“Patriarch Irinej insults Islam”

Serbian Patriarch Irinej is absolutely right in his statement there is no lies about what he says.

I am waiting for the tsunami of hate comments by the usual Serb-haters (who like to associate themselves with Islam only when it suits them).

tom perhaps he is right but EVERY community / seems to do exactly the same thing in Balkans. For that reason there is no reason to single out Muslums.

there is no reason to single out Muslums.
(bganon, 28 January 2010 18:09)

You are right but looking at some measures that had to be taken in EU lately, last one being in France, they have a tendency of expensionism beyond what we are ready to accept.

So what are they going to do if they don't like the reply?

Blow up a church?

"We are the religion of peace and if you don't agree with us we will kill you!"

So what are they going to do if they don't like the reply?

Blow up a church?

"We are the religion of peace and if you don't agree with us we will kill you!"
(joe, 28 January 2010 19:58)

Yes, just like Theo Van Gogh or the ediotrs who printed the prophet Mohammed cartoon... "How dare you say we are not tolerant! We will riot and kill to prove that we are!"

Patrarch Irinej is declaring war to Kosovo and Islam. It appears that he is the clone of Milosevic and with him in power Balkan is prone to new conflict

Unfortunately, the Patriarch is right in his comments about practitioners of Islam. In small numbers they are tolerable, but once the numbers increase there are demands – ask the people in the UK; it has a group that demands the implementation of Sharia law in that country. They planned to hold a demonstration late last year in London with 5,000 followers.
It is sad to say that there is very little tolerance to any other religion in countries which are dominated by Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia; who dares to practice Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism in that state or for that matter how many churches exist in that country – people working have to practice their religion in secret and behind closed doors otherwise it’s prison.

“It is completely clear that this statement calls for genocide, because it undoubtedly shows that Muslims are acceptable to the patriarch only when they are in minority and when they live with their heads bowed down,” this Islamic community said

-- Huh??? Genocide?? It's one thing to be offended. It's quite another to take it that out of proportion.

Patriarch Irinej appears to be worse than Milosevic. Balkan wars with him may look not to distant in future.

Is he among those who suppose to unite people in region or call for division which would ultimately lead to war?

What a terrible choice for Patriarch!!
(pino, 28 January 2010 21:30)

Ohh he's much worse Pino.

Just remember that the K-ALbs could have voted Milosevic out of office many times if they had wanted too. Those people you call the "leaders" of Kosovo have set you up on a roller-coaster ride that only goes down.

"It is sad to say that there is very little tolerance to any other religion in countries which are dominated by Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia; who dares to practice Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism"
sj

You are absolutely right! Another thing is that a muslim will be punished by death if he/she converts to Christianity. However, not the other way around.

Its unfortunate, but the truth hurts. As a very non-tolerant religion with expansionist goals - which always fail; the said Religion is slowly beginning to see its corners and boundaries cut in their abilities in Europe. The Minaret issue in Switzerland, the ban on veils/burkas in France (only the beginning), new measures in Holland and UK...slowy their aspirations are being crushed again. Europe didn't see it initially as a trojan horse, but after so many years its waking up, maybe for France its too late, but others its not.

I didn't read the insult but idont agree about any insult to any religon,if he wants todiscuss any subject in islam am ready to cleer it to him,i want him to tell me firist what he know about ISLAM?

"if you expect a tsunami in your press,that meems that you do not know your islamic communauty and islam:But i am sure that we do know to report this statement to islamic countries.
(lili, 28 January 2010 19:35)"

No Lili, I meant a tsunami of insults that have been posted on B92 the past few days on every article that had to do with Patriarch Irinej. I am sure that all you boys and girls have hot lines to various capitals in Islamic countries and lots of influence. I doubt that his comments will not change the minds in many Islamic countries that have decided not to recognize Kosovo's UDI. So I do not expect that the Arab League of countries like Indonesia will turn 180 degrees. In Serbia like in most countries state and church are separated and it is complete rubbish to call Patriarch Irinej a new Milosevic or whatever he has been called. At least the Serbian Orthodox Church is not into the conversion business unlike some other popular religions.

“Islam’s philosophy was that Muslims, when they are in small numbers, can behave well and be fair, but that once they become superior, they start to exert pressure”

THAT,S RIGHT!!! HE SAID IT ALL!! BRAVO AND GOD BLESS YOU

This word 'insult' is abused.

In islam, the idea of apostasy carries with it a death threat. That is a very serious 'insult' to any person who intelligently rejects the concept of religious faith as being pointless, false, bigoted, narrow, etc..

