"ICJ can't tell countries not to recognize"

"recognitions of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral independence declaration are "a matter of sovereignty of every individual state"."

I'm no expert on international law, but aren't Un states supposed to observe and uphold the territorial integrity of other UN member states? Isn't that an interference of national sovereignty?

"But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population," said he."

Isn't this the case with all civil wars and unrests around the world?
This is not unique to Kosovo so it cannot be used for that purpose.

How many Rwandans died and how many were civilians?
How many died in Bosnia on all sides and were they also civilians?

Show me a civil war without civilians being killed and I will admit that Kosovo was unique.
Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.

I don't hold a lot of hope for this case but it did demonstrate the weakness coming from the authors of the UDI. As far as I'm concerned, their case was unconvincing and weak but why should it matter? They bombed Serbia illegally and committed crimes, their argument to bomb Iraq was unconvincing and they did so illegally again. These people don't care about law, they use it to suit their needs and throw it away when it's an obstacle.

I'm just glad Serbia has powerful and loyal friends.

Peggy,
You callit civili war, and I call it State sponsored killing. There is a huge difference,don't you think?

In other words Kosovo will stay independent and more countrys will recognize. Serbia has no chance at all and I bet even the Serbs knowes this.

To: Radoslav…”I'm no expert on international law, but aren't Un states supposed to observe and uphold the territorial integrity of other UN member states? Isn't that an interference of national sovereignty?”

You can find the answer to your question just below here.

“but in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population," said he”

"Estimate about the danger to the civilians and to the international peace and security was widely accepted. Do not forget the fact that the UN Security Council at the end of 1998 stated that the situation had deteriorated to such extent that it was endangering international peace."

Thus Kosova is a unique case, and will not portray as forerunner for others. There are many more reasons for why Kosovo should be independent, but I will settle with this one.

In a conflict people die. Civilians as well as military personell. That is no reason to grant independence to anyone. Why didn't the native americans get north america back and why hasn't the germans lost all of Germany etc etc. This case is about conveniency! It's less problematic to grant Kosovo independence than to follow international law. At least that's what those countries who recognized Kosovo first thought. Now it's just a question of pride. They knew it was wrong but won't give in because they don't want to admit they were wrong and they don't want to show any weakness.
I don't care how many countries america bribes into recognizing but there will never be real peace in Kosovo without justice!

Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.
(Peggy, 14 December 2009 12:57)
--
How right you are Peggy and far fewer died in Kosovo than in most wars throughout the world.

In 1998 Serbia was fighting ethnic Albanian terrorists and compared to say the US and NATO's "war on terrorism" we were very light handed.

Not only that, but it is well known that those terrorists were killing their own. Here is a chronology of terrorist activity - check http://balkania.tripod.com/resources/terrorism/kla_chronology_96-98.html

But as normal, the arguments coming from the "authors of the UDD" are unconvincing. Kosovo cannot move forward as long as they continue to live in their made up past.

"The court can analyze the circumstances of the proclamation of independence, it can state its opinion about those circumstances but it cannot prescribe the policy of recognition to the countries."

Yes we know that but the countries will made a decision based on what the court thinks as well.
If the court says that it was not legal to declare UDI then we won't be seeing any more recognitions.
Nobody is expecting the court to bind anyone to their decision but we are expecting governments to have a very hard time explaining why they are recognising Kosovo when the court has not given it their stamp of approval.

p2 - "Estimate about the danger to the civilians and to the international peace and security was widely accepted. Do not forget the fact that the UN Security Council at the end of 1998 stated that the situation had deteriorated to such extent that it was endangering international peace."

As for endangering international peace - what a load of rubbish - a bit like Iraq's WMD argument. A fantasy created as an excuse to invade and control Kosovo's reserves - but that's another issue.

The issue I'm interested in is Kosovo's supposed uniqueness. If we accept that regions are allowed to secede if there has been fighting between itself and the rest of the state, then so be it, BUT it should be applied globally. To claim that Kosovo is unique is plain stupid. There are numerous other examples similar to Kosovo such as the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq. They wouldn't be recognised simply because Turkey is an ally of the US. what about southern Sudan? the arabic northern sudan attacking the black african southern sudan and by UN estimates more than 1 MILLION killed and many more millions displaced. Why no interest or intervention there? maybe because China is an ally of Sudan and the US doesn't want to start a proxy war?

My point is that it's simply hypocritical to state that there are valid reasons to allow a group of people to secede from a state and then claim that Kosovo is unique when it's simple to show numerous examples which would be much more deserving than Kosovo to gain independence, but are denied it simply because they are not allied to the US. If this is what Albanians call democracy then so be it, but those who live by the sword die by it - Serbia was a US ally in both world wars, but when it suited the US and Germany to split up Yugoslavia they had no problems with that idea. In the future, when the US has had it's use for Kosovo, if there is ever any trouble with Serbia the Us cavalry won't be riding to your rescue.

The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that Kosovo will remain a powder keg which could explode at any time.

It's so humorous to listen to Slovenia and Croatia say what they are told to say. Nothing ever changes, history just repeats itself.
So Mr. Turk, what is your view on Republika Srpska or the Mitrovica pocket? :)

But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population,"
When people were killed and kicked out of their homes,their houses looted and burned,reason that this people can never rebuild and come back home,if they come there is no more chance living under the same regime who made their lives miserable,they have the right to live free just like you do,and our right were revoked just because we spoke another language and were albanians.
Accept the reality.

Pegyy

appart from the reason already mentioned during the hearing Kosovo has the strongest allies, just like Serbian during 19th and 20th century.

Of course its advisory opinion, we knew it from the very begining. Eitherway Kosovo provided the best arguments why it was necessery to declare its legal Independence and its nothing anyone can take that away, not as long as US is breathing. For everyday that goes Kosovo becomes stronger and soon will have its first professional security force with NATO-standards operational in the region.

To Kosovo-USA:

You speak of 'State sponsored killing'?

How ironic when that was exactly what the countries in Nato (that you revere) were doing against Serbia in the name of 'democracy' in 1999.

It's hard to take the high moral ground when all ladders have been burned.

If NATO had wanted to inflict terror by a mass killing of civilians, they would have bombed a bridge in Belgrade during one of the protest gatherings.
(Amer, 14 December 2009 17:04)

They did that by bombing factories, bridges, apartment blocks, refugee convoys, TV stations and other civilian targets killing innocent lives.

The imperial propaganda just wont wash any more. Nothing will or can hide that the bombing of Yugoslavia just like the invasion of Iraq was one big huge war crime.

The way I see it is this:

1) Court rules in favour of Pristina - Serbia wins as RS seceeds from BiH

2) Court delivers ambigious decision - Serbia wins as Pristina led into a legal cul de sac, i.e. final status uncertain very much like Northern Cyprus. The only way for Pristina to untangle itself from the mess is to engage with Belgrade as current situation is unsustainable in long term. Recognitions for UDD all but stopped.

3)Court declares that Pristina's UDD was secession and not in keeping with international law - Serbia wins. Recognitions halted, some withdraw forcing Pristina back to the table.

To sum it up, Belgrade has Pristina by the short and curlies.

Danilo's horse has run away from its chariot. In this case, Mr. Danilo Turk, the goods in the chariot, are what will be weighed, not the horse pulling it.

"Turk, a professor of international law, said that the issue of unilateral secession was "always disputable" and related to political tensions, and "in that sense dangerous to the world peace"."

-- Exactly the point of Serbia taking this case to the ICJ. And exactly the point raised when considering other would-be secessionist groups who will be looking at this case as a precedent for how to proceed.

"'But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population,' said he."

-- Oh please, are we still on this? 2,000 deaths during the combat, and 10,000 total deaths (including Serbs) only after NATO started the bombing. If this is the criteria that legitimizes the establishments of other states, we automatically have to reestablish Republika Srpska Krajina. We have to carve up Turkey to the point of that country extending little beyond Ankara. We might as well carve up Iraq, Rwanda, China, and Sudan too, but no one seems interested in doing that. And by that measure, Serbia should get most of Bosnia for that they suffered through during WWII. Let's not ascribe normative qualities to something as concrete as territorial secession. Let's also not forget the instigators of the 1998/1999 conflict were KLA agents, not Milosevic's forces, who were keenly aware that forcing Belgrade to retaliate would have given the pretext to call for international aid. At the risk of minimizing the tragedy of those who *did* die during the conflict, let's not smile crocodile tears knowing political leverage can be extracted over the dead.

Fair enough lets use the moral argument when deciding whether a given area has earned nation state status.

I equally expect that the US will hand back its land to Native Americans. And I expect the same from Australians.

That won't happen? Why?

Hmm, is it because the moral argument is secondary to having an overwhelming majority in a given area?

Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this...

Ironic that so many dismiss the lives lost due to the Milosevic regime.
Maybe that is why so many in the world is against the return of Kosovo to Serbian control. Kind of proves the point doesn't it.

Some try to divert this discussion again to "was Kosovo's independence justified or not". However, that is not the topic in that news. It reflects the resposibility of the court to determine this question and the answer is getting clearer and clearer: No! Bilateral recognitions cannot be set by an external court, even for the ICJ. Otherwise, the court must "order" all UN-countries to recognize each other what in numerous areas is not even close the case.

