“Croatia-Serbia relations are strategic”

Perhaps ist to early to draw conclusions but I think the new Croatian leadership is way much mature than Mesic and his clowns. The new Croatian leadership has realized that Serbia can become an important partner to them and vice versa.

It's about time some fresh blood is injected and if only to break away from staleness of Mesic.

Croatia filed its lawsuit some ten years ago; Serbia’s countersuit came earlier this month.
--
So tell me, if Croatia lodged its suit 10 years ago, why hasn't it been heard?

Improving relations between Croatia and Serbia poses a problem, especially for Croatian nationalists and their Western backers, and, perhaps, a few Serbs, too.

I don’t believe that the West can allow Croatia and Serbia to become too close, or for BOTH sides to genuinely admit and forgive the atrocities they committed against each other.

The simple reason is that such an improvement might – just might – in a generation or two lead to talk of reunion – a new Yugoslavia.

Few developments in the western Balkans frighten the West more than the unity of a people who, despite baseless and embarrassing protests to the contrary, are ethnically and linguistically identical.

Thumbs up for Josipovic.

Stefan,

With unemployment in Croatia nearing 300,000 and an economy projected to shrink this year anywhere from 5 - 6% this year, I daresay Croatia is as strong as you boast. Josipovic is the type of leader Croatia needs: one who has no problem valuing strategic partnerships with its most important neighbor, Serbia. The days of arrogant Croatian nationalism have, I can only hope, have died with the bumbling policies of Mesic and leftover HDZ rantings of Brandic.

By the way, how's the weather in Chicago? I ask because judging from your comment, you seem more likely to be one of those annoying diaspora nationalists than someone who lives in Croatia. If you do, I'm not sorry your candidate lost.

Strategic to Croatia perhaps, but for us we will do fine without them.

We're 3 times richer than bankrupted serbs...we're about to enter EU, they haven't get SAA ratified yet ..
(Stefan, 12 January 2010 20:01)
--
"Wealth" built on debt isn't really wealth. Enjoy your huge national debt. Croatia is practically owned by foreign interests now. You are the ideal EU candidate! ;)

I want to qualify my comments regarding Croatia recently. It is indeed a beautiful country ( i have been a hundred times and spent every summer of my childhood there) and the country is far ahead of Serbia in many respects. Much of this has been done with large amounts of debt that they are struggling to handle. The road from Zagreb to Split is indeed fantastic and the trains are modern and run on time ( tracks have a problem with the heat though!)I have many Croatian friends who are some of the finest people I know. My issue is with Mesic and his ilk. It seems his political career revolved around poking Serbia in the eye whenever there was the start of a rapprochement. He used latent, but virulent, Croatian nationalism for his own ends. Now he is gone, i sincerely hope we can be friends again!

Come on Stefan you could try engaging a little more on the issues rather than coming here trying to laugh at Serbia.

Remember you are the one coming here, a Serbian news forum. If everthing in Croatia is so great then surely you would be posting there? Or if you didn't need Serbia, why are you here?

Croatians and Serbs are like Dutchmen and Flamish... almost the same, like cousins!

Croatia and Serbia should work together. Especially when it comes to Bosnia!

I expect the two moderate, progressive and non-nationalistic presidents Josipovic and Tadic to cooperate much better, for the better and the progress of both countries, Serbia and Croatia, and for the people living there.

Congratulations!

Strategic to Croatia perhaps, but for us we will do fine without them.
(Zeka, 12 January 2010 15:46)

And what the hell may Croatia need Serbia ??

We're 3 times richer than bankrupted serbs...we're about to enter EU, they haven't get SAA ratified yet (the very first step),...we're one of the most sought-after touristic destination and host more than 11 millions tourists,...our infrastructure is better than that of EU contries...and our army is the best in Ex-Yougo...

Let Serbia where it lies....in a black hole....

I’m really impressed with Josipovic so far. We all need closure, we all need to know the truth, to know what happened.

Compared to the insanity Mesic has been spouting the last few weeks, I’m simply astounded.

'Croatia filed its lawsuit some ten years ago; Serbia’s countersuit came earlier this month.
--
So tell me, if Croatia lodged its suit 10 years ago, why hasn't it been heard?
(Zoran, 12 January 2010 12:26) '

Objections from Serbia as to whether the ICJ had jurisdiction - each claim and counterclaim takes at least 6 months, sometimes a couple of years, to be decided. It's all available at the ICJ website under the 1999 cases.

