Serbian, Croatian presidents on lawsuits

Typical behaviour from myopic and naive Serbs. Croats are guilty of two genocides, in WWII and in 1995 (Operation Storm), and as a result, there are virtualy no Serbs left in Croatia. Tadic's western advisors would love to see him drop this suit, because of the US/Germany's own involvement in sponsoring the genocideal Operation Storm. Josipovic's country, Croatia, celebrates Operation Storm as a national holiday. Let me repeat, they celebrate a genocide against Serbs as a national holiday. They recognize a fake, illegal and immoral state on Serbian soil.

I would not drop this suit, it is an insult to the Serbian victims. When are Serbs going to wake up finaly? After being duped by Tito into 'bratstvo i jedinstvo', after giving up their identities to become 'Yugoslavs' instead of Serbs (while all others kept their identities), after 'forgiving and forgetting Jasenovac' for the sake of 'bratstvo i jedinstvo'...where has all this goodwill got us?
I will tell you where. Every one of our neighbours has stabbed us in the back except for Bosnia, and that is only because of Republika Srpska. Serbs need to wake up, and look after themselves, and only after themselves, because this fantasy of all our neighbours loving us and singing kumbaya together, is just that, a fantasy. They have shown their treacherous ways, many times. I am under no illusions like many here. They are jealous of Serbs, and have a serious complex, and it will always be that way.
Cheers!!

Its good to see both Tadic and Josipovic behaving in this responsible manner on this issue.

Josipovic is a willing partner of Serbia but I would add that this doesn't mean that the Serbophobic nature of parts of Croatian politics have changed.

From a Serbian perspective there are still a number of serious issues to be dealt with including the rights of Serbs of Crotia (to return and conditions in Croatia) and sadly the kosovo issue further undermines relations.

Still, I hope others will join me in the general sense of positivity. Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.

"...Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.
(bganon, 25 March 2010 10:46) ..."

>>> In respond to your conclusion, from that "better relation" main beneficiary will be Croatia and not Serbia: it will speed up their EU admission and it will open for them additionally Serbian markets, what are theirs two main, and I could say only, goals of this "political" initiative.
On the other side our EU bid is just one distant, unsuccessful dream so in that context "EU requested regional cooperation" is then irrelevant in this case and second of all Croatian markets will stay closed to Serbia's economic impact, due to their anti-Serbian or Serbophobic protectionism, as it is known and as it is now.

So "improving" the relations with Croatia for Serbia means next to nothing unfortunately due to their predominant ill faith toward our country.
With this "bganon", sorry for breaking of your pacifistic utopia clouds.

Wow, bganon, you are full of ingenious ideas. Let's buy food from Croatia, even though Serbia has enough food to feed half of Europe!! lol

How's this for an idea, bganon...instead of buying food from people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they hate you, and putting money into their pockets, how about buying Serbian products that are produced in Serbia, which in turn will create jobs in Serbia instead of Croatia?? It's not rocket science. The more self sufficient Serbia is, the better. That is what Dean was talking about by eliminating the trade deficit.
Go ahead though, keep buying your Kras wafers, you are only hurting yourself. I will stick with Soko Stark products.
Cheers!!

dean it can't be helped that some think that having worse relations with Croatia will help Serbia or Serbs.

But if you explain to me how (an uncooperative activity) this helps Serbs, I would be glad to listen. Also maybe you can help explain how a negative attitude will help their 'ill faith' towards our country.

If you are talking about hurting Croats, as your priority. I am not interested. What interests me is not some unhealthy complex to see my neighbours garden get trashed.

I want my garden to be improved, and if it improves his at the same time, no problem. Self interest can also have an alturistic nature. Negativity hurts yourself and your neighbour.

"Its good to see both Tadic and Josipovic behaving in this responsible manner on this issue." (bganon)

-- Not only that, it's a breath of fresh air to blow away the poison that existed between the two countries for the last 15 years. Can anyone even think such dialogue could have taken place with someone like Mesic or Sanader?

Reconciliation begins with small steps in agreeing to disagree and finding a common road between the two.

For all your statements dean, true or not, I am interested in solutions, not creation of barriers.

It took you a long time to come up with something concrete with how uncooperative attitude can help, as you were so focussed on the negative - but you came up with only one thing for me to dissect. To reduce our trade deficit, are you suggesting a boycott of Croatian goods? Do you think this will achieve anything? Anything apart from bankupting Serbian business that would be boycotted in retaliation. Secondly, 'reducing our trade deficit' means in reality 'reducing the amount of imported goods in our shops' - fewer goods mean higher prices, elementary economics. In the case of Croatia we are not talking about electrical goods bought by the rich. We are talking about ordinary goods bought by people, like food. So yeah, why not, push the prices up! That really helps poor people in Serbia! Well done Dean, you have persuaded me that it will help us not to cooperate with Croatia!

The anaology of a garden was not something I dreamed up. You can't just magic a partner, just as in real life you have neighbours, Croatia IS our next door neighbour. It doesn't matter how good a partner we have in another town - the fact is the most benefit can be gained for both of us if we deal with our direct neighbour.

