“Serbia cannot enter NATO with Kosovo”

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves,” daily Blic writes.

Sums the whole Kosovo issue and is a reflection of the only way Kosovo can legally be purged from Serbs and that is through Serbian consent that is why so many in the media and on forums such as these are trying to convince Serbs it is lost reiterating it's a done deal, think again ie Western Sahara.
Nato is not worth your soul nothing is worth your soul two thirds of the world is behind you the game is yours to lose or win.
Go for the win.

We should think about Eu/Nato and forget about Kosovo,Kosovo has never been our's
we only Invaded that Place thats all

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves”
--
Thank you Rogozin and thank you Russia. That's what we like to see, a bear showing its teeth. What are these sell-outs in the DS going to do? Trade Kosovo for NATO membership? Time to give ŠuNATOvac the boot and to replace him with a patriot.

Lets never forget NATO's contribution to Serbia. Check

http://www.kosovo.net/usce.jpg
http://www.russiablog.org/SerbianChurchBombedOut.jpg
http://photos.longjaunt.com/2008/05/07/belgrade_serbia/001.jpg
http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/march2006/150306clinton3.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2925772633_9da1e32439.jpg
http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/4/49/05_novi_sad.jpg
http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/03/69323320947e77066b5134314721213_MidCol.jpg

Yeah serbia doesnt need nato
for example austria and sweden are EU members and not part of Nato.
Joining only EU with kosovo is enough.

OK Russia we get the message, we don't need announcements every day.

If we tried to join NATO you would stop supporting us on Kosovo.

The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either.

can serbs read, this guy is right, forget the eu and nato, lean towards russia, u get beat up by a bully then u go and beg to be his friend.

Even Russia is realising that Serbia is not a reliable partner. Bad times ahead for Belgrade

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves,” daily Blic writes.


hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.

I see Russia could later change its stance on Kosovo and recognize their independence ! I urge Serbia to join NATO ! So Kosovo gets recognized fast and no more lobbying ! I support them and will support them! I also think serbia would benefit if they recognize Kosovo seriously Serbia can achieve much !

"and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato."
Kosovo-USA

There can never be peace with those who are trying to steal Serbian land.

Rogozin is completely right!

The problem with the world today, is that the masses are unable to speak for the majority and the government makes self interested decisions.

Prime minister has currently Prorogued our Goverment in Canada, see provided link.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/01/31/12687696.html

So most likely through some type of bribery and or arm twisiting, Serbia may just join NATO against the will of the citizens.

Democracy at it's finest!

This clearly shows that Serbian politicians have to listen to what foreign officials want them to do. I wonder whether they are aware how pathetic and irrelevant they are in the eyes of the world ???

“Serbia cannot enter NATO with Kosovo”

Hint hint from from Russia~ :D

Serbio, "please" do everything in order to become member of NATO.

What does Serbia stand to gain from joining NATO? A pledge to not be bombed again for 70+ days?

There is an old saying :sudden friendship, sure repentance, but we deal with an old friend here. We have been deceived and misled by a traditionally old friend in our history more than once. There was sometimes an excuse for such an act. We remember the I Serbian Uprising in 1804 ,when we were pushed to launch the armed uprising against Turks with a pledge of support , which was soon abandoned. We remember the St, Stephan Treaty 1878 when the old friend advocated for Great Bulgaria on Serbian territory. We will never forget 1949. No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999 . What about risky privatizations. This time a blackmail was put forward with a choice between: whether you take it or leave it ,you will repent.

Some albanian troll has taken my name and posted a ridiculous comment. Please ignore it.
I fully agree with Rogozin's comments, and I hope he keeps speaking and shaming Tadic and the yellows to behave like real Serbs, not like yellow lackeys.
NATO is an organization that has no business in Serbia.
Thanks for your clear and honest comments Mr. Rogozin, and keep on talking!!
Cheers!!
The real 'Dragan'

To my countryman Big Steve.

I never forget that my country is always the first to help when tragedies strike all around the world it USA that donated the most money, that appropriates the most troops yo peacekeeping missions, that leads the world in innovation and development. Without USA and EU this would ne a backwards world take for example the earthquake in Haiti. Where were the Russians and the Chinese? Or the Indians and Arabs? Even when tsunami hit southeast Asia who ran to their help?
Therefore, )before you citizen USA look in the mirror and say something, anything, then you will realize if it was not for US you'd be speaking German and have a long Arabic beard.

Serbia is really LOST!

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.
(Ljokimalija, 6 February 2010 19:26)

Sure how should they make the check payable to Milosevic or ?!?!?!

Stop with this talk that NATO came for no reason really its just pathetic. Why always Serbia is the one to be picked.

Many people here make Serbia to be a victim in all Yugoslav wars and NATO, the rest as bad guys.

To me this does not add up.

Serbian Friends you have a choice NATO =EU or Russia = being like East Germany, Poland till 1989 etc.

You think Serbia will be rich due to transit fee from the pipe oil its funny Ukrain has been transit country for many years i dont see them improving.

Face it all Serbia is a small peace in the big game, you cant offer anything just because they want you to join nato does not mean we cant live without you.

So please stop pretending that we are begging and oh pleas join NATO. nato was fine without Serbia and will be if you dont but Serbia will suffer in long run.

IMF will push for no loans, EU no more subsedises just like greec you have huge public sector if you dont get loans you would drown.

I been in Serbia many times in last 4 years and I know the situation first hand, poverty and standard of living and once you go out of Belgrad and go south o boy o boy 150Euros its monthly salary (i.e Jagodina, Nis, ...)

And please dont mind the people who come here to speak most are nationalist living abrod Serbians are quit nice people and the ones in Serbia most speak the truth about their conditions.

"The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either."
(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)

=======================

So let's join NATO za inat ha Bganon?
What are you trying to say with this? How do you propose we stand up to Russia?

We had 78 days of bombing and you did not write something like this for the Americans and yet here you respond in such a provocative manner when Russia tells us what they will and won't accept.
They have every right to react any way they want if we make such a move. What do you want from Russia? Unconditional support? We can turn our back on them by joining NATO and they still have to support us in Kosovo?

There is a reaction to every action and without Russia's support we would've already said goodbye to Kosovo long ago. Show a little gratitude instead of flexing that muscle we don't have.

So I ask you again. What do you propose Serbia does now? You seem to have the answers.

Rote I'm afraid I don't have a problem with logic's views, so I don't see why you are painting yourself as some kind of noble crusader and what that has to do with anything.

Tell me one thing, if you have to choose between Russian interests and Serbian ones which do you choose. Case closed. Let me inform you that while I respect Russia, I will pick Serbia ahead of Russia 100 times out of 100.

Best to take your own advice and the same goes towards your government. Russia spoke at the UN and other places about its 'principled' support of Serbia on Kosovo. All of a sudden now we have this.

This latest statement is an escallated viewpoint, a new one, that Lavrov has not expressed before and I'm disappointed and not the only one upset by this language.

You should be against such language of your government, while supporting the Serbian people's view not to support NATO.

But if you personally also want to tell us what to do, thanks but we will make our own minds up.

One more thing, this move will strengthen the anti Russian lobby within the 'democratic' camp of Serbian politics. The democratic camp will maintain its stranglehold on Serbian politics (for good or evil). In effect statements like these make it more likely that Serbia will lose Kosovo.

Here the exit strategy for Russia

hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
(Kosova-USA, 6 February 2010 12:13)
--
Couldn't agree more with your comments my friend.
You nailed it.

An now comes the price for the Russian support to Serbia's position.

You should be condemning it Rote, those kinds of statements most certainly do NOT contribute to a close working relationship between our two governments.
(Matthew, 6 February 2010 22:54)
--
I have to disagree with both you and bganon Matthew. Russia has been far too soft on these issues while NATO has been agressively pushing non-compliant states into its sphere. That is wrong and I'm glad Russia has made the choice so clear. Are we going to pursue NATO membership (as some in our government are working towards) or do we need to make it clear that Kosovo comes first? If Russia does not take this stance, we'll be a NATO member before we know it. Montenegro is well on its way already. With Serbia, we need to reject it much more aggressively.

Now lets watch what happens in the Ukraine carefully. The future may lie there.

Some commentators here and everywhere accused Kosovo Albanians to be "servant" of the USA, NATO and that they have to listen what they "masters" have to say. But It seems that Serbia is in a much worse condition. If the Russians and Serbs would be really in a brotherhood and firdnship as many of you claim to be, there would be other ways to make Belgrade clear that Russia doesn't want an approche of Serboa to the NATO.

The USA have other ways to make Prishtina it stands clear, not in the public and over media and especially not with this speech that sounds more after blackmailing that advising. For my understanding this doen't sounds after friendship and brotherhood but after a servant and master realtion between Russia and Serbia.

Zoran Russia is telling us join NATO and lose Kosovo. Its not 'lose our support'. We in Serbia are a soverign state and we take decisions in Belgrade, not Moscow or Washington.

Just because you support the specific policy it amazes me that you can't see the problem here for sovereign democracy. You don't trust the elite in Serbia to do the right thing, you don't support a referendum (the Serbian people) to vote on NATO, but you support the Russian elite's knowing 'Serbia's mind' And yet you (and others talk about what the Serbian people want). Fine, then choose the people above the Russian government! If we decide, it is OUR decision, not because we are being told what to do.

Dan I repeat we are being told enter NATO and lose Kosovo, that is not a friendly suggestion. That is very serious indeed. It is a new approach that I do not welcome.

Rote you say that NATO 'is a totally hostile block' to Russia. That is very strange indeed considering the cooperation and agreements between Russia and NATO. In fact the only falling out in recent times between the two was instigated by NATO ie NATO moved away from Russia, not the other way round. You could have fooled me!

I'm also sorry that your government chose to flex its muscles on our own elected representatives. That was a deliberately calculated move, these things can be done in private. I can't read the text you posted on Lavrov but if you want to send a link showing me he said the same thing before, please do.

Frankly I find it astonishing that if Serbia does something you don't like you call it treason. Serbia is not a vassal state of Russia, it has responsiblity to its own citizens, not the Russian government. Do you understand that?

I am surprised with these realistic comments from the Russian representative regarding Serbia's future integration ambition to Europe and its stance to Kosova/a.
Serbia has to face the new reality either joining EU/NATO and recognise Kosova/o independence or isolate itself further with the prospect of joining Russian Federation.
It would be in Serbia's best interest to recognise Kosova/o independence, enter in new friendship agreement with Kosova/a , free movement of goods and people between the two countries, European standards for minorities living in Kosova/o and Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvegja and there will be everlasting peace and stability in the region.
That is how I see it anyway.

Lets never forget NATO's contribution to Serbia. (Zoran, 6 February 2010 11:49) It is tragic but can you explain why it happened to the innocent Serbs without biased. I guess it was just one of those unprovoked attack that boomeranged back to Serbia. If Serbia wants to join and be a satellite state to Russia more power to you. Just remember why the rest of the eastern countries when they had a chance to escape they ran from the Russia. I really dont think the Kremlin has in any way changed its operation of operandi. Russia is trying to separate Serbia and make it so dependent on it. On so many levels with all the pull strings leading right back to the Kremlin. Maybe in 30 to 40 years Serbia will finally come to their senses and realize they were very unproductive wasted years.

Serbia is a very small country that wants to play a big complicated diplomatic game.You cannot accuse the west left and right and yet want to be a member of the EU.You cannot seek Russia's support and yet want to be a NATO member.On Friday Russia declared NATO as the biggest national threat. I don't think that Tadic has any illusions that he can outsmart the West or Russia for that matter. But he can certainly play the Serbian public. He made it much easier for himself to get rid of the Kosovo issue.Asking the ICJ to give an opinion on Kosovo's independence was smart. Whatever the opinion, he as a politician is a winner.Although without asking the ICJ the Serbs could use the illegality card forever,Tadic goes ahead and asks the court to give an opinion.The same court that is controlled and financed by the countries that made kosovo independent. Serbs gave him full support for that
move( I give credit to a serb poster here that from the beginning understood what was happening,VanDerSerb or smthing like that).Pro Serbia opinion and Tadic is a hero,against Serbia or a vague opinion and you can keep blame it on the West.It will not last long,Serbia will have to pick a side.What some people call neutrality very soon might turn to isolation.

RE; Tadic Strategy is Correct

The neutral position that Serbia;s current foreign policy is the correct one.

Russia has become a good trading partner but the US is also expanding investment in Serbia and this must continue. Serbia never was, is and never will be a satellite nation to Russia.

Russia has shown throughout history to be an unreliable partner;

(1) Alexander Ypsialanti led the uprisings and promised military support in the 18th century to free the Balkans from the Ottomans. The Greeks were slaughtered while the Russian military support failed and was bogged down in Romania.

(2) Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were marching to free Constantinopole in the first Balkan war only again to be stopped by the Russians at the urging of the French and British.

(3) Russia backed Serbia during the outbreak of WWI but no help was forthcoming as the massive Austro-Hungarian Empire invaded. Serbia recieved some help from the French, the only substantive help was from the Pasha of Albania who allowed safe passage of the Serbian army and refugees eventually leading them to Corfu.

(4) Yveginy Primakov urged support for Serbia during the NATO bombings. Serbia again was double crossed by Russia as Yeltsin emissary Cheromydian (sp) withdrew Russian support.

(5) Russia in a show of hyprocricy marched in with Tanks in Pristina only to have them withdraw immediatly at the threat of US reaction.

Serbia can not enter EU with Kosova either.

Logic

Thank you for answering VELJA twice ! I did the same with bganon today. But best if Serbs talk themselves to their renegades. Yes if we strive to we will find dark spots in our history. Especially if we want them to be found. But if we are objective enough we will recall much bigger and brighter events in the past. If today’s Russia is responsible for the events of 1804 then we may go too far. Be sure there will be a crazy Russian to say that Gavril Prinsip with his revolver has destroyed the Great Russian Empire. ( To say nothing that Russia was shocked when you reelected Boris. ) And this is exactly what NATO , the Croats and Albanians are ready to pay for.

