A person can twist whatever it is they want in order to fulfill whatever purpose. But that doesn't (and never will...)excuse what NATO did. Kosovo was not a war, it was an anti-terrorist operation. Terrorists, sponsored by local Albanians and Albanians living abroad. And exaggerated by Western spin-kings.
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
(kate, 25 March 2010 18:34)
International law does not function in the same away as a country's laws function. The difference again being that UN resolutions get enforced as the 5 veto holding UNSC members wish. Its all up to them to pick and choose what to enforce. Its all voluntary and individual. None of the other members holding veto power can make the other enforce a resolution. Even the UN has no right to order any military alliance to attack a member state or even non-members for that matter. They can do it if the 5 veto holding members agree with each other, and decide to bomb someplace but that does not necessarily makes it right or legal. Its all about who holds power and might. Its how it always been, and its how it will always be. There are no safeguards. If the big and mighty choose to do something it will get done. Nothing will stop it. NO UNSC, and not any other body. Iraq, Abkhazia etc etc. are examples. It'd be nice living in that utopic word of yours where the little guy had as much decision-making power as the big and mighty but that has never been the case and it will never be the case. Until then all the little guy can do is to make sure he is on the right side of the fence and stop making televised threats to those who head the big and mighty.
pz - I am truly sorry that you have experienced war first hand. And to everyone who has suffered through war.
Of course you are right that 'reported missing' and 'killed' are different things, in normal circumstances. But when a massive attack can be launched on the basis of 'what is going to happen' then the line is very thin indeed.
The numbers were used as spin to justify the attack, so it worked.
Certain things you've said don't make much sense and for your kind information it's been more than 10 years since I've held anti-Milosevic beliefs and finally I owe no one an apology for my personal beliefs including those who've poorly rated my comments.Okay?
Nato war against us was illegal and criminal. 1. illegal in international law. Illegal in Nato statute. Read Nato statute please 2. criminal killing civilians and bombing civilian infrastructure 3. criminal making into real war simple anti terror operations in Kosovo 4. criminal making 30 bil dollars damage 5. criminal because of fabricated cause and real goal to rob sovereign country of sovereign territory 6. impotent because they said it would take 78 hours and it took 78 days to end and only because Russians got involved 7. failure because of 1244.
Nato must 1. apologise to Serbia and families of victims 2. prosecute war criminals at least in command responsibility 3. pay reparations to state and families of victims 4. send rasmusen or whoever was put there to kneel in front of milica rakic's grave
Then we will leave past and build our pretty future together in one big happy family. Before that we will never forget and never forgive. Anyone who thinks this is just slogans doesnt know first thing about us Serbs.
Rest in peace our victims torn to pieces and burned alive. We will not forget.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
(kate, 25 March 2010 10:09)
kate, as far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong), your mother tongue is English, and if you tell me that ‘may’ and ‘have been’ is the same then I can not help you with that.
I’ve started all this to deny some of the claims that western media and western leaders made up these figures for propaganda to justify the attack.
I’ve experienced the war myself; I’ve seen many terrible things happening, including separation of men of military age from their families at the border crossing, and no one knew what happened to them, until they were subsequently released and rejoined with their families (not all of them, though). So, from the moment of their separation, they were considered as missing, and having seen what had happened in Bosnia in similar cases and then in Kosovo, their families thought that they ‘might have been murdered’. Cohen, reported based on the stories and reports from the field, and then CNN only conveyed what Cohen actually said. It was not that Cohen and or CNN invented these stories and figures.
Now, I don’t know what kind of reports you consider official, but I think it would be good for you to check the following links and hopefully you’ll understand that it is not all the same- it is not just mass propaganda based on nothing,:
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
Johnny - It is illegal for Nato to take military action without a Security Council resolution. I call that a link.
(kate, 24 March 2010 21:43)
Kate calling something a link and calling something a military branch of the UN are completely different. The UN cannot order NATO to take part in any operations. Also the question of legality as it can be seen takes second sit if NATO members believe they are threatened. If there is a threat against NATO members they do not need a green light from the UN. That's the whole reason why NATO and the Warsaw Pact were created. If either Russia or the US attacked each other the UN could in no way give permission to these military alliances to attack; but they still had the power to do it. Again the UN is not the World's government. Enforcement of anything coming from the UN is completely voluntary; meaning if the 5 UNSC members feel like enforcing resolutions they will be enforced, if not they won't. That is why Darfur and Eritrea happened. There were resolutions but they weren't enforced. Now if we're talking about legality in any member states not enforcing laws that lead to murder is illegal but that is not true when it comes to the UN. What happens around the world is solely dependent on those 5 members and how strong the influence is in certain parts of the world. There is no equal before the law when it comes to the UN. The Chinese have a strong influence in Sudan hence Darfur was allowed to happen. There's hundreds of examples. The UN does not govern the world.
"Anti-Milosevic" - what are you going on about in such an unpunctuated way? If English is your first language than most of the people on here put you to shame (and probably also speak 3rd languages as well).
Most people weren't even pro-Milosevic when he was alive let alone 10 years later.
And millions of people of all nationalities (including moi - that's French for me, by the way) were against the attack on Serbia and didn't support Milosevic. Although I think it was pathetic how he was demonised to such an extent.
Going on about being "Anti-Milosevic" is just ridiculous. You're 10 years too late!
It would be fun to hear your other views on Europeans, freedom fries, the EU etc. though. Let me guess...
Thank goodness there are some articulate bright Americans on here to keep the light of hope shining.
"You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly." (Anti-Milosevic)
-- Well I guess the issue I have is finding how you equate my distaste for the 1999 war with somehow approving of Milosevic, which I most assuredly do not and did not. One can certainly be against a state-sponsored course of action against another state and still find rhe regime of said state distasteful. Many people opposed the war in Iraq, but I daresay they thought Saddam was a swell guy. But as for associating with people "who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with", that's just human nature regardless of nation or nationality. We tend to gravite towards those who share similar opinions with our own and distance ourselves from those who don't.
Rest assured, if you've read my comments here over the years, I'm no fan of Slobo and Im certainly not one of those people who have an affinity for demagogues simply because they're anti-American.
You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly.Finally if people like me don't want to pity Milosevic nor pity his sympathizers or supporters(irrespective of their nationality) than that should be my and/or our right.
"As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans."
-- Huh? Oh, you're not one of those "if you're not with us, you're against us" Americans, are you?
DimTuc: "Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate."
Now you are spinning or 'doing a Cohen' as we can call it.
That figure you state (and as you say yourself, the official figure is actually under 5,000) includes combatants from both sides and civilians of all ethnicities.
Not one of these lives lost are a light matter, but stop claiming that the figures only include Albanian civilians; it's not correct in any official report.
What I want to know is why the 'Western' media has ignored this story about the lies told to attack a European nation and terrorise its people? I wait for the truth to come out.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
Thanks pz exactly. Cohen said 4600 had been killed, not 100,000. That is clear to anyone who knows how to read. It is annoying to see this totally dishonest claim bandied about year after year. Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate.
R.I.P to all who died during this bombing. 30 billion in damage. 200,000 refugees. and 2,000 killed. As a Western European it is disgusting that my country took part in this.
When the disintegration of Yugo began about 200 000 Albanians alone left that country and went to Germany where the German Foreign Affairs Minister stated on TV “that Yugoslav papers are no longer valid and should be thrown away – little did they think that all these people would do just that and remain in Germany to this day.
Cohen’s statement is rubbish. If that was the case how were the Albanians able to return to their homes so quickly after NATO took over in Kosovo? Utter propaganda rubbish!
The former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert in a fit of rage over being criticized by the EU on invading Lebanon in 2006 stated “where do the European countries get to criticize Israel when they killed 10 000 people in Kosovo and no one even fired a bullet at them”. This tells it all!
An interesting item about William Cohen; Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in NY after the Kosovo, but when Cohen got a report on Serb equipment damaged by bombing he was fuming. Clarke told him that Serbs had lost more than 60% capacity. The report stated that Serbs left with all their equipment in tact with only 10 or 12 four military pieces destroyed and they were not sure if they just did not break down. Cohen went through the roof; he dismissed Clarke quietly as head of NATO three months before his term expired.
