Yvery unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan,
Arberi you are saying it wasnt Albanians embarrasing themselves harrasing people on Christmas, it was Bia agents with umbrellas? Or was it Vba? They all look alike to me too.
>His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
(Olf,
Well lassie.. if you say so. I dont watch Tv in Kosovo, cause I'm not in Kosovo, not even close, nowhere near Kosovo.
Anyway next time you'll have chance to show youre the boss and ban him. Or the time after that. One time. Just be patient :)
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Gee bleeding heart liberal with your fake moral outrage, what about those 250,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma etc. who were ethnically cleansed from Kosmet by the KLA along with hundreds of churches torched and destroyed in 2004. Wasn't that the result of Albanian 'ueber-nationalism'? Then maybe they too should get out and be done with it and you with them.
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
Congratulations on the most factually incorrect post yet. Any Serb living in Kosovo is a citizen of SERBIA, Einstein. They have passports for SERBIA, receive pensions from SERBIA, and have access to education, health, and civil benefits of SERBIA. You can wish how you want but this is the reality.
Oh, and for the record since you are not Albanian, the rest of the civilized world calls this place KosovO.
I don't get it! Tadic came to Kosovo to celebrate Christmas with his people and came with a message of peace and what did the albanians do? Block the very road he came through. This is in no way a peacefull demonstration. It is a provocation and a message to the Serbs of what to expect when KFOR leaves! The Serbs can't even spend Christmas in peace.
We have to be rational if we are to solve anything. Tadic did change his language but differences are far greater than similarities among Serbs and Albanians. Kosovo is not going back to Serbia as everyone knows it; yet, I believe we have to reconcile and learn to live together. To many wars, to many hatred ideologies costed us lives, economically, and everything else. I am Albanian who does not hate Serbia. I want the best for all, but politics aside and we share many things than with any other nation. I want the best for both countries, I want the best for future generations, for children who can grow up thinking we are just humans rather than being raised with "us v. them" mentality. Time to see us prospect and let the tolerance prevail. Happy Christmas to all Orthodox believers, Serbian and Albanian and I wish one day we live in a borderless EU where imaginary lines are killed and humanity prevails.
'When do the Orthodox Albanians celebrate Christmas then?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:57)'
December 25: I checked some American Albanian Orthodox web-sites - their Christmas sounds a lot like other Christian Christmases here: somebody donated poinsettias to one of the churches, for example, without which it is apparently illegal or immoral to celebrate Christmas in America.
Here's one for you: http://www.neophobic.ro/art_img/adeline/28112008111931/poinsettia1.jpg - Merry Christmas!
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
=======================
Really?
So now you are going to tell the Serbs who they are and who they are not.
Why then do Albanians wave Albanian flags and speak Albanian and call themselves Albanian when they are meant to be "Kosovars"?
Why don't you give them the same speech?
Amer, thanks for clearing the matter of Orthodox Albanians and the date the celebrate Christmas for me.
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
The mighty Albanian army in Kosovo – what a sight it will be. God! You guys make me laugh please keep it up I’m sure Jerry Seinfeld is still looking for good writers.
You actually think the US would sell arms to Albanians? The closest the Albanians will ever get to “arms” is a toy store.
Very good! I like your sense of humor.
Although the kosovo government was not in the position to prevent tadic's visit, the common people could express their dissatisfaction in a civilized way. Nothing wrong with it, as we all see this happening here in the west. However, I see one positive thing in Tadic speech, that he tried to avoid nationalistic language. That's a step in the right direction. As for comments that kosovo is a serbian province, it is not very sure, as every time the serbian politicians have to enter the Kosovo territory they ask for permission.
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
Have you forgotten that?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:46)
"Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox"
there is no such thing my dear Peggy. yes there is Albanians with beleives of orthodox religion, but all of them are in Albania and have nothing to do with serbian orthodox religion.
My question to you is what happened to Osejane, since you were the one saying watch and see when Tadic goes there and no one can stop him.
I must tell you that this visit was the most pleasent visit, that I have ever seen from e Serbian President.
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
well.....in light of the rather humorous post of yours (I did chuckle), we can always presume a ruckus is abound when drinks + holidays + Balkan people intersect :P
Hopefully they were advertising something good? :)
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
(Zoti, 7 January 2010 15:22)
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Who died and make you the arbitrator?
Who says you are in any position to decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in Kosovo?
Tadic went to church. Great. What do you see wrong with that? Tell the US president he cannot use going to church as a photo op because that can be seen as political otherwise he can get the hell out.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 18:15)
=====================
You obvioysly don't know that you can say happy new year a week after 31st December. I am still having it said to me and I am saying it to people I have not seen since December last year.
Which society do you live in?
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
Visit RS in Bosnia, FULL of new Mosques.
Merry XMAS All!!!!!!!
(Matthew, 7 January 2010 17:58)
================
Exactly.
Did we see any protests around mosqus during Ramadan or any other day? NO.
If they want the world to see them as tolerant, epecially the Christian world then they cannot obstruct anyone's wish to pray at Christmas.
Really doing well at showing their true colours. Saying things like we are not religious we are secular, we are moderate just makes a mockery of them when they do this.
"And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus."
(Mike, 7 January 2010 17:52)
Mike, did you read this comment:
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Now, tell me what is radical in promoting Serb drinks? I don't know. Kosovo is a democracy, and people can protest if they want to, (while serb-drink makers can use the protest to promote their drinks in Kosovo. Or maybe it was albanians who promote the drinks they buy from serb drink-makers to sell them in Kosovo). Don't you think you're blowing this out of proportion by calling them radical? Happy Christmas..
Anyone should have a right to visit religious, holy sites -- that shouldn't be open to question. but this unholy marriage of religion and politics is something else again.
that goes for any religion. lots of high sounding ideas, then they're used to promote hatred, fear, and conflict.
in the us, in the middle east, everywhere.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
I think Tadic should be congratulated for his words of peace and conciliation. It was a respectful and honourable speech.
Everyone can argue on here but at the end of the day Serbia's leader did not inflame anything by his words but also did not compromise in his beliefs and position on the status of Kosovo.
He certainly is the new media darling of the Balkans and an absolute asset to a modern Serbia.
“I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land? WHY?” (Olf, 7 January 2010 14:30)
Olf, its because Kosovo is Holy and Sacred to us, so yeah, and religious holidays are a huge part of being Serbian. If I were to convert to Catholicism I’d be considered a Croat (exactly what the Ustashe planned for 1/3 of the Serbs in Krajina btw).
You can not separate being Serbian and with Orthodox and from Kosovo as the very cradle and foundation of our identity.
That is why Olf, and unless you understand that very simple fact, you will never understand the Balkans.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
So for a trip that was theoretically "approved" by the Albanians of Kosovo, Tadic, who was no doubt under close scrutiny for possibly saying something provocative, ends up calling for peace and reconciliation - I know, right? Someone call the ICTY. And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus. Nice job. Great way to not only dispel the idea that Pristina approved his visit, but that Kosovo is a multiethnic paradise. And a fantastic way, if I might add, of turning something that wasn't political into something very political indeed. Very "European" of them.
“According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that.” (John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
“These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? (Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)”
These comments shows how much they understand civil rights.
No you can not do such things in civilized countries. Think what those anti-abortion crazies would do (or the KKK) if given the chance.
You’re side is just looking for any excuse to deny religious and social freedoms to my people.
How are you guys any better than what Milosevic was doing?
All you’re doing is strengthening the partition argument and now we’ll get all our cultural sites as well.
Tadic, BRAVO for sticking to the religious and cultural arguments, that’s our best ammo in this fight.
“International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence (Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)”
Demi, Serbs did in exact proportion to their population. 1 Serb for every 9 Albanians. We make up roughly 25% of the ethnically cleansed (99% of the STILL ethnically cleansed) and double what our rate should be for the missing and presumed dead.
So, Albanians have not treated the Serbs any better (“Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better. casual_visitor”). Only difference is, we got rid of Milosevic, while you hail your criminals as heroes.
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
(Ment, 7 January 2010 16:42)
This is probably correct and we have to think, why since 1500-s there is not a single functioning country over there. By a mere(?) coincidence: like with Balkans, this time is the time shadowed by Ottoman occupation. And before that they had Selcuk and Mongol invasions.
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Did anybody read this comment?
The protest lasted 30 minutes. Nothing extraordinary or bad, there were people advertising Serbian drinks, since the Serbian president was there, and usually presidents are followed by cameras. A perfect example of cooperation between serb drink-makers and albanian citizens of kosovo.
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
This is a question best asked to an Al-Jazeera forum perhaps?
To the other posters...
Let's not give religious overtones to everything... the protest was held against Serbia's president (no surprise there), not against Christmas.
Regarding this long discussion about different calendar usage seems for me good thing to measure the time... if we use the muslim calendar they around 600 years back... only two weeks among orthodox church and catolic is not a big issue. BTW very soon balcan countries will be reconciled well and be part of big europian family, only after that lot of you that are posting here lot of "radical comments" will change and will change a lot.
Peace to ALL!!!