What if one say that we have always fought on the same side ? What if we say that outside the USSR two Yugoslavian armies mostly composed of the Serbs were the only real forces on the continent to help us against the Nazi ? (We don’t believe in fairy tales about other partisan movements). What if we say that in the last two decades we had the same fate and that in 1999 Russia itself was an occupied country with a Boris of our own ? What if we recall how PM Primakov has turned his plane back above the Atlantic when he learned of the bombings ? What if we recall how the current President of Ingushetia seized the airport ? What if we suggest that it’s not Serbia pushing Russia to stand for Kosovo but it’s Russia and common Serbs make your elites imitate struggle ? I guess our ancestors would not approve a split between us and best thing we can do is to stand against provocateurs of all kinds as firm as you do it dear Logic. Thanks a lot !

Bganon and Peggy settle down. The last we need is in-fighting.
I personally think that it is good that Rogozin has said this. The Serbian people (as always)need a good clip over the ear to read the writing on the wall. This discussion of joining NATO is a private initiative by SuNATOvac and a few others. Serbia neither has the money to join such an organization nor do we have the menfolk who can be sacrificed for Af-Pak and possibly Iran. Oh and did i forget to mention that NATO bombed Serbia in 99 and did nothing whilst terrorists terrorised and plundered and desecrated our holy sites. Russia would back us to the hilt over Kosovo if there was a patriotice government in Belgrade as opposed to the current regime.

So Zoran we should not listen or trust what our people want in a referendum and we should not listen to our government either. We don't trust democracy! And yet according to you the Russian government is above the Serbian government and the Serbian people? We should trust them! Thank you Russia. Hah, thats a joke isn't it? Russia is suffering from the same disease of democracy or lack of it, as all the other countries in the international system. Frankly I find it embarassing to see you on bended knee in thanks for people in a system that by its very nature is laughing at you.

Dragan as usual you give yourself away. I don't doubt that you believe in what you say but Freud would find your style telling. You talk about the logical comments of those you support and in the next breath use emotion and not reason. No amount of grovelling Dragan will gain Russian favour, they are interested in what we can do for them. The only question is how much would you be prepared to give? You don't see it but thank god Serbs are not that guillable.

Zoran Yes, I don't particularly believe in democracy but I know that our elected officials are afraid of their people. I trust the elite of another country even less, because we can't influence them. So even though I think a referendum on NATO is a waste of time it is preferable to have our own people to decide than a foreign government.

Why shouldn't we have a referendum on EU? What has the EU to do with this topic? To use your (unhelpful) logic if we don't have a referendum on NATO then why should we have one on the EU? Great argument Zoran, not very constructive though.

Peggy I understand your position but do you understand mine? Serbia must go in the direction that benefits her most. The mistake would be to tie the mast to one side and then be exploited by that one side. Serbia is not Jugoslavija, but it has a duty to its citizens to do the best it can.

As you say 'nobody gets unconditional support' Russia / USA / EU is no different.

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.

Conditioning, conditioning; where is Mr. Jeremic? He has been convincing all around that he does his best to preventing new recognitions of Kosova, by using his “brilliant” brain (ideas). However, according to Mr. Rogozin’s statement this was just a bluff of Mr. Jeremic. In other words Mr. Jermic does nothing but deceives Serbian opinion. Proclaiming readiness to joining EU and NATO euphorically, being aware of such a stance of its bigger ally, leads to an ambiguity which belongs to history; no one is so dump to fall into a trap by such a demagogy. Of course, except the random citizen the only victim to be required to believe it.
By the way, the language Mr. Rogozin uses in this occasion make you consider him as a member of the Serb Radical Party!!

Serbia can not enter EU with Kosova either.

oh what a price demanded from serbia, not to enter nato.

russia is a serious country, therefore it takes serious sutanovac.

but russia shouldn´t do so, as no one else does so. not serbia, not the president (bypassing the first russian base around him and playing it via interior ministry), nor his own party (generals he fires strart making careers).

this is all a virtual discussion, started by a politically dead, to reanimate his political career.

the only non-virtual question is, when will DS give up it´s dream and big lie of european integration. neither nato nor eu are realistic goals, who´s gonna say it first?

But if you personally also want to tell us what to do, thanks but we will make our own minds up.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 02:05)
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Who represents our minds? The Serbian people or the anti-Russian lobby? Even a referendum would be pointless regarding NATO membership as it would be rejected overwhelmingly. There would be more logic having one on EU membership.

Who is telling us what to do? Russia is just giving us a clear choice, join NATO and lose our support. Why should they support us? NATO has agressively expanded eastwards after promising it wouldn't. NATO is responsible for the conflict in Georgia and the destruction of Serbia. The only people telling us what to do are those in the EU and NATO, not Russia.
==
One more thing, this move will strengthen the anti Russian lobby within the 'democratic' camp of Serbian politics. The democratic camp will maintain its stranglehold on Serbian politics (for good or evil). In effect statements like these make it more likely that Serbia will lose Kosovo.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 02:05)
--
In that case the DS will lose Kosovo for us and not Russia. With Russia's support we have already won and we just need to maintain that position but DS policy is weakening it. What good has EULEX's deployment achieved? They are now actively working towards weakening Serbian control over the province. Who is responsible for that? Russia or the DS? Who's agenda is it? Russia's or the NATO's?

It is fairly clear who is helping us here. Thank you Russia!

bganon, 6 February

“However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....”

Shame on you ! How could you write this and how dare you to doubt us ! If you look at what is going on the last two years you will see that common Russians were shocked and disorientated by reelecting Boris Tadic – a man with a Russian name and a Western mentality. We swallowed this pile and remained your friends. I like Boris but he has only once visited Moscow as a President. Without our damned support he would never enjoy this Presidency and what do we have instead ? Can you imagine Nikolic working for NATO ? And now you complain that Rogozin has reminded you the words said long ago by FM Lavrov. We really can support you only until you resist and we cannot be better Serbs than you are. So what is the news ?

Yesterday Kozunin was more diplomatic but Rogozin is a Russian hawk and so he behaves. And dear “bganon” best if you ask yourself why should the Russians all of a sudden got so worried about Serbia’s NATO prospects. And if you do so you will find a lot of reasons for us to do so. Yet we are not so blind not to see the difference between the Western minded Serbian elites and the rest of the people. And so we warn youê elites that this time Tito’s Middle Of The Road Policy won’t work and you will have to open your eyes for the reality. As simple as that !

Another reason is that NATO is in it’s climax period demoralized with permanent losses. They have already lost Russia , Ukraine , Georgia , Burma , N.Korea , Iran , China , Afghanistan , Sudan , Somalia , Yemen , Pakistan , the whole of the Central Asia and Latin America , Turkey , Iraq , Azerbaijan ect.ect. Even in Kosovo they are deadlocked. They had to close their missiles deployment in Poland and Chekhia and bury their NABUCCO dream. So they need at least one success and this is why they try to pull you to NATO before a normal nationalist Serb is elected. And so we warn the elite of yours not to pretend to be naive.

My Best Regards !

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.
(Ljokimalija, 6 February 2010 19:26)
The only apology NATO owes is to the Kosovo people for stopping before they got an unconditional surrender and placing the country in this quagmire it is in now.
78 should have been 100 and I think that both would be far ahead of the place they are today.

hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
(Kosova-USA, 6 February 2010 12:13)
you havent been keeping up with your reading.america is very nervous about the ICJ decision so it looks like they are going to force the situation in northern kosmet.Many countries are uncomfortable with what happened and is happenning in Kosmet.God bless Kosmet.

>>No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999

Veto on what sunshine? Attack was illegal never got Ok from Un.
So not placing veto on something never up for vote is worse than attacking our country illegally and killing thousands, which is what Nato did?
Even as troll you're not very good.

Military agreements and alliances led to the domino effect that brought all the great powers into the war in WWI. Have we in the Balkans not learned a single thing over the last century?

The very existence of NATO is a global threat to the peace and security of the world, especially when left to act unilaterally and WITHOUT the consent or approval of the UN.

NATO is a dangerous rogue organization, spiraling out of control with no real purpose except to serve as the bludgeon of the West.

“The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)”

I was thinking the exact same thing too bganon. I don’t think it’s wise for the Russia government to start putting conditions onto Kosovo.

“Shame on you ! How could you write this and how dare you to doubt us ! If you look at what is going on the last two years you will see that common Russians were shocked and disorientated by reelecting Boris Tadic…(Rote, 6 February 2010 19:10)”

Don’t worry Rote, the Russian and Serbian\Montenegrin people themselves remain extremely close regardless of any statements our governments make.

However, I’m going to agree with bganon here, do NOT put conditions on our friendship and most certainly DO NOT threaten our sacred historical homeland over momentary political needs. We are the BRIDGE between East and West, never forget our place in region. Even Stalin did not dictate to us in such a manner.

I know it must have been insulting for us to be in discussions with NATO for the last few years (which I, like most Serbs opposed), but for your government to speak this way publically on the eve of the ICJ ruling is just plain insulting. You should be condemning it Rote, those kinds of statements most certainly do NOT contribute to a close working relationship between our two governments.

I would encourage Serbia not to join either the EU or NATO.
And as an American, I am disgusted by my country's anti-Serb stance, and recognizing independent Kosovo. I'm sure we will gain much from befriending the Albanians.

I would remind all these so-called Elites to remember the Kosovo curse of Prince Lazar. Be it a reminder of the blood oath all Serbs have:

Whoever is a Serb and of Serb birth,

And of Serb blood and heritage,

And comes not to fight at Kosovo,

May he never have the progeny his heart desires,

Neither son nor daughter!

May nothing grow that his hand sows,

Neither dark wine nor white wheat!

And let him be cursed from all ages to all ages!

Peggy so you were one of those that thought that we should accept terms at Ramboullet?

You asked people then, 'what do you expect us to do in standing upto NATO'?

Well Peggy, tell me what is the point of having any policies on anything at all?

Whilst you are at it tell me would you accept any and every demand from Russia in support for kosovo? I'm genuinely interested how much you would give up.

You would like me to condemn NATO, a decade after the bombing? I don't understand, I have consistently condemned war crimes since the very beginning of the wars no matter who committed them, including NATO. And I don't support NATO membership. So the problem is where exactly - other than these statements?

What would I do? Er I would expect our allies not to threaten us. If they don't want to be our friends then we will have to be smart and consider other options.

Rote - thank you and great comments.
Peggy, Zoran and rest of the logical Serbs - great comments.

bganon,
Please take off your Otpor (funded by Madeline Albright) scarf just for a second and try to think logicaly. What in God's name has Rogozin said that is so offensive to you? Seriously, the man is just saying the obvious truth - if you decide to join NATO after all we have done for you, you will lose our support. Clear as day, and very fair. I would not expect Russia to keep supporting us if we are stupid and treasonous enough to join NATO after they almost destroyed Serbia and stole 15% of our territory. You reap what you sow, and Serbia is not Bulgaria, so let's keep it that way. What you and other Otpor types need to realize is this: if it wasn't for Russia, Kosovo is lost!!
Get that through your heads. Once again, thank you Russia, we Serbs are very greatful and we will never forget!! This government is not one that was elected by the people, but one that was engineered into power with bizarre alliances by the US, let's hope the next one is patriotic and reflects better the views of the Serbian people.
Cheers!!

“Please take off your Otpor (funded by Madeline Albright) scarf [target sign] just for a second and try to think logicaly…”

Hilarious considering Optor came out in droves with those target signs to place on their heads while they stood on targeted bridges in protest against the NATO bombing, putting their very lives at risk to oppose NATO (those traitors, ha ha).

BTW, anyone with one of those signs for sale, I will pay good money for one.

“if it wasn't for Russia, Kosovo is lost!!”

Personally I think we have a strong case based in international law and ethics. I most certainly hope our side’s case is not based solely on Big Power politics.

“private talks gave no results. Though you’re right best if we solve our problems without encouraging our rivals. (Rote Kapelle, 7 February 2010 07:28)”

Something certainly stinks Rote, I agree it appears something happened behind the scenes that we’re not aware of. I do hope it’s nothing serious and encouraging our rivals is my main concern as well.

It’s just a damn strange thing to say since we all hate NATO. Hell, polls show we love Kosovo far more than even the EU and if we had to pick between the two, the overwhelming majority would choose Kosovo. But NATO? Seriously, why even bring it up?

I think it’s more of a message to the EU and the US that Russia is re-asserting herself in Europe. However, I still do not like being treated like a vassal state, and that sort of language is going to alienate the average Serb. We all love Russians and Russia, but we do have an issue with inat as Peggy pointed out.

So far, it’s been a win\win for both our States. Russia, at no real political cost, gets to reassert herself on the world stage, and Serbia gets some backing in her quest to retain her homeland.

If Russia wants us to give promises to firmly join her camp, I think it’s only fair for Russia to take some political risks on the Kosovo issue as well.

Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
Kosova-USA

Keep dreaming! Russia needs to justify its liberation of Abschazia and South Ossetia so only if the West recognizes these two Russia might do the same with Kosovo. And the West won't. However, should Serbia join NATO Russia might get upset and recognize that there is a black hole in south Europe by the name of Kosovo. Besides exclude the norhtern parts of Kosovo which will never join Pristina. Its well integrated in Serbia and will reamain so.

There is an old saying :sudden friendship, sure repentance, but we deal with an old friend here. We have been deceived and misled by a traditionally old friend in our history more than once. There was sometimes an excuse for such an act. We remember the I Serbian Uprising in 1804 ,when we were pushed to launch the armed uprising against Turks with a pledge of support , which was soon abandoned. We remember the St, Stephan Treaty 1878 when the old friend advocated for Great Bulgaria on Serbian territory. We will never forget 1949. No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999 . What about risky privatizations. This time a blackmail was put forward with a choice between: whether you take it or leave it ,you will repent.
(Velja, 6 February 2010 11:44)

Do we come to a table where the feast is almost over, feed on scraps or do we endure and be the first guest at a new feast?

