"Holbrooke knows we're not criminals"

"So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke
(Kosova-USA, 28 December 2009 13:14) "

If there is true justice in this world, Holbrooke himself should be incarcerated at the Hague. And this is no joke.

It has been established beyond any doubt that the ICC
has been deliberately partial
in its pursuit of alleged Serb war criminals in the Balkan conflict while conveniently ignoring Croatian,Bosnian and Albanian
war criminals.Most notably was the absence of any arrests for the crimes committed against Serbs in Krajina.

Richard Holbrook has a reputation for habitual lying and "back stabbing"in order to get results.Only two months ago he was accused by president karzai in Afganistan that he was undermined by Holbrook's secret deals with the war lords and the taliban.

I find it very difficult to believe that karadzic would have agreed to any peace deal
without obtaining an agreement on his immunity from prosecution.But again Karadzic was naive to believe that someone like Holbrook will honour any agreement.

I feel that some kind of Independent Forum should be founded to investigate the entire 'Srebrenica thing'.
I have my doubts about what happened there.
Was the incident really staged by the then Washington Regime? (compare Racak)
Were Serbs being hounded by Muslim forces in the preceding 2-3 years?
Are the numbers of 'dead' massively exaggerated?

I have lost all faith in the western media because of so many lies being reported as truths regarding the Balkan 'Wars'.
I also have a fear for Mr. Karadzic personal security as certain evil 'officials' in Washington and Berlin would be interested in shutting him up.
I DO know that foul play was involved in the death of Mr. Milosevic so I am wary that the same fate might await Mr. Karadzic.

MB,Ireland

"He was fully aware that we are not war criminals since on the contrary he would not have negotiated with us"

Siege of Sarajevo (sniping kids)
Srebrenica
Foca...

P.S. US 'negotiated' even with Slobodan, Jeremic, Saddam, the NK leader

So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke

"Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth?" (Kosova-USA)

-- He certainly likes to think he is. The man is certainly notorious for preaching about international law and consensus in front of a microphone, but cuts deals like a true Machiavellian behind closed doors. The only trouble is when his deals come to light, he disavows having anything to do with it to cover his own hind quarters.

I may despise the man, but I have to give him credit for being an incredibly shrewd dealmaker and dealbreaker. He certainly didn't get where he got by charm (he has the personality of a dead mackrel).

If Hoolbrooke granted Karadzic free passage and changed his mind (or never intended so), so what? If this strategy works that a person like Karadzic can removed from office, without a single shot or violence, but only with a lie, then I can live with that. Wished that this would work with Achmadinedshad or Kim Yong Il, too.

However, that part is in my opinion completely irrelevant. Did Karadzic say something about the genocide in Srebrenica, or does he continue to deny that, just as most Serbs did in the 90s?

Short and clear:

People who deny the Srebrenica massacre or try to relative it have neither honor nor dignity. They are the personification of digrace which consumes their humanism because of an unfullfilled life, dominated by nationalism.

Attn: Berkeley

Where on earth did you come up with that load of gobbledegook? - self-concocted, I presume.

If you wish to have blind faith in the politically manipulated western media, well, then, you are showing contempt for reality.

You can see from my earlier comment that I am calling for an Independent Forum to investigate 'Srebrenica'. I am not denying or claiming anything.
Isn't it strange, though, that with my modest efforts so far in trying to establish such a Forum, all the opposition I am coming up against is emanating from the Muslim, Croatian, US and German camps. OH! and NATO, of course.
What are they afraid of? I wonder!

MB,Ireland

I would venture to say that since Holbrooke was representing the USA and since the USA is the MOST POWERFUL military and economy in the world it stands to reason that this representative speaks for the world. Is that something like the argument presented in favor of Kosovo's independence?
So to remember all of the musings that we've all read in the past few months: Since USA supports Kosovo's independence (a support that has ignored UN charter and policy) the same could be applied to Holbrook's and Karadzic's agreement (if there was one).
Secondly, I noticed that there was some bizarre attempt to group together 'criminals', such as Milosevic, Hussien and Kim Jong Il. May we all remember that none of these figures were found guilty in an international independent court. SH was convicted in an Iraqi court that was backed by the very aggressors that have destroyed that country. Imagine if German SS judges ruled over the Nuremberg trials. I wonder how fair the world's Jewish population would have thought it was. The SH trials were just as farcical as such a hypothetical trial would have been.

“Wished that this would work with Achmadinedshad or Kim Yong Il, too. (Berkeley, 28 December 2009 14:12)”

Berkeley it was precisely US double dealing, lying and murder that led directly to the establishment of those regimes. (Remember the Shah and how the CIA propped up his regime through violence and murder against innocent civilians and democracy?)