"Tadic said that the purpose of his visit was to call for peace in the Balkans"
This is the first sign that Serbia is going to say sorry for the attrocities they commited in the balkans. I think Tadic should not be allowed into Kosovo again after he commented "Serbia entering the EU with Kosovo together"
Tadic knows that this will never happen, he and the politics in belgrade are using Kosovo and the Kosovo Serbs as a tool in the negotiating table to join the EU. But assured that neither Kosovo or Serbia is ever entering the EU without some sort of bialateral agreement between the two countries. NO CHANCE FOR KOSOVO GOING BACK TO SERBIA NO CHANCE
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
They dont have it in Utah. Only mormon church. Lucky you, if you did not come to Kosmet you would never find out.
Is very sad that ordinary people are prevented from attending church on what is for them their Christmas Day... just as is very sad that some people below would describe this act as a 'peaceful protest'.
A happy Christmas to those of you who celebrate it as such.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
People are free to protest and ask Tadic where are their missing relatives. The protest was peacefull just like everywhere. Kosovo passed another test/provocation, well done Young Kosovars.
I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land?
WHY?, people of Serbia know the truth anyhow and are fed-up with stupid(pie in the sky)propaganda. His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
serbs are celebrating only one birthday, in january. most of the rest of the world celebrates it 2 weeks earlier because a pope declared that half of a month didn't happen a few centuries ago.
all this would not be necessary if christmas were still celebrated in the way it was originally celebrated - as a day of winter solstice. that day can be determined easily and doesn't move because of the imperfection of our calendar.
jesus was not born in either december or january, btw. he was probably born in march, but the day of winter solstice was a very popular holiday in rome in 3rd and 4th centuries as birthday of a son god called mitras, so christians adopted it as theirs and started to pretend it was actually the b-day of jesus.
so happy birthday to mitras and a nice day to all the atheists out there :)
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
What an insensitive comment that highlights the ignorance of Nick.
Hey Einstein, in case you didn't know, the Latin Christmas is 25th December while the Orthodox is 7th January. Serbian Orthodox Church uses the Julian Calendar.
Serbia celebrates 2 Christmas feasts. One on the 25th for its Catholic and Protestant brethern and the Serbian Orthodox one today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Serbia
Its shows a lesson on how Serbia accommodates its Catholic and Luthern citizens that Albanian hypernationalists like you ought to learn.
Stupid me, sorry, I mean, "solar year". The "lunar" holiday is way to soon, too - was reading my e-mails and apologies for stupidity.
In my situation I have also to watch for Lunar New Year celebrations because during that time all communication is over for a week and we need plan ahead. Sorry for mix-up, this is about SOLAR calendar, not LUNAR.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
If this was meant as some sort of a mock on Serbs, then you are the one who is looking silly here.
These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? Guess not in a Serb mind.
(Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)
As long as you do not block the road - fine.
All my sympathy with the workers, but same is true for Serbs: blocking the railway around Lapovo and making international travelers to Bulgaria / Greece / FYROM swear and arrive with 12 hours delay, miss the connection, etc etc is not just. You have your opinion and / or problems - fine to protest. But do not let others who aren't at fault to suffer from your opinion or from your problems.
In any case: if the people stay on the side of the road and protest or hand out some propaganda leaflets to the drivers - fine. If they block the road, it's not. Regardless, are they Albanians, Roma, Serbs, Russians, whoever.
I am a free man, if I decide to go to Decani by road or to Thessaloniki by rail for peaceful reason - the protesters can't restrict my freedom to do so. If they do - I will be angry.
'I still don't get how a person has two birthdays, one in dec and one in Jan'..
- Nick KS.
I've NEVER read a more ignorant sentence than this ! Christ DOESN'T have two birthdays ! In both cases it is the date of 25th of December, but by two different calendars. The Orthodox Church uses the original Julian calendar since it doesn't care for the changes that a certain Pope made to it to produce the universal one that we use today. That someone might not already know this goes beyond all understanding.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
--
Christmas is celebrated on the 25th of December. Today is the 25th of December on the Julian Calendar, which is what Orthodox Churches follow. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
LOL, Nick, this is easy.
The celebration is always on the same day. Now - what that "same day" does mean? As you know, the event happened over 2000 years ago and the lunar year is not precisely 365 or 366 days, there are few seconds extra. The medieval scientists discovered the difference and after original "Julian" (after Gaius Julius Caesar) calendar an other calendar was proposed with distribution of leap-years not every fourth year (like in Julian), but with adjustment every century. This is being called "Gregorian" calendar.
The difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar (i.e. these little "extra" seconds) did "accumulate" in about two weeks within 2000 years.
As you may or maybe do not know: there was so-called "great schism" between all eastern (including Egyptian coptic church) and the church of Bishop of Rome ("Pope", "catholic" church) around the first millennia. The "schism" had political/economic/social reasons long gone (and that schism has zero sense today, btw.) - but as a mere "side-effect" the "eastern" churches decided to stay with original Roman calendar, while the "western" ( = Roman Catholic) church adopted the new calendar.
In the mean time "eastern" churches increasingly turned to the Gregorian calendar, some (like Egyptian Copt, Assyrian, Georgian, Serbian, Russian) are still using the "old" calendar for religious holidays while using the "new" calendar for everyday job.
Except the monastic Republic of Holy Mountain (Athos) in Greece: the monks there are using the "old" calendar even for everyday job, so if you would cross the border between Greece Proper and Athos, you have to set your calendar 13 days "behind"! I.e. today is December 25, 2009 on Athos.
Before really wondering about Athos being so "backwards": everyone (males only) is allowed to visit the monastic republic, be them Orthodox or Muslim or Catholic or Buddhists. But the "rest of us" can't visit Mekkah or Medina. But why "male only" on Athos? Well, monks would like to protect themself from getting some ideas not really "in-line" with monastic life. Fully understand... ;-)
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
(AdamSRB, 7 January 2010 11:14)
Yes AdamSRB, we definitely remember the “good old times” (jobs for Serbs, bullets for Albanians).
That is why we fought and died not to have them again.
Personally I would never let a leader of a hostile state in, no matter the “reason” for the visit is.
Nobody is fooled in Kosovo by the charm that Tadic tries to express.
Deep inside, he is no different from any other Serbian leader (Milosevic in disguise).
I guess that our leadership is trying to hard to please the Serb minority.
Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better.
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
(John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
I am always confused when reading Albanian comments as they are flawed beyond belief. The poster above is promoting and rationalising a protest against people attending church on the second holiest day of their calander, I wonder if he could explain why this is reasonable? And with doing so he can explain how this protest does not insult the orthodox Christian population of Albanians. The reference to shooting crowds of protestors is completely irrelevant and contributes nothing to the arguement as there are no cases of such actions in Serbia.
Tadic has a right to attend the holiest site of Serbian Orthodoxy on Christmas just as every other Serb and person on this earth has, however we have a population of peoples in our country today who believe that they can prevent this from happening because it undermines them? Im not sure there is another nation in the world with such a complex. If this isnt a sign to the international community what sort of people Kosovo Albanians are then I dont know what is.
With respect to what you can do about these protests my dear ironicily named "John" you can do the same as one would do with neo-nazi rallies; stop them. Preventing people from attending a peaceful church service is no different from insiting violence, it is a direct provocation.
"They should take a lesson from the Israelis and drive some bulldozers through there... then those hate mongers will move:) "
Does by any chance the name "Rachel Corrie" ring a bell?
If it does and if you have some empaty for none serbian s left, please leave the zionist entity and their etnical cleansing of non-jews in the middle east out of this. Serbs are NOT racial oriented murderers. We have not been out of Kosovo for 2000 years and we DO live peacefully together with many other peoples of different faiths in our own country. The only multi-cultural country in f.Yugoslavia.
Demi you make life so easy for me. The answer to all your questions is "the UN".
"He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina." True, EULEX is like the "middleman" between Serbia and Thaci but you seem to have forgotten that EULEX is under the rule of the UN. The UN and Serbia gave EULEX its powers and both can easily take them away.
"And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ?" There is no army in Kosovo. You might claim there is, but in reality there isn't. If you think the KSF is an army then put them head to head with Serbia's army and we'll see how many minutes (yep, that's all it'll be) before they surrender or are crushed. And the clue is in the title - KSF. There is no word "army" in KSF. you have no tanks, planes, heavy weapons, etc like any real army, and nobody but the albanians call the KSF an army. If you were a real country with a real army, your allies, the US and EU would have already sold tanks and aircraft, etc to you. In effect they implicitly recognise UNSCR 1244 by not militarising the Albanians, which is forbidden under this resolution, but they can arm, train and equip a police force for civilian purposes as that is allowed under UNSCR 1244. Even your allies recognise you are not a legitimate country even though they keep saying you are.
If you don't realise that then you'll never realise the reality that Kosovo is a Province of Serbia, currently a UN protectorate. It may stay like that indefinitely, but you'll never be independent and never be able to join Albania unless Serbia provides it's blessing - Your masters (US and EU)won't allow it. You're buried neck deep in mud with no escape!