Russia was not in that bad situation to explain everything. There was no threat of a civil war and there were many ways of filling the empty shelves. Those were propagandist ducks still exploited by the West’s agents of influence. They still repeat those mantras to explain the destruction of the most powerful state. Hungarians sold 30% of their state property for USD 27 Bln while we sold 70 000 objects for damned USD 9 Bln. So privatization followed not economical but only political goals. In fact I see little difference between Leh Valensa , Boris Yeltsyn , Hashim Thaci , Mike Saakashvili , Milo Djukanovic , Ginjic , Yushenko and other Washington guys.
They stopped for a while demonizing Serbs and Russians to concentrate on Iran and Afghanistan. So they close their eyes on the fact that the two Asian peoples has never attacked anyone for centuries. They describe the Afghan partisans as if they were a part of the virtual Al Qaeda. But even their own president F.D. Roosevelt once said that “you cannot deceive many people very long”. And some day they will have to explain their defeat in Asia. They will also have to explain why after the occupation the output of heroin in Afghanistan has increased 32 times and why should the biggest narco baron be the President of this state.
For you Aleks since you at least indicated your contempt for NATO criminals I feel contempt for Milosevic and his sympathizers or supporters. As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans. Finally I want to add by saying that I don't have a problem with Serb nationals residing in America and or visiting the country but I have a problem if some Serb(s) expects to be above American society.
Thank you Kate for the link! Please read this part and tell me where it says that 100, 000 Kosovo Albanians were killed??
“U.S. defense secretary: Up to 100,000 Kosovar men missing
In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
While reports indicate that 4,600 Kosovar men have been executed, he said, "I expect it's far higher than that."
Cohen said a total of 1.5 million ethnic Albanians -- out of Kosovo's pre-conflict population of 1.8 million -- have either fled the region or been displaced internally.
Yugoslavia has denied allegations that its military has committed mass executions, calling the charges NATO manipulation of Western media. Yugoslav authorities also blame the NATO bombings for the diaspora of ethnic Albanians.”
Rote, 24 March 2010 19:34)
True, if Serbia did have the S300 systems there would be no NATO today, but Russia could not help Serbia at that time. There is nothing to forgive because Russia was on its knees – Clinton refused Yeltsin IMF loans if he did not play ball.
Russia was on the edge of civil war because of the various forces at play and if loans were not forthcoming there was a real chance of starvation through total economic collapse.
There is one man that has not forgotten this factor and his name is Vladimir Putin; why do you think the west despises him? “Evil overlord; exKGB officer, blah, blah and yet they don’t mention George Bush senior being the Director of the CIA or other senior officials having very strong connections to the intelligence communities.
I look with joy at the daily reports from Afghanistan and Iraq and watch with great happiness at the slow demise of both the US and its offspring NATO. What’s even more interesting is that the US has had to crawl to Russia to help it in Afghanistan otherwise NATO forces would be at the mercy of the Taliban.
This business of Serbia opening offices in NATO that is only Tadic and company sending their own people as part of crawling to the US otherwise no payments to them. All surveys have shown that 95% of Serbian citizens do not support such a move.
....."never forgive never forget"
(KOSTAS, 24 March 2010 19:43)
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
(pz, 24 March 2010 18:27)
RIP to all the victims of the NATO war crimes, to the make-up women and the janitors, in the RTS building, to the civilians who were sitting in their homes while bombs fell on them, to the train passengers who were incinerated, to the Chinese embassy 'aggressors' who were murdured....
We know who is responsible for these crimes. It is Wesley Clark, Madeline Albright, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Rudolf Scharping, William Cohen, Sandy Berger, Joe Biden....
May these names live in infamy for the war crimes they have commited (for which there is OVERWHELMING evidence) and may their souls never rest.
We will never forget.
pz: Just one CNN report that 100,000 Kosovo Albanians had been killed: http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/17/kosovo.01/index.html
I have to add that I am not belittling a single death of any innocent person killed of any ethnicity. But numbers were used to spin and to kill even more people.
On behalf of all free thinking Americans, may I offer to Serbia and the Serbian people my sincere apologies for:
1. Illegally bombing your country and targeting its infrastructure and civilian locations
2. Knowingly and deliberately distorting information on CNN and other mainsteam media outlets to make your country and its people out to be a bunch of Eastern European savages
3. Preemptively planning the funding and support of paramilitary and paralegal organizations with the intention of violating a state's sovereignty for the sake of geostrategic gain.
All of this was done under the false pretenses of humanitarianism and state-building. Not all of us are intoxicated with faux-patriotism and an overexaggerated sense of American superiority. I was against the Bomardment then. I am against the Bombardment now.
Kate said:"NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference."
--Kate you are misinformed about NATO's role. I suggest you read a little more about NATO. NATO is in no way UN's military arm, just as the UN is in no way the World's government. Inform yourself a little more next time. Learn how and why NATO was formed and learn the goals and objectives of NATO. NATO is a military alliance of a group of sovereign states. It's creation and mandate comes from this group of states, not from the UN and not from the secretary general.
It is all good now.Serbia is opening its own office in NATO headqurters in Brusels.Nothing happened.Serbia never killed albanians,Nato never bombed Serbia.
This is the first and hopefully the last time when I say something good of Eltsyn. In fact he did not mean the bombings ! He believed he could do something for his overseas sponsors but he never knew how cheap they did valued him. In fact we betrayed Serbia three times. First when we refused them S-300 systems . Then when we saved NATO of the fatal land operation and finally when we yielded to the pressure over the airport. And those were only sections in the long chain of our treasons when we betrayed all our friends worldwide.
But before that we betrayed ourselves when we let the enemies in. They were buying and making bankrupt our most effective military complex plants. We opened them the system of installing the espionage techniques. We opened other secrets they never dreamed of. Eltsyn declared FM Kozirev dismissed but after Clinton called him and said that “Andrey is a good guy” Boris let him work for another two years ! So by bombing Serbia they spited at Russia as well. And Yeltsyn was the last to know about the march at Pristina airport. So dear Alex I have to disagree with you cause what you say is just a small part of our guilt.
I don't often watch CNN and so cannot particularly comment on the finer points of its reporting. I would never dispute that there is fog and misinformation that comes from all sides.
I did follow the nasty war in Bosnia that got up the backs of the UN and every country in the 'West'. Too many innocents had died. The west had already had to intervene to stop the killing in Bosnia, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo. The NATO intervention did stop it repeating. I have no doubt that the same thugs who did the dirty deeds in Bosnia would have continued to do the same in Kosovo if there had not been International intervention. The west's inaction that initially made Bosnia possible, turned into action - which quite likely was the reason why there were not 100000 killed in Kosovo.
The very genuine concern in the West of a repeat of Bosnia was what sparked the bombings. The west had an obligation to act.
For years Milosevic tried to take the west for being fools, but eventually the game stopped. By the time they trapped him in the corner at Rambouilett they were already fed up with his games - he had already gone too far and it was too late. Basically, he had lied to them too often and they were not going to let him get away with it again. Milosevic played with people's lives. People said he was 'clever' whereas all he was really is someone who would bend which ever way in order keep in power.
He played it badly and history caught up with him. It could not last forever.
Fortunately it was Serbs who eventually banged the pots, blew the whistles, marched in the streets and refused to accept his electoral cheating. It was brilliant!
I support Serbia's ownership of Kosovo, I understand the will of Bosnian Serbs not to be bought back under any form of Islamic rule.
However, I do not accept the behaviour of thugs as being acceptable, and I much regret the damage that their behaviour has bought to Serbia's reputation in the world.
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
Serbia should remain proud for resisting the worlds' most powerful military block for so long, only giving when when Yelstin stabbed Serbia in the back, having been told by the US that NATO "would level Belgrade" otherwise.
For all those politicians who supported NATO war crimes, I hope you get what you deserve in extremis, especially as we can never expect a war crimes trial of these people.
