Well, actually, judging by the present pope recent attitudes... no answer's needed.

David Jones
===========

Why I could give a damn about religions of any kind, I don't think you grasp the difference between culture and religion... Most Arabs may be Muslim but most Muslims are not Arabs...Get it?

Most of the comments here are ridiculous, referring anything to Illyria or even trying to rebudle against it is a waste of time.

This world we live in belongs to everyone, isn't the living standard of our people more important? (and I'm speaking of both the native-Serbs and Serbo-albanians). It seems to me that we choose to be blinded by what's really going on by referring to "history" or "his-story". When the real problem here is that people have no money, no food, un-safe in the areas they are living in and to top it all off, nothing in the near future seems be positive coming.

So please; before anyone opens they're mouth just think of the situation for what it is, be aware of what is happening. Who cares about the so-called "illyria" or "greater albania" or even "greater serbia" for that matter. Our people are suffering, and all we seem to be doing is baffling on about something that has never existed, doesn't exist and never will exist...so wake up

>>The Vatican has not recognized Kosovo out of consideration for the Serbian Orthodox Church, Cardinal Walter Casper was quoted as saying.>>

this is a stupid and reactionary declaration, coming from a church that is being led in increasingly conservative and irresponsible ways. i do not believe that it represents the thoughts of either most catholics or catholic leadership, and those who oppose such ugly and prejudiced statements, from inside the church, need to speak up.

the whole issue of destruction of churches is such a politicized red herring in the balkans, as serbia and serbian forces throughout the 90s (and beyond) are notorious for the destruction of catholic churches and of course mosques. all throughout their beloved "RS." you know, destroy holy places and put up a parking lot. it has been their signature throughout their (acc to Dayton) areas -- i have personally seen many such examples.

and yet their nationalist apologists insist that it is the "albanians" who are solely responsible for such crimes. it stinks wherever it occurs; but it does appear that almost the sole purpose of their churches is to claim the territory and then indulge in a martyr complex about them. churches as weapons of offense. how religious...

i do agree w louie (asd usual): serbs and albanians, or let's just say that all people (s) need to learn to live together, to co-exist! how, is the question. nobel peace prize indeed.

thanks -- roberto
frisco

land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

It looks that something else has long ago disintegrated...

Ment (al)

Mr. David J. Jones
===…==

If you use a 1500+ year old book as damnation on a religion, you should start looking at an even older one...the Bible. It's filled with examples of incest and all sorts of atrocities, many committed with the blessings of the "Almighty" and some by his own hand so to speak, marrying of the minors and polygamy being the least of the problems and slavery and genocide being the order of the day.

So according to your logic..., where does that leave the majority of the folks in the world TODAY?
(Ment, 13 April 2010 21:41)

BUT WE HAVE EVOLVED. A significant proportion of the Muslim fraternity have not.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija.

I respect the comments of Cardinal,not necessary agree with them!!!
His remarks are old news, situation in Kosova is much better now regarding the safety of religious places,after all the churches belong to our history as well!

It is just the old talk,I expected fom him more,maybe to find the formula so Albanians and Serbs can live together knowing that his views come from "Vatican" who recently had to deal with few of their own scandals!!!

On the positive note,The Kingdom of Swaziland recognised Kosova,according to some independent news agencies,it counts, even as small country it is!

Next step for us is to find the solution so all Kosovans can live together and that person would deserve the Noble Price!

Peace and Love!

Gëzuar and Živeli!

Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.
(Jason, 13 April 2010 15:50)
Give yourself a pat on the back Jason, your transition is finished. You have joined the other hardcore posters who are more interested in dishing out insults than making arguments.
(pss, 13 April 2010 19:06)

Wrong. Looks like you have learned to cut and paste, I see. Bravo. If you had included my comment in its entirety then you would have seen my logical and sensible rebuttal to one of the most illogical and hateful posters on here: PRN.

PRN and his troll buddy K-USA usually offer nothing more than rubbish on here yet you never seem to counter their statements - why is that?

Next step for us is to find the solution so all Kosovans can live together and that person would deserve the Noble Price!
(louie, 13 April 2010 17:19)

Don't look for one person. It does not exist because politicians are who they are.
The positive news: there are about two million of such persons in Kosovo alone and an other six or so in the rest of Serbia... they just do not know, they are.

I wish everyone share most of your views.

While I won't speak about two different countries - we can already speak about two different governments on Serbian soil. Do not expect the State ( = the government) to act in someone's favor or "protect" anyone. This is unfortunately the expectation of the people who were raised in Socialism: "State has to take care about me". Unfortunately, it's you who has to take care about yourself - very often acting against the State.

"I betcha this newcomer got a voodoo doll of Serbia, and be sticking her with his Darndanian needle of disintegration"

- Don't Mess with Texas

Dardanian needle of disintegration???? Instant classic!!! LMAO:)

dear Jason,

I´d say nobody is countering "Kosovo-USA" or "PRN" simply because their comments have no substance. there is nothing serious coming from them to be countered!

you know it´s like duelling with someone who got a feather in his hand...

all they are capable of is posting allegations, claims and very often ( stupid ) disinformation.

I still believe that we are dealing with some kids in down-town Pristina, who are wasting their fathers hard-earned money in an internet-cafe, writing about their very own illusions and wishful thinking.

for every intelligent reader they are disqualifying themselves...

PRN:Can you please explain just what gives US Sentate the right to create and implement the resolution in respect to Nis, Novi Pazar & Kragujevac in particular when we speak of repatriation and return of land?! (Wonderer, 13 April 2010 15:43)

My answer is FACTS


- And what are the benefits and for whom and why and in what century! (Wonderer, 13 April 2010 15:43)

My answer: The benefits are peace and justice for all the victims. Hiding crimes DOES NOT mean solving problems. Bringing justice, by saying sorry, admiting the crimes occured and paying reparation will be a just solution.

I hope I was clear and addressed your concern.

dear Jason,

I´d say nobody is countering "Kosovo-USA" or "PRN" simply because their comments have no substance. there is nothing serious coming from them to be countered!

you know it´s like duelling with someone who got a feather in his hand...

all they are capable of is posting allegations, claims and very often ( stupid ) disinformation.

I still believe that we are dealing with some kids in down-town Pristina, who are wasting their fathers hard-earned money in an internet-cafe, writing about their very own illusions and wishful thinking.

for every intelligent reader they are disqualifying themselves...
(Jovan, 14 April 2010 13:47)

Agreed, Jovan, however I still do not know why non-Albanians who support the Albanian position never call them out. This goes for quite a few people here... "Captain San Francisco," Joe, pss, etc. In fact, on rare occassions moderate Albanians are heard condemning the stupid remarks of these internet warriors rather than the self-proclaimed enlightened ones sitting high atop their respective moral perches in the United States.

One little thing more for Roberto.

An interesting link - we are in the center of Prizren and here is the tourist map of it.
Please find the famous Serbian churches on the map, like Bogorodica Ljeviska. I see it - but there is nothing on the map which would tell us where it is. However, it's on the map. Just no words telling the people: "here it is".

Mind you, this is one of the most famous structure in Prizren.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/949/screenshot20100414at412.jpg

Of course you can climb on the fortress. That's what you see from the fortress, but it's not the Ljeviska:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2787/screenshot20100414at431.jpg

Now, here it is, with barbed wire and guarded by German army, fresh photo, about a week old:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8066/screenshot20100414at436.png

This is the oldest and probably most beautiful structure in Prizren, once with wonderful frescoes inside.
Burned in 2004, no idea what is the state of the frescoes now. It was to late to ask the German guards to let us in... because they were GONE. This is how it is being "guarded".

(BTW: this is pretty unique picture, made with full frame Canon 5D using a 12 mm Sigma. The streets are to narrow for other lens. Enjoy!)

Dear Louie,
The comments of the cardinal are 2 years old.

Dear B92,
I’m very self-conscious of your comment’s code but did not understand the reason for censuring my last comment.

(USA, 13 April 2010 17:51)

This shows u have no idea of Albanian Language my friend it has Latine base and it derives from latin.

Allez,

Give me some examples of how Illyrian and Albanian are remotely similar. Provide us with some words that you can compare to Latin. That's what I thought.

Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.
(Jason, 13 April 2010 15:50)
Give yourself a pat on the back Jason, your transition is finished. You have joined the other hardcore posters who are more interested in dishing out insults than making arguments.

Mr. David J. Jones
==================

If you use a 1500+ year old book as damnation on a religion, you should start looking at an even older one...the Bible. It's filled with examples of incest and all sorts of atrocities, many committed with the blessings of the "Almighty" and some by his own hand so to speak, marrying of the minors and polygamy being the least of the problems and slavery and genocide being the order of the day.

So according to your logic..., where does that leave the majority of the folks in the world TODAY?

Maybe is better for Vatican officials to look their "internal problems", the child molestations.
(Hekuran)
-
Your attempt to argue against the Vatican has failed. You are reversing the point being made.

Who knows whether they are or not, but that discussion is irrelevent here since they are specifically commenting on Serbia's southern province of Kosovo.

dear Jason, perhaps because all those alleged non-Albanians aren´t non-Albanians?

I mean, even this "frisco"-kid, who continued calling that beautiful little city by the sea "frisco" although I mentioned it several times that every real person living there hates to hear someone call it "frisco" is very likely an albanian kid, who just wants to make others believe that someone non-albanian really supports their little stillborn freak-creation...

just recently he wrote in that quite typical albanian manner some word with 2 "l" instead of only one...

he didn´t realize it, but it was noticed and has only proven that I was right.

all these Albanian kiddies deep inside only wish to have friends and supporters who understand their greater albanian illusion.

and what´s easier than inventing alter ego´s and writing as if someone out there cares for them?

but do not misunderstand me, there are of course also moderate and intelligent Albanians out there, but they´re not posting here, they don´t even dare to say anything against the ongoing mafia-connection that is raping the whole province, except the north of course.

you know, these Albanians who are posting here are so "patriotic" that they even avoid to criticize the murder of serb and albanian civilians by the hand of their socalled "heroes", which I would only call simple criminals.

I´d say that´s cheapish and has no substance. fullstop.

they are irrelevant.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010 16:59)
Albanian religion is opportunism.Polishing the shoes of the current strong.

Let's put the "Illyria" nonsense to one side for a minute...

This article shows that, behind closed doors, things are changing... and moving in Serbia's favour.

