Spain favors Belgrade-Priština dialogue

The only path to peace and prosperity for the province leads to the negotiating table.

This realisation will require capable ethnic Albanian leaders who are prepared to stop living in the past and to move the province forward.

Independence is irreversibly blocked so following that path leads to a dead end. Sure we'll get some ethnic Albanian nationalists, living comfortably in the West, stating they would rather starve to death than to negotiation but fortunately they are in no position to dictate terms for those living in the province.

The people will eventually choose peace and prosperity over blind nationalism and crime. They cannot keep themselves in a black hole all of their lives.

This will be the theme of 2010 - negotiations. Face it: your state has failed, you have no control who enters KiM, Serbs control 1/3 of KiM with 10% of the population, the UN has turned its back on you, America is weak, EU depends on Russian energy. ITS OVER! Jug Army Base + S. Stream = Res 1244 HAPPY NEW YEAR!

I dont think Belgrade and Pristina both would call Milosevic Karadic Mladic and co "heros"
(troika melb, 8 January 2010 12:31)
--
You have only confirmed that you're living in the past. That attitude will keep Kosovo in the dark ages I'm afraid.

Dialogue and negotiations will give the people a chance to escape poverty and crime while putting them on the path to lasting peace and prosperity. Thank God it's their choice and not some ultra nationalist living in Coburg.

"That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land."
Demi

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.
(MikeC, 8 January 2010 15:14)


Oh are we albanians immigrants to Kosovo ? Then what are serbs and how did they end up in Kosovo ? But anyway we are now an majority in Kosovo and has been so for more than at least 400 years. You immigrated to Serbia and Kosovo before 700 years ago and today serbs aren't a majority in Kosovo and have not been so for more than 400 years. History have changed and serbs make up only 10 % of the population in Kosovo and that makes them a minority. Belgrade has lost the right to rule over Kosovo and the majority albanians there. We are very serious when we have decided to be independent and there is nothing Serbia can do to changee that. 64 recognition of our country will not disappear and there can only be more to come. Kosovo is a new reality and the goverment in Prishtina is as equal as that in Belgrade on the world stage so why should the one rule over the other ?. The ICJ will be more in our favor of Kosovo than of Serbia.

Personally, I can't see dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina materializing with the current crop of aparatchiks in power.

Might I suggest a 3 - 3 diagloue with some of our more pragmatic blogers here?

Team Belgrade: Mike - Matthew - bganon

Team Pristina: village bey - Amer - Jetoni

Panel Chair: Ataman

We'll do shuttle diplomacy in respective kafane over rakija and pivo. Belgrade side hosts while Albanians bring Peja beer. Albanians host while Serbs bring Lav. By the end of the week, we'll be too fat, dumb, and happy to really care about intractable problems.

Takers?

Someone from the Serb side said the following;

"Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija."

Ok I keep hearing this from the Serbian camp almost on a daily basis. Its as if it was some kind of absolute truth for the other side of the isle. Yet after reading the statement quoted above I can't help but ask.

1.What exactly is illegitime in being voted in office by a popular vote?

2.Why Belgrade's officials do not constitute a Regime while the others do? What are the specific criteria upon which Belgrade's institutions are not regarded as a Regime while those in Kosova are?

3.Exactly what do you have in mind when you say "way out"? Way out from where? Who is in? And what is "IN" exactly?

4.What is there exactly to negotiate if as you're stating its about " The future of of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? It seems redundant to negotiate about something which you know exactly what the outcome already is. That is, it is going to be "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija", according to you. So what need is there to talk to Albanians if you already have the solution, that is "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? If you already have the solution you certainly don't need the Albanians on a table discussing what you already have determined to be the solution.

5.Having said that the following must also be said:

a) The Serbian Constitution was passed in the middle of the negotiating process.

b) The Serbian government excluded the Kosova Albanians from voting for the Constitution hence effectively denying the right to vote to a whole population Serbia claims to be its citizens.

c) Based on this Constitution, which the Kosova Albanian population was excluded from voting, Kosova has the status of an autonomous province within Serbia.

d) The constitution gives the Serbian President the authority to defend such a status.

e) The only institution that has the authority to change such a status is the Serbian Parliament.

f) The only authority that determines what autonomy actually means is the Serbian parliament.

Based on this facts we can conclude the following.

1. The executive branch of the Serbian government has no power to negotiate or change the status of Kosova because the Serbian constitution, which was approved with the exclusion of Albanians from the voting process, denies them any right of doing that. Meaning neither the Serbian President, nor any ministers or any government bodies have any authority of negotiating anything over Kosova. Thus the status of Kosova is whatever the Serbian parliament decides it to be.

2. As a result of Albanians being excluded by the Serbian state from voting for the Constitution which determines their own status; as a result of Albanians of Kosova having no representation in Serbia's Parliament, then the Constitution which delivered the status of Kosova was passed in a unilateral manner by Serbia and without representation of those directly affected by such a decision. Also since this was done in the middle of an international negotiating process, Serbia unilaterally predetermined the outcome of such a process hence unilaterally violating the principle of negotiating in good faith.

3. Because there was an exclusion of the Albanian voters from the Constitution; because there was no representation in the Serbian parliament of Kosova Albanians when the Constitution was passed; because by taking such actions in the middle of a negotiating process Serbia unilaterally violated the principle of negotiating in good faith and thus effectively removed itself from a process where the end result was not to be predetermined by any of the parties; because the Constitution which was passed on such a manner denies those negotiating on Serbia's side any room to negotiate about the status of Kosova, then negotiating makes no sense because there is nothing the Serbian camp can negotiate about. The supreme law of the land, the Constitution, denies the Serbian camp the right to negotiate.

The only negotiation we could have is wich way would be the best way for Serbia to recognize Kosovo as independent without provoking anyone. Kosovo as a part of Serbia is out of the question as long as the population in Kosovo is 90 % albanians.


Zoran, reamamber that the goverment in Prishtina is elected by the citizens of Kosovo and the goverment there dosen't supprt negotiations again. That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land. Serbia has nothing to do with Kosovo and some churches are no reason to claim a territory. With such thinking the turks can claim most of the Balkans.

troika in all honesty your post doesn't make any sense. I don't know if its your train of thought or spelling.

'Kosovo borders all the states that matter to them (to whom Kosovo or bordering states?). they (who?) are not isolated, but the same is not in reverse for Serbia (that is not English)'

Come on, please try to be clearer.

Demi 'That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land. Serbia has nothing to do with Kosovo'

You are wrong on both counts. Perhaps a large majority of Albanians would agree with you on the first point but not all. On the second point a smaller majority of Albanians would agree with the sentiment but they know that Serbia has something to do with Kosovo. If it did not there would be no problem and Kosovo would be in international organisations.

Why is there this constant need for extreme and exaggerated statements. Truly, I can only imagine how difficult some of you are in your personal lives.

On the issue I support the Spanish view that the Kosovo issue can be solved through negotiation. It is the normal and logical thing to do and above all will benefit those living in Kosovo. The current situation is hurting those living in Kosovo the most.

hello bganon

1st (they)Kosovo borders Montenegro Macedonia and Albania, all know and recognise the reality,
Serbia(in reverse) is sorounded by all sides that recognise Kosovo too, excluding Romania with the Hungarian "problem" and Bosnia the home of "hero" Mladic and co.

2nd, to demis post, you have noooo ideal lol, i love the word "perhaps"
,well perhaps god is a woman and the next pope will be openly lesbien, got to give Iceland a chance :)

3rd, the Spanish view is between Belgrade and Pristina
Like Serbias EU integration is between the Hague and Belgrade.

And once more you are wrong that Kosovars have it worst of like this than they had it with the Serb "occupation" of Scorpions, Arkans and the rest of the extremist views of "immigrants".
All of these extremists are still in Serbia, but now they cant jump the border and have a get out of jail free card.

As i said before Serbia has way to many problems of its own and too much heat from its own neighbours that Kosovars have nothing to do with, and dont want to get involved with.