The only good news is that the slow implosion of NATO is continuing as US and European strategic interests continue to diverge. It is only a matter of time before this bastard organization dies, as it should have done after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Still, Serbia has only gotten stronger in the last few years and will continue to do so, much to the chagrin of its enemies and its two faced 'friends'.
Just few days before NATO’s “Merciful Angel” begun I left Prisitina and came home (Eastern Serbia) to visit parents and friends. I knew that NATO was going to start its “democratic and merciful” action but I just did not know when is going to begin. After the day I left I have never seen Pristina again. Or I did but under totally different circumstances and the visit was very short, just couple of hours.
During the bombardment I was not afraid, at least I was not aware of any fear at the time.
My family decided not to go to any shell during air strikes but to stay home and what ever happens happens.
We kind of decided to die together if some bomb hit our building .
Luckily, not a one bomb hit the building , however we did feel strong shaking.
We were trying to live as normally as possible, as nothing unusual happens. And so we did until the last day of NATO's bestial rampage.
Many years later in one foreign country I went out for a walk and while there , for some reason
I decided to stay out and watch Christmas firework. I don’t know why did I stay since I really don’t like all the madness around Christmas, but I stayed. When the firework begun I felt dizziness, disgust and felt like vomiting. The sound I heard reminded me so much of bombing. All I wanted at that moment was to leave the place as soon as possible. I felt tears wetting my face. I could not stop tears, I lost control over my eyes.
I realized then that some fear did exist and that sort of trauma never left
But I did not cry due to being aware of possible traumatic syndrome, I cried then because of Milica Rakic and because of all the innocent people who lost their lives while “righteous EU and USA” was dropping even more righteous, merciful and democratic bombs making a hell of my country.I cried becuse of my country.
Those children and people died of "merciful democracy".
I felt such bitter taste in my mouth after realizing that democracy doesn’t taste the way I was imagining.
Nevertheless, the most important thing I realized was how much I love my country and my people. I love every stone of Serbia.
I can say thank you “merciful NATO” for opening my eyes wide.
Democratic world exposed itself for what it is, showed me its true colours.
From the day first that “democratic world” begun air strikes against Serbia I despised every kind of possibility and move towrads the Euro-Atlantic integration.
May the victims rest in peace. My heart will always be with you.
These are reponsible for destruction of a country and brutal murder of innocent people all based on LIES AND PROPAGANDA! The amount of lies being blasted on their controlled media was unbelievable. Like when nato officials came on TV and said something like 'we have just received information that Serbs forces have executed rugova.'
It took 19 countries and 78 days of bombing for west to end the mess they orchestrated for 7 years..At the end they still have a albanian hole they`ll never be able to do nothing with..
We`ll never forget..
I think every country should be responsible for the leaders they elect or allow them to lead. It is unfortunate that some people still would love to twist the historical facts.
This report does not explain why all of the countries in NATO in unity decided to act. It does not explain the years of lies form the Milosevic government or the disgust that the abuses and murders in Bosnia were about to be repeated in Kosovo. For the West inaction was no longer an option.
It is terrible for any country to endure the bombing of its civilian population, regardless of ethnicity.
I can only imagine the horror and fear people must have felt to be attacked around the clock by the world's most sophisticated military alliance for 78 days.
There is no reason to bomb any nation and subject its citizens to such dangers and terrible personal loss.
I am completely against my nation's involvement in any war except where my own country is being directly attacked, or where there has been a democratic vote at the UN (or League of Nations as was) to use force.
In both these cases, human rights should be paramount; no more civilians being targeted or called 'collateral damage', or being deprived and terrorised through attacks on power grids, water sources, homes etc.
NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference.
RIP all those poor people and their loved ones left behind to mourn them.
The bombing commenced after failed peace negotiations in Rambouillet, France.
--
There were no peace negotiations in Rambouillet but rather an ultimatum. The two clauses in the so-called agreement that made it impossible for Serbia to sign were the insistance of NATO occupying all of Yugoslavia and that a referendum be held in Kosovo after three years.
==
The attacks ended on June 9 with the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement and the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
--
The reason it ended was due to Russia convincing NATO to drop the two clauses for full occupation and a referendum. UNSCR1244 was adopted and confirms Serbia's territorial integrity. NATO lost that war and is now trying to obtain independence by breaking international law. Slowly but surely, NATOs plan is backfiring.
==
In the 78 days of the attacks, 540 buildings were destroyed, 58 bridges and 30,000 homes.
--
30,000 homes? That is madness. All of this death and destruction caused by NATO and all for nothing. Russia and China along with Serbia have ensured NATO has already lost.
RIP to all those innocent people that died in this act of aggression.
30,000 homes? and the hospitals and schools and power stations and water catchments and every other thing you can imagine...jesus you could really say that it was a successful bombing campaign. I'm sure everyone of those structures was used by the military.
The bombing commenced after failed peace negotiations in Rambouillet, France.
--
There were no peace negotiations in Rambouillet but rather an ultimatum. The two clauses in the so-called agreement that made it impossible for Serbia to sign were the insistance of NATO occupying all of Yugoslavia and that a referendum be held in Kosovo after three years.
==
The attacks ended on June 9 with the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement and the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
--
The reason it ended was due to Russia convincing NATO to drop the two clauses for full occupation and a referendum. UNSCR1244 was adopted and confirms Serbia's territorial integrity. NATO lost that war and is now trying to obtain independence by breaking international law. Slowly but surely, NATOs plan is backfiring.
==
In the 78 days of the attacks, 540 buildings were destroyed, 58 bridges and 30,000 homes.
--
30,000 homes? That is madness. All of this death and destruction caused by NATO and all for nothing. Russia and China along with Serbia have ensured NATO has already lost.
RIP to all those innocent people that died in this act of aggression.
30,000 homes? and the hospitals and schools and power stations and water catchments and every other thing you can imagine...jesus you could really say that it was a successful bombing campaign. I'm sure everyone of those structures was used by the military.
It took 19 countries and 78 days of bombing for west to end the mess they orchestrated for 7 years..At the end they still have a albanian hole they`ll never be able to do nothing with..
We`ll never forget..
It is terrible for any country to endure the bombing of its civilian population, regardless of ethnicity.
I can only imagine the horror and fear people must have felt to be attacked around the clock by the world's most sophisticated military alliance for 78 days.
There is no reason to bomb any nation and subject its citizens to such dangers and terrible personal loss.
I am completely against my nation's involvement in any war except where my own country is being directly attacked, or where there has been a democratic vote at the UN (or League of Nations as was) to use force.
In both these cases, human rights should be paramount; no more civilians being targeted or called 'collateral damage', or being deprived and terrorised through attacks on power grids, water sources, homes etc.
NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference.
RIP all those poor people and their loved ones left behind to mourn them.
Just few days before NATO’s “Merciful Angel” begun I left Prisitina and came home (Eastern Serbia) to visit parents and friends. I knew that NATO was going to start its “democratic and merciful” action but I just did not know when is going to begin. After the day I left I have never seen Pristina again. Or I did but under totally different circumstances and the visit was very short, just couple of hours.
During the bombardment I was not afraid, at least I was not aware of any fear at the time.
My family decided not to go to any shell during air strikes but to stay home and what ever happens happens.
We kind of decided to die together if some bomb hit our building .
Luckily, not a one bomb hit the building , however we did feel strong shaking.
We were trying to live as normally as possible, as nothing unusual happens. And so we did until the last day of NATO's bestial rampage.
Many years later in one foreign country I went out for a walk and while there , for some reason
I decided to stay out and watch Christmas firework. I don’t know why did I stay since I really don’t like all the madness around Christmas, but I stayed. When the firework begun I felt dizziness, disgust and felt like vomiting. The sound I heard reminded me so much of bombing. All I wanted at that moment was to leave the place as soon as possible. I felt tears wetting my face. I could not stop tears, I lost control over my eyes.