Karadzic is foolish to believe anything coming out of Holbrooke’s mouth.

You are right, Michael. I also fear that something unexpected (heart attack?) may find Mr. Karadjic before all the truth comes out. The US has an enormous amount to lose.

Karadžić said that he is certain that Holbrooke "would have fulfilled his obligation if he had had a chance but would never admit that".
--
The point is, Holbrooke was not in a position to promise anything to Karadzic and eventually ended up lying. The same will happen with the promise of Kosovo independence. The US again is in no position to promise such things and it will end up in the same garbage pile as Karadžić's immunity.

Thank you Micheal Breathnach. I enjoy reading your comments- may i suggest a blog of your own? '

I don´t like B92 or any other mainstream soros-media, the only reason i read it is to find whats left out and some truth between the lines...

People who deny the Srebrenica massacre or try to relative it have neither honor nor dignity. They are the personification of digrace which consumes their humanism because of an unfullfilled life, dominated by nationalism.
(Berkeley, 28 December 2009 19:17)

Could not be said better.

So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke
(Kosova-USA, 28 December 2009 13:14)

For your information Holbrooke represented Bill Clinton. Holbrooke’s word is Bill Clinton’s word – that’s how it works.

Thank you Michael for enlightning us with your wisdom and crystal ball reading.

Even if the numbers are exaggerated in Srebrenica case how many dead are enough for you to get the attention of the non-Soros-funded and non-US-regimed media?

I guess you were present to witness the whole Racak massacre being "staged" so I will not bother with details.

I wonder why innocent persons such as Karadic and Mladic are hiding despite the truth? People that hide behind a different name such as Karadic are most likely to have a personality problem with their past.

Micheal Breathnach (or better: Mikael Breathnachic), the Srebrenica massacre is well-documented and analyzed. There is even a verdict of the international court which states this incident as genocide. What on earth you want to discuss?

If you want to do so, then I suggest to take the next plane to Teheran. But hurry because when we see the developments in Teheran then there is maybe a chance that the people of Iran will soon get rid of the tyrannic garbage which is called Islamic government.

...divine justice says Karadjic.
The master of myth creations is hard at work again. This time to save his skin.

I am sorry but ‘amnesty’ and ‘we are not criminals’ are contradictory terms. If you broke the law, you are a criminal. If you have amnesty then you have been ‘forgiven’ for the crime you did. So Mr. Karadzic you are either a criminal with a claim for amnesty, or you are just a criminal without amnesty…but you do not have to listen to me, the court will eventually decide. Unless of course your fate is similar to that of Milosevic.

There seems to be a lot of talk about Srebrenica on this forum, time for my two cents.

Did everyone here forget about the 3000 Serb deaths prior to the massacre (aka the "genocide") by one Naser Oric, who is actually acquitted by this so called court? I would say the response was heavy handed but it was a response nonetheless. To say there was genocide would mean that the Bosniak population was systematically being eradicated. Were there only a little over 8000 Bosniaks in all of Bosnia? For this to even qualify for a genocide there would have to have been several Srebrenica type massacres in Bosnia to fulfill the systematic extermination condition. Clearly this is not the case. I will agree it's a massacre but it's nowhere near a genocide. Jews had one, Armenians had one, Bosniaks.... no way hosey.

Now let me get you guys to look at this from another angle... This whole war criminal thing. If these guys (the war criminals) we're such monsters that media makes them out to be, why weren't they dealt with Munich style?

It would be very clear to anyone who was in the region at the time that little work was getting done to catch the big fish, so why not take it in your hands? Why not organise a group of people to start your own little witch hunt (from all sides), similar to what Jews did to the surviving Nazi officers in Munich? Can anyone tell me why this did not happen? Does anyone really think it would so hard/expensive to organise this? If anyone can give me a clear answer to this then you clearly see this war criminal thing for the farce that it is.

I feel that some kind of Independent Forum should be founded to investigate the entire 'Srebrenica thing'.
I have my doubts about what happened there.
Was the incident really staged by the then Washington Regime? (compare Racak)
Were Serbs being hounded by Muslim forces in the preceding 2-3 years?
Are the numbers of 'dead' massively exaggerated?

I have lost all faith in the western media because of so many lies being reported as truths regarding the Balkan 'Wars'.
I also have a fear for Mr. Karadzic personal security as certain evil 'officials' in Washington and Berlin would be interested in shutting him up.
I DO know that foul play was involved in the death of Mr. Milosevic so I am wary that the same fate might await Mr. Karadzic.