In the first uprising we are as much to blame for that as well, Count Sava Tekelija's
contradictory offer to France and later Austro-Hungary in which he mentions Russia as the only threat in the Balkans trickled to Karageorge’s foreign policy, even though Serbs still received the promised financial and diplomatic aid from the Russians. Thanks to the Russian arms Serbs were able to renounce the Icko peace and push for full independence from the Turks not just autonomy.
In 1812 after Napoleon's invasion of Russia things did drastically change and support was abandoned. Russian policy was focused on Russian defense and not Serbia's it's not rocket science.

By the San Stefano Treaty of 19 February (3 March), 1878, Serbia and Montenegro received full independence and significantly increased their territory. Exhausted by the war and unable to exclude Austrian interests and Serb-Greek objections to Vranje(my fathers lineage) and Macedonia(my mothers lineage), Russia agreed that a congress be organized in Berlin whereby the Treaty of San Stefano could be revised. The San Stefano fiction of Greater Bulgaria was never realized, and lived on paper for only three months. Do realize Bulgaria was more subservient to Russia than it's Serbian neighbor and thus was offered more.
As for 1949, the events that preluded certainly cannot be blamed on the Soviets we had just finished a World War and here was TITO knocking down US aircraft in his lust to take Trieste and push the Soviets into a confrontation with the west for the gain of his home republic, most Serbs today could not care less for communism, it was never a friend to Serbia just a leech treating it as a sacrificial lamb. Viewing the situation from a detached point of view Tito's actions worked tremendously in separating Serb opinion from the Soviet union and vice versa, should all the Serbs backed Russia when it organized the Serbian Communist party in Moscow and invaded would Serbia have lost so much in it's gullible sacrifice for brotherhood and unity. What the Russians were threatening in 1949 the so called ”Druze” did in 1974.
No veto being was excersiced by Russia in 1999, Velja your of the mark there this was not even a UN security council approved mission, it was the good offices of Russia that forbade the occupation of the rest of Serbia. Russia is in no way near incompetent as it was back then under Boris “Stolichnaya” Yeltsin.
By risky privatizations do you mean US steel in Smederevo etc? I see Russian investments overall as solid everyone needs energy and Serbia was made one of the most important junctions in this industry. In a perfect world we would own 100% of everything but reality does not allow for that, what we have received from Russia we need to be thankful for and not send mixed messages. Industry in Serbia will boom on the back of a favorable trade agreement with Russia which is attracting the Eu invest. What has the US and NATO done for Serbia but offer contradictions.
These examples are littered in our past and present itself before us now they also highlight our impatience to run before we learn to crawl or walk. Do we now join NATO and help them consolidate their illegal gains losing Kosovo which is blackmail, or do we keep doing what has been bearing fruits lately non alignment and diplomacy supported by Russia, China and most of the world's emerging economies. The advantages are just to numerous then to be locked away in a club that today is welcoming Serbs to sacrifice their soul. It is the time for strong leadership and unfortunately tinkering and dilly dallying with NATO membership sends a cowardly submissive message, things obviously can change but not to learn from the past is an expensive exercise just look at the last years in Ukraine. If the US changes it's stance on Kosovo and works in partnership with Russia, Serbia in my opinion can then seriously ask the question. As for the Russian minister's comments they seem to be directed at give the people the say, and we are not favoring this idea but it is your choice. When the US does this it is called Democracy funny to see some pro US supporters criticize this but that is Russia's approach nowadays welcoming change.

BGANON = “All of a sudden now we have this.”

*** It was quite expected cause NATO is a totally hostile block for us. As you know we have nothing against your EU membership and support you in all the international organizations. But NATO is a big irritating factor for us. We spend too much money and efforts to neutralize them and if you pretend not to know it we have to warn you of the sequences you must be ready. If you’re going to be another Bulgaria to betray us wherever you can it’s up to you. I feel sorry your government made us warn you publicly. Maybe it was done deliberate to strengthen the comprador camp in Serbia.

*** The exact Lavrov’s words were “Ìû íå ìîćåì áûòü áîëüøčìč ñåđáàìč , ÷åì ñàìč ñåđáû “ and this is what Rogozin repeated now. Russia always had doubts concerning how far your leaders are ready to go to defend Kosovo. And now that you exchange our relations for the anti Russian block we have to warn you that you take a risk of relying only on US goodwill … Anyway the ball is on your side and you are free to treat us the Bulgarians always did or stick to our friendship. I felt ashamed for Russia in 1999 but not today.

PEGGY - Thank you !

ZORAN - Thank you too !

MARK - Thanks a lot for your explanation of our worries !

MATTEW – We don’t put conditions. We just warn that any talks about NATO membership are insulting for us. It’s an open treason we don’t deserve. We don’t expect it from Serbia and just warn you that if you go this way it will affect our relations in the worst way. Moreover it’s not only Kosovo reintegration but other matters which will suffer. I am sure we were compelled to warn Tadic &Co openly cause private talks gave no results. Though you’re right best if we solve our problems without encouraging our rivals.

Cheers !

To Logic
Your perception is quite baffling. As for 1949, you do not differ the cause from the result. Tito and his atrocities were the aftermath of Tito’s Russian policy . Stallin was Tito’s tutor,idol and icon he worshipped. Tito was one of Stallin’s apostoles. After Tito broke away from Stallin’s communist bloc, and turning a renegade ,he got wings, became very powerful dictator and started dealing with his subjects who rendered disobedient. Serbian communists were mostly his victims. He founded a concentration camp, a prison compound on a island Goli otok,similar to Stallin’s Siberia camps. Many innocent people died there.

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either."
(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)

Bganon I understand where you are coming from but what blackmail? you have to question has Russia the right to say what it said?

It has invested millions, moved pipelines, fought for our behalf on Kosovo implemented favourable trade agreements which attract European investors on the premise that Serbia's adopted position would be non-aligned. Now they see Sutanovac all giddy talking NATO up, from Russia's perspective what do you see?
I see second thoughts and Russia in no way declared you must do this or that they are just saying we are here to help, are you going to make fools of us.
Jero needs to pull Sutanovac back a bit he has worked too hard to get this far.

Rote Kapelle thank you!
Nice comments.

Grow up Dragan the entire political system and its economic master - capitalism is governned by the primary principle SELF INTEREST. Just try to contradict this, I dare you.

Russia is not there to help Serbia alturistically. At best it is there to help itself and then help Serbia. At worst it is there to exploit Serbia just like all other states. I am talking about the political elites, not the people. It doesn't matter one jot that we have both met Russians who are friendly and inclined towards Serbs. I've met Americans who feel the same way towards Serbia (due to exposure to the Balkans, not ethnic ties) and look at their policy towards Serbia. Then we have countries that are much closer to us ethnically that have gone against us - some of our neighbours. So its not all about religion or ethnicity either is it? I've also met both Americans and Russians that don't know where Serbia is.

Of course Russia is telling us what to do, in no uncertain terms. It is telling us we must not join NATO. At least have the grace to admit this and say you agree. Well I don't support NATO membership either, but (and this is the very last time I will say this) I do not welcome being blackmailed by a foreign government on an issue of national importance.
It is OUR decision.

the only non-virtual question is, when will DS give up it´s dream and big lie of european integration. neither nato nor eu are realistic goals, who´s gonna say it first?
(raso, 6 February 2010 23:21)

Both EU and NATO membership are realistic, but Serbia must recognize Kosova/o first. If not, than I agree with you raso.

This Rogozin fellow is always so classy.

What must be completely unbearable to Serbs is that had Serbia signed up at Rambouillet, Kosovo would have been left as an autonomous unit within Serbia and there would have been permanent peace, with accelerated EU/Nato cooperation, etc. Kosovo would still have become independent eventually, as it is the will of the people. But it would have been so much neater.

Instead, to this day Serbia insists on her "right" to cause problems for Albanians. Perhaps a deteriorating standard of living might clear their minds? An alliance with Russia sounds good then.

Peggy I understand your position but do you understand mine? Serbia must go in the direction that benefits her most. The mistake would be to tie the mast to one side and then be exploited by that one side. Serbia is not Jugoslavija, but it has a duty to its citizens to do the best it can.

As you say 'nobody gets unconditional support' Russia / USA / EU is no different.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
=========================

Bgannon, I not only understand your point of view and I even agree with you. Where we disagree is which direction is the right one for Serbia to take. Which country do we trust more than the other.
Correct me if I am wrong but I sense that you trust US more and would rather hitch your wagon to them.

Serbia has no political muscle to flex so Serbia has to give certain concessions to the big guy. Since we both agree on that one as well, it's only a matter of which big guy do we bow to.

Just think for a moment where we would be without Russia's support. I know you said that Serbia has the law on her side but without Russia's influence we wouldn't even get a hearing at ICJ. What good is the law if we have no access to it?
Without Russia there would be no veto in the UN. What would stop Kosovo being recognised there as well?

Russia has put their money where their mouth is and invested in Serbia.

Now let's look at what the US has done for Serbia so far.
I think I will leave that list for you to write up.

Last week the Albanians were rattled threatening war, before that the Croatians today we see articles in Western media trying to fruitlessly debunk the obvious as myth, could this be a prelude of the Neocon machine falling apart at the seems?

Why all this fuss around here?

The man is right: Serbia cannot eneter Nato with (or without losing) Kosovo.

As well true is that Serbia cannot be the russian puppet as Russia wants and still keep Kosovo. (but that's something way beyond Rogozin's intellectual capabilities when making this kind of statements)

Bgannon you asked:

Peggy so you were one of those that thought that we should accept terms at Ramboullet?

You asked people then, 'what do you expect us to do in standing upto NATO'?

Well Peggy, tell me what is the point of having any policies on anything at all?

-----------------

I'll tell you what I would not do and that is spit in Russia's eye by even considering joining NATO.

After all Russia has done and is doing this would be a major insult. No, I don't believe that someone else should make policies for Serbia but Russia being upset about this is not making policies for Serbia. It's telling Serbia that this is a major insult which they will not tolerate.
Bgannon, is this the way you replay your friends for all they have done?
Russia is not there making decisions. Where do you see them do that but just like Serbia has every right to get upset with Montenegro for establishing diplomatic relations with "Kosova" Russia also has every right to be upset if we do this.

Nobody gets unconditional support and Serbia is no different.

'Personally I think we have a strong case based in international law and ethics. I most certainly hope our side’s case is not based solely on Big Power politics.'

Matthew, with all due respect, we had international law on our side from the beginning, but that didn't stop them from bombing us for 78 days around the clock did it?? They ignore international law if it doesn't suit them, and invoke it when it does. I think your viewpoint is a little naive to say the least. If it wasn't for the Russian veto, Kosovo would now be independent and Greater Albania would be a reality - that is just the way it is and if you believe little Serbia alone with law on its side is enough to win, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Bye the way, Otpor (your heroes) also destroyed and looted the Serbian parliament building. Albright was very proud.

Bganon, again you skirt the issue and avoid answering the question. What is it that Rogozin said that is so offensive to you? I guess Russia telling Serbia it's either Kosovo or NATO is too much for NATO lovers like SuNATOvac and his fans to hear because it will hurt them in the next election. Russia is not sticking its nose into Serbian affairs, or telling Serbs what to do, they are just stating their viewpoint - and that viewpoint happens to coincide with Serbia's self interests as it always has.
I also dislike your tone with regards to Russia, as if we don't have historic, ethnic and religious ties and it's all business between us. That's just not the case, Russian people genuinely feel a brotherhood with Serbia, you should meet some and talk to them and then you'll see. As for the US, Germany, UK... yes with them it's all business and interests. That's the difference, and that is why they will eventually abandon albanians at the drop of a hat. Russia will never do such a thing with Serbia.
A strong Russia means a strong Serbia. It seems you Otpor types just can't see that, but one day you will.
Cheers!!

Serbia has no political muscle to flex so Serbia has to give certain concessions to the big guy. Since we both agree on that one as well, it's only a matter of which big guy do we bow to.
(Peggy, 8 February 2010 02:39)
--
“At first we were confused. The East thought that we were West while the West considered us to be East. Some of us misunderstood our place in the clash of currents so they cried that we belong to neither side and others that we belong exclusively to one side or the other. But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us and here on earth--no one.” —St. Sava to Irenaeus, 13th Century

Zoran Russia is telling us join NATO and lose Kosovo. Its not 'lose our support'. We in Serbia are a soverign state and we take decisions in Belgrade, not Moscow or Washington.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Yes, this is a calculated move and a very good one. Russia has not taken any decision making away from Belgrade. It has given us a choice. Join NATO or keep Kosovo. What would you prefer?
==
Just because you support the specific policy it amazes me that you can't see the problem here for sovereign democracy.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Democracy? Even you admitted it doesn't exist and I agree.
==
You don't trust the elite in Serbia to do the right thing, you don't support a referendum (the Serbian people) to vote on NATO, but you support the Russian elite's knowing 'Serbia's mind' And yet you (and others talk about what the Serbian people want). Fine, then choose the people above the Russian government! If we decide, it is OUR decision, not because we are being told what to do.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Why should Serbia decided on NATO membership? It is pointless because it is very unpopular and our constitution describes us as militarily neutral - we already voted on it! It is an insult to even suggest joining NATO especially after the aggression they committed against us.

Why don't we have a referendum on EU membership? You yourself mentioned it was pointless due to the large support base. If that's the case then why one on NATO?

"Frankly I find it astonishing that if Serbia does something you don't like you call it treason. Serbia is not a vassal state of Russia, it has responsiblity to its own citizens, not the Russian government. Do you understand that?"
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
-------------------

And Serbia cannot exist without support of a more powerful country. Do you understand that?
What do you think Serbia is? Serbia is only one small country without much political muscle in the world. Without someone like Russia we would've lost Kosovo a long time ago.
Without Russia we are in danger of getting bombed again by the US if we don't tow the line. Do you understand any of this?

You see a question like "Do you understand" can also be asked of you.