Can you insult a religion? I think only persons can be insulted, not things. I question islam, as I question christianity. Just because patriarchs and mullahs wear religious clothes, take serious attitudes, claim truth, etc., does not mean that they should not be questioned. Just because people believe - that does not make them right.

They have no right to claim to be 'insulted' when someone has a different view from theirs. I challenge the notion that religions should have some sort of 'sacred' defence - if anything I challenge the very basis if their existence. There is a certain pomposity from those who hide behind the word 'insult'.

Groupings based on various religious 'clubs' mean that one group can claim it is insulted by the other. It sounds very serious, but given the groupings themselves are based on conflicting artificial constructs what this actually means is that someone who is wrong does not like being told it.

In this case I think that both sides are wrong. The chances of a god existing are about zero, the word 'faith' itself implies lack of certain knowledge. Creation myths were a main justification for religion, but now understanding of the natural nature of creation removes the requirement for religious explanation. Religion has a historical basis deriving from lack of knowledge, and has a pompousness because it seeks to rule groups of people. There is every reason why they should be questioned if they attempt to impose their ideas.

My questioning of them is not an 'insult' - it is an out and out factual challenge.

Religions seem to set the agenda too much - 9/11 in particular was an effective publicity stunt.

I think the balance needs to be redressed. Because religions have been getting a disproportionate press I think that it is right that someone stands up and points out that they may not have a legitimate basis.

Patriarch Irinej appears to be worse than Milosevic. Balkan wars with him may look not to distant in future.

Is he among those who suppose to unite people in region or call for division which would ultimately lead to war?

What a terrible choice for Patriarch!!

if you expect a tsunami in your press,that meems that you do not know your islamic communauty and islam:But i am sure that we do know to report this statement to islamic countries.

It is a shame that people are taking such offense to this statement. The statement it self is true, but only part of the statement. In full the statement could read something like "any different group is tolerable in small amounts, but once they get larger...". This isn't simply confined to the groups of the Balkans, or Europe, but it seems to be a sickness built into society.

And what was the name of that predominantly muslim country forbidding it's Christian minority to use the word "Allah"? Am I making it up? If I am not, than they ARE worse than (already dead) Milosevic in.

This is why religion sucks

And what was the name of that predominantly muslim country forbidding it's Christian minority to use the word "Allah"? Am I making it up? If I am not, than they ARE worse than (already dead) Milosevic in.
(Logic, 29 January 2010 15:16)

You're thinking of Malaysia.
As for Milosevic it is safe to say pretty much all Moslem leaders are worse than him. Milosevic was an opportunistic career politician that used conflict to further his own agenda but I don't think deep down he was as lunatic as some of these leaders in far flung Moslem nations.

How typical of any religion, it stirs-up hatred, bigotry and suspicion on all sides and it's been like this for the past 2000 years, from the bloody crusades, the catholic-protestant wars, the vatican inquisitions, the Nazi holocaust, the israel-palestinian conflict to the war on terror we have today.

Religion has no place in a modern and progressive world, the quicker we get rid of it and its superstitious and divisive nature the quicker we have peace and harmony!

"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try...
...Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"... JL

Islam’s philosophy was that Muslims, when they are in small numbers, can behave well and be fair, but that once they become superior, they start to exert pressure”

THAT,S RIGHT!!! HE SAID IT ALL!! BRAVO AND GOD BLESS YOU
(Nick The Greek, 29 January 2010 13:03)

As an orthodox I should point out that islam is the fastest and most populous religion in the world. So there is more moslems than christinas in the world.

As much I don't like the Patriarch he is right when it comes to Islam in general but I don't think that's true of Balkan Islam which by comparison was very tolerant.
Unfortunately with the Yugoslav Wars things got out of control so Moslems may have become more radicalized.

And the conflict in Kosova is purely ethnic not religious despite efforts by Serbs to turn it into a crusade.

In Serbia like in most countries state and church are separated and it is complete rubbish to call Patriarch Irinej a new Milosevic or whatever he has been called. At least the Serbian Orthodox Church is not into the conversion business unlike some other popular religions.
(Milan, 28 January 2010 23:57)

Milan, it is nonsense that in Serbia state and religion are separated. They are very much in sync with each other. Posters here say that Orthodoxy is the very fabric of Serbdom, and religion is not in Serbian politics? Come on. If Serbia (or other entities) was secular then history would've been very different today. And FYI all religions are in conversion business.

Religion has NO part in politics, NONE, ZERO. Either Islam or Christianity have forever been in war over ideologies. They're in war within themselves see different sects (Catholics-Orthodox-Protestants-etc, Shiite-Sunni-Bektashi etc.) Religion shouldn't act and rule a humans' conscience and life. All these resolutions against other religions/ethnicities have been a cause of friction because of an non education but a hatred about others that are different from you. When will come the day that religion had no part of our lives.