I hope that is good enough English for you. Now learn ;)

"The people will eventually choose peace and prosperity over blind nationalism and crime. They cannot keep themselves in a black hole all of their lives.
(Zoran, 8 "

True, ordinary Serbs cant seam to handle it anymore that werever Vuk goes the "genocide accused" war criminals are mentioned and live between the ordinary people.

Espagna is right, a dialogue is needed for Serbia to come to its sences, as I dont think Belgrade and Pristina both would call Milosevic Karadic Mladic and co "heros"

Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija.
I think Mr. Thaci should first bury the hatchet with fellow Kosovo-Albanian 'poloticians' who he has been fighting with.

Then, the Regime in Printina can speak with one voice with Belgrade regarding what sort of autonomy they would like to be offered.

I am certain of one thing and that is that 'Kosova', in its present statelessness, is unworkable.

If Mr. Thaci, et al, have any cop on, they will look to emulate Vojvodina's functioning autonomy within the Republic of Serbia.

MB,Ireland

@troika melb (and maybe others):
..."excluding Romania with the Hungarian "problem"...

Why do you keep repeating this misconception?
I think the Romanian positiona was already explained previously here, on B92. From the Romanian point of view, there is no "Hungaria problem" - check for yourself the composition of current Romanian govt., there are 5 Hungarians in it, out of 15 ministers!
When is about recognizing Kosovo independence, Romania cares about three things:
1) international law
2) the situation of Moldavia Republic, threatened by the Transdniestr separatists
3) preserving the good relation with its neighbor, Serbia.

Albanian and pro-Albanian contributors: please, try to understand the position of each of the 5 EU countries refusing to recognize Kosovo as independent. Putting everybody in the same bucket will not improve your chances to draw attention from the respective countries...

Ding dong, my name is 1244 and we are in 2010, the year of negotiation...

Mike, am for it :)

Someone from the Serb side said the following;

"Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija."

Ok I keep hearing this from the Serbian camp almost on a daily basis. Its as if it was some kind of absolute truth for the other side of the isle. Yet after reading the statement quoted above I can't help but ask.

1.What exactly is illegitime in being voted in office by a popular vote?

2.Why Belgrade's officials do not constitute a Regime while the others do? What are the specific criteria upon which Belgrade's institutions are not regarded as a Regime while those in Kosova are?

3.Exactly what do you have in mind when you say "way out"? Way out from where? Who is in? And what is "IN" exactly?

4.What is there exactly to negotiate if as you're stating its about " The future of of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? It seems redundant to negotiate about something which you know exactly what the outcome already is. That is, it is going to be "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija", according to you. So what need is there to talk to Albanians if you already have the solution, that is "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? If you already have the solution you certainly don't need the Albanians on a table discussing what you already have determined to be the solution.

5.Having said that the following must also be said:

a) The Serbian Constitution was passed in the middle of the negotiating process.

b) The Serbian government excluded the Kosova Albanians from voting for the Constitution hence effectively denying the right to vote to a whole population Serbia claims to be its citizens.

c) Based on this Constitution, which the Kosova Albanian population was excluded from voting, Kosova has the status of an autonomous province within Serbia.

d) The constitution gives the Serbian President the authority to defend such a status.

e) The only institution that has the authority to change such a status is the Serbian Parliament.

f) The only authority that determines what autonomy actually means is the Serbian parliament.

Based on this facts we can conclude the following.

1. The executive branch of the Serbian government has no power to negotiate or change the status of Kosova because the Serbian constitution, which was approved with the exclusion of Albanians from the voting process, denies them any right of doing that. Meaning neither the Serbian President, nor any ministers or any government bodies have any authority of negotiating anything over Kosova. Thus the status of Kosova is whatever the Serbian parliament decides it to be.

2. As a result of Albanians being excluded by the Serbian state from voting for the Constitution which determines their own status; as a result of Albanians of Kosova having no representation in Serbia's Parliament, then the Constitution which delivered the status of Kosova was passed in a unilateral manner by Serbia and without representation of those directly affected by such a decision. Also since this was done in the middle of an international negotiating process, Serbia unilaterally predetermined the outcome of such a process hence unilaterally violating the principle of negotiating in good faith.

3. Because there was an exclusion of the Albanian voters from the Constitution; because there was no representation in the Serbian parliament of Kosova Albanians when the Constitution was passed; because by taking such actions in the middle of a negotiating process Serbia unilaterally violated the principle of negotiating in good faith and thus effectively removed itself from a process where the end result was not to be predetermined by any of the parties; because the Constitution which was passed on such a manner denies those negotiating on Serbia's side any room to negotiate about the status of Kosova, then negotiating makes no sense because there is nothing the Serbian camp can negotiate about. The supreme law of the land, the Constitution, denies the Serbian camp the right to negotiate.

Troika, your comment helps no one. You are just trying to agitate the Serb side, and not really find any solution. Even the Jews and Arabs must come to the negotiating table for those people to find a solution and move forward. I think the Serbs and Albanians can do the same.

'Amer,

Why don't you support dialogue?
(Mister, 8 January 2010 18:02)'

But I do! Only if both parties freely agree, of course.

For example, I wouldn't push an escaped slave into negotiating his return to a master he'd escaped from. (There used to be a law, and I can't remember whether it was a Roman or a US law, that an escaped slave could be taken to court for theft of his master's property - namely, himself.) That's one example.

When one state takes as its starting point that the other state doesn't exist independently of it, I don't see any chance of success at negotiating their future relations. Of course, what I don't see isn't significant, but Martti Ahtisaari has been in the negotiating business for a long time, and he didn't see any chance of a compromise, and a Troika including Russia didn't, either, so for the time being, getting all sides together to discuss beers seems to be the most productive suggestion offered so far.

BTW, Mike -

In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough.

roberto my relationship with Albanians (and Serbs) is none of your business.

And its funny isn't it, that you, the self appointed advocate of Kosovo Albanians, is telling me off!

Do you think Kosovo Albanians are unable to do that for themselves? So why don't they? Why do I feel more respect from them than I do from you? Why do I have more respect for them than I do for you?

Do you have a God complex, thinking that poor, lesser people need your help and that only you are so enlightened?

Oh and I wouldn't have brought your name into it at all, but it was funny. Its beccause you take yourself too seriously. You might have laughed but perhaps you have never laughed at yourself.

In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough.
(Amer, 8 January 2010 19:22)

Amer, I am all for it. I think two polarizing individuals such as Olf and I would at least add something to the forum... Though I would ask we have some ouzo instead of beer - I'm trying to cut down on the carbs after this holiday season.

They should start with Missing Persons. There are more than 2500 K-Alb missing and responsible for that is Republic of Serbia. I think someone is responsible for their deaths and that someone should be brought to justice, otherwise the entire nation feels the guilt,or at least that is what I think.

Takers?
(Mike, 8 January 2010 17:16)

Beer? Somebody said beer? I think it's a great idea, getting together to discuss beers. No politics, though, the combination of alcohol and politics gives me a headache. (Or maybe it's just the politics?)

Mike now that sounds like a fun idea, do you fancy the job of restraining our side getting progressively more drunk in the background whilst we make compromises. And there would have to be somebody kosova usa maybe to protect Albanians from even sitting down with us at all.

The drinks could be on Roberto, although I suspect he would end up only paying the tab for the Albanian team.

Although you are in jest its a good example. Who would drink a rakija with us and discuss politics and who would not? I wonder if its because they are afraid they would like us and actually we could solve our problems.
I would say this though, much as I like Ataman he is more in the Serb camp, in that case it would only be fair to have an international who was slightly in the Albanian camp as co-chair. But we'd have to be careful with too many drunk cooks spoiling our dealmaking broth.

Troika, we are just from different worlds. If you want to pretend that you are not cutting off your nose to spite your face that is upto you. You think the people of Kosovo are living great. The people of Kosovo know differently. NO I am not interested in presenting obstacles or point scoring. Only in solutions. And to make a solution there must be a deal, like everything in life.