All small countries are a vessel to someone bigger. Never compare Serbia to Yugoslavia. The two are very different indeed. It's only a matter of who you trust more, Russia or the US.

I can tell you who I trust more. The one who never bombed me.

Just like you reserve the right of Serbia to make decisions on what is best for her, you must give Russia the same right and if they decide that they are not getting back what they need for their support and investment, they can choose to take their business and protection elsewhere.

Again, how much muscle do you think Serbia has or are you angling for Serbia to stick a finger in Russia's eye for the sake of sucking up some more to the US who only wants to bring us to our knees or destroy us.

Do you understand that?

There is no chance Serbia will join NATO- although the current government is Pro western: even they cannot forget what is left all over serbia after the so called peace keeping group attacked! Serbia does not need to part of Nato to be part of teh EU

Look, let's everybody try to be understanding of the Russians right now. They've just finished their latest strategic doctrine document (it needs one last signature) where a major threat is identified as Nato's creeping encroachment. Now, by shear coincidence, the U.S. DoD has just published its Quadrennial Defense Review (available at http://www.defense.gov/QDR/ - also in Russian) where Russia is barely mentioned. They've got to feel hurt. Add that Romania has just announced they're going to participate in the missile defense program, and you can understand a little touchiness on the part of the Russian military.

Serbia joining NATO is food for Albanian consumption.
So eat up K albs your sugary diet of self importance is going to give you a big crash.

If you believe Serbia will ever function as a partner to Russia, you are very naive. Serbia can be a protectorate of Russia "with conditions".
(pss, 8 February 2010 17:10)
PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)

To logic

Easy buddy,browse through the Serbian history and do not compensate the lack of knowledge with a denunciation.

So Zoran we should not listen or trust what our people want in a referendum and we should not listen to our government either. We don't trust democracy! And yet according to you the Russian government is above the Serbian government and the Serbian people? We should trust them! Thank you Russia. Hah, thats a joke isn't it? Russia is suffering from the same disease of democracy or lack of it, as all the other countries in the international system. Frankly I find it embarassing to see you on bended knee in thanks for people in a system that by its very nature is laughing at you.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
--
As usual you create some story in your head and slot me into it. You don't make sense.
==
Zoran Yes, I don't particularly believe in democracy but I know that our elected officials are afraid of their people. I trust the elite of another country even less, because we can't influence them. So even though I think a referendum on NATO is a waste of time it is preferable to have our own people to decide than a foreign government.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
--
We don't need a referendum, we already know what the Serbian people think about NATO. I repeat, it is an insult to even consider it.
==
Why shouldn't we have a referendum on EU? What has the EU to do with this topic? To use your (unhelpful) logic if we don't have a referendum on NATO then why should we have one on the EU? Great argument Zoran, not very constructive though.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
--
I am using your logic bganon. You mentioned once it was pointless having a referendum in Serbia regarding EU membership because it is well supported. Well, you'll get even more people rejecting NATO than supporting the EU so there is even less point having one.

It was only some weeks ago when Rote Kapelle proudly presented a typical Russian way of behaviour: He called the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) a greatest victory of Russian diplomacy.

And what a victory it was! This Russian diplomatic victory includes attacking Poland, murdering there not only Poles but Ukrainians as well. It includes the Katyn Forest Massacre, a mass execution of approx. twenty-two thousand Polish citizens (intellectuals, military officers, civil servants etc.) by the Soviet Union, in 1940. And they blamed the massacre on the Nazis... another high point in Russian diplomacy.

Rote Kapelle sees that the Katyn Forest Massacre helped to protect Russians from the Nazis. He has no need to think of those people who paid for this victory. Among them were also Finns on whom Russia attacked in November 1939, again as you call it, to protect Russians.

Rote Kapelle's writings are fearful reading. All what he says suggests me not to trust Russian friendship for one second. 

"A principled support", based on International laws and agreements, has been exchanged to conditional, and put in use in black mailing. This is Russian friendship. One more of great diplomatic victories. Russian bear undressed his fur –out came a wolf.

Rote Kapelle, I asked you this already once but as I didn't get an answer I'll ask again: Have you ever interviewed your Slavic neighbors about their opinions of Russian friendship and trust toward Russia? I have. The result? Your track record of friendship is no good, to put it mildly. The most favorable result this far I've got in Belgrade, fifty-fifty. I think that's as good result as it can get. But Serbs aren't your neighbors. And to be fair I had to dare to interview a number of (not-so-bright-looking) supporters of Radical Party and other lovely nationalist visionaries.

If you want a better result, interview only Russians.

It's true that in August 2009, while visiting Poland, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact as "unacceptable from the moral point of view." Well, that's for sure better than to call it the greatest diplomatic victory. But to trust Russians...

...and I'm don't mean the Russian people, nation, here. I'm speaking of Russian leaders.








As usual Zoran you did not refute anything I wrote, rather you avoided answering it. Feel free, tell me that the Russian government is somehow enlightened, immune from the distrust of democracy that we share. Do you think about that when on bended knee in praise to them?

I understand that you have more respect for the Russian government than the Serbian one. Correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you support their view on NATO and I understand that you don't want the Serbian people to vote on that issue. As I made clear the Serbian people and their government should make decisions that concern them.

And on this issue you mention - a referendum on the EU! How about a referendum on electoral reform? Better still a national debate on whether the sun goes round the earth or vice versa. I find your arguments mind boggling sometimes, but they share one common theme, to avoid tackling an issue head on or to derail to talk about certain national issues that you have a bee in your bonnet about.

China has a veto too guys, they're on our side as well, even if they are not as vocal about it.

Dragan, I was in Belgrade Spring of 2001. Trust me it was NATO damage that caught my eye. Parliment was all fixed up by then. Serbs like to destroy things in colorful ways. Check out Belgrade during a sports championship! I have...

"And on this issue you mention - a referendum on the EU! How about a referendum on electoral reform? Better still a national debate on whether the sun goes round the earth or vice versa. I find your arguments mind boggling sometimes, but they share one common theme, to avoid tackling an issue head on or to derail to talk about certain national issues that you have a bee in your bonnet about."
(bganon, 8 February 2010 19:08)

========================

Now look who is trying to muddy the waters in order not to tackle the issues brought forward by people you don't agree with.

Stop exaggerating. What's this about earth the the sun stuff?
We all have different opinions and you seem very angry that you cannot change other people's opinions to match yours, hence the sarcasm.
We all want what is best for Serbia. What most of us are saying is that following Russia's lead and respecting Russia enough not to poke her in the eye IS what is best for Serbia. Russia has done a lot for Serbia and if they ask us not to join NATO, an organisation determined to keep Russia down, then we should oblige. They are not going to bomb us if we don't, unlike some others who you seem to want to join. Withdrawing their support is fair enough. One hand washes the other. We withdraw support for Russia by joining NATO and they withdraw their support for us. What else would you expect?

@VELJA

I already answered your identical posting in yesterdays comments on the same topic. No need to repeat myself, I stand behind my words. Now, I have a few questions for you:
- What is the purpose of your copying the long list of "friend's betrayals"?
Is that your desire to educate the Serbian people in their history? If so, where are the examples of our Western friends betrayals?
Selective memory, Veljo?
How come you went some centuries back into history,
but no mentioning of more recent and for many very painful events?
Short span memory?
I don't think so. It is rather calculated, one sided presentation with the goal to protect "poor" Serbians of relying on "unreliable friend". The crown of your "good" intentions is definitely your mentioning of 1949 "unforgettable" Russian betrayal!!!That crown was too heavy though: it did topple all of your arguments.


-

A strong Russia means a strong Serbia. It seems you Otpor types just can't see that, but one day you will.
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 8 February 2010 06:21)
If you believe Serbia will ever function as a partner to Russia, you are very naive. Serbia can be a protectorate of Russia "with conditions".

'China has a veto too guys, they're on our side as well, even if they are not as vocal about it.'

Matthew, of course China is on our side, so is most of the world, and so are most of the citizens of the countries that recognized in fact (nobody asked them). However, without Russia's very forceful rebuke of Kosovo independence, China would would have stepped aside and abstained - Serbia is not that important to China but with Russia it is blood and belonging. Face it, without Russia and their veto we were doomed.
Speaking of China, I hope you got a chance to look at the Chinese embassy in ruins like I did. It is right in the middle of a residential area with apartment buildings VERY close by. That just goes to show you how much the US and NATO care about Serbian lives. These are the same people who now pretend to be our friends and look out for our interests. No thanks, I'll stick with the Russians.

Matthew, did you ever consider that NATO created Otpor from the beginning? They funded the "Target" t-shirts and their activities. I mean, how else could they create an opposition that would eventually be used to remove Milosevic?

Controlling both the supports and opposition is the ideal position isn't it? I have seen evidence of the DS attempting to control both the pro-EU and anti-EU groups here in Belgrade. The easiest people to manipulate are normally the "educated youth". Universities are a good place to start.

bganon, my friend, did you read what Sv. Sava said?

"But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us and here on earth--no one.”

Here, let me break it down:

1. But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East
--
Here is good background on Sv. Sava's point. Check http://www.deltax.net/bissett/western.htm

2. to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us
--
We acknowledge only God and his message of peace and love. Lets work towards this and we will prosper.

3. and here on earth--no one.
--
We do not bow to the East or West. We bow only to God.

Now lets consider the choice Russia has given us. Do we work towards keeping our province, the heart of our religion, in a way that is acceptable - though peaceful negotiations. It is Russia who continues to support an agreement acceptable to all.

or

Do we join (in your words) a killing machine. The side that has ruled out negotiations and wants us on our knees.

Hmm, now is that a difficult choice? Do we need a referendum on that? I thank Russia for making the choice so clear.

As for the EU, if we are going to give up our sovereignty then I think we need to have a proper debate and put it to a referendum. Lets give the people the truth and lets allow them to decide.

"NATO created Otpor from the beginning? They funded the "Target" t-shirts...(Zoran, 8 February 2010 20:22)"
So NATO told Optor to protest the NATO bombing by standing on bridges NATO targeted? NATO funded the Target signs?
Fascinating theory, but incredibly strange to say the least. Where do you find this sort of information?
Do you know any Optor members? Have you spoken to any of them about this protest? I have a lot of friends who were there in Belgrade during this time period.
I will let you in on a little secret if you promise not to tell anyone. Optor folks love Kosovo as much as any Serb, and surprise, surprise, I don't know a single one that supported the NATO bombing (I'm sure they likely exist, but not any I know). Maybe I didn't talk to the "right" Optor members.
If I happen to find any of them that were on NATO's payroll during that time, I'll be sure to ask them about it.
Most Optor members I knew really just hated Milosevic and that pretty much was their main motivation, but then again what do I know, I'm basing all my opinions on actually talking to people who were there. I'm sure you know far more about what the members of Optor were thinking at the time.
"Speaking of China, I hope you got a chance to look at the Chinese embassy in ruins like I did. (Dragan, 8 February 2010 20:10)"
Yup, I most certainly did. Got pictures of it right after the bombing. I think you guys are confused, I think I made it very plain that I hate NATO, I called them a "dangerous rogue organization, spiraling out of control with no real purpose except to serve as the bludgeon of the West."
Personally, I don't want Serbia to be the lacky of either the West OR the East. I love Russians, I love Russia, I love Putin, I think he's a great leader.
You defeatists think we could not go forward without Russia. I say to you that you're blind and have no confidence in our cause. We will prevail because we're on the side of what's right and just.
I'm in it for the long haul, even if it takes another 500 years.
Those of you who think we should make sacrfices for momentary political goals are foolish. That sort of cowering makes us look weak.

So NATO told Optor to protest the NATO bombing by standing on bridges NATO targeted? NATO funded the Target signs?
Fascinating theory, but incredibly strange to say the least. Where do you find this sort of information?
(Matthew, 9 February 2010 00:38)
--
I really am surprised that even after it was admitted being a "NATO" creation, people still support Otpor. Otpor was created in Sept 2008, well before NATO's bombing. They were on bridges in Belgrade, not Novi Sad (where they were being bombed). Here are some details:

Otpor was a recipient of substantial funds from U.S. government affiliated organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), International Republican Institute (IRI), and US Agency for International Development (USAID).

Paul B. McCarthy from the Washington-based NED stated that Otpor received the majority of US$3 million spent by NED in Serbia from September 1998 until October 2000.

Just how much of the US$25 million, appropriated in the year 2000 by USAID, for the purposes of bringing down Milošević, went to Otpor is not clear. Donald L. Pressley, the assistant administrator at USAID said that several hundred thousand dollars were given to Otpor directly for "demonstration-support material, like T-shirts and stickers".

A group of activists made one trip to Budapest in neighbouring Hungary in June 2000 to attend a lecture by retired US Army Col. Robert Helvey, a colleague of Sharp, who was later portrayed as the "creator" of Otpor.

Here, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor

Just another NATO creation and most of them are now part of the DS.

PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)
(Milan, 8 February 2010 18:25)
It is true that Kosovo is a protectorate, there was an agreement for supervised independence there are no surprises there--the only ones that seem to be confused are those who believe they are on an equal playing field with Russia. And able to make demands on Russia.

Miri, Pss - Serbia is ANY protectorate - nevermind, american, european or russian. Serbia is proud independent and NEUTRAL state. Mayby for You - being protectorate or colony is good solution, but not for real independent state like Republic of Serbia.

PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)
(Milan, 8 February 2010 18:25)

Now compare this to being a protectorate of Serbia which will be a protectorate of Russia which will be a protectorate (at least economically) of EU.

We should think about Eu/Nato and forget about Kosovo,Kosovo has never been our's
we only Invaded that Place thats all

I would encourage Serbia not to join either the EU or NATO.
And as an American, I am disgusted by my country's anti-Serb stance, and recognizing independent Kosovo. I'm sure we will gain much from befriending the Albanians.

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves”
--
Thank you Rogozin and thank you Russia. That's what we like to see, a bear showing its teeth. What are these sell-outs in the DS going to do? Trade Kosovo for NATO membership? Time to give ŠuNATOvac the boot and to replace him with a patriot.