Very true Zeko..

Keep your friends close & your enemies closer, Serbia!

CCCC

"By the way, how's the weather in Chicago? I ask because judging from your comment, you seem more likely to be one of those annoying diaspora nationalists than someone who lives in Croatia. If you do, I'm not sorry your candidate lost.
(Mike, 12 January 2010 22:29)"

Good point Mike. You should see the ultra-nationalist Croatian elements here in Hamilton, Ontario. If they had their way, Ante "gotov" Gotovina would be free and every last Serb would be cleansed from Croatia. This diaspora leaving was good news for Yugoslavia but is bad news for us because we have to listen to them in coffee shops and see U's on checkerboard jackets everywhere. I'm not sure if I should salute or race my car when they pass by.

Second, my cousin who lost his home during the war tried to return to his flat in Karlovac but ultimately resettled in Novi Sad. His sentiments are that the Croatia of the past is no more and has been reduced to a have-not nation. Crime, violence and rudeness is everywhere there. Not sure where the tourist money is ending up as Stefan boasts but it is clearly NOT in the public coffers because people are more destitute than they are in Serbia.

If Croatia cannot rule itself which it has not clearly been able to at any time in history, then maybe it should seek alliance with Serbia, and seek help and leadership from Beograd and not be so quick to dismiss co-operation.

Stefan, let me correct your "facts".

You claimed that Croatia as a nation is 3 times richer then Serbia, aswell as the average croatian being 3 times richer then the average Serbian.

Okay, lets just take a quick look at wikepedia and see what they have written there.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

Now the facts dont really seem to agree with you do they? The marginal between the two countries is minimalistic in terms of GDP (PPP).

Croatia: 82.407 M
Serbia: 79.798

And yes, the average croatian is richer then the average serbian. But 3 times richer? Hardly.

GDP/PC:

Croatia: 18,575
Serbia: 10,810

And thats mostly because we have twice the population as you. You also take into account that we've been bombed twice over a very long period of time, greatly damaging our infrastructure, factories, industry etc. We've also been blackmailed by the western media, which have painted us as the bad guys and thus weakened our reputation and image around the world which has had a negative impact on market of investors.

And yet, the marginal between CRO and SRB in terms of economy are barely marginal.

In the end comparing Serbia and Croatia in terms of economy is like Comparing Kongo And Zimabwe. The People one side might have a goat more to milk. But if you ask them if they are satisfied with their income and their quality of life in the current state, the answer will be most definately no.

(Stefan, 12 January 2010 20:01)

Firstly, it was your new President that made that statement not Tadic. You may be rich in a foreign country, but your relatives are not in Croatia. Croatia owes, including interest as at December 2009, 60 billion Euros for a nation of 3.5 million people and I’m sure you can do the maths on the debt per person. The test whether Croatia is financially viable would be to ask for a loan from the World Bank, which the answer would be NO! Serbia can borrow money because it has something to borrow against unlike Croatia.
Croatia will not join the EU until the refugee matter is settled, like it or not that is a reality. The EU tactic is to have members object; for example, Spain will object then after its concerns are addressed it will be Belgium then Italy and so it goes on and on until the refugee question is settled. The Serbia will sign the SAA by mid 2010.
Your quite right 11 million tourists were in Croatia, but the vast majority only drove through that country to other destinations. You have to pay attention to your Minister for Tourism who admitted that tourism in 2009 was down by 30% compared to 2008, and that year was terrible.
Your infrastructure is owned by foreign interests and, as a Croat told me, if you wanted to travel from say Vukovar to Sibenik it would cost the average Croat a month’s wages in road tolls alone. Nice to have roads that Croats cannot use, eh!
Remember if you want to show Serbs the power of the great Croatian army make sure you first recall the 300 from Afghanistan, you don’t want to be at a disadvantage.

"Good point Mike. You should see the ultra-nationalist Croatian elements here in Hamilton, Ontario. If they had their way, Ante "gotov" Gotovina would be free and every last Serb would be cleansed from Croatia. "
(tesla, 13 January 2010 04:53)

Well, and when I read some of the ultra-nationalistic Serbian elements posting here, Šešelj should be set free, Karadzic, too, and Mladic should be never found and extradited.

