>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
(dean SRB, 29 March 2010 20:05)
Let's speak hypothetical scenarios. Assume that Kosovo loses all it's recognitions (65 UN members & Taiwan), Serbia still has no sovereignty over Kosovo.
AdamNYC - you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Cyprus has all the problems you speak of, and yet it is a member of the EU. I am not for one moment saying that anyone wants another Cyprus situation, but it does show that you are speaking nonsense.
As for the point about EU and UN being different, please spare me the introduction to international organisations. The point I made reflects a concern that has been raIsed by EU officials. It is hard to believe that the EU could, or would, admit an entity that us not considered to be a full, and fully sovereign, member of the international community. Kosovo comes nowhere near.
>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
I think it is time for the Serbian leadership to realize that Serbia will not be able to become an EU member as long as the Kosovo issue is unresolved. Europe doesn't want another Cyprus-like entity which would be a breeding ground for criminality (drugs, weapons, people smuggling, etc) to enter the union. Serbia will be allowed to proceed with the membership process over time as a means of stabilizing the situation (depending on whether Mladic is arrested or not) but final membership will not happen until Serbia recognizes Kosovo in some way. Europe has enough problems as it is and allowing a dysfunctional Serbia/Kosovo to enter (thereby bringing the conflict inside the union and destabilize the entire union) is not acceptable. Serbia and Kosovo should both continue with their reforms but membership for both will only be a dream until they both recognize each other and respect each other.
"...Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
(bganon, 29 March 2010 00:57) ..."
>>> Well...hehe...then it is the time for the "last stand".
National ideas may be fulfilled or not (Republika Srpska, Kosovo)...it does not depends on us only. That's one major stumbling block delaying us now from prosperity and or EU = for the once who thinks that is the way to go.
Another stumbling block, even more dangerous, is Mišković and Co and that one must be eliminated one way or another and now.
Mišković, monopoles, corruption and prosperity or EU on another side do not go together.
Us or them!
And concerning their human "moral" characteristics...that's the twisted Balkan egocentric incompetent and dummy primitivism.
Evilness would be too positively connotated option.
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU. "
I wonder if tadic makes an effort to fabricate these imagined rules... or if he does it on the fly... in either case, the EU and UN are different organizations...one does not preclude the other.
Serbia will NEVER become a EU member without recognizing kosovo.. NEVER. If we were to pretend to take serbias deluded stance... then it admittedly has no control over its entire area, a massive number of its own population that doesnt recognize it ... on and on it goes.. serbia FAILS to qualify for eu membership per EU rules.
dean LDP are the only parliamentary party that has made anti monopolist Miskovic statements npr http://www.naslovi.net/rd/348328
All the other parties have taken money from Miskovic and are quiet about him - I can't say for sure about Nikolic's party, but I suspect they must have needed a lot of money for new party and their functionaries.
I say to everyone that the greatest clue is the lack of criticism from a political party, or political parties that try to use diversion tactics in only talking about certain issues.
Of course the problem is that a party that is anti Miskovic could well be getting financial support from a rival monopolist. And to make matters more complicated the money parties expect from monopolists has a time limit - ie if they used to receive money from that 'businessman' he will have silence from then for a year or two and then they begin to attack him - unless he pays of course.
Its a dirty business. The whole system is sick and although I don't defend them, this is the system in which the monopolists and politicians were born.
Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
"...Bosnia-Herzegovina must be a country of three equal nations..."
Is the key phrase here. I'm sure, Haris, Ejup & Hasan do not agree and consider themselves as the sole heirs to 'Bosnia' as belonging to the 'bosniaks' as the majority group.
Apart from recent (though only just formalized news) that the main bosnian serb party and main bosnian croat party are cooperating on all levels.
Why is this important? Because the EU/US plan is isolating and selling the bosnian serbs as the sole obstructionists to Bosnia joining the EU (and NATO). In this way they hope(!) to entice the Serbs to voluntarily give up the RS.
Unfortunately this black propaganda against the RS wi manifold and oft repeated in western european and american media, as well as by Brussels and Washington.
The croats have ultimately aligned themselves with the serbs in bosnia because in such an scenario, the would come a very, very poor third. Together they can protect their identity, something the SDA and fans wish to minimized and place as 'other' after themselves.
