Peking - As someone who has spent a lot of time in Serbia, I think that most Serbs have moved on from Kosovo. In fact, I think they had done so a long time ago. What really angers people is the way in which the matter was 'resolved'. The idea that Ahtisaari conducted a fair and open negotiating process is a complete fiction. He did not. Instead, he attempted to impose a solution that was favoured by certain elements of the international community that were afraid that if the KAs did not get what they wanted they would rebel against NATO and the UN presences in the province. This would have been a very difficult situation to explain to the public in the countries that originally supported the action against Serbia.
So, what we are now left with is two issues that need to be addressed. First of all, how do we address the grievance of Serbs who felt that their position was completely ignored? Some sort of face saving way out is needed to allow the Government and the (I suspect) majority of Serbs who care little for Kosovo to walk away with a modicum of pride.
(By the way, before this is seen as irrational, I would draw a parallel with Northern Ireland. Most British care little for the place and have no intrinsic attachment to it. However, if the UN came in and imposed a solution that was then endorsed by the US and accepted by most of its EU partners, there would be absolute fury on the streets and in the media. The Serbs are not displaying a stereotypically Balkan mentality. They are behaving in the way that most nations would if presented with such a clearly unfair process.)
The second issue, which is actually more important in many ways, is the question of the Serbs remaining in Kosovo. Surely, their rights and desires deserve to be heard as much as those of the KAs. Just as the Kosovo Albanians refuse to live under Belgrade's rule, then the same right of self-determination should surely be respected. One of the things that I am always amazed at when I come here is the degree to which Kosovo Albanians refuse to understand or acknowledge that Kosovo Serbs have the same rights to refuse to accept Pristina's rule as the Kosovo Albanians have to reject Belgrade's administration. This is one of the main gripes of moderate Serbs and international who post here.
(To be fair, there do appear to be some KA posters who can see this as well. One question I have and would like to hear from them is whether there is any serious discussion of this option in Kosovo Albanian society.)
The two points are, of course, linked. This is why I have long advocated partition - with Serbia keeping the north (which was never traditionally a part of Kosovo, but was added on after WWII to give the province a more Serbian flavour) in return for accepting independence of the rest.
It just seems the most obvious way of allowing the Serbs to feel that they have been given something and, at the same time, ensure that a large number of Serbs can have their right of self-determination. Of course, this does not solve everything. But if mixed with full rights for Serbs who remain in the south of Kosovo it would present a more plausible and sustainable outcome than the current situation.
Independence is the compromise. If independnece fails, Kosovos only path left is a union with Albania.
(Valon, 26 February 2010 06:29)
Partition is compromise.
(Peking, 26 February 2010 05:44)
You make a good point, I am not sure you can have an argument without demonizing the other side.
When I first went to Kosovo 4 years ago, my immediate thought was that Kosovo's only chance for survival was as part of Serbia, but it did not take me long to come under the firm belief that the only chance for survival of the non Serb people of Kosovo was never to return to Serbia.
One cannot rule out history though, noting that when Kosovo declared independence in 1990 following Milosevic's stripping the province of its autonomy, there was no international support for the move. It was only after the acts committed during the 1990's and no guarantees that if Kosovo returned to Serbia these acts would not be repeated, that international support was garnered for an independent Kosovo.
It is my belief that the goals of Serbia is not for the betterment of Kosovo, but to insure that the Albanian population does not succeed.
Ok, this is my first comment after a few years of reading B92. It seems every article like this receives the exact same responses from the Serb and Albanian camps, e.g. “this country sux becuz it recognized/won’t recognize kosovo’s indepandance i hate them its ok the usa/russia is on r side sux for you ROFLMAO!!!1@!” I commend your consistency in writing, but let’s get some variety in the comments.
It would be great to have some intelligent debate – so if you do respond, please save us the “Serbia/Kosovo is the guilty party, we’ve been here forever and they killed this many people in this year and they owe us reparations and apologies and they all deserve to die.” I’m not looking for a history lesson, a sob story, or statistics on how oppressed a specific side is…I’m just looking for some intelligent comments (preferably spell checked and grammar checked) to the following:
-Serbs on this site always comment that they want Kosovo, but spew a lot of hate about Kosovo Albanians. If Kosovo came under Belgrade’s control tomorrow (hypothetical, relax) what would happen? Does Serbia really want to take on Kosovo’s problems regarding debt, infrastructure, development, crime, etc? It seems to me that the Serb camp wants the territory, minus the people living there. Kosovo Albanians aren’t going anywhere, so how would Serbia deal with this as it continues to work towards the EU?
