Thursday, 07.01.2010.
12:20
The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.
Izvor: Beta
pre 14 godina
Don't blame Dodik for this FairPlay, long before he was proposing this referendum the EU were trying to create a more centralised constitution which neither the Serbs or Croats want with the clear long term aim of getting rid of Republika Srpska. Inzko gambled and underestimated Dodik's will to resist, now he's paying the price.
pre 14 godina
'If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?'
The Croats won't do anything Tim, they got less out of Dayton than the Serbs. Even Mesic, the most anti-Serb around, said himself that if Republika Srpska secedes the Croats will have to follow suit.
pre 14 godina
'There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.'
Any agreement also had to be acceptable to Serbia as well Amer, hence political settlement.
I believe it was one of Russia's arguments at the ICK that in 1999 when the situation of Kosovar Albanians was at its worst, nobody dared to mention independence as an option, so if the violations of Albanian rights weren't enough to justify independence then, why are they now?
If talks had broken down then surely if any solution should have been imposed, it should have been the one that did comply the the instruction of 1244, Serbia's proposal.
Of course another change to the Serbian constitution would be required and it would have to be ratified by the Serbian parliament. If the Belgrade parliament refused to do this, then and only then should independence have been considered.
pre 14 godina
If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?
pre 14 godina
If Kosovo independency is an "exception" it points to admitted fact that the action is illegal. Otherwise, why should its supporters call it as an exception? From what?
pre 14 godina
Dose of reality for Dodik and co. The only document in which the RS entity exists are the Dayton Pace Agreements. Without Dayton the two entities simply do not exist from a legal point of view. The time has come for Dodik to remove himself from the stage or to be removed by force. We've had enough of his hateful rhetoric and if its allowed to continue unchallenged then a breakout of violence will become inevitable. A Peace Agreement only guarantees peace as long as all parties respect the agreement. If Dodik does not respect Dayton then Dayton doesn't exist and neither does his entity. We're watching Dodik the conductor driving his train right off the cliff. An event like this has not happened since Milosevic drove his own train off the cliff in 1998.
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Where is Russia to help the Serbs out of yet another humiliation. This is a test of true Slavic friendship. The Russians are nowhere to be found, just concerned with their own selfish interests!
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Power is the only thing that matters.
If you can do it - do it!
It would violate Dayton Agreement?
Take us to ICJ for oppinion?
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'Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, ... meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
(Sam, 9 January 2010 14:32) '
There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.
Now, you may say that simply refusing to accept an offer from the other side is not fair, but during the negotiations, Serbia put into place a new constitution. No Albanians had any input into this constitution, and the Albanians of Kosovo were not allowed to vote in the referendum on it. And while this constitution proclaimed in its preamble that Kosovo was an autonomous province, its operative paragraphs stipulated that every right was to be determined by Parliament - that is, Kosovo's rights would be at the pleasure of the government in Belgrade, meaning that it would have no effective autonomy.
The new constitution also required the negotiators to defend Serbia's control over Kosovo - made it a "constitutional duty" - thereby binding the hands of the Serbian negotiators as much as Kosovo's negotiators were bound by their people's demands for independence.
If you don't trust Ahtisaari, what about the Russian team in the Troika? They also found that there was no chance of a compromise, that talks had broken down irretrievably, and nobody has yet said that they were biased against Serbia.
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"The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
(Ron, 9 January 2010 02:45)"
Under international law, as we've discussed already, Abkhazia is a different case.
So far, Tibet hasn't - as far as anyone has heard - declared independence. If it does, and if the Tibetans are able to establish an "effective government" (that is, if the Chinese don't wipe them out using military force), they probably would have a right under international law to be recognized as an independent country. Are you volunteering to go and help fight off 1-point-something billion Chinese to defend their independence? Neither is NATO. Nor the Russians.
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The main phrases to pick out from 1244 are 'meaningful self-determination', 'substantial autonomy' and 'maintaining the territorial integrity of the FR Yugosalavia'. Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, as most countries on Serbia's side at the ICJ argued, meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
As for Bosnia, the double standards of allowing 15% of Serbia independence whilst forcing 40% of Bosnia to remain part of a country they don't want to live in wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for these ridiculous constitutional changes that are being proposed. IS Inzko really surprised the Serbs aren't willing to give up everything they fought for just for EU membership when they are looking over the border and seeing that their own people have had Visa restrictions abolished whilst they are kept for Bosnian Serbs purely because of the selfishness of the Muslims and the West.
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As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
(Amer, 8 January 2010 21:21)
What happened to 'the law applies to all'?
There should not be a difference between rich, strong, big nations and poor, weak, small nations.
That's why I oppose Kosovo independence. I do not like special deals based on power politics.
If you want an indepedent Kosovo try to change the rules (1244, international law). But do not cheat.
I hate cheaters!!
The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
By the way: anyone here thinks that Abkhazia will ever return to Georgia?
pre 14 godina
Note to Dodik: if you could have you would have. That's simply the facts on the ground. He has talked about these referendums for years now, right around election time one might add, but has never gone further then talking. Why? Obviously because he knows that he can't get away with it. If he breaches Dayton then his entity goes down the drain and he will become the leader of something that doesn't legaly exist, i.e. an imagined leader if you will. Dodik's is a clear case of "the emperor has no clothes". He cried wolf ten times by know and we have yet to see one, I'm starting ot doubt that the wolf even exists. Here's an important difference however, this time Dodik has not made his call for a referendum conditional, i.e. he has not used it in order to get a specific political concession but has rather stated that he will call on a referendum no matter what. This is a crucial mistake on his part since he can not leverage the referendum against anything anymore, he has laid all his cards on the table and the other players are seeing that his cards are weak. He has finally given away the mystique that had made such an interesting character. He basically stated that "I will do what I want and you can't stop me" which is a very naive political gamble which will cost him his political career. Milosevic tried going with his head through the wall but eventually realized that the wall is a formidable oponent, let's see how Dodik relives that experience.
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(Sandro from Tuzla, 8 January 2010 13:53)
Yes, recognition of Kosovo did violated international laws, but it’s now a stagnant region where nothing is happening. Here is some very important news for you Bosniaks; the Dayton Agreement has an “exit clause” – meaning that if after a decade RS can hold a referendum to leave Bosnia. Why do you think your politicians never published the full text of the Agreement nor what they signed – ask Haris S.
Listen to this logic – Albanians in Kosovo can break away from Serbia, but Serbs in Bosnia cannot. Are you for real????
War is the only threat left to Bosniaks but I tell you this, anyone that lifts a finger in Bosnia is finished forever. This is not 1999, but 2010, and the geopolitical situation has changed dramatically.
According to your logic the US will withdraw its forces from killing Moslems in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere to protect Moslems in Bosnia????? I hope you guys never find out just how few so called friends you have in 2010.
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why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
(gajo, 7 January 2010 14:56)
If this is not the ultimate hypocrisy I don't know what is.
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So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52)
Sure any of those you mention can split. Or at least declare that they've split. There is nothing on the international level that prevents and intent of splitting. However whether or not you have split is a different matter that depends on.
1. Reality on the ground.
2. International recognition or at least understanding that you've really split.
Once those places have accomplished the two points above then for all intents and purposes they've split.
Same with RS. As far as I see they have number 1 down while they don't have international backing. So I guess they're still in.
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'Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52) '
Another of the violations making a declaration of independence illegal is a foreign intervention or the use of armed force. Why do you think no one has recognized Abkhazia or South Ossetia? (Ok, ok - Venezuela and Nicaragua took the opportunity to stick out their tongues at the U.S. and suck up to Russia).
As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
If you are interested in international law, go to the experts, don't rely on my interpretation of what they say.
The oral pleadings are much shorter than the written statements, and you can follow how the two sides respond to each others' claims and counterclaims over the two weeks. If nothing else, it'll give you an idea of how complicated international law can be.
pre 14 godina
Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
pre 14 godina
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
(Niall O'Doherty, 8 January 2010 10:39)
I'm no expert, I've just read what the experts said at the ICJ public hearings, where Resolution 1244 was analyzed to a fare-thee-well ("the utmost degree") - nothing in it precluded independence for Kosovo or required Serbia's consent to the final agreement. Serbia recognized this on at least 3 separate occasions - when it refused to sign the Rambouillet accords, when it attempted to have the draft language changed, and when it asked SC members to reject the resolution. In all cases Serbia's representatives did this because realized the document would lead to Serbia's loss of Kosovo.
The Helsinki Agreement is an agreement between states and doesn't affect domestic constitutional arrangements, such as declarations of independence. Helsinki also calls for its provisions to all be taken into account whenever it is invoked, and these include the right to self-determination.