MB,Ireland
(Micheal Breathnach, 28 December 2009 14:57)
As far as an independent forum, you have it, it is the ICTY, which was set up by the Security Council which has your closest ally.
It is impossible to get more "independent" than that. An independent council cannot be a group of Serbians deciding the fact. You will only be satisfied if you hear what you want, you do not want "independent" consideration at all because that will always be against Serbia.
As far as Karadzic's safety, I too fear for this because as everyone outside of Serbia knows that Milosevic died because a conviction of the President would have meant a conviction of Serbia and not only guaranteed Kosovo to be independent but opened the door for huge monetary reparations.
Even if there was a deal for Karadzic to withdraw from public (which is highly improbable) it does nothing to exonerate him from his crimes.
Just another case where "if I say it enough" it must be true. Same strategy as Yellow House.
No proof just rumors repeated enough to convince those who want to be convinced.

Its very simple guys, civilians do die in wars but Serbia chose wrong side. Bosnian Muslims chose mujaheddin to help them and nobody said anything while Serbs killed them. Serbs chose Russia to help them and they too lost. I'm not saying which side is better just saying that USA and the hole west are just a bit more powerful than mujaheddin and Russians. Choose wrong you loose. To the determination of who is stronger now, or who have stronger friends its needed a war, so if you do not intend to start war again stop with "we are stronger".

Mr Roe,

I understand your lamentation.
In SH an "innocent" man was condemmed. Isn't it terrible how injustice progressed lately in this world?

What is Karadzice's obsession with Holbrook? Karadzic is charged with genocide he should focus on that charge and needs to stop telling us his fairytales. It is a disgrace that this man has not yet been convicted and sentenced to death for the genocide he orchestrated. Enough games have been played and now its time to bring justice to Karadzic and other war criminals involved in the Bosnian Genocide.

It is well known around Balkans that radovan karacic has orderd to kill the Bosnian Muslims. He Should Go to Prision 4Life.

(Berkeley, 28 December 2009 23:30)

before you start calling people "Mikael Breathnachic" and similar you should inform yourself about people who agree that there is something fishy about srebrenica being considered a "genocide" and i don't mean serbian nationalists or even serbians at all. first of all, the court that declared srebrenica a genocide is accused of being political, so asking for an independent commission is not unreasonable. second, while it is not a nice point to make it is strange that a massacre of military agded males in a small town is being put in the same category as the attempt to exterminate the european jewry during the ww2. if this is genocide can we talk about a genocide at mai lai where women and children were not spared (unlike in srebrenica)? what about sabra and shatila? to me these crimes are massacres and very cynical at that. but considering them genocides is in a way a relatvisation of genocide. what happened to jews during the ww2 was far more terrible.

now, i don't mind lowering the standards for calling something a genocide if the standard is universally applied which of course is not going to happen. and in each case i am strongly opposed to use of genocide for political purposes. but that is precisely what is happening with srebrenica. bosniak politicians call for abolition of rs because it is an entity created through genocide, they say. they also asked for reparations from serbia, but serbia was cleared of genocide charges and it was even stated that there was no proof that there was an attempt by bosnian serbs to exterminate bosnian muslims as a group. then nato bombed serbia in order to "prevent another srebrenica", they say. and it may be useful that you can attack a country in order to "prevent genocide". in sudan, for example (darfur). or anywhere else where it suits you geopolitically and you can find a regime stupid enough to allow a massacre in some village.

finally, the term "genocide" is emotionally loaded. it can become an obstacle for reconciliation in the balkans. those who profit most from the verdict of icty are nato leaders who insist on painting themselves as humanitarians. for the people of the balkans it simply means less understanding and reconciliation.

Also what does he mean by "WE" when he says WE are not criminals? Is he insinuating that by saying "WE" the average Serb is not guilty? Is he, by saying, "WE" that the average Serb was somehow part and thus responsible for these crimes? Because last time I checked it was "HE" alone (not the average Serb) who is being accused. It is "HE" alone (not the average Serb) who sits on that jail cell. So since the average Serb is not being accused, and is not sitting on that jail cell, then what is this "WE" about? Is it an attempt to rationalize crimes? Is it an attempt to remove HIMSELF from responsibility of such crimes by turning them into a collective thing to be shared with the average Serb hence "HE" alone cannot be deemed responsible and pointed out from the crowd?
On one hand you have Serb officials asking for an individualized treatment of the crimes that occurred. On the other hand you have the Serbs here on B92 siding along with Karadjic despite the fact that he openly makes his actions for which he is in jail for seem to be collective (average Serb included in them) and not individual actions which he made himself and thus HE HIMSELF is responsible for. There is clearly a discrepancy in the attitudes of the Serb posters here, who on the one side want to have an individualized treatment of the crimes that have occurred and on the other side fully support Kradjic despite the fact that HE clearly thinks HIS actions were collective and not HIS alone but YOURS; hence he says WE are not criminals.