The Roman Catholic church (RCC) has historically been one of the key instigators and motivators of violence against Serbia and Serbs (and orthodoxy in general).... I'm talking NDH, Austria, Germany etc.

Now suddenly their statements are what you would expect to hear from the Russian or Greek Orthodox churches not the RCC of old.

It would be fascinating to see what the SPC and RCC are discussing in private, but the dividends are starting to come to the surface.

That's bad news for Croat extremists and other former proxies like the "Bosnian" Muslims and Albanians who could be left to hang out to dry if the Vatican master reins in the leash.

These anti-Serbs may have won some recent "battles", but if the SPC and RCC can be "friends", then Serbia will win the "war" - absolutely no doubt about it.

The influence of the RCC on our adversaries is absolutely pivotal.

Stay tuned on this one.

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,

Please name one historian who does accept the theory that ALbanians are descendents of the Illyrians? I haven't heard of any. I don't even think Noel Malcolm would stoop so low.

If someone does not support your cause, you argue with facts that support your side, not personal insults. The sex abuse scandal with the catholic church has nothing to do with kosovo's recognition. Your insults because the vatican does not support kosovo's independence only feed fire to religious hatred and make albanians look like jihadist muslims. It is not helpful to kosovo's cause.

Peggy
=====

Regarding the expression "Religion of Albanians is Albania."

It was from a poem from an Albanian poet in the 1800-s. In the face of constant efforts by Greek nationalists and Ottomans to claim that Orthodox Albanians were Greek and Muslim Albanians Turks (for territorial purposes), he asked of Albanians of different faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim) to put nation and the Albanian cause first and above everything else.
It was a rallying cry and it has stuck since.

I personally, can't imagine a better "religion" for every nation out there.

As for these proud "Christians" here... you do know that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim... you are that way, because one of your ancestors was a convert by definition, right?

Jovan
======

The pre-Christian Romans and Greeks might have had something to say about your notions of what constitutes a religion... if they were still around to speak that is.

In any case, I could care less about religions. They're all ridiculous when you dig deep and the only decent thing that came out of Hoxha's dictatorship was that it relegated religion to an even more distant place in Albanians' lives.

So..on this topic, you actually have nothing to teach me.

PRN: thanks for the clarification - very interesting. Now assuming that people do exist who have Arabic documents showing property ownership in Kragujevac (and it's a big assumption, because the Otoman empire did not have an inheritance system comparable to the West - all property was ultimately the Sultan's) how many of them do you think there are? Certainly only a tiny number compared to the 175,000 Serbs who live there, so what are you going to do with them? Are you going to let them stay? If not, how are you going to make them leave and where to? I'm genuinely interested so do tell us.

The Albanian religion is Albanian

Regarding the expression "Religion of Albanians is Albania."

It was from a poem from an Albanian poet in the 1800-s. In the face of constant efforts by Greek nationalists and Ottomans to claim that Orthodox Albanians were Greek and Muslim Albanians Turks (for territorial purposes), he asked of Albanians of different faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim) to put nation and the Albanian cause first and above everything else.
It was a rallying cry and it has stuck since.

I personally, can't imagine a better "religion" for every nation out there.

As for these proud "Christians" here... you do know that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim... you are that way, because one of your ancestors was a convert by definition, right?
(Ment, 15 April 2010 19:07)
___________

Indeed he said

"Mos shikoni kisha dhe xhamia se feja a Shqipetarit eshte Shqipetaria".


By:Pashko Vasa.

What else?
(bali, 13 April 2010 11:33)

This come's from a religion that promotes the selling of your own children for wives and sex from as young as 5 or 6. Hypocrisy at the highest level. Only last week a pre-teen Yemeni Muslim girl died giving birth. Recently a 12 year old in Saudi divorced her 67 year old Husband.
(Mr David J. Jones, 13 April 2010 15:48)


What have we got to do with arabs and muslims, personally i would not a move a stone for a religion and the sad fact is you are trying to imply the muslim culture to an Albanian.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010
16:59)

Please explain? I\We are baffled by this concept.


"Albanian religion is opportunism.Polishing the shoes of the current strong.
(szemi, 14 April 2010 20:37)"

You are so right Szemi. The Albanians are latecomers to the Balkans. If they were the Illyrians that they claim to be- they would have been Christianized first and been most resistant to Ottoman Islamization of the region as is shown by people who are well embedded in their faith. Yet they were the ones that wholeheartedly embraced Islam in order to engage in basic plunder and brigandage. That must be the "Albanian" religion Dardan is talking about.

Hey Skiff- Have you got any recent sources of anyone claiming that the present day Albanians are descendents of the Illyrians? Have you read 'John Wilkes's book 'The Illyrians'? I looked high and low for one of the world's foremost scholar on Illyrians and he made no mention of it. Have you got anything for me?

The theory that Albanians were related to the Illyrians was proposed for the first time by the Swedish historian Johann Erich Thunmann in 1774.
[source, winkipedia]



There you have it. its form winkipedia so am sure u wont require the link.

Vatican on Kosovo and SPC ??
--
Vatican links gays to paedophile priests.
Homosexuality and paedophilia were inextricably linked,the Vatican',Secretary of State declared.
The leadership is morally bankrupt.
Vatican has other problems.
not Kosova/o.

Dan said:

The Albanians.
Skiff it's a hard thought to grasp I know, dealing with some Croats who think their Goths is a quite similair story.

So what your trying to say is simply i dont know who the Albanians are the decendants of but they cant possibly be Illyrian because its contradicts south slavs interest.


Dan also said: Because you have to convince Albanian ones first.
[link]

i checked out your link and hosesntly nothing i havnt seen before, i come accross resuli in some other forum some long time ago, he claims that Albanians are a mixture of Balkans peoples and so on.. serb toponyms in Albania which that i agree with, serbia expanded its borders all the way to greece in the middle ages All of ethnic Albanians were inside the serb empire until the turks showed up.

All Empires that have come and gone in ethnic Albania have left their mark in some way. Roman alphabet,Greek words,Serb & Bulgar toponyms and Ottoman raki are only a few i can come up with in the top of my head.

But our Albanian language comes form our ancestors.

what you mistakenly said is that Resuli is Alb, Acutally hes is no Albanian, but another serb historian

Dr. Kaplan Resuli Burovich

who tires to discredit Albanian claim on Illyrians.
which is understandeble.

i will have to go back to last place i checked to give you the link or check his profile yourself.

One evidance exsists cant be destryoed is the Albanian language which has no relatives and with no exsisting documents that shows Albanian migration in Europe makes it very hard for
serb historians to prove that Albanians are no Illyrian.

BTW: Ilirian in Albanian
means to be Free:)

Dan said

Your interpretation is off the mark Skiff,
The map I linked clearly shows an Albanian region in the Caucasus at 300AD.It is there to serve you so you could realise a much more plausable connection on where the Albanians descended from.
Adding to that the Albanian language has many similarities with languages from the caucasus area explain this please?


I am aware of Caucasus Albania and I have searched for a possible connection between the two, with no connection whatsoever,

We do not call ourselves Albanian we call ourselvs Shqiptar theoretically from the Sciptari Clan, observe the link for reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

I am most interested looking foreword to see you provide me a link that shows the similarities of Albanian language and the Caucasus languages.

Also Stalin ally with Hoxha asked if there were possible connection between Caucasus Albania which was in the USSR with Balkan Albania. The finding :The peoples form Caucasus have nothing in common with us.


Dan said

Albanians it has been documented arrived in Europe after the Arab conquest of the Albanian Caucasus around the 7AD proven through many Byzantine and Arab scripts refering to the Sicilian conquests.
In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests


Can you please provide us with a link for that information? Thanks in advance.





Yes the double headed eagle was Kastrioti's war flag emblem when he led the Albanian resistance against the Ottoman invasion.

The double headed eagle was a Byzantine emblem. Greek orthodox church uses it, Albania, Serbia, Russia, Montenegro all use the double headed eagle which were all influenced by the Byzantine Empire.


Dan said

Skiff we all have Illyrian, Dacian etc in us but we all assimilated and overwhelmed them with our names and culture, if not, we would be called Illyrian and not Albanian, Serb, Croat etc
_______

I agree with that statement and I personally support reconciliation between the Serbs and Albanians peoples.

Dan said

Skiff he can be Albanian or Yugoslav however you want him to be, the main thing he specialises in Albanian history to which respected Albanian historians follow and subscribe. Resuli born in Ulcinj a heavily populated Albanin town in Montenegro has been described by the Albanian people as the "Albanian Mandela" sentenced to 43 years imprisoment in Albania. Try to discredit the imformation instead of discrediting Kaplan but that seems to difficult for a reason. He, Kaplan is a straight shooter judging from this interveiw. I can see why he is attacked by Ultra nationalistic Albanian types.

Resuli-Burovich is clearly a Serb, He was first sentenced in Yugoslavia on accusation of speaking against socialism and the Brotherhood &unity I think it was two years if I remember correctly.

For me his theory lacks evidence just like we cant provide physical evidence of direct Albanian connection with Illyria,

Dan said
These toponyms happened in the 9th-10th century and earlier before the Serbian Empire extended it's borders.
---…--

I also require a link for that info because i don’t see how Serb toponyms can appear that early before their invasion.

trudsaam,

We don't care in Vatican or Swaziland recognizes or not Kosovo as long as we are free!

The freedom that was rejected by Serbia for so long.

Just curious: Does anybody here know who it was who first came up with this funny story about Albanians being the descendants of ancient Illyrians?
(Top, 13 April 2010 20:15)


If Albanians are not the descenants of Ilyrians, then who are they the descendats of?

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,

I personally dont care about modern bouderies because The Blakans are poised to join the EU.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010 16:59)
====================

I have not heard of that religion before except from Albanian posters here.
So how does this religion work?
Do you have a head of that religion and what is his/her name? Is your religion tax exempt or is it like "Kosova" not recognized by the major players?