It will be interesting to see what Washington and Brussels' subsequent moves will be and whether the croats will crumble under inevitable pressure that will be applied one way or another directly and via the motherland.
When this fails, the EU will then have to come up with another plan that does not, in all but name erase, the RS as an entity, a major foreign policy adjustment, i.e some form of status quo where serbs and croats in Bosnia are recognized in perpetuity and not solely linked to Dayton.
Back to the opening quote, it seems to me that this is Serbia and Croatia flipping Brussels the bird over their current bosnia policy. Good stuff!
As for 'genocide', what exactly do they think this will bring them? Money? Unquestionable moral authority? A carte blanche as officially recognized 'special victims'? Or that Izetbegovic was a bumbling, manipulated innocent?
It's is long since time the SDA and its fan club admitted its active role in events (I realy hope that Abic testifies at Karadzic's trial). It is impossible to forget the past and won't be forgiven nor forgotten, but it is time to move on when it comes to Bosnia. Shame particularly on all those who seek to elevate Bosnia to the Holocaust, the armenian genocide, Jasenovac, E. Timor and Rwanda, and seek to profit from it.
I've noticed how far more productive these conferences are when Belgrade is present. This informal meeting along made the gathering at Brdo last week even more inconsequential.
"Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU."
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)
It is funny that the B92 moderators asked a few days ago to somebody to not copy text from other sources in the comments and make it look as their own, or if they copy text to bring the sources at least. Those 4 stages I talked about are not my invention, but copied from the report of the international commission from the Balkans in 2005, that was composed by politicians from the EU and from the countries of the Western Balkans. Page 18 referred to the link, otherwise the comment makes little sense. B92, a couple of lines in the previous comment with the link to the source got lost somewhere.
Let me try to post it again as an answer to Jim as well.
The report is at the bottom of this page:
Jim, if Serbia has been allowed not to be hostage of the status of Kosovo in regards to EU membership, Kosovo will be allowed as well to join the EU without being hostage of the status issue. Many formulas can be invented for that to happen. There is a whole world of possibilities in the phrase "agree to disagree". You speak about possible problems being imported in the EU. I agree that there might be problems, but if you think of the meaning of the word "problem" it is something that is created, it does not exist on its own. In this specific case those "problems" might be created by Serbia, which is still in the position to create them. Kosovo might also create problems, but I see it less likely for Kosovo to create them, because it is still a weak state, and controlled by the EU in a large degree. The recent calls to Serbia for "cooperation" are also calls to not create problems.
I think it is a bit weird that Tadic is calling on the EU to put obstacles/conditions to Kosovo on the same issue that has NOT been put as an obstacle/condition to Serbia.
I thought that only Albanians were the drug dealers? Who were the perpetrators? Were they Serbians since their president is talking about? Then if the drug dealers are Serbians how come that Albanians have the bed reputation. It looks like calling “wolf wolf “ but the real bad deeds are named jackal
""...But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
(bganon, 28 March 2010 15:49) ..."
>>> Guess we agree on just about everything mentioned this time....though I do not know for any anti-Mišković party you suggest?
His money will buy any of present politician coming on power with their corrupted mind sets.
Just the brutal scrutiny of pointing at Mišković and others...corrupted mafia imeria's on daily basis and by the public word and rebellion can bring the results.
Nothing to loose as it stands now...with Mišković and team we are sure prosperity future-less.
EU knows that Serbia's entry to the block is still years away, so why press so early the controversial question.
Except for the media, no EU diplomat worth his salt would put the Serbian leaders in the ackward position of having to choose publicly between Kosovo and EU.
Meanwhile as they let this issue to rest for the years in which Tadic will be in power, they obtain Serbia's cooperation in Bosnia and work to help Kosovo strengthen its still weak state. EU are not a bully. They work with long term goals and the block, Kosovo and current Serbian leaders are all winners. The Serbian citizens are winners too in this process, although many would rather take Kosovo than a better life (at least when speaking in public).
KU - EU officials don't like to answer the question of whether UN membership is a formal requirement for accession. However, in private there is a widespread realisation that it must be. UN membership means membership of, and participation in, many other intergovernmental organisations that govern international cooperation. The EU cannot afford to have its full participation in these bodies affected by the disputed status of one of it's members. Kosovo cannot be a fully functioning member of the international community without UN membership - whatever some of the commenters here like to say.