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'This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
(JC, 8 January 2010 16:50) '
Funny, this was the one argument that nobody - not Serbia, not Russia, not Argentina - made at the public hearings or in the written statements on Kosovo's declaration of independence: that the air campaign had been illegal. Very likely because no one wanted to start a discussion of the emerging "right to protect" or the legality of "humanitarian interventions" under international law. The NATO air campaign was indirectly and retrospectively accepted by the UNSC as legal by Resolution 1244 when it required "substantial NATO participation" in the peacekeeping force in Kosovo.
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To Niall
1981 "riots" were not directed to dissolving Yugo,but to make it stronger and more just. Your partial memory must have omitted the fact that in the same protests chants of Tito, unity and equality were the motto.
In addition, when you mentioned the "meat packing glitterati" you forgot to add Slobo and Putin.
You calling on someone's "fake moral outrage" is as Ben Laden calling another terrorist.
To Bes, RS signed an agreement to stay within BiH Federation. Obviously, you are as informed as our self-proclaimed demi-god Niall O'Doherty.
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Bosnia can not be expected to pay the price for Serbia's loss of Kosovo. There is higher percentage of Serbs in Montenegro than in Bosnia, divide Montenegro if you feel injustice in Kosovo warrants injustice somewhere else, leave Bosnia alone.
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"A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation"
This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
The West can't have it both ways -- if they want Bosnia to remain whole, they must support a whole Serbia (with Kosovo).
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If RS gains their independence, then it would just bring a bad image to the Serbian people Internationally, but Domestically I think you would be quite happy another thing is, you people cant blame Kosovo and use it as an example when talking about RS because what happened to Kosovo was not only Illegal but also unusual. Sure, there is many mistakes but Kosovo never violated a International treaty. If Milorad Dodik was to succeed from Bosnia then he would be breaking the Dayton Agreement. Sure many Serbians would be against my comment but I believe it would be in the best interest of the Serbian people both Economically and Physically to leave their country as it is. Knowing many Bosnians and Muslims, they wouldn't like their country to be torn apart, which means their would be a war and Serbia couldn't afford a war right now because they are on a path to EU membership and their future looks good. However, if there was another war then Russia, Serbia would help their people in Bosnia but I think the Muslims have more freinds than anyone.
Peace.
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Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 15:29)
Yeah boyo, those 1981 riots were a blast :)
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Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 16:46)
I agree. Its a pity you choose to be selective regarding your moral indignation about the dispaced 500,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma, Gorani & Bosniaks refugees inside Serbia after being ethnically cleansed from Krajina, BiH and Kosmet respectively.
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even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
(roberto, 7 January 2010 17:53)
Good old Roberto at it agian with the fake moral outrage. When Serbs are on the receiving end our self appointed 'moral guide' is conspicious by his absense. Ah spare us the bleeding heart liberal nonsense will you mate.
In Serbia in case you hadnt noticed there resides many ethnic minorities. With the excEption of 2 million Albanians in the AP Kosmet, there are 300,000+ Hungarians as well as 200,000+ Slovaks, Czechs, Jews, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Albanians, Roma etc. not to mention 250,000 Muslims in Sandzak. I think they are doing ok. I take it you have never been to Serbia to come up with that gem.
Speaking of demagogues, I can think of Reagan, Clinton, Blair, Olmert, Sharon, Bush and all the other meat packing glitterati like Galtieri and Pinochet but obviously they dont surface on your moral compass for whatever reason. I suspect thats down to your racist biased against Serbs & Roma.
Now if any of your bleeding heart liberals try to 'scrap' Dodik or RS, then its a sure bet that you will be in your worlds "playing with fire". It wont be just any old fire mate, it will be Balkan fire, extra blue flame too.
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A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
Honest to God, the Albanian hypernationalists are making fools of themselves. Rushing to Sarajevo's defence bleating on about BiH right to territorial integrity & sovereingty while denying that right to Belgrade with their own UDI.
Hypocrites.
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Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo...
Krajna is integral part of Croatia and will stay such, no matter how many Serbs return. Kosovo “return” poses a great danger to Serbia. Why on Earth would you want 2 million Albanian “compatriots”? If they vote in Serbian elections, the country would become ungovernable.
Srpska is a different story. It has a clear Serbian majority and if it persists in its efforts, sooner or later it may find a way of getting reintegrated with Serbia in one form or another. But it could happen only in co-operation with Croatia, and the international community. To achieve it the Serbs must offer a solution for the Muslims. Nobody wants two or three Muslim Gaza Strips in Europe. May be a Serbo-Croat reconciliation, which will immediately render BiH a Christian majority country is the first step.
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Im really getting sick of this internationals telling Serbs from RS that they cant be independent, the 90% of RS are Serbs. They deserve freedom just like Kosovars and they dont wont anything to do with boshnjaks or croats, do the referendum let people decide and lets close this chapter for ones.
Also Ive been on this web site many times for a very long time reading comments from proserb and proalbo and it makes me really mad that kosovars would even care whats going on in Bosnia.
WE KOSOVARS SHOULD NOT GO ON THIS SITE AND POST NEGATIVE ABOUT THE SERBS FROM RS IF THEY WANT INDEPENDENCE IM WITH U HOPEFULLY AM NOT THE ONLY ONE(ALBANIAN) FIRST HERE HELLO EVERYONE.
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The Kosovo Albanians were "allowed" (I used this term loosely) their independence from Serbia, why can't Republika Srpska from BiH. Both peoples make up the majority in their respective entities, although Republika Srpska will be holding a referendum, rather than declaring it unilaterally so therefore Republika Srpska's independence will be democratic. Republika Srpska has every right to seek independence especially considering the Bosnian Muslims idea of reform is changing the constitution of BiH again, to ensure the abolishing of Republika Srpska as an entity of BiH.
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K-USA,
First, the outside actors were greatly involved with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, beginning with the cutting off of the loans, to the actual leg work on prodding Croatia and Slovenia to act towards secession.
It seems like you have this very weak skill in conveying any constructive dialogue across, yet rather you jab at objects you have little or no knowledge of.
As for Milosevic, he was beloved or hated by me. As for my church, how dare you blame them - you know nothing!
In ending, let me be clear and concise, once again - those that helped forment the break-up will also bear witness to the breakup of BiH; while their other stillborn child in Pristina will also suffer trials and tribulations before being split in half....take that to the bank.
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In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
My friend, what about 1244?
pre 14 godina
Bosnia really is beyond a joke. It's easily the most undemocratic country in Europe. WHo are the Americans to judge the likes of Russia and Belarus when they keep together a state like this. I don't know which is worse, is it trying to impose an extended mandate for foreign judges on Republika Srpska without consulting them, it the Muslims electing the Croat President, the constitutional changes which nobody except the Muslims want or just generally the west trying to do the worst for Serbs wherever they are. The list goes on.
Its as if NATO wants another Balkan War.
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The most laughable aspect of this matter certainly lies in the fact that a man like Tadic, due to his own previous statements and in respect of Serbia's own path towards EU, will never dare to recognise a possible independence declaration of that gathering of land pieces without territorial continuity....
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Obviously this is an attempt by the ohr-Inzko to cover-up his own breaking of the dayton constitution with his mandate decision being imposed in bih. The referendum presently being organized in republika srpska is precisely against this very decision. Inzko is going to the unsc on this very issue to say srpska is breaking international law by calling a referendum amongst the people on his dictatorial powers. Inzko is being backed up by the us ambassador English. Inzko broke international law and english is threatening to back him up. The eu and us are both breaking the law and lying about it. The republika srpska referendum being organized is constitutionally legal. Even the bosnian croat Covic agrees. Again this is obviously a propaganda ploy by the ohr to tar republika srpska again like in 1992. Any referendum for independence is not even presently being organized. So who the hell is telling the truth and who is covering something up.
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'Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
(Ron, 7 January 2010 18:44) '
A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
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I fully agree with the commentator who stated that Dodik is simply using the empty threat of a referendum as a "stay in power" and "stay out of jail" card. If he really intended to have a referendum he would have had it by now after all what is he waiting for? Is he waiting for Karadzic to be convicted of genocide? Is he waiting for more Bosnian refugees to return to their homes? Bosnia-Herzegovina with all its beautiful diversity has been around for a thousand years and Dodik is not going to change that fact. I believe that he has gotten the sense that his power in the country is to be cut dramatically down to size in any constitutional reform process that the US and EU are initiating and that is why he is launching these desperate and futile attempts to threaten the OHR and the Bosnian people. Milosevic used nationalism to stay in power and that is exactly what Dodik is doing. The Bosnian Serbs would be naive to believe that this man can bring them anything but pain and suffering if his irrational and dangerous policies continue. He is becoming like the boy who cried wolf too many times. People have figured out his tactics and he is in need of new tricks to dupe the Bosnian Serbs into voting for him and allowing him to enrich himself and his cronies off their tax money. Very soon the Bosnian people and the international community will decide that they've had enough of him, will proclaim him the main reason for instability in BiH and the Balkans. After that they will apply the appropriate sanctions on him and his political party. After this happens the Bosnian Serbs will turn on him and force him out of office. He will then be arrested for corruption, denying proven war crimes, and stoking ethnic/religious hatred. Does this sound familiar? Have we not seen this play before? Dodik should read Milosevic's biography and decide wether he wants to follow his path.