Sorry for the long comment, just the one topic for now. Hope it gets some good debate going.
Please, no comments justifying one side by demonizing the other. It would be great to hear what some of you actually think on a personal level, sans nationalism.
Why they don't have Patriarch Irinej thank Indonesia, Lybia, and Egypt for recognizing Kosovo. He has a special connection with the people in those countries.
"Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.:
I didn't know that you accompany Jeremic to his meetings and are privy to what is said there. Well done.
Whatever Jeremic says to keep the recognitions to a low number is OK with me. Obviously the pleading, bribing and whining from your side isn't working on these countries so Jeremic's begging must be better.
"In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
(Luca, "
Yeah Luca well done, thank you for telling us who you are, and for the great debate on referendums on western countries on Kosovo.
But if you missed the big picture, Kosovo has already had its own referendum and decided that Serbia is not fit to rule itself, fearing the football hooligans let alone mingle in Kosovo.
Secondly, you are right that there are some bad apples in Kosovo, but to harm a hole country because of individuals... Well since you know so much about Serbia, you sound ridiculous.
Why did you need to spoil it with "im not a Serbien" part?
Isn Serbia good enough for you?
It is more and more funny to read comments from k-a who think to have their fate in their hands... But let me be more clear and explain what is clear point by point.
1. kosovo at the moment is not a country in the real sense of the word.
2. at the moment kosovo is sitll part of Serbia if we take a look on the international laws.
3. A very poor number of countries (even the most developed of the world) have recognized it.
4. The countries which recognized kosovo as a state did it only because they had foreign political convenience to follow the americans.
5. kosovo is not a part of Europe and I doubt that every european would accept the entrance of kosovo inside the UE at least because it would be unusefull economically and more because it will allow k-alb. criminals to move free inside developed countries.
6. That thesis is proved when "not developed" countries like Indonesia decide not to recognize kosovo... They have nothing to gain in following the americans.
7. kosovo should have to be gratefull to Serbia if it accept to bring it back not as a "special" province because k people can only have gains from this operation.
8. More and not last by importance it is important to understand that even if rich countries have recognized politically the indipendence of kosovo, this chose is not the one of their all inhabitants. In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
"Indonesia is a country no one cares, a black hole and home of freaks"
but:
"Malaysia is the country everyone should care, best place on Earth and with most wonderful people"
The truth: basically the same mentality and ethnic background. Just one decided one way, the other decided the other way. As for language: Bahasa Indonesia is nearly identical to Bahasa Malaysia.
The quality of the country, it's priority as place for vacation or business has nothing to do with the fact, did it recognize Kosovo or not. Because Kosovo compared with both Malaysia and Indonesia is a little patch of land. And they (Indonesians or Malaysians) don't care less. Even not about bigger Serbia or Croatia or Hungary. We are not the center of the known universe.
If you do not care about Indonesia or Sri Lanka - your stomach does it for you.
For instance, Sri Lanka does not recognize Kosovo - but without the tea from Sri Lanka you guys (and myself) are like the drug addicts without the grass.
Most of the rice you eat is coming from Indonesia, Thailand, VietNam and to a lesser degree, China.
Of course, you can buy rice from Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. But the price is different.
"Kosovo Awashed in Poverty" That is what I read in the media these days. Only a stupid, american politician would try to make Kosovo into a country. A rational economist or an investment banker would never even try. What happened to the billions in aid? A lot of it went to bribing countries into recognizing Kosovo, paying off outsiders "policing" the pseudo-state and into the pockets of the k-albo mafia. And it all comes crashing down after the ICJ ruling against the UDI. Way to go, morons.
BTW, the last time I read about it, the IMF was trying to get Serbia to accept a loan from them to keep Serbia on an eu track rather than become a Russian satellite. This is what frustrate washington every day now: they compare how many countries they have to float financially to the small handful of countries being floated by the Russians and the Chinese.
Kosova-USA, not only have you demonstrated that you care about this article and the information contained within by simply reading, and/or taking the time out of your busy day to post something, but also that you're the first poster regarding this article. You, my friend, care.
Visi,
with respect to an intellectual argument about why Serbia wants to retain Kosovo, consider this. Serbia has a great number of interests within Kosovo that it feels are not worth giving up without a fight. Serbia has spent a great deal of its history and its historical money building up what is in Kosovo. Those Monasteries and Churches were not funded by the Albanian-for-Serbian-Fund, but rather by Serbians directly. The infrastructure was paid for by Serbia to a large degree, and of course the natural resources that lay within, on and under the land that Serbia owns are of interest. These resources do include the population even though population has demonstrated time and time again that they do not wish to be part of a society in which they have been included in. By taking Kosovo, the Albanians are not simply removing themselves from Serbia, but rather they are essentially stealing all of the investments that Serbia has made into Kosovo. Free choice is one thing, but it is not always free. Kosovo is not offering to pay back, with properly dated interests the cost of investments that Serbia has made, nor can they afford it.