Now if trade deficit is the only 'positive' argument you have I suggest that all you are really doing is the easy thing - arguing against something else (that most of us agree with) - without suggesting an alternative. Plain irresponsible thinking, of which there is plenty of in the Balkans and beyond. I reject such an approach.

I have been to Croatia, in fact I even went to Croatia during the wars, so if anybody knows Croatian intolerance, it is me. But if you expect me to be emtional about it, think again. I am focussed on helping Serbia, not hurting Croatia.

Part of being an adult is understanding that things change in life. There are plenty of people who are afraid of change - they want eternal enemies (the US and its evil empire, now they have swapped it for Bin Laden). You have the same fools who hide behind anything in the US to accuse Obama when really they don't like a black man in the White House. Big deal. If we were in the US no doubt you would be telling me that because white and black were enemies in the past, that Obama must also be my enemy today?

All of it is just rubbish.

And as usual Dragan you overwhelm me with rationality...

You argue the toss with me with the argument that Serbia has enough food etc (that one usually starts with Vojvodina btw). My answer is reality. The reality is that Croatian food products are bought in Serbia. Your opinion that this should not happen does not undermine this fact - nor am I endorsing Croatian food products. Its ok to be on the fantasy side of the debate against reality but you have the bad manners to lecture Serbs on what they should and should not buy and as usual miss the argument completely.

But let me help you. One of the most important factors is price. If what you are saying is true about an unlimited supply this means the price of Serbian goods should be much lower than Croatian ones. If that were true do you think people would buy Croatian goods or cheaper home made ones?

So you repeatedly call for anti monopolist measures against rich Serbian businessmen who fix their high prices? You call for reduced profit margins for the Miskovic's of this world?

But you don't do you? Rather its more my position.

The problem is your personal mind set. You are so used to having enough money to choose which goods you want, you think that Serbs can do the same. And you begrudge those few luxury products that Serbs might occasionally enjoy such as Bajadera.

I mean what do you do when you are in Serbia and are offered such foods by your family. You refuse on 'principle'?

Frankly I find that position both anal and insulting.

Dragan Dragan The more self sufficient Serbia is, the better. Interesting Dragan, Enver Halil Hoxha, 16 October 1908 – 11 April 1985) was the Communist leader of Albania. He had the same ideas and he implemented them ruthlessly. We all know how successful that was. Mao Tse-tung same idea it was terrible suffering for the people. Slobodan Milošević the great Serb leader also put 100% duty on ex Yugo republics products we know how well that worked well for the Serb economy something to think over.

@bganon

"...it can't be helped that some think that having worse relations with Croatia will help Serbia or Serbs..."

>>> In respond and sorry for reminder, more then 90% of that nation supported vocally Nato bombing of Serbia, another survey showed tragically that 80% of Croats refuse to have a Serbian family for their next-door neighbour and recent survey showed that 72% of Croats do refuse to join EU if, as per proposal of EU institutions and with the mind of costs savings, all the relevant future EU documents are translated and used as official common serbo-croatian language, as suggested.
All this sounds nation-pathological to me.
So as per above exercise: vast majority of Croats do not want any relation with Serbia or at least nothing that we Serbians can accept as civilized mannered.


"...But if you explain to me how (an uncooperative activity) this helps Serbs, I would be glad to listen..."

>>> Your mentioned "uncooperative activity" surely does exist, but only from Croatian side. They certanly are not ready for the "equal set of minds" relation and that's for example proved with their trade protectionism.
How will Serbia's non-cooperation help there? Well, lets think in this case together: it will decrease our trade deficit for example.
Futher "non-cooperation or cooperation" from our side must be there just to serve our or equal interests and that's what Croatia is not interested in as it is proved in the parctice.


"...I want my garden to be improved, and if it improves his at the same time, no problem. Self interest can also have an alturistic nature. Negativity hurts yourself and your neighbour..."


>>>If you want your garden to improve and blossom then find fertile soil and equal partner.
In the case of present Croatia it does not exist. May happen in 100 years time.
That lovely Josipović was the one who was masterminding Croatian charge against us with ICJ. Let me remind you with the phrase: the ones who ignore and forget their past and their enemies, they will not have and they don't deserve future.
Or maybe better, what I suggest for sudden "Croatia supporters in Serbia": why don't you go there, for example holiday, and check yourself?

Been there, done that.
Not cheerful life experience.

(dean SRB, 25 March 2010 18:24) Yes dean the poor misunderstood victimized Serbs innocent as usual and upholding the Serb candle of righteousness on the earth for every one to see it. Lighting the way by their exemplary good examples. Just wondering why no one else is able to see it except the Serbs strange is it not. I guess its one of those confounding unexplained mysteries quandary of life. Or do you have to be a special chosen Serbs to see it. Thank you for pointing out what Croatians think from the Serb totally "unbiased" point of view that was really helpful. Yes the resent surveys only 8% of Croatians think that Croatia is heading the rite way namely to the EU nonsense. Will the brain dead politicians let us decide or will yours I doubt it.