All creatures want to believe in something bigger than themselves. They cannot live without blind obedience. And to scape the pressure of that trust, those in whom faith is placed in turn look for someone higher than themselves. And then those people in turn look for someone even stronger. That is how all Kings are born. That is how all Gods are born.

Mikel,

Forget the Masonic shenanigans, Religion unfortunately does play a veiled or visible hand in all aspects of life, including democracy and ideals the west adheres to. Read within the fabric and see the Judeo-Christian traits...everything from charity, trust, freedom of conscience, forgiveness, love, honour etc. A society without Religion, will be a society without values and morals.

Mikel,

Forget the Masonic shenanigans, Religion unfortunately does play a veiled or visible hand in all aspects of life, including democracy and ideals the west adheres to. Read within the fabric and see the Judeo-Christian traits...everything from charity, trust, freedom of conscience, forgiveness, love, honour etc. A society without Religion, will be a society without values and morals.
(Dragan, Toronto, 30 January 2010 13:32)

Dragan,

Some religion aspects do apply in democratic and humanistic values. BUT it is religion that creates blindness on our hearts. That is one of the main aspects that separate us from really respecting one another. Listen I do not want to get into religious arguments because frankly I had enough at this point of time. I've had too many debates and seminars about this topic. But I will ask you one thing. Why would one believe in some sort of higher power to guide his/her life, since WE as humans make the choices that will ultimately shape us?

As an orthodox I should point out that islam is the fastest and most populous religion in the world. So there is more moslems than christinas in the world.
(Une, 30 January 2010 02:40)

So what are you trying to say?
Are you saying that Islam is better because there is more of them?
It just means that they use the same way all over the world to take over. Breed the rest out.

It is easy to take statements out of context and misunderstand or misrepresent them. As a matter of historical fact, the statement attributed to Patriarch Irinej is accurate. But let's hear the context in which the statement was made. He may have been calling fellow Christians to remember history and try hard to have a positive dialogue with Muslims. The aggressive stance of the Muslims in this instance appears to be looking for a provocation, rather than seeking peace. What do the Muslims want, peace or a provocation?

Serbian Patriarch Irinej is absolutely right in his statement there is no lies about what he says.

Patriarch Irinej appears to be worse than Milosevic. Balkan wars with him may look not to distant in future.

Is he among those who suppose to unite people in region or call for division which would ultimately lead to war?

What a terrible choice for Patriarch!!

Patrarch Irinej is declaring war to Kosovo and Islam. It appears that he is the clone of Milosevic and with him in power Balkan is prone to new conflict

if you expect a tsunami in your press,that meems that you do not know your islamic communauty and islam:But i am sure that we do know to report this statement to islamic countries.

I didn't read the insult but idont agree about any insult to any religon,if he wants todiscuss any subject in islam am ready to cleer it to him,i want him to tell me firist what he know about ISLAM?

tom perhaps he is right but EVERY community / seems to do exactly the same thing in Balkans. For that reason there is no reason to single out Muslums.

I am waiting for the tsunami of hate comments by the usual Serb-haters (who like to associate themselves with Islam only when it suits them).

there is no reason to single out Muslums.
(bganon, 28 January 2010 18:09)

You are right but looking at some measures that had to be taken in EU lately, last one being in France, they have a tendency of expensionism beyond what we are ready to accept.

So what are they going to do if they don't like the reply?

Blow up a church?

"We are the religion of peace and if you don't agree with us we will kill you!"

Unfortunately, the Patriarch is right in his comments about practitioners of Islam. In small numbers they are tolerable, but once the numbers increase there are demands – ask the people in the UK; it has a group that demands the implementation of Sharia law in that country. They planned to hold a demonstration late last year in London with 5,000 followers.
It is sad to say that there is very little tolerance to any other religion in countries which are dominated by Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia; who dares to practice Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism in that state or for that matter how many churches exist in that country – people working have to practice their religion in secret and behind closed doors otherwise it’s prison.

Patriarch Irinej appears to be worse than Milosevic. Balkan wars with him may look not to distant in future.

Is he among those who suppose to unite people in region or call for division which would ultimately lead to war?

What a terrible choice for Patriarch!!
(pino, 28 January 2010 21:30)

Ohh he's much worse Pino.

Just remember that the K-ALbs could have voted Milosevic out of office many times if they had wanted too. Those people you call the "leaders" of Kosovo have set you up on a roller-coaster ride that only goes down.