Please send a link to a site which could enlighten us on that wonderful new religon.

wrong, ment.

most of today´s Albanians can prouldy call a convert their ancestor... but only few Serbs converted to islam, mostly because they wanted to avoid ottoman harassment ( the ottomans called the christians raya, and you can google now what that means... )
so much for ottoman respect towards other religions...
so,most of the Serbs kept their ancestors belief, stayed proud and christian.

but the Albanians have converted in their vast majority. the reasons for that I didn´t research, I must admit.

nevertheless, some of those who have converts in their ancestry...
have made a cut with this foreign-imposed religion, like Mr.Kusturica, who has baptized and bears the name Nemanja now...

before christianisation the Serbs did not convert, since there was no such thing like a religion, as we know it today.

but, it would be too complicated for you, I guess.
so I won´t go on teaching you lessons... you´d only start crying again how the Serbs are giving you lessons and dictating you what you have to think, like the Albanians here usually do, if caught being wrong.

Skiff said:

So what your trying to say is simply i dont know who the Albanians are the decendants of but they cant possibly be Illyrian because its contradicts south slavs interest.

Your interpretation is off the mark Skiff,
The map I linked clearly shows an Albanian region in the Caucasus at 300AD.It is there to serve you so you could realise a much more plausable connection on where the Albanians descended from.
Adding to that the Albanian language has many similarities with languages from the caucasus area explain this please?

Albanians it has been documented arrived in Europe after the Arab conquest of the Albanian Caucasus around the 7AD proven through many Byzantine and Arab scripts refering to the Sicilian conquests.
In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests.

Skiff we all have Illyrian, Dacian etc in us but we all assimilated and overwhelmed them with our names and culture, if not, we would be called Illyrian and not Albanian, Serb, Croat etc
---------------------------
Skiff said:

what you mistakenly said is that Resuli is Alb, Acutally hes is no Albanian, but another serb historian

Dr. Kaplan Resuli Burovich

who tires to discredit Albanian claim on Illyrians.
which is understandeble
----
Skiff he can be Albanian or Yugoslav however you want him to be, the main thing he specialises in Albanian history to which respected Albanian historians follow and subscribe. Resuli born in Ulcinj a heavily populated Albanin town in Montenegro has been described by the Albanian people as the "Albanian Mandela" sentanced to 43 years imprisoment in Albania. Try to discredit the imformation instead of discredeting Kaplan but that seems to difficult for a reason. He, Kaplan is a straight shooter judging from this interveiw. I can see why he is attacked by Ultra nationalistic Albanian types.

http://www.vmacedonia.com/forums2/2938.html

Skiff Croats Serbs Albanians Greeks Romanians Mcedonians Bosnians etc all have our connections to Illyrians, Thracian, Dacian, Celts etc get it.
------------------------
-serb toponyms in Albania which that i agree with, serbia expanded its borders all the way to greece in the middle ages All of ethnic Albanians were inside the serb empire until the turks showed up.


These toponyms happend in the 9th-10th century and earlier before the Serbian Empire extended it's borders.
------------------------
Skiff,
Think about the future and today's welfare, irretidism is often an anasthetic to mask today's economic suffering and crime in Albania.

Kosovo along with Nis, Novi Pazar, Kragujevac, and Skopje is the cradle of Illyria.

The 6-7 centuries of occupation has ended, now we are enjoying the fresh breth of freedom and democracy. The rest is history.

Every rational individual knows that Kosovo was NEVER Serbian, unless occupied by FORCE.

We welcomed Serb (and other slavs) refuges in 7th century, who later instead of expressing gratification that turned violent on us, by using terror and occupying our land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

I had you pegged all wrong, thought you were Albanian not Greek. Any way how did that thing with Lucinius and Constantine end up?

My answer is FACTS
(PRN, 13 April 2010 17:00)

No dude no, you aint got them.
There's another name for what you got, that be a fact.
-------------------------
This shows u have no idea of Albanian Language my friend it has Latine base and it derives from latin.
(Allez, 13 April 2010 21:11)

I think he wants to know what type of Latin.

Albanian language,
Devised in 1879, so far away and did not eliminate the last arabic words till 1908.

Albanian is classified as an Indo European language only because no one has been able to classify it into any other group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasus languages.
Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
------------------------
If Albanians are not the descenants of Ilyrians, then who are they the descendats of?
(Skiff, 14 April 2010 03:21)

The Albanians.
Skiff it's a hard thought to grasp I know, dealing with some Croats who think their Goths is a quite similair story.

http://mapsof.net/caucasus/static-maps/jpg/armenia,-colchis,-iberia,-albania,-etc

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,
(Skiff, 14 April 2010 03:21)

Because you have to convince Albanian ones first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA

All in all thats part of the past, you are here now and a few sensible posts on this thread point towards the future.

Kosovo is Serbia

to some ignorant here:
Actuellement, les catholiques sont établis autour des archevêchés de Scutari, de Durazzo, d'Uskub et autour de l'abbaye d'Orosch; ces quatre sièges dépendent directement du Saint-Siège; ils sont extra provincias ecclesiasticas, selon le terme romain, et leur fondation est des plus anciennes dans les annales de l'église catholique; Scutari remonte à l'année 387; parmi ses suffragants, Alessio date de la fin du VIe siècle, Pulati de 877 au moins, Sappa de 1062; Uskub était déjà métropole au Ve siècle et Durazzo a été fondé en l'an 58 de notre ère; ce sont des titres de noblesse dans l'histoire de la hiérarchie catholique, et c'est d'ailleurs cette longue tradition qui explique l'existence de trois archevêchés, d'un abbé ayant rang d'archevêque et de trois évêques pour une population qui, d'après les évaluations les plus optimistes, ne dépasse pas 200 000 âmes.

this is from a french writer in the beginning of the 19th.so according to the vatican source,albanian archeveché are the oldest of the catolic world in europe!

why did I know it before, what you would be "answering"? =)

it´s so easy, either you say "you want to tell us what we have to think/believe/do"

or you say, "you cannot teach us anything"

although your arguments are weak, I won´t go further in this little excursion...

you just made my day by approving what I had expected.

thank you for that, my dear k-albanian friend!

as for religion in general: it doesn´t really count.

neither will the islamic world help you in your criminal "project independence", nor will the christian world help Serbia to defend what was always rightfully serbian.

Serbia will manage to defend it with the help of international law and the reason of the majority of the world, be it muslim or christian.

I am aware of Caucasus Albania and I have searched for a possible connection between the two, with no connection whatsoever,

We do not call ourselves Albanian we call ourselvs Shqiptar theoretically from the Sciptari Clan, observe the link for reference.

I am most interested looking foreword to see you provide me a link that shows the similarities of Albanian language and the Caucasus languages.

Also Stalin ally with Hoxha asked if there were possible connection between Caucasus Albania which was in the USSR with Balkan Albania. The finding :The peoples form Caucasus have nothing in common with us.
-------------------
Skiff,
I know Albanians adopted the name Squiptari but that was at a later date, Albanians calling themselves Sqhiptars which has typical -ar ending typical of turkic Asian and Caucasus tribes (like Tatars, Avars, Khazars, Magyars, Bulgars (before slavinization). The English translation of Albania is also a translation from Byzantine Arab and Armenian sources they used names in their own language to describe people not by the current native name they use. Also the reason why we see that Tosk Albanians the originals Albanians, still calling themselves "Arberian" or "Arbëreshë" in Sicily, they have not adopted the Caucasian "Sqiptar" and their language has not been infused by Circassian and Turkish influences.
Arrival of the Circassian after the turkish conquests
furthered the Caucasian character of Albanians, the original Albanians mostly went to Sicily. In 1856 significant Caucasian infusion occured as the population was not large in Southern Balkans with the exodus of Serbs, Vlahs and Tosks to Krajina, Wallachia and Sicily. Austrian colonel, Petar Kukulj in 1871
prepared a census noting
64% of the population of Kosovo, or 318.000 being Serbs leaving the rest to be a mix of Albanian and Circassian.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kN9a-QJlY1QC&pg=PA201&dq=circassian+albania&lr=&cd=13#v=onepage&q=circassian%20albania&f=false

The link above gives some detailed numbers of large Circassian infusion which should certainly disjaunt further any theories of Albanians particully in Kosovo and Northern Albania being descendants of Illyrians and prove a more significant caucasian link.
--------------------

I agree with that statement and I personally support reconciliation between the Serbs and Albanians peoples.
(Skiff, 16 April 2010 17:54)

Good to hear not too many Albanians around like that maybee had you pegged wrong.
It is interesting to note that the Austrians proposed a Bosnian Serb link to Illyrians when they needed to dislodge the Turks from the Balkans then they came in took over and proposed Albanians were Illyrians almost in the same breath as they saw Serbs nearing an outlet to the sea.
Those theories are only meant for the big powers to play us of on each other.
------------------------
I also require a link for that info because i don’t see how Serb toponyms can appear that early before their invasion.
(Skiff, 16 April 2010 17:54)

Invasion is the wrong terminology Skiff.
Here a map made in 814 by Charles the great, suggesting Serbian influence in Albania back then. You will also find evidence of Serbs in Albania during the Serb-Bulgarian War. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_814_colbeck.jpg
Bulgar conquest 1261
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Balkans1260.gif

--------------------------

In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests

The first mentions of the Albanians in the Balkans is about the 1043 revolt against Constantinople and comes in Anna Comnenas account the Alexiad of the troubles in that region caused by the
Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118).

The Raoulii were descended from an Italo-Norman named Raoul, the Petraliphae were descended from a Pierre d'Aulps, and that group of Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from Normans who served under George Maniaces in the Sicilian expedition of 1038. The same Normans who later comlplained to the pope of too many Scythians(armenians caucasians etc) employed in the Byzantine army.

Admittingly a weak link but could be something there.

-------------------------
Can you please provide us with a link for that information? Thanks in advance

Best I could do is a limited preveiw will try to chase up some more, the event was not a major event or unique at the time so it's significance is reflected in todays's scholary works although there seems to be a connection between migrations of Caucasus, Albania and Sicily through history it is not studied in detail.

http://books.google.com.au/books?lr=&q=Tom+Winnifrith+maniaces+albanian
-------------------------
The double headed eagle was a Byzantine emblem. Greek orthodox church uses it, Albania, Serbia, Russia, Montenegro all use the double headed eagle which were all influenced by the Byzantine Empire.

So is it too much to see Albanians taking up Othodoxy. I think it might certainly remove stigmas associated with Albanian co-operation with Turks and could give common grounding with Albania's surrounding neighbours?
-------------------------

Dear dan:

You say Shipetar is caucasian? show me a document of a Shipetar clan in the east,

I showed you my link of the Sciptari caln as a tibe of Illyria.


you cant be possibly implying that shqipetar, Tatar, Maygar,,, etc have an ar ending end cound be same people? if so why is it that our language does not match.