"With this "bganon", sorry for breaking of your pacifistic utopia clouds."
(dean SRB, 25 March 2010 13:50)

Not my thread, but cannot hold it. bganon, you forgot to mention the Croatophobic part of the Serbian politics, but dean SRB felt offended and reminded you :). Mike you mentioned the ex-es of Croatia, but you too forgot to mention the ex-es of Serbia, Kostunica and others :). Apart from these small and non-important memory problems, it is good to see that the two countries are moving forward. It is also encouraging for all in the region to see that politicians there have the ability to "agree to disagree".

Geni,

You seem to be a bit confused.You posted in the wrong section.Otherwise reading the article as well as readers comments would help a lot in order to post in the right section and not writing nonsense cliches anyway.Before accusing me of generalization please indicate where I generalized exactly.Putting down that germans commited ethnic cleansing not only once in history is not generalization but fact.So if you do not know the meaning of a word do not use it.Think twice before posting a comment.Discussing something only out of emotions does not lead anywhere.No wonder that albanians are bad at sports.Controlling the emotions is a basic thing if you want to become a champion.And here I must praise the germans they are good at it.

Well I woke up dean and Croatia was still our neighbour. How was it in your fantasy world this morning where you were dreaming that our neighbour was somebody else? Reality dean, get used to it.

To follow one's self interest is hardly nonsense is it?

You have yet to provide any argument that to worsen relations with Croatia would help Serbia and Serbs.

Even ignoring everything that I say, you have nothing to show that your position would improve matters, or perhaps it would make things worse?

For that reason all your bellyaching about Croatia is completely pointless and helps nobody.

But hey if it makes you feel better you could always focus on opposing my 'utopia'! Who cares about real life, as long as you feel good.

Lenard,
What in God's name are you blathering about?? Are you actually trying to suggest to me that a country being self sufficient is a bad thing?? lol
Being self sufficient is what every country strives for. It means you don't have to depend on outsiders for any of your necessities. You want to know who is self sufficient? Russia, that's who. They have everything in abundance, oil, gas, iron ore, copper, silver, wheat, gold, uranium, good scientists, good engineers, educated population...and they export it all over the world and have huge surpluses. Their economy is very, very healthy right now, unlike the bankrupt West.
You want to know who is NOT self sufficient?? The US of A, and Germany. They have to import massive amounts of oil, gas, and raw materials which they do not have, to feed their economy and their people. Why do you think they stick their nose all over the world and try to steal those resources from their colonies for next to nothing? And trust me, Serbia is very self sufficient, all we need is good leadership to take advantage of this.

bganon,
There you go again, showing your true colours. And let me remind you that Vojvodina is part of Serbia despite what you and your buddy Nenad Canak think - and yes I know that Vojvodina can feed half of Europe, I was born there.
As for me eating Croat products? Come on now, do you think my relatives would actually offer me Croat products to eat when I visit?? They know better :).
There is no better food than Serbian food, have you not figured that out yet?
Cheers!!

Bganon

We should have cooperation with Croatia only on the equal basis as Dragan and Dean Srb pointed out .
Presidents should talk and I see it as good thing but as long as we have some interests too. However, knowing Tadic and his deeds I doubt anything useful for Serbs will come out from this talk.
Do you know what our minister of trade have said months ago, or maybe eve year or so ago?
Well, while talking nonsense as usual, on the question why Serbia do not export more food to Russia since Russians buy our food quite much, our “clever” minister stated “O, don’t be ridiculous! Serbia cannot produce what one Moscow’s market (green market) can eat in one week.
If I was this kind of minister of trade I would take the gun and kill myself.
Imagine an idiot saying something like this.
Instead of making master plans how to increase the production and make huge investments in food production since there is huge market where you can sell your goods, he is saying how ridiculous is to
even ask or consider this kind of question.

As for the lawsuits I strongly support the continuation of the process before the court.
Croats too have many explanations to give us and to their own people too.
We must solve the problem now and to clear up with Croats once for good for the sake of future generations.

Just five years after the end world war two, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands joined with their wartime enemy, Germany and agreed to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. Germany had invaded and persecuted all of it’s partners yet all worked hard to achieve peace for the future. Whilst the Balkan wars of the 90’s were devastating, the devastation of WW2 was unprecedented. Yet these countries choose to face the future and not the past. That peace has endured and all of these countries are way more prosperous than they ever were – or would be if they choose NOT to work together.

Is it really beyond the will and imagination of the Balkans to do the same? I think not. My partner (serb) and my friends and extended family (Serbia, Croatia, BiH, CG) are fed up with looking to the past. A choice is here, perhaps the best opportunity since the ending of the wars – Serbia must seize this opportunity to move out of the shadows of it’s history. It must not allow herself to be held back by those who have more to say about yesterday than tomorrow. Good luck to Tadić and Josipović. I wish them and both their countries continued peace and prosperity.

Peace and respect

GRUK

@ szemi
The times that Germany or the Germans (or any nation, group of people, etc.)is even more irrelevent when studying history. What matters is the discourse and the rhetoric that follow.
What you are doing with your comments is assuming that violence and xenophobia are inherent in the German culture. And that Mister is RACIST.
And as we are in the same topic, I know many Albanians who have a better sense of proportions, and I have met with many that don't.

