Brammertz: Mladić must be punished

"Mladić must be punished"

Ok! But who is going to punish NATO for the killing of thousands of Serbs and the destruction of an entire country?

Will this mechanism only be implemented for Mladic or any other outstanding suspects?

If it is only there for Mladic I suspect it won't be there at all as this is proof of the witch hunt you are on.

If Roberto is so omnipotent and all-knowing, maybe he should lead the investigation... or maybe he just prefers to be a tired, old windbag on the sidelines?

Catch Mladic, means to face the past. That's something Serbian Society is not ready for.
Maybee one day new serb generation will not accept that's all Anti-Serb-conspiracy, ask why these heroes are accused of war crimes and how their fathers 'protected' Serb heritage in Para-groups.

I hope that whatever mechanism is set in place will punish all those western politicians and diplomats who broke up Yugoslavia for political and financial reasons and who ignited the flames of war.

Did I miss something like a trial perhaps? Has Mladic been proven guilty without his day in court? Is this a fair trial? I thought it was innocent UNTIL proven guilty? Why would anyone expect anything less from this mockery of a court set up to cover the rears of western " leaders."

Mladic should never face a Hauge judge - even if his alleged crimes are true, there should be impartial justice, try all war criminals, from all sides, equally - and the Hauge is a complete failure in that regard. And may the non-arrest of Mladic always be a thorn in the West's side for their miserable failures in Bosnia.

Dream on mr.inquisitor.

Russia will not allow another round of these stalinist show-trials. So suggest the anglo-american NATO-crowd in their ridiculous mason-wigs to start secret inquisitions in the american torture-gulags like Guantanamo and Abu ghraib...

Good luck.

Brammertz: Mladić must be punished

Wow. I find this a little bit unsettling. Although I personally feel that Mladic has a certain degree of guilt related to the wars, I am certainly not up to the task of playing judge, jury and executioner without a trial. This sort of altruistic, megalomaniac statement is truly scary. The great bastions of due process and well established legal systems are being eroded faster than we can witness.
It is bad enough that in the past 50+ years of global policing we have witnessed only the 'losing side' being taken to court over war crimes, but now we're witnessing that the winning side is determined to asses the outcome prior to any such court hearings.
It is certainly true that Hitler's forces and policies were horrible moments in human history, however, the Allies were not without their own evils. The allies were unpunished for them.
Consider that Hitler and co were publicly denounced for their actions, one of them was the relentless bombing of London town, but the Allies were not even spoken to with a harsh tongue for the obliteration of Dresden.
Similarly the Serbian forces and politicos are the only publicized 'evil' in the FJ wars, yet a clear reasonable thinking person notices the similarities that were happening on both sides, and that were supplanted from the outside.
Again, I am not in any which way defending the actions of Mladic and co, but am trying to appeal to the logical thinking minds that have read this statement and wondered how one can go so far as this without exposing a plethora of biases, biases which likely are there to protect oneself and hide their own past and present actions.

A person with no fear of the truth does not need to go on the attack.

I would have fully agreed with a statement that went along the lines of "Mladic must be tried", or better still, "All evil doers must be tried", but this is total one-sided egotistical bleating.

Now, further from the point. I wonder if western European society would welcome a honest reparations style trial, one in which the truths are openly exposed (even though we all know many of them) about their thieving pasts. I wonder how many an illustrious European and American's wealth was derived from the colonialism and slave trades that made their nations wealthy. I wonder if any one of their legal systems would have the huevos to, not only admit their faults and wrong doings, but also to restore and repay what they stole, killed, raped, and pillaged? My guess is 0, and I'm certain here that I'm very close to the actual answer.
When hypocrisy reigns over our collective amnesiac societies we are free to point fingers elsewhere.

Don't you pride yourself in knowing everything? Then you should know the answer to that since you seem to have inside info.
(Peggy, 18 February 2010 23:40)

Clearly Roberto is one of these old horses who THINKS he knows everything and does not hesitate to remind EVERYONE of this. These are the most annoying type of people - the self-proclaimed "expert" on everything.

Roberto knows how to save Bosnia.

Roberto knows how to save Kosovo.

Roberto knows how to fix Serbia.

Roberto knows how to apprehend and prosecute Mladic.