"...The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)..."
>>> Please allow me to characterize this as infantile intelectual exercise of useless and not-talented EU office rats.
There is no brain in this pushy "pg 18" attempt.
Idea there is, from "sovereignty" via "sovereignty" to "sovereignty".
For your info, KosovA will never have actual "sovereignty".
It will only stay the sovereign example of arrogant western bully against Serbia.
dean I agree with you on the priorities - the problem is which political parties will ever fight against corruption and which parties will fight against tycoons, like Miskovic?
So again it is a case of your principled intentions being wishful thinking. I am not a supporter of EU (not against EU either) but at least they can use their money to force national government to take some measures against corruption. Although, as we know, this has had limited success in Bulgaria and Romania...
Otherwise we can just agree what should be done and watch as nothing is done, as usual.
But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU."
Not really completely clear, to me at least. EU make their own rules for joining. They will most likely not require UN membership for Kosovo to join. If they came up with something like signing but immediately freezing the SAA with Serbia they surely can come up with a formula for Kosovo to join.
The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU.
Tadić said that "Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Thanks for "enlightening" the audiance but following Tadic's logic it would be more realistic to say that Kosovo/a and its resident are citizens of the EU as integral part of Albania. At the end of the day same nation, same language, same culture...
"Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Yes Mr. Tadic, only if I were so naive to trust you. I do not believe there is any part of the country where some of its people can travel without visa and some other need visa even if they have same passport. Also, I do not believe there is any country or better saying leader of any country who signs protocols that call administrative lines BORDERS only to achieve the partial free visa regime. Fortunately for you there are still many who trust you.
EU condition is irrelevant. Relevant is our precondition and willingness that we ourselves do organize functional state by:
- getting rid of corruption,
- getting rid of Mišković and taikuns,
-providing and organizing everything which must understand one organized state...investement conditions...qalified health insurance, schooling...
-and finally, or to start with, getting rid of politicians of your kind(though there will be not much left then)...
And after we complete all of this we will not be needing EU anymore or even better we will be kindly asked to join in.
In other words, we do have to fix up our own home alone and your promise of some future, distant better life...this time under the umbrella of EU...we Serbians do listen all back from Tito's communist time.
NO MORE!!!
Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province.
" but as a southern Serbian province" There is an old saying" you let out a lie, and your repeat it over and over again, and finally you will beleive your own lie"
EU condition is irrelevant. Relevant is our precondition and willingness that we ourselves do organize functional state by:
- getting rid of corruption,
- getting rid of Mišković and taikuns,
-providing and organizing everything which must understand one organized state...investement conditions...qalified health insurance, schooling...
-and finally, or to start with, getting rid of politicians of your kind(though there will be not much left then)...
And after we complete all of this we will not be needing EU anymore or even better we will be kindly asked to join in.
In other words, we do have to fix up our own home alone and your promise of some future, distant better life...this time under the umbrella of EU...we Serbians do listen all back from Tito's communist time.
NO MORE!!!
Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province.
" but as a southern Serbian province" There is an old saying" you let out a lie, and your repeat it over and over again, and finally you will beleive your own lie"
"...The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)..."
>>> Please allow me to characterize this as infantile intelectual exercise of useless and not-talented EU office rats.
There is no brain in this pushy "pg 18" attempt.
Idea there is, from "sovereignty" via "sovereignty" to "sovereignty".
For your info, KosovA will never have actual "sovereignty".
It will only stay the sovereign example of arrogant western bully against Serbia.
"Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Yes Mr. Tadic, only if I were so naive to trust you. I do not believe there is any part of the country where some of its people can travel without visa and some other need visa even if they have same passport. Also, I do not believe there is any country or better saying leader of any country who signs protocols that call administrative lines BORDERS only to achieve the partial free visa regime. Fortunately for you there are still many who trust you.
Tadić said that "Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Thanks for "enlightening" the audiance but following Tadic's logic it would be more realistic to say that Kosovo/a and its resident are citizens of the EU as integral part of Albania. At the end of the day same nation, same language, same culture...