If you have any knowledge from any discipline about how to discover that all the Germans are violent, Albanians have no sense of proportions, Turks have beards, Greeks like Baklava, etc., please do publish it, as it would be a breakthrough in the scientific community.

Biljana since when did I say that we should have cooperation with Croatia on an unequal basis?

My understanding of Dragan's point is that he is a Croataphobe - there is no reference to an equal basis.

Dean's point is sort of that we should halt cooperation with Croatia untill suddenly some miracle happens and they suddenly change their Serbophobic ways. Yeah right, that is really going to happen....

My argument is that we pursue self interest to mutual benefit. As for the minister of trade, I've never had anything good to say about that man. That statement is nothing compared to his lack of ability.

As for the court case - the court case is not an end in itself. It is a means. If we can get to the desired end through without the lawyers then why not drop the case.

Probably you don't have confidence in our legal team or political leadership to get enough, I don't know but I think they will give as good as they get in negotiations to drop the lawsuit.

Dragan As I said before don't confuse me with others you oppose. And don't confuse my argument about reality with my preference.

My preference is local food. Its just unlike you I understand that just because I like something, doesn't mean everybody else should do the same as me. We are not living under communism any more.

If you are born in Vojvodina, how about returning there and living on an average Serbian wage? And throw out your Gorenje, knock down your house if it is made of Croatian bricks or cement, throw out anything that has non Serbian products in it. Live by your word, instead of talking cheaply.

I am reminded of the vegitarian who, in his leather shoes, lectures everybody else about eating meat.

@ bganon

"'...For all your statements dean, true or not, I am interested in solutions, not creation of barriers..."

>>> And how is the morning in the lovely gardens of your lands of utopia?
Or boldly: and what happened when you woke up?

To answer and conclude very, very briefly to all of your utopian pacifistic nonsense: for any cooperation man need at least two sides involved to start with and with Croatia in that sense we don't have "equal therms" and genuine partner.
Our act with them must be short-tracked just on fulfilling our fundamental interests and nothing more then that.

Victims can be, so to speak, compensated only by admitting that we or the other party have committed them (sic) and to draw some remorse from it, Sure lets sweep it all under the rug and the victims Im sure they will appreciate it. Why is the rug a meter off the floor. Yes that looks good then we will take some group therapy together is that Dr. guru Karadzić available he will help us. Are you remorseful yap and you yap were cured opa opa. That didn't cost us a thing we sure learned our lesson which one is that o you know o yes rite. Lets all hold hands and skip down the yellow brick road and live happily ever after sounds good for a two year old.

"Slobodan Milošević the great Serb leader also put 100% duty on ex Yugo republics products we know how well that worked well for the Serb economy something to think over.
(Lenard, 26 March 2010 06:14)"

Yes, in fact he did that long before Yugoslavia had broken apart, beginning with the economic sanctions his regime imposed on Slovenia in October *1989*! And then people wonder why Yugoslavia split apart and blame the other republics who eventually had to escape from this new unrecognisable anti-federal, Serb-dominated state that Milosevic had created on the old Yugoslavia's grave - as if it wasn't precisely such actions that destroyed Yugoslavia long before its official end.

Serbia paid for sweeping WW2 events under the rug for the sake of reconcilliation only to have Krajina Serbs status reduced to minorities in a country who fought in WW2 to destroy the exsistence of the Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia.
Before that Serbia in WW1 sacrificed it's chance to have all Serbs live under the Serbian umbrella for the sake of releasing Croats from Austrian rule.
Each time that has bit Serbia on the perverbial and once again people float reconcilliation talk is the way forward.
Forward to what, more destruction, forward to endorsing the abhorent gains of my neighbour, forward to whitewashing the suffering of our kin, Serbia can go forward without that type of freind.

Germany unequivocally apologized for it's wrongs it reconcilled with France etc, to this day German leaders mark with somber hearts what they did in WW2, The top Croatian leadership write books denying the attrocities they commit and committed, blame their victims for killing each other, telling us they have nothing to apologize for as they won twice, and now I hear again lets be freinds. With freinds like that who needs enemies or their money.

Bganon with all due respect, you are blind to the cycle, even the Bosnians know today a Croat will sit at your table, eat your bread tommorow he will stab you in the back.

It's not living in pride when Serbs want to boycott buying Croatian but choosing not to live in a delusional state. My cupboard is stock with Czech made plum jam same price yet comes with dignity.

It would be the best thing those countries could do. But they probably won`t do it. Well, not i will pay the prize.

What is wrong with everyone here, we are the SAME people.

"...Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.
(bganon, 25 March 2010 10:46) ..."
=======================

I agree, but how many times do Serbs have to learn the hard way that this is NOT the way Croatians think?

What use is it when Serbs practice this forgive and forget mantra if Croatians don't?
Bgannon, are you really under the impression that Croats will adopt this attitude and what do you suggest happens when they don't? We keep on being sweet?