His arrogance knows no bounds ...or... is it a cover up for a has-been who really never amounted to much to begin with?

Hey, Roberto, don't you think Jason has some time to himself? Don't you think he has breaks during the workday? Most people do. And what he does for a living, who he works for, and how much he earns is his business, not yours. As for you, I have read some of your posts, and they are all anti-Serb. You always point out the crimes, injustices, bad politicians of the Serbs, but never any of the same with other ethnicities. If anyone honestly believes that their ethnic group was clean, and only Serbs did bad things, is living in a cloud. Only when all sides are held accountable for their crimes and injustices, will there possibly be a chance for peace in the Balkans. BTW, S.F. used to be a great city, unfortunately if has evolved into a liberal fantasyland today, so anything that comes out of there a take with a little hesitance.

All criminals should be punished doesn't matter where they come from !

Ali Baba - I'm sure he's guilty, but he's still entitled to a fair trial (if there is such a thing). I think most Serbs wouldn't have a problem with mladic facing justice if war criminals from other sides were given the same treatment , i.e. Naser Oric and his buddies. Amazing how 3000+ Serbs around Srebrenica were murdered and only one person is convicted - Oric for 2 years. If all sides were treated equally I'm sure no Serb would deny anyone justice, but it seems that the process is biased!

Peggy if you actually followed the ICTY cases you'd know that there are only 2 suspects remaing - Mladic for genocide amongst other crimes, and Hadzic for forced removal/ ethnic cleansing of Croats from theri homes in Croatia (something Serbs always tend to 'forget' about) and murder. You only think it's a which hunt because the ICTY has targetted more Serbs then all others combined. But you fail to realise that that's not because of a withch hunt but because that the Serbs initiated 4 wars in the region and tried to carve out an enthnically cleansed Greater Serbia. I should know, I was forced to leave my home with my family when i was 10 because my mother was a Croat even though my dad was Serb.

hope that whatever mechanism is set in place will punish all those western politicians and diplomats who broke up Yugoslavia for political and financial reasons and who ignited the flames of war.
(mary walsh, 18 February 2010 11:29)

I believe the idea of Yugoslavia is more attractive than Yugoslavia itself. it was an unatural and inorganic entity, held together under a fake ideology - communism, and not mutual respect and common values.

As you see even in here, Serbs were itching to get back to Croats and Bosniaks for the ethnic conflict of WWII.

Slovenians felt they did not deserve to be bossed around by Serbs (as they felt more pro-Italo-Austrians than pan-sllavics) and Albanians had no intentions whatsoever to live under a brutal Serbian regime with a well documented past of anti-Albanian policies.

Tito managed to surpress all this past but after a few years of his death we had Serbian Academics come up with their famous nationalistic memorandum talking about how Serbs never got the justice they deserve in Yugoslavia, then Milosevic with revoking the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina and there you go .... every nation in ex-yugo felt the Serbian danger and they wanted all out almost at the same time.


This idea of blaming things around to everyone it is very immoral. We all know that Serbs fought against nations who did not have solid states, organized and trained armies, and organized state structures Serbia had as they were new states and in an array.

Serbia inhereted every state structure from ex-Yugoslavia and as such it was its duty to retain itself and people it influenced from engaging in such an ugly war and set an example of civilty and peace.

But Serbia preferred to send its paramilitary and fuel the conflict instead of bringing everyone together to solve the problems.

Serbia considered itself the leader of ex-yugo, a more mature, better organised and wise entity that every other nation could look upon and model, but it behaved like a thug, and Serbs everywhere in ex-Yugo got the memo and commited the attrocities that we all know about. Of course, the other nations would follow, as they saw how effective Serbs were in reaching their goals.

>>Brammertz also said that he “maintains optimism that Mladić will be arrested before the Tribunal closes its doors.”>>

OK, so -- why are you remaining optimistic? do you expect him to just fall from the sky? i mean not to be cynical, but YOU are going to have to take the initiative or the trial will never take place. that is your job. there has to be a deadline, there have to be consequences. not cooperation towards cooperation towards... that's all one big circle. but isn't that obvious?

it is true that despite everything we know, he still has to face trial. so let's put him on trial. serge, please get to work!

robert0
frisco

>>> Do we have a direct quote of Brammertz saying "punished"? That's
an awfully bold and irresponsible thing to say, and I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that there are no quotations in this story.