The statement from Slovenian President Danilo Turk doesn't come out of the blue, as well. ICJ President Owada himself stated that a clear statement from the ICJ cannot be expected. Responsibility along with complexity of that case are the main reasons for that. I think that even now some (in Serbia) still didn't realize the impact of that statement. Instead, they perpetuate an illusion which doesn't reflect reality nor take into account the statements from officials. However, it appears to be more and more voices which - when you put the puzzle together - shows a certain direction. The former Foreign Minister to Serbia, Goran Svilanović, already said that Serbia must know how to use the outcome of ICJ case, otherwise it might be worthless. This is another hint that the ICJ will leave a lot room for interpretation and if Serbia doesn't understand to use it for her "interpretation", it will simply lose. And this comes from a Serbian voice.

The truth is that Serbia desparately needs a clear statement. A neutral statement can be regarded as a neutralization of Serbia's demand over Kosovo. From what we can see only now, it is absolutely sure that the ICJ will not vote in favour of Serbia.

This all was and is the position of the Kosovo government and the supporters of Kosovo in the ICJ case. More and more people confirm that, especially after the statement of ICJ President Owada.

Exactly, civilians were killed and that is why Serbia must never rule Kosovo again. Serbia did nothing to avoid the war, indeed did everything to encourage it through Milosevic's policies (i.e. atonomy abolishment) which the majority of the Serbs supported.

These civilians were not killed by some kind of natural disaster, no, they were deliberate killings and expulsions by the very state they lived in.

An army against civilians, shelling and burning their houses against women and children, pizza shop massacres, entire families slaughtered, mass graves of civilians found all the way to Belgrade, all this in the heart of Europe. No that was not a civil war, it was slaughtery of the civilians.

Yes similar things happened in Bosnia, that's why Serb possitions there were bombed constantly and that's why many Western powers saw their intervention in Bosnia as too little too late. But at least the world did not want to see another Bosnia.

This is not a case of pure civil war, this was a war between two different ethnicities, in every meaning of the word, language, customs, culture etc. They were not one people, they were not one nation, and they were forced to belong to one country against their will.
(Denis, 14 December 2009 17:35)

and the Croats, Bosniaks and KLA were all saints and never committed war crimes? Serbia has over half a million refugees - Serbs, Jews, Roma, Gorani & Bosniaks who fled Kraijina and Kosmet. Can you explain that one are you so consumed by your hatred towards Serbs and Serbia in general that you are unwilling to recognise that all sides suffered in this calamatous break up of a once prospoerous socialist state that was single handedly taken apart piece by piece by the EU-NATO Imperialists because it didnt somehow fit into their imperial chess game.

Yes blame the Serbs for all your woes. I see a little ethno nationalist, irredentist rant in your final comments. Enough said.

Serbia will prevail in the end. You can bank on that my friend.

to Dim Tuc:

Yes you are correct that is every Serb were to return to their land in Kosovo they would still be a minority; however, if every Albanian immigrant or descendant of Albanian immigrants were to leave and go back to Albania this would not be the case and Serbs would be the majority. Just because you were born in Kosovo doesn't make it your land, you are still originating from ALBANIA.

Lets take a second and look at the demographic history of Kosovo, because without understanding the history of this land you can not even start to debate the independence. This is very important for us people from the West to realize before jumping to biased opinions.

1330 - 89 settlements, 2166 households

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)

*Key note Islam does not exist in Kosovo, even Albanians were christian.

1455 - Turkish tax census

13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling

1487 -
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Pristina and Vučitrn)
117 Muslim households (94 in Pristina and 83 in rural areas)

1683-1699 - The Great Turkish War between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 60-70,000 Serb refugees

1871 - census by Austrians

500,000 inhabitants, of which:

318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Roma (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks

1897 -
It is estimated that around 400,000 Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman War * Key change in demographics happen, majority switch

World Wars - 1948 *Key demographic change in majority continues

Kosovo was occupied by Italian-controlled Greater Albania, ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 to 250,000 Serbs.

inhabitants:
498,242 Albanians (68.46%)
171,911 Serbs (23.62%)
28,050 Montenegrins (3.86%)

1971 - Province gained autonomy, census controlled by Albanians

103,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have left Kosovo, mainly due to mistreatment by Albanian authorities and population

1,243,693 total inhabitants

916,168 Albanians or 73.7%
228,264 Serbs (18.4%)
31,555 Montenegrins (2.5%)

Present Day - (2002)

87% Albanians
7% Serbs
3% Muslims (Bosniaks and Gorani)
2% Roma, Ashkali and Egyptians
2% Turks

9% or less Serbs today, driven out by the KLA once known as a terrorist group similar to the Tamil Tigers, except all of a sudden the US takes different sides calls 1 a terrorist and gives a thumbs up to the other? As we all know you can't expect US to follow anything other than where is more money at.


Side note: The Ottoman Empire enforced a blood tax or Devshirme. Devshirme was the practice by which the Ottoman Empire conscripted boys from Christian families, who were taken from their families by force, converted to Islam, trained and enrolled in one of the four royal institutions: the Palace, the Scribes, the Religious and the Military.

The devºirme system humiliated non-Muslim societies controlled by the Ottomans and was resisted.

Sadly to say what all of Europe was fighting against, now the majority of Europe has switched sides for political reasons?

Of course it is hard for Slavic muslims, and Albanians to realize that their great grand parents are forced converts. The majority of them will never know their true heritage, and almost all will deny it.

The ICJ can not tell countries to recognize, but it can tell them that if they do they are going against international law.
To some countries that doesn't matter. To others it may move them to hold back on recognizing, as if they do, it basically means they are saying international law is not important.
The ICJ is useless pretty much.

Proves nothing, pss. The world, especially Eurpoe, does not like the trouble making Albanians. Serbian land is occupied by foreign forces in an attempt to appease Albanian violence. This era shall pass too, and the land (KiM) will return ti its rightful owners, the Serbs. We will be patient.

I wonder if Slovenia had part of its territory illegally taken away, would President Turk have a different perspective on geo-politics!

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!

The difference is that Serbian/FRY military and police forces targeted civilians as a means of forcing them out of their own country. The NATO attacks did kill some civilians, but they were not targets.
--
And immediately after the war, NATO and KLA terrorists targeted Serbian civilians and forced them out of the province. The same occured in 2004.

Refugees are expected during periods of war but what ethnic Albanians and NATO did happened during periods of peace.

We have no intention of rewarding war criminals and terrorists and for that reason Kosovo will never become independent.

kosovo will always be serbian!!
And for you albanians if u dont like serbia why did u come in the first place in kosovo???

By terorizing non albanians / by assimilating muslims and violently convert serbs to albanians thats what happand in the last 500 years in kosovo!

Thats why there are now 90% albanians /before WO2 50% AND IN 15TH CENTURY 0%
Think about that.

PS
Look at the country's that recongnize kosovo
USA kissers or hardcore islam country's like Saudi- Arabia!!

Based on the collaboration of the Albanians in Kosovo with the Ottomans and the Nazis and the subsequent suffering of Serbs in Kosovo communist Yugoslavia should never have given Kosovo autonomy. That would have prevented most past, present, and future problems. Let's sue Croatia for that for Tito was Croatian.

Hmm, is it because the moral argument is secondary to having an overwhelming majority in a given area?

Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this...
(bganon, 14 December 2009 13:40)

Well it kinda is. Remember you Serbs swarmed the area many centuries ago and took it over. Of course that is not something you want to be reminded of. Or why do they support Srspka independence while objecting to Kosova's?

At the end of the day it comes down to demographics and power. A Turkish friend of mine was puzzled at Kosova's UDI and asked me why did we do it when in 50 years we could have had all of Serbia based on birth rates. He did have a point.

Bganon:
“Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.”

Yes that was the message of Dayton and the recognition of “Republika Srpska” covering half of Bosnia. That was certainly a crime. That was what Milosevic/Seselj again attempted in Kosova.

It is not the case in Kosova’s UDI, because if every Serb refugee returns to Kosova, which I would like to see, it would not alter the demographic majority in even one district of the country. Ironically, the only part whose ethnic majority has been altered is Northern Mitrovica, which was majority Albanian in 1998 and entirely Serb now due to successful ethnic cleansing in 1999, giving the 3 majority districts of the north a centre. It is true that Serbs were also ethnically cleansed from southern Mitrovica, even more totally, and that remains a stain on the Albanian side, to be sure. But even if every Serb returned there, it would not alter its ethnic majority.

Thus it is not reverse ethnic cleansing in Kosova that has created a majority of people, in all but north of the Ibar, who want an independent state.

MikeC:
“and why haven't the Germans lost all of Germany etc?”

Germany lost East Prussia and other former German territory, and 14 million German civilians of eastern Europe, from what was East Prussia, plus Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia etc, were driven from their homes in one of the most horrendous revenges in history. After WWI, Hungary lost a majority of its territory, including to Serbia, and that was just for being on the wrong side. I don’t condone that, of course. But Serbia is far from unique, if you (wrongly) include Kosovar independence in the same category. Indeed, Serbia effectively gained half of Bosnia.