My God ! This is of huge importance for Serbia. After the UNSC members, this country is of extreme importance because its connections to the muslim countries far east and Africa.
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
.....
(Demi, 25 February 2010 14:36)
The truth is we need as many countries as we can have, but we have to settle for what we get. There is no love from Indonesia neither for Kosova nor Serbia. These Serb delegations going all around try to make it sound as if whoever haven't recognized K yet, is a staunch supporter of Serbia's position. They don't give a hoot for Serbia. It's more like if I am asked to take a side on a dispute that is taking place in another town. I will say I'll do nothing, until perhaps the court solves it first or if there is something in it for me. Either way I will perhaps look at it when I have some free time and nothing else to do.
Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.
I am very optimistic about ICJ results. At the minimum if ICJ doesn't condemn K-Independence the fear of doing something irrational, will go away and these countries won't have any excuse to continue to refuse. But then again, will be others that will still insists just for the heck of it (like microbe Cyprus), but many that have been in doubt will jump the fence and join K-club.
"Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe."
Demi
There is nothing in Kosovo or Albania that would suggest you are part of Europe. People continue to flee Kosovo as well as Albania. Albania is as close to joining the EU as Australia and Kosovo is run by drug lords. Albanians in Kosovo have destroyed nearly every Serbian church and on a daily basis attack Serbs and their cemeteries. Where else in Europe do you have that?
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
(Visi, 25 February 2010 15:08)
Uhh..! WILL YOU UNDERSTAND INTELLECTUAL VIEW ??! Your main partner (the US) understands RECOGNIZE while "independes" is supposed to be INDEPENDENCE "exacly" EXACTLY!! Anyway, this tinny red zigzag all over your text will help you to understand. Once you do not see it (zigzag) anymore you're ready for forum!! Just helping! ALWAYS at your service!
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
Indonesia,China,Russia never recognizing that narco state and illegal Nato military base?
Well is there a more helpless and useless black hole on this Planet?
Times of the "glory" in killing and expelling Serbian civilians with the generous help of Nato are over.
So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
"So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
(dean SRB,"
Wow, thank you for your contribution, so you will give "pain" to the "terrorist Albanians".
And what would you be to have bigger pain than terror?
Just remember that both Kosovo and Serbia borrow from the same bodys, IMF and WB. ;)
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe.
Indonesia,China,Russia never recognizing that narco state and illegal Nato military base?
Well is there a more helpless and useless black hole on this Planet?
Times of the "glory" in killing and expelling Serbian civilians with the generous help of Nato are over.
So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
Kosova-USA, not only have you demonstrated that you care about this article and the information contained within by simply reading, and/or taking the time out of your busy day to post something, but also that you're the first poster regarding this article. You, my friend, care.
Visi,
with respect to an intellectual argument about why Serbia wants to retain Kosovo, consider this. Serbia has a great number of interests within Kosovo that it feels are not worth giving up without a fight. Serbia has spent a great deal of its history and its historical money building up what is in Kosovo. Those Monasteries and Churches were not funded by the Albanian-for-Serbian-Fund, but rather by Serbians directly. The infrastructure was paid for by Serbia to a large degree, and of course the natural resources that lay within, on and under the land that Serbia owns are of interest. These resources do include the population even though population has demonstrated time and time again that they do not wish to be part of a society in which they have been included in. By taking Kosovo, the Albanians are not simply removing themselves from Serbia, but rather they are essentially stealing all of the investments that Serbia has made into Kosovo. Free choice is one thing, but it is not always free. Kosovo is not offering to pay back, with properly dated interests the cost of investments that Serbia has made, nor can they afford it.
It is more and more funny to read comments from k-a who think to have their fate in their hands... But let me be more clear and explain what is clear point by point.
1. kosovo at the moment is not a country in the real sense of the word.
2. at the moment kosovo is sitll part of Serbia if we take a look on the international laws.
3. A very poor number of countries (even the most developed of the world) have recognized it.
4. The countries which recognized kosovo as a state did it only because they had foreign political convenience to follow the americans.
5. kosovo is not a part of Europe and I doubt that every european would accept the entrance of kosovo inside the UE at least because it would be unusefull economically and more because it will allow k-alb. criminals to move free inside developed countries.