Lets never forget NATO's contribution to Serbia. Check

http://www.kosovo.net/usce.jpg
http://www.russiablog.org/SerbianChurchBombedOut.jpg
http://photos.longjaunt.com/2008/05/07/belgrade_serbia/001.jpg
http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/march2006/150306clinton3.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2925772633_9da1e32439.jpg
http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/4/49/05_novi_sad.jpg
http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/03/69323320947e77066b5134314721213_MidCol.jpg

Serbio, "please" do everything in order to become member of NATO.

I would remind all these so-called Elites to remember the Kosovo curse of Prince Lazar. Be it a reminder of the blood oath all Serbs have:

Whoever is a Serb and of Serb birth,

And of Serb blood and heritage,

And comes not to fight at Kosovo,

May he never have the progeny his heart desires,

Neither son nor daughter!

May nothing grow that his hand sows,

Neither dark wine nor white wheat!

And let him be cursed from all ages to all ages!

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves,” daily Blic writes.


hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.

"and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato."
Kosovo-USA

There can never be peace with those who are trying to steal Serbian land.

OK Russia we get the message, we don't need announcements every day.

If we tried to join NATO you would stop supporting us on Kosovo.

The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either.

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.

Serbia is really LOST!

Yeah serbia doesnt need nato
for example austria and sweden are EU members and not part of Nato.
Joining only EU with kosovo is enough.

bganon, 6 February

“However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....”

Shame on you ! How could you write this and how dare you to doubt us ! If you look at what is going on the last two years you will see that common Russians were shocked and disorientated by reelecting Boris Tadic – a man with a Russian name and a Western mentality. We swallowed this pile and remained your friends. I like Boris but he has only once visited Moscow as a President. Without our damned support he would never enjoy this Presidency and what do we have instead ? Can you imagine Nikolic working for NATO ? And now you complain that Rogozin has reminded you the words said long ago by FM Lavrov. We really can support you only until you resist and we cannot be better Serbs than you are. So what is the news ?

Yesterday Kozunin was more diplomatic but Rogozin is a Russian hawk and so he behaves. And dear “bganon” best if you ask yourself why should the Russians all of a sudden got so worried about Serbia’s NATO prospects. And if you do so you will find a lot of reasons for us to do so. Yet we are not so blind not to see the difference between the Western minded Serbian elites and the rest of the people. And so we warn youê elites that this time Tito’s Middle Of The Road Policy won’t work and you will have to open your eyes for the reality. As simple as that !

Another reason is that NATO is in it’s climax period demoralized with permanent losses. They have already lost Russia , Ukraine , Georgia , Burma , N.Korea , Iran , China , Afghanistan , Sudan , Somalia , Yemen , Pakistan , the whole of the Central Asia and Latin America , Turkey , Iraq , Azerbaijan ect.ect. Even in Kosovo they are deadlocked. They had to close their missiles deployment in Poland and Chekhia and bury their NABUCCO dream. So they need at least one success and this is why they try to pull you to NATO before a normal nationalist Serb is elected. And so we warn the elite of yours not to pretend to be naive.

My Best Regards !

>>No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999

Veto on what sunshine? Attack was illegal never got Ok from Un.
So not placing veto on something never up for vote is worse than attacking our country illegally and killing thousands, which is what Nato did?
Even as troll you're not very good.

I see Russia could later change its stance on Kosovo and recognize their independence ! I urge Serbia to join NATO ! So Kosovo gets recognized fast and no more lobbying ! I support them and will support them! I also think serbia would benefit if they recognize Kosovo seriously Serbia can achieve much !

Military agreements and alliances led to the domino effect that brought all the great powers into the war in WWI. Have we in the Balkans not learned a single thing over the last century?

The very existence of NATO is a global threat to the peace and security of the world, especially when left to act unilaterally and WITHOUT the consent or approval of the UN.

NATO is a dangerous rogue organization, spiraling out of control with no real purpose except to serve as the bludgeon of the West.

“The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)”

I was thinking the exact same thing too bganon. I don’t think it’s wise for the Russia government to start putting conditions onto Kosovo.

“Shame on you ! How could you write this and how dare you to doubt us ! If you look at what is going on the last two years you will see that common Russians were shocked and disorientated by reelecting Boris Tadic…(Rote, 6 February 2010 19:10)”

Don’t worry Rote, the Russian and Serbian\Montenegrin people themselves remain extremely close regardless of any statements our governments make.

However, I’m going to agree with bganon here, do NOT put conditions on our friendship and most certainly DO NOT threaten our sacred historical homeland over momentary political needs. We are the BRIDGE between East and West, never forget our place in region. Even Stalin did not dictate to us in such a manner.

I know it must have been insulting for us to be in discussions with NATO for the last few years (which I, like most Serbs opposed), but for your government to speak this way publically on the eve of the ICJ ruling is just plain insulting. You should be condemning it Rote, those kinds of statements most certainly do NOT contribute to a close working relationship between our two governments.

There is an old saying :sudden friendship, sure repentance, but we deal with an old friend here. We have been deceived and misled by a traditionally old friend in our history more than once. There was sometimes an excuse for such an act. We remember the I Serbian Uprising in 1804 ,when we were pushed to launch the armed uprising against Turks with a pledge of support , which was soon abandoned. We remember the St, Stephan Treaty 1878 when the old friend advocated for Great Bulgaria on Serbian territory. We will never forget 1949. No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999 . What about risky privatizations. This time a blackmail was put forward with a choice between: whether you take it or leave it ,you will repent.

hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
(Kosova-USA, 6 February 2010 12:13)
you havent been keeping up with your reading.america is very nervous about the ICJ decision so it looks like they are going to force the situation in northern kosmet.Many countries are uncomfortable with what happened and is happenning in Kosmet.God bless Kosmet.

Rote I'm afraid I don't have a problem with logic's views, so I don't see why you are painting yourself as some kind of noble crusader and what that has to do with anything.

Tell me one thing, if you have to choose between Russian interests and Serbian ones which do you choose. Case closed. Let me inform you that while I respect Russia, I will pick Serbia ahead of Russia 100 times out of 100.

Best to take your own advice and the same goes towards your government. Russia spoke at the UN and other places about its 'principled' support of Serbia on Kosovo. All of a sudden now we have this.

This latest statement is an escallated viewpoint, a new one, that Lavrov has not expressed before and I'm disappointed and not the only one upset by this language.

You should be against such language of your government, while supporting the Serbian people's view not to support NATO.

But if you personally also want to tell us what to do, thanks but we will make our own minds up.

One more thing, this move will strengthen the anti Russian lobby within the 'democratic' camp of Serbian politics. The democratic camp will maintain its stranglehold on Serbian politics (for good or evil). In effect statements like these make it more likely that Serbia will lose Kosovo.

Rogozin is completely right!

The problem with the world today, is that the masses are unable to speak for the majority and the government makes self interested decisions.

Prime minister has currently Prorogued our Goverment in Canada, see provided link.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/01/31/12687696.html

So most likely through some type of bribery and or arm twisiting, Serbia may just join NATO against the will of the citizens.

Democracy at it's finest!

He said that Russia would then have to question its stances towards Kosovo, adding that “We cannot be bigger Serbs than the Serbs themselves,” daily Blic writes.

Sums the whole Kosovo issue and is a reflection of the only way Kosovo can legally be purged from Serbs and that is through Serbian consent that is why so many in the media and on forums such as these are trying to convince Serbs it is lost reiterating it's a done deal, think again ie Western Sahara.
Nato is not worth your soul nothing is worth your soul two thirds of the world is behind you the game is yours to lose or win.
Go for the win.

What does Serbia stand to gain from joining NATO? A pledge to not be bombed again for 70+ days?

Some albanian troll has taken my name and posted a ridiculous comment. Please ignore it.
I fully agree with Rogozin's comments, and I hope he keeps speaking and shaming Tadic and the yellows to behave like real Serbs, not like yellow lackeys.
NATO is an organization that has no business in Serbia.
Thanks for your clear and honest comments Mr. Rogozin, and keep on talking!!
Cheers!!
The real 'Dragan'

Logic

Thank you for answering VELJA twice ! I did the same with bganon today. But best if Serbs talk themselves to their renegades. Yes if we strive to we will find dark spots in our history. Especially if we want them to be found. But if we are objective enough we will recall much bigger and brighter events in the past. If today’s Russia is responsible for the events of 1804 then we may go too far. Be sure there will be a crazy Russian to say that Gavril Prinsip with his revolver has destroyed the Great Russian Empire. ( To say nothing that Russia was shocked when you reelected Boris. ) And this is exactly what NATO , the Croats and Albanians are ready to pay for.

What if one say that we have always fought on the same side ? What if we say that outside the USSR two Yugoslavian armies mostly composed of the Serbs were the only real forces on the continent to help us against the Nazi ? (We don’t believe in fairy tales about other partisan movements). What if we say that in the last two decades we had the same fate and that in 1999 Russia itself was an occupied country with a Boris of our own ? What if we recall how PM Primakov has turned his plane back above the Atlantic when he learned of the bombings ? What if we recall how the current President of Ingushetia seized the airport ? What if we suggest that it’s not Serbia pushing Russia to stand for Kosovo but it’s Russia and common Serbs make your elites imitate struggle ? I guess our ancestors would not approve a split between us and best thing we can do is to stand against provocateurs of all kinds as firm as you do it dear Logic. Thanks a lot !

“Serbia cannot enter NATO with Kosovo”

Hint hint from from Russia~ :D

hm, I hope Serbian people will come to its sences and relize that Kosova/o is a done deal, and they should move forward and set up diplomatic relation with Kosova/o and live in peace ever after. Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
(Kosova-USA, 6 February 2010 12:13)
--
Couldn't agree more with your comments my friend.
You nailed it.

This clearly shows that Serbian politicians have to listen to what foreign officials want them to do. I wonder whether they are aware how pathetic and irrelevant they are in the eyes of the world ???

Even Russia is realising that Serbia is not a reliable partner. Bad times ahead for Belgrade

Peggy so you were one of those that thought that we should accept terms at Ramboullet?

You asked people then, 'what do you expect us to do in standing upto NATO'?

Well Peggy, tell me what is the point of having any policies on anything at all?

Whilst you are at it tell me would you accept any and every demand from Russia in support for kosovo? I'm genuinely interested how much you would give up.

You would like me to condemn NATO, a decade after the bombing? I don't understand, I have consistently condemned war crimes since the very beginning of the wars no matter who committed them, including NATO. And I don't support NATO membership. So the problem is where exactly - other than these statements?

What would I do? Er I would expect our allies not to threaten us. If they don't want to be our friends then we will have to be smart and consider other options.

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.
(Ljokimalija, 6 February 2010 19:26)

Sure how should they make the check payable to Milosevic or ?!?!?!

Stop with this talk that NATO came for no reason really its just pathetic. Why always Serbia is the one to be picked.

Many people here make Serbia to be a victim in all Yugoslav wars and NATO, the rest as bad guys.

To me this does not add up.

Serbian Friends you have a choice NATO =EU or Russia = being like East Germany, Poland till 1989 etc.

You think Serbia will be rich due to transit fee from the pipe oil its funny Ukrain has been transit country for many years i dont see them improving.

Face it all Serbia is a small peace in the big game, you cant offer anything just because they want you to join nato does not mean we cant live without you.

So please stop pretending that we are begging and oh pleas join NATO. nato was fine without Serbia and will be if you dont but Serbia will suffer in long run.

IMF will push for no loans, EU no more subsedises just like greec you have huge public sector if you dont get loans you would drown.

I been in Serbia many times in last 4 years and I know the situation first hand, poverty and standard of living and once you go out of Belgrad and go south o boy o boy 150Euros its monthly salary (i.e Jagodina, Nis, ...)

And please dont mind the people who come here to speak most are nationalist living abrod Serbians are quit nice people and the ones in Serbia most speak the truth about their conditions.

oh what a price demanded from serbia, not to enter nato.

russia is a serious country, therefore it takes serious sutanovac.

but russia shouldn´t do so, as no one else does so. not serbia, not the president (bypassing the first russian base around him and playing it via interior ministry), nor his own party (generals he fires strart making careers).

this is all a virtual discussion, started by a politically dead, to reanimate his political career.

the only non-virtual question is, when will DS give up it´s dream and big lie of european integration. neither nato nor eu are realistic goals, who´s gonna say it first?

"The thing is that we don't support NATO membership in the first place. However, when somebody tries to threaten you, you start to wonder whether you should stand up to them....

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either."
(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)

=======================

So let's join NATO za inat ha Bganon?
What are you trying to say with this? How do you propose we stand up to Russia?

We had 78 days of bombing and you did not write something like this for the Americans and yet here you respond in such a provocative manner when Russia tells us what they will and won't accept.
They have every right to react any way they want if we make such a move. What do you want from Russia? Unconditional support? We can turn our back on them by joining NATO and they still have to support us in Kosovo?

There is a reaction to every action and without Russia's support we would've already said goodbye to Kosovo long ago. Show a little gratitude instead of flexing that muscle we don't have.

So I ask you again. What do you propose Serbia does now? You seem to have the answers.

This Rogozin fellow is always so classy.

What must be completely unbearable to Serbs is that had Serbia signed up at Rambouillet, Kosovo would have been left as an autonomous unit within Serbia and there would have been permanent peace, with accelerated EU/Nato cooperation, etc. Kosovo would still have become independent eventually, as it is the will of the people. But it would have been so much neater.

Instead, to this day Serbia insists on her "right" to cause problems for Albanians. Perhaps a deteriorating standard of living might clear their minds? An alliance with Russia sounds good then.

But if you personally also want to tell us what to do, thanks but we will make our own minds up.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 02:05)
--
Who represents our minds? The Serbian people or the anti-Russian lobby? Even a referendum would be pointless regarding NATO membership as it would be rejected overwhelmingly. There would be more logic having one on EU membership.