It is possible that K-albanians protest without burning flats, but you all have to consider that those people one time they reached a condition of similar indipendence are running to every foreign embassy to have a visa and go away. I am Italian and I think it is a shame that my and other civilized country could recognize the indipendence of a region which is a part of a recognized country. Even if everyone like it or not, Serbia is a state, with a territory and a population which have been recognized as a nation from the international community... Kosovo is not.
I want that every Serbian brother and sister know that not all the Italians think that kosovo have to be an indipendent country, believe me.
Kosovo is Serbia, no more no less and all the pathetic protests of the k-albs cannot change this fact, even considering that kosovo has nothing to offer to the world viewed that it is producing nothing and its political class is completely corrupted.
Kosovars are only able to go abroad and live with the gains of crime activity.
All we know for sure is that Tadic entered Kosovo without trouble and the Albanian authorities couldn't do anything about it. In the end they pretend that they let Tadic in on religious grounds. The fact is that they didn't want to let him in but are powerless to stop him unless they want to lose their meal ticket and be forced to make an honest living, which is against their religion.
So what if 100 protesters blocked a road, children will be children, especially when their president/daddy is in town.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
Demi - so-called KSF can't enter North without local Serbs permission ;)
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99
(Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)
Demi - UN investigitators finds:
1999 - 2108 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
2000 - 608 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
in next years next few hundreds bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK e.g. bodies of 22 Serbs finds in Mališevo in 2005).
According to Herardo Patrandolfi, the head of the ICRC - over 2100 people of all ethnicities are still registered as missing since the end of the conflict in Kosovo(incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK)
Don't forget, that in this number is peoples killed during NATO bombardment (so - killed by NATO soldiers)
So - show me my friend where is Your 12 thousand peoples killed by Serbs????
And don't forget who started ethnic cleansings in Kosovo in 80's. New York Times 1987 - "In the last seven years, 20,000 of them (Serbs) have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north"
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
I don't see that as a possibility in this lifetime.
(pss, 7 January 2010 10:39)
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)´
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
====================
Clearly your "professional" army is no good so step aside and let someone else do the job of protecting the Serbs.
BTW, what do you intend to use the weapons for? Killing more Serbs?
What if we send in the albanian army to Serbia to watch out for foreign ambassies wich serbs burned down after the independence of Kosovo ?
-- Serbia is an actual country within the UN and its sovereignty is not contested. Very poor comparison.
"Clearly the serbian army and police diden't have the capacity to secure this buildings and the people working there."
-- Nonsense. This is too silly to respond to.
"In Kosovo people at least demostrate without burning foreign buildings and beating foregniers-
(Smulan, 7 January 2010 10:53)"
-- You seem to forget the KLA terrorist veterans who threw grenades at the government building in Pristina recently? Just because they were too inept to find good grenades does not diminish this terrorist attack.
What about March 2004? Peaceful protest? I think not.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010, 10:48)
If you honestly believe that KSF will be north of the Ibar, you have very serious delusional issues... KSF would be chewed up and sent packing back south in a heartbeat. KFOR knows this reality and that is why it will never happen.
As for buying arms from the US... you are not allowed to have real weapons, and even if you were, I doubt very seriously your pathetic "Security" force would be able to use them, that is, if they were even allowed to by KFOR...
I guess with 70% unemployment there is nothing else to do but block roads!
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
Would be a good opportunity for the KPS to show that they became a professional police force and are able to stop this illegal road blocking. Will this happen? Probably not...
I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
Happy Christmas
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Well I diden't see tadic asking UNMIK to visit Kosovo. He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina. My personal opinion is that he should not be let in because his destructice policy towards the independence of Kosovo. Mr.Thaci in difference from me had an different opinion and decided to allow Tadic to visit Kosovo. If the goverment in Prishtina woulden't allow him to visit serbs and Tadic him self would have cry'd ''there is no religous freedom in Kosovo''. But the time comes when there is no Eulex like there are'nt any unmik and then Tadic will have to ask Thaci if he wants to visit Kosovo.
And the ICJ like you say will not rule in favor of Serbia. When the ICj rules in our favor what will Serbia do then ? Then you cannot cry international law ? Which card will you play then ?
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99.
Only two question to you. If UNMIK is in charge in Kosovo then why no UN-police ? And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ? Not to mention a goverment wich also minority serbs participate in.
"The protesters managed to prevented people who wished to attend Christmas Eve and Christmas liturgies at the monastery from reaching their destination"
Real mature, guys. You preach about how you want good relations and a multi-ethnic society, then you prevent people from going to church.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
He is not welcomed because he's a enemy of our nation. I wonder how the goverment of Kosovo let him come when he fights against our freedom? He is a president of a country wich dosen't respect our independence and have no religous right to visit religous places. I hope this was the last time he was let in.
But in the end I guess it is the only way Tadic can enter Kosovo. By using the religous card. Poor president.
"The protesters managed to prevented people who wished to attend Christmas Eve and Christmas liturgies at the monastery from reaching their destination"
Real mature, guys. You preach about how you want good relations and a multi-ethnic society, then you prevent people from going to church.
I guess with 70% unemployment there is nothing else to do but block roads!
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
What if we send in the albanian army to Serbia to watch out for foreign ambassies wich serbs burned down after the independence of Kosovo ?
-- Serbia is an actual country within the UN and its sovereignty is not contested. Very poor comparison.
"Clearly the serbian army and police diden't have the capacity to secure this buildings and the people working there."
-- Nonsense. This is too silly to respond to.
"In Kosovo people at least demostrate without burning foreign buildings and beating foregniers-
(Smulan, 7 January 2010 10:53)"
-- You seem to forget the KLA terrorist veterans who threw grenades at the government building in Pristina recently? Just because they were too inept to find good grenades does not diminish this terrorist attack.
What about March 2004? Peaceful protest? I think not.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
What an insensitive comment that highlights the ignorance of Nick.
Hey Einstein, in case you didn't know, the Latin Christmas is 25th December while the Orthodox is 7th January. Serbian Orthodox Church uses the Julian Calendar.
Serbia celebrates 2 Christmas feasts. One on the 25th for its Catholic and Protestant brethern and the Serbian Orthodox one today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Serbia
Its shows a lesson on how Serbia accommodates its Catholic and Luthern citizens that Albanian hypernationalists like you ought to learn.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010, 10:48)
If you honestly believe that KSF will be north of the Ibar, you have very serious delusional issues... KSF would be chewed up and sent packing back south in a heartbeat. KFOR knows this reality and that is why it will never happen.
As for buying arms from the US... you are not allowed to have real weapons, and even if you were, I doubt very seriously your pathetic "Security" force would be able to use them, that is, if they were even allowed to by KFOR...
Would be a good opportunity for the KPS to show that they became a professional police force and are able to stop this illegal road blocking. Will this happen? Probably not...
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
====================
Clearly your "professional" army is no good so step aside and let someone else do the job of protecting the Serbs.
BTW, what do you intend to use the weapons for? Killing more Serbs?
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
If this was meant as some sort of a mock on Serbs, then you are the one who is looking silly here.
'I still don't get how a person has two birthdays, one in dec and one in Jan'..
- Nick KS.
I've NEVER read a more ignorant sentence than this ! Christ DOESN'T have two birthdays ! In both cases it is the date of 25th of December, but by two different calendars. The Orthodox Church uses the original Julian calendar since it doesn't care for the changes that a certain Pope made to it to produce the universal one that we use today. That someone might not already know this goes beyond all understanding.
Is very sad that ordinary people are prevented from attending church on what is for them their Christmas Day... just as is very sad that some people below would describe this act as a 'peaceful protest'.
A happy Christmas to those of you who celebrate it as such.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
serbs are celebrating only one birthday, in january. most of the rest of the world celebrates it 2 weeks earlier because a pope declared that half of a month didn't happen a few centuries ago.
all this would not be necessary if christmas were still celebrated in the way it was originally celebrated - as a day of winter solstice. that day can be determined easily and doesn't move because of the imperfection of our calendar.
jesus was not born in either december or january, btw. he was probably born in march, but the day of winter solstice was a very popular holiday in rome in 3rd and 4th centuries as birthday of a son god called mitras, so christians adopted it as theirs and started to pretend it was actually the b-day of jesus.
so happy birthday to mitras and a nice day to all the atheists out there :)
These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? Guess not in a Serb mind.
(Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)
As long as you do not block the road - fine.
All my sympathy with the workers, but same is true for Serbs: blocking the railway around Lapovo and making international travelers to Bulgaria / Greece / FYROM swear and arrive with 12 hours delay, miss the connection, etc etc is not just. You have your opinion and / or problems - fine to protest. But do not let others who aren't at fault to suffer from your opinion or from your problems.
In any case: if the people stay on the side of the road and protest or hand out some propaganda leaflets to the drivers - fine. If they block the road, it's not. Regardless, are they Albanians, Roma, Serbs, Russians, whoever.
I am a free man, if I decide to go to Decani by road or to Thessaloniki by rail for peaceful reason - the protesters can't restrict my freedom to do so. If they do - I will be angry.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
I don't see that as a possibility in this lifetime.