Indeed the arriving to an opinion might not be easy but I agree that the result will not be ambiguous. After careful readings of the ICJ transcripts it seems more likely that the opinion will be on Kosovo's favor. I might be biased as an Albanian but as far as the question presented to the ICJ, I can almost guarantee that the outcome will be pro Kosovo camp. The testimonials by Croatia and Slovenia were crucial as they precisely pinpointed the illegal removal of the autonomy the subsequent political dependency on one of the republics (serbia) and the attrocities that followed these events onto the Albanian population.
It is unjust to pretend that this was a civil war. Driving close to a million people out of their homes and country by organized military units it is NOT a civil war.
Dear Peggy if you followed the ICJ, you would have seen that such argument was never brought up by Serbia & CO. Why do you think that is? Because it is absurd.
The ICJ will be remembered as a failed move by Mr. Jeremic. Not only there isn't such international law which regulates UDIs but Serbia just opened itself up for an official lawsuit, after this opinion is issued by ICJ.
The only hope that Serbia has is Mitrovica, and surely will attempt to cause further destabilization by leaning on the pro-Kosovo ICJ opinion, but it will be another hopeless case.

'You speak of 'State sponsored killing'?

How ironic when that was exactly what the countries in Nato (that you revere) were doing against Serbia in the name of 'democracy' in 1999. '

The difference is that Serbian/FRY military and police forces targeted civilians as a means of forcing them out of their own country. The NATO attacks did kill some civilians, but they were not targets.

If NATO had wanted to inflict terror by a mass killing of civilians, they would have bombed a bridge in Belgrade during one of the protest gatherings.

Isn't this the case with all civil wars and unrests around the world?
This is not unique to Kosovo so it cannot be used for that purpose.

How many Rwandans died and how many were civilians?
How many died in Bosnia on all sides and were they also civilians?

Show me a civil war without civilians being killed and I will admit that Kosovo was unique.
Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.
(Peggy, 14 December 2009 12:57)

Exactly, civilians were killed and that is why Serbia must never rule Kosovo again. Serbia did nothing to avoid the war, indeed did everything to encourage it through Milosevic's policies (i.e. atonomy abolishment) which the majority of the Serbs supported.

These civilians were not killed by some kind of natural disaster, no, they were deliberate killings and expulsions by the very state they lived in.

An army against civilians, shelling and burning their houses against women and children, pizza shop massacres, entire families slaughtered, mass graves of civilians found all the way to Belgrade, all this in the heart of Europe. No that was not a civil war, it was slaughtery of the civilians.

Yes similar things happened in Bosnia, that's why Serb possitions there were bombed constantly and that's why many Western powers saw their intervention in Bosnia as too little too late. But at least the world did not want to see another Bosnia.

This is not a case of pure civil war, this was a war between two different ethnicities, in every meaning of the word, language, customs, culture etc. They were not one people, they were not one nation, and they were forced to belong to one country against their will.

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!
(Ratko, 14 December 2009 15:38)

Lies and fabrications????

The reality of what happend in Kosovo is wel documented.

The yellow house not that is lies and fabrications

Peggy,
You callit civili war, and I call it State sponsored killing. There is a huge difference,don't you think?
(Kosova-USA, 14 December 2009 13:44)

Yes, and You are wrong.

thank you mr Danilo Turk for telling us the truth! im very happy to see that all former yugoslav republics (south slavs) are on our side expext bosnia!

a special thanks goes to croatia and slovenia :)
(dan-ch, 14 December 2009 17:31)

In Slovenia it is mostly establishment that cares about Kosovo. People on the street are either indifferent or have strong views opposing Kosovo independence.

There is still strong pro-kosovo bias in media and politics in general, but among general populace pro-kosovo attitudes have largely evaporated.

But nobody is fooling himself that establishment in Slovenia, much less in Kosovo, is really running much of their foreign policy independently of Washington or Brussels.

So when they give their views on the subject, these seemingly independent remarks are relly public stunts to please State Department's ear.
And they help protect investments Slovenia has made in Kosovo since 1999.

Türk is just some guy who likes to get photographed. Much like Tito. His views about Kosovo carries little weight, even if it displeases a large portion of Slovenia's public, as is true for arrogant behavior of Jelko Kacin.

The fact is just not reflected in slovene media.

TimDuc:

1. Serbs consists majority o the territory of Kosovo not only in medieval - but until 19th century. Eg.:
1871:
318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Roma (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks
lived in mutesarifluk of Prizren.

2. Do You remember why and when coming Albanians who lived on the Niš territory???? Let me remind you - they coming as turkish colonists after great expulsion of Serbs in end of 17th century and continues in 18th and 19th century. Same in Kosovo.

(Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21) (Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21)

The west does not give two hoots for the 700,000 that were driven out of Kosovo. It’s all about Camp Bondsteel. The ICJ only has to remain silent on the issue of Kosovo and you don’t win and at worst that’s what will happen. You see if the ICJ makes the “wrong decision” then every little group will proclaim independence and that’s not what the west needs – it does not want to support any more financially unviable countries. The EU has had enough.

You can mark your words all you like, but you beloved US has on numerous occasions provided “State Sponsor Killings” – have a look in South America. Here is something to ponder over: during the current Copenhagen climate change discussions the US began to threaten China over carbon emissions.

China turned around and in full public view told the US that it was no longer a world power and if it did not like what China was putting forward then China can withdraw its money from the US. The US representative had his head down and not a word past his lips.

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?
(Zoti, 14 December 2009 23:19)

Please tell me how many were Albanians? Tell us about one of your rulers in that period or for that record any of your rulers up until the 11th century? Please tell us why you were using the Turkish language up until the formation of Albania or why you considered Turkey your state? Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and CHristian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbours were able? Albanians are the newest arrivals on the Balkan peninsula hence the late development of statehood and the habit of joining invading armies.

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!
(Ratko, 14 December 2009 15:38)

Over 900,000 albanians driven from their homes you call fabrications? I don't blame you Ratko because RTS did not let you see how those people were in the open in Macedonia and Albania. Why do you think they decided to go to vacation that time? Nobody demonised and demonises the serb people. Milosevic regime with state sponsored killing and deportations done in your name did good job on demonizing serbs.

I read every transcript of the hearings, and concluded the following.
All the states that were pro Serbia, were pounding the fact that Kosovo UDI was illegal, basically stating the secession is against the international law, even though there is no such a law to prohibit nor to authorize Declaration of Independence. All these states conveniently avoided to acknowledge what took place during the war, forgetting that over 700.000 people was driven out of the country, massacred, burning of homes, the killings that took place as well as confiscated all their Identity documentation, with a purpose to say later that they not from Kosova. This tells me what kind of morality these countries have when comes to human rights and recognition of a typical humanitarian tragedy. During the hearings they totally avoided to say at least something about the atrocities committed upon the defenseless Albanian population.
Where were the Serbian politicians when these inhumane acts were committed? I never noticed any anti war rally taking place in Belgrade or elsewhere in Serbia to condemn the war in Kosovo, to condemn the savage atrocities that were taking place. I understand Jeremic was not old enough to take charge against the war, but what about Tadic, and those old enough politicians that have still fresh memories about the war? The never said anything about it, did they? In contrary they were praising the killings starting from Kostunica all the way to Nikolic and others.

Anyway, mark my words that the sticking point here is the “State Sponsor Killings” thus UDI will be qualified as not against the international law.
Who lost the morality and Serbs found it?

Pegyy

appart from the reason already mentioned during the hearing Kosovo has the strongest allies, just like Serbian during 19th and 20th century.
(Olf, 14 December 2009 13:41)

So might is right??
That's something only bullies believe in.

The international community acted in the interests of human rights in 1999. Not in pursuit of your nationalism. And correcting a wrong does not mean that the consequence is to give an unfettered blank canvass to unilateral actions. Unilateral actions that will cause future disputes and worse.
(Mister, 15 December 2009 01:28)

Nobody can deny the fact that the abolishment of the status Kosova had in Jugoslavia was a forceful unilateral action from Serbia. Nobody can deny the fact that the ethnic cleansing and killing of thousands of Albanian civilians was a willful, well-planned, state-organized unilateral act from the state of Serbia.
Under such circumstance the social contract that makes a state was broken and inexistent. Under such circumstances when the last boot of the Serbian state represented by its soldiers left and the lack and existence of a social contract between Serbia and Kosova, Serbian sovereignty over Kosova ceased to exist permanently. Now the Serbian camp despite all the murders, despite all the ethnic cleansing, despite all the rape and mutilations caused by Serbia in the name of its citizens want to re-engineer a social contract that has been dead from the moment Kosova's status was unilaterally abolished by Serbia. The latest unilateral breach of this social contract was the approval of the Serbian Constitution with the state's approval to deny the right to vote for such a constitution to the Albanian population. If the Constitution is the supreme law of the land; if such a supreme law defines the social contract (Kosova's status) between Serbia and Kosova; if 95% of population was unilaterally denied the right to vote for the supreme law, to have a say in this attempt to re-engineer the social contract, then by simple deduction such unilateral actions by the state of Serbia do not apply to those who have no representation, no vote, and no say in this bad attempt at unilaterally re-engineering a social contract that at that time was inexistent. Under these circumstances, under no social contract in place and under repeated unilateral actions taken from Serbia then it is only natural for those living in Kosova to make a social contract within themselves; so independence it is.



P.S Declarations of Independence anywhere in the world 99% of the cases by its very nature are unilateral.

