Republicans upset Democrats, win Kennedy seat

Overall, Americans have always been conservative minded and have had a dier fear of anything that resembles a socially minded society. Any successor to GW Bush would have had to take draconian measures to sort out the shit America was and is in, due to their mis-management of the economy and dragging the country into 3 wars (Afghanistan, Iraq and their war on terror). This president, Obama, hasn't done so badly yet and given the chance he will fare better,through doing. But it seems that Americans haven't got the patience, nor the stomach to see him succeed. A health care system for all Americans should be a real possibility for the richest nation on earth. From the moment Obama took office, the conservative conspirators have been plotting his failure. It's a political cat and mouse game where everyone will be a looser.

Joe

'Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs. '
What? Then you have what you believe to be a socialised health care system.

'This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did'

You also have the greatest underclass (an American term and invention) in the western industrialised world. You have the greatest ghetos where crime flourishes (greatest crime rates).

There may be the greatest riches in the US but there is also the greatest poverty. I would rather live in a fairer society where the gap between rich and poor is less - like in European countries.

That may be because I have more care for my fellow man than those that are obsessed with material wealth and being the richest.

It is sad to see American Neo-Con Media brainwashing the masses into hating the Democrats for stupid reasons. Fox news will be loving this. I feel sorry for these sheep who are controlled by the media.

As much I dislike the band Green Day they do have some good lyrics which sum up what is going on in the US regarding the masses and the media.

The independent voters of Massachusetts have spoken; there are only an estimated 12% registered Republicans in the state.
The Massachusetts' Legislature changed the law in 2004, so then Republican Governor Mitt Romney could not appoint a Republican if Senator John F. Kerry won the US presidency.
They changed the law again just a few months ago so Governor Deval Patrick (a Democrat) could temporarily appoint Paul G. Kirk (a Democrat) to this senate seat.
Bravo to the independent-minded voters of Massachusetts.

I'm from Massachusetts and voted - unenthusiastically - for the Democratic candidate.

There were many factors: a lousy economy with only a halting recovery so far, an uninspiring, over-confident candidate, and the same general impatience seen throughout the country with whomever is in power.

This vote may actually free the Democrats in Congress to act like Democrats, since there will be less need to kowtow to individual members with state- or industry-specific concerns. If they are willing to challenge the Republicans to actually filibuster and not just declare that they are prepared to, they can pass legislation with 50 votes (+ Joe Biden) rather than the 60 they currently consider they need. The desperate attempts to hold together 60 Democrats (which is like herding cats at the best of times) can be dispensed with.

Massachusetts, by the way, didn't vote against universal health care - we have it, and it's highly popular.

It’s funny how the most overused word by Americans is socialism and their fear of the US falling into this system despite the fact that the vast majority have never lived or even visited a socialist country nor do they adequately understand what socialism is all about.
The arguments used against a “universal” US health care system is straight out of the Pharmaceutical corporations’ Manuel – communism, socialism, curtailment of “our freedom” and so on. Now if Obama’s healthy legislation is not passed then it will not be 50, but close to 90 million people that will miss out.
“Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs” – True if you have a condition that can be treated on the spot, but what about those that require expensive treatment. Well sorry boys, you just go away and die quietly somewhere.
The UK may have long waiting lists, but no one dies because of a lack of treatment due to cost, unlike the US where approx 20,000 die annually because they could not afford health insurance cover – this is 2004 statistics and I believe it’s now doubled, but can’t confirm.
Joe,
Your statement about “poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable” is straight out of a Frank Capra movie. If you have the talent and ability you can climb to any heights in any European society – this is Europe 2010 not 1800. Perhaps you may not have noticed but it looks like the next future queen of the United Kingdom is one of the great unwashed whose parents made good in life and move in the right circles today.

No surprise here. People just do not like having things like a health plan shoved down their throat with no opportunity to have their concerns addressed and that is exactly what happens when you have one party completely in control of the outcome. On top of that, "The Second Coming" has not really accomplished anything in his first year except to spend money that he doesn't have like it was Monopoly money. Pretty soon, that is all it will be worth.