KU - EU officials don't like to answer the question of whether UN membership is a formal requirement for accession. However, in private there is a widespread realisation that it must be. UN membership means membership of, and participation in, many other intergovernmental organisations that govern international cooperation. The EU cannot afford to have its full participation in these bodies affected by the disputed status of one of it's members. Kosovo cannot be a fully functioning member of the international community without UN membership - whatever some of the commenters here like to say.
dean I agree with you on the priorities - the problem is which political parties will ever fight against corruption and which parties will fight against tycoons, like Miskovic?
So again it is a case of your principled intentions being wishful thinking. I am not a supporter of EU (not against EU either) but at least they can use their money to force national government to take some measures against corruption. Although, as we know, this has had limited success in Bulgaria and Romania...
Otherwise we can just agree what should be done and watch as nothing is done, as usual.
But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU."
Not really completely clear, to me at least. EU make their own rules for joining. They will most likely not require UN membership for Kosovo to join. If they came up with something like signing but immediately freezing the SAA with Serbia they surely can come up with a formula for Kosovo to join.
The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU.
I've noticed how far more productive these conferences are when Belgrade is present. This informal meeting along made the gathering at Brdo last week even more inconsequential.
EU knows that Serbia's entry to the block is still years away, so why press so early the controversial question.
Except for the media, no EU diplomat worth his salt would put the Serbian leaders in the ackward position of having to choose publicly between Kosovo and EU.
Meanwhile as they let this issue to rest for the years in which Tadic will be in power, they obtain Serbia's cooperation in Bosnia and work to help Kosovo strengthen its still weak state. EU are not a bully. They work with long term goals and the block, Kosovo and current Serbian leaders are all winners. The Serbian citizens are winners too in this process, although many would rather take Kosovo than a better life (at least when speaking in public).
""...But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
(bganon, 28 March 2010 15:49) ..."
>>> Guess we agree on just about everything mentioned this time....though I do not know for any anti-Mišković party you suggest?
His money will buy any of present politician coming on power with their corrupted mind sets.
Just the brutal scrutiny of pointing at Mišković and others...corrupted mafia imeria's on daily basis and by the public word and rebellion can bring the results.
Nothing to loose as it stands now...with Mišković and team we are sure prosperity future-less.
I thought that only Albanians were the drug dealers? Who were the perpetrators? Were they Serbians since their president is talking about? Then if the drug dealers are Serbians how come that Albanians have the bed reputation. It looks like calling “wolf wolf “ but the real bad deeds are named jackal
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU. "
I wonder if tadic makes an effort to fabricate these imagined rules... or if he does it on the fly... in either case, the EU and UN are different organizations...one does not preclude the other.
Serbia will NEVER become a EU member without recognizing kosovo.. NEVER. If we were to pretend to take serbias deluded stance... then it admittedly has no control over its entire area, a massive number of its own population that doesnt recognize it ... on and on it goes.. serbia FAILS to qualify for eu membership per EU rules.
"...Bosnia-Herzegovina must be a country of three equal nations..."
Is the key phrase here. I'm sure, Haris, Ejup & Hasan do not agree and consider themselves as the sole heirs to 'Bosnia' as belonging to the 'bosniaks' as the majority group.
Apart from recent (though only just formalized news) that the main bosnian serb party and main bosnian croat party are cooperating on all levels.
Why is this important? Because the EU/US plan is isolating and selling the bosnian serbs as the sole obstructionists to Bosnia joining the EU (and NATO). In this way they hope(!) to entice the Serbs to voluntarily give up the RS.
Unfortunately this black propaganda against the RS wi manifold and oft repeated in western european and american media, as well as by Brussels and Washington.
The croats have ultimately aligned themselves with the serbs in bosnia because in such an scenario, the would come a very, very poor third. Together they can protect their identity, something the SDA and fans wish to minimized and place as 'other' after themselves.
It will be interesting to see what Washington and Brussels' subsequent moves will be and whether the croats will crumble under inevitable pressure that will be applied one way or another directly and via the motherland.
When this fails, the EU will then have to come up with another plan that does not, in all but name erase, the RS as an entity, a major foreign policy adjustment, i.e some form of status quo where serbs and croats in Bosnia are recognized in perpetuity and not solely linked to Dayton.
Back to the opening quote, it seems to me that this is Serbia and Croatia flipping Brussels the bird over their current bosnia policy. Good stuff!