(pss, 7 January 2010 10:39)
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
--
Christmas is celebrated on the 25th of December. Today is the 25th of December on the Julian Calendar, which is what Orthodox Churches follow. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
They dont have it in Utah. Only mormon church. Lucky you, if you did not come to Kosmet you would never find out.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
LOL, Nick, this is easy.
The celebration is always on the same day. Now - what that "same day" does mean? As you know, the event happened over 2000 years ago and the lunar year is not precisely 365 or 366 days, there are few seconds extra. The medieval scientists discovered the difference and after original "Julian" (after Gaius Julius Caesar) calendar an other calendar was proposed with distribution of leap-years not every fourth year (like in Julian), but with adjustment every century. This is being called "Gregorian" calendar.
The difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar (i.e. these little "extra" seconds) did "accumulate" in about two weeks within 2000 years.
As you may or maybe do not know: there was so-called "great schism" between all eastern (including Egyptian coptic church) and the church of Bishop of Rome ("Pope", "catholic" church) around the first millennia. The "schism" had political/economic/social reasons long gone (and that schism has zero sense today, btw.) - but as a mere "side-effect" the "eastern" churches decided to stay with original Roman calendar, while the "western" ( = Roman Catholic) church adopted the new calendar.
In the mean time "eastern" churches increasingly turned to the Gregorian calendar, some (like Egyptian Copt, Assyrian, Georgian, Serbian, Russian) are still using the "old" calendar for religious holidays while using the "new" calendar for everyday job.
Except the monastic Republic of Holy Mountain (Athos) in Greece: the monks there are using the "old" calendar even for everyday job, so if you would cross the border between Greece Proper and Athos, you have to set your calendar 13 days "behind"! I.e. today is December 25, 2009 on Athos.
Before really wondering about Athos being so "backwards": everyone (males only) is allowed to visit the monastic republic, be them Orthodox or Muslim or Catholic or Buddhists. But the "rest of us" can't visit Mekkah or Medina. But why "male only" on Athos? Well, monks would like to protect themself from getting some ideas not really "in-line" with monastic life. Fully understand... ;-)
It is possible that K-albanians protest without burning flats, but you all have to consider that those people one time they reached a condition of similar indipendence are running to every foreign embassy to have a visa and go away. I am Italian and I think it is a shame that my and other civilized country could recognize the indipendence of a region which is a part of a recognized country. Even if everyone like it or not, Serbia is a state, with a territory and a population which have been recognized as a nation from the international community... Kosovo is not.
I want that every Serbian brother and sister know that not all the Italians think that kosovo have to be an indipendent country, believe me.
Kosovo is Serbia, no more no less and all the pathetic protests of the k-albs cannot change this fact, even considering that kosovo has nothing to offer to the world viewed that it is producing nothing and its political class is completely corrupted.
Kosovars are only able to go abroad and live with the gains of crime activity.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
Demi - so-called KSF can't enter North without local Serbs permission ;)
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99
(Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)
Demi - UN investigitators finds:
1999 - 2108 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
2000 - 608 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
in next years next few hundreds bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK e.g. bodies of 22 Serbs finds in Mališevo in 2005).
According to Herardo Patrandolfi, the head of the ICRC - over 2100 people of all ethnicities are still registered as missing since the end of the conflict in Kosovo(incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK)
Don't forget, that in this number is peoples killed during NATO bombardment (so - killed by NATO soldiers)
So - show me my friend where is Your 12 thousand peoples killed by Serbs????
And don't forget who started ethnic cleansings in Kosovo in 80's. New York Times 1987 - "In the last seven years, 20,000 of them (Serbs) have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north"
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
(John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
I am always confused when reading Albanian comments as they are flawed beyond belief. The poster above is promoting and rationalising a protest against people attending church on the second holiest day of their calander, I wonder if he could explain why this is reasonable? And with doing so he can explain how this protest does not insult the orthodox Christian population of Albanians. The reference to shooting crowds of protestors is completely irrelevant and contributes nothing to the arguement as there are no cases of such actions in Serbia.
Tadic has a right to attend the holiest site of Serbian Orthodoxy on Christmas just as every other Serb and person on this earth has, however we have a population of peoples in our country today who believe that they can prevent this from happening because it undermines them? Im not sure there is another nation in the world with such a complex. If this isnt a sign to the international community what sort of people Kosovo Albanians are then I dont know what is.
With respect to what you can do about these protests my dear ironicily named "John" you can do the same as one would do with neo-nazi rallies; stop them. Preventing people from attending a peaceful church service is no different from insiting violence, it is a direct provocation.
People are free to protest and ask Tadic where are their missing relatives. The protest was peacefull just like everywhere. Kosovo passed another test/provocation, well done Young Kosovars.
I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land?
WHY?, people of Serbia know the truth anyhow and are fed-up with stupid(pie in the sky)propaganda. His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
He is not welcomed because he's a enemy of our nation. I wonder how the goverment of Kosovo let him come when he fights against our freedom? He is a president of a country wich dosen't respect our independence and have no religous right to visit religous places. I hope this was the last time he was let in.
But in the end I guess it is the only way Tadic can enter Kosovo. By using the religous card. Poor president.
All we know for sure is that Tadic entered Kosovo without trouble and the Albanian authorities couldn't do anything about it. In the end they pretend that they let Tadic in on religious grounds. The fact is that they didn't want to let him in but are powerless to stop him unless they want to lose their meal ticket and be forced to make an honest living, which is against their religion.
So what if 100 protesters blocked a road, children will be children, especially when their president/daddy is in town.
I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
"They should take a lesson from the Israelis and drive some bulldozers through there... then those hate mongers will move:) "
Does by any chance the name "Rachel Corrie" ring a bell?
If it does and if you have some empaty for none serbian s left, please leave the zionist entity and their etnical cleansing of non-jews in the middle east out of this. Serbs are NOT racial oriented murderers. We have not been out of Kosovo for 2000 years and we DO live peacefully together with many other peoples of different faiths in our own country. The only multi-cultural country in f.Yugoslavia.
So for a trip that was theoretically "approved" by the Albanians of Kosovo, Tadic, who was no doubt under close scrutiny for possibly saying something provocative, ends up calling for peace and reconciliation - I know, right? Someone call the ICTY. And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus. Nice job. Great way to not only dispel the idea that Pristina approved his visit, but that Kosovo is a multiethnic paradise. And a fantastic way, if I might add, of turning something that wasn't political into something very political indeed. Very "European" of them.
Demi you make life so easy for me. The answer to all your questions is "the UN".
"He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina." True, EULEX is like the "middleman" between Serbia and Thaci but you seem to have forgotten that EULEX is under the rule of the UN. The UN and Serbia gave EULEX its powers and both can easily take them away.
"And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ?" There is no army in Kosovo. You might claim there is, but in reality there isn't. If you think the KSF is an army then put them head to head with Serbia's army and we'll see how many minutes (yep, that's all it'll be) before they surrender or are crushed. And the clue is in the title - KSF. There is no word "army" in KSF. you have no tanks, planes, heavy weapons, etc like any real army, and nobody but the albanians call the KSF an army. If you were a real country with a real army, your allies, the US and EU would have already sold tanks and aircraft, etc to you. In effect they implicitly recognise UNSCR 1244 by not militarising the Albanians, which is forbidden under this resolution, but they can arm, train and equip a police force for civilian purposes as that is allowed under UNSCR 1244. Even your allies recognise you are not a legitimate country even though they keep saying you are.
If you don't realise that then you'll never realise the reality that Kosovo is a Province of Serbia, currently a UN protectorate. It may stay like that indefinitely, but you'll never be independent and never be able to join Albania unless Serbia provides it's blessing - Your masters (US and EU)won't allow it. You're buried neck deep in mud with no escape!
"Tadic said that the purpose of his visit was to call for peace in the Balkans"
This is the first sign that Serbia is going to say sorry for the attrocities they commited in the balkans. I think Tadic should not be allowed into Kosovo again after he commented "Serbia entering the EU with Kosovo together"
Tadic knows that this will never happen, he and the politics in belgrade are using Kosovo and the Kosovo Serbs as a tool in the negotiating table to join the EU. But assured that neither Kosovo or Serbia is ever entering the EU without some sort of bialateral agreement between the two countries. NO CHANCE FOR KOSOVO GOING BACK TO SERBIA NO CHANCE
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Did anybody read this comment?
The protest lasted 30 minutes. Nothing extraordinary or bad, there were people advertising Serbian drinks, since the Serbian president was there, and usually presidents are followed by cameras. A perfect example of cooperation between serb drink-makers and albanian citizens of kosovo.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)´
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
This is a question best asked to an Al-Jazeera forum perhaps?
To the other posters...
Let's not give religious overtones to everything... the protest was held against Serbia's president (no surprise there), not against Christmas.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
Stupid me, sorry, I mean, "solar year". The "lunar" holiday is way to soon, too - was reading my e-mails and apologies for stupidity.
In my situation I have also to watch for Lunar New Year celebrations because during that time all communication is over for a week and we need plan ahead. Sorry for mix-up, this is about SOLAR calendar, not LUNAR.
