Serbian parliament on Srebrenica resolution

A war crime yes, genocide no - sorry Serb haters, but a genocide would have been killing the entire population, not just the men. The women and children were taken away by buses, remember? Also, the crime was committed by a general and a group working together, and not in the name of the Serbian people. Please look uo the definition of genocide before you use it, so that you can sound educated.

If Srebrenica was a genocide, then why has my country not apologized and called the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocide also?

I would be utterly shocked to see the word "genocide" in the final resolution. I'm not sure that including that term would actually leave Serbia open to future lawsuits, given that that ICJ ruling is final, but if nothing else, it would simply alienate too many Serbian voters.

Was it genocide? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it was an atrocity without parallel in the 90s Balkan wars. We know about the Serb civilians murdered by Oric's forces several years prior, and about the cleansing in Krajina, but in terms of sheer brutality, I simply can't think of any single incident from that time period that measures up to what Mladic oversaw in July 1995.

Clearly, this was no case of a renegade-officer-gone beserk taking matters into his own hands. This was well organized with top-to-bottom cooperation in the VRS, and once can only imagine that Belgrade was in on the planning. In fact, from everything I've read (and I'm not talking about American newspapers), it was common knowledge that Mladic had by that time begun to take his marching orders from Milosevic and Perisic.

This resolution will undoubtedly contain compromise language that seeks to place Srebenica in the same league as all the other crimes committed in the region from that period. This hardly seems fair, but then again, where is the American resolution on the invasion of Iraq, or the mismanaged campaign in Afghanistan? Ugly crimes are committed all over the world all of the time and most probably never wind up being addressed in laughable "resolutions" such as the one being debated in Parliament at present.

A real and lasting resolution for ex-Yu would be textbooks that teach future generations about all of the ugly crimes committed there dating back much further than the 1990s, about the truth behind those crimes. Let them learn about the Ottomans, the Balkan Wars of the early 1900s, WWs I and II and the ways in which Tito refused to address national grievances. Let them learn that the Croats, Muslims and Albanians committed awful crimes, too, and that too often, perpetrators were insufficiently punished, or not punished at all. Let them learn that most often, crimes were committed by a few in the name of the many, and that the few were power-hungry madmen who cared little about the greater good, and who possessed a remarkable ability to manipulate the masses into giving them free reign to commit their crimes.

Arton n'Karton, Tony, and PRN,
Please look up the definition of genocide and do not let your Serbophobe attitude get a hold of your common sense all the time when you comment on this site. How do you describe the mass killings of Serbs, Jews, and Roma by the Ustashe and Nazis during WWII? The mass killings of Armenians by the Ottomans? They are called genocide. Not the massacre of less than 8000 POWs, of whom many had been involved in horrific crimes against unarmed civilians.

Already voting on it?
Beautifuuuuul..the best example of great bipartisan Parliamentary work!

Tadić and Co: in the greatest hurry maybe to fulfill requests of US, EU?
Though there is a slight misjudgment: resolution which is "pushed" and does not represent the opinion of electorate is senseless though it will highly help your non-intelligent agenda of non-intentionally and incompetently destroying the country.

How about having the guts to call it for what it was? GENOCIDE? Be brave for once and don't hide from the truth. If you are going to pass a resolution condemning it, what do you have to fear?

Classical genocide. Period. Omitting a word from the term GENOCIDE from such resolution would be a moral crime too.

Nenad, I agree with some of what you wrote but I strongly disagree with Srebrenica being the worst crime. Why do you say that? Is it because of the number of people killed there?
First, we don't know the exact number but I agree that it was in the thousands.
Second, it was males of fighting age who were killed. Who were these males? Were they combatants or not? If so then they were legitimate targets.

Third, women and children were let go. This was not extermintion to make it the most horrible crime committed.

Fourth, What do you say about Opeation Storm where women and children were targeted? Was that not worse?

And last, what do you say about Medak? Now that qualifies for genocide. Women, children and even their animals were slaughtered. Don't you think that was more horriffic?

