I applaud your post and couldnt' of said it better. Stipe Mesic is directly responsible for the break up of the form Jugoslavija in collusion with Franjo Tudjman who was jailed by Tito numerous times along with Alija Izetbegovic. They were the extremists in the former Yugoslavia and strove to break up and dissolve the country.
In Slovenia, the first two casualties were two Slovanian pilots of the JNA who were shot down by the Slovanian militia at the orders of the the Slovenian President Kucman.
To be fair, the Serb leaders particularly of Krajina failed to negotiate but only demand. Both Babich and then Martic failed to take Slobodan Milosevic advice and take the autonomy offer that was on the table from Tudjman. Now the Serbs have been erased from Croatia and yes, the Ustasha have completed their tasks and continue to be glorifed in Croatia.
Can the moderate Croatian citizen fight against the revival of the Ustasha remains to be seen. Many tried against the Nazi Ustasha and failed and joined the gallows along with the Serbs, Jews, Roman's and Gypsies.
On this day of rememberance of the holocaust, we must remember the genocides of the Jews, Serbs, Greeks, Roma's and Armenians but the hatred has begun again under the disguise of the EU.
It is not only the Serbs who have been demonised, but now the Greeks whereby articles are being written on how the Jews were eradicated in Greece blaming the Greek religious figures and people. Nothing can be further from the truth! The Greeks saved many Jews and the Greek Patriachiate at great peril spoke against the holocaust. Of course, Serbian Bishop Nikola Velimirovic and Patrichiate German were interned in Dacau by the Nazi's during WWII. Meanwhile, Catholic Bishop Stepinac of Croatia stood bye and watched the slaugher of not only Serbian Orthodox Christians at the hands of the Ustasaha, but also Croatians Catholics who spoke against the Ustasha regime.
If your grandparent’s generation suffered a real genocide and it started happening again, you’d pick up a gun too. I realize it may be difficult to fully understand what experiencing a genocide does to a people, but it’s not exactly polite (some might call it racist) to come onto our website and make fun of us for dying en masse during WWII. The estimates from experts range from hundreds of thousands to well over a million Serbs died in Death Camps run by Croatians and Croatian priests.
The sad reality is everywhere we did NOT pick up a gun and fight and win, we were100% ethnically cleansed and have yet to return. Looks like the Ustashe Dream from WWII finally came to fruitrition (Kill 1/3, Convert 1/3, Expell 1/3). Just took them a few decades to finalize the expelling part. I often wonder what happened to all those WWII orphans that were converted. Did they end up being taken out of the country by their fleeing Ustashe adoptive parents only to return to fight their own people in the 1990’s? Regardless, its an interesting topic.
I’m a leftist moderate, I worked with Bosniak youth groups during my time in Bosnia, I am by no means a nationalist by any definition of the word. I routinely call for support for apologies over events like Srebrenica. So when I say something is bias against Serbs, you can damn well believe that it is. My wife’s village is on the front line so I know personally what her brave family endured. No one should have to endure such suffering, regardless of their nationality.
Croatia fought the Bosniaks for half the war and utterly destroyed Mostar. So don’t blame the entire war on Serbs.
If you had any clue what went down in WWII and what Serbs in Croatia experience under Tudjman you’d understand.
Go read some books on WWII in the Balkans, then go read some books that Tudjman wrote about it. Then go talk to some Bosniaks from Mostar.
By the way the Federation in Bosnia has roughly a 2% minority population and declining, RS has a 12% minority population and growing. The reason RS is fairly large is because Serbs are rural farmers and Bosniaks tend to be more educated and packed in citites. It’s key to understand the very basics of the dynamics of Bosnia. Also please explain how Serbia started 4 wars. Slovenia fired first on the JNA and the JNA quickly left, there’s no way you can blame the Slovenian war on Serbia, can you? Do you? Please explain.
@Matthew:
- You obviously know more about rebuilt places of worship destroyed in the early 1990’s conflicts than I do. So please enlighten me as to who funded the reconstruction of Catholic churches destroyed by the rabble fighting in the name of the RSK.
- I mentioned Dubrovnik because bombing it was, as you said, a criminal act, not because I wanted to imply that it suffered as much as Vukovar or that anywhere near 90% of it was destroyed.