Who is telling us what to do? Russia is just giving us a clear choice, join NATO and lose our support. Why should they support us? NATO has agressively expanded eastwards after promising it wouldn't. NATO is responsible for the conflict in Georgia and the destruction of Serbia. The only people telling us what to do are those in the EU and NATO, not Russia.
==
One more thing, this move will strengthen the anti Russian lobby within the 'democratic' camp of Serbian politics. The democratic camp will maintain its stranglehold on Serbian politics (for good or evil). In effect statements like these make it more likely that Serbia will lose Kosovo.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 02:05)
--
In that case the DS will lose Kosovo for us and not Russia. With Russia's support we have already won and we just need to maintain that position but DS policy is weakening it. What good has EULEX's deployment achieved? They are now actively working towards weakening Serbian control over the province. Who is responsible for that? Russia or the DS? Who's agenda is it? Russia's or the NATO's?

It is fairly clear who is helping us here. Thank you Russia!

Rote - thank you and great comments.
Peggy, Zoran and rest of the logical Serbs - great comments.

bganon,
Please take off your Otpor (funded by Madeline Albright) scarf just for a second and try to think logicaly. What in God's name has Rogozin said that is so offensive to you? Seriously, the man is just saying the obvious truth - if you decide to join NATO after all we have done for you, you will lose our support. Clear as day, and very fair. I would not expect Russia to keep supporting us if we are stupid and treasonous enough to join NATO after they almost destroyed Serbia and stole 15% of our territory. You reap what you sow, and Serbia is not Bulgaria, so let's keep it that way. What you and other Otpor types need to realize is this: if it wasn't for Russia, Kosovo is lost!!
Get that through your heads. Once again, thank you Russia, we Serbs are very greatful and we will never forget!! This government is not one that was elected by the people, but one that was engineered into power with bizarre alliances by the US, let's hope the next one is patriotic and reflects better the views of the Serbian people.
Cheers!!

It was only some weeks ago when Rote Kapelle proudly presented a typical Russian way of behaviour: He called the 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact (the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact) a greatest victory of Russian diplomacy.

And what a victory it was! This Russian diplomatic victory includes attacking Poland, murdering there not only Poles but Ukrainians as well. It includes the Katyn Forest Massacre, a mass execution of approx. twenty-two thousand Polish citizens (intellectuals, military officers, civil servants etc.) by the Soviet Union, in 1940. And they blamed the massacre on the Nazis... another high point in Russian diplomacy.

Rote Kapelle sees that the Katyn Forest Massacre helped to protect Russians from the Nazis. He has no need to think of those people who paid for this victory. Among them were also Finns on whom Russia attacked in November 1939, again as you call it, to protect Russians.

Rote Kapelle's writings are fearful reading. All what he says suggests me not to trust Russian friendship for one second. 

"A principled support", based on International laws and agreements, has been exchanged to conditional, and put in use in black mailing. This is Russian friendship. One more of great diplomatic victories. Russian bear undressed his fur –out came a wolf.

Rote Kapelle, I asked you this already once but as I didn't get an answer I'll ask again: Have you ever interviewed your Slavic neighbors about their opinions of Russian friendship and trust toward Russia? I have. The result? Your track record of friendship is no good, to put it mildly. The most favorable result this far I've got in Belgrade, fifty-fifty. I think that's as good result as it can get. But Serbs aren't your neighbors. And to be fair I had to dare to interview a number of (not-so-bright-looking) supporters of Radical Party and other lovely nationalist visionaries.

If you want a better result, interview only Russians.

It's true that in August 2009, while visiting Poland, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact as "unacceptable from the moral point of view." Well, that's for sure better than to call it the greatest diplomatic victory. But to trust Russians...

...and I'm don't mean the Russian people, nation, here. I'm speaking of Russian leaders.








To my countryman Big Steve.

I never forget that my country is always the first to help when tragedies strike all around the world it USA that donated the most money, that appropriates the most troops yo peacekeeping missions, that leads the world in innovation and development. Without USA and EU this would ne a backwards world take for example the earthquake in Haiti. Where were the Russians and the Chinese? Or the Indians and Arabs? Even when tsunami hit southeast Asia who ran to their help?
Therefore, )before you citizen USA look in the mirror and say something, anything, then you will realize if it was not for US you'd be speaking German and have a long Arabic beard.

You should be condemning it Rote, those kinds of statements most certainly do NOT contribute to a close working relationship between our two governments.
(Matthew, 6 February 2010 22:54)
--
I have to disagree with both you and bganon Matthew. Russia has been far too soft on these issues while NATO has been agressively pushing non-compliant states into its sphere. That is wrong and I'm glad Russia has made the choice so clear. Are we going to pursue NATO membership (as some in our government are working towards) or do we need to make it clear that Kosovo comes first? If Russia does not take this stance, we'll be a NATO member before we know it. Montenegro is well on its way already. With Serbia, we need to reject it much more aggressively.

Now lets watch what happens in the Ukraine carefully. The future may lie there.

Serbia can not enter EU with Kosova either.

Say it like it is Russia. Nato first must pay reparations about 30 billion dollars, adopt resolution apologising for illegal unprovoked attack and prosecute war criminals, only main ones, who killed thousands of Serbian citizens. After these three things happen we can cooperate on minimal necessary level and put past behind.
(Ljokimalija, 6 February 2010 19:26)
The only apology NATO owes is to the Kosovo people for stopping before they got an unconditional surrender and placing the country in this quagmire it is in now.
78 should have been 100 and I think that both would be far ahead of the place they are today.

BGANON = “All of a sudden now we have this.”

*** It was quite expected cause NATO is a totally hostile block for us. As you know we have nothing against your EU membership and support you in all the international organizations. But NATO is a big irritating factor for us. We spend too much money and efforts to neutralize them and if you pretend not to know it we have to warn you of the sequences you must be ready. If you’re going to be another Bulgaria to betray us wherever you can it’s up to you. I feel sorry your government made us warn you publicly. Maybe it was done deliberate to strengthen the comprador camp in Serbia.

*** The exact Lavrov’s words were “Ìû íå ìîćåì áûòü áîëüøčìč ñåđáàìč , ÷åì ñàìč ñåđáû “ and this is what Rogozin repeated now. Russia always had doubts concerning how far your leaders are ready to go to defend Kosovo. And now that you exchange our relations for the anti Russian block we have to warn you that you take a risk of relying only on US goodwill … Anyway the ball is on your side and you are free to treat us the Bulgarians always did or stick to our friendship. I felt ashamed for Russia in 1999 but not today.

PEGGY - Thank you !

ZORAN - Thank you too !

MARK - Thanks a lot for your explanation of our worries !

MATTEW – We don’t put conditions. We just warn that any talks about NATO membership are insulting for us. It’s an open treason we don’t deserve. We don’t expect it from Serbia and just warn you that if you go this way it will affect our relations in the worst way. Moreover it’s not only Kosovo reintegration but other matters which will suffer. I am sure we were compelled to warn Tadic &Co openly cause private talks gave no results. Though you’re right best if we solve our problems without encouraging our rivals.

Cheers !

Zoran Russia is telling us join NATO and lose Kosovo. Its not 'lose our support'. We in Serbia are a soverign state and we take decisions in Belgrade, not Moscow or Washington.

Just because you support the specific policy it amazes me that you can't see the problem here for sovereign democracy. You don't trust the elite in Serbia to do the right thing, you don't support a referendum (the Serbian people) to vote on NATO, but you support the Russian elite's knowing 'Serbia's mind' And yet you (and others talk about what the Serbian people want). Fine, then choose the people above the Russian government! If we decide, it is OUR decision, not because we are being told what to do.

Dan I repeat we are being told enter NATO and lose Kosovo, that is not a friendly suggestion. That is very serious indeed. It is a new approach that I do not welcome.

Rote you say that NATO 'is a totally hostile block' to Russia. That is very strange indeed considering the cooperation and agreements between Russia and NATO. In fact the only falling out in recent times between the two was instigated by NATO ie NATO moved away from Russia, not the other way round. You could have fooled me!

I'm also sorry that your government chose to flex its muscles on our own elected representatives. That was a deliberately calculated move, these things can be done in private. I can't read the text you posted on Lavrov but if you want to send a link showing me he said the same thing before, please do.

Frankly I find it astonishing that if Serbia does something you don't like you call it treason. Serbia is not a vassal state of Russia, it has responsiblity to its own citizens, not the Russian government. Do you understand that?

An now comes the price for the Russian support to Serbia's position.

Conditioning, conditioning; where is Mr. Jeremic? He has been convincing all around that he does his best to preventing new recognitions of Kosova, by using his “brilliant” brain (ideas). However, according to Mr. Rogozin’s statement this was just a bluff of Mr. Jeremic. In other words Mr. Jermic does nothing but deceives Serbian opinion. Proclaiming readiness to joining EU and NATO euphorically, being aware of such a stance of its bigger ally, leads to an ambiguity which belongs to history; no one is so dump to fall into a trap by such a demagogy. Of course, except the random citizen the only victim to be required to believe it.
By the way, the language Mr. Rogozin uses in this occasion make you consider him as a member of the Serb Radical Party!!

Serbia can not enter EU with Kosova either.

Here the exit strategy for Russia

Bganon and Peggy settle down. The last we need is in-fighting.
I personally think that it is good that Rogozin has said this. The Serbian people (as always)need a good clip over the ear to read the writing on the wall. This discussion of joining NATO is a private initiative by SuNATOvac and a few others. Serbia neither has the money to join such an organization nor do we have the menfolk who can be sacrificed for Af-Pak and possibly Iran. Oh and did i forget to mention that NATO bombed Serbia in 99 and did nothing whilst terrorists terrorised and plundered and desecrated our holy sites. Russia would back us to the hilt over Kosovo if there was a patriotice government in Belgrade as opposed to the current regime.

RE; Tadic Strategy is Correct

The neutral position that Serbia;s current foreign policy is the correct one.

Russia has become a good trading partner but the US is also expanding investment in Serbia and this must continue. Serbia never was, is and never will be a satellite nation to Russia.

Russia has shown throughout history to be an unreliable partner;

(1) Alexander Ypsialanti led the uprisings and promised military support in the 18th century to free the Balkans from the Ottomans. The Greeks were slaughtered while the Russian military support failed and was bogged down in Romania.

(2) Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were marching to free Constantinopole in the first Balkan war only again to be stopped by the Russians at the urging of the French and British.

(3) Russia backed Serbia during the outbreak of WWI but no help was forthcoming as the massive Austro-Hungarian Empire invaded. Serbia recieved some help from the French, the only substantive help was from the Pasha of Albania who allowed safe passage of the Serbian army and refugees eventually leading them to Corfu.

(4) Yveginy Primakov urged support for Serbia during the NATO bombings. Serbia again was double crossed by Russia as Yeltsin emissary Cheromydian (sp) withdrew Russian support.

(5) Russia in a show of hyprocricy marched in with Tanks in Pristina only to have them withdraw immediatly at the threat of US reaction.

Bgannon you asked:

Peggy so you were one of those that thought that we should accept terms at Ramboullet?

You asked people then, 'what do you expect us to do in standing upto NATO'?

Well Peggy, tell me what is the point of having any policies on anything at all?

-----------------

I'll tell you what I would not do and that is spit in Russia's eye by even considering joining NATO.

After all Russia has done and is doing this would be a major insult. No, I don't believe that someone else should make policies for Serbia but Russia being upset about this is not making policies for Serbia. It's telling Serbia that this is a major insult which they will not tolerate.
Bgannon, is this the way you replay your friends for all they have done?
Russia is not there making decisions. Where do you see them do that but just like Serbia has every right to get upset with Montenegro for establishing diplomatic relations with "Kosova" Russia also has every right to be upset if we do this.

Nobody gets unconditional support and Serbia is no different.

can serbs read, this guy is right, forget the eu and nato, lean towards russia, u get beat up by a bully then u go and beg to be his friend.

I am surprised with these realistic comments from the Russian representative regarding Serbia's future integration ambition to Europe and its stance to Kosova/a.
Serbia has to face the new reality either joining EU/NATO and recognise Kosova/o independence or isolate itself further with the prospect of joining Russian Federation.
It would be in Serbia's best interest to recognise Kosova/o independence, enter in new friendship agreement with Kosova/a , free movement of goods and people between the two countries, European standards for minorities living in Kosova/o and Presheva, Bujanovc and Medvegja and there will be everlasting peace and stability in the region.
That is how I see it anyway.

the only non-virtual question is, when will DS give up it´s dream and big lie of european integration. neither nato nor eu are realistic goals, who´s gonna say it first?
(raso, 6 February 2010 23:21)

Both EU and NATO membership are realistic, but Serbia must recognize Kosova/o first. If not, than I agree with you raso.

Russia is about to drop you like a hot potato.
Kosova-USA

Keep dreaming! Russia needs to justify its liberation of Abschazia and South Ossetia so only if the West recognizes these two Russia might do the same with Kosovo. And the West won't. However, should Serbia join NATO Russia might get upset and recognize that there is a black hole in south Europe by the name of Kosovo. Besides exclude the norhtern parts of Kosovo which will never join Pristina. Its well integrated in Serbia and will reamain so.

So Zoran we should not listen or trust what our people want in a referendum and we should not listen to our government either. We don't trust democracy! And yet according to you the Russian government is above the Serbian government and the Serbian people? We should trust them! Thank you Russia. Hah, thats a joke isn't it? Russia is suffering from the same disease of democracy or lack of it, as all the other countries in the international system. Frankly I find it embarassing to see you on bended knee in thanks for people in a system that by its very nature is laughing at you.

Dragan as usual you give yourself away. I don't doubt that you believe in what you say but Freud would find your style telling. You talk about the logical comments of those you support and in the next breath use emotion and not reason. No amount of grovelling Dragan will gain Russian favour, they are interested in what we can do for them. The only question is how much would you be prepared to give? You don't see it but thank god Serbs are not that guillable.

Zoran Yes, I don't particularly believe in democracy but I know that our elected officials are afraid of their people. I trust the elite of another country even less, because we can't influence them. So even though I think a referendum on NATO is a waste of time it is preferable to have our own people to decide than a foreign government.