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Kind of funny how the same people who throw up international law in defense of Bosnia argue it doesn't, or shouldn't, exist in defense of Kosovo.
One State Policy for All, or One State Police for None.
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This is just more sabre rattling. This will never happen, as Dodik is an easily bought man, and knows how to play the game extremely well. The Serb nationalists that support him fail to realize that Dodik is not a nationalist. He has always ran RS like a CEO, and not like a politician.
Let's for arguments sake say that he tries. Violating the Dayton Agreement the way Dodik is proposing will not even have the backing of Serbia or Russia. Serbia is a signatory of it and would never hamper their chances of joining the EU. Not sure how many of you have been to Bosnia, but there is absolutely no way that a functioning sate can exist based on the current borders. The borders run through neighborhoods and were never designed to be defended sovereign borders. Dodik's power is derived from the current arrangement. He will never do anything impulsive, but will instead just threaten. He is being investigated by various courts for various illegal activities, and this has always been one of his many "Get out of Jail Cards."
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Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
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>>Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.>>
that is exactly correct, and thank you for stating -- the obvious. from my perspective, i don't see it so much in terms or constituent ethnic groups, and more in terms of the civil and human rights of all people, of every person. no matter what. otherwise the democracy is faulty or non-existent. otherwise you slip towards fascism, again.
even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
pre 14 godina
We need to wait and see how the ICJ rules. We have to respect the rule of law, even if others do not.
Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo even though my family is from Krajina and Bosnia.
Kosovo is just that important to our culture.
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it Will be independent all legal by the parliment and the people the vote starts now .
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"What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity."
(Micheal Breathnach, 7 January 2010 14:39)
Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
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Republika Srpska is well on it's way to achieve full independence in the future. The Dayton Agreement segregated Bosnia and they wonder why there are such small minorities in places that are named "Muslim Croat Federation" and "Republika Srpska". You cannot create two entities based on ethnicity and expect there to be some sort of united, patriotic feeling of all the peoples. The Dayton legitimized Republika Srpska and thought that by throwing out the sacred EU carrot that 5 years of ethnic hatred, bloodshed and overbearing pride would just be forgotten for a chance at the "European dream".
When Republika Srpska declares independence, pro-Serbian sentiment in Montenegro will once again rise and within 15 years after Republika Srpska's independence, a new Serbian union will be formed and the Serb's will be stronger than ever, mark my words.
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Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
(Dragan, Toronto, 7 January 2010 13:02)
Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
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it does not violate the Dayton agreement they stayed with it for many years and now they want independence and it will happen by the government in the republic and it is the peoples choice and it is over 92% Serbs so it will be done, and why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
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And the world stands still!
What is the rule of law in whole of the Balkans?!
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'Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 13:15)' (sic)
Attn: Sinisa
What a load of rubish!
Bosnia in its present 'state' just simply cannot progress and it surely is not the Serbs' fault.
What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity.
Isn't it really sick that 'the west' tried so desperately to dismantle the various ethnic groups in Yugoslavia and then they do the opposite in Bosnia. Berlin and naive Washington just won't let up until they have destroyed everything that is Serbian.
MB,Ireland
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Bosnia, still an American colony
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Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
pre 14 godina
Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
pre 14 godina
'SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.'
The Dayton agreement was wrong and still is wrong.
The OHR also knows that the Dayton agreement was concocted with sinister ulterior motives and it actually flies in the face of Human Rights.
Shame on the OHR for denigrating the fundamental human right of the people of Republik Srpska to vote on their own future wellbeing.
It's no wonder that my country's former President, Mary Robinson, didn't last long as UNHCHR. Wasn't it American arrogance ('amerrogance') that got rid of her?
MB,Ireland
pre 14 godina
SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.
And Kosovo UDI violated res 1244. So why would this one matter then?
pre 14 godina
Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
pre 14 godina
SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.
And Kosovo UDI violated res 1244. So why would this one matter then?
pre 14 godina
'Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 13:15)' (sic)
Attn: Sinisa
What a load of rubish!
Bosnia in its present 'state' just simply cannot progress and it surely is not the Serbs' fault.
What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity.
Isn't it really sick that 'the west' tried so desperately to dismantle the various ethnic groups in Yugoslavia and then they do the opposite in Bosnia. Berlin and naive Washington just won't let up until they have destroyed everything that is Serbian.
MB,Ireland
pre 14 godina
'SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.'
The Dayton agreement was wrong and still is wrong.
The OHR also knows that the Dayton agreement was concocted with sinister ulterior motives and it actually flies in the face of Human Rights.
Shame on the OHR for denigrating the fundamental human right of the people of Republik Srpska to vote on their own future wellbeing.
It's no wonder that my country's former President, Mary Robinson, didn't last long as UNHCHR. Wasn't it American arrogance ('amerrogance') that got rid of her?
MB,Ireland
pre 14 godina
Kind of funny how the same people who throw up international law in defense of Bosnia argue it doesn't, or shouldn't, exist in defense of Kosovo.
One State Policy for All, or One State Police for None.
pre 14 godina
Bosnia, still an American colony
pre 14 godina
Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
pre 14 godina
Republika Srpska is well on it's way to achieve full independence in the future. The Dayton Agreement segregated Bosnia and they wonder why there are such small minorities in places that are named "Muslim Croat Federation" and "Republika Srpska". You cannot create two entities based on ethnicity and expect there to be some sort of united, patriotic feeling of all the peoples. The Dayton legitimized Republika Srpska and thought that by throwing out the sacred EU carrot that 5 years of ethnic hatred, bloodshed and overbearing pride would just be forgotten for a chance at the "European dream".
When Republika Srpska declares independence, pro-Serbian sentiment in Montenegro will once again rise and within 15 years after Republika Srpska's independence, a new Serbian union will be formed and the Serb's will be stronger than ever, mark my words.
pre 14 godina
it does not violate the Dayton agreement they stayed with it for many years and now they want independence and it will happen by the government in the republic and it is the peoples choice and it is over 92% Serbs so it will be done, and why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
pre 14 godina
We need to wait and see how the ICJ rules. We have to respect the rule of law, even if others do not.
Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo even though my family is from Krajina and Bosnia.
Kosovo is just that important to our culture.
pre 14 godina
Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 15:29)
Yeah boyo, those 1981 riots were a blast :)
pre 14 godina
And the world stands still!
What is the rule of law in whole of the Balkans?!
pre 14 godina
it Will be independent all legal by the parliment and the people the vote starts now .
pre 14 godina
Obviously this is an attempt by the ohr-Inzko to cover-up his own breaking of the dayton constitution with his mandate decision being imposed in bih. The referendum presently being organized in republika srpska is precisely against this very decision. Inzko is going to the unsc on this very issue to say srpska is breaking international law by calling a referendum amongst the people on his dictatorial powers. Inzko is being backed up by the us ambassador English. Inzko broke international law and english is threatening to back him up. The eu and us are both breaking the law and lying about it. The republika srpska referendum being organized is constitutionally legal. Even the bosnian croat Covic agrees. Again this is obviously a propaganda ploy by the ohr to tar republika srpska again like in 1992. Any referendum for independence is not even presently being organized. So who the hell is telling the truth and who is covering something up.
pre 14 godina
This is just more sabre rattling. This will never happen, as Dodik is an easily bought man, and knows how to play the game extremely well. The Serb nationalists that support him fail to realize that Dodik is not a nationalist. He has always ran RS like a CEO, and not like a politician.
Let's for arguments sake say that he tries. Violating the Dayton Agreement the way Dodik is proposing will not even have the backing of Serbia or Russia. Serbia is a signatory of it and would never hamper their chances of joining the EU. Not sure how many of you have been to Bosnia, but there is absolutely no way that a functioning sate can exist based on the current borders. The borders run through neighborhoods and were never designed to be defended sovereign borders. Dodik's power is derived from the current arrangement. He will never do anything impulsive, but will instead just threaten. He is being investigated by various courts for various illegal activities, and this has always been one of his many "Get out of Jail Cards."
pre 14 godina
A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
Honest to God, the Albanian hypernationalists are making fools of themselves. Rushing to Sarajevo's defence bleating on about BiH right to territorial integrity & sovereingty while denying that right to Belgrade with their own UDI.