- I’m not a Croat, I’m just someone who happens to be sick of listening to those who waged four wars against fellow former Yugoslav citizens in one decade, temporarily occupied an ethnically-cleansed third of Croatia and created an artificially homogenous ethnocratic para-state on 49% of the territory of BiH, etc., moaning time and again about how they’re the real innocent victims, how everyone has always been out to get them, how all the other warring parties were at least as bad as they were and still they’re the one who get all the blame… All this denial and self-pity, this sick state of affairs where numbers and counter-accusations are exchanged instead of sincere apologies.
In his arrogance, Mesic is taking liberty of telling the head of Serbian Church what "he" is expecting to be done, what are the issues that the Serbian Patriarch has to work on! He takes liberty of talking in the name of Serbian community(!) in Croatia - expressing pleasure at the Serbian choice of the Patriarch! But I don't remember Mesic extending Christmas Greetings to the same community in which name he now spoke.
I do remember though, his New Year's Eve "historical" interview in Vienna (oh, Radetzky! all that inspirational foot stomping!) about Serbia being threat to region's peace and stability.
I think this message from mr mesic should be accepted with respect. The age of war is over. Mesic made very harmfull remarks recently-but lets not throw stones in glass houses.
It was a decent and friendly act - as a serb who has lost many relatives in the wars in the balkans I accept his remarks.
Lenard, the Catholic Churches in Krajina have all been rebuilt. Obviously you've never been to Krajina if you're making such statements.
I will say that it seemed like someone cleaned up all the Nazi Swaztika's and Ustashe graffitti off the churches, so maybe that's how Mesic says "Welcome Back". My brother in law's village is still a ghost town though.
AF, for your information most of the Mosques in RS have been rebuilt, I was just there as I said.
As for Dubrovnik AF, my family lived there for hundreds of years. My cousin lives right by the front gate. I saw lots and lots of roof tiles got damaged, but claims that 90% of the city was destroyed is simply BS. My cousin also showed me what hilltop the Croatian paramilitaries were stationed on and it was too close to the city to avoid hitting it. However, I agree, bombing Dubrovnik was a criminal act.
You know, it simply astounds me you Croats are even trying to play the victim card after what you did to your allies in Bosnia and Mostar during the 90's and after the genocide your leaders and priests committed in WWII.
At least I feel badly for what happened to the Bosniaks and I did what I could to heal the rift between us, but you guys just want another war I guess.
Chairman of what? Ha, ha! This guy thinks that Russia will go down on its knees and beg Croatia over the Southstream pipeline. Even better Mesic to move to Belgrade to “keep an eye on Serbia for Russia”. You see Croatia not only has the west as allies it now has Russia on side. I hope you tell your German allies about this change of alliance. I had no idea that Croatia was so important in Europe..
But if it makes you feel good keep on thinking this way, but I know that in two years time there will be no Croats in Bosnia, but RS will still be around.
I was just in Krajina last Spring and the churches were still all burnt out rubble.
No wonder he’s emphasizing that point “with pleasure”…
(Matthew) Yes you are right I seen those Catholic Churches destroyed by rebellious destructive Serbs from 1991-95in Croatian krajina thank you for pointing that out.
Maybe when he starts rebuilding our destroyed churches I’ll believe him, but for now, I ain’t buying it.
(Matthew, 26 January 2010 17:54)
---
Maybe the Croatian authorities will do that once the Serb side has got around to coughing up for all the destroyed Catholic churches (...and mosques in BiH for that matter)? Or for the destruction meted out to cities like Vukovar and Dubrovnik in 1991?
Some nice parting words of wisdom from Mesic, before he moves back to Iran.
(Another Canadian Serb) I heard that he is taking a job as chairman of south stream by Putins nomination. He will be moving to Belgrade to keep an eye on Serbia for Russia and Croatia to keep the Serbs squeakily honest.
Mr Mesic is perfectly able to differentiate, on the one hand, between Croatian Serbs as a legitimate element of the Croatian population that deserves to be respected and, on the other hand, a monstrous creation like the "Republic of Serbland" in neighbouring Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore there's no reason whatsoever to mock his civil words towards this new patriarch only because he finally got around to some straight talk on the above-mentioned entity's continuing attempts at blocking BiH's development as a normal country and securing the fruits of their ethnically-cleansed 1990's conquests...