Regarding this long discussion about different calendar usage seems for me good thing to measure the time... if we use the muslim calendar they around 600 years back... only two weeks among orthodox church and catolic is not a big issue. BTW very soon balcan countries will be reconciled well and be part of big europian family, only after that lot of you that are posting here lot of "radical comments" will change and will change a lot.
Peace to ALL!!!
“I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land? WHY?” (Olf, 7 January 2010 14:30)
Olf, its because Kosovo is Holy and Sacred to us, so yeah, and religious holidays are a huge part of being Serbian. If I were to convert to Catholicism I’d be considered a Croat (exactly what the Ustashe planned for 1/3 of the Serbs in Krajina btw).
You can not separate being Serbian and with Orthodox and from Kosovo as the very cradle and foundation of our identity.
That is why Olf, and unless you understand that very simple fact, you will never understand the Balkans.
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
Congratulations on the most factually incorrect post yet. Any Serb living in Kosovo is a citizen of SERBIA, Einstein. They have passports for SERBIA, receive pensions from SERBIA, and have access to education, health, and civil benefits of SERBIA. You can wish how you want but this is the reality.
Oh, and for the record since you are not Albanian, the rest of the civilized world calls this place KosovO.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Gee bleeding heart liberal with your fake moral outrage, what about those 250,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma etc. who were ethnically cleansed from Kosmet by the KLA along with hundreds of churches torched and destroyed in 2004. Wasn't that the result of Albanian 'ueber-nationalism'? Then maybe they too should get out and be done with it and you with them.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
I think Tadic should be congratulated for his words of peace and conciliation. It was a respectful and honourable speech.
Everyone can argue on here but at the end of the day Serbia's leader did not inflame anything by his words but also did not compromise in his beliefs and position on the status of Kosovo.
He certainly is the new media darling of the Balkans and an absolute asset to a modern Serbia.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Who died and make you the arbitrator?
Who says you are in any position to decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in Kosovo?
Tadic went to church. Great. What do you see wrong with that? Tell the US president he cannot use going to church as a photo op because that can be seen as political otherwise he can get the hell out.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 18:15)
=====================
You obvioysly don't know that you can say happy new year a week after 31st December. I am still having it said to me and I am saying it to people I have not seen since December last year.
Which society do you live in?
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
“According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that.” (John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
“These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? (Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)”
These comments shows how much they understand civil rights.
No you can not do such things in civilized countries. Think what those anti-abortion crazies would do (or the KKK) if given the chance.
You’re side is just looking for any excuse to deny religious and social freedoms to my people.
How are you guys any better than what Milosevic was doing?
All you’re doing is strengthening the partition argument and now we’ll get all our cultural sites as well.
Tadic, BRAVO for sticking to the religious and cultural arguments, that’s our best ammo in this fight.
“International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence (Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)”
Demi, Serbs did in exact proportion to their population. 1 Serb for every 9 Albanians. We make up roughly 25% of the ethnically cleansed (99% of the STILL ethnically cleansed) and double what our rate should be for the missing and presumed dead.
So, Albanians have not treated the Serbs any better (“Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better. casual_visitor”). Only difference is, we got rid of Milosevic, while you hail your criminals as heroes.
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
Anyone should have a right to visit religious, holy sites -- that shouldn't be open to question. but this unholy marriage of religion and politics is something else again.
that goes for any religion. lots of high sounding ideas, then they're used to promote hatred, fear, and conflict.
in the us, in the middle east, everywhere.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
(Ment, 7 January 2010 16:42)
This is probably correct and we have to think, why since 1500-s there is not a single functioning country over there. By a mere(?) coincidence: like with Balkans, this time is the time shadowed by Ottoman occupation. And before that they had Selcuk and Mongol invasions.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
(Zoti, 7 January 2010 15:22)
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
(AdamSRB, 7 January 2010 11:14)
Yes AdamSRB, we definitely remember the “good old times” (jobs for Serbs, bullets for Albanians).
That is why we fought and died not to have them again.
Personally I would never let a leader of a hostile state in, no matter the “reason” for the visit is.
Nobody is fooled in Kosovo by the charm that Tadic tries to express.
Deep inside, he is no different from any other Serbian leader (Milosevic in disguise).
I guess that our leadership is trying to hard to please the Serb minority.
Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better.
well.....in light of the rather humorous post of yours (I did chuckle), we can always presume a ruckus is abound when drinks + holidays + Balkan people intersect :P
Hopefully they were advertising something good? :)
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
Visit RS in Bosnia, FULL of new Mosques.
Merry XMAS All!!!!!!!
(Matthew, 7 January 2010 17:58)
================
Exactly.
Did we see any protests around mosqus during Ramadan or any other day? NO.
If they want the world to see them as tolerant, epecially the Christian world then they cannot obstruct anyone's wish to pray at Christmas.
Really doing well at showing their true colours. Saying things like we are not religious we are secular, we are moderate just makes a mockery of them when they do this.
I don't get it! Tadic came to Kosovo to celebrate Christmas with his people and came with a message of peace and what did the albanians do? Block the very road he came through. This is in no way a peacefull demonstration. It is a provocation and a message to the Serbs of what to expect when KFOR leaves! The Serbs can't even spend Christmas in peace.
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
Happy Christmas
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Well I diden't see tadic asking UNMIK to visit Kosovo. He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina. My personal opinion is that he should not be let in because his destructice policy towards the independence of Kosovo. Mr.Thaci in difference from me had an different opinion and decided to allow Tadic to visit Kosovo. If the goverment in Prishtina woulden't allow him to visit serbs and Tadic him self would have cry'd ''there is no religous freedom in Kosovo''. But the time comes when there is no Eulex like there are'nt any unmik and then Tadic will have to ask Thaci if he wants to visit Kosovo.
And the ICJ like you say will not rule in favor of Serbia. When the ICj rules in our favor what will Serbia do then ? Then you cannot cry international law ? Which card will you play then ?
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99.
Only two question to you. If UNMIK is in charge in Kosovo then why no UN-police ? And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ? Not to mention a goverment wich also minority serbs participate in.
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
The mighty Albanian army in Kosovo – what a sight it will be. God! You guys make me laugh please keep it up I’m sure Jerry Seinfeld is still looking for good writers.
You actually think the US would sell arms to Albanians? The closest the Albanians will ever get to “arms” is a toy store.
Very good! I like your sense of humor.
Yvery unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan,
Arberi you are saying it wasnt Albanians embarrasing themselves harrasing people on Christmas, it was Bia agents with umbrellas? Or was it Vba? They all look alike to me too.
"And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus."
(Mike, 7 January 2010 17:52)
Mike, did you read this comment:
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Now, tell me what is radical in promoting Serb drinks? I don't know. Kosovo is a democracy, and people can protest if they want to, (while serb-drink makers can use the protest to promote their drinks in Kosovo. Or maybe it was albanians who promote the drinks they buy from serb drink-makers to sell them in Kosovo). Don't you think you're blowing this out of proportion by calling them radical? Happy Christmas..
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
Although the kosovo government was not in the position to prevent tadic's visit, the common people could express their dissatisfaction in a civilized way. Nothing wrong with it, as we all see this happening here in the west. However, I see one positive thing in Tadic speech, that he tried to avoid nationalistic language. That's a step in the right direction. As for comments that kosovo is a serbian province, it is not very sure, as every time the serbian politicians have to enter the Kosovo territory they ask for permission.
We have to be rational if we are to solve anything. Tadic did change his language but differences are far greater than similarities among Serbs and Albanians. Kosovo is not going back to Serbia as everyone knows it; yet, I believe we have to reconcile and learn to live together. To many wars, to many hatred ideologies costed us lives, economically, and everything else. I am Albanian who does not hate Serbia. I want the best for all, but politics aside and we share many things than with any other nation. I want the best for both countries, I want the best for future generations, for children who can grow up thinking we are just humans rather than being raised with "us v. them" mentality. Time to see us prospect and let the tolerance prevail. Happy Christmas to all Orthodox believers, Serbian and Albanian and I wish one day we live in a borderless EU where imaginary lines are killed and humanity prevails.
>His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
(Olf,
Well lassie.. if you say so. I dont watch Tv in Kosovo, cause I'm not in Kosovo, not even close, nowhere near Kosovo.
Anyway next time you'll have chance to show youre the boss and ban him. Or the time after that. One time. Just be patient :)
'When do the Orthodox Albanians celebrate Christmas then?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:57)'
December 25: I checked some American Albanian Orthodox web-sites - their Christmas sounds a lot like other Christian Christmases here: somebody donated poinsettias to one of the churches, for example, without which it is apparently illegal or immoral to celebrate Christmas in America.
Here's one for you: http://www.neophobic.ro/art_img/adeline/28112008111931/poinsettia1.jpg - Merry Christmas!
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
=======================
Really?
So now you are going to tell the Serbs who they are and who they are not.
Why then do Albanians wave Albanian flags and speak Albanian and call themselves Albanian when they are meant to be "Kosovars"?
Why don't you give them the same speech?
Amer, thanks for clearing the matter of Orthodox Albanians and the date the celebrate Christmas for me.