We would like to ask our readers not to sign their comments using names of terrorists, past or present, original spelling or transliteration.

We will not publish such comments, as they are offensive.

Regards,

B92

Your reasoning Peggy resounds through 90% of you Serbs, you think you can do what you want and still get away with it, but it does not work that way, what you did in Kosova you did do in the middle of Europe (ok a bit more to the southeast, I know ). Because of that, Kosova is now an independent state.
(p2, 15 December 2009 14:09)

You can twist everything can't you.
Listening to you, one would think that Serbs marched into KosovO, raped, killed and burned everything and everyone and then sat down and had their meal.

Who was terrorising Serbs for decades in KosovO? Who kept with intimidation and terror and finally started murdering the police there in order to provoke something resembling war only then to say that they are so innocent and got attacked for no reason?

Who killed their own? Yes, KLA killed many Albanians as well. Are you going to expoe that on are you going to chalk all the deaths to Serbs? You certainly have selective memory.

Who staged things with a little help from CIA?

With so much dishonesty, propaganda and blood on your own hands, you should start being a little less vocal.

Yes blame the Serbs for all your woes. I see a little ethno nationalist, irredentist rant in your final comments. Enough said.

Serbia will prevail in the end. You can bank on that my friend.
(Niall O'Doherty, 14 December 2009 18:27)

So lets analyze your ICJ post
If the ICJ says independence illegal than for sure Kosovo will have hard time. Maybe 15 years and than either a member of UN or will join Albania. As a NATO member dot think that militarily SERBIA can object or will object.

2) ICJ rules that UDI was legal and the case is over. Serbia realizes that they lost, extend the hand of peace (after they apologize for the murders they committed) and we all live happily ever after.

3) ICJ ruling very vague than Kosova continues to be and more recognitions to come and in 5 years member of UN. After all USA, England, France and the western powers are behind them

"Dear Peggy if you followed the ICJ, you would have seen that such argument was never brought up by Serbia & CO. Why do you think that is?"

The shameful acts purportedly in the name of Serbia was brought up - by Serbia. I have not seen the same by any other Balkan country...saints and sinners is it? Black and white? Good and bad?

"(Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21)"

The international community acted in the interests of human rights in 1999. Not in pursuit of your nationalism. And correcting a wrong does not mean that the consequence is to give an unfettered blank canvass to unilateral actions. Unilateral actions that will cause future disputes and worse.

to Dim Tuc:
1330 - 89 settlements, 2166 households
2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)
(History_Lesson, 14 December 2009 20:03)

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?

thank you mr Danilo Turk for telling us the truth! im very happy to see that all former yugoslav republics (south slavs) are on our side expext bosnia!

a special thanks goes to croatia and slovenia :)

A lame message to all of you: We (albanians and serbs) are probably the last parties on this earth that will ever be on the same page, I simply fear that we will never find common ground. And what does not finding common ground mean, I can imagine what it means for “extremist” on both sides, but what does it mean to the one that considers himself to be a well behaved and well managed and grounded person (or aren’t there any such individuals on this forum?). I think that for the well managed individual this would translate as a disaster, just the thought that you/me have/has a neighbor that hates your guts and wants to see you dead means for me a life long struggle. Now, I haven’t changed my point of view, but I think that you should change yours, because you are the ones who owe this (yes I’m for real). If you could be 100% true with yourself then I think that you would come to the same conclusion. I grow up in Kosovo I know what I am talking about. Albanians have everything to lose if Kosovo would join Serbia again, which I believe never will happened, but you have nothing to lose, but don’t look at it that way, see at it as a reconciliation and a chance to bury the hatchet, and most importantly a chance to better. In view of what has happened, I’m sorry but you cannot ask us the same. Look to the sun which (obviously) is a star close to earth or look further away and gaze on a star far away then you probably will understand how insignificant you are and if you don’t have a brain with the size of a peanut you will also understand how stupid conflicts are wherever they occur, Kosovo, Bosnia or Rwanda. The world has bigger issues. You know, I am the one who was chased out from my birthplace, I am the one who lost, actually, a lot of relatives and especially a very young cousin who was like a brother to me, if I can see the light then I hope that you can to, I’m not too optimistic though. Do not feed hate when I’m trying to bury mine, I don’t have to like you and I will not lie because I don’t like you, but I don’t have to hate you either. And not hating means I hope no more conflict, and the struggle for strengthening our economy both Kosovo’s and Serbia’s can begging and making a better live for ourselves, and most importantly a chance to show that humankind has left the Neanderthal era.

History lesson wrote:

“if every Albanian immigrant or descendant of Albanian immigrants were to leave and go back to Albania this would not be the case and Serbs would be the majority.”

Here we go again with that hoary old myth of some mass immigration from Albania to Kosova that you guys always fall back on, for which the “evidence” is about as strong as the evidence that a comet will destroy the world next year. Why not give up ion that one at least?

“Just because you were born in Kosovo doesn't make it your land, you are still originating from ALBANIA.”

No it doesn’t, I originated somewhere else in the Balkans, and just where is none of your business, and has nothing to do with the argument.

“1330
- 89 settlements, 2166 households
2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%) “

I’m not disputing this (there is loads of changed demographics all over the world since 1330, for anyone who happens to think this ancient history is important, so perhaps Kiev should go back to the Swedes, for example), but I do have a question.

My understanding is that the Ottomans only took censuses of religion, not ethnicity, always a vague concept before the modern era. I’m just wondering if here “Serbian” means Serbian Orthodox and “Albanian” means Catholic or Muslim. Just a genuine question to any historians out there.

“1897 -
It is estimated that around 400,000 Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman War * Key change in demographics happen, majority switch”

Our history master just “forgot” to mention that this occurred after the events of the late 1870s when the majority of the population – ie, Albanians – were brutally ethnically cleansed from Nis and other regions of south Serbia. Yes the cleansed Albanian refuges then did the same in return to Serbs in Kosovo, “population exchange” you might say. So I suppose if you want to swap Nis and south Serbia for Kosova, it would be equal, but probably not the best way of doing things.

“World Wars - 1948 *Key demographic change in majority continues
Kosovo was occupied by Italian-controlled Greater Albania, ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 to 250,000 Serbs.”

Oops, forgot 1912-13, conquest, brutality, massive ethnic cleansing. Forgot the 70,000 Serb colonists sent into Kosovo after 1918 from Serbia, and the expulsion of Albanians to Turkey.

Forgot that only the colonists couldn’t return after 1945.

Of course the Albanian population continued to grow faster than the Serbs for the same reasons the numbers of Irish Catholics, Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians grew faster than those of Irish protestants, Lebanese Christians and Israelis – the poor and oppressed tend to have bigger families, while Serbs could always leave the hell-hole of poverty stricken Kosova for north Serbia and Vojvodina for better living standards. The other “explanations: are the usual racist myths used against poor people the world over.

Please tell me how many were Albanians? Tell us about one of your rulers in that period or for that record any of your rulers up until the 11th century? Please tell us why you were using the Turkish language up until the formation of Albania or why you considered Turkey your state? Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and Christian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbors were able?
(Milton, 15 December 2009 00:39)

100% Albanian.
King Agron, Queen Teuta, Genthius.
We weren't using Turkish we were using Albanian. What do you think the Albanian language was invented in the XX century?
We considered Turkey our state because we were ruling it that is why we never considered Srbija our state.

In case you haven't noticed yet we don't put much emphasis on religion like you Slavs do. We have always valued our freedom more than anything else and by freedom I don't mean freedom of religion but freedom to bear arms. Some Albanians maintained their Christianity, kudos to them, but to say that our neighbors did not convert is preposterous. Aren't Bosnians Moslem converted slavs or do you have another theory about that?
And why be so proud about maintaining and Abrahamic religion like Christianity? You know it was imposed on the indigenous population just like Islam was. Oh I forgot you weren't in the Balkans when we first converted to Christianity you were roaming in the tundra so in order to be part of the "indigenous" population you had to embrace Christianity.

I'm not even gonna respond the claim "Albanians are the newest arrivals on the Balkan peninsula." But if that were true I must say kudos to us and at the rate we are taking over the peninsula if I were you I'd BE VERY AFRAID.

Ok we agree to disagree in regards to numbers. Christian family Muslim in 1400s does not mean only Serbian as you know we were christina and still are.

2) Lets say this numbers are correct so what. there were no Israelis in Israel or maybe just few in 1945 look at it today. Or Alzas in france it was german today is 100% French.


Still all u want with this is to take Moral ground and say you been here. Ok that is your way Albanians believe something else,

What is most important today you have 90% Albanian and increasing and not much u can do about this. Call it primitive but successful.

All serbia can get is North Mitrovica and that not any time soon in 20 or 30 years there will be no Serbs left there trust me when I say this.

The reason you have Serbs there is they get special Salary for staying in Kosovo. this wont last indefinitely and Albanians will move there slowly but surly.

I know for a fact there are 2 friend of mine who are selling flats in Prishtina and they are Serbs they know its gone lost.

Reality in the ground and as per some saying you will join Nato and come to Kosovo think again not possible.

I hope u join Nato then you will have to recognise before u join.

Please please nationalist here dont take moral high ground Serbia is not the financial region of Balkan its far from it. I work with Serbian gov as part of EU investment initiative I know first hand situation.