Mr Mesic is perfectly able to differentiate, on the one hand, between Croatian Serbs as a legitimate element of the Croatian population that deserves to be respected and, on the other hand, a monstrous creation like the "Republic of Serbland" in neighbouring Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore there's no reason whatsoever to mock his civil words towards this new patriarch only because he finally got around to some straight talk on the above-mentioned entity's continuing attempts at blocking BiH's development as a normal country and securing the fruits of their ethnically-cleansed 1990's conquests...
I was just in Krajina last Spring and the churches were still all burnt out rubble.
No wonder he’s emphasizing that point “with pleasure”…
(Matthew) Yes you are right I seen those Catholic Churches destroyed by rebellious destructive Serbs from 1991-95in Croatian krajina thank you for pointing that out.
Maybe when he starts rebuilding our destroyed churches I’ll believe him, but for now, I ain’t buying it.
(Matthew, 26 January 2010 17:54)
---
Maybe the Croatian authorities will do that once the Serb side has got around to coughing up for all the destroyed Catholic churches (...and mosques in BiH for that matter)? Or for the destruction meted out to cities like Vukovar and Dubrovnik in 1991?
Some nice parting words of wisdom from Mesic, before he moves back to Iran.
(Another Canadian Serb) I heard that he is taking a job as chairman of south stream by Putins nomination. He will be moving to Belgrade to keep an eye on Serbia for Russia and Croatia to keep the Serbs squeakily honest.
@Matthew:
- You obviously know more about rebuilt places of worship destroyed in the early 1990’s conflicts than I do. So please enlighten me as to who funded the reconstruction of Catholic churches destroyed by the rabble fighting in the name of the RSK.
- I mentioned Dubrovnik because bombing it was, as you said, a criminal act, not because I wanted to imply that it suffered as much as Vukovar or that anywhere near 90% of it was destroyed.
- I’m not a Croat, I’m just someone who happens to be sick of listening to those who waged four wars against fellow former Yugoslav citizens in one decade, temporarily occupied an ethnically-cleansed third of Croatia and created an artificially homogenous ethnocratic para-state on 49% of the territory of BiH, etc., moaning time and again about how they’re the real innocent victims, how everyone has always been out to get them, how all the other warring parties were at least as bad as they were and still they’re the one who get all the blame… All this denial and self-pity, this sick state of affairs where numbers and counter-accusations are exchanged instead of sincere apologies.
Lenard, the Catholic Churches in Krajina have all been rebuilt. Obviously you've never been to Krajina if you're making such statements.
I will say that it seemed like someone cleaned up all the Nazi Swaztika's and Ustashe graffitti off the churches, so maybe that's how Mesic says "Welcome Back". My brother in law's village is still a ghost town though.
AF, for your information most of the Mosques in RS have been rebuilt, I was just there as I said.
As for Dubrovnik AF, my family lived there for hundreds of years. My cousin lives right by the front gate. I saw lots and lots of roof tiles got damaged, but claims that 90% of the city was destroyed is simply BS. My cousin also showed me what hilltop the Croatian paramilitaries were stationed on and it was too close to the city to avoid hitting it. However, I agree, bombing Dubrovnik was a criminal act.
You know, it simply astounds me you Croats are even trying to play the victim card after what you did to your allies in Bosnia and Mostar during the 90's and after the genocide your leaders and priests committed in WWII.
At least I feel badly for what happened to the Bosniaks and I did what I could to heal the rift between us, but you guys just want another war I guess.
Chairman of what? Ha, ha! This guy thinks that Russia will go down on its knees and beg Croatia over the Southstream pipeline. Even better Mesic to move to Belgrade to “keep an eye on Serbia for Russia”. You see Croatia not only has the west as allies it now has Russia on side. I hope you tell your German allies about this change of alliance. I had no idea that Croatia was so important in Europe..
But if it makes you feel good keep on thinking this way, but I know that in two years time there will be no Croats in Bosnia, but RS will still be around.
In his arrogance, Mesic is taking liberty of telling the head of Serbian Church what "he" is expecting to be done, what are the issues that the Serbian Patriarch has to work on! He takes liberty of talking in the name of Serbian community(!) in Croatia - expressing pleasure at the Serbian choice of the Patriarch! But I don't remember Mesic extending Christmas Greetings to the same community in which name he now spoke.