How sweet it is to watch our beloved liberal media blowhorns overwhelmed by shock and dismay. Thank the people of Massachusetts for saviing our nation from this tax and spend administration.

"always love your country, but never trust your government."

Patrik,

This shows that Americans are mature citizens and don't want to give up their cherished democracy. After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.
(Joe, 20 January 2010 15:49

Bush and his cronies had two terms to wreck the economy, start 2 wars costing billions of taxpayer dollars that could have been spent on the health of your fellow Americans.

Obama inherited a pile of S..t and with all the good will in the world you cannot get out of it.

Where i fault Obama is his indecisiveness.He cannot make up his mind whether his place is with the grassroots or with his Harvant buddies which dominate the Wall Street.

He's still pursuing the same stimulative policies of the Greenspan era which created the housing bubble and will create even larger bubbles and more devastating busts.

He still continues his wars in Iraq and Afganistan which are already lost causes.I can
also see Pakistan going the same way.

Bottom line is unless Obama re-connects with the grassroots he will be toasted
at the mid-congressional elections.

Where i fault Obama is his indecisiveness.He cannot make up his mind whether his place is with the grassroots or with his Harvant buddies which dominate the Wall Street.
(Leonidas, 20 January 2010 19:59)

I don't even fault him at that: he inherited such a horrible mess that probably not many presidents in history did. "Thanks" to eight years of Bush. The very unlucky wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were actually won by US and allies within few weeks. What was lost totally was the peace and nation-building.

No wonder: if Bush did fail so miserably on US domestic issues - why would he not fail in Afghanistan or Iraq domestically?

At this moment Obama tries to minimize the damage. I do not agree with the ways he does, but his hands are tied. Very similar situation what Gorbachyov had 20 years ago. Ultimately he had to give up Afghanistan and this one is not any better. We can't blame Gorbi or Obama for the monumental failures of others who made the mess.

-------

I'm from Massachusetts and voted - unenthusiastically - for the Democratic candidate.
(Amer, 20 January 2010 20:05)

Thanks, Amer. I do not know, when some people will realize than "neo" conservatives aren't conservatives at all.

-------

After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.
(Joe, 20 January 2010 15:49)

So you say, this freakin' commie Obama is running the red jihad all over America. Next year Serbian tanks will roll all over New York and San Franciso's Russian Hill will be what it is (literally). Pretty soon Chavez will come to see General Secretary of USA, Comrade Putin.

I think, this is not any better than proclaiming the world being under permanent Zionist danger and all earthquakes and tsunamis were designed in a secret room where Elders of Zion do meet - just to unleash one wave of horrors after an other. ;-)

To tell the truth, I really cannot blame you - Hungarians in exile tend to succumb to certain "reality distortion field", maybe more than others.

"Red jihad of Obama" is pretty much like "Elders of Zion" or "Elvis Presley living on the Moon" ;-)

Ian,

This topic came up some weeks ago and I got the same response from Joe - that I am ignorant and know nothing. Clearly he can tell us something about the country that we have lived in all our lives based on his narrow minded prejudices and one time hobnobbing with French aristocrats. He can tell us all the social mobility barriers that we face because he knows better.

But the facts are there. Yes, you will get life saving treatment in the US without insurance. What about other treatments?

I don't mean to put the US down because there are many great things about it.

If Joe really knew about the UK then he would realise that there has been massive shifts in social classes. Ironically, moving towards that of the US - our working class has all but gone with movements into the middle class and the left behind are the "underclass". That "underclass" is where social barriers do exist, that is where people are born into a way of life that is difficult to escape - just like the US.

You and I know that the overwhelming majority from all social classes support the NHS. The provision of universal healthcare is untouchable by any political party. Most of us are taken from the cradle to the grave by the NHS and are proud of the fact that everyone is entitled to the same care and treatment.

It is for the Americans to decide what is morally right. However, it is difficult for us to understand why such a great country does not provide a universal healthcare system. I guess that there is just a different perceptive on such issues.