MB, given that there have been multiple independent forums and investigations of the Srebrenica horror as well as the bloodletting that swept down the Drina, Una and Bosna Rivers, then perhaps it us up to you to start to research the events rather than wait for someone else to serve it pre-cooked on a platter, as you don't accept the findings of these other ones. There is a mountain of texts, reports, witness statements, sites that provide unnervingly precise details about the methods of the new apartheid that was and is imposed upon BiH. Start simple with wiki check the RDC, UNHCR, ICTY read the accounts from the front lines, compare the reporting from both sides- now that always makes interesting reading. The differential between the propaganda and the eventual revelations will tell you more about the nature of the event than any speakfest. Be warned it will make you weep for humanity.

Isn't it ironic that the "defenders of international law" are actually the ones who propose destroying it.
"If" ICJ rules against Serbia it is corrupt, ICTY rules against Serbia so it is political, we need an "independent" commission.
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
you are confusing things. the un security council is not democratic since the 5 permanent members can veto any decisions, so its decisions depend on how powerful they are. they set up icty which is considered political. icj on the othe hand while not free from pressure is more indpendent. now, which of the 2 do you think declared srebrenica a genocide and which concluded that there is no proof that bosnian serbs wanted to exterminate bosnian muslims as a group and freed serbia from genocide charges. and given that these 2 decisions are contradictory can we conclude that there is a problem with one of them?

How more independent can you get than one set up by the UN??? Nothing on this planet.
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
again the security council is not independent. i'm sure supporters of the albanian cause will remember that when they say russia would have vetoed any decisions on kosov that the us would have pushed for.


Who do you really propose, be on this "independent" commission?
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
preferably local people who have no interest in seeing the people of the balkans bitterly divided.


If we dismissed every conviction because the guilty felt the judge was corrupt, political, or just plain unfair, we would have no need for prisons would we?
And finally was that not what the whole Yugoslavia break up was about?
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
divide and rule. creating banana republics instead of serious countries. do you feel satisfied with my reply, dear banana republican?

No but it is pretty much what I expected. No answers just rhectoric.
(pss, 30 December 2009 00:07)
my last question was just "rhectoric", but otherwise i answered all your questions. in particular i pointed out that there is a contradiction between findings of the icj and icty. i also pointed out that it may appear strange that a massacre of military aged males in a small town is put in the same category as the holocaust. and there is nothing i like or dislike here - i am just saying that before you accuse someone of being a serbian nationalist by adding an "-ic" to their name you should inform yourself about non-nationalist criticism of the work of icty.

rhetoric is coming from you in this "discussion", not from me.

and this is not simply about the international law. it is about powerful countries doing whatever they want. international law is important since it is the only protection small countries have against big ones. powerful countries have veto in the security council, but even so, plenty of stuff they are doing is not even being discussed there because they are so powerful that noone dares to challenge them. the us had most vetos in the un since 1960's, but it never needed to veto a decision on the most brutal war they waged in this period, the vietnam war (where they committed "genocide" in many places by the logic of icty).

powerful countries often use local conflicts for their own purposes, be it americans in the balkans or russians in the caucasus. and when they "join forces" like they did in afghanistan in 1980's they are capable of destroying a country.

getting along with this program is not cool and that's my problem both with kosovo's independence and revanchism of serbia's neighbours. instead of looking to cooperate with each other peoples of the balkans are looking to the big powers to "help" them.

do you feel satisfied with my reply, dear banana republican?
(malcolm x, 29 December 2009 21:48)
No but it is pretty much what I expected. No answers just rhectoric.
You will find no panel as impartial unless they give the ruling you want. That my friend is not international law.

Isn't it ironic that the "defenders of international law" are actually the ones who propose destroying it.
"If" ICJ rules against Serbia it is corrupt, ICTY rules against Serbia so it is political, we need an "independent" commission.
How more independent can you get than one set up by the UN??? Nothing on this planet.
Who do you really propose, be on this "independent" commission?
If we dismissed every conviction because the guilty felt the judge was corrupt, political, or just plain unfair, we would have no need for prisons would we?
And finally was that not what the whole Yugoslavia break up was about? Those who thought laws fair to Yugoslavians should be replaced with ones that favor Serbians.
No matter how much you may want it, the UN will not be replaced by a Serbian council.