I realized then that some fear did exist and that sort of trauma never left
But I did not cry due to being aware of possible traumatic syndrome, I cried then because of Milica Rakic and because of all the innocent people who lost their lives while “righteous EU and USA” was dropping even more righteous, merciful and democratic bombs making a hell of my country.I cried becuse of my country.
Those children and people died of "merciful democracy".
I felt such bitter taste in my mouth after realizing that democracy doesn’t taste the way I was imagining.
Nevertheless, the most important thing I realized was how much I love my country and my people. I love every stone of Serbia.
I can say thank you “merciful NATO” for opening my eyes wide.
Democratic world exposed itself for what it is, showed me its true colours.
From the day first that “democratic world” begun air strikes against Serbia I despised every kind of possibility and move towrads the Euro-Atlantic integration.
May the victims rest in peace. My heart will always be with you.
Serbia should remain proud for resisting the worlds' most powerful military block for so long, only giving when when Yelstin stabbed Serbia in the back, having been told by the US that NATO "would level Belgrade" otherwise.
For all those politicians who supported NATO war crimes, I hope you get what you deserve in extremis, especially as we can never expect a war crimes trial of these people.
The only good news is that the slow implosion of NATO is continuing as US and European strategic interests continue to diverge. It is only a matter of time before this bastard organization dies, as it should have done after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Still, Serbia has only gotten stronger in the last few years and will continue to do so, much to the chagrin of its enemies and its two faced 'friends'.
These are reponsible for destruction of a country and brutal murder of innocent people all based on LIES AND PROPAGANDA! The amount of lies being blasted on their controlled media was unbelievable. Like when nato officials came on TV and said something like 'we have just received information that Serbs forces have executed rugova.'
This report does not explain why all of the countries in NATO in unity decided to act. It does not explain the years of lies form the Milosevic government or the disgust that the abuses and murders in Bosnia were about to be repeated in Kosovo. For the West inaction was no longer an option.
This is the first and hopefully the last time when I say something good of Eltsyn. In fact he did not mean the bombings ! He believed he could do something for his overseas sponsors but he never knew how cheap they did valued him. In fact we betrayed Serbia three times. First when we refused them S-300 systems . Then when we saved NATO of the fatal land operation and finally when we yielded to the pressure over the airport. And those were only sections in the long chain of our treasons when we betrayed all our friends worldwide.
But before that we betrayed ourselves when we let the enemies in. They were buying and making bankrupt our most effective military complex plants. We opened them the system of installing the espionage techniques. We opened other secrets they never dreamed of. Eltsyn declared FM Kozirev dismissed but after Clinton called him and said that “Andrey is a good guy” Boris let him work for another two years ! So by bombing Serbia they spited at Russia as well. And Yeltsyn was the last to know about the march at Pristina airport. So dear Alex I have to disagree with you cause what you say is just a small part of our guilt.
RIP to all the victims of the NATO war crimes, to the make-up women and the janitors, in the RTS building, to the civilians who were sitting in their homes while bombs fell on them, to the train passengers who were incinerated, to the Chinese embassy 'aggressors' who were murdured....
We know who is responsible for these crimes. It is Wesley Clark, Madeline Albright, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Rudolf Scharping, William Cohen, Sandy Berger, Joe Biden....
May these names live in infamy for the war crimes they have commited (for which there is OVERWHELMING evidence) and may their souls never rest.
We will never forget.
On behalf of all free thinking Americans, may I offer to Serbia and the Serbian people my sincere apologies for:
1. Illegally bombing your country and targeting its infrastructure and civilian locations
2. Knowingly and deliberately distorting information on CNN and other mainsteam media outlets to make your country and its people out to be a bunch of Eastern European savages
3. Preemptively planning the funding and support of paramilitary and paralegal organizations with the intention of violating a state's sovereignty for the sake of geostrategic gain.
All of this was done under the false pretenses of humanitarianism and state-building. Not all of us are intoxicated with faux-patriotism and an overexaggerated sense of American superiority. I was against the Bomardment then. I am against the Bombardment now.
Rote, 24 March 2010 19:34)
True, if Serbia did have the S300 systems there would be no NATO today, but Russia could not help Serbia at that time. There is nothing to forgive because Russia was on its knees – Clinton refused Yeltsin IMF loans if he did not play ball.
Russia was on the edge of civil war because of the various forces at play and if loans were not forthcoming there was a real chance of starvation through total economic collapse.
There is one man that has not forgotten this factor and his name is Vladimir Putin; why do you think the west despises him? “Evil overlord; exKGB officer, blah, blah and yet they don’t mention George Bush senior being the Director of the CIA or other senior officials having very strong connections to the intelligence communities.
I look with joy at the daily reports from Afghanistan and Iraq and watch with great happiness at the slow demise of both the US and its offspring NATO. What’s even more interesting is that the US has had to crawl to Russia to help it in Afghanistan otherwise NATO forces would be at the mercy of the Taliban.
This business of Serbia opening offices in NATO that is only Tadic and company sending their own people as part of crawling to the US otherwise no payments to them. All surveys have shown that 95% of Serbian citizens do not support such a move.
....."never forgive never forget"
(KOSTAS, 24 March 2010 19:43)
Kate said:"NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference."
--Kate you are misinformed about NATO's role. I suggest you read a little more about NATO. NATO is in no way UN's military arm, just as the UN is in no way the World's government. Inform yourself a little more next time. Learn how and why NATO was formed and learn the goals and objectives of NATO. NATO is a military alliance of a group of sovereign states. It's creation and mandate comes from this group of states, not from the UN and not from the secretary general.
I think every country should be responsible for the leaders they elect or allow them to lead. It is unfortunate that some people still would love to twist the historical facts.
R.I.P to all who died during this bombing. 30 billion in damage. 200,000 refugees. and 2,000 killed. As a Western European it is disgusting that my country took part in this.
pz: Just one CNN report that 100,000 Kosovo Albanians had been killed: http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/17/kosovo.01/index.html
I have to add that I am not belittling a single death of any innocent person killed of any ethnicity. But numbers were used to spin and to kill even more people.
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
(pz, 24 March 2010 18:27)
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
I don't often watch CNN and so cannot particularly comment on the finer points of its reporting. I would never dispute that there is fog and misinformation that comes from all sides.
I did follow the nasty war in Bosnia that got up the backs of the UN and every country in the 'West'. Too many innocents had died. The west had already had to intervene to stop the killing in Bosnia, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo. The NATO intervention did stop it repeating. I have no doubt that the same thugs who did the dirty deeds in Bosnia would have continued to do the same in Kosovo if there had not been International intervention. The west's inaction that initially made Bosnia possible, turned into action - which quite likely was the reason why there were not 100000 killed in Kosovo.
The very genuine concern in the West of a repeat of Bosnia was what sparked the bombings. The west had an obligation to act.
For years Milosevic tried to take the west for being fools, but eventually the game stopped. By the time they trapped him in the corner at Rambouilett they were already fed up with his games - he had already gone too far and it was too late. Basically, he had lied to them too often and they were not going to let him get away with it again. Milosevic played with people's lives. People said he was 'clever' whereas all he was really is someone who would bend which ever way in order keep in power.
He played it badly and history caught up with him. It could not last forever.
Fortunately it was Serbs who eventually banged the pots, blew the whistles, marched in the streets and refused to accept his electoral cheating. It was brilliant!
I support Serbia's ownership of Kosovo, I understand the will of Bosnian Serbs not to be bought back under any form of Islamic rule.
However, I do not accept the behaviour of thugs as being acceptable, and I much regret the damage that their behaviour has bought to Serbia's reputation in the world.
Russia was not in that bad situation to explain everything. There was no threat of a civil war and there were many ways of filling the empty shelves. Those were propagandist ducks still exploited by the West’s agents of influence. They still repeat those mantras to explain the destruction of the most powerful state. Hungarians sold 30% of their state property for USD 27 Bln while we sold 70 000 objects for damned USD 9 Bln. So privatization followed not economical but only political goals. In fact I see little difference between Leh Valensa , Boris Yeltsyn , Hashim Thaci , Mike Saakashvili , Milo Djukanovic , Ginjic , Yushenko and other Washington guys.