Why shouldn't we have a referendum on EU? What has the EU to do with this topic? To use your (unhelpful) logic if we don't have a referendum on NATO then why should we have one on the EU? Great argument Zoran, not very constructive though.

Peggy I understand your position but do you understand mine? Serbia must go in the direction that benefits her most. The mistake would be to tie the mast to one side and then be exploited by that one side. Serbia is not Jugoslavija, but it has a duty to its citizens to do the best it can.

As you say 'nobody gets unconditional support' Russia / USA / EU is no different.

"Frankly I find it astonishing that if Serbia does something you don't like you call it treason. Serbia is not a vassal state of Russia, it has responsiblity to its own citizens, not the Russian government. Do you understand that?"
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
-------------------

And Serbia cannot exist without support of a more powerful country. Do you understand that?
What do you think Serbia is? Serbia is only one small country without much political muscle in the world. Without someone like Russia we would've lost Kosovo a long time ago.
Without Russia we are in danger of getting bombed again by the US if we don't tow the line. Do you understand any of this?

You see a question like "Do you understand" can also be asked of you.

All small countries are a vessel to someone bigger. Never compare Serbia to Yugoslavia. The two are very different indeed. It's only a matter of who you trust more, Russia or the US.

I can tell you who I trust more. The one who never bombed me.

Just like you reserve the right of Serbia to make decisions on what is best for her, you must give Russia the same right and if they decide that they are not getting back what they need for their support and investment, they can choose to take their business and protection elsewhere.

Again, how much muscle do you think Serbia has or are you angling for Serbia to stick a finger in Russia's eye for the sake of sucking up some more to the US who only wants to bring us to our knees or destroy us.

Do you understand that?

Grow up Dragan the entire political system and its economic master - capitalism is governned by the primary principle SELF INTEREST. Just try to contradict this, I dare you.

Russia is not there to help Serbia alturistically. At best it is there to help itself and then help Serbia. At worst it is there to exploit Serbia just like all other states. I am talking about the political elites, not the people. It doesn't matter one jot that we have both met Russians who are friendly and inclined towards Serbs. I've met Americans who feel the same way towards Serbia (due to exposure to the Balkans, not ethnic ties) and look at their policy towards Serbia. Then we have countries that are much closer to us ethnically that have gone against us - some of our neighbours. So its not all about religion or ethnicity either is it? I've also met both Americans and Russians that don't know where Serbia is.

Of course Russia is telling us what to do, in no uncertain terms. It is telling us we must not join NATO. At least have the grace to admit this and say you agree. Well I don't support NATO membership either, but (and this is the very last time I will say this) I do not welcome being blackmailed by a foreign government on an issue of national importance.
It is OUR decision.

To Logic
Your perception is quite baffling. As for 1949, you do not differ the cause from the result. Tito and his atrocities were the aftermath of Tito’s Russian policy . Stallin was Tito’s tutor,idol and icon he worshipped. Tito was one of Stallin’s apostoles. After Tito broke away from Stallin’s communist bloc, and turning a renegade ,he got wings, became very powerful dictator and started dealing with his subjects who rendered disobedient. Serbian communists were mostly his victims. He founded a concentration camp, a prison compound on a island Goli otok,similar to Stallin’s Siberia camps. Many innocent people died there.

A strong Russia means a strong Serbia. It seems you Otpor types just can't see that, but one day you will.
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 8 February 2010 06:21)
If you believe Serbia will ever function as a partner to Russia, you are very naive. Serbia can be a protectorate of Russia "with conditions".

Some commentators here and everywhere accused Kosovo Albanians to be "servant" of the USA, NATO and that they have to listen what they "masters" have to say. But It seems that Serbia is in a much worse condition. If the Russians and Serbs would be really in a brotherhood and firdnship as many of you claim to be, there would be other ways to make Belgrade clear that Russia doesn't want an approche of Serboa to the NATO.

The USA have other ways to make Prishtina it stands clear, not in the public and over media and especially not with this speech that sounds more after blackmailing that advising. For my understanding this doen't sounds after friendship and brotherhood but after a servant and master realtion between Russia and Serbia.

Lets never forget NATO's contribution to Serbia. (Zoran, 6 February 2010 11:49) It is tragic but can you explain why it happened to the innocent Serbs without biased. I guess it was just one of those unprovoked attack that boomeranged back to Serbia. If Serbia wants to join and be a satellite state to Russia more power to you. Just remember why the rest of the eastern countries when they had a chance to escape they ran from the Russia. I really dont think the Kremlin has in any way changed its operation of operandi. Russia is trying to separate Serbia and make it so dependent on it. On so many levels with all the pull strings leading right back to the Kremlin. Maybe in 30 to 40 years Serbia will finally come to their senses and realize they were very unproductive wasted years.

Rote Kapelle thank you!
Nice comments.

Zoran Russia is telling us join NATO and lose Kosovo. Its not 'lose our support'. We in Serbia are a soverign state and we take decisions in Belgrade, not Moscow or Washington.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Yes, this is a calculated move and a very good one. Russia has not taken any decision making away from Belgrade. It has given us a choice. Join NATO or keep Kosovo. What would you prefer?
==
Just because you support the specific policy it amazes me that you can't see the problem here for sovereign democracy.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Democracy? Even you admitted it doesn't exist and I agree.
==
You don't trust the elite in Serbia to do the right thing, you don't support a referendum (the Serbian people) to vote on NATO, but you support the Russian elite's knowing 'Serbia's mind' And yet you (and others talk about what the Serbian people want). Fine, then choose the people above the Russian government! If we decide, it is OUR decision, not because we are being told what to do.
(bganon, 7 February 2010 17:37)
--
Why should Serbia decided on NATO membership? It is pointless because it is very unpopular and our constitution describes us as militarily neutral - we already voted on it! It is an insult to even suggest joining NATO especially after the aggression they committed against us.

Why don't we have a referendum on EU membership? You yourself mentioned it was pointless due to the large support base. If that's the case then why one on NATO?

'Personally I think we have a strong case based in international law and ethics. I most certainly hope our side’s case is not based solely on Big Power politics.'

Matthew, with all due respect, we had international law on our side from the beginning, but that didn't stop them from bombing us for 78 days around the clock did it?? They ignore international law if it doesn't suit them, and invoke it when it does. I think your viewpoint is a little naive to say the least. If it wasn't for the Russian veto, Kosovo would now be independent and Greater Albania would be a reality - that is just the way it is and if you believe little Serbia alone with law on its side is enough to win, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Bye the way, Otpor (your heroes) also destroyed and looted the Serbian parliament building. Albright was very proud.

Bganon, again you skirt the issue and avoid answering the question. What is it that Rogozin said that is so offensive to you? I guess Russia telling Serbia it's either Kosovo or NATO is too much for NATO lovers like SuNATOvac and his fans to hear because it will hurt them in the next election. Russia is not sticking its nose into Serbian affairs, or telling Serbs what to do, they are just stating their viewpoint - and that viewpoint happens to coincide with Serbia's self interests as it always has.
I also dislike your tone with regards to Russia, as if we don't have historic, ethnic and religious ties and it's all business between us. That's just not the case, Russian people genuinely feel a brotherhood with Serbia, you should meet some and talk to them and then you'll see. As for the US, Germany, UK... yes with them it's all business and interests. That's the difference, and that is why they will eventually abandon albanians at the drop of a hat. Russia will never do such a thing with Serbia.
A strong Russia means a strong Serbia. It seems you Otpor types just can't see that, but one day you will.
Cheers!!

To logic

Easy buddy,browse through the Serbian history and do not compensate the lack of knowledge with a denunciation.

Serbia is a very small country that wants to play a big complicated diplomatic game.You cannot accuse the west left and right and yet want to be a member of the EU.You cannot seek Russia's support and yet want to be a NATO member.On Friday Russia declared NATO as the biggest national threat. I don't think that Tadic has any illusions that he can outsmart the West or Russia for that matter. But he can certainly play the Serbian public. He made it much easier for himself to get rid of the Kosovo issue.Asking the ICJ to give an opinion on Kosovo's independence was smart. Whatever the opinion, he as a politician is a winner.Although without asking the ICJ the Serbs could use the illegality card forever,Tadic goes ahead and asks the court to give an opinion.The same court that is controlled and financed by the countries that made kosovo independent. Serbs gave him full support for that
move( I give credit to a serb poster here that from the beginning understood what was happening,VanDerSerb or smthing like that).Pro Serbia opinion and Tadic is a hero,against Serbia or a vague opinion and you can keep blame it on the West.It will not last long,Serbia will have to pick a side.What some people call neutrality very soon might turn to isolation.

Look, let's everybody try to be understanding of the Russians right now. They've just finished their latest strategic doctrine document (it needs one last signature) where a major threat is identified as Nato's creeping encroachment. Now, by shear coincidence, the U.S. DoD has just published its Quadrennial Defense Review (available at http://www.defense.gov/QDR/ - also in Russian) where Russia is barely mentioned. They've got to feel hurt. Add that Romania has just announced they're going to participate in the missile defense program, and you can understand a little touchiness on the part of the Russian military.

Personally I don't respond to blackmail and Serbian history shows that Serbia doesn't respond well either."
(bganon, 6 February 2010 14:34)

Bganon I understand where you are coming from but what blackmail? you have to question has Russia the right to say what it said?

It has invested millions, moved pipelines, fought for our behalf on Kosovo implemented favourable trade agreements which attract European investors on the premise that Serbia's adopted position would be non-aligned. Now they see Sutanovac all giddy talking NATO up, from Russia's perspective what do you see?
I see second thoughts and Russia in no way declared you must do this or that they are just saying we are here to help, are you going to make fools of us.
Jero needs to pull Sutanovac back a bit he has worked too hard to get this far.

“Please take off your Otpor (funded by Madeline Albright) scarf [target sign] just for a second and try to think logicaly…”

Hilarious considering Optor came out in droves with those target signs to place on their heads while they stood on targeted bridges in protest against the NATO bombing, putting their very lives at risk to oppose NATO (those traitors, ha ha).

BTW, anyone with one of those signs for sale, I will pay good money for one.

“if it wasn't for Russia, Kosovo is lost!!”

Personally I think we have a strong case based in international law and ethics. I most certainly hope our side’s case is not based solely on Big Power politics.

“private talks gave no results. Though you’re right best if we solve our problems without encouraging our rivals. (Rote Kapelle, 7 February 2010 07:28)”

Something certainly stinks Rote, I agree it appears something happened behind the scenes that we’re not aware of. I do hope it’s nothing serious and encouraging our rivals is my main concern as well.

It’s just a damn strange thing to say since we all hate NATO. Hell, polls show we love Kosovo far more than even the EU and if we had to pick between the two, the overwhelming majority would choose Kosovo. But NATO? Seriously, why even bring it up?

I think it’s more of a message to the EU and the US that Russia is re-asserting herself in Europe. However, I still do not like being treated like a vassal state, and that sort of language is going to alienate the average Serb. We all love Russians and Russia, but we do have an issue with inat as Peggy pointed out.

So far, it’s been a win\win for both our States. Russia, at no real political cost, gets to reassert herself on the world stage, and Serbia gets some backing in her quest to retain her homeland.

If Russia wants us to give promises to firmly join her camp, I think it’s only fair for Russia to take some political risks on the Kosovo issue as well.

Last week the Albanians were rattled threatening war, before that the Croatians today we see articles in Western media trying to fruitlessly debunk the obvious as myth, could this be a prelude of the Neocon machine falling apart at the seems?

@VELJA

I already answered your identical posting in yesterdays comments on the same topic. No need to repeat myself, I stand behind my words. Now, I have a few questions for you:
- What is the purpose of your copying the long list of "friend's betrayals"?
Is that your desire to educate the Serbian people in their history? If so, where are the examples of our Western friends betrayals?
Selective memory, Veljo?
How come you went some centuries back into history,
but no mentioning of more recent and for many very painful events?
Short span memory?
I don't think so. It is rather calculated, one sided presentation with the goal to protect "poor" Serbians of relying on "unreliable friend". The crown of your "good" intentions is definitely your mentioning of 1949 "unforgettable" Russian betrayal!!!That crown was too heavy though: it did topple all of your arguments.


-

Serbia joining NATO is food for Albanian consumption.
So eat up K albs your sugary diet of self importance is going to give you a big crash.

There is an old saying :sudden friendship, sure repentance, but we deal with an old friend here. We have been deceived and misled by a traditionally old friend in our history more than once. There was sometimes an excuse for such an act. We remember the I Serbian Uprising in 1804 ,when we were pushed to launch the armed uprising against Turks with a pledge of support , which was soon abandoned. We remember the St, Stephan Treaty 1878 when the old friend advocated for Great Bulgaria on Serbian territory. We will never forget 1949. No vetto was exercised by the old friend during the NATO bombing in 1999 . What about risky privatizations. This time a blackmail was put forward with a choice between: whether you take it or leave it ,you will repent.
(Velja, 6 February 2010 11:44)

Do we come to a table where the feast is almost over, feed on scraps or do we endure and be the first guest at a new feast?

In the first uprising we are as much to blame for that as well, Count Sava Tekelija's
contradictory offer to France and later Austro-Hungary in which he mentions Russia as the only threat in the Balkans trickled to Karageorge’s foreign policy, even though Serbs still received the promised financial and diplomatic aid from the Russians. Thanks to the Russian arms Serbs were able to renounce the Icko peace and push for full independence from the Turks not just autonomy.
In 1812 after Napoleon's invasion of Russia things did drastically change and support was abandoned. Russian policy was focused on Russian defense and not Serbia's it's not rocket science.