If Hoolbrooke granted Karadzic free passage and changed his mind (or never intended so), so what? If this strategy works that a person like Karadzic can removed from office, without a single shot or violence, but only with a lie, then I can live with that. Wished that this would work with Achmadinedshad or Kim Yong Il, too.

However, that part is in my opinion completely irrelevant. Did Karadzic say something about the genocide in Srebrenica, or does he continue to deny that, just as most Serbs did in the 90s?

So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke

"He was fully aware that we are not war criminals since on the contrary he would not have negotiated with us"

Siege of Sarajevo (sniping kids)
Srebrenica
Foca...

P.S. US 'negotiated' even with Slobodan, Jeremic, Saddam, the NK leader

Thank you Michael for enlightning us with your wisdom and crystal ball reading.

Even if the numbers are exaggerated in Srebrenica case how many dead are enough for you to get the attention of the non-Soros-funded and non-US-regimed media?

I guess you were present to witness the whole Racak massacre being "staged" so I will not bother with details.

I wonder why innocent persons such as Karadic and Mladic are hiding despite the truth? People that hide behind a different name such as Karadic are most likely to have a personality problem with their past.

Short and clear:

People who deny the Srebrenica massacre or try to relative it have neither honor nor dignity. They are the personification of digrace which consumes their humanism because of an unfullfilled life, dominated by nationalism.

"So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke
(Kosova-USA, 28 December 2009 13:14) "

If there is true justice in this world, Holbrooke himself should be incarcerated at the Hague. And this is no joke.

I feel that some kind of Independent Forum should be founded to investigate the entire 'Srebrenica thing'.
I have my doubts about what happened there.
Was the incident really staged by the then Washington Regime? (compare Racak)
Were Serbs being hounded by Muslim forces in the preceding 2-3 years?
Are the numbers of 'dead' massively exaggerated?

I have lost all faith in the western media because of so many lies being reported as truths regarding the Balkan 'Wars'.
I also have a fear for Mr. Karadzic personal security as certain evil 'officials' in Washington and Berlin would be interested in shutting him up.
I DO know that foul play was involved in the death of Mr. Milosevic so I am wary that the same fate might await Mr. Karadzic.

MB,Ireland

People who deny the Srebrenica massacre or try to relative it have neither honor nor dignity. They are the personification of digrace which consumes their humanism because of an unfullfilled life, dominated by nationalism.
(Berkeley, 28 December 2009 19:17)

Could not be said better.

Micheal Breathnach (or better: Mikael Breathnachic), the Srebrenica massacre is well-documented and analyzed. There is even a verdict of the international court which states this incident as genocide. What on earth you want to discuss?

If you want to do so, then I suggest to take the next plane to Teheran. But hurry because when we see the developments in Teheran then there is maybe a chance that the people of Iran will soon get rid of the tyrannic garbage which is called Islamic government.

Mr Roe,

I understand your lamentation.
In SH an "innocent" man was condemmed. Isn't it terrible how injustice progressed lately in this world?

You are right, Michael. I also fear that something unexpected (heart attack?) may find Mr. Karadjic before all the truth comes out. The US has an enormous amount to lose.

Attn: Berkeley

Where on earth did you come up with that load of gobbledegook? - self-concocted, I presume.

If you wish to have blind faith in the politically manipulated western media, well, then, you are showing contempt for reality.

You can see from my earlier comment that I am calling for an Independent Forum to investigate 'Srebrenica'. I am not denying or claiming anything.
Isn't it strange, though, that with my modest efforts so far in trying to establish such a Forum, all the opposition I am coming up against is emanating from the Muslim, Croatian, US and German camps. OH! and NATO, of course.
What are they afraid of? I wonder!

MB,Ireland

What is Karadzice's obsession with Holbrook? Karadzic is charged with genocide he should focus on that charge and needs to stop telling us his fairytales. It is a disgrace that this man has not yet been convicted and sentenced to death for the genocide he orchestrated. Enough games have been played and now its time to bring justice to Karadzic and other war criminals involved in the Bosnian Genocide.

I am sorry but ‘amnesty’ and ‘we are not criminals’ are contradictory terms. If you broke the law, you are a criminal. If you have amnesty then you have been ‘forgiven’ for the crime you did. So Mr. Karadzic you are either a criminal with a claim for amnesty, or you are just a criminal without amnesty…but you do not have to listen to me, the court will eventually decide. Unless of course your fate is similar to that of Milosevic.

It has been established beyond any doubt that the ICC
has been deliberately partial
in its pursuit of alleged Serb war criminals in the Balkan conflict while conveniently ignoring Croatian,Bosnian and Albanian
war criminals.Most notably was the absence of any arrests for the crimes committed against Serbs in Krajina.