I do remember though, his New Year's Eve "historical" interview in Vienna (oh, Radetzky! all that inspirational foot stomping!) about Serbia being threat to region's peace and stability.
I applaud your post and couldnt' of said it better. Stipe Mesic is directly responsible for the break up of the form Jugoslavija in collusion with Franjo Tudjman who was jailed by Tito numerous times along with Alija Izetbegovic. They were the extremists in the former Yugoslavia and strove to break up and dissolve the country.
In Slovenia, the first two casualties were two Slovanian pilots of the JNA who were shot down by the Slovanian militia at the orders of the the Slovenian President Kucman.
To be fair, the Serb leaders particularly of Krajina failed to negotiate but only demand. Both Babich and then Martic failed to take Slobodan Milosevic advice and take the autonomy offer that was on the table from Tudjman. Now the Serbs have been erased from Croatia and yes, the Ustasha have completed their tasks and continue to be glorifed in Croatia.
Can the moderate Croatian citizen fight against the revival of the Ustasha remains to be seen. Many tried against the Nazi Ustasha and failed and joined the gallows along with the Serbs, Jews, Roman's and Gypsies.
On this day of rememberance of the holocaust, we must remember the genocides of the Jews, Serbs, Greeks, Roma's and Armenians but the hatred has begun again under the disguise of the EU.
It is not only the Serbs who have been demonised, but now the Greeks whereby articles are being written on how the Jews were eradicated in Greece blaming the Greek religious figures and people. Nothing can be further from the truth! The Greeks saved many Jews and the Greek Patriachiate at great peril spoke against the holocaust. Of course, Serbian Bishop Nikola Velimirovic and Patrichiate German were interned in Dacau by the Nazi's during WWII. Meanwhile, Catholic Bishop Stepinac of Croatia stood bye and watched the slaugher of not only Serbian Orthodox Christians at the hands of the Ustasaha, but also Croatians Catholics who spoke against the Ustasha regime.
If your grandparent’s generation suffered a real genocide and it started happening again, you’d pick up a gun too. I realize it may be difficult to fully understand what experiencing a genocide does to a people, but it’s not exactly polite (some might call it racist) to come onto our website and make fun of us for dying en masse during WWII. The estimates from experts range from hundreds of thousands to well over a million Serbs died in Death Camps run by Croatians and Croatian priests.
The sad reality is everywhere we did NOT pick up a gun and fight and win, we were100% ethnically cleansed and have yet to return. Looks like the Ustashe Dream from WWII finally came to fruitrition (Kill 1/3, Convert 1/3, Expell 1/3). Just took them a few decades to finalize the expelling part. I often wonder what happened to all those WWII orphans that were converted. Did they end up being taken out of the country by their fleeing Ustashe adoptive parents only to return to fight their own people in the 1990’s? Regardless, its an interesting topic.
I’m a leftist moderate, I worked with Bosniak youth groups during my time in Bosnia, I am by no means a nationalist by any definition of the word. I routinely call for support for apologies over events like Srebrenica. So when I say something is bias against Serbs, you can damn well believe that it is. My wife’s village is on the front line so I know personally what her brave family endured. No one should have to endure such suffering, regardless of their nationality.
Croatia fought the Bosniaks for half the war and utterly destroyed Mostar. So don’t blame the entire war on Serbs.
If you had any clue what went down in WWII and what Serbs in Croatia experience under Tudjman you’d understand.
Go read some books on WWII in the Balkans, then go read some books that Tudjman wrote about it. Then go talk to some Bosniaks from Mostar.
By the way the Federation in Bosnia has roughly a 2% minority population and declining, RS has a 12% minority population and growing. The reason RS is fairly large is because Serbs are rural farmers and Bosniaks tend to be more educated and packed in citites. It’s key to understand the very basics of the dynamics of Bosnia. Also please explain how Serbia started 4 wars. Slovenia fired first on the JNA and the JNA quickly left, there’s no way you can blame the Slovenian war on Serbia, can you? Do you? Please explain.
I think this message from mr mesic should be accepted with respect. The age of war is over. Mesic made very harmfull remarks recently-but lets not throw stones in glass houses.
It was a decent and friendly act - as a serb who has lost many relatives in the wars in the balkans I accept his remarks.