Earlier you said that Albanian language is similar to caucasion but i asked for reference and got nothing.

I have a feeling that i wont be seeing a referance to the theorised Alb-caucasion language similarities.


please click on the link on
my previous post incase you havent already to show you my point of the Sciptari-Illyria connection.

I will not respong to all your points because the rest
are irrelevant, dating 700+AD onwards
which was the time of the south slav migration in the Ballkans and the beggining the of the slav domination in the Balkans which has no relation to our main argument which is:

The Albanian question in the Balkans.

Skiff asked,

You say Shipetar is caucasian? show me a document of a Shipetar clan in the east,

I showed you my link of the Sciptari caln as a tibe of Illyria.
-----------------------


Skiff gets,
"In their own language they call themselves Skipetar, which name bears some affinity with that of of the Skitekip, mentioned by the Armenian geographers as inhabiting a territory near the Caspian."
By Robert Jameson, Sir William Jardine, Henry Darwin
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=Skitekip&sig=XsOcDibjpKuGBXlpui13QABdWVg&ei=HLs4SoKZGImNtgep3OzSDA&ct=result&id=ShwXAAAAYAAJ&ots=4Fk__5Yhmo&output=text

Skiff also it is actually far from irrelivent to mention the Caucasian connection as I linked, 595,000 Cicassians infused in the Serb borderland (kosovo) Albania and Bulgaria is hardly irrelevent particully when there is between 60-100 thousand K Albs at the time.
Definately a large Caucasian influence.

I can also post to you many people and place names similarities in Albania and the Caucusus if you like ie Caucasian Gogari and the Albanian Gegeri.
But as I said your here and it won't change that and realisticly perhaps a waste of my time.

"The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there"

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1038.html
All clear now, add to that the Circassian infusion and we certainly get a Caucasian character do we not?

I also need to find it again but their is an English translation of a byzantine script in 1045(I think) describing Turks Serbs Bulgarians Avars and the new comers Albanians as all wanting part of the Empire.

Interesting links indeed,

I checked them read them, but as far as comparing the two links you need more than "supposed cauacasion"
in my opinion your posted theory does not measure up.


looks like the caucasian migrants might have mixed well with the inhabiting Sciptaris adopting their language quickly.

BTW, care to give your feedback on the link instead of posting theories?

kind of hard to grasp when you look at all invaders in the Balkans, its usually they that leave their mark on the indeginious population especially in the case with the Albanians.

I checked them read them, but as far as comparing the two links you need more than "supposed cauacasion"
in my opinion your posted theory does not measure up.
-----------------

Yet you post a Wiki Map as your supposed link if thats your yardstick I have definately surpassed it. Including references to Byzantine literiture and Armenian geographers goes a long way more than your map. Now when your ready to post something more credible maybee I can match it. Siptar name please plausable links too if you don't mind.

What is this rubish?

Kosovo along with Nis, Novi Pazar, Kragujevac, and Skopje is the cradle of Illyria.

The 6-7 centuries of occupation has ended, now we are enjoying the fresh breth of freedom and democracy. The rest is history.

Every rational individual knows that Kosovo was NEVER Serbian, unless occupied by FORCE.

We welcomed Serb (and other slavs) refuges in 7th century, who later instead of expressing gratification that turned violent on us, by using terror and occupying our land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.

"Important historical, cultural and religious monuments are being destroyed in Kosovo," he said of the ethnic Albanian attacks on Serb heritage.

So true! Savage behaviour. It's beyond me how the Americans and Europe can turn a blind eye to this kind of brutality towards Christianity. One reason could be the fact that most of Europe is lost to islam. Shame!

PRN: I challenged you on this before and you didn't have the courage to reply. Explain how you intend to "return" Nis, Kragujevac and Novi Pazar to "Illyria". What do you intend to do with the people who live there now?
(Dave, 13 April 2010 12:05)

Dear Dave,

This is a natural evolution. Would any Serb in 1985, 1986, 1987 etc belived that Kosovo would be independent and recognised by the whole developed world.

My answer is extremly few or NONE.

GOD knows and sees unjustices in the past and acts accordingly by punishing wrong-doers. For Serbia this is just the beginning.

A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners (the descendents of the owners who many have also papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above.

Once this process materialises Albanians will return to those land and gradually things may turn unpredictably in the victims favour.

...and so the story continues....

I hope the above satifies your concern.

(PRN, 13 April 2010, 10:51)

Spoken like a true Albanian troll. Where is your evidence to prove that Kosovo is Albanian; no buildings older than 20 years? In fact not even cave painting to prove these ludicrous statements.
I see little of Serbia disintegrating, but Albanians are slowly dying in Kosovo – no jobs, no hope but to buy Serbian passports and flee that Albanian paradise. The best part is that your allies, the US/EU, are not even lifting a finger to help you, ha, ha, ha.
Albanians are best described in history as Turkish camp followers. They arrived with the Turks but now claim ancient connections with the region that no other reputable historian would even dream of corroborating.

Hey, where are those KP/EU/EULEX/NATO/KFOR/US/Albanian army border guards along the so called Serbian/Kosovo border that you constantly rant on about?

vatican is pushing hard for a clash of religions in albanian lands,because they hope to gain from this and convert albanians from muslims in christians!
This minister of the Vatican should learn how the father of mother teresa was killed and why,should learn who killed our Fathers in kosova!
Let him have a visit to Genezzano church on the feast day of Our Lady of Good Counsel, April 26at Roma, She will help him.
after father kcira,comes this statement about the solidarity of the roman catholic with serbian church!May our Lady of good counsel have mercy for them.and we hope in her amazing grace,not in those we bless criminals.

PRN:Can you please explain just what gives US Sentate the right to create and implement the resolution in respect to Nis, Novi Pazar & Kragujevac in particular when we speak of repatriation and return of land?! (Wonderer, 13 April 2010 15:43)

My answer is FACTS


- And what are the benefits and for whom and why and in what century! (Wonderer, 13 April 2010 15:43)

My answer: The benefits are peace and justice for all the victims. Hiding crimes DOES NOT mean solving problems. Bringing justice, by saying sorry, admiting the crimes occured and paying reparation will be a just solution.

I hope I was clear and addressed your concern.

>>The Vatican has not recognized Kosovo out of consideration for the Serbian Orthodox Church, Cardinal Walter Casper was quoted as saying.>>

this is a stupid and reactionary declaration, coming from a church that is being led in increasingly conservative and irresponsible ways. i do not believe that it represents the thoughts of either most catholics or catholic leadership, and those who oppose such ugly and prejudiced statements, from inside the church, need to speak up.

the whole issue of destruction of churches is such a politicized red herring in the balkans, as serbia and serbian forces throughout the 90s (and beyond) are notorious for the destruction of catholic churches and of course mosques. all throughout their beloved "RS." you know, destroy holy places and put up a parking lot. it has been their signature throughout their (acc to Dayton) areas -- i have personally seen many such examples.

and yet their nationalist apologists insist that it is the "albanians" who are solely responsible for such crimes. it stinks wherever it occurs; but it does appear that almost the sole purpose of their churches is to claim the territory and then indulge in a martyr complex about them. churches as weapons of offense. how religious...

i do agree w louie (asd usual): serbs and albanians, or let's just say that all people (s) need to learn to live together, to co-exist! how, is the question. nobel peace prize indeed.

thanks -- roberto
frisco

I respect the comments of Cardinal,not necessary agree with them!!!
His remarks are old news, situation in Kosova is much better now regarding the safety of religious places,after all the churches belong to our history as well!

It is just the old talk,I expected fom him more,maybe to find the formula so Albanians and Serbs can live together knowing that his views come from "Vatican" who recently had to deal with few of their own scandals!!!

On the positive note,The Kingdom of Swaziland recognised Kosova,according to some independent news agencies,it counts, even as small country it is!

Next step for us is to find the solution so all Kosovans can live together and that person would deserve the Noble Price!

Peace and Love!

Gëzuar and Živeli!

(USA, 13 April 2010 17:51)

This shows u have no idea of Albanian Language my friend it has Latine base and it derives from latin.

PRN: I challenged you on this before and you didn't have the courage to reply. Explain how you intend to "return" Nis, Kragujevac and Novi Pazar to "Illyria". What do you intend to do with the people who live there now?

Mikael C
========

Get off the high horse dude.

Serbs showed their cultural "sensitivity" towards others' monuments/mosques both in Kosovo and in Bosnia.

This is not to justify acts of destruction done by Albanians, but who are you to judge again?

As for this clown of a cardinal...who's so concerned about buildings...can he explain where was the concern when the SPC was fanning the flames (and still is) of Serb nationalism instead of staying busy doing "God's work?" Well, actually, judging by the present pope recent attitudes... no answer's needed.

David Jones
===========

Why I could give a damn about religions of any kind, I don't think you grasp the difference between culture and religion... Most Arabs may be Muslim but most Muslims are not Arabs...Get it?

PRN, you made my day! =)

perhaps you should tell us what you are consuming, since the effects are really great!

entertainment at it´s best!

Good to see you're finding sometime to tell something else apart from child molastation and endless sex scandals that are unearthing as we speak.

What else?
(bali, 13 April 2010 11:33)

This come's from a religion that promotes the selling of your own children for wives and sex from as young as 5 or 6. Hypocrisy at the highest level. Only last week a pre-teen Yemeni Muslim girl died giving birth. Recently a 12 year old in Saudi divorced her 67 year old Husband.

Mr. David J. Jones
==================

If you use a 1500+ year old book as damnation on a religion, you should start looking at an even older one...the Bible. It's filled with examples of incest and all sorts of atrocities, many committed with the blessings of the "Almighty" and some by his own hand so to speak, marrying of the minors and polygamy being the least of the problems and slavery and genocide being the order of the day.

So according to your logic..., where does that leave the majority of the folks in the world TODAY?

PRN:- you should stop listening to your Great-Grandfather. He doesn't sound too informed.

"A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners"

-PRN

Too funny. You know there are resolutions every year or so for Vermont to secede from the USA? Look how far that gets them...

Look silly, if the US were to do such a thing - they would be opening up their own Pandora's box because as recently as the early 20th century my government has committed real genocide on the Native American population and stolen their land. You think we are going to give that back? Keep dreaming.