2 questions, Mr. ugly american: writing on company time? for how much salary? just asking :))

roberto
(roberto, 18 February 2010 21:03)

Don't you pride yourself in knowing everything? Then you should know the answer to that since you seem to have inside info.

Mladic yes.. ok but why not Hans-Dietrich Genscher, Warren Zimmermann et al

Catch Mladic, means to face the past. That's something Serbian Society is not ready for.
Maybee one day new serb generation will not accept that's all Anti-Serb-conspiracy, ask why these heroes are accused of war crimes and how their fathers 'protected' Serb heritage in Para-groups.
(Ali Baba, 18 February 2010 10:27

When the Bosniaks put their people up for a proper trials then please come back to me and then I’ll join the chorus for Mladic’s arrest, but don’t try this business of “I’m holier than thou and you have blood on your hands”. Save this for your kids.

The only reason Bosniaks are p..off is that the Serbs did not allow a repeat of WW2. Go and demand your Croatian allies arrest their war criminals – they burnt your people alive in their homes in central Bosnia, but not a peep to be heard from you guys. Just like the US it the Serbs fault they started it all even the killing between Croats and Bosniaks.


(roberto, 18 February 2010 18:23)

Now Roberto you go and put you foot down and demand that Brammertz does something or else you get very angry!


(Predrag, 18 February 2010 23:38)

What you fail to realise that it was your Croats had planned all of this before the Serbs even picked up a pen – perhaps you should read Tudjman’s statements such as “I’m glad my wife is not a Serb or Jew” or his other jems relating to the cleansing of Croatia of Serbs – they are really worth reading.

If we Serbs did not start 4 wars there would be nothing left for us today, but we have kept the best parts of the old Yugoslavia while the rest is a financial scrap heap that the EU can look after. You’re very lucky it was the Serbs that threw you out and not one of the ultra nationalist Croats roaming in those regions – they would have executed your entire family for being “racially impure”.

Naser Oric was actually acquitted by the Appeals Chamber.

If correctly reproduced, Prosecutor Brammertz statement is extremely disturbing from a legal point-of-view. Asking that fugitives from justice be rendered to the ICTY is one thing, claiming that they need to be punished is simply unacceptable. General Mladic is still presumed innocent until proven otherwise, and the fact that a top prosecutor seems to dismiss this basic legal principle can only cast doubts on the impartiality of ensuing trial proceedings. Considering the ICTY's current record of violations of the basic human rights of the accused, this is a particulalrly deplorable statement.

Do we have a direct quote of Brammertz saying "punished"? That's an awfully bold and irresponsible thing to say, and I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that there are no quotations in this story.

Brammertz's statement was not reproduced correctly in this report. The word "punished" never appeared in the interview he gave to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ). The word "punished" appears in this story as a result of really sloppy reporting by FoNet, or a bad translation.

What Brammertz actually told the FAZ in his interview was that: (a.) arresting Mladić and Hadžić and bringing them to trial remains a top priority of the UN tribunal; (b.) the tribunal is working closely with the Serbian authorities on this and expects results; (c.) Mladić and Hadžić cannot expect to avoid prosecution simply by waiting for the end of the tribunal's mandate; (d.) the UN Security Council is already working on a residual mechanism which will be put in place to enable an international trial of Mladić and Hadžić to be held, even if their arrest comes after the UN war crimes tribunal officially closes.

Those who want to check can find the original FAZ interview with Brammertz at:

###

# If Roberto is so omnipotent and all-knowing, maybe he should lead the investigation... or maybe he just prefers to be a tired, old windbag on the sidelines?
(Jason, 18 February 2010 20:20)


2 questions, Mr. ugly american: writing on company time? for how much salary? just asking :))

roberto

." I should know, I was forced to leave my home with my family when i was 10 because my mother was a Croat even though my dad was Serb."
(Predrag, 18 February 2010
23:38)

========================

At the age of 10 the only thing you know is what your parent tells you and clearly you have chosen the parent to believe. What does your father tell you, if he is still around?

You see, kids of mixed marriages usually choose a side and become more radical than the pure blooded ones. This seems to be true in your case as well.