6. That thesis is proved when "not developed" countries like Indonesia decide not to recognize kosovo... They have nothing to gain in following the americans.
7. kosovo should have to be gratefull to Serbia if it accept to bring it back not as a "special" province because k people can only have gains from this operation.
8. More and not last by importance it is important to understand that even if rich countries have recognized politically the indipendence of kosovo, this chose is not the one of their all inhabitants. In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
"Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe."
Demi
There is nothing in Kosovo or Albania that would suggest you are part of Europe. People continue to flee Kosovo as well as Albania. Albania is as close to joining the EU as Australia and Kosovo is run by drug lords. Albanians in Kosovo have destroyed nearly every Serbian church and on a daily basis attack Serbs and their cemeteries. Where else in Europe do you have that?
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe.
"Indonesia is a country no one cares, a black hole and home of freaks"
but:
"Malaysia is the country everyone should care, best place on Earth and with most wonderful people"
The truth: basically the same mentality and ethnic background. Just one decided one way, the other decided the other way. As for language: Bahasa Indonesia is nearly identical to Bahasa Malaysia.
The quality of the country, it's priority as place for vacation or business has nothing to do with the fact, did it recognize Kosovo or not. Because Kosovo compared with both Malaysia and Indonesia is a little patch of land. And they (Indonesians or Malaysians) don't care less. Even not about bigger Serbia or Croatia or Hungary. We are not the center of the known universe.
If you do not care about Indonesia or Sri Lanka - your stomach does it for you.
For instance, Sri Lanka does not recognize Kosovo - but without the tea from Sri Lanka you guys (and myself) are like the drug addicts without the grass.
Most of the rice you eat is coming from Indonesia, Thailand, VietNam and to a lesser degree, China.
Of course, you can buy rice from Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. But the price is different.
"Kosovo Awashed in Poverty" That is what I read in the media these days. Only a stupid, american politician would try to make Kosovo into a country. A rational economist or an investment banker would never even try. What happened to the billions in aid? A lot of it went to bribing countries into recognizing Kosovo, paying off outsiders "policing" the pseudo-state and into the pockets of the k-albo mafia. And it all comes crashing down after the ICJ ruling against the UDI. Way to go, morons.
BTW, the last time I read about it, the IMF was trying to get Serbia to accept a loan from them to keep Serbia on an eu track rather than become a Russian satellite. This is what frustrate washington every day now: they compare how many countries they have to float financially to the small handful of countries being floated by the Russians and the Chinese.
My God ! This is of huge importance for Serbia. After the UNSC members, this country is of extreme importance because its connections to the muslim countries far east and Africa.
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
(Visi, 25 February 2010 15:08)
Uhh..! WILL YOU UNDERSTAND INTELLECTUAL VIEW ??! Your main partner (the US) understands RECOGNIZE while "independes" is supposed to be INDEPENDENCE "exacly" EXACTLY!! Anyway, this tinny red zigzag all over your text will help you to understand. Once you do not see it (zigzag) anymore you're ready for forum!! Just helping! ALWAYS at your service!
"So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
(dean SRB,"
Wow, thank you for your contribution, so you will give "pain" to the "terrorist Albanians".
And what would you be to have bigger pain than terror?
Just remember that both Kosovo and Serbia borrow from the same bodys, IMF and WB. ;)
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
.....
(Demi, 25 February 2010 14:36)
The truth is we need as many countries as we can have, but we have to settle for what we get. There is no love from Indonesia neither for Kosova nor Serbia. These Serb delegations going all around try to make it sound as if whoever haven't recognized K yet, is a staunch supporter of Serbia's position. They don't give a hoot for Serbia. It's more like if I am asked to take a side on a dispute that is taking place in another town. I will say I'll do nothing, until perhaps the court solves it first or if there is something in it for me. Either way I will perhaps look at it when I have some free time and nothing else to do.
Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.
I am very optimistic about ICJ results. At the minimum if ICJ doesn't condemn K-Independence the fear of doing something irrational, will go away and these countries won't have any excuse to continue to refuse. But then again, will be others that will still insists just for the heck of it (like microbe Cyprus), but many that have been in doubt will jump the fence and join K-club.
"Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.:
I didn't know that you accompany Jeremic to his meetings and are privy to what is said there. Well done.
Whatever Jeremic says to keep the recognitions to a low number is OK with me. Obviously the pleading, bribing and whining from your side isn't working on these countries so Jeremic's begging must be better.