Interesting comments. Just proves that you can never please everyone. The truth is some terrible things were done. No one wants to admit it. Addressing this is a problem. If you admit it, some want you to say the other side also has to confess. Why is that? Saying "I am sorry" should not come with expectations that the other side will also apologize. What, are we in 3rd grade now and expect the other person to apologize? Are you sorry or not? That is all that matters. If the other side cannot apologize, that is their problem and they are too infantile to admit it!

Classical genocide. Period. Omitting a word from the term GENOCIDE from such resolution would be a moral crime too.
(PRN, 30 March2010 17:01)

How about having the guts to call it for what it was? GENOCIDE? Be brave for once and don't hide from the truth. If you are going to pass a resolution condemning it, what do you have to fear?
(Tony, 30 March 2010 16:21)

They are even reluctant to call the biggest crime a crime. This is the true face of 'modern Serbia' who pretends ta have overcome Milosevic.
(Arton n'Karton, 30 March 2010 16:13)

You guys are keen to have this matter addressed and so am I.

How about resolving this dispute by having an international/Bosniak/Serbian official and unbiased inquiry into the Srebrencia “massacre”. As seen from my previous comments I am a huge sceptic. However, I am willing to accept the findings and if Srebrenica did happen then so be it.

Who from the Bosniak side will join me in calling for such an inquiry?

They are even reluctant to call the biggest crime a crime. This is the true face of 'modern Serbia' who pretends ta have overcome Milosevic.

I think that Hitler wanted the total annihilation of the Jews. That was Genocide. He was prepared to cross borders to carry out a very specific plan of annihilation.

I do not think that Srebrenica was genocide - not because I have a particular defence of Serbia in this matter, but just because I do not think that the extermination of a race or group was actually the main intent in this case.

The deed itself is a crime but goes under the label of Murder or War Crime - that is not disputed even if the word Genocide is. The word Genocide is more a measure of intent and scale. The actuality was a nasty and horrible mass murder - however you label it, that is what it was

Serbia is right to apologise for its association with the mass murder. The nationalists who voted against this resolution do not realise the damage their attitude has done to the reputation of Serbia. They continue the rather pathetic total lack of awareness that Milosevic's government had about how to market yourself internationally. They also completely miss the immorality of defending murder. That is the black hole their politics has created for them and into which they dragged Serbia.

The reason I do not call this genocide, is because I believe that the underlying motivations were actually defensive rather than expansionist - the underlying motivation was fear of being ruled by under unwanted islamic rule as a repeat of an unwanted history. I think too that annihilation was never in the heart of the Serbian people - it is not and has never been their ambition to annihilate their neighbours. In fact, in their hearts they still feel victims from the annihilations that have been done on them. Srebrenica was part of a messy and paranoiac defence implemented using a mindset inherited from history.

Unfortunately that history contained a tradition of violence that is medieval. This resolution may not satisfy every definition, but I do not think that is the significant thing.

What is significant is that this is a message that never again will any group in the Balkans be able to behave in that medieval way - this is a recognition that the fundamental value systems are now being bought into the modern age. There is now an understanding of human rights that did not exist so clearly previously. There is also now an understanding that the world is watching.

What is most significant is that the nasty nationalists in Serbia have been out-voted by those who are prepared to face the difficult past and declare that it has to be answered so that their country can have a better future.

Peggy,

As horrific as Storm and Medak were, in terms of numbers killed, they don't compare.

Even if the victims of Srebrenica were primarily men of fighting age, they weren't killed in combat. That is not in dispute, and it is a clear violation of international law.

Srebrenica was planned and executed with frighteningly meticulous detail and efficiency. Bulldozers stood by to bury the victims as soon as they were shot. Ever hear of a POW camp? That is where these men should have been sent, and if the Serbs had planned for that eventuality as much as they'd planned this slaughter, it could have been accomplished without much difficulty.