Richard Holbrook has a reputation for habitual lying and "back stabbing"in order to get results.Only two months ago he was accused by president karzai in Afganistan that he was undermined by Holbrook's secret deals with the war lords and the taliban.

I find it very difficult to believe that karadzic would have agreed to any peace deal
without obtaining an agreement on his immunity from prosecution.But again Karadzic was naive to believe that someone like Holbrook will honour any agreement.

Thank you Micheal Breathnach. I enjoy reading your comments- may i suggest a blog of your own? '

I don´t like B92 or any other mainstream soros-media, the only reason i read it is to find whats left out and some truth between the lines...

Karadžić said that he is certain that Holbrooke "would have fulfilled his obligation if he had had a chance but would never admit that".
--
The point is, Holbrooke was not in a position to promise anything to Karadzic and eventually ended up lying. The same will happen with the promise of Kosovo independence. The US again is in no position to promise such things and it will end up in the same garbage pile as Karadžić's immunity.

...divine justice says Karadjic.
The master of myth creations is hard at work again. This time to save his skin.

“Wished that this would work with Achmadinedshad or Kim Yong Il, too. (Berkeley, 28 December 2009 14:12)”

Berkeley it was precisely US double dealing, lying and murder that led directly to the establishment of those regimes. (Remember the Shah and how the CIA propped up his regime through violence and murder against innocent civilians and democracy?)

Karadzic is foolish to believe anything coming out of Holbrooke’s mouth.

Its very simple guys, civilians do die in wars but Serbia chose wrong side. Bosnian Muslims chose mujaheddin to help them and nobody said anything while Serbs killed them. Serbs chose Russia to help them and they too lost. I'm not saying which side is better just saying that USA and the hole west are just a bit more powerful than mujaheddin and Russians. Choose wrong you loose. To the determination of who is stronger now, or who have stronger friends its needed a war, so if you do not intend to start war again stop with "we are stronger".

I feel that some kind of Independent Forum should be founded to investigate the entire 'Srebrenica thing'.
I have my doubts about what happened there.
Was the incident really staged by the then Washington Regime? (compare Racak)
Were Serbs being hounded by Muslim forces in the preceding 2-3 years?
Are the numbers of 'dead' massively exaggerated?

I have lost all faith in the western media because of so many lies being reported as truths regarding the Balkan 'Wars'.
I also have a fear for Mr. Karadzic personal security as certain evil 'officials' in Washington and Berlin would be interested in shutting him up.
I DO know that foul play was involved in the death of Mr. Milosevic so I am wary that the same fate might await Mr. Karadzic.

MB,Ireland
(Micheal Breathnach, 28 December 2009 14:57)
As far as an independent forum, you have it, it is the ICTY, which was set up by the Security Council which has your closest ally.
It is impossible to get more "independent" than that. An independent council cannot be a group of Serbians deciding the fact. You will only be satisfied if you hear what you want, you do not want "independent" consideration at all because that will always be against Serbia.
As far as Karadzic's safety, I too fear for this because as everyone outside of Serbia knows that Milosevic died because a conviction of the President would have meant a conviction of Serbia and not only guaranteed Kosovo to be independent but opened the door for huge monetary reparations.
Even if there was a deal for Karadzic to withdraw from public (which is highly improbable) it does nothing to exonerate him from his crimes.
Just another case where "if I say it enough" it must be true. Same strategy as Yellow House.
No proof just rumors repeated enough to convince those who want to be convinced.

It is well known around Balkans that radovan karacic has orderd to kill the Bosnian Muslims. He Should Go to Prision 4Life.

So,Holbrooke granted you an amnesty right? Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth? what a joke
(Kosova-USA, 28 December 2009 13:14)

For your information Holbrooke represented Bill Clinton. Holbrooke’s word is Bill Clinton’s word – that’s how it works.

"Since when did Mr. Holbrooke became the Head of planet Earth?" (Kosova-USA)

-- He certainly likes to think he is. The man is certainly notorious for preaching about international law and consensus in front of a microphone, but cuts deals like a true Machiavellian behind closed doors. The only trouble is when his deals come to light, he disavows having anything to do with it to cover his own hind quarters.

I may despise the man, but I have to give him credit for being an incredibly shrewd dealmaker and dealbreaker. He certainly didn't get where he got by charm (he has the personality of a dead mackrel).