"It is sad to say that there is very little tolerance to any other religion in countries which are dominated by Islam. Just look at Saudi Arabia; who dares to practice Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism"
sj

You are absolutely right! Another thing is that a muslim will be punished by death if he/she converts to Christianity. However, not the other way around.

It is a shame that people are taking such offense to this statement. The statement it self is true, but only part of the statement. In full the statement could read something like "any different group is tolerable in small amounts, but once they get larger...". This isn't simply confined to the groups of the Balkans, or Europe, but it seems to be a sickness built into society.

This is why religion sucks

"if you expect a tsunami in your press,that meems that you do not know your islamic communauty and islam:But i am sure that we do know to report this statement to islamic countries.
(lili, 28 January 2010 19:35)"

No Lili, I meant a tsunami of insults that have been posted on B92 the past few days on every article that had to do with Patriarch Irinej. I am sure that all you boys and girls have hot lines to various capitals in Islamic countries and lots of influence. I doubt that his comments will not change the minds in many Islamic countries that have decided not to recognize Kosovo's UDI. So I do not expect that the Arab League of countries like Indonesia will turn 180 degrees. In Serbia like in most countries state and church are separated and it is complete rubbish to call Patriarch Irinej a new Milosevic or whatever he has been called. At least the Serbian Orthodox Church is not into the conversion business unlike some other popular religions.

“It is completely clear that this statement calls for genocide, because it undoubtedly shows that Muslims are acceptable to the patriarch only when they are in minority and when they live with their heads bowed down,” this Islamic community said

-- Huh??? Genocide?? It's one thing to be offended. It's quite another to take it that out of proportion.

This word 'insult' is abused.

In islam, the idea of apostasy carries with it a death threat. That is a very serious 'insult' to any person who intelligently rejects the concept of religious faith as being pointless, false, bigoted, narrow, etc..

Can you insult a religion? I think only persons can be insulted, not things. I question islam, as I question christianity. Just because patriarchs and mullahs wear religious clothes, take serious attitudes, claim truth, etc., does not mean that they should not be questioned. Just because people believe - that does not make them right.

They have no right to claim to be 'insulted' when someone has a different view from theirs. I challenge the notion that religions should have some sort of 'sacred' defence - if anything I challenge the very basis if their existence. There is a certain pomposity from those who hide behind the word 'insult'.

Groupings based on various religious 'clubs' mean that one group can claim it is insulted by the other. It sounds very serious, but given the groupings themselves are based on conflicting artificial constructs what this actually means is that someone who is wrong does not like being told it.

In this case I think that both sides are wrong. The chances of a god existing are about zero, the word 'faith' itself implies lack of certain knowledge. Creation myths were a main justification for religion, but now understanding of the natural nature of creation removes the requirement for religious explanation. Religion has a historical basis deriving from lack of knowledge, and has a pompousness because it seeks to rule groups of people. There is every reason why they should be questioned if they attempt to impose their ideas.

My questioning of them is not an 'insult' - it is an out and out factual challenge.

Religions seem to set the agenda too much - 9/11 in particular was an effective publicity stunt.

I think the balance needs to be redressed. Because religions have been getting a disproportionate press I think that it is right that someone stands up and points out that they may not have a legitimate basis.

So what are they going to do if they don't like the reply?

Blow up a church?

"We are the religion of peace and if you don't agree with us we will kill you!"
(joe, 28 January 2010 19:58)

Yes, just like Theo Van Gogh or the ediotrs who printed the prophet Mohammed cartoon... "How dare you say we are not tolerant! We will riot and kill to prove that we are!"

As an orthodox I should point out that islam is the fastest and most populous religion in the world. So there is more moslems than christinas in the world.
(Une, 30 January 2010 02:40)

So what are you trying to say?
Are you saying that Islam is better because there is more of them?
It just means that they use the same way all over the world to take over. Breed the rest out.

“Islam’s philosophy was that Muslims, when they are in small numbers, can behave well and be fair, but that once they become superior, they start to exert pressure”

THAT,S RIGHT!!! HE SAID IT ALL!! BRAVO AND GOD BLESS YOU

In Serbia like in most countries state and church are separated and it is complete rubbish to call Patriarch Irinej a new Milosevic or whatever he has been called. At least the Serbian Orthodox Church is not into the conversion business unlike some other popular religions.
(Milan, 28 January 2010 23:57)

Milan, it is nonsense that in Serbia state and religion are separated. They are very much in sync with each other. Posters here say that Orthodoxy is the very fabric of Serbdom, and religion is not in Serbian politics? Come on. If Serbia (or other entities) was secular then history would've been very different today. And FYI all religions are in conversion business.