Anyway, ancient history be damned - it is irrelevant today. We can see real proof of Serbian history all over Kosovo that is more recent. Your Illyrian connection is dubious at best and since your (claimed) ancestors never learned to read or write there is no PROOF of anything. Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.

I'm no expert on religion but it's downright absurd how you Serbs try to link ALL ethnic Albanians no matter the nationality (Kosovar, Albanian, Macedonian, etc) to Taliban, Al Quida, or any other fundamentalist extremists.

Do you really believe that anyone takes you seriously when you make such claims?

Think about it, WEST this, NATO that, Islamics this....there is got to be a point when you wake up and realize that you have to take accountability for your actions -- specifically Slobodan Milosevic.

Good to see you're finding sometime to tell something else apart from child molastation and endless sex scandals that are unearthing as we speak.

What else?

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

Vatican respects Serbian church and is against savagery of albanians.And your answer to that is wish to steal more land and destroy more christian shrines..
Dude-taliban mentality will never take Serbian land..

PRN..."papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above."
I'm not sure I understand the connection between Ancient Illyria (and thus your whole historical argument) and land ownership papers in Arabic? Didn't Illyria predate the Ottoman? Wouldn't Illyrians have ownership documents in Illyrian or perhaps Greek or Latin?
Documents in Arabic simply seem to further cement the notion that Albanians were migrants that came in with the Ottoman Empire.
Interestingly enough is that Serbian Kings of Antiquity had full legal ownership of Kosovo, on paper, and via the structures and monuments peppered across the country side. It is also an historical fact that Serbian land was returned once the Ottoman Empire was removed from the Balkan Peninsula. This land was returned to Serbia in accordance with the treaties signed by Kosovo's current signatories' predecessor governments.
Again, not sure that ownership papers written in Arabic demonstrate anything by family ownership during a period in history when this part of the world was further occupied by an invading nation. To use this approach to demonstrate that Serbians are occupying Illyria one would then require ownership documents written up in Illyrian, Greek, and Latin dating back to the time when Illyria was a province.
BTW, this article was about the Roman Catholic Church and the destruction of Serbian Orthodox religious monuments and structures within Kosovo. It would also seem that you have no ability to empathies with anyone else. You wish the world to cry for you when crimes are committed against you, yet flaunt similar crimes against others and also seem to think that it's reasonable behavior. This is the greatest shame one can imagine.

This kind of cardinals comments of true are worth nothing and have no influence whatsoever amongs the Albanians.
For Albanians he is just an ordinary men like every other men in this planet. The menkind can not be fooled as it used to be many centuries ago by those who pretend to talk "in the name of God/Allah".

PRN:Can you please explain just what gives US Sentate the right to create and implement the resolution in respect to Nis, Novi Pazar & Kragujevac in particular when we speak of repatriation and return of land?! - And what are the benefits and for whom and why and in what century! - Thanks

A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners (the descendents of the owners who many have also papers that in Arabic writing that their grandparents owned a number of properties in the areas mentioned above.

Once this process materialises Albanians will return to those land and gradually things may turn unpredictably in the victims favour.

...and so the story continues....

I hope the above satifies your concern.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 14:42)

Shall we give North Africa back to the Visigoths or Mars back to the Martians?

Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.
(Jason, 13 April 2010 15:50)
Give yourself a pat on the back Jason, your transition is finished. You have joined the other hardcore posters who are more interested in dishing out insults than making arguments.

Maybe is better for Vatican officials to look their "internal problems", the child molestations.

PRNs comments are getting more and more funny every day! Go on, it's a bizarre theatre, very entertaining :-)

Dear PRN,

Kosovo is not independent, is not a UN member state, it only declared itself as independend, and is recognized by some dozens of countries so far and not "by the whole civilized world"

This is a natural evolution.
PRN

Well mr "Darwin"! You forgot to mention that this resolution in the US senate, that will enable you to steal more territory that doesn't belon to you, also mentioned that the native americans, the indians, will get back the entire continent of America since they are "the original owners". Sorry to inform you but you don't even own the clothes on your back. Its a donation from the rest of Europe.

Mr Rae

I couldn't agree more with your posting.There isn't a shred of evidence as to the relation between Albanians and Illyrians.

The world doesn't possess a single text written in Illyrian.We do possess two short texts which are presumed to be Thracian still not encrypted.The linguists which tried to interpret those Thracian scripts concluded that both of them read from bottom to the top produced perfect Greek phrases.

Some linguistic arguments are more closely linked to geography.We do know the names of places from the Roman times.Since the modern names are derivatives of Slavic forms of names one would suggest that Albanians entered this area only after the Slavic migrations in the seventh century.

What are resounding rejection of kosovo! His mention of the destruction of Serbian churches and culture in kosovo is a rarity in europe and never said in america. Good Job!

“A resolution in the USA senate for the crimes committed in Nis, Novi Pazar and Kragujevac in the 19th century will open the way for reparation and return of the land to the original owners… (PRN, 13 April 2010 14:42)”

I can confirm that yes indeedy, the Albanians are lining up as we speak to get their reparations from the government. Right behind the Native American Indians and African Americans. Should be any second now.

Doesn't illyrian have a latin background? How does the Albanian language resemble Latin in any way??

Ment, I am well aware of the the difference between religion and culture. I usually respond to a specific statement on here which is the case today. If you a wee more intelligent you would have noticed such and not embarrased yourself by stating a complete irrelevance.
Now you mention it though it why you said you dont give a damn about religion then commented on a religiously orientated thread bewilders me. Maybe I struck I a nerve. It is actually your holy book that refences to the underage and not contained to Arabs to which you 'PRESUMED'.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

I betcha this newcomer got a voodoo doll of Serbia, and be sticking her with his Darndanian needle of disintegration.

What you plannin' there PRN? More destruction of Serbia's and my Christian heritage? Faster disintegration of Serbia's bones in graves of their loved ones from you digging them out and messin with them?? Beat on some more old folks and burn them in their homes? Plan another major Serbian harvesting festival? Blow up another bus of innocent folk? Attack the North and commit "suicide"?

Let me give you a Texas-size piece of brotherly word here, Mr. Full of hate and revenge:

I can see that these here Serbs don't give a dang care in this world what that man that got his watch stolen done told you. If he told you that he a Texan, he lied! If he told you that Kosovo is Kosova, he done lied to you again! The brother is a politician PRN, and I forgive him for everything I think he ever did to me, and I still love him, because he is my brother and because Texas LOVES everybody same!
And you should too, brother PRN. You should.
Because brother PRN things in life don't always happen as people plan. That should be easy enough for any human folk from any part of the creation to understand.

As long as "you" be teaching and encouraging your young'ins to HATE, HURT, and TERRORIZE the helpless, and to differentiate the right of life between Albanian cats and dogs and Serb cats and dogs, and as long as you have a Government with it's core of Terrorist Narco Traffickers-- YOUR--disintegration is imminent, not Serbs.

It is impossible to know the Truth or have wisdom when one is full of hate and bent on revenge,Mr. PRN.

Your world views towards your brothers and sisters have set you back so far, that you see terror against civility as your only way out of the creation that y'all chose. You are full of jealousy and hate, and you will continue to be jealous and hateful--until you choose to turn towards Love and learn to forgive.

Just curious: Does anybody here know who it was who first came up with this funny story about Albanians being the descendants of ancient Illyrians?

Just curious: Does anybody here know who it was who first came up with this funny story about Albanians being the descendants of ancient Illyrians?
(Top, 13 April 2010 20:15)


If Albanians are not the descenants of Ilyrians, then who are they the descendats of?

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,

I personally dont care about modern bouderies because The Blakans are poised to join the EU.

Some of the writings here are totally crazy.

Dear Louie,
The comments of the cardinal are 2 years old.

Dear B92,
I’m very self-conscious of your comment’s code but did not understand the reason for censuring my last comment.

land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

Further disintegration os Serbia is imminent.
(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

It looks that something else has long ago disintegrated...

What else?
(bali, 13 April 2010 11:33)

This come's from a religion that promotes the selling of your own children for wives and sex from as young as 5 or 6. Hypocrisy at the highest level. Only last week a pre-teen Yemeni Muslim girl died giving birth. Recently a 12 year old in Saudi divorced her 67 year old Husband.
(Mr David J. Jones, 13 April 2010 15:48)


What have we got to do with arabs and muslims, personally i would not a move a stone for a religion and the sad fact is you are trying to imply the muslim culture to an Albanian.

wrong, ment.

most of today´s Albanians can prouldy call a convert their ancestor... but only few Serbs converted to islam, mostly because they wanted to avoid ottoman harassment ( the ottomans called the christians raya, and you can google now what that means... )
so much for ottoman respect towards other religions...
so,most of the Serbs kept their ancestors belief, stayed proud and christian.

but the Albanians have converted in their vast majority. the reasons for that I didn´t research, I must admit.

nevertheless, some of those who have converts in their ancestry...
have made a cut with this foreign-imposed religion, like Mr.Kusturica, who has baptized and bears the name Nemanja now...

before christianisation the Serbs did not convert, since there was no such thing like a religion, as we know it today.

but, it would be too complicated for you, I guess.
so I won´t go on teaching you lessons... you´d only start crying again how the Serbs are giving you lessons and dictating you what you have to think, like the Albanians here usually do, if caught being wrong.

Most of the comments here are ridiculous, referring anything to Illyria or even trying to rebudle against it is a waste of time.

This world we live in belongs to everyone, isn't the living standard of our people more important? (and I'm speaking of both the native-Serbs and Serbo-albanians). It seems to me that we choose to be blinded by what's really going on by referring to "history" or "his-story". When the real problem here is that people have no money, no food, un-safe in the areas they are living in and to top it all off, nothing in the near future seems be positive coming.

So please; before anyone opens they're mouth just think of the situation for what it is, be aware of what is happening. Who cares about the so-called "illyria" or "greater albania" or even "greater serbia" for that matter. Our people are suffering, and all we seem to be doing is baffling on about something that has never existed, doesn't exist and never will exist...so wake up

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,

Please name one historian who does accept the theory that ALbanians are descendents of the Illyrians? I haven't heard of any. I don't even think Noel Malcolm would stoop so low.

The Albanian religion is Albanian

dear Jason, perhaps because all those alleged non-Albanians aren´t non-Albanians?