Patrik,

This shows that Americans are mature citizens and don't want to give up their cherished democracy. After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.

What a lot of nonsense about socialism / health care debate. Does the UK look like a Socialist country to anybody?

Its obvious where the concerns of the pharmaceutical industry lie and its obvious where the concerns of the poorest lie.

I choose life above profit.

Your comment is a clear indication that you have no idea of the workings of the US health system. Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs.
As for health care in the UK you can have it. Long waiting lists, sometimes 2-3 months. I call it the socialist quality. I heard a lot about it.
And social mobility? Very little. You have many classes between the working class and the so-called aristocratic high society. The later ones, calling themselves the "creme de la creme" look down on the "ordinary" people. I would hate to be a "little guy" in the UK. As I read recently if somebody is born in the UK in the working class there is little chance for him to get out. He will die in that class. In the US it is different. Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did.
(Joe, 21 January 2010 01:35)

I never said that people are left to die, I know that there is basic treatment for people who can be treated there and then, which is covered by the state. However is the state going to pay for expensive operations and on going treatment for their poor patients? No they are not. They are the ones who are left to die.
Yes we do have waiting lists of 2-3 months sometimes for certain operations, however everyone gets treated and if the operation is required urgently they get pushed towards the front of the list so that they don't die. Also please don't use the "s" word until you know what it actually means. Also if you're going to talk about socialism, I think you might be interested to know that the World Health Care Organisation ranks the US behind Cuba when it comes to healthcare.

Here in the UK, we have all seen this Neo-Con fear campaign against the American people trying to scare you against Obama's healthcare bill. It is rather comical to a certain extent. My favourite bit was when Fox News said that if Stephen Hawkins had of been British he would have died due to the British healthcare system, however Stephen Hawkins sent a message to Fox News saying that he was British and that he owes his life to the British healthcare service. Fox News "forgot" to report this bit. It made me laugh. Your media has also been bribing former Tory MPs from the UK to say how bad the UK healthcare service is. That made the headlines over here.

Yes social mobility is becoming harder and harder by the year in the UK, however the same is happening in the US too. The gap is widening each year in both the UK and the US. You have the biggest underclass in the Western world in terms of percentage, your poverty levels are increasing yearly too. How are these victims of US society supposed to pay for their healthcare? It is very well known that there is an "elite" in the US which is your equivalent of the "creme de la creme". Your country has two of the biggest extremes in the Western World, some of the richest and some of the poorest. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
"Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors." It is not hard to find Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Polish or Irish people of working class backgrounds who have made it successful in the UK and become professionals. Therefore the US isn't "so unique and enviable", as it happens all over Europe too.
How many people go to university in the US after leaving school? I bet it is not high, in the UK it is just less than 50%.

The UK and Europe in general does not have everything perfect, but at least we don't claim it is perfect when it isn't like the US does.

I just want to say another great comment from bganon and a great comment from sj.

What a lot of nonsense about socialism / health care debate. Does the UK look like a Socialist country to anybody?

Its obvious where the concerns of the pharmaceutical industry lie and its obvious where the concerns of the poorest lie.

I choose life above profit.
(bganon, 20 January 2010 20:07)

I 100% agree with you. Obama/ Democrats are not socialist at all, neither is the UK; we are the complete opposite. Yes we have a nationalised Health Care Service, so what? Does that mean we are socialist? Obviously not!
We have the 17th best healthcare service in the world according to the World Health Organisation, compared to the US who is at number 36. I'd hate to know that my life could be at risk for the sake of some businessmen making a profit. It is actually sick if you think about it. However these Neo-Cons hate it; they would most likely love to see the poor die so their pockets can get fuller!

How do you pay for your health insurance if you loose your job? Which many people have done so, due to the economic crisis. Should they be left to die because some Capitalist businessmen messed up, therefore they loose their job and cannot afford to pay for healthcare to other businessmen who could also mess up too? Playing with peoples lives for the sake of money is wrong! That is why I am glad to be British and know that healthcare is a basic right.