Ok, this is my first comment after a few years of reading B92. It seems every article like this receives the exact same responses from the Serb and Albanian camps, e.g. “this country sux becuz it recognized/won’t recognize kosovo’s indepandance i hate them its ok the usa/russia is on r side sux for you ROFLMAO!!!1@!” I commend your consistency in writing, but let’s get some variety in the comments.
It would be great to have some intelligent debate – so if you do respond, please save us the “Serbia/Kosovo is the guilty party, we’ve been here forever and they killed this many people in this year and they owe us reparations and apologies and they all deserve to die.” I’m not looking for a history lesson, a sob story, or statistics on how oppressed a specific side is…I’m just looking for some intelligent comments (preferably spell checked and grammar checked) to the following:
-Serbs on this site always comment that they want Kosovo, but spew a lot of hate about Kosovo Albanians. If Kosovo came under Belgrade’s control tomorrow (hypothetical, relax) what would happen? Does Serbia really want to take on Kosovo’s problems regarding debt, infrastructure, development, crime, etc? It seems to me that the Serb camp wants the territory, minus the people living there. Kosovo Albanians aren’t going anywhere, so how would Serbia deal with this as it continues to work towards the EU?
Sorry for the long comment, just the one topic for now. Hope it gets some good debate going.
Please, no comments justifying one side by demonizing the other. It would be great to hear what some of you actually think on a personal level, sans nationalism.
"In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
(Luca, "
Yeah Luca well done, thank you for telling us who you are, and for the great debate on referendums on western countries on Kosovo.
But if you missed the big picture, Kosovo has already had its own referendum and decided that Serbia is not fit to rule itself, fearing the football hooligans let alone mingle in Kosovo.
Secondly, you are right that there are some bad apples in Kosovo, but to harm a hole country because of individuals... Well since you know so much about Serbia, you sound ridiculous.
Why did you need to spoil it with "im not a Serbien" part?
Isn Serbia good enough for you?
Why they don't have Patriarch Irinej thank Indonesia, Lybia, and Egypt for recognizing Kosovo. He has a special connection with the people in those countries.
(Peking, 26 February 2010 05:44)
You make a good point, I am not sure you can have an argument without demonizing the other side.
When I first went to Kosovo 4 years ago, my immediate thought was that Kosovo's only chance for survival was as part of Serbia, but it did not take me long to come under the firm belief that the only chance for survival of the non Serb people of Kosovo was never to return to Serbia.
One cannot rule out history though, noting that when Kosovo declared independence in 1990 following Milosevic's stripping the province of its autonomy, there was no international support for the move. It was only after the acts committed during the 1990's and no guarantees that if Kosovo returned to Serbia these acts would not be repeated, that international support was garnered for an independent Kosovo.
It is my belief that the goals of Serbia is not for the betterment of Kosovo, but to insure that the Albanian population does not succeed.
Independence is the compromise. If independnece fails, Kosovos only path left is a union with Albania.
(Valon, 26 February 2010 06:29)
Partition is compromise.
Peking - As someone who has spent a lot of time in Serbia, I think that most Serbs have moved on from Kosovo. In fact, I think they had done so a long time ago. What really angers people is the way in which the matter was 'resolved'. The idea that Ahtisaari conducted a fair and open negotiating process is a complete fiction. He did not. Instead, he attempted to impose a solution that was favoured by certain elements of the international community that were afraid that if the KAs did not get what they wanted they would rebel against NATO and the UN presences in the province. This would have been a very difficult situation to explain to the public in the countries that originally supported the action against Serbia.
So, what we are now left with is two issues that need to be addressed. First of all, how do we address the grievance of Serbs who felt that their position was completely ignored? Some sort of face saving way out is needed to allow the Government and the (I suspect) majority of Serbs who care little for Kosovo to walk away with a modicum of pride.
(By the way, before this is seen as irrational, I would draw a parallel with Northern Ireland. Most British care little for the place and have no intrinsic attachment to it. However, if the UN came in and imposed a solution that was then endorsed by the US and accepted by most of its EU partners, there would be absolute fury on the streets and in the media. The Serbs are not displaying a stereotypically Balkan mentality. They are behaving in the way that most nations would if presented with such a clearly unfair process.)
The second issue, which is actually more important in many ways, is the question of the Serbs remaining in Kosovo. Surely, their rights and desires deserve to be heard as much as those of the KAs. Just as the Kosovo Albanians refuse to live under Belgrade's rule, then the same right of self-determination should surely be respected. One of the things that I am always amazed at when I come here is the degree to which Kosovo Albanians refuse to understand or acknowledge that Kosovo Serbs have the same rights to refuse to accept Pristina's rule as the Kosovo Albanians have to reject Belgrade's administration. This is one of the main gripes of moderate Serbs and international who post here.