Hypocrites.
pre 14 godina
even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
(roberto, 7 January 2010 17:53)
Good old Roberto at it agian with the fake moral outrage. When Serbs are on the receiving end our self appointed 'moral guide' is conspicious by his absense. Ah spare us the bleeding heart liberal nonsense will you mate.
In Serbia in case you hadnt noticed there resides many ethnic minorities. With the excEption of 2 million Albanians in the AP Kosmet, there are 300,000+ Hungarians as well as 200,000+ Slovaks, Czechs, Jews, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Albanians, Roma etc. not to mention 250,000 Muslims in Sandzak. I think they are doing ok. I take it you have never been to Serbia to come up with that gem.
Speaking of demagogues, I can think of Reagan, Clinton, Blair, Olmert, Sharon, Bush and all the other meat packing glitterati like Galtieri and Pinochet but obviously they dont surface on your moral compass for whatever reason. I suspect thats down to your racist biased against Serbs & Roma.
Now if any of your bleeding heart liberals try to 'scrap' Dodik or RS, then its a sure bet that you will be in your worlds "playing with fire". It wont be just any old fire mate, it will be Balkan fire, extra blue flame too.
pre 14 godina
Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
(Dragan, Toronto, 7 January 2010 13:02)
Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
pre 14 godina
Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
pre 14 godina
Im really getting sick of this internationals telling Serbs from RS that they cant be independent, the 90% of RS are Serbs. They deserve freedom just like Kosovars and they dont wont anything to do with boshnjaks or croats, do the referendum let people decide and lets close this chapter for ones.
Also Ive been on this web site many times for a very long time reading comments from proserb and proalbo and it makes me really mad that kosovars would even care whats going on in Bosnia.
WE KOSOVARS SHOULD NOT GO ON THIS SITE AND POST NEGATIVE ABOUT THE SERBS FROM RS IF THEY WANT INDEPENDENCE IM WITH U HOPEFULLY AM NOT THE ONLY ONE(ALBANIAN) FIRST HERE HELLO EVERYONE.
pre 14 godina
I fully agree with the commentator who stated that Dodik is simply using the empty threat of a referendum as a "stay in power" and "stay out of jail" card. If he really intended to have a referendum he would have had it by now after all what is he waiting for? Is he waiting for Karadzic to be convicted of genocide? Is he waiting for more Bosnian refugees to return to their homes? Bosnia-Herzegovina with all its beautiful diversity has been around for a thousand years and Dodik is not going to change that fact. I believe that he has gotten the sense that his power in the country is to be cut dramatically down to size in any constitutional reform process that the US and EU are initiating and that is why he is launching these desperate and futile attempts to threaten the OHR and the Bosnian people. Milosevic used nationalism to stay in power and that is exactly what Dodik is doing. The Bosnian Serbs would be naive to believe that this man can bring them anything but pain and suffering if his irrational and dangerous policies continue. He is becoming like the boy who cried wolf too many times. People have figured out his tactics and he is in need of new tricks to dupe the Bosnian Serbs into voting for him and allowing him to enrich himself and his cronies off their tax money. Very soon the Bosnian people and the international community will decide that they've had enough of him, will proclaim him the main reason for instability in BiH and the Balkans. After that they will apply the appropriate sanctions on him and his political party. After this happens the Bosnian Serbs will turn on him and force him out of office. He will then be arrested for corruption, denying proven war crimes, and stoking ethnic/religious hatred. Does this sound familiar? Have we not seen this play before? Dodik should read Milosevic's biography and decide wether he wants to follow his path.
pre 14 godina
Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 16:46)
I agree. Its a pity you choose to be selective regarding your moral indignation about the dispaced 500,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma, Gorani & Bosniaks refugees inside Serbia after being ethnically cleansed from Krajina, BiH and Kosmet respectively.
pre 14 godina
"A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation"
This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
The West can't have it both ways -- if they want Bosnia to remain whole, they must support a whole Serbia (with Kosovo).
pre 14 godina
To Niall
1981 "riots" were not directed to dissolving Yugo,but to make it stronger and more just. Your partial memory must have omitted the fact that in the same protests chants of Tito, unity and equality were the motto.
In addition, when you mentioned the "meat packing glitterati" you forgot to add Slobo and Putin.
You calling on someone's "fake moral outrage" is as Ben Laden calling another terrorist.
To Bes, RS signed an agreement to stay within BiH Federation. Obviously, you are as informed as our self-proclaimed demi-god Niall O'Doherty.
pre 14 godina
'Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
(Ron, 7 January 2010 18:44) '
A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
pre 14 godina
The most laughable aspect of this matter certainly lies in the fact that a man like Tadic, due to his own previous statements and in respect of Serbia's own path towards EU, will never dare to recognise a possible independence declaration of that gathering of land pieces without territorial continuity....
pre 14 godina
Bosnia can not be expected to pay the price for Serbia's loss of Kosovo. There is higher percentage of Serbs in Montenegro than in Bosnia, divide Montenegro if you feel injustice in Kosovo warrants injustice somewhere else, leave Bosnia alone.
pre 14 godina
K-USA,
First, the outside actors were greatly involved with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, beginning with the cutting off of the loans, to the actual leg work on prodding Croatia and Slovenia to act towards secession.
It seems like you have this very weak skill in conveying any constructive dialogue across, yet rather you jab at objects you have little or no knowledge of.
As for Milosevic, he was beloved or hated by me. As for my church, how dare you blame them - you know nothing!
In ending, let me be clear and concise, once again - those that helped forment the break-up will also bear witness to the breakup of BiH; while their other stillborn child in Pristina will also suffer trials and tribulations before being split in half....take that to the bank.
pre 14 godina
The Kosovo Albanians were "allowed" (I used this term loosely) their independence from Serbia, why can't Republika Srpska from BiH. Both peoples make up the majority in their respective entities, although Republika Srpska will be holding a referendum, rather than declaring it unilaterally so therefore Republika Srpska's independence will be democratic. Republika Srpska has every right to seek independence especially considering the Bosnian Muslims idea of reform is changing the constitution of BiH again, to ensure the abolishing of Republika Srpska as an entity of BiH.
pre 14 godina
Bosnia really is beyond a joke. It's easily the most undemocratic country in Europe. WHo are the Americans to judge the likes of Russia and Belarus when they keep together a state like this. I don't know which is worse, is it trying to impose an extended mandate for foreign judges on Republika Srpska without consulting them, it the Muslims electing the Croat President, the constitutional changes which nobody except the Muslims want or just generally the west trying to do the worst for Serbs wherever they are. The list goes on.
Its as if NATO wants another Balkan War.
pre 14 godina
If RS gains their independence, then it would just bring a bad image to the Serbian people Internationally, but Domestically I think you would be quite happy another thing is, you people cant blame Kosovo and use it as an example when talking about RS because what happened to Kosovo was not only Illegal but also unusual. Sure, there is many mistakes but Kosovo never violated a International treaty. If Milorad Dodik was to succeed from Bosnia then he would be breaking the Dayton Agreement. Sure many Serbians would be against my comment but I believe it would be in the best interest of the Serbian people both Economically and Physically to leave their country as it is. Knowing many Bosnians and Muslims, they wouldn't like their country to be torn apart, which means their would be a war and Serbia couldn't afford a war right now because they are on a path to EU membership and their future looks good. However, if there was another war then Russia, Serbia would help their people in Bosnia but I think the Muslims have more freinds than anyone.
Peace.
pre 14 godina
"What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity."
(Micheal Breathnach, 7 January 2010 14:39)
Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
pre 14 godina
>>Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.>>
that is exactly correct, and thank you for stating -- the obvious. from my perspective, i don't see it so much in terms or constituent ethnic groups, and more in terms of the civil and human rights of all people, of every person. no matter what. otherwise the democracy is faulty or non-existent. otherwise you slip towards fascism, again.
even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
pre 14 godina
In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
My friend, what about 1244?
pre 14 godina
Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo...
Krajna is integral part of Croatia and will stay such, no matter how many Serbs return. Kosovo “return” poses a great danger to Serbia. Why on Earth would you want 2 million Albanian “compatriots”? If they vote in Serbian elections, the country would become ungovernable.
Srpska is a different story. It has a clear Serbian majority and if it persists in its efforts, sooner or later it may find a way of getting reintegrated with Serbia in one form or another. But it could happen only in co-operation with Croatia, and the international community. To achieve it the Serbs must offer a solution for the Muslims. Nobody wants two or three Muslim Gaza Strips in Europe. May be a Serbo-Croat reconciliation, which will immediately render BiH a Christian majority country is the first step.
pre 14 godina
why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
(gajo, 7 January 2010 14:56)
If this is not the ultimate hypocrisy I don't know what is.
pre 14 godina
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
(Niall O'Doherty, 8 January 2010 10:39)
I'm no expert, I've just read what the experts said at the ICJ public hearings, where Resolution 1244 was analyzed to a fare-thee-well ("the utmost degree") - nothing in it precluded independence for Kosovo or required Serbia's consent to the final agreement. Serbia recognized this on at least 3 separate occasions - when it refused to sign the Rambouillet accords, when it attempted to have the draft language changed, and when it asked SC members to reject the resolution. In all cases Serbia's representatives did this because realized the document would lead to Serbia's loss of Kosovo.