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
Have you forgotten that?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:46)
"Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox"
there is no such thing my dear Peggy. yes there is Albanians with beleives of orthodox religion, but all of them are in Albania and have nothing to do with serbian orthodox religion.
My question to you is what happened to Osejane, since you were the one saying watch and see when Tadic goes there and no one can stop him.
I must tell you that this visit was the most pleasent visit, that I have ever seen from e Serbian President.
He is not welcomed because he's a enemy of our nation. I wonder how the goverment of Kosovo let him come when he fights against our freedom? He is a president of a country wich dosen't respect our independence and have no religous right to visit religous places. I hope this was the last time he was let in.
But in the end I guess it is the only way Tadic can enter Kosovo. By using the religous card. Poor president.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
People are free to protest and ask Tadic where are their missing relatives. The protest was peacefull just like everywhere. Kosovo passed another test/provocation, well done Young Kosovars.
I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land?
WHY?, people of Serbia know the truth anyhow and are fed-up with stupid(pie in the sky)propaganda. His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
"Tadic said that the purpose of his visit was to call for peace in the Balkans"
This is the first sign that Serbia is going to say sorry for the attrocities they commited in the balkans. I think Tadic should not be allowed into Kosovo again after he commented "Serbia entering the EU with Kosovo together"
Tadic knows that this will never happen, he and the politics in belgrade are using Kosovo and the Kosovo Serbs as a tool in the negotiating table to join the EU. But assured that neither Kosovo or Serbia is ever entering the EU without some sort of bialateral agreement between the two countries. NO CHANCE FOR KOSOVO GOING BACK TO SERBIA NO CHANCE
Anyone should have a right to visit religious, holy sites -- that shouldn't be open to question. but this unholy marriage of religion and politics is something else again.
that goes for any religion. lots of high sounding ideas, then they're used to promote hatred, fear, and conflict.
in the us, in the middle east, everywhere.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
(AdamSRB, 7 January 2010 11:14)
Yes AdamSRB, we definitely remember the “good old times” (jobs for Serbs, bullets for Albanians).
That is why we fought and died not to have them again.
Personally I would never let a leader of a hostile state in, no matter the “reason” for the visit is.
Nobody is fooled in Kosovo by the charm that Tadic tries to express.
Deep inside, he is no different from any other Serbian leader (Milosevic in disguise).
I guess that our leadership is trying to hard to please the Serb minority.
Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
Happy Christmas
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Well I diden't see tadic asking UNMIK to visit Kosovo. He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina. My personal opinion is that he should not be let in because his destructice policy towards the independence of Kosovo. Mr.Thaci in difference from me had an different opinion and decided to allow Tadic to visit Kosovo. If the goverment in Prishtina woulden't allow him to visit serbs and Tadic him self would have cry'd ''there is no religous freedom in Kosovo''. But the time comes when there is no Eulex like there are'nt any unmik and then Tadic will have to ask Thaci if he wants to visit Kosovo.
And the ICJ like you say will not rule in favor of Serbia. When the ICj rules in our favor what will Serbia do then ? Then you cannot cry international law ? Which card will you play then ?
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99.
Only two question to you. If UNMIK is in charge in Kosovo then why no UN-police ? And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ? Not to mention a goverment wich also minority serbs participate in.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)´
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
====================
Clearly your "professional" army is no good so step aside and let someone else do the job of protecting the Serbs.
BTW, what do you intend to use the weapons for? Killing more Serbs?
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
What an insensitive comment that highlights the ignorance of Nick.
Hey Einstein, in case you didn't know, the Latin Christmas is 25th December while the Orthodox is 7th January. Serbian Orthodox Church uses the Julian Calendar.
Serbia celebrates 2 Christmas feasts. One on the 25th for its Catholic and Protestant brethern and the Serbian Orthodox one today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Serbia
Its shows a lesson on how Serbia accommodates its Catholic and Luthern citizens that Albanian hypernationalists like you ought to learn.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
Demi - so-called KSF can't enter North without local Serbs permission ;)
International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence and are doing much better now than before 98-99
(Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)
Demi - UN investigitators finds:
1999 - 2108 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
2000 - 608 bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK, UCK fighters, Yugoslav soldiers etc.)
in next years next few hundreds bodies (incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK e.g. bodies of 22 Serbs finds in Mališevo in 2005).
According to Herardo Patrandolfi, the head of the ICRC - over 2100 people of all ethnicities are still registered as missing since the end of the conflict in Kosovo(incl. Serbs and Albanians killed by UCK)
Don't forget, that in this number is peoples killed during NATO bombardment (so - killed by NATO soldiers)
So - show me my friend where is Your 12 thousand peoples killed by Serbs????
And don't forget who started ethnic cleansings in Kosovo in 80's. New York Times 1987 - "In the last seven years, 20,000 of them (Serbs) have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north"
Demi - As you suggest, all Albanians given the chance would never allow Tadic to enter Kosovo. It just goes to show who is really in charge in Kosovo - the International community. Feith and Thaci can play games and pretend that Thaci is in charge, but we all know the reality.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
Kosovo is a UN protectorate, run by the UN whether you like it or not. It isn't independent and isn't run as though it is independent. When the ICJ finally rules in Serbia's favour, that will smash any remaining illusions of independence.
"The protesters managed to prevented people who wished to attend Christmas Eve and Christmas liturgies at the monastery from reaching their destination"
Real mature, guys. You preach about how you want good relations and a multi-ethnic society, then you prevent people from going to church.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
If this was meant as some sort of a mock on Serbs, then you are the one who is looking silly here.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
All we know for sure is that Tadic entered Kosovo without trouble and the Albanian authorities couldn't do anything about it. In the end they pretend that they let Tadic in on religious grounds. The fact is that they didn't want to let him in but are powerless to stop him unless they want to lose their meal ticket and be forced to make an honest living, which is against their religion.
So what if 100 protesters blocked a road, children will be children, especially when their president/daddy is in town.
According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that. Of course, uncivilized regimes would have ordered to fire into the crowd. That is certainly a way to unblock a road against peaceful protesters.
(John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
I am always confused when reading Albanian comments as they are flawed beyond belief. The poster above is promoting and rationalising a protest against people attending church on the second holiest day of their calander, I wonder if he could explain why this is reasonable? And with doing so he can explain how this protest does not insult the orthodox Christian population of Albanians. The reference to shooting crowds of protestors is completely irrelevant and contributes nothing to the arguement as there are no cases of such actions in Serbia.
Tadic has a right to attend the holiest site of Serbian Orthodoxy on Christmas just as every other Serb and person on this earth has, however we have a population of peoples in our country today who believe that they can prevent this from happening because it undermines them? Im not sure there is another nation in the world with such a complex. If this isnt a sign to the international community what sort of people Kosovo Albanians are then I dont know what is.
With respect to what you can do about these protests my dear ironicily named "John" you can do the same as one would do with neo-nazi rallies; stop them. Preventing people from attending a peaceful church service is no different from insiting violence, it is a direct provocation.
I guess with 70% unemployment there is nothing else to do but block roads!
Once Serbia starts governing Kosovo you will all have jobs:) remember the good times?
What if we send in the albanian army to Serbia to watch out for foreign ambassies wich serbs burned down after the independence of Kosovo ?
-- Serbia is an actual country within the UN and its sovereignty is not contested. Very poor comparison.
"Clearly the serbian army and police diden't have the capacity to secure this buildings and the people working there."
-- Nonsense. This is too silly to respond to.
"In Kosovo people at least demostrate without burning foreign buildings and beating foregniers-
(Smulan, 7 January 2010 10:53)"
-- You seem to forget the KLA terrorist veterans who threw grenades at the government building in Pristina recently? Just because they were too inept to find good grenades does not diminish this terrorist attack.
What about March 2004? Peaceful protest? I think not.
Demi you make life so easy for me. The answer to all your questions is "the UN".
"He asked EULEX wich is a middlehand between the goverment in Belgrade and the one in prishtina." True, EULEX is like the "middleman" between Serbia and Thaci but you seem to have forgotten that EULEX is under the rule of the UN. The UN and Serbia gave EULEX its powers and both can easily take them away.
"And how can a ''province'' or ''UN-protectorate'' have an army and an own police force ?" There is no army in Kosovo. You might claim there is, but in reality there isn't. If you think the KSF is an army then put them head to head with Serbia's army and we'll see how many minutes (yep, that's all it'll be) before they surrender or are crushed. And the clue is in the title - KSF. There is no word "army" in KSF. you have no tanks, planes, heavy weapons, etc like any real army, and nobody but the albanians call the KSF an army. If you were a real country with a real army, your allies, the US and EU would have already sold tanks and aircraft, etc to you. In effect they implicitly recognise UNSCR 1244 by not militarising the Albanians, which is forbidden under this resolution, but they can arm, train and equip a police force for civilian purposes as that is allowed under UNSCR 1244. Even your allies recognise you are not a legitimate country even though they keep saying you are.
If you don't realise that then you'll never realise the reality that Kosovo is a Province of Serbia, currently a UN protectorate. It may stay like that indefinitely, but you'll never be independent and never be able to join Albania unless Serbia provides it's blessing - Your masters (US and EU)won't allow it. You're buried neck deep in mud with no escape!