>>Brammertz also said that he “maintains optimism that Mladić will be arrested before the Tribunal closes its doors.”>>

OK, so -- why are you remaining optimistic? do you expect him to just fall from the sky? i mean not to be cynical, but YOU are going to have to take the initiative or the trial will never take place. that is your job. there has to be a deadline, there have to be consequences. not cooperation towards cooperation towards... that's all one big circle. but isn't that obvious?

it is true that despite everything we know, he still has to face trial. so let's put him on trial. serge, please get to work!

robert0
frisco

Will this mechanism only be implemented for Mladic or any other outstanding suspects?

If it is only there for Mladic I suspect it won't be there at all as this is proof of the witch hunt you are on.

Catch Mladic, means to face the past. That's something Serbian Society is not ready for.
Maybee one day new serb generation will not accept that's all Anti-Serb-conspiracy, ask why these heroes are accused of war crimes and how their fathers 'protected' Serb heritage in Para-groups.

"Mladić must be punished"

Ok! But who is going to punish NATO for the killing of thousands of Serbs and the destruction of an entire country?

I hope that whatever mechanism is set in place will punish all those western politicians and diplomats who broke up Yugoslavia for political and financial reasons and who ignited the flames of war.

# If Roberto is so omnipotent and all-knowing, maybe he should lead the investigation... or maybe he just prefers to be a tired, old windbag on the sidelines?
(Jason, 18 February 2010 20:20)


2 questions, Mr. ugly american: writing on company time? for how much salary? just asking :))

roberto

Dream on mr.inquisitor.

Russia will not allow another round of these stalinist show-trials. So suggest the anglo-american NATO-crowd in their ridiculous mason-wigs to start secret inquisitions in the american torture-gulags like Guantanamo and Abu ghraib...

Good luck.

Mladic should never face a Hauge judge - even if his alleged crimes are true, there should be impartial justice, try all war criminals, from all sides, equally - and the Hauge is a complete failure in that regard. And may the non-arrest of Mladic always be a thorn in the West's side for their miserable failures in Bosnia.

Brammertz: Mladić must be punished

Wow. I find this a little bit unsettling. Although I personally feel that Mladic has a certain degree of guilt related to the wars, I am certainly not up to the task of playing judge, jury and executioner without a trial. This sort of altruistic, megalomaniac statement is truly scary. The great bastions of due process and well established legal systems are being eroded faster than we can witness.
It is bad enough that in the past 50+ years of global policing we have witnessed only the 'losing side' being taken to court over war crimes, but now we're witnessing that the winning side is determined to asses the outcome prior to any such court hearings.
It is certainly true that Hitler's forces and policies were horrible moments in human history, however, the Allies were not without their own evils. The allies were unpunished for them.
Consider that Hitler and co were publicly denounced for their actions, one of them was the relentless bombing of London town, but the Allies were not even spoken to with a harsh tongue for the obliteration of Dresden.
Similarly the Serbian forces and politicos are the only publicized 'evil' in the FJ wars, yet a clear reasonable thinking person notices the similarities that were happening on both sides, and that were supplanted from the outside.
Again, I am not in any which way defending the actions of Mladic and co, but am trying to appeal to the logical thinking minds that have read this statement and wondered how one can go so far as this without exposing a plethora of biases, biases which likely are there to protect oneself and hide their own past and present actions.

A person with no fear of the truth does not need to go on the attack.

I would have fully agreed with a statement that went along the lines of "Mladic must be tried", or better still, "All evil doers must be tried", but this is total one-sided egotistical bleating.

Now, further from the point. I wonder if western European society would welcome a honest reparations style trial, one in which the truths are openly exposed (even though we all know many of them) about their thieving pasts. I wonder how many an illustrious European and American's wealth was derived from the colonialism and slave trades that made their nations wealthy. I wonder if any one of their legal systems would have the huevos to, not only admit their faults and wrong doings, but also to restore and repay what they stole, killed, raped, and pillaged? My guess is 0, and I'm certain here that I'm very close to the actual answer.
When hypocrisy reigns over our collective amnesiac societies we are free to point fingers elsewhere.