The Helsinki Agreement is an agreement between states and doesn't affect domestic constitutional arrangements, such as declarations of independence. Helsinki also calls for its provisions to all be taken into account whenever it is invoked, and these include the right to self-determination.
pre 14 godina
Note to Dodik: if you could have you would have. That's simply the facts on the ground. He has talked about these referendums for years now, right around election time one might add, but has never gone further then talking. Why? Obviously because he knows that he can't get away with it. If he breaches Dayton then his entity goes down the drain and he will become the leader of something that doesn't legaly exist, i.e. an imagined leader if you will. Dodik's is a clear case of "the emperor has no clothes". He cried wolf ten times by know and we have yet to see one, I'm starting ot doubt that the wolf even exists. Here's an important difference however, this time Dodik has not made his call for a referendum conditional, i.e. he has not used it in order to get a specific political concession but has rather stated that he will call on a referendum no matter what. This is a crucial mistake on his part since he can not leverage the referendum against anything anymore, he has laid all his cards on the table and the other players are seeing that his cards are weak. He has finally given away the mystique that had made such an interesting character. He basically stated that "I will do what I want and you can't stop me" which is a very naive political gamble which will cost him his political career. Milosevic tried going with his head through the wall but eventually realized that the wall is a formidable oponent, let's see how Dodik relives that experience.
pre 14 godina
'This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
(JC, 8 January 2010 16:50) '
Funny, this was the one argument that nobody - not Serbia, not Russia, not Argentina - made at the public hearings or in the written statements on Kosovo's declaration of independence: that the air campaign had been illegal. Very likely because no one wanted to start a discussion of the emerging "right to protect" or the legality of "humanitarian interventions" under international law. The NATO air campaign was indirectly and retrospectively accepted by the UNSC as legal by Resolution 1244 when it required "substantial NATO participation" in the peacekeeping force in Kosovo.
pre 14 godina
'Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52) '
Another of the violations making a declaration of independence illegal is a foreign intervention or the use of armed force. Why do you think no one has recognized Abkhazia or South Ossetia? (Ok, ok - Venezuela and Nicaragua took the opportunity to stick out their tongues at the U.S. and suck up to Russia).
As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
If you are interested in international law, go to the experts, don't rely on my interpretation of what they say.
The oral pleadings are much shorter than the written statements, and you can follow how the two sides respond to each others' claims and counterclaims over the two weeks. If nothing else, it'll give you an idea of how complicated international law can be.
pre 14 godina
Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
pre 14 godina
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52)
Sure any of those you mention can split. Or at least declare that they've split. There is nothing on the international level that prevents and intent of splitting. However whether or not you have split is a different matter that depends on.
1. Reality on the ground.
2. International recognition or at least understanding that you've really split.
Once those places have accomplished the two points above then for all intents and purposes they've split.
Same with RS. As far as I see they have number 1 down while they don't have international backing. So I guess they're still in.
pre 14 godina
(Sandro from Tuzla, 8 January 2010 13:53)
Yes, recognition of Kosovo did violated international laws, but it’s now a stagnant region where nothing is happening. Here is some very important news for you Bosniaks; the Dayton Agreement has an “exit clause” – meaning that if after a decade RS can hold a referendum to leave Bosnia. Why do you think your politicians never published the full text of the Agreement nor what they signed – ask Haris S.
Listen to this logic – Albanians in Kosovo can break away from Serbia, but Serbs in Bosnia cannot. Are you for real????
War is the only threat left to Bosniaks but I tell you this, anyone that lifts a finger in Bosnia is finished forever. This is not 1999, but 2010, and the geopolitical situation has changed dramatically.
According to your logic the US will withdraw its forces from killing Moslems in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere to protect Moslems in Bosnia????? I hope you guys never find out just how few so called friends you have in 2010.
pre 14 godina
As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
(Amer, 8 January 2010 21:21)
What happened to 'the law applies to all'?
There should not be a difference between rich, strong, big nations and poor, weak, small nations.
That's why I oppose Kosovo independence. I do not like special deals based on power politics.
If you want an indepedent Kosovo try to change the rules (1244, international law). But do not cheat.
I hate cheaters!!
The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
By the way: anyone here thinks that Abkhazia will ever return to Georgia?
pre 14 godina
The main phrases to pick out from 1244 are 'meaningful self-determination', 'substantial autonomy' and 'maintaining the territorial integrity of the FR Yugosalavia'. Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, as most countries on Serbia's side at the ICJ argued, meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
As for Bosnia, the double standards of allowing 15% of Serbia independence whilst forcing 40% of Bosnia to remain part of a country they don't want to live in wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for these ridiculous constitutional changes that are being proposed. IS Inzko really surprised the Serbs aren't willing to give up everything they fought for just for EU membership when they are looking over the border and seeing that their own people have had Visa restrictions abolished whilst they are kept for Bosnian Serbs purely because of the selfishness of the Muslims and the West.
pre 14 godina
"The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
(Ron, 9 January 2010 02:45)"
Under international law, as we've discussed already, Abkhazia is a different case.
So far, Tibet hasn't - as far as anyone has heard - declared independence. If it does, and if the Tibetans are able to establish an "effective government" (that is, if the Chinese don't wipe them out using military force), they probably would have a right under international law to be recognized as an independent country. Are you volunteering to go and help fight off 1-point-something billion Chinese to defend their independence? Neither is NATO. Nor the Russians.
pre 14 godina
'Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, ... meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
(Sam, 9 January 2010 14:32) '
There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.
Now, you may say that simply refusing to accept an offer from the other side is not fair, but during the negotiations, Serbia put into place a new constitution. No Albanians had any input into this constitution, and the Albanians of Kosovo were not allowed to vote in the referendum on it. And while this constitution proclaimed in its preamble that Kosovo was an autonomous province, its operative paragraphs stipulated that every right was to be determined by Parliament - that is, Kosovo's rights would be at the pleasure of the government in Belgrade, meaning that it would have no effective autonomy.
The new constitution also required the negotiators to defend Serbia's control over Kosovo - made it a "constitutional duty" - thereby binding the hands of the Serbian negotiators as much as Kosovo's negotiators were bound by their people's demands for independence.
If you don't trust Ahtisaari, what about the Russian team in the Troika? They also found that there was no chance of a compromise, that talks had broken down irretrievably, and nobody has yet said that they were biased against Serbia.
pre 14 godina
Where is Russia to help the Serbs out of yet another humiliation. This is a test of true Slavic friendship. The Russians are nowhere to be found, just concerned with their own selfish interests!
pre 14 godina
Dose of reality for Dodik and co. The only document in which the RS entity exists are the Dayton Pace Agreements. Without Dayton the two entities simply do not exist from a legal point of view. The time has come for Dodik to remove himself from the stage or to be removed by force. We've had enough of his hateful rhetoric and if its allowed to continue unchallenged then a breakout of violence will become inevitable. A Peace Agreement only guarantees peace as long as all parties respect the agreement. If Dodik does not respect Dayton then Dayton doesn't exist and neither does his entity. We're watching Dodik the conductor driving his train right off the cliff. An event like this has not happened since Milosevic drove his own train off the cliff in 1998.
pre 14 godina
Power is the only thing that matters.
If you can do it - do it!
It would violate Dayton Agreement?
Take us to ICJ for oppinion?
pre 14 godina
If Kosovo independency is an "exception" it points to admitted fact that the action is illegal. Otherwise, why should its supporters call it as an exception? From what?
pre 14 godina
If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?
pre 14 godina
'There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.'
Any agreement also had to be acceptable to Serbia as well Amer, hence political settlement.
I believe it was one of Russia's arguments at the ICK that in 1999 when the situation of Kosovar Albanians was at its worst, nobody dared to mention independence as an option, so if the violations of Albanian rights weren't enough to justify independence then, why are they now?
If talks had broken down then surely if any solution should have been imposed, it should have been the one that did comply the the instruction of 1244, Serbia's proposal.
Of course another change to the Serbian constitution would be required and it would have to be ratified by the Serbian parliament. If the Belgrade parliament refused to do this, then and only then should independence have been considered.
pre 14 godina
'If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?'