Mr Mesic is perfectly able to differentiate, on the one hand, between Croatian Serbs as a legitimate element of the Croatian population that deserves to be respected and, on the other hand, a monstrous creation like the "Republic of Serbland" in neighbouring Bosnia and Herzegovina. Therefore there's no reason whatsoever to mock his civil words towards this new patriarch only because he finally got around to some straight talk on the above-mentioned entity's continuing attempts at blocking BiH's development as a normal country and securing the fruits of their ethnically-cleansed 1990's conquests...
Some nice parting words of wisdom from Mesic, before he moves back to Iran.
(Another Canadian Serb) I heard that he is taking a job as chairman of south stream by Putins nomination. He will be moving to Belgrade to keep an eye on Serbia for Russia and Croatia to keep the Serbs squeakily honest.
Chairman of what? Ha, ha! This guy thinks that Russia will go down on its knees and beg Croatia over the Southstream pipeline. Even better Mesic to move to Belgrade to “keep an eye on Serbia for Russia”. You see Croatia not only has the west as allies it now has Russia on side. I hope you tell your German allies about this change of alliance. I had no idea that Croatia was so important in Europe..
But if it makes you feel good keep on thinking this way, but I know that in two years time there will be no Croats in Bosnia, but RS will still be around.
Maybe when he starts rebuilding our destroyed churches I’ll believe him, but for now, I ain’t buying it.
(Matthew, 26 January 2010 17:54)
---
Maybe the Croatian authorities will do that once the Serb side has got around to coughing up for all the destroyed Catholic churches (...and mosques in BiH for that matter)? Or for the destruction meted out to cities like Vukovar and Dubrovnik in 1991?
I was just in Krajina last Spring and the churches were still all burnt out rubble.
No wonder he’s emphasizing that point “with pleasure”…
(Matthew) Yes you are right I seen those Catholic Churches destroyed by rebellious destructive Serbs from 1991-95in Croatian krajina thank you for pointing that out.
Lenard, the Catholic Churches in Krajina have all been rebuilt. Obviously you've never been to Krajina if you're making such statements.
I will say that it seemed like someone cleaned up all the Nazi Swaztika's and Ustashe graffitti off the churches, so maybe that's how Mesic says "Welcome Back". My brother in law's village is still a ghost town though.
AF, for your information most of the Mosques in RS have been rebuilt, I was just there as I said.
As for Dubrovnik AF, my family lived there for hundreds of years. My cousin lives right by the front gate. I saw lots and lots of roof tiles got damaged, but claims that 90% of the city was destroyed is simply BS. My cousin also showed me what hilltop the Croatian paramilitaries were stationed on and it was too close to the city to avoid hitting it. However, I agree, bombing Dubrovnik was a criminal act.
You know, it simply astounds me you Croats are even trying to play the victim card after what you did to your allies in Bosnia and Mostar during the 90's and after the genocide your leaders and priests committed in WWII.
At least I feel badly for what happened to the Bosniaks and I did what I could to heal the rift between us, but you guys just want another war I guess.
In his arrogance, Mesic is taking liberty of telling the head of Serbian Church what "he" is expecting to be done, what are the issues that the Serbian Patriarch has to work on! He takes liberty of talking in the name of Serbian community(!) in Croatia - expressing pleasure at the Serbian choice of the Patriarch! But I don't remember Mesic extending Christmas Greetings to the same community in which name he now spoke.
I do remember though, his New Year's Eve "historical" interview in Vienna (oh, Radetzky! all that inspirational foot stomping!) about Serbia being threat to region's peace and stability.
If your grandparent’s generation suffered a real genocide and it started happening again, you’d pick up a gun too. I realize it may be difficult to fully understand what experiencing a genocide does to a people, but it’s not exactly polite (some might call it racist) to come onto our website and make fun of us for dying en masse during WWII. The estimates from experts range from hundreds of thousands to well over a million Serbs died in Death Camps run by Croatians and Croatian priests.
The sad reality is everywhere we did NOT pick up a gun and fight and win, we were100% ethnically cleansed and have yet to return. Looks like the Ustashe Dream from WWII finally came to fruitrition (Kill 1/3, Convert 1/3, Expell 1/3). Just took them a few decades to finalize the expelling part. I often wonder what happened to all those WWII orphans that were converted. Did they end up being taken out of the country by their fleeing Ustashe adoptive parents only to return to fight their own people in the 1990’s? Regardless, its an interesting topic.