"The Vatican refused to allow priests to offer the sacraments in secret, so the Albanians had to choose, and selected Islam, probably because it freed them from the restrictions imposed by the government on non-Muslims."
(Amer, 15 December 2009 17:11)

And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?

"ICJ can't tell countries not to recognize"

That's exactly right. Malavi recognized the Independence of Kosova today:) with many more to follow.
Thank you Malavi.

Let's say the current status stays frozen for a little while...and let's say Serbia develops massively, or even joins the EU. Would you then accept Kosovo into your fold, with it's large young and mostly unemployed population?
I think someone should call this bluff...maybe for April 1.

You can twist everything can't you.
Listening to you, one would think that Serbs marched into KosovO, raped, killed and burned everything and everyone and then sat down and had their meal.
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)

I think you can twist many things as well. Well no, before the meal they had to digg some mass graves, or dump the boddies in the refregerated trucks to carry them in Serbia and leave no trail..... It is not the first time in history Serbia marches into Kosovo and does that...


"Who was terrorising Serbs for decades in KosovO? Who kept with intimidation and terror and finally started murdering the police there in order to provoke something resembling war only then to say that they are so innocent and got attacked for no reason? (Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)

K-Alb got attacked mainly for their cause, which they up till 1998 pursued in one of the most peacefull ways Balkan had ever seen. What did Serbs of Krajina and Bosnia do when they wanted to rule themselves, no they did not protest peacefully, they started to fight, and many of them commited war crimes. I don't see you ever critizising them.
Now you make it sound like K-Alb just had to rape a Serbian woman before every meal, which of course it's ridiculous, anyway yes, the conflict existed and it always have with both sided abusing each other when they had a chance, but of course it was not escalated to the point of war, and could have been controled with a bit of cooperation between Serb and Albanian authorities. Instead you rolled in the army to kill one side. Very bright, and responsible.

"Who killed their own? Yes, KLA killed many Albanians as well. Are you going to expoe that on are you going to chalk all the deaths to Serbs? You certainly have selective memory.(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)"

KLA killed both sides when necessary, of course. But the KLA was a guerrilla force, formally not a representative of the K-Alb people until they started making a point, which was that only through war you can talk some sense with Serbia. The KLA was a forced choice for K-Alb, and not their first one, Rugova was, but you ignored him casue Serbia was hardly waiting to cleanse the K-Alb, and KLA was the best chance they got.

The Serbian army apprently did not go in to eliminate only the KLA, but it went in to cleanse and murder K-Alb en masse, most of the victimes were innocent civilians which were not spared from Serbian guns.

Johny, Please read my comment again. I never said or implied what you claim.

I was answering a comment from someone else who said that Albanians had to convert to Islam because Catholic priests did not have authority from Vatican to perform a mass in secret.

All I said is that for firm Catholics they were prepared to renounce Christ altogether in order to worship someone else. Well, not exact words but same meaning. So where do you get this one religion is better than the other rubbish?

Please point out any sentence in my reply which has that meaning.

Until you can do that, please do not distort what I say.

Of course it is hard for Slavic muslims, and Albanians to realize that their great grand parents are forced converts. The majority of them will never know their true heritage, and almost all will deny it.
(History_Lesson, 14 December 2009 20:03)

First, your fact are as true as you believe them to be, I can bring you here numbers that support the other side almost 100%, of course if B92 posts them, cause they usually don't.


As an Albanian non-practicing muslim, I say loud and clear that islam has been one of the worse calamities of my nation, and in fact all of the Balkans. I am not the only Albanian muslim that says so, and only in Albania the intellectual elite with muslim names is openly anti-islam, headed by Ismail Kadare the world renouned Albanian writer.

So no it is not hard at all for Albanians to see the historical truth in it, as we still honor 2 christians Scandeberg and Mother Teresa as the most distinguished Albanians in history. The problem is that Serb left them no choice but to ally with Ottomans in the name of survival.

Albanians used islam as a means of survival to offset the nationalistic pressures from Serbia in north and Greece in south. In fact the Albanians converted to islam en masse, when nationalism of their 2 neigbors was taking ground.

So i would disagree with you. But we all know this was not about islam, or christianity, it is all about land and identity, as every other conflict in the Balkans. Many of these nations run away from Yugoslavia fearing that Serbian shovinism will deny them the vital things of a nation, statehood, territory and identity.....

..... and for what I see here from some of the comments, their worries are justified.

I can´t help it, but...I am so extremely bored by this endless reiterations about how Serbs were the majority in the middle ages and so on...

guys, that´s a historical fact, yes, but we simply do not need to mention that each and every time, since everyone who is interested in this issue will automatically find these informations in serious historical libraries, books, databases etc.
( don´t expect our dear albanian friends here to do that - you´re only wasting your time with that intention )

I would ask my serb friends here not fall for cheap teenage-albanian propaganda:

every albanian remark about being "the poeple of kosovah" is born out of sheer despair - they have no other arguments, or to be precise, they have no arguments at all.

the only thing they have is the use of force, of brutal and illegal force, and not even by their own hand, since they are to weak as we all know, no, brutal force by foreign powers who want their own interests to be excercised in southern Serbia.

and one more thing: don´t fall for those alleged " albanians" who are writing here under western or scandinavian or romanian ore whatever names, that´s another indicator of not being right, the need of faking identities in order to paint a scenery of international support for the albanian cause - that´s rubbish, as you all should know.

do not react on their provocations, since what they want is simply to provoke aggressive serbian response, in order to show others how bad and aggressive "the Serbs" are... keep in mind that the average American, Romanian or Scandinavian is on our side, on the serbian side, the side of the law and truth.

last but not least, in regard to the remarks of Mr.Turk:

we have all seen how "independend" Slovenia is acting on the international scene when it comes to southern Serbia, just remember how they have been told WHEN and HOW to "recognise" the stillborn puppet-freak-creation on serbian soil.

the bottom-line is: the ICJ-opinion is indeed just an opinion, a non-binding opinion also, ..but, don´t fool yourselves my friends, it´s an influential opinion despite the words of Mr.Turk who is not speaking as a sovereign representant of the slovenian nation.

p2 -

"Your argument that the conflict in Kosova was not endangering international peace is ignorant, for it did. The conflict threatened to spread to Montenegro, Macedonia....." Why do these examples threaten international peace? Because in every case it would be Albanian nationalists trying to carve out part of an existing country to create a Greater Albania. So it wasn't Serbia destabilising the region but the Albanians.

"Have you forgotten that there were 50 000 soldiers ready to invade Kosovo and Serbia on the border" If you live in the West like I do then you'd know that there was never going to be any invasion of Kosovo after what happened to US troops in Somalia. The reason Serbia capitulated is that the US threatened to bomb Serbia to the stone age.

"and the Iraqi war did not threatened to spread to neighboring countries, not to the same extent as the Kosova conflict did." As stated above, this would have been a danger only because of Albanian nationalists trying to cause trouble. No other country in the region would have got involved. But this idea that there would be trouble in the region is total rubbish, because your masters, the US, who claimedthis would happen also controlled the people who might make it happen, i.e. the albanians. So this idea/argument, about the war spreading, has no merit whatsoever.

"but I support and wish all the vulnerable a better life and the right to self-government if they so wish." If this is what you believe then don't try to claim northern Kosovo - it's Serbian, simple.

"You managed to conquer and annex Kosovo" Serbs never "conquered" Kosovo. It has always been Serbian. It was before the Ottomans invaded, and when they were driven out of the Balkans we claimed it back, RIGHTFULLY. It's never been Albanian which is why there is NO albnain history in Kosovo. Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants, Serbs are the native people of Kosovo.

"U.S. has admitted the violation of rights of their indigenous population, Australia has also apologized to their indigenous population, and even Spain has stopped bombarding innocent people" This is because they killed 95% of their native populations when they conquered their lands. You conveniently forget to write that even though these countries apologise for what they have done, their courts and their govts don't allow the indigenous population to keep their OWN land.

And as for the comparison you albanians are always making about Albanian allies being democracies and Serbia's being dictatorships, explain this: The US,UK,Germany,France, etc are all "wonderful democracies who uphold the rule of law and maintain freedom and peace". Yet these same countries invade MORE countries than anyone else in the world - and illegally - like Iraq. And if you don't believe me, point your satellite dish to UK tv and you'll see the inquiry in the UK. EVERYONE knows it was ILLEGAL, yet everyone knows that "might is right".

And as for upholding international law, explain palestine and Israel. There is still an outstanding UN resolution demanding Israel move back to it's 1967 borders. Does the US make Israel do it, does France, Germany, the UK? No. So Albanian claims that their allies are true, free democracies upholding freedoms for peoples is just rubbish. The US and EU are EXACTLY the same as Russia and China, and everyone in the world knows it. I can keep telling everyone i am a millionaire, but in reality i'm not. I'm lying to myself and everyone else i tell!! no different from the US, EU and "democracy and freedom".

But this is the best bit. "And that’s why you are FORCED to hand over the land to the Kosovars." Serbia was forced to hand over Kosovo because kosovo is strategically important to the US for Bondsteel and Trepca. NO other reason. If it was for the reasons you state, and the US was such a beacon of democracy then it would have intervened in Sudan/Darfur, Rwanda, etc...