Typical behaviour from myopic and naive Serbs. Croats are guilty of two genocides, in WWII and in 1995 (Operation Storm), and as a result, there are virtualy no Serbs left in Croatia. Tadic's western advisors would love to see him drop this suit, because of the US/Germany's own involvement in sponsoring the genocideal Operation Storm. Josipovic's country, Croatia, celebrates Operation Storm as a national holiday. Let me repeat, they celebrate a genocide against Serbs as a national holiday. They recognize a fake, illegal and immoral state on Serbian soil.

I would not drop this suit, it is an insult to the Serbian victims. When are Serbs going to wake up finaly? After being duped by Tito into 'bratstvo i jedinstvo', after giving up their identities to become 'Yugoslavs' instead of Serbs (while all others kept their identities), after 'forgiving and forgetting Jasenovac' for the sake of 'bratstvo i jedinstvo'...where has all this goodwill got us?
I will tell you where. Every one of our neighbours has stabbed us in the back except for Bosnia, and that is only because of Republika Srpska. Serbs need to wake up, and look after themselves, and only after themselves, because this fantasy of all our neighbours loving us and singing kumbaya together, is just that, a fantasy. They have shown their treacherous ways, many times. I am under no illusions like many here. They are jealous of Serbs, and have a serious complex, and it will always be that way.
Cheers!!

(dean SRB, 25 March 2010 18:24) Yes dean the poor misunderstood victimized Serbs innocent as usual and upholding the Serb candle of righteousness on the earth for every one to see it. Lighting the way by their exemplary good examples. Just wondering why no one else is able to see it except the Serbs strange is it not. I guess its one of those confounding unexplained mysteries quandary of life. Or do you have to be a special chosen Serbs to see it. Thank you for pointing out what Croatians think from the Serb totally "unbiased" point of view that was really helpful. Yes the resent surveys only 8% of Croatians think that Croatia is heading the rite way namely to the EU nonsense. Will the brain dead politicians let us decide or will yours I doubt it.

"...Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.
(bganon, 25 March 2010 10:46) ..."

>>> In respond to your conclusion, from that "better relation" main beneficiary will be Croatia and not Serbia: it will speed up their EU admission and it will open for them additionally Serbian markets, what are theirs two main, and I could say only, goals of this "political" initiative.
On the other side our EU bid is just one distant, unsuccessful dream so in that context "EU requested regional cooperation" is then irrelevant in this case and second of all Croatian markets will stay closed to Serbia's economic impact, due to their anti-Serbian or Serbophobic protectionism, as it is known and as it is now.

So "improving" the relations with Croatia for Serbia means next to nothing unfortunately due to their predominant ill faith toward our country.
With this "bganon", sorry for breaking of your pacifistic utopia clouds.

Its good to see both Tadic and Josipovic behaving in this responsible manner on this issue.

Josipovic is a willing partner of Serbia but I would add that this doesn't mean that the Serbophobic nature of parts of Croatian politics have changed.

From a Serbian perspective there are still a number of serious issues to be dealt with including the rights of Serbs of Crotia (to return and conditions in Croatia) and sadly the kosovo issue further undermines relations.

Still, I hope others will join me in the general sense of positivity. Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.

Victims can be, so to speak, compensated only by admitting that we or the other party have committed them (sic) and to draw some remorse from it, Sure lets sweep it all under the rug and the victims Im sure they will appreciate it. Why is the rug a meter off the floor. Yes that looks good then we will take some group therapy together is that Dr. guru Karadzić available he will help us. Are you remorseful yap and you yap were cured opa opa. That didn't cost us a thing we sure learned our lesson which one is that o you know o yes rite. Lets all hold hands and skip down the yellow brick road and live happily ever after sounds good for a two year old.

@ szemi
The times that Germany or the Germans (or any nation, group of people, etc.)is even more irrelevent when studying history. What matters is the discourse and the rhetoric that follow.
What you are doing with your comments is assuming that violence and xenophobia are inherent in the German culture. And that Mister is RACIST.
And as we are in the same topic, I know many Albanians who have a better sense of proportions, and I have met with many that don't.

If you have any knowledge from any discipline about how to discover that all the Germans are violent, Albanians have no sense of proportions, Turks have beards, Greeks like Baklava, etc., please do publish it, as it would be a breakthrough in the scientific community.

dean it can't be helped that some think that having worse relations with Croatia will help Serbia or Serbs.

But if you explain to me how (an uncooperative activity) this helps Serbs, I would be glad to listen. Also maybe you can help explain how a negative attitude will help their 'ill faith' towards our country.

If you are talking about hurting Croats, as your priority. I am not interested. What interests me is not some unhealthy complex to see my neighbours garden get trashed.

I want my garden to be improved, and if it improves his at the same time, no problem. Self interest can also have an alturistic nature. Negativity hurts yourself and your neighbour.