Did I miss something like a trial perhaps? Has Mladic been proven guilty without his day in court? Is this a fair trial? I thought it was innocent UNTIL proven guilty? Why would anyone expect anything less from this mockery of a court set up to cover the rears of western " leaders."

Peggy if you actually followed the ICTY cases you'd know that there are only 2 suspects remaing - Mladic for genocide amongst other crimes, and Hadzic for forced removal/ ethnic cleansing of Croats from theri homes in Croatia (something Serbs always tend to 'forget' about) and murder. You only think it's a which hunt because the ICTY has targetted more Serbs then all others combined. But you fail to realise that that's not because of a withch hunt but because that the Serbs initiated 4 wars in the region and tried to carve out an enthnically cleansed Greater Serbia. I should know, I was forced to leave my home with my family when i was 10 because my mother was a Croat even though my dad was Serb.

Catch Mladic, means to face the past. That's something Serbian Society is not ready for.
Maybee one day new serb generation will not accept that's all Anti-Serb-conspiracy, ask why these heroes are accused of war crimes and how their fathers 'protected' Serb heritage in Para-groups.
(Ali Baba, 18 February 2010 10:27

When the Bosniaks put their people up for a proper trials then please come back to me and then I’ll join the chorus for Mladic’s arrest, but don’t try this business of “I’m holier than thou and you have blood on your hands”. Save this for your kids.

The only reason Bosniaks are p..off is that the Serbs did not allow a repeat of WW2. Go and demand your Croatian allies arrest their war criminals – they burnt your people alive in their homes in central Bosnia, but not a peep to be heard from you guys. Just like the US it the Serbs fault they started it all even the killing between Croats and Bosniaks.


(roberto, 18 February 2010 18:23)

Now Roberto you go and put you foot down and demand that Brammertz does something or else you get very angry!


(Predrag, 18 February 2010 23:38)

What you fail to realise that it was your Croats had planned all of this before the Serbs even picked up a pen – perhaps you should read Tudjman’s statements such as “I’m glad my wife is not a Serb or Jew” or his other jems relating to the cleansing of Croatia of Serbs – they are really worth reading.

If we Serbs did not start 4 wars there would be nothing left for us today, but we have kept the best parts of the old Yugoslavia while the rest is a financial scrap heap that the EU can look after. You’re very lucky it was the Serbs that threw you out and not one of the ultra nationalist Croats roaming in those regions – they would have executed your entire family for being “racially impure”.

If Roberto is so omnipotent and all-knowing, maybe he should lead the investigation... or maybe he just prefers to be a tired, old windbag on the sidelines?

2 questions, Mr. ugly american: writing on company time? for how much salary? just asking :))

roberto
(roberto, 18 February 2010 21:03)

Don't you pride yourself in knowing everything? Then you should know the answer to that since you seem to have inside info.

Mladic yes.. ok but why not Hans-Dietrich Genscher, Warren Zimmermann et al

Don't you pride yourself in knowing everything? Then you should know the answer to that since you seem to have inside info.
(Peggy, 18 February 2010 23:40)

Clearly Roberto is one of these old horses who THINKS he knows everything and does not hesitate to remind EVERYONE of this. These are the most annoying type of people - the self-proclaimed "expert" on everything.

Roberto knows how to save Bosnia.

Roberto knows how to save Kosovo.

Roberto knows how to fix Serbia.

Roberto knows how to apprehend and prosecute Mladic.

His arrogance knows no bounds ...or... is it a cover up for a has-been who really never amounted to much to begin with?

All criminals should be punished doesn't matter where they come from !

Hey, Roberto, don't you think Jason has some time to himself? Don't you think he has breaks during the workday? Most people do. And what he does for a living, who he works for, and how much he earns is his business, not yours. As for you, I have read some of your posts, and they are all anti-Serb. You always point out the crimes, injustices, bad politicians of the Serbs, but never any of the same with other ethnicities. If anyone honestly believes that their ethnic group was clean, and only Serbs did bad things, is living in a cloud. Only when all sides are held accountable for their crimes and injustices, will there possibly be a chance for peace in the Balkans. BTW, S.F. used to be a great city, unfortunately if has evolved into a liberal fantasyland today, so anything that comes out of there a take with a little hesitance.

>>> Do we have a direct quote of Brammertz saying "punished"? That's
an awfully bold and irresponsible thing to say, and I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that there are no quotations in this story.