MB, given that there have been multiple independent forums and investigations of the Srebrenica horror as well as the bloodletting that swept down the Drina, Una and Bosna Rivers, then perhaps it us up to you to start to research the events rather than wait for someone else to serve it pre-cooked on a platter, as you don't accept the findings of these other ones. There is a mountain of texts, reports, witness statements, sites that provide unnervingly precise details about the methods of the new apartheid that was and is imposed upon BiH. Start simple with wiki check the RDC, UNHCR, ICTY read the accounts from the front lines, compare the reporting from both sides- now that always makes interesting reading. The differential between the propaganda and the eventual revelations will tell you more about the nature of the event than any speakfest. Be warned it will make you weep for humanity.

I would venture to say that since Holbrooke was representing the USA and since the USA is the MOST POWERFUL military and economy in the world it stands to reason that this representative speaks for the world. Is that something like the argument presented in favor of Kosovo's independence?
So to remember all of the musings that we've all read in the past few months: Since USA supports Kosovo's independence (a support that has ignored UN charter and policy) the same could be applied to Holbrook's and Karadzic's agreement (if there was one).
Secondly, I noticed that there was some bizarre attempt to group together 'criminals', such as Milosevic, Hussien and Kim Jong Il. May we all remember that none of these figures were found guilty in an international independent court. SH was convicted in an Iraqi court that was backed by the very aggressors that have destroyed that country. Imagine if German SS judges ruled over the Nuremberg trials. I wonder how fair the world's Jewish population would have thought it was. The SH trials were just as farcical as such a hypothetical trial would have been.

Also what does he mean by "WE" when he says WE are not criminals? Is he insinuating that by saying "WE" the average Serb is not guilty? Is he, by saying, "WE" that the average Serb was somehow part and thus responsible for these crimes? Because last time I checked it was "HE" alone (not the average Serb) who is being accused. It is "HE" alone (not the average Serb) who sits on that jail cell. So since the average Serb is not being accused, and is not sitting on that jail cell, then what is this "WE" about? Is it an attempt to rationalize crimes? Is it an attempt to remove HIMSELF from responsibility of such crimes by turning them into a collective thing to be shared with the average Serb hence "HE" alone cannot be deemed responsible and pointed out from the crowd?
On one hand you have Serb officials asking for an individualized treatment of the crimes that occurred. On the other hand you have the Serbs here on B92 siding along with Karadjic despite the fact that he openly makes his actions for which he is in jail for seem to be collective (average Serb included in them) and not individual actions which he made himself and thus HE HIMSELF is responsible for. There is clearly a discrepancy in the attitudes of the Serb posters here, who on the one side want to have an individualized treatment of the crimes that have occurred and on the other side fully support Kradjic despite the fact that HE clearly thinks HIS actions were collective and not HIS alone but YOURS; hence he says WE are not criminals.

Isn't it ironic that the "defenders of international law" are actually the ones who propose destroying it.
"If" ICJ rules against Serbia it is corrupt, ICTY rules against Serbia so it is political, we need an "independent" commission.
How more independent can you get than one set up by the UN??? Nothing on this planet.
Who do you really propose, be on this "independent" commission?
If we dismissed every conviction because the guilty felt the judge was corrupt, political, or just plain unfair, we would have no need for prisons would we?
And finally was that not what the whole Yugoslavia break up was about? Those who thought laws fair to Yugoslavians should be replaced with ones that favor Serbians.
No matter how much you may want it, the UN will not be replaced by a Serbian council.

do you feel satisfied with my reply, dear banana republican?
(malcolm x, 29 December 2009 21:48)
No but it is pretty much what I expected. No answers just rhectoric.
You will find no panel as impartial unless they give the ruling you want. That my friend is not international law.

There seems to be a lot of talk about Srebrenica on this forum, time for my two cents.

Did everyone here forget about the 3000 Serb deaths prior to the massacre (aka the "genocide") by one Naser Oric, who is actually acquitted by this so called court? I would say the response was heavy handed but it was a response nonetheless. To say there was genocide would mean that the Bosniak population was systematically being eradicated. Were there only a little over 8000 Bosniaks in all of Bosnia? For this to even qualify for a genocide there would have to have been several Srebrenica type massacres in Bosnia to fulfill the systematic extermination condition. Clearly this is not the case. I will agree it's a massacre but it's nowhere near a genocide. Jews had one, Armenians had one, Bosniaks.... no way hosey.

Now let me get you guys to look at this from another angle... This whole war criminal thing. If these guys (the war criminals) we're such monsters that media makes them out to be, why weren't they dealt with Munich style?

It would be very clear to anyone who was in the region at the time that little work was getting done to catch the big fish, so why not take it in your hands? Why not organise a group of people to start your own little witch hunt (from all sides), similar to what Jews did to the surviving Nazi officers in Munich? Can anyone tell me why this did not happen? Does anyone really think it would so hard/expensive to organise this? If anyone can give me a clear answer to this then you clearly see this war criminal thing for the farce that it is.