As for 'genocide', what exactly do they think this will bring them? Money? Unquestionable moral authority? A carte blanche as officially recognized 'special victims'? Or that Izetbegovic was a bumbling, manipulated innocent?
It's is long since time the SDA and its fan club admitted its active role in events (I realy hope that Abic testifies at Karadzic's trial). It is impossible to forget the past and won't be forgiven nor forgotten, but it is time to move on when it comes to Bosnia. Shame particularly on all those who seek to elevate Bosnia to the Holocaust, the armenian genocide, Jasenovac, E. Timor and Rwanda, and seek to profit from it.
dean LDP are the only parliamentary party that has made anti monopolist Miskovic statements npr http://www.naslovi.net/rd/348328
All the other parties have taken money from Miskovic and are quiet about him - I can't say for sure about Nikolic's party, but I suspect they must have needed a lot of money for new party and their functionaries.
I say to everyone that the greatest clue is the lack of criticism from a political party, or political parties that try to use diversion tactics in only talking about certain issues.
Of course the problem is that a party that is anti Miskovic could well be getting financial support from a rival monopolist. And to make matters more complicated the money parties expect from monopolists has a time limit - ie if they used to receive money from that 'businessman' he will have silence from then for a year or two and then they begin to attack him - unless he pays of course.
Its a dirty business. The whole system is sick and although I don't defend them, this is the system in which the monopolists and politicians were born.
Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
"Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU."
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)
It is funny that the B92 moderators asked a few days ago to somebody to not copy text from other sources in the comments and make it look as their own, or if they copy text to bring the sources at least. Those 4 stages I talked about are not my invention, but copied from the report of the international commission from the Balkans in 2005, that was composed by politicians from the EU and from the countries of the Western Balkans. Page 18 referred to the link, otherwise the comment makes little sense. B92, a couple of lines in the previous comment with the link to the source got lost somewhere.
Let me try to post it again as an answer to Jim as well.
The report is at the bottom of this page:
Jim, if Serbia has been allowed not to be hostage of the status of Kosovo in regards to EU membership, Kosovo will be allowed as well to join the EU without being hostage of the status issue. Many formulas can be invented for that to happen. There is a whole world of possibilities in the phrase "agree to disagree". You speak about possible problems being imported in the EU. I agree that there might be problems, but if you think of the meaning of the word "problem" it is something that is created, it does not exist on its own. In this specific case those "problems" might be created by Serbia, which is still in the position to create them. Kosovo might also create problems, but I see it less likely for Kosovo to create them, because it is still a weak state, and controlled by the EU in a large degree. The recent calls to Serbia for "cooperation" are also calls to not create problems.
I think it is a bit weird that Tadic is calling on the EU to put obstacles/conditions to Kosovo on the same issue that has NOT been put as an obstacle/condition to Serbia.
"...Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
(bganon, 29 March 2010 00:57) ..."
>>> Well...hehe...then it is the time for the "last stand".
National ideas may be fulfilled or not (Republika Srpska, Kosovo)...it does not depends on us only. That's one major stumbling block delaying us now from prosperity and or EU = for the once who thinks that is the way to go.
Another stumbling block, even more dangerous, is Mišković and Co and that one must be eliminated one way or another and now.
Mišković, monopoles, corruption and prosperity or EU on another side do not go together.
Us or them!
And concerning their human "moral" characteristics...that's the twisted Balkan egocentric incompetent and dummy primitivism.
Evilness would be too positively connotated option.
>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
AdamNYC - you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Cyprus has all the problems you speak of, and yet it is a member of the EU. I am not for one moment saying that anyone wants another Cyprus situation, but it does show that you are speaking nonsense.
As for the point about EU and UN being different, please spare me the introduction to international organisations. The point I made reflects a concern that has been raIsed by EU officials. It is hard to believe that the EU could, or would, admit an entity that us not considered to be a full, and fully sovereign, member of the international community. Kosovo comes nowhere near.