They stopped for a while demonizing Serbs and Russians to concentrate on Iran and Afghanistan. So they close their eyes on the fact that the two Asian peoples has never attacked anyone for centuries. They describe the Afghan partisans as if they were a part of the virtual Al Qaeda. But even their own president F.D. Roosevelt once said that “you cannot deceive many people very long”. And some day they will have to explain their defeat in Asia. They will also have to explain why after the occupation the output of heroin in Afghanistan has increased 32 times and why should the biggest narco baron be the President of this state.
When the disintegration of Yugo began about 200 000 Albanians alone left that country and went to Germany where the German Foreign Affairs Minister stated on TV “that Yugoslav papers are no longer valid and should be thrown away – little did they think that all these people would do just that and remain in Germany to this day.
Cohen’s statement is rubbish. If that was the case how were the Albanians able to return to their homes so quickly after NATO took over in Kosovo? Utter propaganda rubbish!
The former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert in a fit of rage over being criticized by the EU on invading Lebanon in 2006 stated “where do the European countries get to criticize Israel when they killed 10 000 people in Kosovo and no one even fired a bullet at them”. This tells it all!
An interesting item about William Cohen; Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in NY after the Kosovo, but when Cohen got a report on Serb equipment damaged by bombing he was fuming. Clarke told him that Serbs had lost more than 60% capacity. The report stated that Serbs left with all their equipment in tact with only 10 or 12 four military pieces destroyed and they were not sure if they just did not break down. Cohen went through the roof; he dismissed Clarke quietly as head of NATO three months before his term expired.
pz - I am truly sorry that you have experienced war first hand. And to everyone who has suffered through war.
Of course you are right that 'reported missing' and 'killed' are different things, in normal circumstances. But when a massive attack can be launched on the basis of 'what is going to happen' then the line is very thin indeed.
The numbers were used as spin to justify the attack, so it worked.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
"As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans."
-- Huh? Oh, you're not one of those "if you're not with us, you're against us" Americans, are you?
Thank you Kate for the link! Please read this part and tell me where it says that 100, 000 Kosovo Albanians were killed??
“U.S. defense secretary: Up to 100,000 Kosovar men missing
In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
While reports indicate that 4,600 Kosovar men have been executed, he said, "I expect it's far higher than that."
Cohen said a total of 1.5 million ethnic Albanians -- out of Kosovo's pre-conflict population of 1.8 million -- have either fled the region or been displaced internally.
Yugoslavia has denied allegations that its military has committed mass executions, calling the charges NATO manipulation of Western media. Yugoslav authorities also blame the NATO bombings for the diaspora of ethnic Albanians.”
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
A person can twist whatever it is they want in order to fulfill whatever purpose. But that doesn't (and never will...)excuse what NATO did. Kosovo was not a war, it was an anti-terrorist operation. Terrorists, sponsored by local Albanians and Albanians living abroad. And exaggerated by Western spin-kings.
For you Aleks since you at least indicated your contempt for NATO criminals I feel contempt for Milosevic and his sympathizers or supporters. As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans. Finally I want to add by saying that I don't have a problem with Serb nationals residing in America and or visiting the country but I have a problem if some Serb(s) expects to be above American society.
Nato war against us was illegal and criminal. 1. illegal in international law. Illegal in Nato statute. Read Nato statute please 2. criminal killing civilians and bombing civilian infrastructure 3. criminal making into real war simple anti terror operations in Kosovo 4. criminal making 30 bil dollars damage 5. criminal because of fabricated cause and real goal to rob sovereign country of sovereign territory 6. impotent because they said it would take 78 hours and it took 78 days to end and only because Russians got involved 7. failure because of 1244.
Nato must 1. apologise to Serbia and families of victims 2. prosecute war criminals at least in command responsibility 3. pay reparations to state and families of victims 4. send rasmusen or whoever was put there to kneel in front of milica rakic's grave
Then we will leave past and build our pretty future together in one big happy family. Before that we will never forget and never forgive. Anyone who thinks this is just slogans doesnt know first thing about us Serbs.
Rest in peace our victims torn to pieces and burned alive. We will not forget.
DimTuc: "Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate."
Now you are spinning or 'doing a Cohen' as we can call it.
That figure you state (and as you say yourself, the official figure is actually under 5,000) includes combatants from both sides and civilians of all ethnicities.
Not one of these lives lost are a light matter, but stop claiming that the figures only include Albanian civilians; it's not correct in any official report.
What I want to know is why the 'Western' media has ignored this story about the lies told to attack a European nation and terrorise its people? I wait for the truth to come out.
"You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly." (Anti-Milosevic)
-- Well I guess the issue I have is finding how you equate my distaste for the 1999 war with somehow approving of Milosevic, which I most assuredly do not and did not. One can certainly be against a state-sponsored course of action against another state and still find rhe regime of said state distasteful. Many people opposed the war in Iraq, but I daresay they thought Saddam was a swell guy. But as for associating with people "who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with", that's just human nature regardless of nation or nationality. We tend to gravite towards those who share similar opinions with our own and distance ourselves from those who don't.
Rest assured, if you've read my comments here over the years, I'm no fan of Slobo and Im certainly not one of those people who have an affinity for demagogues simply because they're anti-American.
"Anti-Milosevic" - what are you going on about in such an unpunctuated way? If English is your first language than most of the people on here put you to shame (and probably also speak 3rd languages as well).
Most people weren't even pro-Milosevic when he was alive let alone 10 years later.
And millions of people of all nationalities (including moi - that's French for me, by the way) were against the attack on Serbia and didn't support Milosevic. Although I think it was pathetic how he was demonised to such an extent.
Going on about being "Anti-Milosevic" is just ridiculous. You're 10 years too late!
It would be fun to hear your other views on Europeans, freedom fries, the EU etc. though. Let me guess...
Thank goodness there are some articulate bright Americans on here to keep the light of hope shining.
Johnny - It is illegal for Nato to take military action without a Security Council resolution. I call that a link.
(kate, 24 March 2010 21:43)
Kate calling something a link and calling something a military branch of the UN are completely different. The UN cannot order NATO to take part in any operations. Also the question of legality as it can be seen takes second sit if NATO members believe they are threatened. If there is a threat against NATO members they do not need a green light from the UN. That's the whole reason why NATO and the Warsaw Pact were created. If either Russia or the US attacked each other the UN could in no way give permission to these military alliances to attack; but they still had the power to do it. Again the UN is not the World's government. Enforcement of anything coming from the UN is completely voluntary; meaning if the 5 UNSC members feel like enforcing resolutions they will be enforced, if not they won't. That is why Darfur and Eritrea happened. There were resolutions but they weren't enforced. Now if we're talking about legality in any member states not enforcing laws that lead to murder is illegal but that is not true when it comes to the UN. What happens around the world is solely dependent on those 5 members and how strong the influence is in certain parts of the world. There is no equal before the law when it comes to the UN. The Chinese have a strong influence in Sudan hence Darfur was allowed to happen. There's hundreds of examples. The UN does not govern the world.
It is all good now.Serbia is opening its own office in NATO headqurters in Brusels.Nothing happened.Serbia never killed albanians,Nato never bombed Serbia.
You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly.Finally if people like me don't want to pity Milosevic nor pity his sympathizers or supporters(irrespective of their nationality) than that should be my and/or our right.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
(kate, 25 March 2010 10:09)
kate, as far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong), your mother tongue is English, and if you tell me that ‘may’ and ‘have been’ is the same then I can not help you with that.
I’ve started all this to deny some of the claims that western media and western leaders made up these figures for propaganda to justify the attack.
I’ve experienced the war myself; I’ve seen many terrible things happening, including separation of men of military age from their families at the border crossing, and no one knew what happened to them, until they were subsequently released and rejoined with their families (not all of them, though). So, from the moment of their separation, they were considered as missing, and having seen what had happened in Bosnia in similar cases and then in Kosovo, their families thought that they ‘might have been murdered’. Cohen, reported based on the stories and reports from the field, and then CNN only conveyed what Cohen actually said. It was not that Cohen and or CNN invented these stories and figures.