The Croats won't do anything Tim, they got less out of Dayton than the Serbs. Even Mesic, the most anti-Serb around, said himself that if Republika Srpska secedes the Croats will have to follow suit.
pre 14 godina
Don't blame Dodik for this FairPlay, long before he was proposing this referendum the EU were trying to create a more centralised constitution which neither the Serbs or Croats want with the clear long term aim of getting rid of Republika Srpska. Inzko gambled and underestimated Dodik's will to resist, now he's paying the price.
pre 14 godina
Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
(Dragan, Toronto, 7 January 2010 13:02)
Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
pre 14 godina
Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
pre 14 godina
>>Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.>>
that is exactly correct, and thank you for stating -- the obvious. from my perspective, i don't see it so much in terms or constituent ethnic groups, and more in terms of the civil and human rights of all people, of every person. no matter what. otherwise the democracy is faulty or non-existent. otherwise you slip towards fascism, again.
even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
pre 14 godina
"What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity."
(Micheal Breathnach, 7 January 2010 14:39)
Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
pre 14 godina
Republika Srpska is well on it's way to achieve full independence in the future. The Dayton Agreement segregated Bosnia and they wonder why there are such small minorities in places that are named "Muslim Croat Federation" and "Republika Srpska". You cannot create two entities based on ethnicity and expect there to be some sort of united, patriotic feeling of all the peoples. The Dayton legitimized Republika Srpska and thought that by throwing out the sacred EU carrot that 5 years of ethnic hatred, bloodshed and overbearing pride would just be forgotten for a chance at the "European dream".
When Republika Srpska declares independence, pro-Serbian sentiment in Montenegro will once again rise and within 15 years after Republika Srpska's independence, a new Serbian union will be formed and the Serb's will be stronger than ever, mark my words.
pre 14 godina
This is just more sabre rattling. This will never happen, as Dodik is an easily bought man, and knows how to play the game extremely well. The Serb nationalists that support him fail to realize that Dodik is not a nationalist. He has always ran RS like a CEO, and not like a politician.
Let's for arguments sake say that he tries. Violating the Dayton Agreement the way Dodik is proposing will not even have the backing of Serbia or Russia. Serbia is a signatory of it and would never hamper their chances of joining the EU. Not sure how many of you have been to Bosnia, but there is absolutely no way that a functioning sate can exist based on the current borders. The borders run through neighborhoods and were never designed to be defended sovereign borders. Dodik's power is derived from the current arrangement. He will never do anything impulsive, but will instead just threaten. He is being investigated by various courts for various illegal activities, and this has always been one of his many "Get out of Jail Cards."
pre 14 godina
Those from the outside that helped forment the disintegration of Yugoslavia will also bear witness to the disintegration of BiH. Its not a matter of "if" but "when."
pre 14 godina
'SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.'
The Dayton agreement was wrong and still is wrong.
The OHR also knows that the Dayton agreement was concocted with sinister ulterior motives and it actually flies in the face of Human Rights.
Shame on the OHR for denigrating the fundamental human right of the people of Republik Srpska to vote on their own future wellbeing.
It's no wonder that my country's former President, Mary Robinson, didn't last long as UNHCHR. Wasn't it American arrogance ('amerrogance') that got rid of her?
MB,Ireland
pre 14 godina
I fully agree with the commentator who stated that Dodik is simply using the empty threat of a referendum as a "stay in power" and "stay out of jail" card. If he really intended to have a referendum he would have had it by now after all what is he waiting for? Is he waiting for Karadzic to be convicted of genocide? Is he waiting for more Bosnian refugees to return to their homes? Bosnia-Herzegovina with all its beautiful diversity has been around for a thousand years and Dodik is not going to change that fact. I believe that he has gotten the sense that his power in the country is to be cut dramatically down to size in any constitutional reform process that the US and EU are initiating and that is why he is launching these desperate and futile attempts to threaten the OHR and the Bosnian people. Milosevic used nationalism to stay in power and that is exactly what Dodik is doing. The Bosnian Serbs would be naive to believe that this man can bring them anything but pain and suffering if his irrational and dangerous policies continue. He is becoming like the boy who cried wolf too many times. People have figured out his tactics and he is in need of new tricks to dupe the Bosnian Serbs into voting for him and allowing him to enrich himself and his cronies off their tax money. Very soon the Bosnian people and the international community will decide that they've had enough of him, will proclaim him the main reason for instability in BiH and the Balkans. After that they will apply the appropriate sanctions on him and his political party. After this happens the Bosnian Serbs will turn on him and force him out of office. He will then be arrested for corruption, denying proven war crimes, and stoking ethnic/religious hatred. Does this sound familiar? Have we not seen this play before? Dodik should read Milosevic's biography and decide wether he wants to follow his path.
pre 14 godina
We need to wait and see how the ICJ rules. We have to respect the rule of law, even if others do not.
Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo even though my family is from Krajina and Bosnia.
Kosovo is just that important to our culture.
pre 14 godina
'Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
(Ron, 7 January 2010 18:44) '
A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
pre 14 godina
The most laughable aspect of this matter certainly lies in the fact that a man like Tadic, due to his own previous statements and in respect of Serbia's own path towards EU, will never dare to recognise a possible independence declaration of that gathering of land pieces without territorial continuity....
pre 14 godina
Bosnia can not be expected to pay the price for Serbia's loss of Kosovo. There is higher percentage of Serbs in Montenegro than in Bosnia, divide Montenegro if you feel injustice in Kosovo warrants injustice somewhere else, leave Bosnia alone.
pre 14 godina
'Obstructing Bosnia's progress in every way possible can not be beneficial to Serbs, it will only serve to further alienate Serbs from civilized world, which, as OHR puts it, means "setting the RS on the dangerous path of legal uncertainty".
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 13:15)' (sic)
Attn: Sinisa
What a load of rubish!
Bosnia in its present 'state' just simply cannot progress and it surely is not the Serbs' fault.
What 'the west' is doing here is outright forced integration which I regard as a crime against humanity.
Isn't it really sick that 'the west' tried so desperately to dismantle the various ethnic groups in Yugoslavia and then they do the opposite in Bosnia. Berlin and naive Washington just won't let up until they have destroyed everything that is Serbian.
MB,Ireland
pre 14 godina
it does not violate the Dayton agreement they stayed with it for many years and now they want independence and it will happen by the government in the republic and it is the peoples choice and it is over 92% Serbs so it will be done, and why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
pre 14 godina
If RS gains their independence, then it would just bring a bad image to the Serbian people Internationally, but Domestically I think you would be quite happy another thing is, you people cant blame Kosovo and use it as an example when talking about RS because what happened to Kosovo was not only Illegal but also unusual. Sure, there is many mistakes but Kosovo never violated a International treaty. If Milorad Dodik was to succeed from Bosnia then he would be breaking the Dayton Agreement. Sure many Serbians would be against my comment but I believe it would be in the best interest of the Serbian people both Economically and Physically to leave their country as it is. Knowing many Bosnians and Muslims, they wouldn't like their country to be torn apart, which means their would be a war and Serbia couldn't afford a war right now because they are on a path to EU membership and their future looks good. However, if there was another war then Russia, Serbia would help their people in Bosnia but I think the Muslims have more freinds than anyone.
Peace.
pre 14 godina
Bosnia, still an American colony
pre 14 godina
SARAJEVO -- The Office of the High Representative (OHR) in Bosnia says a referendum on independence of the Republic of Srpska (RS) would violate the Dayton agreement.
And Kosovo UDI violated res 1244. So why would this one matter then?
pre 14 godina
To Niall
1981 "riots" were not directed to dissolving Yugo,but to make it stronger and more just. Your partial memory must have omitted the fact that in the same protests chants of Tito, unity and equality were the motto.
In addition, when you mentioned the "meat packing glitterati" you forgot to add Slobo and Putin.
You calling on someone's "fake moral outrage" is as Ben Laden calling another terrorist.
To Bes, RS signed an agreement to stay within BiH Federation. Obviously, you are as informed as our self-proclaimed demi-god Niall O'Doherty.
pre 14 godina
Dear West, dear UN, dear EU,
Kosovo is declaring independence illegally! Why not speak out against that!
pre 14 godina
Kind of funny how the same people who throw up international law in defense of Bosnia argue it doesn't, or shouldn't, exist in defense of Kosovo.