I think it is time for the Serbian leadership to realize that Serbia will not be able to become an EU member as long as the Kosovo issue is unresolved. Europe doesn't want another Cyprus-like entity which would be a breeding ground for criminality (drugs, weapons, people smuggling, etc) to enter the union. Serbia will be allowed to proceed with the membership process over time as a means of stabilizing the situation (depending on whether Mladic is arrested or not) but final membership will not happen until Serbia recognizes Kosovo in some way. Europe has enough problems as it is and allowing a dysfunctional Serbia/Kosovo to enter (thereby bringing the conflict inside the union and destabilize the entire union) is not acceptable. Serbia and Kosovo should both continue with their reforms but membership for both will only be a dream until they both recognize each other and respect each other.
>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
(dean SRB, 29 March 2010 20:05)
Let's speak hypothetical scenarios. Assume that Kosovo loses all it's recognitions (65 UN members & Taiwan), Serbia still has no sovereignty over Kosovo.
Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province.
" but as a southern Serbian province" There is an old saying" you let out a lie, and your repeat it over and over again, and finally you will beleive your own lie"
Tadić said that "Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Thanks for "enlightening" the audiance but following Tadic's logic it would be more realistic to say that Kosovo/a and its resident are citizens of the EU as integral part of Albania. At the end of the day same nation, same language, same culture...
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU."
Not really completely clear, to me at least. EU make their own rules for joining. They will most likely not require UN membership for Kosovo to join. If they came up with something like signing but immediately freezing the SAA with Serbia they surely can come up with a formula for Kosovo to join.
The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU.
"...The steps for Kosovo are:
1) 1244 (stage one).
2) independence without full sovereignity (stage 2)
3) guided sovereignity (stage 3)
4) shared sovereignity (stage 4) inside the EU like every other country.
I would say we are between 2 and 3.
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)..."
>>> Please allow me to characterize this as infantile intelectual exercise of useless and not-talented EU office rats.
There is no brain in this pushy "pg 18" attempt.
Idea there is, from "sovereignty" via "sovereignty" to "sovereignty".
For your info, KosovA will never have actual "sovereignty".
It will only stay the sovereign example of arrogant western bully against Serbia.
EU condition is irrelevant. Relevant is our precondition and willingness that we ourselves do organize functional state by:
- getting rid of corruption,
- getting rid of Mišković and taikuns,
-providing and organizing everything which must understand one organized state...investement conditions...qalified health insurance, schooling...
-and finally, or to start with, getting rid of politicians of your kind(though there will be not much left then)...
And after we complete all of this we will not be needing EU anymore or even better we will be kindly asked to join in.
In other words, we do have to fix up our own home alone and your promise of some future, distant better life...this time under the umbrella of EU...we Serbians do listen all back from Tito's communist time.
NO MORE!!!
"Tadić said that Serbia accepts that Kosovo and all its residents are citizens of the EU, but as a southern Serbian province."
Yes Mr. Tadic, only if I were so naive to trust you. I do not believe there is any part of the country where some of its people can travel without visa and some other need visa even if they have same passport. Also, I do not believe there is any country or better saying leader of any country who signs protocols that call administrative lines BORDERS only to achieve the partial free visa regime. Fortunately for you there are still many who trust you.
"When we are speaking of the EU integration process, it is completely clear that only UN member-states can join the EU. "
I wonder if tadic makes an effort to fabricate these imagined rules... or if he does it on the fly... in either case, the EU and UN are different organizations...one does not preclude the other.
Serbia will NEVER become a EU member without recognizing kosovo.. NEVER. If we were to pretend to take serbias deluded stance... then it admittedly has no control over its entire area, a massive number of its own population that doesnt recognize it ... on and on it goes.. serbia FAILS to qualify for eu membership per EU rules.
I think it is time for the Serbian leadership to realize that Serbia will not be able to become an EU member as long as the Kosovo issue is unresolved. Europe doesn't want another Cyprus-like entity which would be a breeding ground for criminality (drugs, weapons, people smuggling, etc) to enter the union. Serbia will be allowed to proceed with the membership process over time as a means of stabilizing the situation (depending on whether Mladic is arrested or not) but final membership will not happen until Serbia recognizes Kosovo in some way. Europe has enough problems as it is and allowing a dysfunctional Serbia/Kosovo to enter (thereby bringing the conflict inside the union and destabilize the entire union) is not acceptable. Serbia and Kosovo should both continue with their reforms but membership for both will only be a dream until they both recognize each other and respect each other.