Now, I don’t know what kind of reports you consider official, but I think it would be good for you to check the following links and hopefully you’ll understand that it is not all the same- it is not just mass propaganda based on nothing,:
Certain things you've said don't make much sense and for your kind information it's been more than 10 years since I've held anti-Milosevic beliefs and finally I owe no one an apology for my personal beliefs including those who've poorly rated my comments.Okay?
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
(kate, 25 March 2010 18:34)
International law does not function in the same away as a country's laws function. The difference again being that UN resolutions get enforced as the 5 veto holding UNSC members wish. Its all up to them to pick and choose what to enforce. Its all voluntary and individual. None of the other members holding veto power can make the other enforce a resolution. Even the UN has no right to order any military alliance to attack a member state or even non-members for that matter. They can do it if the 5 veto holding members agree with each other, and decide to bomb someplace but that does not necessarily makes it right or legal. Its all about who holds power and might. Its how it always been, and its how it will always be. There are no safeguards. If the big and mighty choose to do something it will get done. Nothing will stop it. NO UNSC, and not any other body. Iraq, Abkhazia etc etc. are examples. It'd be nice living in that utopic word of yours where the little guy had as much decision-making power as the big and mighty but that has never been the case and it will never be the case. Until then all the little guy can do is to make sure he is on the right side of the fence and stop making televised threats to those who head the big and mighty.
Thanks pz exactly. Cohen said 4600 had been killed, not 100,000. That is clear to anyone who knows how to read. It is annoying to see this totally dishonest claim bandied about year after year. Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate.
This report does not explain why all of the countries in NATO in unity decided to act. It does not explain the years of lies form the Milosevic government or the disgust that the abuses and murders in Bosnia were about to be repeated in Kosovo. For the West inaction was no longer an option.
I think every country should be responsible for the leaders they elect or allow them to lead. It is unfortunate that some people still would love to twist the historical facts.
The bombing commenced after failed peace negotiations in Rambouillet, France.
--
There were no peace negotiations in Rambouillet but rather an ultimatum. The two clauses in the so-called agreement that made it impossible for Serbia to sign were the insistance of NATO occupying all of Yugoslavia and that a referendum be held in Kosovo after three years.
==
The attacks ended on June 9 with the signing of the Kumanovo Agreement and the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 1244.
--
The reason it ended was due to Russia convincing NATO to drop the two clauses for full occupation and a referendum. UNSCR1244 was adopted and confirms Serbia's territorial integrity. NATO lost that war and is now trying to obtain independence by breaking international law. Slowly but surely, NATOs plan is backfiring.
==
In the 78 days of the attacks, 540 buildings were destroyed, 58 bridges and 30,000 homes.
--
30,000 homes? That is madness. All of this death and destruction caused by NATO and all for nothing. Russia and China along with Serbia have ensured NATO has already lost.
RIP to all those innocent people that died in this act of aggression.
Serbia should remain proud for resisting the worlds' most powerful military block for so long, only giving when when Yelstin stabbed Serbia in the back, having been told by the US that NATO "would level Belgrade" otherwise.
For all those politicians who supported NATO war crimes, I hope you get what you deserve in extremis, especially as we can never expect a war crimes trial of these people.
The only good news is that the slow implosion of NATO is continuing as US and European strategic interests continue to diverge. It is only a matter of time before this bastard organization dies, as it should have done after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Still, Serbia has only gotten stronger in the last few years and will continue to do so, much to the chagrin of its enemies and its two faced 'friends'.
Just few days before NATO’s “Merciful Angel” begun I left Prisitina and came home (Eastern Serbia) to visit parents and friends. I knew that NATO was going to start its “democratic and merciful” action but I just did not know when is going to begin. After the day I left I have never seen Pristina again. Or I did but under totally different circumstances and the visit was very short, just couple of hours.
During the bombardment I was not afraid, at least I was not aware of any fear at the time.
My family decided not to go to any shell during air strikes but to stay home and what ever happens happens.
We kind of decided to die together if some bomb hit our building .
Luckily, not a one bomb hit the building , however we did feel strong shaking.
We were trying to live as normally as possible, as nothing unusual happens. And so we did until the last day of NATO's bestial rampage.
Many years later in one foreign country I went out for a walk and while there , for some reason
I decided to stay out and watch Christmas firework. I don’t know why did I stay since I really don’t like all the madness around Christmas, but I stayed. When the firework begun I felt dizziness, disgust and felt like vomiting. The sound I heard reminded me so much of bombing. All I wanted at that moment was to leave the place as soon as possible. I felt tears wetting my face. I could not stop tears, I lost control over my eyes.
I realized then that some fear did exist and that sort of trauma never left
But I did not cry due to being aware of possible traumatic syndrome, I cried then because of Milica Rakic and because of all the innocent people who lost their lives while “righteous EU and USA” was dropping even more righteous, merciful and democratic bombs making a hell of my country.I cried becuse of my country.
Those children and people died of "merciful democracy".
I felt such bitter taste in my mouth after realizing that democracy doesn’t taste the way I was imagining.
Nevertheless, the most important thing I realized was how much I love my country and my people. I love every stone of Serbia.
I can say thank you “merciful NATO” for opening my eyes wide.
Democratic world exposed itself for what it is, showed me its true colours.
From the day first that “democratic world” begun air strikes against Serbia I despised every kind of possibility and move towrads the Euro-Atlantic integration.
May the victims rest in peace. My heart will always be with you.
For you Aleks since you at least indicated your contempt for NATO criminals I feel contempt for Milosevic and his sympathizers or supporters. As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans. Finally I want to add by saying that I don't have a problem with Serb nationals residing in America and or visiting the country but I have a problem if some Serb(s) expects to be above American society.
It took 19 countries and 78 days of bombing for west to end the mess they orchestrated for 7 years..At the end they still have a albanian hole they`ll never be able to do nothing with..
We`ll never forget..
Thank you Kate for the link! Please read this part and tell me where it says that 100, 000 Kosovo Albanians were killed??
“U.S. defense secretary: Up to 100,000 Kosovar men missing
In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
While reports indicate that 4,600 Kosovar men have been executed, he said, "I expect it's far higher than that."
Cohen said a total of 1.5 million ethnic Albanians -- out of Kosovo's pre-conflict population of 1.8 million -- have either fled the region or been displaced internally.
Yugoslavia has denied allegations that its military has committed mass executions, calling the charges NATO manipulation of Western media. Yugoslav authorities also blame the NATO bombings for the diaspora of ethnic Albanians.”
It is terrible for any country to endure the bombing of its civilian population, regardless of ethnicity.
I can only imagine the horror and fear people must have felt to be attacked around the clock by the world's most sophisticated military alliance for 78 days.
There is no reason to bomb any nation and subject its citizens to such dangers and terrible personal loss.
I am completely against my nation's involvement in any war except where my own country is being directly attacked, or where there has been a democratic vote at the UN (or League of Nations as was) to use force.
In both these cases, human rights should be paramount; no more civilians being targeted or called 'collateral damage', or being deprived and terrorised through attacks on power grids, water sources, homes etc.
NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference.
RIP all those poor people and their loved ones left behind to mourn them.
I don't often watch CNN and so cannot particularly comment on the finer points of its reporting. I would never dispute that there is fog and misinformation that comes from all sides.
I did follow the nasty war in Bosnia that got up the backs of the UN and every country in the 'West'. Too many innocents had died. The west had already had to intervene to stop the killing in Bosnia, and it could not be allowed to repeat in Kosovo. The NATO intervention did stop it repeating. I have no doubt that the same thugs who did the dirty deeds in Bosnia would have continued to do the same in Kosovo if there had not been International intervention. The west's inaction that initially made Bosnia possible, turned into action - which quite likely was the reason why there were not 100000 killed in Kosovo.
The very genuine concern in the West of a repeat of Bosnia was what sparked the bombings. The west had an obligation to act.