I mean, even this "frisco"-kid, who continued calling that beautiful little city by the sea "frisco" although I mentioned it several times that every real person living there hates to hear someone call it "frisco" is very likely an albanian kid, who just wants to make others believe that someone non-albanian really supports their little stillborn freak-creation...

just recently he wrote in that quite typical albanian manner some word with 2 "l" instead of only one...

he didn´t realize it, but it was noticed and has only proven that I was right.

all these Albanian kiddies deep inside only wish to have friends and supporters who understand their greater albanian illusion.

and what´s easier than inventing alter ego´s and writing as if someone out there cares for them?

but do not misunderstand me, there are of course also moderate and intelligent Albanians out there, but they´re not posting here, they don´t even dare to say anything against the ongoing mafia-connection that is raping the whole province, except the north of course.

you know, these Albanians who are posting here are so "patriotic" that they even avoid to criticize the murder of serb and albanian civilians by the hand of their socalled "heroes", which I would only call simple criminals.

I´d say that´s cheapish and has no substance. fullstop.

they are irrelevant.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010 16:59)
====================

I have not heard of that religion before except from Albanian posters here.
So how does this religion work?
Do you have a head of that religion and what is his/her name? Is your religion tax exempt or is it like "Kosova" not recognized by the major players?

Please send a link to a site which could enlighten us on that wonderful new religon.

Vatican on Kosovo and SPC ??
--
Vatican links gays to paedophile priests.
Homosexuality and paedophilia were inextricably linked,the Vatican',Secretary of State declared.
The leadership is morally bankrupt.
Vatican has other problems.
not Kosova/o.

Illyrian land? Lets bring pangea back as well!

"The cardinal also spoke in favor of encouraging reconciliation between Serbs and Croats."

When will the "Holy" Vatican admit their role in WWII?

PRN: thanks for the clarification - very interesting. Now assuming that people do exist who have Arabic documents showing property ownership in Kragujevac (and it's a big assumption, because the Otoman empire did not have an inheritance system comparable to the West - all property was ultimately the Sultan's) how many of them do you think there are? Certainly only a tiny number compared to the 175,000 Serbs who live there, so what are you going to do with them? Are you going to let them stay? If not, how are you going to make them leave and where to? I'm genuinely interested so do tell us.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010 16:59)
Albanian religion is opportunism.Polishing the shoes of the current strong.

Sounds to me like your arguments are all hot air. I advise you to partner up with your brother K-USA and get into the masterbaking business and leave the thinking to others.
(Jason, 13 April 2010 15:50)
Give yourself a pat on the back Jason, your transition is finished. You have joined the other hardcore posters who are more interested in dishing out insults than making arguments.
(pss, 13 April 2010 19:06)

Wrong. Looks like you have learned to cut and paste, I see. Bravo. If you had included my comment in its entirety then you would have seen my logical and sensible rebuttal to one of the most illogical and hateful posters on here: PRN.

PRN and his troll buddy K-USA usually offer nothing more than rubbish on here yet you never seem to counter their statements - why is that?

Ment (al)

Mr. David J. Jones
===…==

If you use a 1500+ year old book as damnation on a religion, you should start looking at an even older one...the Bible. It's filled with examples of incest and all sorts of atrocities, many committed with the blessings of the "Almighty" and some by his own hand so to speak, marrying of the minors and polygamy being the least of the problems and slavery and genocide being the order of the day.

So according to your logic..., where does that leave the majority of the folks in the world TODAY?
(Ment, 13 April 2010 21:41)

BUT WE HAVE EVOLVED. A significant proportion of the Muslim fraternity have not.

Kosovo i Metohija je Srbija.

Kosovo along with Nis, Novi Pazar, Kragujevac, and Skopje is the cradle of Illyria.

The 6-7 centuries of occupation has ended, now we are enjoying the fresh breth of freedom and democracy. The rest is history.

Every rational individual knows that Kosovo was NEVER Serbian, unless occupied by FORCE.

We welcomed Serb (and other slavs) refuges in 7th century, who later instead of expressing gratification that turned violent on us, by using terror and occupying our land. Now they are realising that payback time is on the pipeline.

(PRN, 13 April 2010 10:51)

I had you pegged all wrong, thought you were Albanian not Greek. Any way how did that thing with Lucinius and Constantine end up?

My answer is FACTS
(PRN, 13 April 2010 17:00)

No dude no, you aint got them.
There's another name for what you got, that be a fact.
-------------------------
This shows u have no idea of Albanian Language my friend it has Latine base and it derives from latin.
(Allez, 13 April 2010 21:11)

I think he wants to know what type of Latin.

Albanian language,
Devised in 1879, so far away and did not eliminate the last arabic words till 1908.

Albanian is classified as an Indo European language only because no one has been able to classify it into any other group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasus languages.
Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
------------------------
If Albanians are not the descenants of Ilyrians, then who are they the descendats of?
(Skiff, 14 April 2010 03:21)

The Albanians.
Skiff it's a hard thought to grasp I know, dealing with some Croats who think their Goths is a quite similair story.

http://mapsof.net/caucasus/static-maps/jpg/armenia,-colchis,-iberia,-albania,-etc

Why the slav historians specifically refuse to consider Albanian theory descendants of Illryia and the theory that the name Albania derives form Albanoi tribe located in modern central Albania because
If they did consider it, it would mean that they are occupying our lands,
(Skiff, 14 April 2010 03:21)

Because you have to convince Albanian ones first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA

All in all thats part of the past, you are here now and a few sensible posts on this thread point towards the future.

Kosovo is Serbia

"I betcha this newcomer got a voodoo doll of Serbia, and be sticking her with his Darndanian needle of disintegration"

- Don't Mess with Texas

Dardanian needle of disintegration???? Instant classic!!! LMAO:)

Next step for us is to find the solution so all Kosovans can live together and that person would deserve the Noble Price!
(louie, 13 April 2010 17:19)

Don't look for one person. It does not exist because politicians are who they are.
The positive news: there are about two million of such persons in Kosovo alone and an other six or so in the rest of Serbia... they just do not know, they are.

I wish everyone share most of your views.

While I won't speak about two different countries - we can already speak about two different governments on Serbian soil. Do not expect the State ( = the government) to act in someone's favor or "protect" anyone. This is unfortunately the expectation of the people who were raised in Socialism: "State has to take care about me". Unfortunately, it's you who has to take care about yourself - very often acting against the State.

Maybe is better for Vatican officials to look their "internal problems", the child molestations.
(Hekuran)
-
Your attempt to argue against the Vatican has failed. You are reversing the point being made.

Who knows whether they are or not, but that discussion is irrelevent here since they are specifically commenting on Serbia's southern province of Kosovo.

Let's put the "Illyria" nonsense to one side for a minute...

This article shows that, behind closed doors, things are changing... and moving in Serbia's favour.

The Roman Catholic church (RCC) has historically been one of the key instigators and motivators of violence against Serbia and Serbs (and orthodoxy in general).... I'm talking NDH, Austria, Germany etc.

Now suddenly their statements are what you would expect to hear from the Russian or Greek Orthodox churches not the RCC of old.

It would be fascinating to see what the SPC and RCC are discussing in private, but the dividends are starting to come to the surface.

That's bad news for Croat extremists and other former proxies like the "Bosnian" Muslims and Albanians who could be left to hang out to dry if the Vatican master reins in the leash.

These anti-Serbs may have won some recent "battles", but if the SPC and RCC can be "friends", then Serbia will win the "war" - absolutely no doubt about it.

The influence of the RCC on our adversaries is absolutely pivotal.

Stay tuned on this one.

dear Jason,

I´d say nobody is countering "Kosovo-USA" or "PRN" simply because their comments have no substance. there is nothing serious coming from them to be countered!

you know it´s like duelling with someone who got a feather in his hand...

all they are capable of is posting allegations, claims and very often ( stupid ) disinformation.

I still believe that we are dealing with some kids in down-town Pristina, who are wasting their fathers hard-earned money in an internet-cafe, writing about their very own illusions and wishful thinking.

for every intelligent reader they are disqualifying themselves...

dear Jason,

I´d say nobody is countering "Kosovo-USA" or "PRN" simply because their comments have no substance. there is nothing serious coming from them to be countered!

you know it´s like duelling with someone who got a feather in his hand...

all they are capable of is posting allegations, claims and very often ( stupid ) disinformation.

I still believe that we are dealing with some kids in down-town Pristina, who are wasting their fathers hard-earned money in an internet-cafe, writing about their very own illusions and wishful thinking.

for every intelligent reader they are disqualifying themselves...
(Jovan, 14 April 2010 13:47)

Agreed, Jovan, however I still do not know why non-Albanians who support the Albanian position never call them out. This goes for quite a few people here... "Captain San Francisco," Joe, pss, etc. In fact, on rare occassions moderate Albanians are heard condemning the stupid remarks of these internet warriors rather than the self-proclaimed enlightened ones sitting high atop their respective moral perches in the United States.

The theory that Albanians were related to the Illyrians was proposed for the first time by the Swedish historian Johann Erich Thunmann in 1774.
[source, winkipedia]



There you have it. its form winkipedia so am sure u wont require the link.

If someone does not support your cause, you argue with facts that support your side, not personal insults. The sex abuse scandal with the catholic church has nothing to do with kosovo's recognition. Your insults because the vatican does not support kosovo's independence only feed fire to religious hatred and make albanians look like jihadist muslims. It is not helpful to kosovo's cause.

The Albanian religion is Albanian
(Dardan, 14 April 2010
16:59)

Please explain? I\We are baffled by this concept.


"Albanian religion is opportunism.Polishing the shoes of the current strong.
(szemi, 14 April 2010 20:37)"

You are so right Szemi. The Albanians are latecomers to the Balkans. If they were the Illyrians that they claim to be- they would have been Christianized first and been most resistant to Ottoman Islamization of the region as is shown by people who are well embedded in their faith. Yet they were the ones that wholeheartedly embraced Islam in order to engage in basic plunder and brigandage. That must be the "Albanian" religion Dardan is talking about.

Hey Skiff- Have you got any recent sources of anyone claiming that the present day Albanians are descendents of the Illyrians? Have you read 'John Wilkes's book 'The Illyrians'? I looked high and low for one of the world's foremost scholar on Illyrians and he made no mention of it. Have you got anything for me?

One little thing more for Roberto.

An interesting link - we are in the center of Prizren and here is the tourist map of it.
Please find the famous Serbian churches on the map, like Bogorodica Ljeviska. I see it - but there is nothing on the map which would tell us where it is. However, it's on the map. Just no words telling the people: "here it is".