The reality is that countries only invade to take something they want. The US invaded Iraq for it's oil, Afghanistan for it's resources and Kosovo for it's coal.

Admit that Kosovo is simply an Albanian nationalist agenda to make a Greater Albania - you might as well admit it because your leader effectively did (Thaci) when he said that you'd waited 100 years for this - so it wasn't Milosevic that the problem, it was Serbian control in general that was the problem.

you can argue and argue and argue but any objective observer will see Kosovo as another Iraq case for the US - taking resources.

Denis, I say the same to you as I do to Johny.
What have I twisted. Please refer me to a sentence which I have twisted your or someone else's words.

'Owada himself stated that a clear statement from the ICJ cannot be expected.'

I'd really like to know exactly what he said in the language he said it in. The only record I could find on the web of Owada's statement was the Russian simultaneous interpretation of the session, where his statement used the word "однозначный," which can be translated as "simple": the opinion won't be "a simple yes or no, for or against." It sounds like he's expecting either a "yes, and for the following reasons" or "no, and for the following reasons," which would account for the reference to 30 pages. Countries may pick and choose which of the reasons they find compelling, but to me it sounds like the opinion itself won't be ambiguous - just not "simple."

'Refugees are expected during periods of war but what ethnic Albanians and NATO did happened during periods of peace. '

1999 was a "post-conflict situation" when a certain amount of rough justice can be expected.KFOR should have done a better job in 2004, granted, but still, only three Serbs died. "Only" and "died" should not be used in the same sentence, but how often has the number of Albanians killed in 1998-1999 been trivialized here? And that was considerably more than 3.

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?


History lesson Conveniently left that out.

let me refresh your memory which u selectivly left out.

The balkans were Slav free and Dardania was under the Roman province of Illyria/Illyricum.

History tells us that empires have risen and fallen, surely Serbia is no exeption.

Long live the Independept Republic of Dardania.

"countries will made a decision based on what the court thinks as well. If the court says that it was not legal to declare UDI then we won't be seeing any more recognitions. Nobody is expecting the court to bind anyone to their decision but we are expecting governments to have a very hard time explaining why they are recognising Kosovo when the court has not given it their stamp of approval"
Because the court is not in the business of giving the stamp of approval because it is not what Serbia asked in the question sent to the court. The question the Court has to answer is “Is the unilateral declaration of independence […]in accordance with international law?”. Even if the UDI was illegal, that does not mean that Kosovo today is not a state. The statehood of an entity is matter of fact, not a matter law. Something is considered a state if:
- It occupies a defined territory
- Has effective control over the extent of such territory
- Is in possession of a permanent population.
- Is able to engage in international relations (for example is able to fulfill treaty obligations)
So, I’m not really sure what Serbia wants to achieve with all of this. Even if the decision is 100% in Serbia’s favor that does not affect whether Kosovo today is a state or not; the above mentioned four FACTUAL criteria determine it. Every state then decides for itself if these four criteria are satisfied in the case of Kosovo and recognizes or not accordingly.
Guys remember that declarations of independence are by definition illegal under domestic law because threaten a country’s constitutional order. But that does not mean anything. The declaration of independence of US in 1776 was obviously illegal but still US became a state because fulfilled the criteria above and was recognized to have done so by other states.

"Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this..."
(bganon, 14 December 2009 13:40)

The message is whatever you will want it to be. The message is in the ears of the listeners. Serbs will want to hear the message differently from the Albanians, the Albanians differently from Serbs. The Spanish will want to hear a different message, and ETA an even different one, I guess. Everybody according to their own interests. Nothing new...So, if you want/like to hear that it was about gaining territory through fighting, you're welcome...but it is not correct, it was not about territory...

You guys don’t understand that if Serbia does not recognize you then nothing happens – no investment (I don’t know who would want to invest anyway), no jobs, nothing. Both China and Russia will never allow you into the UN so you are in limbo; a region recognized by 50/60 countries but have no rights apart from that. Why does not you powerful US friend do something to help you – apart from the fact that they are in trouble, they are only interested in Camp Bondsteel and that’s looking very dodgy too. There can be 1000% Albanians in Kosovo, but you will not move an inch forward.
All Serbia has to do is wait and the Albanians can “wither on the vine” or leave. We have waited for 400 hundred years so to get rid of the Ottomans so we can wait another 20 or 30 years, but we will not let the Kosovo go anywhere.
When it’s a question of national identity people like your “two Serb friends” are never asked. This is much bigger than two or three people.
NATO will never see Serbs, but your Albanian brothers can die in Afghanistan if they like. You still can’t see it; all Albanians talk about is NATO this or that, so why doesn’t NATO help you? Why doesn’t NATO force their members to invest or open factories in Kosovo?? Why doesn’t NATO force Serbia to recognize Kosovo??? The answers are not very nice for the Albanians.
Let’s get this straight and I hope it get through some thick heads here. Serbia is only now starting to emerge out of the worst part of its difficulties, after sanctions, the toughest in the world at one stage, being attached by NATO and now the world economic crises, but it has not done too badly. Serbia is earmarked to be the financial centre for the Balkans, you may not want to hear about this, but this is true and this will happen in the next decade, not now.

sj,

Serbia will be much smaller in ten years, therefore, your argument is not valid that Serbia will be the center of Finance for the Balkans. Most likely it will be Slovenia, the Switzerland of the Balkans. Europe has more faith in Slovenia because it is more stable politically than the rest of the Balkans. I know you hate to hear this, but it's true. Serbia has too much of a bad reputation, in many ways, to be considered the leader of anything. This dream of yours is not possible for at least another fifty years. Serbia has lost the trust of Europe because of its disastrous wars of the 1990's.

Peggy: Yes it happened in Rwanda. But what happened in Kosovo took place in Europe where the "free leaders" of Europe could not sit blindly and watch while people were slaughtered. European leaders had to "put their money where their mouth is" to explain what I mean clearly, the European leaders had to live up to democracy and freedom, which they advocate.

In the case of Rwanda as the unfortunate happened, unfortunately happend in Africa, and the reason why not the Government of Rwanda got a slap on the wrist is completely to blame the African countries which do not share the democratic world ideology. And it is precisely those countries that who are supporting Serbia, these countries are not interested in freedom and not oppressing their minorities. Face the truth and admit to yourself, the only countries that are on your side (which unfortunately are many) are countries that ruthlessly harass their minority populations.

And Peggy in Bosnia there were many more bosnianmuslims in comparison with Serbs that lost their lives, do not try to make it sound like something equal, the result of that war was of course an independent Bosnia, albeit a bit handicapped because of the RS, if you ask me.

Your reasoning Peggy resounds through 90% of you Serbs, you think you can do what you want and still get away with it, but it does not work that way, what you did in Kosova you did do in the middle of Europe (ok a bit more to the southeast, I know ). Because of that, Kosova is now an independent state.

Radoslav, you are firm on your belief and there is no point for me to try changing your mind, mainly because I can’t, again some of the things you wrote I actually agree with, some I don’t agree with. But where does all this leave us, hate more hate and hate again, because at this point I’m just as firm on my belief as you are. Ok I will tech my son to hate you, and you can tech your son to hate me, and this travesty can keep on forever. BUT no I won’t tech my son hate, because I’m going to live FREE in my fairytale country as most of you put it and on the world map that I am going to have on my wall there will be a black gap where Serbia resides, and I will learn my son that that is a big lake called “The big lake” and I will not tech my son hate, I will spare him that, I leave that to you because you are better at it.

i guess this is where the truth commision comes in, give you guys a reality check. Seriously if what you are saying no one would invest in kosova then by being part of serbia if not a republic then autonomy, would serbia invest in kosova and why when you guys wanted to obliterate the landscape of all the albanians from there home homeland, what proof if any by the proposal serbia offered could even hint "less than independence more than autonomy" what is that telling you. kosova belongs to the people of kosova weather you like it or not, although unemployment maybe high, the albanian disporia continually send money back to kosova and acctually have a better standard of living than serbia and why would they compromise that to be with the beast that tried to obliterate them

Now, now, enough of excuses and just admit that majority of Albanians were ready to sell their souls in order to survive. That's what abandoning Christ is to a Christian.
(Peggy, 16 December 2009 21:16)

What a joke. Who are you kidding with this nonsense?

The soul of Albanians was not Christianity, nor was our identity defined by some religion of whatever kind.
Albanians embraced islam to survive, and what is more noble and sacred than preserving yourself? Should have they remained christians and disappear?

The oldest boddy of laws in Albania, The Kanun, has a first chapter called "The Church", even though it is a medival boddy of laws, and it does respect the church, in no way or form it allows it to interfere in the everyday life of the Albanians. This is 1400s we are talking about, where everywhere in Europe the church regulated, interferred and governed every aspect of life. Religion never played a central role in our lives to be something we would give our soul to, or have no soul in absence of. If that's not the case for you, that's fine, I respect that, but please have some integrity and respect the others. The world and human sould does not revolve around orthodoxy, just a hint for you.

This is the same as me saying that without Orthodoxy Serbian soul, and identity would not exist or would be meaningless.

Come on, give me a break, and stop putting down other nationalities, and you wonder why we want out from Serbia?

"Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and CHristian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbours were able?