EU knows that Serbia's entry to the block is still years away, so why press so early the controversial question.
Except for the media, no EU diplomat worth his salt would put the Serbian leaders in the ackward position of having to choose publicly between Kosovo and EU.
Meanwhile as they let this issue to rest for the years in which Tadic will be in power, they obtain Serbia's cooperation in Bosnia and work to help Kosovo strengthen its still weak state. EU are not a bully. They work with long term goals and the block, Kosovo and current Serbian leaders are all winners. The Serbian citizens are winners too in this process, although many would rather take Kosovo than a better life (at least when speaking in public).
I thought that only Albanians were the drug dealers? Who were the perpetrators? Were they Serbians since their president is talking about? Then if the drug dealers are Serbians how come that Albanians have the bed reputation. It looks like calling “wolf wolf “ but the real bad deeds are named jackal
KU - EU officials don't like to answer the question of whether UN membership is a formal requirement for accession. However, in private there is a widespread realisation that it must be. UN membership means membership of, and participation in, many other intergovernmental organisations that govern international cooperation. The EU cannot afford to have its full participation in these bodies affected by the disputed status of one of it's members. Kosovo cannot be a fully functioning member of the international community without UN membership - whatever some of the commenters here like to say.
"Page 18. I would not take the meaning of those 4 stages literally, because most of those who wrote that report are not decision-makers today, I would see it as the description of the path of the Western Balkans, Kosovo included, in the EU."
(KU, 28 March 2010 14:14)
It is funny that the B92 moderators asked a few days ago to somebody to not copy text from other sources in the comments and make it look as their own, or if they copy text to bring the sources at least. Those 4 stages I talked about are not my invention, but copied from the report of the international commission from the Balkans in 2005, that was composed by politicians from the EU and from the countries of the Western Balkans. Page 18 referred to the link, otherwise the comment makes little sense. B92, a couple of lines in the previous comment with the link to the source got lost somewhere.
Let me try to post it again as an answer to Jim as well.
The report is at the bottom of this page:
Jim, if Serbia has been allowed not to be hostage of the status of Kosovo in regards to EU membership, Kosovo will be allowed as well to join the EU without being hostage of the status issue. Many formulas can be invented for that to happen. There is a whole world of possibilities in the phrase "agree to disagree". You speak about possible problems being imported in the EU. I agree that there might be problems, but if you think of the meaning of the word "problem" it is something that is created, it does not exist on its own. In this specific case those "problems" might be created by Serbia, which is still in the position to create them. Kosovo might also create problems, but I see it less likely for Kosovo to create them, because it is still a weak state, and controlled by the EU in a large degree. The recent calls to Serbia for "cooperation" are also calls to not create problems.
I think it is a bit weird that Tadic is calling on the EU to put obstacles/conditions to Kosovo on the same issue that has NOT been put as an obstacle/condition to Serbia.
I've noticed how far more productive these conferences are when Belgrade is present. This informal meeting along made the gathering at Brdo last week even more inconsequential.
dean I agree with you on the priorities - the problem is which political parties will ever fight against corruption and which parties will fight against tycoons, like Miskovic?
So again it is a case of your principled intentions being wishful thinking. I am not a supporter of EU (not against EU either) but at least they can use their money to force national government to take some measures against corruption. Although, as we know, this has had limited success in Bulgaria and Romania...
Otherwise we can just agree what should be done and watch as nothing is done, as usual.
But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
""...But I will tell you something that you probably won't agree with. Unlike most here I would not mind the only anti Miskovic party to join the government, just for that particular policy.
(bganon, 28 March 2010 15:49) ..."
>>> Guess we agree on just about everything mentioned this time....though I do not know for any anti-Mišković party you suggest?
His money will buy any of present politician coming on power with their corrupted mind sets.
Just the brutal scrutiny of pointing at Mišković and others...corrupted mafia imeria's on daily basis and by the public word and rebellion can bring the results.
Nothing to loose as it stands now...with Mišković and team we are sure prosperity future-less.
"...Bosnia-Herzegovina must be a country of three equal nations..."
Is the key phrase here. I'm sure, Haris, Ejup & Hasan do not agree and consider themselves as the sole heirs to 'Bosnia' as belonging to the 'bosniaks' as the majority group.