Mind you, this is one of the most famous structure in Prizren.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/949/screenshot20100414at412.jpg

Of course you can climb on the fortress. That's what you see from the fortress, but it's not the Ljeviska:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2787/screenshot20100414at431.jpg

Now, here it is, with barbed wire and guarded by German army, fresh photo, about a week old:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8066/screenshot20100414at436.png

This is the oldest and probably most beautiful structure in Prizren, once with wonderful frescoes inside.
Burned in 2004, no idea what is the state of the frescoes now. It was to late to ask the German guards to let us in... because they were GONE. This is how it is being "guarded".

(BTW: this is pretty unique picture, made with full frame Canon 5D using a 12 mm Sigma. The streets are to narrow for other lens. Enjoy!)

to some ignorant here:
Actuellement, les catholiques sont établis autour des archevêchés de Scutari, de Durazzo, d'Uskub et autour de l'abbaye d'Orosch; ces quatre sièges dépendent directement du Saint-Siège; ils sont extra provincias ecclesiasticas, selon le terme romain, et leur fondation est des plus anciennes dans les annales de l'église catholique; Scutari remonte à l'année 387; parmi ses suffragants, Alessio date de la fin du VIe siècle, Pulati de 877 au moins, Sappa de 1062; Uskub était déjà métropole au Ve siècle et Durazzo a été fondé en l'an 58 de notre ère; ce sont des titres de noblesse dans l'histoire de la hiérarchie catholique, et c'est d'ailleurs cette longue tradition qui explique l'existence de trois archevêchés, d'un abbé ayant rang d'archevêque et de trois évêques pour une population qui, d'après les évaluations les plus optimistes, ne dépasse pas 200 000 âmes.

this is from a french writer in the beginning of the 19th.so according to the vatican source,albanian archeveché are the oldest of the catolic world in europe!

Dan said:

The Albanians.
Skiff it's a hard thought to grasp I know, dealing with some Croats who think their Goths is a quite similair story.

So what your trying to say is simply i dont know who the Albanians are the decendants of but they cant possibly be Illyrian because its contradicts south slavs interest.


Dan also said: Because you have to convince Albanian ones first.
[link]

i checked out your link and hosesntly nothing i havnt seen before, i come accross resuli in some other forum some long time ago, he claims that Albanians are a mixture of Balkans peoples and so on.. serb toponyms in Albania which that i agree with, serbia expanded its borders all the way to greece in the middle ages All of ethnic Albanians were inside the serb empire until the turks showed up.

All Empires that have come and gone in ethnic Albania have left their mark in some way. Roman alphabet,Greek words,Serb & Bulgar toponyms and Ottoman raki are only a few i can come up with in the top of my head.

But our Albanian language comes form our ancestors.

what you mistakenly said is that Resuli is Alb, Acutally hes is no Albanian, but another serb historian

Dr. Kaplan Resuli Burovich

who tires to discredit Albanian claim on Illyrians.
which is understandeble.

i will have to go back to last place i checked to give you the link or check his profile yourself.

One evidance exsists cant be destryoed is the Albanian language which has no relatives and with no exsisting documents that shows Albanian migration in Europe makes it very hard for
serb historians to prove that Albanians are no Illyrian.

BTW: Ilirian in Albanian
means to be Free:)

Skiff said:

So what your trying to say is simply i dont know who the Albanians are the decendants of but they cant possibly be Illyrian because its contradicts south slavs interest.

Your interpretation is off the mark Skiff,
The map I linked clearly shows an Albanian region in the Caucasus at 300AD.It is there to serve you so you could realise a much more plausable connection on where the Albanians descended from.
Adding to that the Albanian language has many similarities with languages from the caucasus area explain this please?

Albanians it has been documented arrived in Europe after the Arab conquest of the Albanian Caucasus around the 7AD proven through many Byzantine and Arab scripts refering to the Sicilian conquests.
In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests.

Skiff we all have Illyrian, Dacian etc in us but we all assimilated and overwhelmed them with our names and culture, if not, we would be called Illyrian and not Albanian, Serb, Croat etc
---------------------------
Skiff said:

what you mistakenly said is that Resuli is Alb, Acutally hes is no Albanian, but another serb historian

Dr. Kaplan Resuli Burovich

who tires to discredit Albanian claim on Illyrians.
which is understandeble
----
Skiff he can be Albanian or Yugoslav however you want him to be, the main thing he specialises in Albanian history to which respected Albanian historians follow and subscribe. Resuli born in Ulcinj a heavily populated Albanin town in Montenegro has been described by the Albanian people as the "Albanian Mandela" sentanced to 43 years imprisoment in Albania. Try to discredit the imformation instead of discredeting Kaplan but that seems to difficult for a reason. He, Kaplan is a straight shooter judging from this interveiw. I can see why he is attacked by Ultra nationalistic Albanian types.

http://www.vmacedonia.com/forums2/2938.html

Skiff Croats Serbs Albanians Greeks Romanians Mcedonians Bosnians etc all have our connections to Illyrians, Thracian, Dacian, Celts etc get it.
------------------------
-serb toponyms in Albania which that i agree with, serbia expanded its borders all the way to greece in the middle ages All of ethnic Albanians were inside the serb empire until the turks showed up.


These toponyms happend in the 9th-10th century and earlier before the Serbian Empire extended it's borders.
------------------------
Skiff,
Think about the future and today's welfare, irretidism is often an anasthetic to mask today's economic suffering and crime in Albania.

why did I know it before, what you would be "answering"? =)

it´s so easy, either you say "you want to tell us what we have to think/believe/do"

or you say, "you cannot teach us anything"

although your arguments are weak, I won´t go further in this little excursion...

you just made my day by approving what I had expected.

thank you for that, my dear k-albanian friend!

as for religion in general: it doesn´t really count.

neither will the islamic world help you in your criminal "project independence", nor will the christian world help Serbia to defend what was always rightfully serbian.

Serbia will manage to defend it with the help of international law and the reason of the majority of the world, be it muslim or christian.

Allez,

Give me some examples of how Illyrian and Albanian are remotely similar. Provide us with some words that you can compare to Latin. That's what I thought.

Dan said

Your interpretation is off the mark Skiff,
The map I linked clearly shows an Albanian region in the Caucasus at 300AD.It is there to serve you so you could realise a much more plausable connection on where the Albanians descended from.
Adding to that the Albanian language has many similarities with languages from the caucasus area explain this please?


I am aware of Caucasus Albania and I have searched for a possible connection between the two, with no connection whatsoever,

We do not call ourselves Albanian we call ourselvs Shqiptar theoretically from the Sciptari Clan, observe the link for reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

I am most interested looking foreword to see you provide me a link that shows the similarities of Albanian language and the Caucasus languages.

Also Stalin ally with Hoxha asked if there were possible connection between Caucasus Albania which was in the USSR with Balkan Albania. The finding :The peoples form Caucasus have nothing in common with us.


Dan said

Albanians it has been documented arrived in Europe after the Arab conquest of the Albanian Caucasus around the 7AD proven through many Byzantine and Arab scripts refering to the Sicilian conquests.
In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests


Can you please provide us with a link for that information? Thanks in advance.





Yes the double headed eagle was Kastrioti's war flag emblem when he led the Albanian resistance against the Ottoman invasion.

The double headed eagle was a Byzantine emblem. Greek orthodox church uses it, Albania, Serbia, Russia, Montenegro all use the double headed eagle which were all influenced by the Byzantine Empire.


Dan said

Skiff we all have Illyrian, Dacian etc in us but we all assimilated and overwhelmed them with our names and culture, if not, we would be called Illyrian and not Albanian, Serb, Croat etc
_______

I agree with that statement and I personally support reconciliation between the Serbs and Albanians peoples.

Dan said

Skiff he can be Albanian or Yugoslav however you want him to be, the main thing he specialises in Albanian history to which respected Albanian historians follow and subscribe. Resuli born in Ulcinj a heavily populated Albanin town in Montenegro has been described by the Albanian people as the "Albanian Mandela" sentenced to 43 years imprisoment in Albania. Try to discredit the imformation instead of discrediting Kaplan but that seems to difficult for a reason. He, Kaplan is a straight shooter judging from this interveiw. I can see why he is attacked by Ultra nationalistic Albanian types.

Resuli-Burovich is clearly a Serb, He was first sentenced in Yugoslavia on accusation of speaking against socialism and the Brotherhood &unity I think it was two years if I remember correctly.

For me his theory lacks evidence just like we cant provide physical evidence of direct Albanian connection with Illyria,

Dan said
These toponyms happened in the 9th-10th century and earlier before the Serbian Empire extended it's borders.
---…--

I also require a link for that info because i don’t see how Serb toponyms can appear that early before their invasion.

the whole issue of destruction of churches is such a politicized red herring in the balkans, as serbia and serbian forces throughout the 90s (and beyond) are notorious for the destruction of catholic churches and of course mosques.

thanks -- roberto
frisco
(roberto, 13 April 2010 21:41)

Yes - what's that hoopla about all these Pravolsav churches? Answer: from non-religious point of view the frescoes. The number of remaining early medieval frescoes in the "East" is very small compared to what it used to be. "Thanks" to Mongols, Ottomans and similar.

What's the deal about the frescoes? The deal is, they mirror the medieval life in East/Southeast Europe, still much to research about. Much of the history was in the fact ALTERED later, often by Catholic church.

For instance - you probably never heard about the little romanesque church in Ócsa, near Budapest. It's still under archeologic research. It provides amazing material about the time of Conquest of Carpathian Basin and if one listens to the scientists working on the project - it turns known dogmas upside down. For instance about the history of YOUR people, Roberto.

Every act you speak about as "politicized red herring" (besides being as barbaric as it is) is throwing away a piece of YOUR OWN history. You just do not know it. Even if you are a teacher, you can't know everything.

Otherwise - feel free please to name me catholic churches and mosques of exceptional historical or architectural value destroyed in last 70 years by Serbs or Russians. Probably they do exist, but the number is relatively humble compared with what Americans did with Catholic churches and Albanians in 2004.

Because I have a neat list of major cathedrals totally destroyed by Americans in Germany. And the entire city of Dresden. Ever visited Hildesheim, Nürnberg, Köln? What happened with all these cute "Fachwerkhaus" in Hildesheim, for instance? Did you see how did Nürnberg look in 1946? A "collateral damage" maybe?