(Milton, 15 December 2009 00:39)"

The rift between the Western and the Eastern Churches was as bitter as that between Christianity and Islam. (Remember how the Crusaders sacked Byzantium on the way to Jerusalem?) The Serbs had their priests with them, and could train new priests, but the Albanians were Catholics, and had to depend on the Vatican to send out priests, who encountered hostility from the Orthodox hierarchy and the humiliating restrictions of dhimmitude from the Muslim government. Eventually it became impossible to find Catholic priests to perform what were the absolutely essential services of life in those days - christenings, marriages, funeral masses and the like. The Vatican refused to allow priests to offer the sacraments in secret, so the Albanians had to choose, and selected Islam, probably because it freed them from the restrictions imposed by the government on non-Muslims.

And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:40)

Since when did religion determine good qualities in people? Since when it became the determining factor of honesty? Since when loyalty to one religion makes one set of people better than the other? Last time I checked religion was responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people. Last time I checked Christianity was responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people. Last time I checked Islam was responsible for the death and punishment of millions of people. Last time I checked Serbs were pagans before becoming Christian. On what basis then is one form of conversion better than another? One what basis does one form of conversion make a set of people better than another? Especially having in mind that religion has caused more wars, more deaths and suffering than most diseases and any other human phenomena and beliefs combined. One what basis is being a firm believer to any religious dogma a quality that determines the good; while believing another religious dogma it determines the bad? Who are the people responsible in making the decision for all humanity that religion is good? Who are the people that make the decision for the rest of humanity that one specific religious dogma is better than the other and that following a specific dogma makes you good, honest, and better while following another dogma makes you bad, dishonest and worse? Who are the people who made the decision for the rest of humanity where conversion or non-belief are bad, while blind following to a specific religious dogma is the characteristic of only good people?

Serbia is earmarked to be the financial centre for the Balkans, you may not want to hear about this, but this is true and this will happen in the next decade, not now.
(sj, 16 December 2009 09:31)

Ok. I keep hearing this from the Serbian posters here every single day. Yet I don't see any reasons from them why that will be true. Why for example Greece, Slovenia, or Croatia for that matter will not be the financial center of the Balkans but Serbia will? What are the reasons for that? As far as I know they are better positioned than Serbia both geographically and politically. Slovenia and Greece are also better positioned economically. So what are some of the reasons why these countries will not be the Balkans financial center but Serbia will? I mean there must be some specific reasons for all of you to be so sure and believe it because you trumpet it every single day as if this was already true. Yet you repeat the same slogan but give no reasons why? Anyone care to give reasons?

Radoslav: Your argument that the conflict in Kosova was not endangering international peace is ignorant, for it did. The conflict threatened to spread to Montenegro, Macedonia (which it did), and P-valley, including Bosnia began to hawk. In view of this the world's giants stood against each other, the United States on one side which supported Kosova and your mother Russia and even China on the Serbian side. Have you forgotten that there were 50 000 soldiers ready to invade Kosovo and Serbia on the border, you seem to have forgotten it, your salvation from this was that you signed the 1244. And Iraq as you mention, if all the Arab countries had been standing behind Iraq that conflict had been endangering to international peace to, but no Arabs are united, and the Iraqi war did not threatened to spread to neighboring countries, not to the same extent as the Kosova conflict did. Do not make false comparison.

One thing I do agree with you about is that the right to govern itself should apply globally, but try to get through this change, it cannot be done, and right now my country is my priority, but I support and wish all the vulnerable a better life and the right to self-government if they so wish.

The point you all miss, is: through history, people have fought wars to conquer land, there is no questioning it, we have to accept that and even label it as “ok”. You managed to conquer and annex Kosovo, and isuppose that would be ok, but it's year 2009, your behavior can not simply be regarded as ok at this time we are in. U.S. has admitted the violation of rights of their indigenous population, Australia has also apologized to their indigenous population, and even Spain has stopped bombarding innocent people, but Serbia has not done any of this. Serbia is doing the contrary, denying that it is guilty of anything, and that’s not right. And that’s why you are FORCED to hand over the land to the Kosovars.

There are Christians and then there are Albanians. There are Muslims then there are Albanians. I will talk about myself here as the representative of the average Albanian (I think I'm pretty average). I am of Christian background (both Catholic and Orthodox). I also am of Muslim background. Whatever this might mean. I am supposed to be both but I am none. I am Albanian. I am not a Christian, I am not a Muslim. I am Albanian. My soul does not depend on a priest or on a mullah and it certainly does not depend whether or not I believe in fairy tales of speaking serpents and speaking bushes. I will turn into a Budhist on the spot if that means preserving my people, my culture, my nationality. Do you know why? Because religion does not make me. Religion is not who I am. Religion does not define me in any way or shape. What defines me is the language I speak; the customs I follow, traditions, nationality. That is what makes me and my people different from the rest of the world. That is the average Albanian for you.
Now a devout follower of the religious doctrines has a problem with that kind of reasoning, or even one who is not devout but just blindly follows such doctrines without questioning. To such a person that kind of reasoning not only is incomprehensible but more importantly it is sacrilegious and heretic. There lies the difficulty in understanding such concepts.
By the way, that is not to say I don't believe in God or that most Albanians don't believe in God. Some do some don't. Its just that we see a separation between God and religion. Through experience we have come to learn that religion being man-made is flawed. It being flawed has most times worked against us, in terms of nationality then for us. At times its been introduced to weaken us as a people.( I'd be glad to give you concrete examples). From this comes everything that I stated about myself as the average Albanian earlier.

Proves nothing, pss. The world, especially Eurpoe, does not like the trouble making Albanians. Serbian land is occupied by foreign forces in an attempt to appease Albanian violence. This era shall pass too, and the land (KiM) will return ti its rightful owners, the Serbs. We will be patient.
(quasistate,
Your post makes absolutely no sense. 1st you say that everyone hates the Albanians especially Europe, then you say they occupy Kosovo to appease Albanian violence.
If Europe was so against the Albanians they would be backing Serbia (whom I guess you think they love) instead of being committed to making Kosovo free from Serbia permanently.
As I have said many times, one only has to read the comments here to understand the support for an independent Kosovo!

Islam does not demand that converts renounce Christ - he remains a highly respected figure in Islam. (The same goes for Christian saints and other Biblical personages.) Muslims do not "worship" Muhammad - he is God's (last) prophet, it is only God who is worshiped.

You should also remember that in the Middle Ages, religion was not solely a matter of personal belief - it was necessary to be married by some official religious body, for example, for your children not to be treated as bastards, with all that meant for inheritance, for example. Islam could seem a very sensible alternative, with no Catholic priests available.
(Amer, 16 December 2009 18:00)

Wow, what rubbish. Do you actually belive all this?

No Christian would abandon Christ just because they had trouble getting priests. There were Orthodox priests there. Isn't onether denomination of Christianity preferable to renouncing Christ? Yes, you do have to renounce Christs. You can no longer cross yourslef and admit that Christ is a son of God. You cannot worship in a Church and follow Christ's teachings. In which way have no not renounced Christs as a son of God then?

Explain to me than, how come so many Albanians have remained either Catholic or Orthodox if things were that bad. How did they remain faithful to their religion? By admitting that their children were illigitimate?

Now, now, enough of excuses and just admit that majority of Albanians were ready to sell their souls in order to survive. That's what abandoning Christ is to a Christian.

johny,

Top notch posts! Couldn't put it better myself.

johny,

Top notch posts! Couldn't put it better myself.
(Jetoni, US, 16 December 2009 04:51)

Totally agree that you couldnt've put it better. Not that Johny's comments make much sense.

'Isn't onether denomination of Christianity preferable to renouncing Christ?'

Apparently not. They divided the Christian world in half over the distinctions that seem negligible to you.

All I said is that for firm Catholics they were prepared to renounce Christ altogether in order to worship someone else.

(Peggy, 16 December 2009 01:53)

Islam does not demand that converts renounce Christ - he remains a highly respected figure in Islam. (The same goes for Christian saints and other Biblical personages.) Muslims do not "worship" Muhammad - he is God's (last) prophet, it is only God who is worshiped.

You should also remember that in the Middle Ages, religion was not solely a matter of personal belief - it was necessary to be married by some official religious body, for example, for your children not to be treated as bastards, with all that meant for inheritance, for example. Islam could seem a very sensible alternative, with no Catholic priests available.

'And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:40) '

Protestants can do this, but Catholics require the presence of a consecrated priest. You have to remember that this was at a time when people believed their eternal souls were at stake. (There were crypto-Christians, for a number of centuries, when a Catholic priest could be induced to serve a mass at private homes. It may have been that the Vatican was more interested in martyrs than assisting people to keep their religion in private.)

That's exactly right. Malavi recognized the Independence of Kosova today:) with many more to follow.
Thank you Malavi.
(Nelli_Canada, 16 December 2009 20:36)

Nelli - I waiting for time when Malavi recognize independent Quebec. I think - You will be also very happy at this time ;)

Nelli - I waiting for time when Malavi recognize independent Quebec. I think - You will be also very happy at this time ;)
(Milan, 17 December 2009 14:51)



Independent Quebec???

I live in Canada and last time i checked the people of Quebec voted in a referendum not to separate from Canada.