By the San Stefano Treaty of 19 February (3 March), 1878, Serbia and Montenegro received full independence and significantly increased their territory. Exhausted by the war and unable to exclude Austrian interests and Serb-Greek objections to Vranje(my fathers lineage) and Macedonia(my mothers lineage), Russia agreed that a congress be organized in Berlin whereby the Treaty of San Stefano could be revised. The San Stefano fiction of Greater Bulgaria was never realized, and lived on paper for only three months. Do realize Bulgaria was more subservient to Russia than it's Serbian neighbor and thus was offered more.
As for 1949, the events that preluded certainly cannot be blamed on the Soviets we had just finished a World War and here was TITO knocking down US aircraft in his lust to take Trieste and push the Soviets into a confrontation with the west for the gain of his home republic, most Serbs today could not care less for communism, it was never a friend to Serbia just a leech treating it as a sacrificial lamb. Viewing the situation from a detached point of view Tito's actions worked tremendously in separating Serb opinion from the Soviet union and vice versa, should all the Serbs backed Russia when it organized the Serbian Communist party in Moscow and invaded would Serbia have lost so much in it's gullible sacrifice for brotherhood and unity. What the Russians were threatening in 1949 the so called ”Druze” did in 1974.
No veto being was excersiced by Russia in 1999, Velja your of the mark there this was not even a UN security council approved mission, it was the good offices of Russia that forbade the occupation of the rest of Serbia. Russia is in no way near incompetent as it was back then under Boris “Stolichnaya” Yeltsin.
By risky privatizations do you mean US steel in Smederevo etc? I see Russian investments overall as solid everyone needs energy and Serbia was made one of the most important junctions in this industry. In a perfect world we would own 100% of everything but reality does not allow for that, what we have received from Russia we need to be thankful for and not send mixed messages. Industry in Serbia will boom on the back of a favorable trade agreement with Russia which is attracting the Eu invest. What has the US and NATO done for Serbia but offer contradictions.
These examples are littered in our past and present itself before us now they also highlight our impatience to run before we learn to crawl or walk. Do we now join NATO and help them consolidate their illegal gains losing Kosovo which is blackmail, or do we keep doing what has been bearing fruits lately non alignment and diplomacy supported by Russia, China and most of the world's emerging economies. The advantages are just to numerous then to be locked away in a club that today is welcoming Serbs to sacrifice their soul. It is the time for strong leadership and unfortunately tinkering and dilly dallying with NATO membership sends a cowardly submissive message, things obviously can change but not to learn from the past is an expensive exercise just look at the last years in Ukraine. If the US changes it's stance on Kosovo and works in partnership with Russia, Serbia in my opinion can then seriously ask the question. As for the Russian minister's comments they seem to be directed at give the people the say, and we are not favoring this idea but it is your choice. When the US does this it is called Democracy funny to see some pro US supporters criticize this but that is Russia's approach nowadays welcoming change.

Why all this fuss around here?

The man is right: Serbia cannot eneter Nato with (or without losing) Kosovo.

As well true is that Serbia cannot be the russian puppet as Russia wants and still keep Kosovo. (but that's something way beyond Rogozin's intellectual capabilities when making this kind of statements)

PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)
(Milan, 8 February 2010 18:25)
It is true that Kosovo is a protectorate, there was an agreement for supervised independence there are no surprises there--the only ones that seem to be confused are those who believe they are on an equal playing field with Russia. And able to make demands on Russia.

Peggy I understand your position but do you understand mine? Serbia must go in the direction that benefits her most. The mistake would be to tie the mast to one side and then be exploited by that one side. Serbia is not Jugoslavija, but it has a duty to its citizens to do the best it can.

As you say 'nobody gets unconditional support' Russia / USA / EU is no different.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
=========================

Bgannon, I not only understand your point of view and I even agree with you. Where we disagree is which direction is the right one for Serbia to take. Which country do we trust more than the other.
Correct me if I am wrong but I sense that you trust US more and would rather hitch your wagon to them.

Serbia has no political muscle to flex so Serbia has to give certain concessions to the big guy. Since we both agree on that one as well, it's only a matter of which big guy do we bow to.

Just think for a moment where we would be without Russia's support. I know you said that Serbia has the law on her side but without Russia's influence we wouldn't even get a hearing at ICJ. What good is the law if we have no access to it?
Without Russia there would be no veto in the UN. What would stop Kosovo being recognised there as well?

Russia has put their money where their mouth is and invested in Serbia.

Now let's look at what the US has done for Serbia so far.
I think I will leave that list for you to write up.

So Zoran we should not listen or trust what our people want in a referendum and we should not listen to our government either. We don't trust democracy! And yet according to you the Russian government is above the Serbian government and the Serbian people? We should trust them! Thank you Russia. Hah, thats a joke isn't it? Russia is suffering from the same disease of democracy or lack of it, as all the other countries in the international system. Frankly I find it embarassing to see you on bended knee in thanks for people in a system that by its very nature is laughing at you.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
--
As usual you create some story in your head and slot me into it. You don't make sense.
==
Zoran Yes, I don't particularly believe in democracy but I know that our elected officials are afraid of their people. I trust the elite of another country even less, because we can't influence them. So even though I think a referendum on NATO is a waste of time it is preferable to have our own people to decide than a foreign government.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
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We don't need a referendum, we already know what the Serbian people think about NATO. I repeat, it is an insult to even consider it.
==
Why shouldn't we have a referendum on EU? What has the EU to do with this topic? To use your (unhelpful) logic if we don't have a referendum on NATO then why should we have one on the EU? Great argument Zoran, not very constructive though.
(bganon, 8 February 2010 00:43)
--
I am using your logic bganon. You mentioned once it was pointless having a referendum in Serbia regarding EU membership because it is well supported. Well, you'll get even more people rejecting NATO than supporting the EU so there is even less point having one.

Matthew, did you ever consider that NATO created Otpor from the beginning? They funded the "Target" t-shirts and their activities. I mean, how else could they create an opposition that would eventually be used to remove Milosevic?

Controlling both the supports and opposition is the ideal position isn't it? I have seen evidence of the DS attempting to control both the pro-EU and anti-EU groups here in Belgrade. The easiest people to manipulate are normally the "educated youth". Universities are a good place to start.

PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)
(Milan, 8 February 2010 18:25)

Now compare this to being a protectorate of Serbia which will be a protectorate of Russia which will be a protectorate (at least economically) of EU.

China has a veto too guys, they're on our side as well, even if they are not as vocal about it.

Dragan, I was in Belgrade Spring of 2001. Trust me it was NATO damage that caught my eye. Parliment was all fixed up by then. Serbs like to destroy things in colorful ways. Check out Belgrade during a sports championship! I have...

As usual Zoran you did not refute anything I wrote, rather you avoided answering it. Feel free, tell me that the Russian government is somehow enlightened, immune from the distrust of democracy that we share. Do you think about that when on bended knee in praise to them?

I understand that you have more respect for the Russian government than the Serbian one. Correct me if I'm wrong. I understand that you support their view on NATO and I understand that you don't want the Serbian people to vote on that issue. As I made clear the Serbian people and their government should make decisions that concern them.

And on this issue you mention - a referendum on the EU! How about a referendum on electoral reform? Better still a national debate on whether the sun goes round the earth or vice versa. I find your arguments mind boggling sometimes, but they share one common theme, to avoid tackling an issue head on or to derail to talk about certain national issues that you have a bee in your bonnet about.

'China has a veto too guys, they're on our side as well, even if they are not as vocal about it.'

Matthew, of course China is on our side, so is most of the world, and so are most of the citizens of the countries that recognized in fact (nobody asked them). However, without Russia's very forceful rebuke of Kosovo independence, China would would have stepped aside and abstained - Serbia is not that important to China but with Russia it is blood and belonging. Face it, without Russia and their veto we were doomed.
Speaking of China, I hope you got a chance to look at the Chinese embassy in ruins like I did. It is right in the middle of a residential area with apartment buildings VERY close by. That just goes to show you how much the US and NATO care about Serbian lives. These are the same people who now pretend to be our friends and look out for our interests. No thanks, I'll stick with the Russians.

"NATO created Otpor from the beginning? They funded the "Target" t-shirts...(Zoran, 8 February 2010 20:22)"
So NATO told Optor to protest the NATO bombing by standing on bridges NATO targeted? NATO funded the Target signs?
Fascinating theory, but incredibly strange to say the least. Where do you find this sort of information?
Do you know any Optor members? Have you spoken to any of them about this protest? I have a lot of friends who were there in Belgrade during this time period.
I will let you in on a little secret if you promise not to tell anyone. Optor folks love Kosovo as much as any Serb, and surprise, surprise, I don't know a single one that supported the NATO bombing (I'm sure they likely exist, but not any I know). Maybe I didn't talk to the "right" Optor members.
If I happen to find any of them that were on NATO's payroll during that time, I'll be sure to ask them about it.
Most Optor members I knew really just hated Milosevic and that pretty much was their main motivation, but then again what do I know, I'm basing all my opinions on actually talking to people who were there. I'm sure you know far more about what the members of Optor were thinking at the time.
"Speaking of China, I hope you got a chance to look at the Chinese embassy in ruins like I did. (Dragan, 8 February 2010 20:10)"
Yup, I most certainly did. Got pictures of it right after the bombing. I think you guys are confused, I think I made it very plain that I hate NATO, I called them a "dangerous rogue organization, spiraling out of control with no real purpose except to serve as the bludgeon of the West."
Personally, I don't want Serbia to be the lacky of either the West OR the East. I love Russians, I love Russia, I love Putin, I think he's a great leader.
You defeatists think we could not go forward without Russia. I say to you that you're blind and have no confidence in our cause. We will prevail because we're on the side of what's right and just.
I'm in it for the long haul, even if it takes another 500 years.
Those of you who think we should make sacrfices for momentary political goals are foolish. That sort of cowering makes us look weak.

Serbia has no political muscle to flex so Serbia has to give certain concessions to the big guy. Since we both agree on that one as well, it's only a matter of which big guy do we bow to.
(Peggy, 8 February 2010 02:39)
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“At first we were confused. The East thought that we were West while the West considered us to be East. Some of us misunderstood our place in the clash of currents so they cried that we belong to neither side and others that we belong exclusively to one side or the other. But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us and here on earth--no one.” —St. Sava to Irenaeus, 13th Century

There is no chance Serbia will join NATO- although the current government is Pro western: even they cannot forget what is left all over serbia after the so called peace keeping group attacked! Serbia does not need to part of Nato to be part of teh EU

If you believe Serbia will ever function as a partner to Russia, you are very naive. Serbia can be a protectorate of Russia "with conditions".
(pss, 8 February 2010 17:10)
PSS - At this moment - only protectorate in Europe is pseudoindependent Kosovo ;)

"And on this issue you mention - a referendum on the EU! How about a referendum on electoral reform? Better still a national debate on whether the sun goes round the earth or vice versa. I find your arguments mind boggling sometimes, but they share one common theme, to avoid tackling an issue head on or to derail to talk about certain national issues that you have a bee in your bonnet about."
(bganon, 8 February 2010 19:08)

========================

Now look who is trying to muddy the waters in order not to tackle the issues brought forward by people you don't agree with.

Stop exaggerating. What's this about earth the the sun stuff?
We all have different opinions and you seem very angry that you cannot change other people's opinions to match yours, hence the sarcasm.
We all want what is best for Serbia. What most of us are saying is that following Russia's lead and respecting Russia enough not to poke her in the eye IS what is best for Serbia. Russia has done a lot for Serbia and if they ask us not to join NATO, an organisation determined to keep Russia down, then we should oblige. They are not going to bomb us if we don't, unlike some others who you seem to want to join. Withdrawing their support is fair enough. One hand washes the other. We withdraw support for Russia by joining NATO and they withdraw their support for us. What else would you expect?

bganon, my friend, did you read what Sv. Sava said?

"But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us and here on earth--no one.”

Here, let me break it down:

1. But I tell you Ireneus we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East
--
Here is good background on Sv. Sava's point. Check http://www.deltax.net/bissett/western.htm

2. to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us
--
We acknowledge only God and his message of peace and love. Lets work towards this and we will prosper.

3. and here on earth--no one.
--
We do not bow to the East or West. We bow only to God.

Now lets consider the choice Russia has given us. Do we work towards keeping our province, the heart of our religion, in a way that is acceptable - though peaceful negotiations. It is Russia who continues to support an agreement acceptable to all.

or

Do we join (in your words) a killing machine. The side that has ruled out negotiations and wants us on our knees.

Hmm, now is that a difficult choice? Do we need a referendum on that? I thank Russia for making the choice so clear.

As for the EU, if we are going to give up our sovereignty then I think we need to have a proper debate and put it to a referendum. Lets give the people the truth and lets allow them to decide.

Miri, Pss - Serbia is ANY protectorate - nevermind, american, european or russian. Serbia is proud independent and NEUTRAL state. Mayby for You - being protectorate or colony is good solution, but not for real independent state like Republic of Serbia.

So NATO told Optor to protest the NATO bombing by standing on bridges NATO targeted? NATO funded the Target signs?
Fascinating theory, but incredibly strange to say the least. Where do you find this sort of information?
(Matthew, 9 February 2010 00:38)
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I really am surprised that even after it was admitted being a "NATO" creation, people still support Otpor. Otpor was created in Sept 2008, well before NATO's bombing. They were on bridges in Belgrade, not Novi Sad (where they were being bombed). Here are some details:

Otpor was a recipient of substantial funds from U.S. government affiliated organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), International Republican Institute (IRI), and US Agency for International Development (USAID).

Paul B. McCarthy from the Washington-based NED stated that Otpor received the majority of US$3 million spent by NED in Serbia from September 1998 until October 2000.

Just how much of the US$25 million, appropriated in the year 2000 by USAID, for the purposes of bringing down Milošević, went to Otpor is not clear. Donald L. Pressley, the assistant administrator at USAID said that several hundred thousand dollars were given to Otpor directly for "demonstration-support material, like T-shirts and stickers".

A group of activists made one trip to Budapest in neighbouring Hungary in June 2000 to attend a lecture by retired US Army Col. Robert Helvey, a colleague of Sharp, who was later portrayed as the "creator" of Otpor.

Here, check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor

Just another NATO creation and most of them are now part of the DS.