If you feel being American - please do not talk about destruction of catholic churches. You live in home made of glass and throw rocks. Throw them gently, because Hiroshima and Nagasaki is out there, too.

As for 2004 - I was recently in Prizren. I can take you there if you are in the area. In Russia feel free to visit Novgorod and ask about the "job" Germans did there between 1941 and 1943. Also look for "New Jerusalem" close to Moscow.

An other extremely endangered area is the Estern part of Turkey, where Armenia and a large part of Georgia used to be. Almost everything what is Armenian or Georgian there is gone. This is, too, part of your history - say "thanks" to Ottomans and turko-fascists like Kemal pasha.

Regarding the expression "Religion of Albanians is Albania."

It was from a poem from an Albanian poet in the 1800-s. In the face of constant efforts by Greek nationalists and Ottomans to claim that Orthodox Albanians were Greek and Muslim Albanians Turks (for territorial purposes), he asked of Albanians of different faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim) to put nation and the Albanian cause first and above everything else.
It was a rallying cry and it has stuck since.

I personally, can't imagine a better "religion" for every nation out there.

As for these proud "Christians" here... you do know that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim... you are that way, because one of your ancestors was a convert by definition, right?
(Ment, 15 April 2010 19:07)
___________

Indeed he said

"Mos shikoni kisha dhe xhamia se feja a Shqipetarit eshte Shqipetaria".


By:Pashko Vasa.

Peggy
=====

Regarding the expression "Religion of Albanians is Albania."

It was from a poem from an Albanian poet in the 1800-s. In the face of constant efforts by Greek nationalists and Ottomans to claim that Orthodox Albanians were Greek and Muslim Albanians Turks (for territorial purposes), he asked of Albanians of different faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim) to put nation and the Albanian cause first and above everything else.
It was a rallying cry and it has stuck since.

I personally, can't imagine a better "religion" for every nation out there.

As for these proud "Christians" here... you do know that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim... you are that way, because one of your ancestors was a convert by definition, right?

Jovan
======

The pre-Christian Romans and Greeks might have had something to say about your notions of what constitutes a religion... if they were still around to speak that is.

In any case, I could care less about religions. They're all ridiculous when you dig deep and the only decent thing that came out of Hoxha's dictatorship was that it relegated religion to an even more distant place in Albanians' lives.

So..on this topic, you actually have nothing to teach me.

trudsaam,

We don't care in Vatican or Swaziland recognizes or not Kosovo as long as we are free!

The freedom that was rejected by Serbia for so long.

I am aware of Caucasus Albania and I have searched for a possible connection between the two, with no connection whatsoever,

We do not call ourselves Albanian we call ourselvs Shqiptar theoretically from the Sciptari Clan, observe the link for reference.

I am most interested looking foreword to see you provide me a link that shows the similarities of Albanian language and the Caucasus languages.

Also Stalin ally with Hoxha asked if there were possible connection between Caucasus Albania which was in the USSR with Balkan Albania. The finding :The peoples form Caucasus have nothing in common with us.
-------------------
Skiff,
I know Albanians adopted the name Squiptari but that was at a later date, Albanians calling themselves Sqhiptars which has typical -ar ending typical of turkic Asian and Caucasus tribes (like Tatars, Avars, Khazars, Magyars, Bulgars (before slavinization). The English translation of Albania is also a translation from Byzantine Arab and Armenian sources they used names in their own language to describe people not by the current native name they use. Also the reason why we see that Tosk Albanians the originals Albanians, still calling themselves "Arberian" or "Arbëreshë" in Sicily, they have not adopted the Caucasian "Sqiptar" and their language has not been infused by Circassian and Turkish influences.
Arrival of the Circassian after the turkish conquests
furthered the Caucasian character of Albanians, the original Albanians mostly went to Sicily. In 1856 significant Caucasian infusion occured as the population was not large in Southern Balkans with the exodus of Serbs, Vlahs and Tosks to Krajina, Wallachia and Sicily. Austrian colonel, Petar Kukulj in 1871
prepared a census noting
64% of the population of Kosovo, or 318.000 being Serbs leaving the rest to be a mix of Albanian and Circassian.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kN9a-QJlY1QC&pg=PA201&dq=circassian+albania&lr=&cd=13#v=onepage&q=circassian%20albania&f=false

The link above gives some detailed numbers of large Circassian infusion which should certainly disjaunt further any theories of Albanians particully in Kosovo and Northern Albania being descendants of Illyrians and prove a more significant caucasian link.
--------------------

I agree with that statement and I personally support reconciliation between the Serbs and Albanians peoples.
(Skiff, 16 April 2010 17:54)

Good to hear not too many Albanians around like that maybee had you pegged wrong.
It is interesting to note that the Austrians proposed a Bosnian Serb link to Illyrians when they needed to dislodge the Turks from the Balkans then they came in took over and proposed Albanians were Illyrians almost in the same breath as they saw Serbs nearing an outlet to the sea.
Those theories are only meant for the big powers to play us of on each other.
------------------------
I also require a link for that info because i don’t see how Serb toponyms can appear that early before their invasion.
(Skiff, 16 April 2010 17:54)

Invasion is the wrong terminology Skiff.
Here a map made in 814 by Charles the great, suggesting Serbian influence in Albania back then. You will also find evidence of Serbs in Albania during the Serb-Bulgarian War. http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/europe_814_colbeck.jpg
Bulgar conquest 1261
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Balkans1260.gif

--------------------------

In 1042 Byzantines brought the Albanians from Sicily after Baptisment, to the Balkans fighting the Serbian kingdom (double headed eagle on the red backround came at this time). The Illyrians in the modern Albanian area, a nomadic people were either assimilated or moved on as what happend when the second wave of slavs came in the 7AD and also the Turkish conquests

The first mentions of the Albanians in the Balkans is about the 1043 revolt against Constantinople and comes in Anna Comnenas account the Alexiad of the troubles in that region caused by the
Normans during the reign of her father Alexius I Comneus (1081-1118).

The Raoulii were descended from an Italo-Norman named Raoul, the Petraliphae were descended from a Pierre d'Aulps, and that group of Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from Normans who served under George Maniaces in the Sicilian expedition of 1038. The same Normans who later comlplained to the pope of too many Scythians(armenians caucasians etc) employed in the Byzantine army.

Admittingly a weak link but could be something there.

-------------------------
Can you please provide us with a link for that information? Thanks in advance

Best I could do is a limited preveiw will try to chase up some more, the event was not a major event or unique at the time so it's significance is reflected in todays's scholary works although there seems to be a connection between migrations of Caucasus, Albania and Sicily through history it is not studied in detail.

http://books.google.com.au/books?lr=&q=Tom+Winnifrith+maniaces+albanian
-------------------------
The double headed eagle was a Byzantine emblem. Greek orthodox church uses it, Albania, Serbia, Russia, Montenegro all use the double headed eagle which were all influenced by the Byzantine Empire.

So is it too much to see Albanians taking up Othodoxy. I think it might certainly remove stigmas associated with Albanian co-operation with Turks and could give common grounding with Albania's surrounding neighbours?
-------------------------

Dear dan:

You say Shipetar is caucasian? show me a document of a Shipetar clan in the east,

I showed you my link of the Sciptari caln as a tibe of Illyria.


you cant be possibly implying that shqipetar, Tatar, Maygar,,, etc have an ar ending end cound be same people? if so why is it that our language does not match.

Earlier you said that Albanian language is similar to caucasion but i asked for reference and got nothing.

I have a feeling that i wont be seeing a referance to the theorised Alb-caucasion language similarities.


please click on the link on
my previous post incase you havent already to show you my point of the Sciptari-Illyria connection.

I will not respong to all your points because the rest
are irrelevant, dating 700+AD onwards
which was the time of the south slav migration in the Ballkans and the beggining the of the slav domination in the Balkans which has no relation to our main argument which is:

The Albanian question in the Balkans.

Skiff asked,

You say Shipetar is caucasian? show me a document of a Shipetar clan in the east,

I showed you my link of the Sciptari caln as a tibe of Illyria.
-----------------------


Skiff gets,
"In their own language they call themselves Skipetar, which name bears some affinity with that of of the Skitekip, mentioned by the Armenian geographers as inhabiting a territory near the Caspian."
By Robert Jameson, Sir William Jardine, Henry Darwin
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=Skitekip&sig=XsOcDibjpKuGBXlpui13QABdWVg&ei=HLs4SoKZGImNtgep3OzSDA&ct=result&id=ShwXAAAAYAAJ&ots=4Fk__5Yhmo&output=text

Skiff also it is actually far from irrelivent to mention the Caucasian connection as I linked, 595,000 Cicassians infused in the Serb borderland (kosovo) Albania and Bulgaria is hardly irrelevent particully when there is between 60-100 thousand K Albs at the time.
Definately a large Caucasian influence.

I can also post to you many people and place names similarities in Albania and the Caucusus if you like ie Caucasian Gogari and the Albanian Gegeri.
But as I said your here and it won't change that and realisticly perhaps a waste of my time.

"The aforementioned George with the surname Maniakes, thirsting for blood, began an uprising in the Italian part of the Empire with Byzantine and Albanian soldiers there"

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1038.html
All clear now, add to that the Circassian infusion and we certainly get a Caucasian character do we not?

I also need to find it again but their is an English translation of a byzantine script in 1045(I think) describing Turks Serbs Bulgarians Avars and the new comers Albanians as all wanting part of the Empire.

Interesting links indeed,

I checked them read them, but as far as comparing the two links you need more than "supposed cauacasion"
in my opinion your posted theory does not measure up.


looks like the caucasian migrants might have mixed well with the inhabiting Sciptaris adopting their language quickly.

BTW, care to give your feedback on the link instead of posting theories?

kind of hard to grasp when you look at all invaders in the Balkans, its usually they that leave their mark on the indeginious population especially in the case with the Albanians.

I checked them read them, but as far as comparing the two links you need more than "supposed cauacasion"
in my opinion your posted theory does not measure up.
-----------------

Yet you post a Wiki Map as your supposed link if thats your yardstick I have definately surpassed it. Including references to Byzantine literiture and Armenian geographers goes a long way more than your map. Now when your ready to post something more credible maybee I can match it. Siptar name please plausable links too if you don't mind.