''without the Kosovo-Metohija issue being fully resolved, ..'' Espana must be ill informed. Kosovo issue has been resolved in Feb last year, and Kosovo is an independent country. It is in fact Spain, that needs to resolve what they will do, and whether they will recognise, in the meantime all this talk does not help, and please do leave the Newborn alone.

"Dialogue and negotiations will give the people a chance to escape poverty and crime while putting them on the path to lasting peace and prosperity.
(Zoran,"

Precisely, Kosovars dont want to be responsible for the Serb war criminals still loose on a democratic society.
Let alone the crime and the poverty of Serbia,apart from their freedom or lack of speech, it only would drag them down.
Serbia has enough problems as it is, let alone their superficial links to Russia that never brought anything positive to the Balkans.

KOsovars are european first and good for you that are finaly are finding out about Iddia Spain and China, too bad you dont border neither of them. Kosovo borders all the states that matter to them. they are not isolated, but the same is not in reverse for Serbia ;)

You are too afraid to look back it seams what has been done in order to move forward. And thats were the dialogue should come in.

roberto what a selective memory you have and what a hypocrite you are.

You were offensive to me personally at this site and you have never apologised.

And you continue with your condescending attitude towards me, over and over again.

Its ironic that you lecture us about apologies and condescention when you personally (not in that mythical collective responsibility way that you believe in) did that.

Well roberto let me say this; I have much more respect for Kosovo Albanians than I do for you and your constant looking down at others.

So, no I don't want to communicate with you because you have been offensive and continue to be so. I do want communication with Kosovo Albanians because peace in Kosovo is important to me and to them.

"The idea here seems to be that Spain is somehow going to be able to support Serbia in some important way against Kosovo during its 6-month presidency. It can call for negotiations, but it can also be voted down. And then for the next 3 presidencies, countries that have recognized Kosovo as a sovereign state will be able to support it. [link] "

Amer,

Why don't you support dialogue?

bganon mate, you're miles above roberto in my book. don't waste your time with him. come to our Kafana summit and get drunk with people who are not only genuine about reaching across divides, but can take a punch in the same way they give'em.

Negotiating what?What has Serbia to offer that we Albanians don't have it now? Serbs call Kosovo a failed state,banana republic and whatever goes through you minds.And yet 100% of us Albanians prefer that failed state and that banana republic to the Serbian terror that we went through.It doesn't matter how poor or how corrupt we are we take all that anytime, then being governed by Belgrade. Very few Serbs want to see the truth behind the ICJ play. Kosovo could have been an open question for a long time to come.Instead Serbia asked the ICJ to give an answer.And you will get it. An opinion in Serbia's favor it is as likely as the opinion on Albanian favor. As much as both of our camps like to see that to happen it will be something in the middle unclear and vague opinion filled with sentences open to all kind of interpretations.Serbia has nothing to offer to 2 million Albanians of Kosovo that will make them negotiate their freedom. The only card Serbia can play for some time is the threat of destabilizing the region.Until another NATO bombing happens.

The idea here seems to be that Spain is somehow going to be able to support Serbia in some important way against Kosovo during its 6-month presidency. It can call for negotiations, but it can also be voted down. And then for the next 3 presidencies, countries that have recognized Kosovo as a sovereign state will be able to support it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

There is an international mechanism for determining statehood, and that's recognition by other states, said James Crawford at the ICJ, and he was the authority most quoted, by both sides, during the arguments.

The Georgians are playing it smarter - they're neither ridiculing or demonizing the Abkhazis or the Ossetians, thus keeping open the possibility that if the Russian-backed leaders truly foul up, the populations will someday reconsider returning to Georgia with "more than autonomy, less than independence."

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.
(MikeC, 8 January 2010 15:14)

Allegorically:
United States is and always will be an Indian Land. Good luck on the indians to take their land back. Good luck to Serbs too.

Of course they should negotiate with each other and will have to normalize relations sooner or later. And there are a lot of unresolved issues: missing K-Albanians, return of the Serb refugees in Kosovo, payment of the damages done to Kosovo citizens (Albanian and Serb)during 1998-1999, cooperation between police forces against criminality, and lastly agreement on the border. It is full of issues to be resolved, and I congratulate the Spanish ambassador in reminding us once again.
The problem of Serbia in resolving these issues, as I see it, when it comes to Kosovo, is that the government in Serbia is elected by the people of Serbia (as it normally happens in a democracy), who are far from Kosovo, some don't know enough about Kosovo(understandable for them to do so), some don't care(understandable for them to do so), some believe in the "black hole" tales of Jeremic and co(understandable for them to do so too). The government of Serbia doesn't represent the Serbs of Kosovo, because they are a tiny minority of the Serbian population, and ALL politicians care about majorities who can put them where they want to be(understandable for politicians to do so too). The majority of people in Serbia don't really care about solving the above issues.

Bgannon, I agree with you and have found that someone who is going to be neutral.

FYROM doesn't know which side to support so that makes them perfect.

"In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough." (Amer)

-- So Jason's bringing ouzo to our Kafana Summit? Ok with me. That, along with rakija and beer and I dare say we'll find anything disagreeable on. I'd recommend louie as another alternate for the Albanian side. Not only does he honestly believe in co-existence, he's from Pec so he can snag us a case or three of beer :)

Mike,

I am absolutely down for a little arm chair diplomacy at the Kafana summit, but make my drink Crni Djordje, that stuff is awesome. It’s dark like Guinness and for some reason it’s considered a winter\woman’s beer, but its great. It’s a Bosnian beer not sure if they make it anymore, but it was absolutely my favorite.

That and Bip, “It’s a Hit” and comes in plastic bottles. Maybe more up to Roberto’s fine tastes.

Of course as far as Srpski Sok goes, I’m a loza man, I am Crnagorac after all.

I vote for Roberto picking up the tab as well. I think he owes it to all of us. He can represent the “Western Powers”. Maybe we oughta dig up old Victor (still banned – still complaining about it, ha ha) so Roberto has someone to talk to on his level. I think that’s a match made in heaven right there.

Spain you did your best for Kosovo...by discovering America centuries ago...Thank you!!!

Allegorically:
United States is and always will be an Indian Land. Good luck on the indians to take their land back. Good luck to Serbs too.
(miri, 8 January 2010 19:27)

Finally, an admission that Kosovo is Serbian land.
A big difference between Indians and Serbs.
It would pay to keep that in mind.

>>The drinks could be on Roberto, although I suspect he would end up only paying the tab for the Albanian team.>>

bganon -- you are the one that refused any dialogue with me; remember? so don't be a hypocrite and don't take my name in vain. you wanna talk, i talk. as an equal. and yes, you can pay for yr own drinks.

as for mike, no comment.

personally, i have never opposed negotiations between the relevant parties. there is much to discuss. but as equals, and on an equal footing. the blgd regime showed its ugliest colors in those past so-called negotiations. shameless, and shameful. that game we ain't playing.

there is plenty to talk about, but independence is not on the table, duh.

there are a few from serbia, some i know personally, who have not waited for some magical moment but have already BEEN talking with k-albanians, for years. w/individuals and govt people. this certainly includes sonia B, natasa K, cedi J, andrej nosov, and i am sure many more. they are not waiting for some imaginary special invitation -- they just travel, they talk, the listen, they help, when they can. and they are generally well respected in kosovo/a, regardless of their ethnicity (who cares?!)

so if you want to encourage discourse, stop the condescending lectures to the K albanians, and pls don't wait for me to buy the drinks. just go to pristina or wherever, and start talking. you'll be amazed.

prosit!

roberto
frisco

Ok, so we've got me, Matthew and bganon for Team Belgrade (I am an international - guilty as charged - so it's all good for an international for Team Pristina)

On Team Pristina we've got Amer, village bey and Jetoni (the latter two haven't RSVP'ed yet but I doubt either would say no to what we're bringing)

We've got Jason and Olf for alternates, Ataman (mainly because he's just Atamam) to either moderate or dish out the drinks, and louie for feel-good inspiration (you gotta love the man).