One State Policy for All, or One State Police for None.
pre 14 godina
it Will be independent all legal by the parliment and the people the vote starts now .
pre 14 godina
"A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation"
This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
The West can't have it both ways -- if they want Bosnia to remain whole, they must support a whole Serbia (with Kosovo).
pre 14 godina
Obviously this is an attempt by the ohr-Inzko to cover-up his own breaking of the dayton constitution with his mandate decision being imposed in bih. The referendum presently being organized in republika srpska is precisely against this very decision. Inzko is going to the unsc on this very issue to say srpska is breaking international law by calling a referendum amongst the people on his dictatorial powers. Inzko is being backed up by the us ambassador English. Inzko broke international law and english is threatening to back him up. The eu and us are both breaking the law and lying about it. The republika srpska referendum being organized is constitutionally legal. Even the bosnian croat Covic agrees. Again this is obviously a propaganda ploy by the ohr to tar republika srpska again like in 1992. Any referendum for independence is not even presently being organized. So who the hell is telling the truth and who is covering something up.
pre 14 godina
Bosnia really is beyond a joke. It's easily the most undemocratic country in Europe. WHo are the Americans to judge the likes of Russia and Belarus when they keep together a state like this. I don't know which is worse, is it trying to impose an extended mandate for foreign judges on Republika Srpska without consulting them, it the Muslims electing the Croat President, the constitutional changes which nobody except the Muslims want or just generally the west trying to do the worst for Serbs wherever they are. The list goes on.
Its as if NATO wants another Balkan War.
pre 14 godina
In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
My friend, what about 1244?
pre 14 godina
K-USA,
First, the outside actors were greatly involved with the disintegration of Yugoslavia, beginning with the cutting off of the loans, to the actual leg work on prodding Croatia and Slovenia to act towards secession.
It seems like you have this very weak skill in conveying any constructive dialogue across, yet rather you jab at objects you have little or no knowledge of.
As for Milosevic, he was beloved or hated by me. As for my church, how dare you blame them - you know nothing!
In ending, let me be clear and concise, once again - those that helped forment the break-up will also bear witness to the breakup of BiH; while their other stillborn child in Pristina will also suffer trials and tribulations before being split in half....take that to the bank.
pre 14 godina
Don't blame the west for disintegration of old Yugo,but your own beloved Milosevic and orthodox church.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 15:29)
Yeah boyo, those 1981 riots were a blast :)
pre 14 godina
A declaration of independence is only illegal under international law if it is made in connection with an act that is itself a violation. Examples include breaking an international treaty, which would be the case if RS declared independence contrary to the Dayton agreements. In the case of Kosovo, where there were no such illegal acts, "international law is silent," as they kept saying at the ICJ: so there's nothing to speak out against.
(Amer, 7 January 2010 22:17)
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
Honest to God, the Albanian hypernationalists are making fools of themselves. Rushing to Sarajevo's defence bleating on about BiH right to territorial integrity & sovereingty while denying that right to Belgrade with their own UDI.
Hypocrites.
pre 14 godina
Advocates of ethnic apartheid should not be given slack. There ought to be mechanisms that protect each constituent ethnic group, but yielding to forces of segregation and tearing Bosnia apart just to appease xenophobes, is just plain wrong.
(Sinisa, 7 January 2010 16:46)
I agree. Its a pity you choose to be selective regarding your moral indignation about the dispaced 500,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma, Gorani & Bosniaks refugees inside Serbia after being ethnically cleansed from Krajina, BiH and Kosmet respectively.
pre 14 godina
even inside serbia, there has to be a guarantee to protect minority rights, not just on paper or rhetoric. this non-stop push towards greater "ethnically-pure" serbia (or greater anything) is vile and disgusting and bad 19th century policy and needs to end, now!
as for the OHR and the west in general, i am really sick of this gaming process. real live human beings, still traumatized from the hell of that war, are not to be pawns for your play. scrap dodik immediately and institute criminal proceedings. and any other demagogues who try to destroy the country and return to the bad old days.
i am telling you -- in the balkans you are playing with fire.
thank you.
roberto
back in us of a
(roberto, 7 January 2010 17:53)
Good old Roberto at it agian with the fake moral outrage. When Serbs are on the receiving end our self appointed 'moral guide' is conspicious by his absense. Ah spare us the bleeding heart liberal nonsense will you mate.
In Serbia in case you hadnt noticed there resides many ethnic minorities. With the excEption of 2 million Albanians in the AP Kosmet, there are 300,000+ Hungarians as well as 200,000+ Slovaks, Czechs, Jews, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Albanians, Roma etc. not to mention 250,000 Muslims in Sandzak. I think they are doing ok. I take it you have never been to Serbia to come up with that gem.
Speaking of demagogues, I can think of Reagan, Clinton, Blair, Olmert, Sharon, Bush and all the other meat packing glitterati like Galtieri and Pinochet but obviously they dont surface on your moral compass for whatever reason. I suspect thats down to your racist biased against Serbs & Roma.
Now if any of your bleeding heart liberals try to 'scrap' Dodik or RS, then its a sure bet that you will be in your worlds "playing with fire". It wont be just any old fire mate, it will be Balkan fire, extra blue flame too.
pre 14 godina
Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
pre 14 godina
(Sandro from Tuzla, 8 January 2010 13:53)
Yes, recognition of Kosovo did violated international laws, but it’s now a stagnant region where nothing is happening. Here is some very important news for you Bosniaks; the Dayton Agreement has an “exit clause” – meaning that if after a decade RS can hold a referendum to leave Bosnia. Why do you think your politicians never published the full text of the Agreement nor what they signed – ask Haris S.
Listen to this logic – Albanians in Kosovo can break away from Serbia, but Serbs in Bosnia cannot. Are you for real????
War is the only threat left to Bosniaks but I tell you this, anyone that lifts a finger in Bosnia is finished forever. This is not 1999, but 2010, and the geopolitical situation has changed dramatically.
According to your logic the US will withdraw its forces from killing Moslems in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere to protect Moslems in Bosnia????? I hope you guys never find out just how few so called friends you have in 2010.
pre 14 godina
And the world stands still!
What is the rule of law in whole of the Balkans?!
pre 14 godina
Im really getting sick of this internationals telling Serbs from RS that they cant be independent, the 90% of RS are Serbs. They deserve freedom just like Kosovars and they dont wont anything to do with boshnjaks or croats, do the referendum let people decide and lets close this chapter for ones.
Also Ive been on this web site many times for a very long time reading comments from proserb and proalbo and it makes me really mad that kosovars would even care whats going on in Bosnia.
WE KOSOVARS SHOULD NOT GO ON THIS SITE AND POST NEGATIVE ABOUT THE SERBS FROM RS IF THEY WANT INDEPENDENCE IM WITH U HOPEFULLY AM NOT THE ONLY ONE(ALBANIAN) FIRST HERE HELLO EVERYONE.
pre 14 godina
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52)
Sure any of those you mention can split. Or at least declare that they've split. There is nothing on the international level that prevents and intent of splitting. However whether or not you have split is a different matter that depends on.
1. Reality on the ground.
2. International recognition or at least understanding that you've really split.
Once those places have accomplished the two points above then for all intents and purposes they've split.
Same with RS. As far as I see they have number 1 down while they don't have international backing. So I guess they're still in.
pre 14 godina
The Kosovo Albanians were "allowed" (I used this term loosely) their independence from Serbia, why can't Republika Srpska from BiH. Both peoples make up the majority in their respective entities, although Republika Srpska will be holding a referendum, rather than declaring it unilaterally so therefore Republika Srpska's independence will be democratic. Republika Srpska has every right to seek independence especially considering the Bosnian Muslims idea of reform is changing the constitution of BiH again, to ensure the abolishing of Republika Srpska as an entity of BiH.
pre 14 godina
Either we keep Kosovo or we get Bosnia and Krajina (keep in mind all those refugees and their children still retain voting rights).
My preference is for Serbia to keep Kosovo...
Krajna is integral part of Croatia and will stay such, no matter how many Serbs return. Kosovo “return” poses a great danger to Serbia. Why on Earth would you want 2 million Albanian “compatriots”? If they vote in Serbian elections, the country would become ungovernable.
Srpska is a different story. It has a clear Serbian majority and if it persists in its efforts, sooner or later it may find a way of getting reintegrated with Serbia in one form or another. But it could happen only in co-operation with Croatia, and the international community. To achieve it the Serbs must offer a solution for the Muslims. Nobody wants two or three Muslim Gaza Strips in Europe. May be a Serbo-Croat reconciliation, which will immediately render BiH a Christian majority country is the first step.
pre 14 godina
'This could very well be true and goes beyond UN 1244 -- since the 1999 NATO war was illegal, then the declaration of independence should be illegal.
(JC, 8 January 2010 16:50) '
Funny, this was the one argument that nobody - not Serbia, not Russia, not Argentina - made at the public hearings or in the written statements on Kosovo's declaration of independence: that the air campaign had been illegal. Very likely because no one wanted to start a discussion of the emerging "right to protect" or the legality of "humanitarian interventions" under international law. The NATO air campaign was indirectly and retrospectively accepted by the UNSC as legal by Resolution 1244 when it required "substantial NATO participation" in the peacekeeping force in Kosovo.
pre 14 godina
Hey International Law 'expert', Kosmet's UDI was too a violation of international law, namely UN Resolution 1244 and Articles 3 & 4 of the Helsinki Agreement 1976 which itself is an international treaty co-signed by the US.