Religion has NO part in politics, NONE, ZERO. Either Islam or Christianity have forever been in war over ideologies. They're in war within themselves see different sects (Catholics-Orthodox-Protestants-etc, Shiite-Sunni-Bektashi etc.) Religion shouldn't act and rule a humans' conscience and life. All these resolutions against other religions/ethnicities have been a cause of friction because of an non education but a hatred about others that are different from you. When will come the day that religion had no part of our lives.

All creatures want to believe in something bigger than themselves. They cannot live without blind obedience. And to scape the pressure of that trust, those in whom faith is placed in turn look for someone higher than themselves. And then those people in turn look for someone even stronger. That is how all Kings are born. That is how all Gods are born.

And what was the name of that predominantly muslim country forbidding it's Christian minority to use the word "Allah"? Am I making it up? If I am not, than they ARE worse than (already dead) Milosevic in.
(Logic, 29 January 2010 15:16)

You're thinking of Malaysia.
As for Milosevic it is safe to say pretty much all Moslem leaders are worse than him. Milosevic was an opportunistic career politician that used conflict to further his own agenda but I don't think deep down he was as lunatic as some of these leaders in far flung Moslem nations.

It is easy to take statements out of context and misunderstand or misrepresent them. As a matter of historical fact, the statement attributed to Patriarch Irinej is accurate. But let's hear the context in which the statement was made. He may have been calling fellow Christians to remember history and try hard to have a positive dialogue with Muslims. The aggressive stance of the Muslims in this instance appears to be looking for a provocation, rather than seeking peace. What do the Muslims want, peace or a provocation?

How typical of any religion, it stirs-up hatred, bigotry and suspicion on all sides and it's been like this for the past 2000 years, from the bloody crusades, the catholic-protestant wars, the vatican inquisitions, the Nazi holocaust, the israel-palestinian conflict to the war on terror we have today.

Religion has no place in a modern and progressive world, the quicker we get rid of it and its superstitious and divisive nature the quicker we have peace and harmony!

"Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try...
...Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace"... JL

Its unfortunate, but the truth hurts. As a very non-tolerant religion with expansionist goals - which always fail; the said Religion is slowly beginning to see its corners and boundaries cut in their abilities in Europe. The Minaret issue in Switzerland, the ban on veils/burkas in France (only the beginning), new measures in Holland and UK...slowy their aspirations are being crushed again. Europe didn't see it initially as a trojan horse, but after so many years its waking up, maybe for France its too late, but others its not.

As much I don't like the Patriarch he is right when it comes to Islam in general but I don't think that's true of Balkan Islam which by comparison was very tolerant.
Unfortunately with the Yugoslav Wars things got out of control so Moslems may have become more radicalized.

And the conflict in Kosova is purely ethnic not religious despite efforts by Serbs to turn it into a crusade.

Islam’s philosophy was that Muslims, when they are in small numbers, can behave well and be fair, but that once they become superior, they start to exert pressure”

THAT,S RIGHT!!! HE SAID IT ALL!! BRAVO AND GOD BLESS YOU
(Nick The Greek, 29 January 2010 13:03)

As an orthodox I should point out that islam is the fastest and most populous religion in the world. So there is more moslems than christinas in the world.

Mikel,

Forget the Masonic shenanigans, Religion unfortunately does play a veiled or visible hand in all aspects of life, including democracy and ideals the west adheres to. Read within the fabric and see the Judeo-Christian traits...everything from charity, trust, freedom of conscience, forgiveness, love, honour etc. A society without Religion, will be a society without values and morals.

And what was the name of that predominantly muslim country forbidding it's Christian minority to use the word "Allah"? Am I making it up? If I am not, than they ARE worse than (already dead) Milosevic in.

Mikel,

Forget the Masonic shenanigans, Religion unfortunately does play a veiled or visible hand in all aspects of life, including democracy and ideals the west adheres to. Read within the fabric and see the Judeo-Christian traits...everything from charity, trust, freedom of conscience, forgiveness, love, honour etc. A society without Religion, will be a society without values and morals.
(Dragan, Toronto, 30 January 2010 13:32)

Dragan,

Some religion aspects do apply in democratic and humanistic values. BUT it is religion that creates blindness on our hearts. That is one of the main aspects that separate us from really respecting one another. Listen I do not want to get into religious arguments because frankly I had enough at this point of time. I've had too many debates and seminars about this topic. But I will ask you one thing. Why would one believe in some sort of higher power to guide his/her life, since WE as humans make the choices that will ultimately shape us?