I'm not so sure about our friend in frisco. He seems like he'd get only more moody/brooding with alcohol. Though if we want to get all Yugonostalgic, we can have our summit in Sarajevo. I'm sure he knows a good place or two. There's always Ian UK for another international on your side. I disagree with him at times, but every so often he does the irrational thing by being completely rational (I know, weird right?)

"Maybe we oughta dig up old Victor" (Matthew)

-- Oh my God. What the Hell ever happened to him? Roberto's got the same narcissism, but never as bad as that guy :P

'That, along with rakija and beer and I dare say we'll find anything disagreeable on.

(Mike, 9 January 2010 17:29) '

Heh? Have you gone into training for this already? Looks like I'd better get a move on.

If the internationals are to be represented for your side (an ad hoc judge, as under ICJ rules), then we get Olf. Ataman may be the only one sober after an hour, so maybe he should be chairman, after all.

Louie may be a little too rational, unless all you're up for is a few choruses of Kumbaya. But fine, the more the merrier.

Or do you think there should be tryouts?

Who cares what a state of a third level in Europe is saying?
UK, France, Germany and Italy are the leaders of EU.

"Of course they should negotiate with each other and will have to normalize relations sooner or later. And there are a lot of unresolved issues: missing K-Albanians, return of the Serb refugees in Kosovo, payment of the damages done to Kosovo citizens (Albanian and Serb)during 1998-1999, cooperation between police forces against criminality, and lastly agreement on the border. It is full of issues to be resolved, and I congratulate the Spanish ambassador in reminding us once again.
The problem of Serbia in resolving these issues, as I see it, when it comes to Kosovo, is that the government in Serbia is elected by the people of Serbia (as it normally happens in a democracy), who are far from Kosovo, some don't know enough about Kosovo(understandable for them to do so), some don't care(understandable for them to do so), some believe in the "black hole" tales of Jeremic and co(understandable for them to do so too). The government of Serbia doesn't represent the Serbs of Kosovo, because they are a tiny minority of the Serbian population, and ALL politicians care about majorities who can put them where they want to be(understandable for politicians to do so too). The majority of people in Serbia don't really care about solving the above issues.
(baba bre, 8 January 2010 22:31)"

There is a lot of sense in what you say. However, I have yet to meet any Serb who is not bitter about Kosovo. Many of which are very good compassionate and caring people who make me question my tolerance and understanding of others.

Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic but I think there is a solution. All it needs is the right leaders.

'Amer, I am all for it. I think two polarizing individuals such as Olf and I would at least add something to the forum... Though I would ask we have some ouzo instead of beer - I'm trying to cut down on the carbs after this holiday season.
(Jason, 9 January 2010 12:38)'

Aquavit! I haven't had any since college (Helge - party time!)

The idea is everything for everybody - it's up to you what you drink. But maybe the co-chairmen shouldn't drink? Roberto/Frisco will give us a ruling any minute now.

"BTW,are you coming to the giant beer-rakija-ouzo-aquavit fest? (What's "tramvaj"?? I thought you rode in them?) It probably would be better to leave all Americans and internationals out of it, but that's easier said than done.
(Amer, 9 January 2010 19:54)"

Any excuse for a booze up and I'm in! Tramvaj, in addition to something you ride in, is a bar/club in Belgrade that always has some live music on.

I like the idea of Sarajevo! Maybe everyone should bring a national drink? I'll bring some whisky.

btw, I didn't say anything about K-Albanian's coming under Serbia again.

Amer,

Please don't take me as a blind Serbian supporter. In 1999 I done many things to welcome refugees from Kosovo to my city. Nothing great just collecting clothes and unwanted things and distributing them to those who needed. They were indeed scared and thankful people. I would never deny the brutal way that milosovic acted.

However, people like you and me must see the other side. If the people (whether serbian or albanian) are to have a better life then they need to talk. I think Tadic is the man for that. Serbia is ready but whilst K-Albanians vote for "war heros" of 10 years passed I don't know if they are ready.

You can be unilateral in any dispute but resolution is something different. There is a chance that real people can isolate the idiots and find that resolution. I hope they do.

ps the previous talks were a joke, id like real talks.

"Mike now that sounds like a fun idea, do you fancy the job of restraining our side getting progressively more drunk in the background whilst we make compromises. And there would have to be somebody kosova usa maybe to protect Albanians from even sitting down with us at all. "

Everyone knows the Serbs can't hold their drink. And yes, that is a challenge! I like tramvaj :) And that little bakery next to it does a great burek.

"(johny, 8 January 2010 19:53)?

And back in the real world.....

bganon -- it was YOU who brought up my name, not vis versa. i do not speak to people on the other side, at least as much as is possible. when they bring up my name and/or attack me, that's a different story.

as for the hypocrisy: day after day after day, there are attacks ag. ethnic albanians here. day after day. i was writing and writing about it, with absolutely no reaction. attacks and slurs, and you know i am right. forget about the prolonged personal attaks ag. me and others. and i have never heard you respond to that -- to those ubiquitous attacks, based on ETHNICITY. forget about politics. you know i am telling the truth.

from the other side, utter and complete silence.

and, i am afraid, this kind of attitude follows from the society at large, and the media.

yes, i am laying blame, i am taking sides, i am expecting some honesty here.

that you don't wish to communicate w/ me is perfectly fine, 100% fine with me. that you are silent to what comes across here on a daily basis, that is not ok.

roberto
frisco

Mister -

I am honestly sorry if I gave the impression I considered you wild-eyed nationalist. From personal experience I know there are brave, honest, kind-hearted Serbs. But I really don't think it's going to be possible to get Kosovo's Albanians to discuss coming back to Serbia under any conditions. The best solution for Serbia may be EU membership for both with the removal of borders between them and the possibility for any Serb who wants to, to live in Kosovo. There never have been that many, right? The government had to bribe Serbs to move there. And this is why I think that Kosovo belongs and should belong to its "ethnic Albanians."

BTW,are you coming to the giant beer-rakija-ouzo-aquavit fest? (What's "tramvaj"?? I thought you rode in them?) It probably would be better to leave all Americans and internationals out of it, but that's easier said than done.

(Mike, 9 January 2010 23:34)

Olf has been silent on all this: I may have caused an International Incident by assuming he was Norwegian (hence the aquavit).

Do you think I've ruined everything already?

Funny how much more enthusiastic the people who don't have to live with our decisions are about this than those who do. Do you suppose it's significant?

Anyway, I figure it'll go better if we start off with something we can all drink to - how about "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

'btw, I didn't say anything about K-Albanian's coming under Serbia again.
(Mister, 10 January 2010 17:22) '

Sorry, I may have worked myself up to a high dudgeon (whatever that is, exactly) and started wildly misattributing suggestions and characterizations. It comes from trying to track down quotes in pdfs that "Find" doesn't work in, I think.

Sarajevo sounds good - I was there once, but so long ago I can barely remember it. Now's probably not the best time to go traveling in the region, though - sounds like they've got enough problems without a bunch of boozy foreigners trying to speak languages they barely control. Unless you happen to be a fireman and are handy at pumps.

(Scotch or Irish whiskey?)

""Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."" (Amer)

-- Quite possibly one of the funniest scenes ever captured on film :)

"(Scotch or Irish whiskey?)
(Amer, 11 January 2010 04:26)"

The answer to that question lies in my spelling of Whisky.

Its better for serbia to accept defeat or will face Albanian flood into Central Serbia northern the border with Kosova in Prokuplje.
Its better to make the border more secure than asking to get Prokuplje back to Serbia

"The people will eventually choose peace and prosperity over blind nationalism and crime. They cannot keep themselves in a black hole all of their lives.
(Zoran, 8 "

True, ordinary Serbs cant seam to handle it anymore that werever Vuk goes the "genocide accused" war criminals are mentioned and live between the ordinary people.