In the US 2/3 Urban hospitals are charity run. There is something really wrong there. Many people die in the US so that other people can make money. That is sick!

This swine flu so called "pandemic" has been purposely blown out of proportion so that the pharmaceutical industry can make a huge profit.

Many many many Americans have been extremely misguided by the dominant Neo-Con media which hates the Democrats and Obama, just because they want to see the Republicans back in power who serve them well.

Now that the US has finally got what one could call a "good hearted decent President", the Neo-Cons Media and politicians have to ruin him, even though he will be helping several million people. His healthcare service will help chanace may lives. The Neo-Cons are just making social mobility harder and harder. So much for your "American Dream" of "from rags to riches", this is becoming harder and harder by the year thanks to the US's beloved Republican Party and Fox News etc. What a horrible society the US is becoming. Long live the "glorious" US&A!

I too choose life above profit.

Ian,UK

Your comment is a clear indication that you have no idea of the workings of the US health system. Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs.
As for health care in the UK you can have it. Long waiting lists, sometimes 2-3 months. I call it the socialist quality. I heard a lot about it.
And social mobility? Very little. You have many classes between the working class and the so-called aristocratic high society. The later ones, calling themselves the "creme de la creme" look down on the "ordinary" people. I would hate to be a "little guy" in the UK. As I read recently if somebody is born in the UK in the working class there is little chance for him to get out. He will die in that class. In the US it is different. Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did.

T
==

I generally have no love for the present conservative movement, but in this case the fiasco was the Democrats' own doing, especially the Senate's...with the huge help of Joe Lieberman.

"Massachusetts, by the way, didn't vote against universal health care - we have it, and it's highly popular.
(Amer, 20 January 2010 20:05)"

I didn't know that Amer. Is the health insurance effectively a tax? Regardless of whether you pay it (or default in paying it) you get all health care?

How does it work? Do they think that it will actually save money? What makes it popular?

Patrik,

This shows that Americans are mature citizens and don't want to give up their cherished democracy. After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.

Ian,UK

Your comment is a clear indication that you have no idea of the workings of the US health system. Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs.
As for health care in the UK you can have it. Long waiting lists, sometimes 2-3 months. I call it the socialist quality. I heard a lot about it.
And social mobility? Very little. You have many classes between the working class and the so-called aristocratic high society. The later ones, calling themselves the "creme de la creme" look down on the "ordinary" people. I would hate to be a "little guy" in the UK. As I read recently if somebody is born in the UK in the working class there is little chance for him to get out. He will die in that class. In the US it is different. Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did.

No surprise here. People just do not like having things like a health plan shoved down their throat with no opportunity to have their concerns addressed and that is exactly what happens when you have one party completely in control of the outcome. On top of that, "The Second Coming" has not really accomplished anything in his first year except to spend money that he doesn't have like it was Monopoly money. Pretty soon, that is all it will be worth.

It is sad to see American Neo-Con Media brainwashing the masses into hating the Democrats for stupid reasons. Fox news will be loving this. I feel sorry for these sheep who are controlled by the media.

As much I dislike the band Green Day they do have some good lyrics which sum up what is going on in the US regarding the masses and the media.

The independent voters of Massachusetts have spoken; there are only an estimated 12% registered Republicans in the state.
The Massachusetts' Legislature changed the law in 2004, so then Republican Governor Mitt Romney could not appoint a Republican if Senator John F. Kerry won the US presidency.
They changed the law again just a few months ago so Governor Deval Patrick (a Democrat) could temporarily appoint Paul G. Kirk (a Democrat) to this senate seat.
Bravo to the independent-minded voters of Massachusetts.

How sweet it is to watch our beloved liberal media blowhorns overwhelmed by shock and dismay. Thank the people of Massachusetts for saviing our nation from this tax and spend administration.

"always love your country, but never trust your government."

What a lot of nonsense about socialism / health care debate. Does the UK look like a Socialist country to anybody?

Its obvious where the concerns of the pharmaceutical industry lie and its obvious where the concerns of the poorest lie.

I choose life above profit.