Wow, bganon, you are full of ingenious ideas. Let's buy food from Croatia, even though Serbia has enough food to feed half of Europe!! lol

How's this for an idea, bganon...instead of buying food from people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they hate you, and putting money into their pockets, how about buying Serbian products that are produced in Serbia, which in turn will create jobs in Serbia instead of Croatia?? It's not rocket science. The more self sufficient Serbia is, the better. That is what Dean was talking about by eliminating the trade deficit.
Go ahead though, keep buying your Kras wafers, you are only hurting yourself. I will stick with Soko Stark products.
Cheers!!

@ bganon

"'...For all your statements dean, true or not, I am interested in solutions, not creation of barriers..."

>>> And how is the morning in the lovely gardens of your lands of utopia?
Or boldly: and what happened when you woke up?

To answer and conclude very, very briefly to all of your utopian pacifistic nonsense: for any cooperation man need at least two sides involved to start with and with Croatia in that sense we don't have "equal therms" and genuine partner.
Our act with them must be short-tracked just on fulfilling our fundamental interests and nothing more then that.

For all your statements dean, true or not, I am interested in solutions, not creation of barriers.

It took you a long time to come up with something concrete with how uncooperative attitude can help, as you were so focussed on the negative - but you came up with only one thing for me to dissect. To reduce our trade deficit, are you suggesting a boycott of Croatian goods? Do you think this will achieve anything? Anything apart from bankupting Serbian business that would be boycotted in retaliation. Secondly, 'reducing our trade deficit' means in reality 'reducing the amount of imported goods in our shops' - fewer goods mean higher prices, elementary economics. In the case of Croatia we are not talking about electrical goods bought by the rich. We are talking about ordinary goods bought by people, like food. So yeah, why not, push the prices up! That really helps poor people in Serbia! Well done Dean, you have persuaded me that it will help us not to cooperate with Croatia!

The anaology of a garden was not something I dreamed up. You can't just magic a partner, just as in real life you have neighbours, Croatia IS our next door neighbour. It doesn't matter how good a partner we have in another town - the fact is the most benefit can be gained for both of us if we deal with our direct neighbour.

Now if trade deficit is the only 'positive' argument you have I suggest that all you are really doing is the easy thing - arguing against something else (that most of us agree with) - without suggesting an alternative. Plain irresponsible thinking, of which there is plenty of in the Balkans and beyond. I reject such an approach.

I have been to Croatia, in fact I even went to Croatia during the wars, so if anybody knows Croatian intolerance, it is me. But if you expect me to be emtional about it, think again. I am focussed on helping Serbia, not hurting Croatia.

Part of being an adult is understanding that things change in life. There are plenty of people who are afraid of change - they want eternal enemies (the US and its evil empire, now they have swapped it for Bin Laden). You have the same fools who hide behind anything in the US to accuse Obama when really they don't like a black man in the White House. Big deal. If we were in the US no doubt you would be telling me that because white and black were enemies in the past, that Obama must also be my enemy today?

All of it is just rubbish.

@bganon

"...it can't be helped that some think that having worse relations with Croatia will help Serbia or Serbs..."

>>> In respond and sorry for reminder, more then 90% of that nation supported vocally Nato bombing of Serbia, another survey showed tragically that 80% of Croats refuse to have a Serbian family for their next-door neighbour and recent survey showed that 72% of Croats do refuse to join EU if, as per proposal of EU institutions and with the mind of costs savings, all the relevant future EU documents are translated and used as official common serbo-croatian language, as suggested.
All this sounds nation-pathological to me.
So as per above exercise: vast majority of Croats do not want any relation with Serbia or at least nothing that we Serbians can accept as civilized mannered.


"...But if you explain to me how (an uncooperative activity) this helps Serbs, I would be glad to listen..."

>>> Your mentioned "uncooperative activity" surely does exist, but only from Croatian side. They certanly are not ready for the "equal set of minds" relation and that's for example proved with their trade protectionism.
How will Serbia's non-cooperation help there? Well, lets think in this case together: it will decrease our trade deficit for example.
Futher "non-cooperation or cooperation" from our side must be there just to serve our or equal interests and that's what Croatia is not interested in as it is proved in the parctice.


"...I want my garden to be improved, and if it improves his at the same time, no problem. Self interest can also have an alturistic nature. Negativity hurts yourself and your neighbour..."


>>>If you want your garden to improve and blossom then find fertile soil and equal partner.
In the case of present Croatia it does not exist. May happen in 100 years time.
That lovely Josipović was the one who was masterminding Croatian charge against us with ICJ. Let me remind you with the phrase: the ones who ignore and forget their past and their enemies, they will not have and they don't deserve future.
Or maybe better, what I suggest for sudden "Croatia supporters in Serbia": why don't you go there, for example holiday, and check yourself?

Been there, done that.
Not cheerful life experience.

"With this "bganon", sorry for breaking of your pacifistic utopia clouds."
(dean SRB, 25 March 2010 13:50)

Not my thread, but cannot hold it. bganon, you forgot to mention the Croatophobic part of the Serbian politics, but dean SRB felt offended and reminded you :). Mike you mentioned the ex-es of Croatia, but you too forgot to mention the ex-es of Serbia, Kostunica and others :). Apart from these small and non-important memory problems, it is good to see that the two countries are moving forward. It is also encouraging for all in the region to see that politicians there have the ability to "agree to disagree".