For years Milosevic tried to take the west for being fools, but eventually the game stopped. By the time they trapped him in the corner at Rambouilett they were already fed up with his games - he had already gone too far and it was too late. Basically, he had lied to them too often and they were not going to let him get away with it again. Milosevic played with people's lives. People said he was 'clever' whereas all he was really is someone who would bend which ever way in order keep in power.
He played it badly and history caught up with him. It could not last forever.
Fortunately it was Serbs who eventually banged the pots, blew the whistles, marched in the streets and refused to accept his electoral cheating. It was brilliant!
I support Serbia's ownership of Kosovo, I understand the will of Bosnian Serbs not to be bought back under any form of Islamic rule.
However, I do not accept the behaviour of thugs as being acceptable, and I much regret the damage that their behaviour has bought to Serbia's reputation in the world.
30,000 homes? and the hospitals and schools and power stations and water catchments and every other thing you can imagine...jesus you could really say that it was a successful bombing campaign. I'm sure everyone of those structures was used by the military.
These are reponsible for destruction of a country and brutal murder of innocent people all based on LIES AND PROPAGANDA! The amount of lies being blasted on their controlled media was unbelievable. Like when nato officials came on TV and said something like 'we have just received information that Serbs forces have executed rugova.'
Certain things you've said don't make much sense and for your kind information it's been more than 10 years since I've held anti-Milosevic beliefs and finally I owe no one an apology for my personal beliefs including those who've poorly rated my comments.Okay?
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
It is all good now.Serbia is opening its own office in NATO headqurters in Brusels.Nothing happened.Serbia never killed albanians,Nato never bombed Serbia.
R.I.P to all who died during this bombing. 30 billion in damage. 200,000 refugees. and 2,000 killed. As a Western European it is disgusting that my country took part in this.
On behalf of all free thinking Americans, may I offer to Serbia and the Serbian people my sincere apologies for:
1. Illegally bombing your country and targeting its infrastructure and civilian locations
2. Knowingly and deliberately distorting information on CNN and other mainsteam media outlets to make your country and its people out to be a bunch of Eastern European savages
3. Preemptively planning the funding and support of paramilitary and paralegal organizations with the intention of violating a state's sovereignty for the sake of geostrategic gain.
All of this was done under the false pretenses of humanitarianism and state-building. Not all of us are intoxicated with faux-patriotism and an overexaggerated sense of American superiority. I was against the Bomardment then. I am against the Bombardment now.
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
(kate, 25 March 2010 18:34)
International law does not function in the same away as a country's laws function. The difference again being that UN resolutions get enforced as the 5 veto holding UNSC members wish. Its all up to them to pick and choose what to enforce. Its all voluntary and individual. None of the other members holding veto power can make the other enforce a resolution. Even the UN has no right to order any military alliance to attack a member state or even non-members for that matter. They can do it if the 5 veto holding members agree with each other, and decide to bomb someplace but that does not necessarily makes it right or legal. Its all about who holds power and might. Its how it always been, and its how it will always be. There are no safeguards. If the big and mighty choose to do something it will get done. Nothing will stop it. NO UNSC, and not any other body. Iraq, Abkhazia etc etc. are examples. It'd be nice living in that utopic word of yours where the little guy had as much decision-making power as the big and mighty but that has never been the case and it will never be the case. Until then all the little guy can do is to make sure he is on the right side of the fence and stop making televised threats to those who head the big and mighty.
Rote, 24 March 2010 19:34)
True, if Serbia did have the S300 systems there would be no NATO today, but Russia could not help Serbia at that time. There is nothing to forgive because Russia was on its knees – Clinton refused Yeltsin IMF loans if he did not play ball.
Russia was on the edge of civil war because of the various forces at play and if loans were not forthcoming there was a real chance of starvation through total economic collapse.
There is one man that has not forgotten this factor and his name is Vladimir Putin; why do you think the west despises him? “Evil overlord; exKGB officer, blah, blah and yet they don’t mention George Bush senior being the Director of the CIA or other senior officials having very strong connections to the intelligence communities.
I look with joy at the daily reports from Afghanistan and Iraq and watch with great happiness at the slow demise of both the US and its offspring NATO. What’s even more interesting is that the US has had to crawl to Russia to help it in Afghanistan otherwise NATO forces would be at the mercy of the Taliban.
This business of Serbia opening offices in NATO that is only Tadic and company sending their own people as part of crawling to the US otherwise no payments to them. All surveys have shown that 95% of Serbian citizens do not support such a move.
....."never forgive never forget"
(KOSTAS, 24 March 2010 19:43)
RIP to all the victims of the NATO war crimes, to the make-up women and the janitors, in the RTS building, to the civilians who were sitting in their homes while bombs fell on them, to the train passengers who were incinerated, to the Chinese embassy 'aggressors' who were murdured....
We know who is responsible for these crimes. It is Wesley Clark, Madeline Albright, Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Rudolf Scharping, William Cohen, Sandy Berger, Joe Biden....
May these names live in infamy for the war crimes they have commited (for which there is OVERWHELMING evidence) and may their souls never rest.
We will never forget.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
(kate, 25 March 2010 10:09)
kate, as far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong), your mother tongue is English, and if you tell me that ‘may’ and ‘have been’ is the same then I can not help you with that.
I’ve started all this to deny some of the claims that western media and western leaders made up these figures for propaganda to justify the attack.
I’ve experienced the war myself; I’ve seen many terrible things happening, including separation of men of military age from their families at the border crossing, and no one knew what happened to them, until they were subsequently released and rejoined with their families (not all of them, though). So, from the moment of their separation, they were considered as missing, and having seen what had happened in Bosnia in similar cases and then in Kosovo, their families thought that they ‘might have been murdered’. Cohen, reported based on the stories and reports from the field, and then CNN only conveyed what Cohen actually said. It was not that Cohen and or CNN invented these stories and figures.
Now, I don’t know what kind of reports you consider official, but I think it would be good for you to check the following links and hopefully you’ll understand that it is not all the same- it is not just mass propaganda based on nothing,:
"Anti-Milosevic" - what are you going on about in such an unpunctuated way? If English is your first language than most of the people on here put you to shame (and probably also speak 3rd languages as well).
Most people weren't even pro-Milosevic when he was alive let alone 10 years later.
And millions of people of all nationalities (including moi - that's French for me, by the way) were against the attack on Serbia and didn't support Milosevic. Although I think it was pathetic how he was demonised to such an extent.
Going on about being "Anti-Milosevic" is just ridiculous. You're 10 years too late!
It would be fun to hear your other views on Europeans, freedom fries, the EU etc. though. Let me guess...
Thank goodness there are some articulate bright Americans on here to keep the light of hope shining.
Johnny - It is illegal for Nato to take military action without a Security Council resolution. I call that a link.
(kate, 24 March 2010 21:43)
Kate calling something a link and calling something a military branch of the UN are completely different. The UN cannot order NATO to take part in any operations. Also the question of legality as it can be seen takes second sit if NATO members believe they are threatened. If there is a threat against NATO members they do not need a green light from the UN. That's the whole reason why NATO and the Warsaw Pact were created. If either Russia or the US attacked each other the UN could in no way give permission to these military alliances to attack; but they still had the power to do it. Again the UN is not the World's government. Enforcement of anything coming from the UN is completely voluntary; meaning if the 5 UNSC members feel like enforcing resolutions they will be enforced, if not they won't. That is why Darfur and Eritrea happened. There were resolutions but they weren't enforced. Now if we're talking about legality in any member states not enforcing laws that lead to murder is illegal but that is not true when it comes to the UN. What happens around the world is solely dependent on those 5 members and how strong the influence is in certain parts of the world. There is no equal before the law when it comes to the UN. The Chinese have a strong influence in Sudan hence Darfur was allowed to happen. There's hundreds of examples. The UN does not govern the world.
pz: re. "In Washington, Cohen said as many as 100,000 ethnic Albanian men of military age are missing and "may have been murdered."