(To be fair, there do appear to be some KA posters who can see this as well. One question I have and would like to hear from them is whether there is any serious discussion of this option in Kosovo Albanian society.)
The two points are, of course, linked. This is why I have long advocated partition - with Serbia keeping the north (which was never traditionally a part of Kosovo, but was added on after WWII to give the province a more Serbian flavour) in return for accepting independence of the rest.
It just seems the most obvious way of allowing the Serbs to feel that they have been given something and, at the same time, ensure that a large number of Serbs can have their right of self-determination. Of course, this does not solve everything. But if mixed with full rights for Serbs who remain in the south of Kosovo it would present a more plausible and sustainable outcome than the current situation.
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe.
"So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
(dean SRB,"
Wow, thank you for your contribution, so you will give "pain" to the "terrorist Albanians".
And what would you be to have bigger pain than terror?
Just remember that both Kosovo and Serbia borrow from the same bodys, IMF and WB. ;)
Indonesia,China,Russia never recognizing that narco state and illegal Nato military base?
Well is there a more helpless and useless black hole on this Planet?
Times of the "glory" in killing and expelling Serbian civilians with the generous help of Nato are over.
So now the pain will start...let's see for how long the West will be happy to pay the bills for that useless and with terrorism obsessed Albanian population.
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
"Maybee Serebia should move it's location closer to Asia where they feel they have friends. We albanians are Europeans so we stick to Europe."
Demi
There is nothing in Kosovo or Albania that would suggest you are part of Europe. People continue to flee Kosovo as well as Albania. Albania is as close to joining the EU as Australia and Kosovo is run by drug lords. Albanians in Kosovo have destroyed nearly every Serbian church and on a daily basis attack Serbs and their cemeteries. Where else in Europe do you have that?
We only need USA thank you. But we also got Great Britian, France, Italy,Germany.Sweden and Japan. The most powerful countrys in the world in all aspects.
.....
(Demi, 25 February 2010 14:36)
The truth is we need as many countries as we can have, but we have to settle for what we get. There is no love from Indonesia neither for Kosova nor Serbia. These Serb delegations going all around try to make it sound as if whoever haven't recognized K yet, is a staunch supporter of Serbia's position. They don't give a hoot for Serbia. It's more like if I am asked to take a side on a dispute that is taking place in another town. I will say I'll do nothing, until perhaps the court solves it first or if there is something in it for me. Either way I will perhaps look at it when I have some free time and nothing else to do.
Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.
I am very optimistic about ICJ results. At the minimum if ICJ doesn't condemn K-Independence the fear of doing something irrational, will go away and these countries won't have any excuse to continue to refuse. But then again, will be others that will still insists just for the heck of it (like microbe Cyprus), but many that have been in doubt will jump the fence and join K-club.
Serbia is asking Country's not to Recognise Kosovo's Independes , what i would like to know as a Kosovar is :what does exacly Serbia gain's from it , a Intelektual view will be Appriciated
(Visi, 25 February 2010 15:08)
Uhh..! WILL YOU UNDERSTAND INTELLECTUAL VIEW ??! Your main partner (the US) understands RECOGNIZE while "independes" is supposed to be INDEPENDENCE "exacly" EXACTLY!! Anyway, this tinny red zigzag all over your text will help you to understand. Once you do not see it (zigzag) anymore you're ready for forum!! Just helping! ALWAYS at your service!
"In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
(Luca, "
Yeah Luca well done, thank you for telling us who you are, and for the great debate on referendums on western countries on Kosovo.
But if you missed the big picture, Kosovo has already had its own referendum and decided that Serbia is not fit to rule itself, fearing the football hooligans let alone mingle in Kosovo.
Secondly, you are right that there are some bad apples in Kosovo, but to harm a hole country because of individuals... Well since you know so much about Serbia, you sound ridiculous.
Why did you need to spoil it with "im not a Serbien" part?
Isn Serbia good enough for you?
It is more and more funny to read comments from k-a who think to have their fate in their hands... But let me be more clear and explain what is clear point by point.
1. kosovo at the moment is not a country in the real sense of the word.
2. at the moment kosovo is sitll part of Serbia if we take a look on the international laws.
3. A very poor number of countries (even the most developed of the world) have recognized it.
4. The countries which recognized kosovo as a state did it only because they had foreign political convenience to follow the americans.