I’m a leftist moderate, I worked with Bosniak youth groups during my time in Bosnia, I am by no means a nationalist by any definition of the word. I routinely call for support for apologies over events like Srebrenica. So when I say something is bias against Serbs, you can damn well believe that it is. My wife’s village is on the front line so I know personally what her brave family endured. No one should have to endure such suffering, regardless of their nationality.
Croatia fought the Bosniaks for half the war and utterly destroyed Mostar. So don’t blame the entire war on Serbs.
If you had any clue what went down in WWII and what Serbs in Croatia experience under Tudjman you’d understand.
Go read some books on WWII in the Balkans, then go read some books that Tudjman wrote about it. Then go talk to some Bosniaks from Mostar.
By the way the Federation in Bosnia has roughly a 2% minority population and declining, RS has a 12% minority population and growing. The reason RS is fairly large is because Serbs are rural farmers and Bosniaks tend to be more educated and packed in citites. It’s key to understand the very basics of the dynamics of Bosnia. Also please explain how Serbia started 4 wars. Slovenia fired first on the JNA and the JNA quickly left, there’s no way you can blame the Slovenian war on Serbia, can you? Do you? Please explain.
I think this message from mr mesic should be accepted with respect. The age of war is over. Mesic made very harmfull remarks recently-but lets not throw stones in glass houses.
It was a decent and friendly act - as a serb who has lost many relatives in the wars in the balkans I accept his remarks.
@Matthew:
- You obviously know more about rebuilt places of worship destroyed in the early 1990’s conflicts than I do. So please enlighten me as to who funded the reconstruction of Catholic churches destroyed by the rabble fighting in the name of the RSK.
- I mentioned Dubrovnik because bombing it was, as you said, a criminal act, not because I wanted to imply that it suffered as much as Vukovar or that anywhere near 90% of it was destroyed.
- I’m not a Croat, I’m just someone who happens to be sick of listening to those who waged four wars against fellow former Yugoslav citizens in one decade, temporarily occupied an ethnically-cleansed third of Croatia and created an artificially homogenous ethnocratic para-state on 49% of the territory of BiH, etc., moaning time and again about how they’re the real innocent victims, how everyone has always been out to get them, how all the other warring parties were at least as bad as they were and still they’re the one who get all the blame… All this denial and self-pity, this sick state of affairs where numbers and counter-accusations are exchanged instead of sincere apologies.
I applaud your post and couldnt' of said it better. Stipe Mesic is directly responsible for the break up of the form Jugoslavija in collusion with Franjo Tudjman who was jailed by Tito numerous times along with Alija Izetbegovic. They were the extremists in the former Yugoslavia and strove to break up and dissolve the country.
In Slovenia, the first two casualties were two Slovanian pilots of the JNA who were shot down by the Slovanian militia at the orders of the the Slovenian President Kucman.
To be fair, the Serb leaders particularly of Krajina failed to negotiate but only demand. Both Babich and then Martic failed to take Slobodan Milosevic advice and take the autonomy offer that was on the table from Tudjman. Now the Serbs have been erased from Croatia and yes, the Ustasha have completed their tasks and continue to be glorifed in Croatia.
Can the moderate Croatian citizen fight against the revival of the Ustasha remains to be seen. Many tried against the Nazi Ustasha and failed and joined the gallows along with the Serbs, Jews, Roman's and Gypsies.
On this day of rememberance of the holocaust, we must remember the genocides of the Jews, Serbs, Greeks, Roma's and Armenians but the hatred has begun again under the disguise of the EU.
It is not only the Serbs who have been demonised, but now the Greeks whereby articles are being written on how the Jews were eradicated in Greece blaming the Greek religious figures and people. Nothing can be further from the truth! The Greeks saved many Jews and the Greek Patriachiate at great peril spoke against the holocaust. Of course, Serbian Bishop Nikola Velimirovic and Patrichiate German were interned in Dacau by the Nazi's during WWII. Meanwhile, Catholic Bishop Stepinac of Croatia stood bye and watched the slaugher of not only Serbian Orthodox Christians at the hands of the Ustasaha, but also Croatians Catholics who spoke against the Ustasha regime.
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