Oh, okay, so you think that that saying 100,000 'may' have been killed is different to 'have been' killed' in terms of spinning figures to justify the attack on Serbia?
Please it's all the same - just mass propaganda which was based on nothing.
DimTuc: "Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate."
Now you are spinning or 'doing a Cohen' as we can call it.
That figure you state (and as you say yourself, the official figure is actually under 5,000) includes combatants from both sides and civilians of all ethnicities.
Not one of these lives lost are a light matter, but stop claiming that the figures only include Albanian civilians; it's not correct in any official report.
What I want to know is why the 'Western' media has ignored this story about the lies told to attack a European nation and terrorise its people? I wait for the truth to come out.
pz: Just one CNN report that 100,000 Kosovo Albanians had been killed: http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/17/kosovo.01/index.html
I have to add that I am not belittling a single death of any innocent person killed of any ethnicity. But numbers were used to spin and to kill even more people.
You mean like CNN reporting 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were killed?
(Matthew, 24 March 2010 17:05)
Can you please provide us with a link to such CNN report?? Thank you.
(pz, 24 March 2010 18:27)
When the disintegration of Yugo began about 200 000 Albanians alone left that country and went to Germany where the German Foreign Affairs Minister stated on TV “that Yugoslav papers are no longer valid and should be thrown away – little did they think that all these people would do just that and remain in Germany to this day.
Cohen’s statement is rubbish. If that was the case how were the Albanians able to return to their homes so quickly after NATO took over in Kosovo? Utter propaganda rubbish!
The former Israeli PM Ehud Olmert in a fit of rage over being criticized by the EU on invading Lebanon in 2006 stated “where do the European countries get to criticize Israel when they killed 10 000 people in Kosovo and no one even fired a bullet at them”. This tells it all!
An interesting item about William Cohen; Wesley Clarke wanted a parade in NY after the Kosovo, but when Cohen got a report on Serb equipment damaged by bombing he was fuming. Clarke told him that Serbs had lost more than 60% capacity. The report stated that Serbs left with all their equipment in tact with only 10 or 12 four military pieces destroyed and they were not sure if they just did not break down. Cohen went through the roof; he dismissed Clarke quietly as head of NATO three months before his term expired.
Thanks pz exactly. Cohen said 4600 had been killed, not 100,000. That is clear to anyone who knows how to read. It is annoying to see this totally dishonest claim bandied about year after year. Given the real number killed was 10-12,000, Cohen's claim was likely an underestimate.
"As for you Mike even though I'm not going to accuse you of being a pro-Milosevic American I will state that if there are pro-Milosevic Americans then I'm to refuse to treat them the exact way I could treat anti-Milosevic Americans."
-- Huh? Oh, you're not one of those "if you're not with us, you're against us" Americans, are you?
This is the first and hopefully the last time when I say something good of Eltsyn. In fact he did not mean the bombings ! He believed he could do something for his overseas sponsors but he never knew how cheap they did valued him. In fact we betrayed Serbia three times. First when we refused them S-300 systems . Then when we saved NATO of the fatal land operation and finally when we yielded to the pressure over the airport. And those were only sections in the long chain of our treasons when we betrayed all our friends worldwide.
But before that we betrayed ourselves when we let the enemies in. They were buying and making bankrupt our most effective military complex plants. We opened them the system of installing the espionage techniques. We opened other secrets they never dreamed of. Eltsyn declared FM Kozirev dismissed but after Clinton called him and said that “Andrey is a good guy” Boris let him work for another two years ! So by bombing Serbia they spited at Russia as well. And Yeltsyn was the last to know about the march at Pristina airport. So dear Alex I have to disagree with you cause what you say is just a small part of our guilt.
Russia was not in that bad situation to explain everything. There was no threat of a civil war and there were many ways of filling the empty shelves. Those were propagandist ducks still exploited by the West’s agents of influence. They still repeat those mantras to explain the destruction of the most powerful state. Hungarians sold 30% of their state property for USD 27 Bln while we sold 70 000 objects for damned USD 9 Bln. So privatization followed not economical but only political goals. In fact I see little difference between Leh Valensa , Boris Yeltsyn , Hashim Thaci , Mike Saakashvili , Milo Djukanovic , Ginjic , Yushenko and other Washington guys.
They stopped for a while demonizing Serbs and Russians to concentrate on Iran and Afghanistan. So they close their eyes on the fact that the two Asian peoples has never attacked anyone for centuries. They describe the Afghan partisans as if they were a part of the virtual Al Qaeda. But even their own president F.D. Roosevelt once said that “you cannot deceive many people very long”. And some day they will have to explain their defeat in Asia. They will also have to explain why after the occupation the output of heroin in Afghanistan has increased 32 times and why should the biggest narco baron be the President of this state.
Kate said:"NATO is supposed to be the military arm of the UN, which protects its members and people within international law. But the idea that NATO can be used without such a resolution takes away the very democracy that the attackers often claim to be forcing upon perfectly innocent people.
We need a UN Secretary General with metal cojones to preserve the international legal framework; and to put an end to political interference."
--Kate you are misinformed about NATO's role. I suggest you read a little more about NATO. NATO is in no way UN's military arm, just as the UN is in no way the World's government. Inform yourself a little more next time. Learn how and why NATO was formed and learn the goals and objectives of NATO. NATO is a military alliance of a group of sovereign states. It's creation and mandate comes from this group of states, not from the UN and not from the secretary general.
You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly.Finally if people like me don't want to pity Milosevic nor pity his sympathizers or supporters(irrespective of their nationality) than that should be my and/or our right.
Nato war against us was illegal and criminal. 1. illegal in international law. Illegal in Nato statute. Read Nato statute please 2. criminal killing civilians and bombing civilian infrastructure 3. criminal making into real war simple anti terror operations in Kosovo 4. criminal making 30 bil dollars damage 5. criminal because of fabricated cause and real goal to rob sovereign country of sovereign territory 6. impotent because they said it would take 78 hours and it took 78 days to end and only because Russians got involved 7. failure because of 1244.
Nato must 1. apologise to Serbia and families of victims 2. prosecute war criminals at least in command responsibility 3. pay reparations to state and families of victims 4. send rasmusen or whoever was put there to kneel in front of milica rakic's grave
Then we will leave past and build our pretty future together in one big happy family. Before that we will never forget and never forgive. Anyone who thinks this is just slogans doesnt know first thing about us Serbs.
Rest in peace our victims torn to pieces and burned alive. We will not forget.
pz - I am truly sorry that you have experienced war first hand. And to everyone who has suffered through war.
Of course you are right that 'reported missing' and 'killed' are different things, in normal circumstances. But when a massive attack can be launched on the basis of 'what is going to happen' then the line is very thin indeed.
The numbers were used as spin to justify the attack, so it worked.
"You're not implying that I'm anti-American are you? Besides how can I be anti-American if I judge Americans by their actions not their nationality,having said that,I prefer Americans who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with over Americans who I don't relate to and those who're in essence not so friendly." (Anti-Milosevic)
-- Well I guess the issue I have is finding how you equate my distaste for the 1999 war with somehow approving of Milosevic, which I most assuredly do not and did not. One can certainly be against a state-sponsored course of action against another state and still find rhe regime of said state distasteful. Many people opposed the war in Iraq, but I daresay they thought Saddam was a swell guy. But as for associating with people "who are essentially pleasant and someone who I can identify with", that's just human nature regardless of nation or nationality. We tend to gravite towards those who share similar opinions with our own and distance ourselves from those who don't.
Rest assured, if you've read my comments here over the years, I'm no fan of Slobo and Im certainly not one of those people who have an affinity for demagogues simply because they're anti-American.
And Nato does not have the right to take military action outside of international law whenever it pleases. That is why there is the safeguard of the UN Security Council.
A person can twist whatever it is they want in order to fulfill whatever purpose. But that doesn't (and never will...)excuse what NATO did. Kosovo was not a war, it was an anti-terrorist operation. Terrorists, sponsored by local Albanians and Albanians living abroad. And exaggerated by Western spin-kings.
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