Overall, Americans have always been conservative minded and have had a dier fear of anything that resembles a socially minded society. Any successor to GW Bush would have had to take draconian measures to sort out the shit America was and is in, due to their mis-management of the economy and dragging the country into 3 wars (Afghanistan, Iraq and their war on terror). This president, Obama, hasn't done so badly yet and given the chance he will fare better,through doing. But it seems that Americans haven't got the patience, nor the stomach to see him succeed. A health care system for all Americans should be a real possibility for the richest nation on earth. From the moment Obama took office, the conservative conspirators have been plotting his failure. It's a political cat and mouse game where everyone will be a looser.

I'm from Massachusetts and voted - unenthusiastically - for the Democratic candidate.

There were many factors: a lousy economy with only a halting recovery so far, an uninspiring, over-confident candidate, and the same general impatience seen throughout the country with whomever is in power.

This vote may actually free the Democrats in Congress to act like Democrats, since there will be less need to kowtow to individual members with state- or industry-specific concerns. If they are willing to challenge the Republicans to actually filibuster and not just declare that they are prepared to, they can pass legislation with 50 votes (+ Joe Biden) rather than the 60 they currently consider they need. The desperate attempts to hold together 60 Democrats (which is like herding cats at the best of times) can be dispensed with.

Massachusetts, by the way, didn't vote against universal health care - we have it, and it's highly popular.

T
==

I generally have no love for the present conservative movement, but in this case the fiasco was the Democrats' own doing, especially the Senate's...with the huge help of Joe Lieberman.

What a lot of nonsense about socialism / health care debate. Does the UK look like a Socialist country to anybody?

Its obvious where the concerns of the pharmaceutical industry lie and its obvious where the concerns of the poorest lie.

I choose life above profit.
(bganon, 20 January 2010 20:07)

I 100% agree with you. Obama/ Democrats are not socialist at all, neither is the UK; we are the complete opposite. Yes we have a nationalised Health Care Service, so what? Does that mean we are socialist? Obviously not!
We have the 17th best healthcare service in the world according to the World Health Organisation, compared to the US who is at number 36. I'd hate to know that my life could be at risk for the sake of some businessmen making a profit. It is actually sick if you think about it. However these Neo-Cons hate it; they would most likely love to see the poor die so their pockets can get fuller!

How do you pay for your health insurance if you loose your job? Which many people have done so, due to the economic crisis. Should they be left to die because some Capitalist businessmen messed up, therefore they loose their job and cannot afford to pay for healthcare to other businessmen who could also mess up too? Playing with peoples lives for the sake of money is wrong! That is why I am glad to be British and know that healthcare is a basic right.

In the US 2/3 Urban hospitals are charity run. There is something really wrong there. Many people die in the US so that other people can make money. That is sick!

This swine flu so called "pandemic" has been purposely blown out of proportion so that the pharmaceutical industry can make a huge profit.

Many many many Americans have been extremely misguided by the dominant Neo-Con media which hates the Democrats and Obama, just because they want to see the Republicans back in power who serve them well.

Now that the US has finally got what one could call a "good hearted decent President", the Neo-Cons Media and politicians have to ruin him, even though he will be helping several million people. His healthcare service will help chanace may lives. The Neo-Cons are just making social mobility harder and harder. So much for your "American Dream" of "from rags to riches", this is becoming harder and harder by the year thanks to the US's beloved Republican Party and Fox News etc. What a horrible society the US is becoming. Long live the "glorious" US&A!

I too choose life above profit.

Patrik,

This shows that Americans are mature citizens and don't want to give up their cherished democracy. After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.
(Joe, 20 January 2010 15:49

Bush and his cronies had two terms to wreck the economy, start 2 wars costing billions of taxpayer dollars that could have been spent on the health of your fellow Americans.

Obama inherited a pile of S..t and with all the good will in the world you cannot get out of it.

Where i fault Obama is his indecisiveness.He cannot make up his mind whether his place is with the grassroots or with his Harvant buddies which dominate the Wall Street.

He's still pursuing the same stimulative policies of the Greenspan era which created the housing bubble and will create even larger bubbles and more devastating busts.