I'm happy that those elements and political parties with a similar opinion don't have a say in Serbia, currently at least. Regarding the overcoming of extreme nationalism, Serbia might considered be being ahead of Croatia.

Sj,

First of all Croatia is not a nation of 3.5 million people but 4.5 million and their debt is perhaps high but so high their GDP...
To be correct it's even higher than Serbia's GDP which, may I remind it, have more than 7.5 million inhabitants. So, if YOU do the maths, it appears that an average croatian is at least twice as rich as a serbian...and that huge GDP makes also croatian debt clearly sustainable...if it wasn't, we for sure would have heard of it every where TV, newspapers and so on and IMF would have run to try to save us....as it did for Serbia which was facing bankruptcy and seeing their currency drop day by day...powerless.

And thank you but your test of World Bank loan is of no interest to us...since World Bank is in charge of providing support to Third World Countries whom no commercial Bank would lend a dollar...such as african countries or Serbia. unlike you, we and other developped countries don't see any proud in begging such institutions for money...
We, fortunately, borrow money to Deutsche Bank or get our fabulous motorways built by Strabag...you know ? they're called Foreign investors...
And as to your fairytale about croatioans and their motorways...I don't think Strabag would have invest several billions just hoping some tourists will use them during the summer...the fact that poor serbs can't afford them doesn't presume croatians, about to enter EU, also can't.

And BTW, may I invite you to forget Krajina and refugees, this was never a condition to Croatia...NEVER...no point harassing us with your so-called sources...such conditions are too important to be secret and put on the table a few days before the signing...this is clearly not an opened issue because it was NEVER an issue...
Instead, may I invite you to prepare facing the long list of croatian conditions you 'll find on EU door when knocking on it.....in 2020 (if you get Mlladic before of course...Netherlands made u their last gift with the interim commercial agreement...you'll never have the same luck for SAA.

Yes, funny to be taughed lessons upon debt by serbs...If we total all emergency loans offered by IMF, WB, EU, Russia and other banana countries, I dare to say my friend that you've got enough for the grand sons of your grand sons and maybe more...

Strategic to Croatia perhaps, but for us we will do fine without them.
(Zeka, 12 January 2010 15:46)

And what the hell may Croatia need Serbia ??

We're 3 times richer than bankrupted serbs...we're about to enter EU, they haven't get SAA ratified yet (the very first step),...we're one of the most sought-after touristic destination and host more than 11 millions tourists,...our infrastructure is better than that of EU contries...and our army is the best in Ex-Yougo...

Let Serbia where it lies....in a black hole....

Strategic to Croatia perhaps, but for us we will do fine without them.

Improving relations between Croatia and Serbia poses a problem, especially for Croatian nationalists and their Western backers, and, perhaps, a few Serbs, too.

I don’t believe that the West can allow Croatia and Serbia to become too close, or for BOTH sides to genuinely admit and forgive the atrocities they committed against each other.

The simple reason is that such an improvement might – just might – in a generation or two lead to talk of reunion – a new Yugoslavia.

Few developments in the western Balkans frighten the West more than the unity of a people who, despite baseless and embarrassing protests to the contrary, are ethnically and linguistically identical.

'Croatia filed its lawsuit some ten years ago; Serbia’s countersuit came earlier this month.
--
So tell me, if Croatia lodged its suit 10 years ago, why hasn't it been heard?
(Zoran, 12 January 2010 12:26) '

Objections from Serbia as to whether the ICJ had jurisdiction - each claim and counterclaim takes at least 6 months, sometimes a couple of years, to be decided. It's all available at the ICJ website under the 1999 cases.

Yes, funny to be taughed lessons upon debt by serbs...If we total all emergency loans offered by IMF, WB, EU, Russia and other banana countries, I dare to say my friend that you've got enough for the grand sons of your grand sons and maybe more...

Perhaps ist to early to draw conclusions but I think the new Croatian leadership is way much mature than Mesic and his clowns. The new Croatian leadership has realized that Serbia can become an important partner to them and vice versa.

Croatia filed its lawsuit some ten years ago; Serbia’s countersuit came earlier this month.
--
So tell me, if Croatia lodged its suit 10 years ago, why hasn't it been heard?