And as usual Dragan you overwhelm me with rationality...

You argue the toss with me with the argument that Serbia has enough food etc (that one usually starts with Vojvodina btw). My answer is reality. The reality is that Croatian food products are bought in Serbia. Your opinion that this should not happen does not undermine this fact - nor am I endorsing Croatian food products. Its ok to be on the fantasy side of the debate against reality but you have the bad manners to lecture Serbs on what they should and should not buy and as usual miss the argument completely.

But let me help you. One of the most important factors is price. If what you are saying is true about an unlimited supply this means the price of Serbian goods should be much lower than Croatian ones. If that were true do you think people would buy Croatian goods or cheaper home made ones?

So you repeatedly call for anti monopolist measures against rich Serbian businessmen who fix their high prices? You call for reduced profit margins for the Miskovic's of this world?

But you don't do you? Rather its more my position.

The problem is your personal mind set. You are so used to having enough money to choose which goods you want, you think that Serbs can do the same. And you begrudge those few luxury products that Serbs might occasionally enjoy such as Bajadera.

I mean what do you do when you are in Serbia and are offered such foods by your family. You refuse on 'principle'?

Frankly I find that position both anal and insulting.

Lenard,
What in God's name are you blathering about?? Are you actually trying to suggest to me that a country being self sufficient is a bad thing?? lol
Being self sufficient is what every country strives for. It means you don't have to depend on outsiders for any of your necessities. You want to know who is self sufficient? Russia, that's who. They have everything in abundance, oil, gas, iron ore, copper, silver, wheat, gold, uranium, good scientists, good engineers, educated population...and they export it all over the world and have huge surpluses. Their economy is very, very healthy right now, unlike the bankrupt West.
You want to know who is NOT self sufficient?? The US of A, and Germany. They have to import massive amounts of oil, gas, and raw materials which they do not have, to feed their economy and their people. Why do you think they stick their nose all over the world and try to steal those resources from their colonies for next to nothing? And trust me, Serbia is very self sufficient, all we need is good leadership to take advantage of this.

bganon,
There you go again, showing your true colours. And let me remind you that Vojvodina is part of Serbia despite what you and your buddy Nenad Canak think - and yes I know that Vojvodina can feed half of Europe, I was born there.
As for me eating Croat products? Come on now, do you think my relatives would actually offer me Croat products to eat when I visit?? They know better :).
There is no better food than Serbian food, have you not figured that out yet?
Cheers!!

Dragan Dragan The more self sufficient Serbia is, the better. Interesting Dragan, Enver Halil Hoxha, 16 October 1908 – 11 April 1985) was the Communist leader of Albania. He had the same ideas and he implemented them ruthlessly. We all know how successful that was. Mao Tse-tung same idea it was terrible suffering for the people. Slobodan Milošević the great Serb leader also put 100% duty on ex Yugo republics products we know how well that worked well for the Serb economy something to think over.

"Its good to see both Tadic and Josipovic behaving in this responsible manner on this issue." (bganon)

-- Not only that, it's a breath of fresh air to blow away the poison that existed between the two countries for the last 15 years. Can anyone even think such dialogue could have taken place with someone like Mesic or Sanader?

Reconciliation begins with small steps in agreeing to disagree and finding a common road between the two.

Well I woke up dean and Croatia was still our neighbour. How was it in your fantasy world this morning where you were dreaming that our neighbour was somebody else? Reality dean, get used to it.

To follow one's self interest is hardly nonsense is it?

You have yet to provide any argument that to worsen relations with Croatia would help Serbia and Serbs.

Even ignoring everything that I say, you have nothing to show that your position would improve matters, or perhaps it would make things worse?

For that reason all your bellyaching about Croatia is completely pointless and helps nobody.

But hey if it makes you feel better you could always focus on opposing my 'utopia'! Who cares about real life, as long as you feel good.

"Slobodan Milošević the great Serb leader also put 100% duty on ex Yugo republics products we know how well that worked well for the Serb economy something to think over.
(Lenard, 26 March 2010 06:14)"

Yes, in fact he did that long before Yugoslavia had broken apart, beginning with the economic sanctions his regime imposed on Slovenia in October *1989*! And then people wonder why Yugoslavia split apart and blame the other republics who eventually had to escape from this new unrecognisable anti-federal, Serb-dominated state that Milosevic had created on the old Yugoslavia's grave - as if it wasn't precisely such actions that destroyed Yugoslavia long before its official end.

Geni,

You seem to be a bit confused.You posted in the wrong section.Otherwise reading the article as well as readers comments would help a lot in order to post in the right section and not writing nonsense cliches anyway.Before accusing me of generalization please indicate where I generalized exactly.Putting down that germans commited ethnic cleansing not only once in history is not generalization but fact.So if you do not know the meaning of a word do not use it.Think twice before posting a comment.Discussing something only out of emotions does not lead anywhere.No wonder that albanians are bad at sports.Controlling the emotions is a basic thing if you want to become a champion.And here I must praise the germans they are good at it.