He still continues his wars in Iraq and Afganistan which are already lost causes.I can
also see Pakistan going the same way.

Bottom line is unless Obama re-connects with the grassroots he will be toasted
at the mid-congressional elections.

Joe

'Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs. '
What? Then you have what you believe to be a socialised health care system.

'This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did'

You also have the greatest underclass (an American term and invention) in the western industrialised world. You have the greatest ghetos where crime flourishes (greatest crime rates).

There may be the greatest riches in the US but there is also the greatest poverty. I would rather live in a fairer society where the gap between rich and poor is less - like in European countries.

That may be because I have more care for my fellow man than those that are obsessed with material wealth and being the richest.

It’s funny how the most overused word by Americans is socialism and their fear of the US falling into this system despite the fact that the vast majority have never lived or even visited a socialist country nor do they adequately understand what socialism is all about.
The arguments used against a “universal” US health care system is straight out of the Pharmaceutical corporations’ Manuel – communism, socialism, curtailment of “our freedom” and so on. Now if Obama’s healthy legislation is not passed then it will not be 50, but close to 90 million people that will miss out.
“Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs” – True if you have a condition that can be treated on the spot, but what about those that require expensive treatment. Well sorry boys, you just go away and die quietly somewhere.
The UK may have long waiting lists, but no one dies because of a lack of treatment due to cost, unlike the US where approx 20,000 die annually because they could not afford health insurance cover – this is 2004 statistics and I believe it’s now doubled, but can’t confirm.
Joe,
Your statement about “poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable” is straight out of a Frank Capra movie. If you have the talent and ability you can climb to any heights in any European society – this is Europe 2010 not 1800. Perhaps you may not have noticed but it looks like the next future queen of the United Kingdom is one of the great unwashed whose parents made good in life and move in the right circles today.

Where i fault Obama is his indecisiveness.He cannot make up his mind whether his place is with the grassroots or with his Harvant buddies which dominate the Wall Street.
(Leonidas, 20 January 2010 19:59)

I don't even fault him at that: he inherited such a horrible mess that probably not many presidents in history did. "Thanks" to eight years of Bush. The very unlucky wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were actually won by US and allies within few weeks. What was lost totally was the peace and nation-building.

No wonder: if Bush did fail so miserably on US domestic issues - why would he not fail in Afghanistan or Iraq domestically?

At this moment Obama tries to minimize the damage. I do not agree with the ways he does, but his hands are tied. Very similar situation what Gorbachyov had 20 years ago. Ultimately he had to give up Afghanistan and this one is not any better. We can't blame Gorbi or Obama for the monumental failures of others who made the mess.

-------

I'm from Massachusetts and voted - unenthusiastically - for the Democratic candidate.
(Amer, 20 January 2010 20:05)

Thanks, Amer. I do not know, when some people will realize than "neo" conservatives aren't conservatives at all.

-------

After one year they recognized the danger signs of creeping socialism. They don't want to become a second Venezuela in 10-20 years.
The elections in November announce to become very exiting.
(Joe, 20 January 2010 15:49)

So you say, this freakin' commie Obama is running the red jihad all over America. Next year Serbian tanks will roll all over New York and San Franciso's Russian Hill will be what it is (literally). Pretty soon Chavez will come to see General Secretary of USA, Comrade Putin.

I think, this is not any better than proclaiming the world being under permanent Zionist danger and all earthquakes and tsunamis were designed in a secret room where Elders of Zion do meet - just to unleash one wave of horrors after an other. ;-)

To tell the truth, I really cannot blame you - Hungarians in exile tend to succumb to certain "reality distortion field", maybe more than others.