(Niall O'Doherty, 8 January 2010 10:39)
I'm no expert, I've just read what the experts said at the ICJ public hearings, where Resolution 1244 was analyzed to a fare-thee-well ("the utmost degree") - nothing in it precluded independence for Kosovo or required Serbia's consent to the final agreement. Serbia recognized this on at least 3 separate occasions - when it refused to sign the Rambouillet accords, when it attempted to have the draft language changed, and when it asked SC members to reject the resolution. In all cases Serbia's representatives did this because realized the document would lead to Serbia's loss of Kosovo.
The Helsinki Agreement is an agreement between states and doesn't affect domestic constitutional arrangements, such as declarations of independence. Helsinki also calls for its provisions to all be taken into account whenever it is invoked, and these include the right to self-determination.
pre 14 godina
As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
(Amer, 8 January 2010 21:21)
What happened to 'the law applies to all'?
There should not be a difference between rich, strong, big nations and poor, weak, small nations.
That's why I oppose Kosovo independence. I do not like special deals based on power politics.
If you want an indepedent Kosovo try to change the rules (1244, international law). But do not cheat.
I hate cheaters!!
The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
By the way: anyone here thinks that Abkhazia will ever return to Georgia?
pre 14 godina
why the double standard kosovo is serbia and america thinks its ok to separate because albanians are a majority so this will happen this year repubica srpska will be independent.and kosovo will be serbia as a province and krajina in the future will have full autonomy .
(gajo, 7 January 2010 14:56)
If this is not the ultimate hypocrisy I don't know what is.
pre 14 godina
The main phrases to pick out from 1244 are 'meaningful self-determination', 'substantial autonomy' and 'maintaining the territorial integrity of the FR Yugosalavia'. Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, as most countries on Serbia's side at the ICJ argued, meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
As for Bosnia, the double standards of allowing 15% of Serbia independence whilst forcing 40% of Bosnia to remain part of a country they don't want to live in wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for these ridiculous constitutional changes that are being proposed. IS Inzko really surprised the Serbs aren't willing to give up everything they fought for just for EU membership when they are looking over the border and seeing that their own people have had Visa restrictions abolished whilst they are kept for Bosnian Serbs purely because of the selfishness of the Muslims and the West.
pre 14 godina
Power is the only thing that matters.
If you can do it - do it!
It would violate Dayton Agreement?
Take us to ICJ for oppinion?
pre 14 godina
Dose of reality for Dodik and co. The only document in which the RS entity exists are the Dayton Pace Agreements. Without Dayton the two entities simply do not exist from a legal point of view. The time has come for Dodik to remove himself from the stage or to be removed by force. We've had enough of his hateful rhetoric and if its allowed to continue unchallenged then a breakout of violence will become inevitable. A Peace Agreement only guarantees peace as long as all parties respect the agreement. If Dodik does not respect Dayton then Dayton doesn't exist and neither does his entity. We're watching Dodik the conductor driving his train right off the cliff. An event like this has not happened since Milosevic drove his own train off the cliff in 1998.
pre 14 godina
'Amer,
So then I guess Abkhazia can split from Georgia? As this is also a dominestic affair?
Same for Taiwan and China?
(Ron, 8 January 2010 19:52) '
Another of the violations making a declaration of independence illegal is a foreign intervention or the use of armed force. Why do you think no one has recognized Abkhazia or South Ossetia? (Ok, ok - Venezuela and Nicaragua took the opportunity to stick out their tongues at the U.S. and suck up to Russia).
As for the case of China and Taiwan, this is simply a case of power politics. If Serbia were the size of China, Kosovo would still be Serbia.
If you are interested in international law, go to the experts, don't rely on my interpretation of what they say.
The oral pleadings are much shorter than the written statements, and you can follow how the two sides respond to each others' claims and counterclaims over the two weeks. If nothing else, it'll give you an idea of how complicated international law can be.
pre 14 godina
Note to Dodik: if you could have you would have. That's simply the facts on the ground. He has talked about these referendums for years now, right around election time one might add, but has never gone further then talking. Why? Obviously because he knows that he can't get away with it. If he breaches Dayton then his entity goes down the drain and he will become the leader of something that doesn't legaly exist, i.e. an imagined leader if you will. Dodik's is a clear case of "the emperor has no clothes". He cried wolf ten times by know and we have yet to see one, I'm starting ot doubt that the wolf even exists. Here's an important difference however, this time Dodik has not made his call for a referendum conditional, i.e. he has not used it in order to get a specific political concession but has rather stated that he will call on a referendum no matter what. This is a crucial mistake on his part since he can not leverage the referendum against anything anymore, he has laid all his cards on the table and the other players are seeing that his cards are weak. He has finally given away the mystique that had made such an interesting character. He basically stated that "I will do what I want and you can't stop me" which is a very naive political gamble which will cost him his political career. Milosevic tried going with his head through the wall but eventually realized that the wall is a formidable oponent, let's see how Dodik relives that experience.
pre 14 godina
"The rules appply to all. So yes, if Kosovo can go, so can Abkhazia. And Tibet for sure!
It is time the West stops with this awful double standards?
(Ron, 9 January 2010 02:45)"
Under international law, as we've discussed already, Abkhazia is a different case.
So far, Tibet hasn't - as far as anyone has heard - declared independence. If it does, and if the Tibetans are able to establish an "effective government" (that is, if the Chinese don't wipe them out using military force), they probably would have a right under international law to be recognized as an independent country. Are you volunteering to go and help fight off 1-point-something billion Chinese to defend their independence? Neither is NATO. Nor the Russians.
pre 14 godina
'Self determination can mean internal self-determination, rather than external self-determination, ... meaning the proposals made by Serbia, which offered Kosovo more autonomy than anywhere else in the world and would have basically made it part of Serbia in name only satisfied all three of these principals of 1244. Therefore if anything, there would have been more of a legal basis to impose Serbia's plan on Kosovo than impose independence on Serbia. Sorry, but any other explanation than Ahtisaari was biassed simply doesn't add up.
(Sam, 9 January 2010 14:32) '
There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.
Now, you may say that simply refusing to accept an offer from the other side is not fair, but during the negotiations, Serbia put into place a new constitution. No Albanians had any input into this constitution, and the Albanians of Kosovo were not allowed to vote in the referendum on it. And while this constitution proclaimed in its preamble that Kosovo was an autonomous province, its operative paragraphs stipulated that every right was to be determined by Parliament - that is, Kosovo's rights would be at the pleasure of the government in Belgrade, meaning that it would have no effective autonomy.
The new constitution also required the negotiators to defend Serbia's control over Kosovo - made it a "constitutional duty" - thereby binding the hands of the Serbian negotiators as much as Kosovo's negotiators were bound by their people's demands for independence.
If you don't trust Ahtisaari, what about the Russian team in the Troika? They also found that there was no chance of a compromise, that talks had broken down irretrievably, and nobody has yet said that they were biased against Serbia.
pre 14 godina
Where is Russia to help the Serbs out of yet another humiliation. This is a test of true Slavic friendship. The Russians are nowhere to be found, just concerned with their own selfish interests!
pre 14 godina
If Kosovo independency is an "exception" it points to admitted fact that the action is illegal. Otherwise, why should its supporters call it as an exception? From what?
pre 14 godina
If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?
pre 14 godina
'There are a couple of problems here: one is that under Res. 1244, any solution had to be acceptable to Kosovo. Any form of Serbian sovereignty simply wasn't acceptable, in Kosovo's view.'
Any agreement also had to be acceptable to Serbia as well Amer, hence political settlement.
I believe it was one of Russia's arguments at the ICK that in 1999 when the situation of Kosovar Albanians was at its worst, nobody dared to mention independence as an option, so if the violations of Albanian rights weren't enough to justify independence then, why are they now?
If talks had broken down then surely if any solution should have been imposed, it should have been the one that did comply the the instruction of 1244, Serbia's proposal.
Of course another change to the Serbian constitution would be required and it would have to be ratified by the Serbian parliament. If the Belgrade parliament refused to do this, then and only then should independence have been considered.
pre 14 godina
'If the Serbs vote for independence, what can be done about it? Are the Croats and Muslims going to invade RS? Are they going to turn on each other because they need the Serbs to give them stability?'
The Croats won't do anything Tim, they got less out of Dayton than the Serbs. Even Mesic, the most anti-Serb around, said himself that if Republika Srpska secedes the Croats will have to follow suit.
pre 14 godina
Don't blame Dodik for this FairPlay, long before he was proposing this referendum the EU were trying to create a more centralised constitution which neither the Serbs or Croats want with the clear long term aim of getting rid of Republika Srpska. Inzko gambled and underestimated Dodik's will to resist, now he's paying the price.
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