Espagna is right, a dialogue is needed for Serbia to come to its sences, as I dont think Belgrade and Pristina both would call Milosevic Karadic Mladic and co "heros"

''without the Kosovo-Metohija issue being fully resolved, ..'' Espana must be ill informed. Kosovo issue has been resolved in Feb last year, and Kosovo is an independent country. It is in fact Spain, that needs to resolve what they will do, and whether they will recognise, in the meantime all this talk does not help, and please do leave the Newborn alone.

This will be the theme of 2010 - negotiations. Face it: your state has failed, you have no control who enters KiM, Serbs control 1/3 of KiM with 10% of the population, the UN has turned its back on you, America is weak, EU depends on Russian energy. ITS OVER! Jug Army Base + S. Stream = Res 1244 HAPPY NEW YEAR!

The only negotiation we could have is wich way would be the best way for Serbia to recognize Kosovo as independent without provoking anyone. Kosovo as a part of Serbia is out of the question as long as the population in Kosovo is 90 % albanians.


Zoran, reamamber that the goverment in Prishtina is elected by the citizens of Kosovo and the goverment there dosen't supprt negotiations again. That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land. Serbia has nothing to do with Kosovo and some churches are no reason to claim a territory. With such thinking the turks can claim most of the Balkans.

"Dialogue and negotiations will give the people a chance to escape poverty and crime while putting them on the path to lasting peace and prosperity.
(Zoran,"

Precisely, Kosovars dont want to be responsible for the Serb war criminals still loose on a democratic society.
Let alone the crime and the poverty of Serbia,apart from their freedom or lack of speech, it only would drag them down.
Serbia has enough problems as it is, let alone their superficial links to Russia that never brought anything positive to the Balkans.

KOsovars are european first and good for you that are finaly are finding out about Iddia Spain and China, too bad you dont border neither of them. Kosovo borders all the states that matter to them. they are not isolated, but the same is not in reverse for Serbia ;)

You are too afraid to look back it seams what has been done in order to move forward. And thats were the dialogue should come in.

"That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land."
Demi

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.

They should start with Missing Persons. There are more than 2500 K-Alb missing and responsible for that is Republic of Serbia. I think someone is responsible for their deaths and that someone should be brought to justice, otherwise the entire nation feels the guilt,or at least that is what I think.

The only path to peace and prosperity for the province leads to the negotiating table.

This realisation will require capable ethnic Albanian leaders who are prepared to stop living in the past and to move the province forward.

Independence is irreversibly blocked so following that path leads to a dead end. Sure we'll get some ethnic Albanian nationalists, living comfortably in the West, stating they would rather starve to death than to negotiation but fortunately they are in no position to dictate terms for those living in the province.

The people will eventually choose peace and prosperity over blind nationalism and crime. They cannot keep themselves in a black hole all of their lives.

hello bganon

1st (they)Kosovo borders Montenegro Macedonia and Albania, all know and recognise the reality,
Serbia(in reverse) is sorounded by all sides that recognise Kosovo too, excluding Romania with the Hungarian "problem" and Bosnia the home of "hero" Mladic and co.

2nd, to demis post, you have noooo ideal lol, i love the word "perhaps"
,well perhaps god is a woman and the next pope will be openly lesbien, got to give Iceland a chance :)

3rd, the Spanish view is between Belgrade and Pristina
Like Serbias EU integration is between the Hague and Belgrade.

And once more you are wrong that Kosovars have it worst of like this than they had it with the Serb "occupation" of Scorpions, Arkans and the rest of the extremist views of "immigrants".
All of these extremists are still in Serbia, but now they cant jump the border and have a get out of jail free card.

As i said before Serbia has way to many problems of its own and too much heat from its own neighbours that Kosovars have nothing to do with, and dont want to get involved with.


I hope that is good enough English for you. Now learn ;)

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.
(MikeC, 8 January 2010 15:14)


Oh are we albanians immigrants to Kosovo ? Then what are serbs and how did they end up in Kosovo ? But anyway we are now an majority in Kosovo and has been so for more than at least 400 years. You immigrated to Serbia and Kosovo before 700 years ago and today serbs aren't a majority in Kosovo and have not been so for more than 400 years. History have changed and serbs make up only 10 % of the population in Kosovo and that makes them a minority. Belgrade has lost the right to rule over Kosovo and the majority albanians there. We are very serious when we have decided to be independent and there is nothing Serbia can do to changee that. 64 recognition of our country will not disappear and there can only be more to come. Kosovo is a new reality and the goverment in Prishtina is as equal as that in Belgrade on the world stage so why should the one rule over the other ?. The ICJ will be more in our favor of Kosovo than of Serbia.

Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija.
I think Mr. Thaci should first bury the hatchet with fellow Kosovo-Albanian 'poloticians' who he has been fighting with.

Then, the Regime in Printina can speak with one voice with Belgrade regarding what sort of autonomy they would like to be offered.

I am certain of one thing and that is that 'Kosova', in its present statelessness, is unworkable.

If Mr. Thaci, et al, have any cop on, they will look to emulate Vojvodina's functioning autonomy within the Republic of Serbia.

MB,Ireland

troika in all honesty your post doesn't make any sense. I don't know if its your train of thought or spelling.

'Kosovo borders all the states that matter to them (to whom Kosovo or bordering states?). they (who?) are not isolated, but the same is not in reverse for Serbia (that is not English)'

Come on, please try to be clearer.

Demi 'That means that there are no albanian on earth wich would want to negotiate with Serbia about our own land. Serbia has nothing to do with Kosovo'

You are wrong on both counts. Perhaps a large majority of Albanians would agree with you on the first point but not all. On the second point a smaller majority of Albanians would agree with the sentiment but they know that Serbia has something to do with Kosovo. If it did not there would be no problem and Kosovo would be in international organisations.

Why is there this constant need for extreme and exaggerated statements. Truly, I can only imagine how difficult some of you are in your personal lives.

On the issue I support the Spanish view that the Kosovo issue can be solved through negotiation. It is the normal and logical thing to do and above all will benefit those living in Kosovo. The current situation is hurting those living in Kosovo the most.

I dont think Belgrade and Pristina both would call Milosevic Karadic Mladic and co "heros"
(troika melb, 8 January 2010 12:31)
--
You have only confirmed that you're living in the past. That attitude will keep Kosovo in the dark ages I'm afraid.

Dialogue and negotiations will give the people a chance to escape poverty and crime while putting them on the path to lasting peace and prosperity. Thank God it's their choice and not some ultra nationalist living in Coburg.

bganon -- it was YOU who brought up my name, not vis versa. i do not speak to people on the other side, at least as much as is possible. when they bring up my name and/or attack me, that's a different story.

as for the hypocrisy: day after day after day, there are attacks ag. ethnic albanians here. day after day. i was writing and writing about it, with absolutely no reaction. attacks and slurs, and you know i am right. forget about the prolonged personal attaks ag. me and others. and i have never heard you respond to that -- to those ubiquitous attacks, based on ETHNICITY. forget about politics. you know i am telling the truth.

from the other side, utter and complete silence.

and, i am afraid, this kind of attitude follows from the society at large, and the media.

yes, i am laying blame, i am taking sides, i am expecting some honesty here.

that you don't wish to communicate w/ me is perfectly fine, 100% fine with me. that you are silent to what comes across here on a daily basis, that is not ok.

roberto
frisco

"The idea here seems to be that Spain is somehow going to be able to support Serbia in some important way against Kosovo during its 6-month presidency. It can call for negotiations, but it can also be voted down. And then for the next 3 presidencies, countries that have recognized Kosovo as a sovereign state will be able to support it. [link] "

Amer,

Why don't you support dialogue?

Ding dong, my name is 1244 and we are in 2010, the year of negotiation...

Mike, am for it :)

Someone from the Serb side said the following;

"Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija."

Ok I keep hearing this from the Serbian camp almost on a daily basis. Its as if it was some kind of absolute truth for the other side of the isle. Yet after reading the statement quoted above I can't help but ask.