It was a huge massacre but I don't think it was a genocidal act. This was most likely a revengful act for the so many atrocities perpetrated by Oric in and around Srebrenica on innocent Serbs. I do not agree that the Serb gov. should go farther than the reccognition of a massacre that should have never happened.

One step more towards future in Balkan.

Kosovo, whats about the yellow house?

Reconciliation is an essential part of any post-conflict process and this Resolution is the first evidence I've seen of any serious attempt by any Balkan country to achieve this very necessary objective. It may not be perfect, or universally accepted in the Parliament or the country, but it's a good start. People who call themselves Serbs or Bosnians or Croats or Kosovars - and NATO too, did countless awful things to tens of thousands of innocent people in this much manipulated and misunderstood region. Tadic and his enlightened colleagues have done a very good thing, even though they've probably not got the wording they'd have liked. Politics in Serbia, as elsewhere, is still the 'art of the possible'. Now, let's see if others in the region have the same courage and decency. Will Ivo Josipović now sponsor a similar resolution in the Croatian Parliament, apologising for the Croat atrocities in the Krajina and elsewhere? Can we expect a similar initiative from Fatmir Sejdiu in Kosovo; the 200,00 Kosovo Serb refugees in exile in Serbia would probably appreciate it. Give credit where it's due. Maybe Tadic and his colleagues actually mean what they say. At the very least they deserve respect for their political and personal courage. Other leaders in the region might learn from their example.

The Bosnian Muslim population living in Eastern and North-Western Bosnia was systematically destroyed by the Bosnian Serbs with the help of Serbia. Not all Serbs are to blame of course and there were many brave Serbs who stood up to Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic, etc. but it was not enough to prevent the genocide from taking place. It is time for Serbia to distance itself from the crimes that were committed in its name and to condemn the crimes, the criminals, and the fascist ideology that gave birth to the criminals and the crimes.

Why some here do not admit that it was a Genocide is beyond comprehension. ICTY and ICJ concluded that it was, keep in mind that it the same institution Serbia is asking for an opinion about Kosovos independence declaration. Maybe some would like to have the cake and eat it too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

They are even reluctant to call the biggest crime a crime. This is the true face of 'modern Serbia' who pretends ta have overcome Milosevic.

How about having the guts to call it for what it was? GENOCIDE? Be brave for once and don't hide from the truth. If you are going to pass a resolution condemning it, what do you have to fear?

Classical genocide. Period. Omitting a word from the term GENOCIDE from such resolution would be a moral crime too.

Already voting on it?
Beautifuuuuul..the best example of great bipartisan Parliamentary work!

Tadić and Co: in the greatest hurry maybe to fulfill requests of US, EU?
Though there is a slight misjudgment: resolution which is "pushed" and does not represent the opinion of electorate is senseless though it will highly help your non-intelligent agenda of non-intentionally and incompetently destroying the country.

I would be utterly shocked to see the word "genocide" in the final resolution. I'm not sure that including that term would actually leave Serbia open to future lawsuits, given that that ICJ ruling is final, but if nothing else, it would simply alienate too many Serbian voters.

Was it genocide? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it was an atrocity without parallel in the 90s Balkan wars. We know about the Serb civilians murdered by Oric's forces several years prior, and about the cleansing in Krajina, but in terms of sheer brutality, I simply can't think of any single incident from that time period that measures up to what Mladic oversaw in July 1995.

Clearly, this was no case of a renegade-officer-gone beserk taking matters into his own hands. This was well organized with top-to-bottom cooperation in the VRS, and once can only imagine that Belgrade was in on the planning. In fact, from everything I've read (and I'm not talking about American newspapers), it was common knowledge that Mladic had by that time begun to take his marching orders from Milosevic and Perisic.

This resolution will undoubtedly contain compromise language that seeks to place Srebenica in the same league as all the other crimes committed in the region from that period. This hardly seems fair, but then again, where is the American resolution on the invasion of Iraq, or the mismanaged campaign in Afghanistan? Ugly crimes are committed all over the world all of the time and most probably never wind up being addressed in laughable "resolutions" such as the one being debated in Parliament at present.