Ali Baba - I'm sure he's guilty, but he's still entitled to a fair trial (if there is such a thing). I think most Serbs wouldn't have a problem with mladic facing justice if war criminals from other sides were given the same treatment , i.e. Naser Oric and his buddies. Amazing how 3000+ Serbs around Srebrenica were murdered and only one person is convicted - Oric for 2 years. If all sides were treated equally I'm sure no Serb would deny anyone justice, but it seems that the process is biased!

hope that whatever mechanism is set in place will punish all those western politicians and diplomats who broke up Yugoslavia for political and financial reasons and who ignited the flames of war.
(mary walsh, 18 February 2010 11:29)

I believe the idea of Yugoslavia is more attractive than Yugoslavia itself. it was an unatural and inorganic entity, held together under a fake ideology - communism, and not mutual respect and common values.

As you see even in here, Serbs were itching to get back to Croats and Bosniaks for the ethnic conflict of WWII.

Slovenians felt they did not deserve to be bossed around by Serbs (as they felt more pro-Italo-Austrians than pan-sllavics) and Albanians had no intentions whatsoever to live under a brutal Serbian regime with a well documented past of anti-Albanian policies.

Tito managed to surpress all this past but after a few years of his death we had Serbian Academics come up with their famous nationalistic memorandum talking about how Serbs never got the justice they deserve in Yugoslavia, then Milosevic with revoking the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina and there you go .... every nation in ex-yugo felt the Serbian danger and they wanted all out almost at the same time.


This idea of blaming things around to everyone it is very immoral. We all know that Serbs fought against nations who did not have solid states, organized and trained armies, and organized state structures Serbia had as they were new states and in an array.

Serbia inhereted every state structure from ex-Yugoslavia and as such it was its duty to retain itself and people it influenced from engaging in such an ugly war and set an example of civilty and peace.

But Serbia preferred to send its paramilitary and fuel the conflict instead of bringing everyone together to solve the problems.

Serbia considered itself the leader of ex-yugo, a more mature, better organised and wise entity that every other nation could look upon and model, but it behaved like a thug, and Serbs everywhere in ex-Yugo got the memo and commited the attrocities that we all know about. Of course, the other nations would follow, as they saw how effective Serbs were in reaching their goals.

Do we have a direct quote of Brammertz saying "punished"? That's an awfully bold and irresponsible thing to say, and I'm a bit suspicious of the fact that there are no quotations in this story.

Naser Oric was actually acquitted by the Appeals Chamber.

If correctly reproduced, Prosecutor Brammertz statement is extremely disturbing from a legal point-of-view. Asking that fugitives from justice be rendered to the ICTY is one thing, claiming that they need to be punished is simply unacceptable. General Mladic is still presumed innocent until proven otherwise, and the fact that a top prosecutor seems to dismiss this basic legal principle can only cast doubts on the impartiality of ensuing trial proceedings. Considering the ICTY's current record of violations of the basic human rights of the accused, this is a particulalrly deplorable statement.

Brammertz's statement was not reproduced correctly in this report. The word "punished" never appeared in the interview he gave to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ). The word "punished" appears in this story as a result of really sloppy reporting by FoNet, or a bad translation.

What Brammertz actually told the FAZ in his interview was that: (a.) arresting Mladić and Hadžić and bringing them to trial remains a top priority of the UN tribunal; (b.) the tribunal is working closely with the Serbian authorities on this and expects results; (c.) Mladić and Hadžić cannot expect to avoid prosecution simply by waiting for the end of the tribunal's mandate; (d.) the UN Security Council is already working on a residual mechanism which will be put in place to enable an international trial of Mladić and Hadžić to be held, even if their arrest comes after the UN war crimes tribunal officially closes.

Those who want to check can find the original FAZ interview with Brammertz at:

###

." I should know, I was forced to leave my home with my family when i was 10 because my mother was a Croat even though my dad was Serb."
(Predrag, 18 February 2010
23:38)

========================

At the age of 10 the only thing you know is what your parent tells you and clearly you have chosen the parent to believe. What does your father tell you, if he is still around?

You see, kids of mixed marriages usually choose a side and become more radical than the pure blooded ones. This seems to be true in your case as well.