1.What exactly is illegitime in being voted in office by a popular vote?

2.Why Belgrade's officials do not constitute a Regime while the others do? What are the specific criteria upon which Belgrade's institutions are not regarded as a Regime while those in Kosova are?

3.Exactly what do you have in mind when you say "way out"? Way out from where? Who is in? And what is "IN" exactly?

4.What is there exactly to negotiate if as you're stating its about " The future of of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? It seems redundant to negotiate about something which you know exactly what the outcome already is. That is, it is going to be "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija", according to you. So what need is there to talk to Albanians if you already have the solution, that is "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? If you already have the solution you certainly don't need the Albanians on a table discussing what you already have determined to be the solution.

5.Having said that the following must also be said:

a) The Serbian Constitution was passed in the middle of the negotiating process.

b) The Serbian government excluded the Kosova Albanians from voting for the Constitution hence effectively denying the right to vote to a whole population Serbia claims to be its citizens.

c) Based on this Constitution, which the Kosova Albanian population was excluded from voting, Kosova has the status of an autonomous province within Serbia.

d) The constitution gives the Serbian President the authority to defend such a status.

e) The only institution that has the authority to change such a status is the Serbian Parliament.

f) The only authority that determines what autonomy actually means is the Serbian parliament.

Based on this facts we can conclude the following.

1. The executive branch of the Serbian government has no power to negotiate or change the status of Kosova because the Serbian constitution, which was approved with the exclusion of Albanians from the voting process, denies them any right of doing that. Meaning neither the Serbian President, nor any ministers or any government bodies have any authority of negotiating anything over Kosova. Thus the status of Kosova is whatever the Serbian parliament decides it to be.

2. As a result of Albanians being excluded by the Serbian state from voting for the Constitution which determines their own status; as a result of Albanians of Kosova having no representation in Serbia's Parliament, then the Constitution which delivered the status of Kosova was passed in a unilateral manner by Serbia and without representation of those directly affected by such a decision. Also since this was done in the middle of an international negotiating process, Serbia unilaterally predetermined the outcome of such a process hence unilaterally violating the principle of negotiating in good faith.

3. Because there was an exclusion of the Albanian voters from the Constitution; because there was no representation in the Serbian parliament of Kosova Albanians when the Constitution was passed; because by taking such actions in the middle of a negotiating process Serbia unilaterally violated the principle of negotiating in good faith and thus effectively removed itself from a process where the end result was not to be predetermined by any of the parties; because the Constitution which was passed on such a manner denies those negotiating on Serbia's side any room to negotiate about the status of Kosova, then negotiating makes no sense because there is nothing the Serbian camp can negotiate about. The supreme law of the land, the Constitution, denies the Serbian camp the right to negotiate.

Allegorically:
United States is and always will be an Indian Land. Good luck on the indians to take their land back. Good luck to Serbs too.
(miri, 8 January 2010 19:27)

Finally, an admission that Kosovo is Serbian land.
A big difference between Indians and Serbs.
It would pay to keep that in mind.

Troika, your comment helps no one. You are just trying to agitate the Serb side, and not really find any solution. Even the Jews and Arabs must come to the negotiating table for those people to find a solution and move forward. I think the Serbs and Albanians can do the same.

The idea here seems to be that Spain is somehow going to be able to support Serbia in some important way against Kosovo during its 6-month presidency. It can call for negotiations, but it can also be voted down. And then for the next 3 presidencies, countries that have recognized Kosovo as a sovereign state will be able to support it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union

There is an international mechanism for determining statehood, and that's recognition by other states, said James Crawford at the ICJ, and he was the authority most quoted, by both sides, during the arguments.

The Georgians are playing it smarter - they're neither ridiculing or demonizing the Abkhazis or the Ossetians, thus keeping open the possibility that if the Russian-backed leaders truly foul up, the populations will someday reconsider returning to Georgia with "more than autonomy, less than independence."

'Amer,

Why don't you support dialogue?
(Mister, 8 January 2010 18:02)'

But I do! Only if both parties freely agree, of course.

For example, I wouldn't push an escaped slave into negotiating his return to a master he'd escaped from. (There used to be a law, and I can't remember whether it was a Roman or a US law, that an escaped slave could be taken to court for theft of his master's property - namely, himself.) That's one example.

When one state takes as its starting point that the other state doesn't exist independently of it, I don't see any chance of success at negotiating their future relations. Of course, what I don't see isn't significant, but Martti Ahtisaari has been in the negotiating business for a long time, and he didn't see any chance of a compromise, and a Troika including Russia didn't, either, so for the time being, getting all sides together to discuss beers seems to be the most productive suggestion offered so far.

BTW, Mike -

In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough.

>>The drinks could be on Roberto, although I suspect he would end up only paying the tab for the Albanian team.>>

bganon -- you are the one that refused any dialogue with me; remember? so don't be a hypocrite and don't take my name in vain. you wanna talk, i talk. as an equal. and yes, you can pay for yr own drinks.

as for mike, no comment.

personally, i have never opposed negotiations between the relevant parties. there is much to discuss. but as equals, and on an equal footing. the blgd regime showed its ugliest colors in those past so-called negotiations. shameless, and shameful. that game we ain't playing.

there is plenty to talk about, but independence is not on the table, duh.

there are a few from serbia, some i know personally, who have not waited for some magical moment but have already BEEN talking with k-albanians, for years. w/individuals and govt people. this certainly includes sonia B, natasa K, cedi J, andrej nosov, and i am sure many more. they are not waiting for some imaginary special invitation -- they just travel, they talk, the listen, they help, when they can. and they are generally well respected in kosovo/a, regardless of their ethnicity (who cares?!)

so if you want to encourage discourse, stop the condescending lectures to the K albanians, and pls don't wait for me to buy the drinks. just go to pristina or wherever, and start talking. you'll be amazed.

prosit!

roberto
frisco

Someone from the Serb side said the following;

"Sure even the illegal Regime in Pristina know that the only way out for them is to negotiate with the Belgrade Government over the future of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija."

Ok I keep hearing this from the Serbian camp almost on a daily basis. Its as if it was some kind of absolute truth for the other side of the isle. Yet after reading the statement quoted above I can't help but ask.

1.What exactly is illegitime in being voted in office by a popular vote?

2.Why Belgrade's officials do not constitute a Regime while the others do? What are the specific criteria upon which Belgrade's institutions are not regarded as a Regime while those in Kosova are?

3.Exactly what do you have in mind when you say "way out"? Way out from where? Who is in? And what is "IN" exactly?

4.What is there exactly to negotiate if as you're stating its about " The future of of the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? It seems redundant to negotiate about something which you know exactly what the outcome already is. That is, it is going to be "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija", according to you. So what need is there to talk to Albanians if you already have the solution, that is "the Southern Serbian Province of Kosovo i Metohija"? If you already have the solution you certainly don't need the Albanians on a table discussing what you already have determined to be the solution.

5.Having said that the following must also be said:

a) The Serbian Constitution was passed in the middle of the negotiating process.

b) The Serbian government excluded the Kosova Albanians from voting for the Constitution hence effectively denying the right to vote to a whole population Serbia claims to be its citizens.

c) Based on this Constitution, which the Kosova Albanian population was excluded from voting, Kosova has the status of an autonomous province within Serbia.

d) The constitution gives the Serbian President the authority to defend such a status.

e) The only institution that has the authority to change such a status is the Serbian Parliament.

f) The only authority that determines what autonomy actually means is the Serbian parliament.

Based on this facts we can conclude the following.

1. The executive branch of the Serbian government has no power to negotiate or change the status of Kosova because the Serbian constitution, which was approved with the exclusion of Albanians from the voting process, denies them any right of doing that. Meaning neither the Serbian President, nor any ministers or any government bodies have any authority of negotiating anything over Kosova. Thus the status of Kosova is whatever the Serbian parliament decides it to be.