"Red jihad of Obama" is pretty much like "Elders of Zion" or "Elvis Presley living on the Moon" ;-)

Your comment is a clear indication that you have no idea of the workings of the US health system. Nobody is refused in any US hospital. If he has no money, no insurance than the hospital & state swallow the costs.
As for health care in the UK you can have it. Long waiting lists, sometimes 2-3 months. I call it the socialist quality. I heard a lot about it.
And social mobility? Very little. You have many classes between the working class and the so-called aristocratic high society. The later ones, calling themselves the "creme de la creme" look down on the "ordinary" people. I would hate to be a "little guy" in the UK. As I read recently if somebody is born in the UK in the working class there is little chance for him to get out. He will die in that class. In the US it is different. Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors. This is what made the US so unique and enviable. In Europe people talked and still talk so much about equality and opportunity but they could never realize it the same way as Americans did.
(Joe, 21 January 2010 01:35)

I never said that people are left to die, I know that there is basic treatment for people who can be treated there and then, which is covered by the state. However is the state going to pay for expensive operations and on going treatment for their poor patients? No they are not. They are the ones who are left to die.
Yes we do have waiting lists of 2-3 months sometimes for certain operations, however everyone gets treated and if the operation is required urgently they get pushed towards the front of the list so that they don't die. Also please don't use the "s" word until you know what it actually means. Also if you're going to talk about socialism, I think you might be interested to know that the World Health Care Organisation ranks the US behind Cuba when it comes to healthcare.

Here in the UK, we have all seen this Neo-Con fear campaign against the American people trying to scare you against Obama's healthcare bill. It is rather comical to a certain extent. My favourite bit was when Fox News said that if Stephen Hawkins had of been British he would have died due to the British healthcare system, however Stephen Hawkins sent a message to Fox News saying that he was British and that he owes his life to the British healthcare service. Fox News "forgot" to report this bit. It made me laugh. Your media has also been bribing former Tory MPs from the UK to say how bad the UK healthcare service is. That made the headlines over here.

Yes social mobility is becoming harder and harder by the year in the UK, however the same is happening in the US too. The gap is widening each year in both the UK and the US. You have the biggest underclass in the Western world in terms of percentage, your poverty levels are increasing yearly too. How are these victims of US society supposed to pay for their healthcare? It is very well known that there is an "elite" in the US which is your equivalent of the "creme de la creme". Your country has two of the biggest extremes in the Western World, some of the richest and some of the poorest. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
"Many kids of poor immigrants made it to become lawyers, professors, doctors." It is not hard to find Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, Polish or Irish people of working class backgrounds who have made it successful in the UK and become professionals. Therefore the US isn't "so unique and enviable", as it happens all over Europe too.
How many people go to university in the US after leaving school? I bet it is not high, in the UK it is just less than 50%.

The UK and Europe in general does not have everything perfect, but at least we don't claim it is perfect when it isn't like the US does.

I just want to say another great comment from bganon and a great comment from sj.

Ian,

This topic came up some weeks ago and I got the same response from Joe - that I am ignorant and know nothing. Clearly he can tell us something about the country that we have lived in all our lives based on his narrow minded prejudices and one time hobnobbing with French aristocrats. He can tell us all the social mobility barriers that we face because he knows better.

But the facts are there. Yes, you will get life saving treatment in the US without insurance. What about other treatments?

I don't mean to put the US down because there are many great things about it.

If Joe really knew about the UK then he would realise that there has been massive shifts in social classes. Ironically, moving towards that of the US - our working class has all but gone with movements into the middle class and the left behind are the "underclass". That "underclass" is where social barriers do exist, that is where people are born into a way of life that is difficult to escape - just like the US.

You and I know that the overwhelming majority from all social classes support the NHS. The provision of universal healthcare is untouchable by any political party. Most of us are taken from the cradle to the grave by the NHS and are proud of the fact that everyone is entitled to the same care and treatment.

It is for the Americans to decide what is morally right. However, it is difficult for us to understand why such a great country does not provide a universal healthcare system. I guess that there is just a different perceptive on such issues.

"Massachusetts, by the way, didn't vote against universal health care - we have it, and it's highly popular.
(Amer, 20 January 2010 20:05)"

I didn't know that Amer. Is the health insurance effectively a tax? Regardless of whether you pay it (or default in paying it) you get all health care?

How does it work? Do they think that it will actually save money? What makes it popular?