Thumbs up for Josipovic.

It's about time some fresh blood is injected and if only to break away from staleness of Mesic.

Croatians and Serbs are like Dutchmen and Flamish... almost the same, like cousins!

Croatia and Serbia should work together. Especially when it comes to Bosnia!

Very true Zeko..

Sj,

First of all Croatia is not a nation of 3.5 million people but 4.5 million and their debt is perhaps high but so high their GDP...
To be correct it's even higher than Serbia's GDP which, may I remind it, have more than 7.5 million inhabitants. So, if YOU do the maths, it appears that an average croatian is at least twice as rich as a serbian...and that huge GDP makes also croatian debt clearly sustainable...if it wasn't, we for sure would have heard of it every where TV, newspapers and so on and IMF would have run to try to save us....as it did for Serbia which was facing bankruptcy and seeing their currency drop day by day...powerless.

And thank you but your test of World Bank loan is of no interest to us...since World Bank is in charge of providing support to Third World Countries whom no commercial Bank would lend a dollar...such as african countries or Serbia. unlike you, we and other developped countries don't see any proud in begging such institutions for money...
We, fortunately, borrow money to Deutsche Bank or get our fabulous motorways built by Strabag...you know ? they're called Foreign investors...
And as to your fairytale about croatioans and their motorways...I don't think Strabag would have invest several billions just hoping some tourists will use them during the summer...the fact that poor serbs can't afford them doesn't presume croatians, about to enter EU, also can't.

And BTW, may I invite you to forget Krajina and refugees, this was never a condition to Croatia...NEVER...no point harassing us with your so-called sources...such conditions are too important to be secret and put on the table a few days before the signing...this is clearly not an opened issue because it was NEVER an issue...
Instead, may I invite you to prepare facing the long list of croatian conditions you 'll find on EU door when knocking on it.....in 2020 (if you get Mlladic before of course...Netherlands made u their last gift with the interim commercial agreement...you'll never have the same luck for SAA.

"By the way, how's the weather in Chicago? I ask because judging from your comment, you seem more likely to be one of those annoying diaspora nationalists than someone who lives in Croatia. If you do, I'm not sorry your candidate lost.
(Mike, 12 January 2010 22:29)"

Good point Mike. You should see the ultra-nationalist Croatian elements here in Hamilton, Ontario. If they had their way, Ante "gotov" Gotovina would be free and every last Serb would be cleansed from Croatia. This diaspora leaving was good news for Yugoslavia but is bad news for us because we have to listen to them in coffee shops and see U's on checkerboard jackets everywhere. I'm not sure if I should salute or race my car when they pass by.

Second, my cousin who lost his home during the war tried to return to his flat in Karlovac but ultimately resettled in Novi Sad. His sentiments are that the Croatia of the past is no more and has been reduced to a have-not nation. Crime, violence and rudeness is everywhere there. Not sure where the tourist money is ending up as Stefan boasts but it is clearly NOT in the public coffers because people are more destitute than they are in Serbia.

If Croatia cannot rule itself which it has not clearly been able to at any time in history, then maybe it should seek alliance with Serbia, and seek help and leadership from Beograd and not be so quick to dismiss co-operation.

We're 3 times richer than bankrupted serbs...we're about to enter EU, they haven't get SAA ratified yet ..
(Stefan, 12 January 2010 20:01)
--
"Wealth" built on debt isn't really wealth. Enjoy your huge national debt. Croatia is practically owned by foreign interests now. You are the ideal EU candidate! ;)

I expect the two moderate, progressive and non-nationalistic presidents Josipovic and Tadic to cooperate much better, for the better and the progress of both countries, Serbia and Croatia, and for the people living there.

Congratulations!

Come on Stefan you could try engaging a little more on the issues rather than coming here trying to laugh at Serbia.

Remember you are the one coming here, a Serbian news forum. If everthing in Croatia is so great then surely you would be posting there? Or if you didn't need Serbia, why are you here?

"Good point Mike. You should see the ultra-nationalist Croatian elements here in Hamilton, Ontario. If they had their way, Ante "gotov" Gotovina would be free and every last Serb would be cleansed from Croatia. "
(tesla, 13 January 2010 04:53)

Well, and when I read some of the ultra-nationalistic Serbian elements posting here, Šešelj should be set free, Karadzic, too, and Mladic should be never found and extradited.