2. As a result of Albanians being excluded by the Serbian state from voting for the Constitution which determines their own status; as a result of Albanians of Kosova having no representation in Serbia's Parliament, then the Constitution which delivered the status of Kosova was passed in a unilateral manner by Serbia and without representation of those directly affected by such a decision. Also since this was done in the middle of an international negotiating process, Serbia unilaterally predetermined the outcome of such a process hence unilaterally violating the principle of negotiating in good faith.

3. Because there was an exclusion of the Albanian voters from the Constitution; because there was no representation in the Serbian parliament of Kosova Albanians when the Constitution was passed; because by taking such actions in the middle of a negotiating process Serbia unilaterally violated the principle of negotiating in good faith and thus effectively removed itself from a process where the end result was not to be predetermined by any of the parties; because the Constitution which was passed on such a manner denies those negotiating on Serbia's side any room to negotiate about the status of Kosova, then negotiating makes no sense because there is nothing the Serbian camp can negotiate about. The supreme law of the land, the Constitution, denies the Serbian camp the right to negotiate.

Personally, I can't see dialogue between Belgrade and Pristina materializing with the current crop of aparatchiks in power.

Might I suggest a 3 - 3 diagloue with some of our more pragmatic blogers here?

Team Belgrade: Mike - Matthew - bganon

Team Pristina: village bey - Amer - Jetoni

Panel Chair: Ataman

We'll do shuttle diplomacy in respective kafane over rakija and pivo. Belgrade side hosts while Albanians bring Peja beer. Albanians host while Serbs bring Lav. By the end of the week, we'll be too fat, dumb, and happy to really care about intractable problems.

Takers?

Takers?
(Mike, 8 January 2010 17:16)

Beer? Somebody said beer? I think it's a great idea, getting together to discuss beers. No politics, though, the combination of alcohol and politics gives me a headache. (Or maybe it's just the politics?)

You are just immigrants to Kosovo. Uncontrollable birthrates and the expulsion of Serbs have made albanians a majority in Kosovo. The territory on which albanians in Kosovo live is and will always be Serbian. As long as Serbia doesn't recognize Kosovo it will always have the right to claim it as its own. And that is what Serbia is doing.
(MikeC, 8 January 2010 15:14)

Allegorically:
United States is and always will be an Indian Land. Good luck on the indians to take their land back. Good luck to Serbs too.

Spain you did your best for Kosovo...by discovering America centuries ago...Thank you!!!

roberto what a selective memory you have and what a hypocrite you are.

You were offensive to me personally at this site and you have never apologised.

And you continue with your condescending attitude towards me, over and over again.

Its ironic that you lecture us about apologies and condescention when you personally (not in that mythical collective responsibility way that you believe in) did that.

Well roberto let me say this; I have much more respect for Kosovo Albanians than I do for you and your constant looking down at others.

So, no I don't want to communicate with you because you have been offensive and continue to be so. I do want communication with Kosovo Albanians because peace in Kosovo is important to me and to them.

Negotiating what?What has Serbia to offer that we Albanians don't have it now? Serbs call Kosovo a failed state,banana republic and whatever goes through you minds.And yet 100% of us Albanians prefer that failed state and that banana republic to the Serbian terror that we went through.It doesn't matter how poor or how corrupt we are we take all that anytime, then being governed by Belgrade. Very few Serbs want to see the truth behind the ICJ play. Kosovo could have been an open question for a long time to come.Instead Serbia asked the ICJ to give an answer.And you will get it. An opinion in Serbia's favor it is as likely as the opinion on Albanian favor. As much as both of our camps like to see that to happen it will be something in the middle unclear and vague opinion filled with sentences open to all kind of interpretations.Serbia has nothing to offer to 2 million Albanians of Kosovo that will make them negotiate their freedom. The only card Serbia can play for some time is the threat of destabilizing the region.Until another NATO bombing happens.

Bgannon, I agree with you and have found that someone who is going to be neutral.

FYROM doesn't know which side to support so that makes them perfect.

Who cares what a state of a third level in Europe is saying?
UK, France, Germany and Italy are the leaders of EU.

Its better for serbia to accept defeat or will face Albanian flood into Central Serbia northern the border with Kosova in Prokuplje.
Its better to make the border more secure than asking to get Prokuplje back to Serbia

@troika melb (and maybe others):
..."excluding Romania with the Hungarian "problem"...

Why do you keep repeating this misconception?
I think the Romanian positiona was already explained previously here, on B92. From the Romanian point of view, there is no "Hungaria problem" - check for yourself the composition of current Romanian govt., there are 5 Hungarians in it, out of 15 ministers!
When is about recognizing Kosovo independence, Romania cares about three things:
1) international law
2) the situation of Moldavia Republic, threatened by the Transdniestr separatists
3) preserving the good relation with its neighbor, Serbia.

Albanian and pro-Albanian contributors: please, try to understand the position of each of the 5 EU countries refusing to recognize Kosovo as independent. Putting everybody in the same bucket will not improve your chances to draw attention from the respective countries...

Of course they should negotiate with each other and will have to normalize relations sooner or later. And there are a lot of unresolved issues: missing K-Albanians, return of the Serb refugees in Kosovo, payment of the damages done to Kosovo citizens (Albanian and Serb)during 1998-1999, cooperation between police forces against criminality, and lastly agreement on the border. It is full of issues to be resolved, and I congratulate the Spanish ambassador in reminding us once again.
The problem of Serbia in resolving these issues, as I see it, when it comes to Kosovo, is that the government in Serbia is elected by the people of Serbia (as it normally happens in a democracy), who are far from Kosovo, some don't know enough about Kosovo(understandable for them to do so), some don't care(understandable for them to do so), some believe in the "black hole" tales of Jeremic and co(understandable for them to do so too). The government of Serbia doesn't represent the Serbs of Kosovo, because they are a tiny minority of the Serbian population, and ALL politicians care about majorities who can put them where they want to be(understandable for politicians to do so too). The majority of people in Serbia don't really care about solving the above issues.

Mike now that sounds like a fun idea, do you fancy the job of restraining our side getting progressively more drunk in the background whilst we make compromises. And there would have to be somebody kosova usa maybe to protect Albanians from even sitting down with us at all.

The drinks could be on Roberto, although I suspect he would end up only paying the tab for the Albanian team.

Although you are in jest its a good example. Who would drink a rakija with us and discuss politics and who would not? I wonder if its because they are afraid they would like us and actually we could solve our problems.
I would say this though, much as I like Ataman he is more in the Serb camp, in that case it would only be fair to have an international who was slightly in the Albanian camp as co-chair. But we'd have to be careful with too many drunk cooks spoiling our dealmaking broth.

Troika, we are just from different worlds. If you want to pretend that you are not cutting off your nose to spite your face that is upto you. You think the people of Kosovo are living great. The people of Kosovo know differently. NO I am not interested in presenting obstacles or point scoring. Only in solutions. And to make a solution there must be a deal, like everything in life.

Mike,

I am absolutely down for a little arm chair diplomacy at the Kafana summit, but make my drink Crni Djordje, that stuff is awesome. It’s dark like Guinness and for some reason it’s considered a winter\woman’s beer, but its great. It’s a Bosnian beer not sure if they make it anymore, but it was absolutely my favorite.

That and Bip, “It’s a Hit” and comes in plastic bottles. Maybe more up to Roberto’s fine tastes.

Of course as far as Srpski Sok goes, I’m a loza man, I am Crnagorac after all.

I vote for Roberto picking up the tab as well. I think he owes it to all of us. He can represent the “Western Powers”. Maybe we oughta dig up old Victor (still banned – still complaining about it, ha ha) so Roberto has someone to talk to on his level. I think that’s a match made in heaven right there.

Ok, so we've got me, Matthew and bganon for Team Belgrade (I am an international - guilty as charged - so it's all good for an international for Team Pristina)

On Team Pristina we've got Amer, village bey and Jetoni (the latter two haven't RSVP'ed yet but I doubt either would say no to what we're bringing)

We've got Jason and Olf for alternates, Ataman (mainly because he's just Atamam) to either moderate or dish out the drinks, and louie for feel-good inspiration (you gotta love the man).