Bganon

We should have cooperation with Croatia only on the equal basis as Dragan and Dean Srb pointed out .
Presidents should talk and I see it as good thing but as long as we have some interests too. However, knowing Tadic and his deeds I doubt anything useful for Serbs will come out from this talk.
Do you know what our minister of trade have said months ago, or maybe eve year or so ago?
Well, while talking nonsense as usual, on the question why Serbia do not export more food to Russia since Russians buy our food quite much, our “clever” minister stated “O, don’t be ridiculous! Serbia cannot produce what one Moscow’s market (green market) can eat in one week.
If I was this kind of minister of trade I would take the gun and kill myself.
Imagine an idiot saying something like this.
Instead of making master plans how to increase the production and make huge investments in food production since there is huge market where you can sell your goods, he is saying how ridiculous is to
even ask or consider this kind of question.

As for the lawsuits I strongly support the continuation of the process before the court.
Croats too have many explanations to give us and to their own people too.
We must solve the problem now and to clear up with Croats once for good for the sake of future generations.

Biljana since when did I say that we should have cooperation with Croatia on an unequal basis?

My understanding of Dragan's point is that he is a Croataphobe - there is no reference to an equal basis.

Dean's point is sort of that we should halt cooperation with Croatia untill suddenly some miracle happens and they suddenly change their Serbophobic ways. Yeah right, that is really going to happen....

My argument is that we pursue self interest to mutual benefit. As for the minister of trade, I've never had anything good to say about that man. That statement is nothing compared to his lack of ability.

As for the court case - the court case is not an end in itself. It is a means. If we can get to the desired end through without the lawyers then why not drop the case.

Probably you don't have confidence in our legal team or political leadership to get enough, I don't know but I think they will give as good as they get in negotiations to drop the lawsuit.

Dragan As I said before don't confuse me with others you oppose. And don't confuse my argument about reality with my preference.

My preference is local food. Its just unlike you I understand that just because I like something, doesn't mean everybody else should do the same as me. We are not living under communism any more.

If you are born in Vojvodina, how about returning there and living on an average Serbian wage? And throw out your Gorenje, knock down your house if it is made of Croatian bricks or cement, throw out anything that has non Serbian products in it. Live by your word, instead of talking cheaply.

I am reminded of the vegitarian who, in his leather shoes, lectures everybody else about eating meat.

Just five years after the end world war two, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands joined with their wartime enemy, Germany and agreed to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. Germany had invaded and persecuted all of it’s partners yet all worked hard to achieve peace for the future. Whilst the Balkan wars of the 90’s were devastating, the devastation of WW2 was unprecedented. Yet these countries choose to face the future and not the past. That peace has endured and all of these countries are way more prosperous than they ever were – or would be if they choose NOT to work together.

Is it really beyond the will and imagination of the Balkans to do the same? I think not. My partner (serb) and my friends and extended family (Serbia, Croatia, BiH, CG) are fed up with looking to the past. A choice is here, perhaps the best opportunity since the ending of the wars – Serbia must seize this opportunity to move out of the shadows of it’s history. It must not allow herself to be held back by those who have more to say about yesterday than tomorrow. Good luck to Tadić and Josipović. I wish them and both their countries continued peace and prosperity.

Peace and respect

GRUK

It would be the best thing those countries could do. But they probably won`t do it. Well, not i will pay the prize.

What is wrong with everyone here, we are the SAME people.

Serbia paid for sweeping WW2 events under the rug for the sake of reconcilliation only to have Krajina Serbs status reduced to minorities in a country who fought in WW2 to destroy the exsistence of the Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia.
Before that Serbia in WW1 sacrificed it's chance to have all Serbs live under the Serbian umbrella for the sake of releasing Croats from Austrian rule.
Each time that has bit Serbia on the perverbial and once again people float reconcilliation talk is the way forward.
Forward to what, more destruction, forward to endorsing the abhorent gains of my neighbour, forward to whitewashing the suffering of our kin, Serbia can go forward without that type of freind.

Germany unequivocally apologized for it's wrongs it reconcilled with France etc, to this day German leaders mark with somber hearts what they did in WW2, The top Croatian leadership write books denying the attrocities they commit and committed, blame their victims for killing each other, telling us they have nothing to apologize for as they won twice, and now I hear again lets be freinds. With freinds like that who needs enemies or their money.

Bganon with all due respect, you are blind to the cycle, even the Bosnians know today a Croat will sit at your table, eat your bread tommorow he will stab you in the back.

It's not living in pride when Serbs want to boycott buying Croatian but choosing not to live in a delusional state. My cupboard is stock with Czech made plum jam same price yet comes with dignity.

"...Better relations can only benefit Serbia,Croatia and the region, worse relations can only hurt the two countries and their peoples.
(bganon, 25 March 2010 10:46) ..."
=======================

I agree, but how many times do Serbs have to learn the hard way that this is NOT the way Croatians think?

What use is it when Serbs practice this forgive and forget mantra if Croatians don't?
Bgannon, are you really under the impression that Croats will adopt this attitude and what do you suggest happens when they don't? We keep on being sweet?