I'm happy that those elements and political parties with a similar opinion don't have a say in Serbia, currently at least. Regarding the overcoming of extreme nationalism, Serbia might considered be being ahead of Croatia.

Stefan,

With unemployment in Croatia nearing 300,000 and an economy projected to shrink this year anywhere from 5 - 6% this year, I daresay Croatia is as strong as you boast. Josipovic is the type of leader Croatia needs: one who has no problem valuing strategic partnerships with its most important neighbor, Serbia. The days of arrogant Croatian nationalism have, I can only hope, have died with the bumbling policies of Mesic and leftover HDZ rantings of Brandic.

By the way, how's the weather in Chicago? I ask because judging from your comment, you seem more likely to be one of those annoying diaspora nationalists than someone who lives in Croatia. If you do, I'm not sorry your candidate lost.

(Stefan, 12 January 2010 20:01)

Firstly, it was your new President that made that statement not Tadic. You may be rich in a foreign country, but your relatives are not in Croatia. Croatia owes, including interest as at December 2009, 60 billion Euros for a nation of 3.5 million people and I’m sure you can do the maths on the debt per person. The test whether Croatia is financially viable would be to ask for a loan from the World Bank, which the answer would be NO! Serbia can borrow money because it has something to borrow against unlike Croatia.
Croatia will not join the EU until the refugee matter is settled, like it or not that is a reality. The EU tactic is to have members object; for example, Spain will object then after its concerns are addressed it will be Belgium then Italy and so it goes on and on until the refugee question is settled. The Serbia will sign the SAA by mid 2010.
Your quite right 11 million tourists were in Croatia, but the vast majority only drove through that country to other destinations. You have to pay attention to your Minister for Tourism who admitted that tourism in 2009 was down by 30% compared to 2008, and that year was terrible.
Your infrastructure is owned by foreign interests and, as a Croat told me, if you wanted to travel from say Vukovar to Sibenik it would cost the average Croat a month’s wages in road tolls alone. Nice to have roads that Croats cannot use, eh!
Remember if you want to show Serbs the power of the great Croatian army make sure you first recall the 300 from Afghanistan, you don’t want to be at a disadvantage.

I’m really impressed with Josipovic so far. We all need closure, we all need to know the truth, to know what happened.

Compared to the insanity Mesic has been spouting the last few weeks, I’m simply astounded.

Keep your friends close & your enemies closer, Serbia!

CCCC

I want to qualify my comments regarding Croatia recently. It is indeed a beautiful country ( i have been a hundred times and spent every summer of my childhood there) and the country is far ahead of Serbia in many respects. Much of this has been done with large amounts of debt that they are struggling to handle. The road from Zagreb to Split is indeed fantastic and the trains are modern and run on time ( tracks have a problem with the heat though!)I have many Croatian friends who are some of the finest people I know. My issue is with Mesic and his ilk. It seems his political career revolved around poking Serbia in the eye whenever there was the start of a rapprochement. He used latent, but virulent, Croatian nationalism for his own ends. Now he is gone, i sincerely hope we can be friends again!

Stefan, let me correct your "facts".

You claimed that Croatia as a nation is 3 times richer then Serbia, aswell as the average croatian being 3 times richer then the average Serbian.

Okay, lets just take a quick look at wikepedia and see what they have written there.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia

Now the facts dont really seem to agree with you do they? The marginal between the two countries is minimalistic in terms of GDP (PPP).

Croatia: 82.407 M
Serbia: 79.798

And yes, the average croatian is richer then the average serbian. But 3 times richer? Hardly.

GDP/PC:

Croatia: 18,575
Serbia: 10,810

And thats mostly because we have twice the population as you. You also take into account that we've been bombed twice over a very long period of time, greatly damaging our infrastructure, factories, industry etc. We've also been blackmailed by the western media, which have painted us as the bad guys and thus weakened our reputation and image around the world which has had a negative impact on market of investors.

And yet, the marginal between CRO and SRB in terms of economy are barely marginal.

In the end comparing Serbia and Croatia in terms of economy is like Comparing Kongo And Zimabwe. The People one side might have a goat more to milk. But if you ask them if they are satisfied with their income and their quality of life in the current state, the answer will be most definately no.