A real and lasting resolution for ex-Yu would be textbooks that teach future generations about all of the ugly crimes committed there dating back much further than the 1990s, about the truth behind those crimes. Let them learn about the Ottomans, the Balkan Wars of the early 1900s, WWs I and II and the ways in which Tito refused to address national grievances. Let them learn that the Croats, Muslims and Albanians committed awful crimes, too, and that too often, perpetrators were insufficiently punished, or not punished at all. Let them learn that most often, crimes were committed by a few in the name of the many, and that the few were power-hungry madmen who cared little about the greater good, and who possessed a remarkable ability to manipulate the masses into giving them free reign to commit their crimes.

Arton n'Karton, Tony, and PRN,
Please look up the definition of genocide and do not let your Serbophobe attitude get a hold of your common sense all the time when you comment on this site. How do you describe the mass killings of Serbs, Jews, and Roma by the Ustashe and Nazis during WWII? The mass killings of Armenians by the Ottomans? They are called genocide. Not the massacre of less than 8000 POWs, of whom many had been involved in horrific crimes against unarmed civilians.

A war crime yes, genocide no - sorry Serb haters, but a genocide would have been killing the entire population, not just the men. The women and children were taken away by buses, remember? Also, the crime was committed by a general and a group working together, and not in the name of the Serbian people. Please look uo the definition of genocide before you use it, so that you can sound educated.

If Srebrenica was a genocide, then why has my country not apologized and called the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki genocide also?

Interesting comments. Just proves that you can never please everyone. The truth is some terrible things were done. No one wants to admit it. Addressing this is a problem. If you admit it, some want you to say the other side also has to confess. Why is that? Saying "I am sorry" should not come with expectations that the other side will also apologize. What, are we in 3rd grade now and expect the other person to apologize? Are you sorry or not? That is all that matters. If the other side cannot apologize, that is their problem and they are too infantile to admit it!

Classical genocide. Period. Omitting a word from the term GENOCIDE from such resolution would be a moral crime too.
(PRN, 30 March2010 17:01)

How about having the guts to call it for what it was? GENOCIDE? Be brave for once and don't hide from the truth. If you are going to pass a resolution condemning it, what do you have to fear?
(Tony, 30 March 2010 16:21)

They are even reluctant to call the biggest crime a crime. This is the true face of 'modern Serbia' who pretends ta have overcome Milosevic.
(Arton n'Karton, 30 March 2010 16:13)

You guys are keen to have this matter addressed and so am I.

How about resolving this dispute by having an international/Bosniak/Serbian official and unbiased inquiry into the Srebrencia “massacre”. As seen from my previous comments I am a huge sceptic. However, I am willing to accept the findings and if Srebrenica did happen then so be it.

Who from the Bosniak side will join me in calling for such an inquiry?

Nenad, I agree with some of what you wrote but I strongly disagree with Srebrenica being the worst crime. Why do you say that? Is it because of the number of people killed there?
First, we don't know the exact number but I agree that it was in the thousands.
Second, it was males of fighting age who were killed. Who were these males? Were they combatants or not? If so then they were legitimate targets.

Third, women and children were let go. This was not extermintion to make it the most horrible crime committed.

Fourth, What do you say about Opeation Storm where women and children were targeted? Was that not worse?

And last, what do you say about Medak? Now that qualifies for genocide. Women, children and even their animals were slaughtered. Don't you think that was more horriffic?

Peggy,

As horrific as Storm and Medak were, in terms of numbers killed, they don't compare.

Even if the victims of Srebrenica were primarily men of fighting age, they weren't killed in combat. That is not in dispute, and it is a clear violation of international law.

Srebrenica was planned and executed with frighteningly meticulous detail and efficiency. Bulldozers stood by to bury the victims as soon as they were shot. Ever hear of a POW camp? That is where these men should have been sent, and if the Serbs had planned for that eventuality as much as they'd planned this slaughter, it could have been accomplished without much difficulty.