5. kosovo is not a part of Europe and I doubt that every european would accept the entrance of kosovo inside the UE at least because it would be unusefull economically and more because it will allow k-alb. criminals to move free inside developed countries.
6. That thesis is proved when "not developed" countries like Indonesia decide not to recognize kosovo... They have nothing to gain in following the americans.
7. kosovo should have to be gratefull to Serbia if it accept to bring it back not as a "special" province because k people can only have gains from this operation.
8. More and not last by importance it is important to understand that even if rich countries have recognized politically the indipendence of kosovo, this chose is not the one of their all inhabitants. In fact, many Germans, Italians and Frenchs are not content of this kind of chose (I am one of them for exemple and I am not Serbian). I am sure that if there was the possibility to make a referendum on the issue of kosovo around those countries, the result would say the contrary of the decision that their governments took.
Why they don't have Patriarch Irinej thank Indonesia, Lybia, and Egypt for recognizing Kosovo. He has a special connection with the people in those countries.
"Kosovo Awashed in Poverty" That is what I read in the media these days. Only a stupid, american politician would try to make Kosovo into a country. A rational economist or an investment banker would never even try. What happened to the billions in aid? A lot of it went to bribing countries into recognizing Kosovo, paying off outsiders "policing" the pseudo-state and into the pockets of the k-albo mafia. And it all comes crashing down after the ICJ ruling against the UDI. Way to go, morons.
BTW, the last time I read about it, the IMF was trying to get Serbia to accept a loan from them to keep Serbia on an eu track rather than become a Russian satellite. This is what frustrate washington every day now: they compare how many countries they have to float financially to the small handful of countries being floated by the Russians and the Chinese.
"Wherever Serb delegations go, the most recent ones in Budapest and Spain, they plead with others to say something how they refused to recognize K. Very pathetic and childish, but in reality it only exposes Serbia's insecurity to the matter.:
I didn't know that you accompany Jeremic to his meetings and are privy to what is said there. Well done.
Whatever Jeremic says to keep the recognitions to a low number is OK with me. Obviously the pleading, bribing and whining from your side isn't working on these countries so Jeremic's begging must be better.
(Peking, 26 February 2010 05:44)
You make a good point, I am not sure you can have an argument without demonizing the other side.
When I first went to Kosovo 4 years ago, my immediate thought was that Kosovo's only chance for survival was as part of Serbia, but it did not take me long to come under the firm belief that the only chance for survival of the non Serb people of Kosovo was never to return to Serbia.
One cannot rule out history though, noting that when Kosovo declared independence in 1990 following Milosevic's stripping the province of its autonomy, there was no international support for the move. It was only after the acts committed during the 1990's and no guarantees that if Kosovo returned to Serbia these acts would not be repeated, that international support was garnered for an independent Kosovo.
It is my belief that the goals of Serbia is not for the betterment of Kosovo, but to insure that the Albanian population does not succeed.
Kosova-USA, not only have you demonstrated that you care about this article and the information contained within by simply reading, and/or taking the time out of your busy day to post something, but also that you're the first poster regarding this article. You, my friend, care.
Visi,
with respect to an intellectual argument about why Serbia wants to retain Kosovo, consider this. Serbia has a great number of interests within Kosovo that it feels are not worth giving up without a fight. Serbia has spent a great deal of its history and its historical money building up what is in Kosovo. Those Monasteries and Churches were not funded by the Albanian-for-Serbian-Fund, but rather by Serbians directly. The infrastructure was paid for by Serbia to a large degree, and of course the natural resources that lay within, on and under the land that Serbia owns are of interest. These resources do include the population even though population has demonstrated time and time again that they do not wish to be part of a society in which they have been included in. By taking Kosovo, the Albanians are not simply removing themselves from Serbia, but rather they are essentially stealing all of the investments that Serbia has made into Kosovo. Free choice is one thing, but it is not always free. Kosovo is not offering to pay back, with properly dated interests the cost of investments that Serbia has made, nor can they afford it.
My God ! This is of huge importance for Serbia. After the UNSC members, this country is of extreme importance because its connections to the muslim countries far east and Africa.
"Indonesia is a country no one cares, a black hole and home of freaks"
but:
"Malaysia is the country everyone should care, best place on Earth and with most wonderful people"
The truth: basically the same mentality and ethnic background. Just one decided one way, the other decided the other way. As for language: Bahasa Indonesia is nearly identical to Bahasa Malaysia.
The quality of the country, it's priority as place for vacation or business has nothing to do with the fact, did it recognize Kosovo or not. Because Kosovo compared with both Malaysia and Indonesia is a little patch of land. And they (Indonesians or Malaysians) don't care less. Even not about bigger Serbia or Croatia or Hungary. We are not the center of the known universe.