I'm not so sure about our friend in frisco. He seems like he'd get only more moody/brooding with alcohol. Though if we want to get all Yugonostalgic, we can have our summit in Sarajevo. I'm sure he knows a good place or two. There's always Ian UK for another international on your side. I disagree with him at times, but every so often he does the irrational thing by being completely rational (I know, weird right?)

"Maybe we oughta dig up old Victor" (Matthew)

-- Oh my God. What the Hell ever happened to him? Roberto's got the same narcissism, but never as bad as that guy :P

roberto my relationship with Albanians (and Serbs) is none of your business.

And its funny isn't it, that you, the self appointed advocate of Kosovo Albanians, is telling me off!

Do you think Kosovo Albanians are unable to do that for themselves? So why don't they? Why do I feel more respect from them than I do from you? Why do I have more respect for them than I do for you?

Do you have a God complex, thinking that poor, lesser people need your help and that only you are so enlightened?

Oh and I wouldn't have brought your name into it at all, but it was funny. Its beccause you take yourself too seriously. You might have laughed but perhaps you have never laughed at yourself.

'btw, I didn't say anything about K-Albanian's coming under Serbia again.
(Mister, 10 January 2010 17:22) '

Sorry, I may have worked myself up to a high dudgeon (whatever that is, exactly) and started wildly misattributing suggestions and characterizations. It comes from trying to track down quotes in pdfs that "Find" doesn't work in, I think.

Sarajevo sounds good - I was there once, but so long ago I can barely remember it. Now's probably not the best time to go traveling in the region, though - sounds like they've got enough problems without a bunch of boozy foreigners trying to speak languages they barely control. Unless you happen to be a fireman and are handy at pumps.

(Scotch or Irish whiskey?)

Amer,

Please don't take me as a blind Serbian supporter. In 1999 I done many things to welcome refugees from Kosovo to my city. Nothing great just collecting clothes and unwanted things and distributing them to those who needed. They were indeed scared and thankful people. I would never deny the brutal way that milosovic acted.

However, people like you and me must see the other side. If the people (whether serbian or albanian) are to have a better life then they need to talk. I think Tadic is the man for that. Serbia is ready but whilst K-Albanians vote for "war heros" of 10 years passed I don't know if they are ready.

You can be unilateral in any dispute but resolution is something different. There is a chance that real people can isolate the idiots and find that resolution. I hope they do.

ps the previous talks were a joke, id like real talks.

"Of course they should negotiate with each other and will have to normalize relations sooner or later. And there are a lot of unresolved issues: missing K-Albanians, return of the Serb refugees in Kosovo, payment of the damages done to Kosovo citizens (Albanian and Serb)during 1998-1999, cooperation between police forces against criminality, and lastly agreement on the border. It is full of issues to be resolved, and I congratulate the Spanish ambassador in reminding us once again.
The problem of Serbia in resolving these issues, as I see it, when it comes to Kosovo, is that the government in Serbia is elected by the people of Serbia (as it normally happens in a democracy), who are far from Kosovo, some don't know enough about Kosovo(understandable for them to do so), some don't care(understandable for them to do so), some believe in the "black hole" tales of Jeremic and co(understandable for them to do so too). The government of Serbia doesn't represent the Serbs of Kosovo, because they are a tiny minority of the Serbian population, and ALL politicians care about majorities who can put them where they want to be(understandable for politicians to do so too). The majority of people in Serbia don't really care about solving the above issues.
(baba bre, 8 January 2010 22:31)"

There is a lot of sense in what you say. However, I have yet to meet any Serb who is not bitter about Kosovo. Many of which are very good compassionate and caring people who make me question my tolerance and understanding of others.

Maybe I'm hopelessly optimistic but I think there is a solution. All it needs is the right leaders.

"Mike now that sounds like a fun idea, do you fancy the job of restraining our side getting progressively more drunk in the background whilst we make compromises. And there would have to be somebody kosova usa maybe to protect Albanians from even sitting down with us at all. "

Everyone knows the Serbs can't hold their drink. And yes, that is a challenge! I like tramvaj :) And that little bakery next to it does a great burek.

"(johny, 8 January 2010 19:53)?

And back in the real world.....

In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough.
(Amer, 8 January 2010 19:22)

Amer, I am all for it. I think two polarizing individuals such as Olf and I would at least add something to the forum... Though I would ask we have some ouzo instead of beer - I'm trying to cut down on the carbs after this holiday season.

"In the interest of keeping everyone (or me, at least) awake after the second round, I suggest Jason and Olf as co-chairman. Not to take anything away from Ataman, but he just doesn't sound loud enough." (Amer)

-- So Jason's bringing ouzo to our Kafana Summit? Ok with me. That, along with rakija and beer and I dare say we'll find anything disagreeable on. I'd recommend louie as another alternate for the Albanian side. Not only does he honestly believe in co-existence, he's from Pec so he can snag us a case or three of beer :)

'That, along with rakija and beer and I dare say we'll find anything disagreeable on.

(Mike, 9 January 2010 17:29) '

Heh? Have you gone into training for this already? Looks like I'd better get a move on.

If the internationals are to be represented for your side (an ad hoc judge, as under ICJ rules), then we get Olf. Ataman may be the only one sober after an hour, so maybe he should be chairman, after all.

Louie may be a little too rational, unless all you're up for is a few choruses of Kumbaya. But fine, the more the merrier.

Or do you think there should be tryouts?

'Amer, I am all for it. I think two polarizing individuals such as Olf and I would at least add something to the forum... Though I would ask we have some ouzo instead of beer - I'm trying to cut down on the carbs after this holiday season.
(Jason, 9 January 2010 12:38)'

Aquavit! I haven't had any since college (Helge - party time!)

The idea is everything for everybody - it's up to you what you drink. But maybe the co-chairmen shouldn't drink? Roberto/Frisco will give us a ruling any minute now.

Mister -

I am honestly sorry if I gave the impression I considered you wild-eyed nationalist. From personal experience I know there are brave, honest, kind-hearted Serbs. But I really don't think it's going to be possible to get Kosovo's Albanians to discuss coming back to Serbia under any conditions. The best solution for Serbia may be EU membership for both with the removal of borders between them and the possibility for any Serb who wants to, to live in Kosovo. There never have been that many, right? The government had to bribe Serbs to move there. And this is why I think that Kosovo belongs and should belong to its "ethnic Albanians."

BTW,are you coming to the giant beer-rakija-ouzo-aquavit fest? (What's "tramvaj"?? I thought you rode in them?) It probably would be better to leave all Americans and internationals out of it, but that's easier said than done.

bganon mate, you're miles above roberto in my book. don't waste your time with him. come to our Kafana summit and get drunk with people who are not only genuine about reaching across divides, but can take a punch in the same way they give'em.

(Mike, 9 January 2010 23:34)

Olf has been silent on all this: I may have caused an International Incident by assuming he was Norwegian (hence the aquavit).

Do you think I've ruined everything already?

Funny how much more enthusiastic the people who don't have to live with our decisions are about this than those who do. Do you suppose it's significant?

Anyway, I figure it'll go better if we start off with something we can all drink to - how about "Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

"BTW,are you coming to the giant beer-rakija-ouzo-aquavit fest? (What's "tramvaj"?? I thought you rode in them?) It probably would be better to leave all Americans and internationals out of it, but that's easier said than done.
(Amer, 9 January 2010 19:54)"

Any excuse for a booze up and I'm in! Tramvaj, in addition to something you ride in, is a bar/club in Belgrade that always has some live music on.

I like the idea of Sarajevo! Maybe everyone should bring a national drink? I'll bring some whisky.

btw, I didn't say anything about K-Albanian's coming under Serbia again.

""Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."" (Amer)

-- Quite possibly one of the funniest scenes ever captured on film :)

"(Scotch or Irish whiskey?)
(Amer, 11 January 2010 04:26)"

The answer to that question lies in my spelling of Whisky.