(Berkeley, 28 December 2009 23:30)

before you start calling people "Mikael Breathnachic" and similar you should inform yourself about people who agree that there is something fishy about srebrenica being considered a "genocide" and i don't mean serbian nationalists or even serbians at all. first of all, the court that declared srebrenica a genocide is accused of being political, so asking for an independent commission is not unreasonable. second, while it is not a nice point to make it is strange that a massacre of military agded males in a small town is being put in the same category as the attempt to exterminate the european jewry during the ww2. if this is genocide can we talk about a genocide at mai lai where women and children were not spared (unlike in srebrenica)? what about sabra and shatila? to me these crimes are massacres and very cynical at that. but considering them genocides is in a way a relatvisation of genocide. what happened to jews during the ww2 was far more terrible.

now, i don't mind lowering the standards for calling something a genocide if the standard is universally applied which of course is not going to happen. and in each case i am strongly opposed to use of genocide for political purposes. but that is precisely what is happening with srebrenica. bosniak politicians call for abolition of rs because it is an entity created through genocide, they say. they also asked for reparations from serbia, but serbia was cleared of genocide charges and it was even stated that there was no proof that there was an attempt by bosnian serbs to exterminate bosnian muslims as a group. then nato bombed serbia in order to "prevent another srebrenica", they say. and it may be useful that you can attack a country in order to "prevent genocide". in sudan, for example (darfur). or anywhere else where it suits you geopolitically and you can find a regime stupid enough to allow a massacre in some village.

finally, the term "genocide" is emotionally loaded. it can become an obstacle for reconciliation in the balkans. those who profit most from the verdict of icty are nato leaders who insist on painting themselves as humanitarians. for the people of the balkans it simply means less understanding and reconciliation.

Isn't it ironic that the "defenders of international law" are actually the ones who propose destroying it.
"If" ICJ rules against Serbia it is corrupt, ICTY rules against Serbia so it is political, we need an "independent" commission.
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
you are confusing things. the un security council is not democratic since the 5 permanent members can veto any decisions, so its decisions depend on how powerful they are. they set up icty which is considered political. icj on the othe hand while not free from pressure is more indpendent. now, which of the 2 do you think declared srebrenica a genocide and which concluded that there is no proof that bosnian serbs wanted to exterminate bosnian muslims as a group and freed serbia from genocide charges. and given that these 2 decisions are contradictory can we conclude that there is a problem with one of them?

How more independent can you get than one set up by the UN??? Nothing on this planet.
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
again the security council is not independent. i'm sure supporters of the albanian cause will remember that when they say russia would have vetoed any decisions on kosov that the us would have pushed for.


Who do you really propose, be on this "independent" commission?
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
preferably local people who have no interest in seeing the people of the balkans bitterly divided.


If we dismissed every conviction because the guilty felt the judge was corrupt, political, or just plain unfair, we would have no need for prisons would we?
And finally was that not what the whole Yugoslavia break up was about?
(pss, 29 December 2009 20:00)
divide and rule. creating banana republics instead of serious countries. do you feel satisfied with my reply, dear banana republican?

No but it is pretty much what I expected. No answers just rhectoric.
(pss, 30 December 2009 00:07)
my last question was just "rhectoric", but otherwise i answered all your questions. in particular i pointed out that there is a contradiction between findings of the icj and icty. i also pointed out that it may appear strange that a massacre of military aged males in a small town is put in the same category as the holocaust. and there is nothing i like or dislike here - i am just saying that before you accuse someone of being a serbian nationalist by adding an "-ic" to their name you should inform yourself about non-nationalist criticism of the work of icty.

rhetoric is coming from you in this "discussion", not from me.

and this is not simply about the international law. it is about powerful countries doing whatever they want. international law is important since it is the only protection small countries have against big ones. powerful countries have veto in the security council, but even so, plenty of stuff they are doing is not even being discussed there because they are so powerful that noone dares to challenge them. the us had most vetos in the un since 1960's, but it never needed to veto a decision on the most brutal war they waged in this period, the vietnam war (where they committed "genocide" in many places by the logic of icty).

powerful countries often use local conflicts for their own purposes, be it americans in the balkans or russians in the caucasus. and when they "join forces" like they did in afghanistan in 1980's they are capable of destroying a country.

getting along with this program is not cool and that's my problem both with kosovo's independence and revanchism of serbia's neighbours. instead of looking to cooperate with each other peoples of the balkans are looking to the big powers to "help" them.