Apart from recent (though only just formalized news) that the main bosnian serb party and main bosnian croat party are cooperating on all levels.
Why is this important? Because the EU/US plan is isolating and selling the bosnian serbs as the sole obstructionists to Bosnia joining the EU (and NATO). In this way they hope(!) to entice the Serbs to voluntarily give up the RS.
Unfortunately this black propaganda against the RS wi manifold and oft repeated in western european and american media, as well as by Brussels and Washington.
The croats have ultimately aligned themselves with the serbs in bosnia because in such an scenario, the would come a very, very poor third. Together they can protect their identity, something the SDA and fans wish to minimized and place as 'other' after themselves.
It will be interesting to see what Washington and Brussels' subsequent moves will be and whether the croats will crumble under inevitable pressure that will be applied one way or another directly and via the motherland.
When this fails, the EU will then have to come up with another plan that does not, in all but name erase, the RS as an entity, a major foreign policy adjustment, i.e some form of status quo where serbs and croats in Bosnia are recognized in perpetuity and not solely linked to Dayton.
Back to the opening quote, it seems to me that this is Serbia and Croatia flipping Brussels the bird over their current bosnia policy. Good stuff!
As for 'genocide', what exactly do they think this will bring them? Money? Unquestionable moral authority? A carte blanche as officially recognized 'special victims'? Or that Izetbegovic was a bumbling, manipulated innocent?
It's is long since time the SDA and its fan club admitted its active role in events (I realy hope that Abic testifies at Karadzic's trial). It is impossible to forget the past and won't be forgiven nor forgotten, but it is time to move on when it comes to Bosnia. Shame particularly on all those who seek to elevate Bosnia to the Holocaust, the armenian genocide, Jasenovac, E. Timor and Rwanda, and seek to profit from it.
>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
>>> Curiosity kills the cat...but let me still ask you:
do you see the reversal of "Kosovo recognition" as an option and if not, why...and if yes, why?
(dean SRB, 29 March 2010 20:05)
Let's speak hypothetical scenarios. Assume that Kosovo loses all it's recognitions (65 UN members & Taiwan), Serbia still has no sovereignty over Kosovo.
"...Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
(bganon, 29 March 2010 00:57) ..."
>>> Well...hehe...then it is the time for the "last stand".
National ideas may be fulfilled or not (Republika Srpska, Kosovo)...it does not depends on us only. That's one major stumbling block delaying us now from prosperity and or EU = for the once who thinks that is the way to go.
Another stumbling block, even more dangerous, is Mišković and Co and that one must be eliminated one way or another and now.
Mišković, monopoles, corruption and prosperity or EU on another side do not go together.
Us or them!
And concerning their human "moral" characteristics...that's the twisted Balkan egocentric incompetent and dummy primitivism.
Evilness would be too positively connotated option.
AdamNYC - you really have no idea what you are talking about, do you? Cyprus has all the problems you speak of, and yet it is a member of the EU. I am not for one moment saying that anyone wants another Cyprus situation, but it does show that you are speaking nonsense.
As for the point about EU and UN being different, please spare me the introduction to international organisations. The point I made reflects a concern that has been raIsed by EU officials. It is hard to believe that the EU could, or would, admit an entity that us not considered to be a full, and fully sovereign, member of the international community. Kosovo comes nowhere near.
dean LDP are the only parliamentary party that has made anti monopolist Miskovic statements npr http://www.naslovi.net/rd/348328
All the other parties have taken money from Miskovic and are quiet about him - I can't say for sure about Nikolic's party, but I suspect they must have needed a lot of money for new party and their functionaries.
I say to everyone that the greatest clue is the lack of criticism from a political party, or political parties that try to use diversion tactics in only talking about certain issues.
Of course the problem is that a party that is anti Miskovic could well be getting financial support from a rival monopolist. And to make matters more complicated the money parties expect from monopolists has a time limit - ie if they used to receive money from that 'businessman' he will have silence from then for a year or two and then they begin to attack him - unless he pays of course.
Its a dirty business. The whole system is sick and although I don't defend them, this is the system in which the monopolists and politicians were born.
Somehow we have to force counter measures through, because if we leave it to them they will rob us to the last dinar. Not because they are evil really, just because they believe it is normal.
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