If you do not care about Indonesia or Sri Lanka - your stomach does it for you.
For instance, Sri Lanka does not recognize Kosovo - but without the tea from Sri Lanka you guys (and myself) are like the drug addicts without the grass.
Most of the rice you eat is coming from Indonesia, Thailand, VietNam and to a lesser degree, China.
Of course, you can buy rice from Taiwan, South Korea, Japan. But the price is different.
Ok, this is my first comment after a few years of reading B92. It seems every article like this receives the exact same responses from the Serb and Albanian camps, e.g. “this country sux becuz it recognized/won’t recognize kosovo’s indepandance i hate them its ok the usa/russia is on r side sux for you ROFLMAO!!!1@!” I commend your consistency in writing, but let’s get some variety in the comments.
It would be great to have some intelligent debate – so if you do respond, please save us the “Serbia/Kosovo is the guilty party, we’ve been here forever and they killed this many people in this year and they owe us reparations and apologies and they all deserve to die.” I’m not looking for a history lesson, a sob story, or statistics on how oppressed a specific side is…I’m just looking for some intelligent comments (preferably spell checked and grammar checked) to the following:
-Serbs on this site always comment that they want Kosovo, but spew a lot of hate about Kosovo Albanians. If Kosovo came under Belgrade’s control tomorrow (hypothetical, relax) what would happen? Does Serbia really want to take on Kosovo’s problems regarding debt, infrastructure, development, crime, etc? It seems to me that the Serb camp wants the territory, minus the people living there. Kosovo Albanians aren’t going anywhere, so how would Serbia deal with this as it continues to work towards the EU?
Sorry for the long comment, just the one topic for now. Hope it gets some good debate going.
Please, no comments justifying one side by demonizing the other. It would be great to hear what some of you actually think on a personal level, sans nationalism.
Peking - As someone who has spent a lot of time in Serbia, I think that most Serbs have moved on from Kosovo. In fact, I think they had done so a long time ago. What really angers people is the way in which the matter was 'resolved'. The idea that Ahtisaari conducted a fair and open negotiating process is a complete fiction. He did not. Instead, he attempted to impose a solution that was favoured by certain elements of the international community that were afraid that if the KAs did not get what they wanted they would rebel against NATO and the UN presences in the province. This would have been a very difficult situation to explain to the public in the countries that originally supported the action against Serbia.
So, what we are now left with is two issues that need to be addressed. First of all, how do we address the grievance of Serbs who felt that their position was completely ignored? Some sort of face saving way out is needed to allow the Government and the (I suspect) majority of Serbs who care little for Kosovo to walk away with a modicum of pride.
(By the way, before this is seen as irrational, I would draw a parallel with Northern Ireland. Most British care little for the place and have no intrinsic attachment to it. However, if the UN came in and imposed a solution that was then endorsed by the US and accepted by most of its EU partners, there would be absolute fury on the streets and in the media. The Serbs are not displaying a stereotypically Balkan mentality. They are behaving in the way that most nations would if presented with such a clearly unfair process.)
The second issue, which is actually more important in many ways, is the question of the Serbs remaining in Kosovo. Surely, their rights and desires deserve to be heard as much as those of the KAs. Just as the Kosovo Albanians refuse to live under Belgrade's rule, then the same right of self-determination should surely be respected. One of the things that I am always amazed at when I come here is the degree to which Kosovo Albanians refuse to understand or acknowledge that Kosovo Serbs have the same rights to refuse to accept Pristina's rule as the Kosovo Albanians have to reject Belgrade's administration. This is one of the main gripes of moderate Serbs and international who post here.
(To be fair, there do appear to be some KA posters who can see this as well. One question I have and would like to hear from them is whether there is any serious discussion of this option in Kosovo Albanian society.)
The two points are, of course, linked. This is why I have long advocated partition - with Serbia keeping the north (which was never traditionally a part of Kosovo, but was added on after WWII to give the province a more Serbian flavour) in return for accepting independence of the rest.
It just seems the most obvious way of allowing the Serbs to feel that they have been given something and, at the same time, ensure that a large number of Serbs can have their right of self-determination. Of course, this does not solve everything. But if mixed with full rights for Serbs who remain in the south of Kosovo it would present a more plausible and sustainable outcome than the current situation.
Independence is the compromise. If independnece fails, Kosovos only path left is a union with Albania.
(Valon, 26 February 2010 06:29)
Partition is compromise.
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