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
Have you forgotten that?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:46)
"Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox"
there is no such thing my dear Peggy. yes there is Albanians with beleives of orthodox religion, but all of them are in Albania and have nothing to do with serbian orthodox religion.
My question to you is what happened to Osejane, since you were the one saying watch and see when Tadic goes there and no one can stop him.
I must tell you that this visit was the most pleasent visit, that I have ever seen from e Serbian President.
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010, 10:48)
If you honestly believe that KSF will be north of the Ibar, you have very serious delusional issues... KSF would be chewed up and sent packing back south in a heartbeat. KFOR knows this reality and that is why it will never happen.
As for buying arms from the US... you are not allowed to have real weapons, and even if you were, I doubt very seriously your pathetic "Security" force would be able to use them, that is, if they were even allowed to by KFOR...
"They should take a lesson from the Israelis and drive some bulldozers through there... then those hate mongers will move:) "
Does by any chance the name "Rachel Corrie" ring a bell?
If it does and if you have some empaty for none serbian s left, please leave the zionist entity and their etnical cleansing of non-jews in the middle east out of this. Serbs are NOT racial oriented murderers. We have not been out of Kosovo for 2000 years and we DO live peacefully together with many other peoples of different faiths in our own country. The only multi-cultural country in f.Yugoslavia.
'I still don't get how a person has two birthdays, one in dec and one in Jan'..
- Nick KS.
I've NEVER read a more ignorant sentence than this ! Christ DOESN'T have two birthdays ! In both cases it is the date of 25th of December, but by two different calendars. The Orthodox Church uses the original Julian calendar since it doesn't care for the changes that a certain Pope made to it to produce the universal one that we use today. That someone might not already know this goes beyond all understanding.
Although the kosovo government was not in the position to prevent tadic's visit, the common people could express their dissatisfaction in a civilized way. Nothing wrong with it, as we all see this happening here in the west. However, I see one positive thing in Tadic speech, that he tried to avoid nationalistic language. That's a step in the right direction. As for comments that kosovo is a serbian province, it is not very sure, as every time the serbian politicians have to enter the Kosovo territory they ask for permission.
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
This is a question best asked to an Al-Jazeera forum perhaps?
To the other posters...
Let's not give religious overtones to everything... the protest was held against Serbia's president (no surprise there), not against Christmas.
It is possible that K-albanians protest without burning flats, but you all have to consider that those people one time they reached a condition of similar indipendence are running to every foreign embassy to have a visa and go away. I am Italian and I think it is a shame that my and other civilized country could recognize the indipendence of a region which is a part of a recognized country. Even if everyone like it or not, Serbia is a state, with a territory and a population which have been recognized as a nation from the international community... Kosovo is not.
I want that every Serbian brother and sister know that not all the Italians think that kosovo have to be an indipendent country, believe me.
Kosovo is Serbia, no more no less and all the pathetic protests of the k-albs cannot change this fact, even considering that kosovo has nothing to offer to the world viewed that it is producing nothing and its political class is completely corrupted.
Kosovars are only able to go abroad and live with the gains of crime activity.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Who died and make you the arbitrator?
Who says you are in any position to decide what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in Kosovo?
Tadic went to church. Great. What do you see wrong with that? Tell the US president he cannot use going to church as a photo op because that can be seen as political otherwise he can get the hell out.
“I cant stop asking myself why is he in KS? Why always for religious holidays? Whyy does he need any permition to come to his land? WHY?” (Olf, 7 January 2010 14:30)
Olf, its because Kosovo is Holy and Sacred to us, so yeah, and religious holidays are a huge part of being Serbian. If I were to convert to Catholicism I’d be considered a Croat (exactly what the Ustashe planned for 1/3 of the Serbs in Krajina btw).
You can not separate being Serbian and with Orthodox and from Kosovo as the very cradle and foundation of our identity.
That is why Olf, and unless you understand that very simple fact, you will never understand the Balkans.
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
So for a trip that was theoretically "approved" by the Albanians of Kosovo, Tadic, who was no doubt under close scrutiny for possibly saying something provocative, ends up calling for peace and reconciliation - I know, right? Someone call the ICTY. And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus. Nice job. Great way to not only dispel the idea that Pristina approved his visit, but that Kosovo is a multiethnic paradise. And a fantastic way, if I might add, of turning something that wasn't political into something very political indeed. Very "European" of them.
“According to the text, the people were peacefully demonstrating while blocking a road, something what we see in almost all civilized countries. You can't do anything about that.” (John, 7 January 2010 11:10)
“These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? (Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)”
These comments shows how much they understand civil rights.
No you can not do such things in civilized countries. Think what those anti-abortion crazies would do (or the KKK) if given the chance.
You’re side is just looking for any excuse to deny religious and social freedoms to my people.
How are you guys any better than what Milosevic was doing?
All you’re doing is strengthening the partition argument and now we’ll get all our cultural sites as well.
Tadic, BRAVO for sticking to the religious and cultural arguments, that’s our best ammo in this fight.
“International law dosen't mean you can kill 12 000 people of a region and ethnic clean 900 000 and still keep that region. Kosovo has the right to independence (Demi, 7 January 2010 11:52)”
Demi, Serbs did in exact proportion to their population. 1 Serb for every 9 Albanians. We make up roughly 25% of the ethnically cleansed (99% of the STILL ethnically cleansed) and double what our rate should be for the missing and presumed dead.
So, Albanians have not treated the Serbs any better (“Threat them as they treat you is my motto.
That is the only way to get the other side treat you better. casual_visitor”). Only difference is, we got rid of Milosevic, while you hail your criminals as heroes.
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
I think Tadic should be congratulated for his words of peace and conciliation. It was a respectful and honourable speech.
Everyone can argue on here but at the end of the day Serbia's leader did not inflame anything by his words but also did not compromise in his beliefs and position on the status of Kosovo.
He certainly is the new media darling of the Balkans and an absolute asset to a modern Serbia.
I must say that I had a blast watching Tadic saying in Albanian laguage "Happy New Year" today. He must have mixed the dates ,since new year wishes should be done on December 31 and not today. anyway ,I must handed to him for finally speaking Albanian.
(Kosova-USA, 7 January 2010 18:15)
=====================
You obvioysly don't know that you can say happy new year a week after 31st December. I am still having it said to me and I am saying it to people I have not seen since December last year.
Which society do you live in?
Tadic saying it in Albanian is polite as there are some Serbian citizen of Albanian ethnicity who are Orthodox.
Time for them all to go and the Serbian army to go in.
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 10:13)
I don't see that as a possibility in this lifetime.
(pss, 7 January 2010 10:39)
"And what do a bunch of radical Albanians do? Protest and cause a ruckus."
(Mike, 7 January 2010 17:52)
Mike, did you read this comment:
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Now, tell me what is radical in promoting Serb drinks? I don't know. Kosovo is a democracy, and people can protest if they want to, (while serb-drink makers can use the protest to promote their drinks in Kosovo. Or maybe it was albanians who promote the drinks they buy from serb drink-makers to sell them in Kosovo). Don't you think you're blowing this out of proportion by calling them radical? Happy Christmas..
I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
They dont have it in Utah. Only mormon church. Lucky you, if you did not come to Kosmet you would never find out.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
serbs are celebrating only one birthday, in january. most of the rest of the world celebrates it 2 weeks earlier because a pope declared that half of a month didn't happen a few centuries ago.
all this would not be necessary if christmas were still celebrated in the way it was originally celebrated - as a day of winter solstice. that day can be determined easily and doesn't move because of the imperfection of our calendar.
jesus was not born in either december or january, btw. he was probably born in march, but the day of winter solstice was a very popular holiday in rome in 3rd and 4th centuries as birthday of a son god called mitras, so christians adopted it as theirs and started to pretend it was actually the b-day of jesus.
so happy birthday to mitras and a nice day to all the atheists out there :)
The serbian army cannot go near Kosovo, less go inside Kosovo. And what would they do there ? Kill some more albanian civilians like in 98-99 ?
The only legitimate army in Kosovo are KFOR and KSF wich will soon operate in the entire territory of Kosovo. Just wait until we buy some arms from US.
(Demi, 7 January 2010 10:48)
The mighty Albanian army in Kosovo – what a sight it will be. God! You guys make me laugh please keep it up I’m sure Jerry Seinfeld is still looking for good writers.
You actually think the US would sell arms to Albanians? The closest the Albanians will ever get to “arms” is a toy store.
Very good! I like your sense of humor.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
LOL, Nick, this is easy.
The celebration is always on the same day. Now - what that "same day" does mean? As you know, the event happened over 2000 years ago and the lunar year is not precisely 365 or 366 days, there are few seconds extra. The medieval scientists discovered the difference and after original "Julian" (after Gaius Julius Caesar) calendar an other calendar was proposed with distribution of leap-years not every fourth year (like in Julian), but with adjustment every century. This is being called "Gregorian" calendar.
The difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar (i.e. these little "extra" seconds) did "accumulate" in about two weeks within 2000 years.