The Bosnian Muslim population living in Eastern and North-Western Bosnia was systematically destroyed by the Bosnian Serbs with the help of Serbia. Not all Serbs are to blame of course and there were many brave Serbs who stood up to Milosevic, Mladic, Karadzic, etc. but it was not enough to prevent the genocide from taking place. It is time for Serbia to distance itself from the crimes that were committed in its name and to condemn the crimes, the criminals, and the fascist ideology that gave birth to the criminals and the crimes.

Why some here do not admit that it was a Genocide is beyond comprehension. ICTY and ICJ concluded that it was, keep in mind that it the same institution Serbia is asking for an opinion about Kosovos independence declaration. Maybe some would like to have the cake and eat it too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Reconciliation is an essential part of any post-conflict process and this Resolution is the first evidence I've seen of any serious attempt by any Balkan country to achieve this very necessary objective. It may not be perfect, or universally accepted in the Parliament or the country, but it's a good start. People who call themselves Serbs or Bosnians or Croats or Kosovars - and NATO too, did countless awful things to tens of thousands of innocent people in this much manipulated and misunderstood region. Tadic and his enlightened colleagues have done a very good thing, even though they've probably not got the wording they'd have liked. Politics in Serbia, as elsewhere, is still the 'art of the possible'. Now, let's see if others in the region have the same courage and decency. Will Ivo Josipović now sponsor a similar resolution in the Croatian Parliament, apologising for the Croat atrocities in the Krajina and elsewhere? Can we expect a similar initiative from Fatmir Sejdiu in Kosovo; the 200,00 Kosovo Serb refugees in exile in Serbia would probably appreciate it. Give credit where it's due. Maybe Tadic and his colleagues actually mean what they say. At the very least they deserve respect for their political and personal courage. Other leaders in the region might learn from their example.

It was a huge massacre but I don't think it was a genocidal act. This was most likely a revengful act for the so many atrocities perpetrated by Oric in and around Srebrenica on innocent Serbs. I do not agree that the Serb gov. should go farther than the reccognition of a massacre that should have never happened.

One step more towards future in Balkan.

Kosovo, whats about the yellow house?

I think that Hitler wanted the total annihilation of the Jews. That was Genocide. He was prepared to cross borders to carry out a very specific plan of annihilation.

I do not think that Srebrenica was genocide - not because I have a particular defence of Serbia in this matter, but just because I do not think that the extermination of a race or group was actually the main intent in this case.

The deed itself is a crime but goes under the label of Murder or War Crime - that is not disputed even if the word Genocide is. The word Genocide is more a measure of intent and scale. The actuality was a nasty and horrible mass murder - however you label it, that is what it was

Serbia is right to apologise for its association with the mass murder. The nationalists who voted against this resolution do not realise the damage their attitude has done to the reputation of Serbia. They continue the rather pathetic total lack of awareness that Milosevic's government had about how to market yourself internationally. They also completely miss the immorality of defending murder. That is the black hole their politics has created for them and into which they dragged Serbia.

The reason I do not call this genocide, is because I believe that the underlying motivations were actually defensive rather than expansionist - the underlying motivation was fear of being ruled by under unwanted islamic rule as a repeat of an unwanted history. I think too that annihilation was never in the heart of the Serbian people - it is not and has never been their ambition to annihilate their neighbours. In fact, in their hearts they still feel victims from the annihilations that have been done on them. Srebrenica was part of a messy and paranoiac defence implemented using a mindset inherited from history.

Unfortunately that history contained a tradition of violence that is medieval. This resolution may not satisfy every definition, but I do not think that is the significant thing.

What is significant is that this is a message that never again will any group in the Balkans be able to behave in that medieval way - this is a recognition that the fundamental value systems are now being bought into the modern age. There is now an understanding of human rights that did not exist so clearly previously. There is also now an understanding that the world is watching.

What is most significant is that the nasty nationalists in Serbia have been out-voted by those who are prepared to face the difficult past and declare that it has to be answered so that their country can have a better future.