As you may or maybe do not know: there was so-called "great schism" between all eastern (including Egyptian coptic church) and the church of Bishop of Rome ("Pope", "catholic" church) around the first millennia. The "schism" had political/economic/social reasons long gone (and that schism has zero sense today, btw.) - but as a mere "side-effect" the "eastern" churches decided to stay with original Roman calendar, while the "western" ( = Roman Catholic) church adopted the new calendar.
In the mean time "eastern" churches increasingly turned to the Gregorian calendar, some (like Egyptian Copt, Assyrian, Georgian, Serbian, Russian) are still using the "old" calendar for religious holidays while using the "new" calendar for everyday job.
Except the monastic Republic of Holy Mountain (Athos) in Greece: the monks there are using the "old" calendar even for everyday job, so if you would cross the border between Greece Proper and Athos, you have to set your calendar 13 days "behind"! I.e. today is December 25, 2009 on Athos.
Before really wondering about Athos being so "backwards": everyone (males only) is allowed to visit the monastic republic, be them Orthodox or Muslim or Catholic or Buddhists. But the "rest of us" can't visit Mekkah or Medina. But why "male only" on Athos? Well, monks would like to protect themself from getting some ideas not really "in-line" with monastic life. Fully understand... ;-)
I don't get it! Tadic came to Kosovo to celebrate Christmas with his people and came with a message of peace and what did the albanians do? Block the very road he came through. This is in no way a peacefull demonstration. It is a provocation and a message to the Serbs of what to expect when KFOR leaves! The Serbs can't even spend Christmas in peace.
Would be a good opportunity for the KPS to show that they became a professional police force and are able to stop this illegal road blocking. Will this happen? Probably not...
These protesters were peaceful, whats wrong with you ppl? Arent Albanians allowed to protest? Guess not in a Serb mind.
(Pejoni, 7 January 2010 12:24)
As long as you do not block the road - fine.
All my sympathy with the workers, but same is true for Serbs: blocking the railway around Lapovo and making international travelers to Bulgaria / Greece / FYROM swear and arrive with 12 hours delay, miss the connection, etc etc is not just. You have your opinion and / or problems - fine to protest. But do not let others who aren't at fault to suffer from your opinion or from your problems.
In any case: if the people stay on the side of the road and protest or hand out some propaganda leaflets to the drivers - fine. If they block the road, it's not. Regardless, are they Albanians, Roma, Serbs, Russians, whoever.
I am a free man, if I decide to go to Decani by road or to Thessaloniki by rail for peaceful reason - the protesters can't restrict my freedom to do so. If they do - I will be angry.
I still dont get it how a person has two birthdays, one in December and one in January. Someone enlighten me please, these Serbs are confusing me.
(Nick KS, 7 January 2010 12:22)
--
Christmas is celebrated on the 25th of December. Today is the 25th of December on the Julian Calendar, which is what Orthodox Churches follow. Check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
Is very sad that ordinary people are prevented from attending church on what is for them their Christmas Day... just as is very sad that some people below would describe this act as a 'peaceful protest'.
A happy Christmas to those of you who celebrate it as such.
There’s no way you’d see these kinds of protests at the Mosques in Serbia in this day and age.
Visit RS in Bosnia, FULL of new Mosques.
Merry XMAS All!!!!!!!
(Matthew, 7 January 2010 17:58)
================
Exactly.
Did we see any protests around mosqus during Ramadan or any other day? NO.
If they want the world to see them as tolerant, epecially the Christian world then they cannot obstruct anyone's wish to pray at Christmas.
Really doing well at showing their true colours. Saying things like we are not religious we are secular, we are moderate just makes a mockery of them when they do this.
And explain this, as Albanians aren't running Kosovo, name another "independent country" whose citizens aren't in charge?
(Radoslav, 7 January 2010 10:45)
Serbia. Isn't NATO in "charge" of 15% of your territory and apparently you cannot do anything about it?
(Zoti, 7 January 2010 15:22)
'When do the Orthodox Albanians celebrate Christmas then?
(Peggy, 7 January 2010 20:57)'
December 25: I checked some American Albanian Orthodox web-sites - their Christmas sounds a lot like other Christian Christmases here: somebody donated poinsettias to one of the churches, for example, without which it is apparently illegal or immoral to celebrate Christmas in America.
Here's one for you: http://www.neophobic.ro/art_img/adeline/28112008111931/poinsettia1.jpg - Merry Christmas!
Stupid me, sorry, I mean, "solar year". The "lunar" holiday is way to soon, too - was reading my e-mails and apologies for stupidity.
In my situation I have also to watch for Lunar New Year celebrations because during that time all communication is over for a week and we need plan ahead. Sorry for mix-up, this is about SOLAR calendar, not LUNAR.
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
Congratulations on the most factually incorrect post yet. Any Serb living in Kosovo is a citizen of SERBIA, Einstein. They have passports for SERBIA, receive pensions from SERBIA, and have access to education, health, and civil benefits of SERBIA. You can wish how you want but this is the reality.
Oh, and for the record since you are not Albanian, the rest of the civilized world calls this place KosovO.
well.....in light of the rather humorous post of yours (I did chuckle), we can always presume a ruckus is abound when drinks + holidays + Balkan people intersect :P
Hopefully they were advertising something good? :)
Peggy,
There are no Serbian citizens in Kosovo, barr those who work for Serbian gov't and are from Serbia proper, such as Tadic and his entourage, the MUP "employees" in Serbian enclaves, human-drug traffickers in northern end of Kosova. The citizens of Kosova are citizens of Kosova be that orthodox faith or any other including the clergy of the Orthodox Monastiries in Kosova.
(Mirub Jager, 7 January 2010 21:54)
=======================
Really?
So now you are going to tell the Serbs who they are and who they are not.
Why then do Albanians wave Albanian flags and speak Albanian and call themselves Albanian when they are meant to be "Kosovars"?
Why don't you give them the same speech?
Amer, thanks for clearing the matter of Orthodox Albanians and the date the celebrate Christmas for me.
The fact that non-Muslims cannot visit Mecca, Medina, and the Dome of the Rock says more about the Middle East and the sort of governments that rule there rather than Muslims in general.
(Ment, 7 January 2010 16:42)
This is probably correct and we have to think, why since 1500-s there is not a single functioning country over there. By a mere(?) coincidence: like with Balkans, this time is the time shadowed by Ottoman occupation. And before that they had Selcuk and Mongol invasions.
Regarding this long discussion about different calendar usage seems for me good thing to measure the time... if we use the muslim calendar they around 600 years back... only two weeks among orthodox church and catolic is not a big issue. BTW very soon balcan countries will be reconciled well and be part of big europian family, only after that lot of you that are posting here lot of "radical comments" will change and will change a lot.
Peace to ALL!!!
"I was There , the protest took about 30 min. and belive it or not there was a protester holding a huge UMBRELLA advertising a Serbian Drink!! the name of the drink is seen all over his umbrella , very unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan, 7 January 2010 11:49)"
Did anybody read this comment?
The protest lasted 30 minutes. Nothing extraordinary or bad, there were people advertising Serbian drinks, since the Serbian president was there, and usually presidents are followed by cameras. A perfect example of cooperation between serb drink-makers and albanian citizens of kosovo.
We have to be rational if we are to solve anything. Tadic did change his language but differences are far greater than similarities among Serbs and Albanians. Kosovo is not going back to Serbia as everyone knows it; yet, I believe we have to reconcile and learn to live together. To many wars, to many hatred ideologies costed us lives, economically, and everything else. I am Albanian who does not hate Serbia. I want the best for all, but politics aside and we share many things than with any other nation. I want the best for both countries, I want the best for future generations, for children who can grow up thinking we are just humans rather than being raised with "us v. them" mentality. Time to see us prospect and let the tolerance prevail. Happy Christmas to all Orthodox believers, Serbian and Albanian and I wish one day we live in a borderless EU where imaginary lines are killed and humanity prevails.
so that applies to tadic as well. if you come in peace to kosovo/a, that's great. many happy returns. but if you come to foment the usual ueber-nationalism, then get out, and be done with you!
thank you.
roberto frisco
(roberto, 7 January 2010 18:27)
Gee bleeding heart liberal with your fake moral outrage, what about those 250,000 Serbs, Jews, Roma etc. who were ethnically cleansed from Kosmet by the KLA along with hundreds of churches torched and destroyed in 2004. Wasn't that the result of Albanian 'ueber-nationalism'? Then maybe they too should get out and be done with it and you with them.
>His visit to Kosovo was not even the top news lasy night.
(Olf,
Well lassie.. if you say so. I dont watch Tv in Kosovo, cause I'm not in Kosovo, not even close, nowhere near Kosovo.
Anyway next time you'll have chance to show youre the boss and ban him. Or the time after that. One time. Just be patient :)
Yvery unusuall Protest i would say , Protest against Serbian President but on the mean time Advertise a Serbian Drink
(Arberi_Deqan,
Arberi you are saying it wasnt Albanians embarrasing themselves harrasing people on Christmas, it was Bia agents with umbrellas? Or was it Vba? They all look alike to me too.
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