Compare the rights that Quebecers enjoys in Canada to that of the K-Alb when they were under serbia.
They are oposite like night and day.

Independent Quebec???

I live in Canada and last time i checked the people of Quebec voted in a referendum not to separate from Canada.

Compare the rights that Quebecers enjoys in Canada to that of the K-Alb when they were under serbia.
They are oposite like night and day.
(Skiff, 18 December 2009 03:18)
And do You remember that 49,42% of Quebec populiation votes "Yes"?? About half of Quebec population (more than 2,3 million peoples!!) don't like to live in one country with Canada - more than Albanians lived in Kosovo. Only becouse votes of immigrants and natives - Quebec is still part of Canada.

And do You remember that 49,42% of Quebec populiation votes "Yes"?? About half of Quebec population (more than 2,3 million peoples!!) don't like to live in one country with Canada - more than Albanians lived in Kosovo. Only becouse votes of immigrants and natives - Quebec is still part of Canada.


Yes i know the vote was close but it would not be wise for Quebec to separate, Quebec can only manintain its fullest potential in the Canadian Federation, However if another referendum were to take place and Quebecers actually voted to separate, Canada will surely respect the will of the people of Quebece wether they like it or not.

The Quebecers get their equal share of representation,

government documents, schools across canada practise french and even food labels have English and French writtin < these are just a few examples,



Kosova got its autonomy illegaly revoked, Milosevic also shut down albanian run radios, Tv stations schools were no longer taught in Albaninan ect.....

wheres the Albanian Rep?
on top of that around 800,000 Albanians fled to neighbouring countries because of the regime of Milosevic applied towards Albanians.

I honestly believe that if Milosevic acutally treated Albanians, Croats, Bosnians fairly just like Canada's relationship with Quebec than Jugoslavia might have been preserved, Montenegro for surely would still be in union if the wars in the 90's never would have happend.

All because of Milosevic's/ Nationalist dream to create a greater Serbia and the because he tried to deny the will of others to become independent.

Kosova got its autonomy illegaly revoked, Milosevic also shut down albanian run radios, Tv stations schools were no longer taught in Albaninan ect.....

wheres the Albanian Rep?
on top of that around 800,000 Albanians fled to neighbouring countries because of the regime of Milosevic applied towards Albanians.

I honestly believe that if Milosevic acutally treated Albanians, Croats, Bosnians fairly just like Canada's relationship with Quebec than Jugoslavia might have been preserved, Montenegro for surely would still be in union if the wars in the 90's never would have happend.

All because of Milosevic's/ Nationalist dream to create a greater Serbia and the because he tried to deny the will of others to become independent.
(Skiff, 19 December 2009 02:04)

Skiff:
1. In 1989 autonomy of Kosovo wasn't revoke, but back to the situation before 1974. From 1990 until 1999 still existed Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.
2. After 1974 albanian authorities of Kosovo can ignore authorities of Serbia, beecouse 1974 constitutiuon gave them veto right.
3. From 1980 in Kosovo started antiserbian mobs (eg. burning of Patriarchate of Peć, attacks against K-Serbs etc.). In province was chaos and local albanian government doing nothing.
4. When these thousands of Albanians started to escape?? When albanian KLA organization started war against Serbia and NATO started airstrikes (hundreds of Albanians were killed by KLA, other hundreds by NATO bombs).
5. Do You remember how many thousands of Kurds were killed by Saddam Hussein?? So why USA defend Iraq integrity????

In other words Kosovo will stay independent and more countrys will recognize. Serbia has no chance at all and I bet even the Serbs knowes this.

To: Radoslav…”I'm no expert on international law, but aren't Un states supposed to observe and uphold the territorial integrity of other UN member states? Isn't that an interference of national sovereignty?”

You can find the answer to your question just below here.

“but in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population," said he”

"Estimate about the danger to the civilians and to the international peace and security was widely accepted. Do not forget the fact that the UN Security Council at the end of 1998 stated that the situation had deteriorated to such extent that it was endangering international peace."

Thus Kosova is a unique case, and will not portray as forerunner for others. There are many more reasons for why Kosovo should be independent, but I will settle with this one.

Peggy,
You callit civili war, and I call it State sponsored killing. There is a huge difference,don't you think?

"recognitions of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral independence declaration are "a matter of sovereignty of every individual state"."

I'm no expert on international law, but aren't Un states supposed to observe and uphold the territorial integrity of other UN member states? Isn't that an interference of national sovereignty?

But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population,"
When people were killed and kicked out of their homes,their houses looted and burned,reason that this people can never rebuild and come back home,if they come there is no more chance living under the same regime who made their lives miserable,they have the right to live free just like you do,and our right were revoked just because we spoke another language and were albanians.
Accept the reality.

Pegyy

appart from the reason already mentioned during the hearing Kosovo has the strongest allies, just like Serbian during 19th and 20th century.

I don't hold a lot of hope for this case but it did demonstrate the weakness coming from the authors of the UDI. As far as I'm concerned, their case was unconvincing and weak but why should it matter? They bombed Serbia illegally and committed crimes, their argument to bomb Iraq was unconvincing and they did so illegally again. These people don't care about law, they use it to suit their needs and throw it away when it's an obstacle.

I'm just glad Serbia has powerful and loyal friends.

"But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population," said he."

Isn't this the case with all civil wars and unrests around the world?
This is not unique to Kosovo so it cannot be used for that purpose.

How many Rwandans died and how many were civilians?
How many died in Bosnia on all sides and were they also civilians?

Show me a civil war without civilians being killed and I will admit that Kosovo was unique.
Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.

Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.
(Peggy, 14 December 2009 12:57)
--
How right you are Peggy and far fewer died in Kosovo than in most wars throughout the world.

In 1998 Serbia was fighting ethnic Albanian terrorists and compared to say the US and NATO's "war on terrorism" we were very light handed.

Not only that, but it is well known that those terrorists were killing their own. Here is a chronology of terrorist activity - check http://balkania.tripod.com/resources/terrorism/kla_chronology_96-98.html

But as normal, the arguments coming from the "authors of the UDD" are unconvincing. Kosovo cannot move forward as long as they continue to live in their made up past.

Of course its advisory opinion, we knew it from the very begining. Eitherway Kosovo provided the best arguments why it was necessery to declare its legal Independence and its nothing anyone can take that away, not as long as US is breathing. For everyday that goes Kosovo becomes stronger and soon will have its first professional security force with NATO-standards operational in the region.

To Kosovo-USA:

You speak of 'State sponsored killing'?

How ironic when that was exactly what the countries in Nato (that you revere) were doing against Serbia in the name of 'democracy' in 1999.

It's hard to take the high moral ground when all ladders have been burned.

Some try to divert this discussion again to "was Kosovo's independence justified or not". However, that is not the topic in that news. It reflects the resposibility of the court to determine this question and the answer is getting clearer and clearer: No! Bilateral recognitions cannot be set by an external court, even for the ICJ. Otherwise, the court must "order" all UN-countries to recognize each other what in numerous areas is not even close the case.

The statement from Slovenian President Danilo Turk doesn't come out of the blue, as well. ICJ President Owada himself stated that a clear statement from the ICJ cannot be expected. Responsibility along with complexity of that case are the main reasons for that. I think that even now some (in Serbia) still didn't realize the impact of that statement. Instead, they perpetuate an illusion which doesn't reflect reality nor take into account the statements from officials. However, it appears to be more and more voices which - when you put the puzzle together - shows a certain direction. The former Foreign Minister to Serbia, Goran Svilanović, already said that Serbia must know how to use the outcome of ICJ case, otherwise it might be worthless. This is another hint that the ICJ will leave a lot room for interpretation and if Serbia doesn't understand to use it for her "interpretation", it will simply lose. And this comes from a Serbian voice.

The truth is that Serbia desparately needs a clear statement. A neutral statement can be regarded as a neutralization of Serbia's demand over Kosovo. From what we can see only now, it is absolutely sure that the ICJ will not vote in favour of Serbia.

This all was and is the position of the Kosovo government and the supporters of Kosovo in the ICJ case. More and more people confirm that, especially after the statement of ICJ President Owada.

thank you mr Danilo Turk for telling us the truth! im very happy to see that all former yugoslav republics (south slavs) are on our side expext bosnia!

a special thanks goes to croatia and slovenia :)

In a conflict people die. Civilians as well as military personell. That is no reason to grant independence to anyone. Why didn't the native americans get north america back and why hasn't the germans lost all of Germany etc etc. This case is about conveniency! It's less problematic to grant Kosovo independence than to follow international law. At least that's what those countries who recognized Kosovo first thought. Now it's just a question of pride. They knew it was wrong but won't give in because they don't want to admit they were wrong and they don't want to show any weakness.
I don't care how many countries america bribes into recognizing but there will never be real peace in Kosovo without justice!

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!

Exactly, civilians were killed and that is why Serbia must never rule Kosovo again. Serbia did nothing to avoid the war, indeed did everything to encourage it through Milosevic's policies (i.e. atonomy abolishment) which the majority of the Serbs supported.

These civilians were not killed by some kind of natural disaster, no, they were deliberate killings and expulsions by the very state they lived in.

An army against civilians, shelling and burning their houses against women and children, pizza shop massacres, entire families slaughtered, mass graves of civilians found all the way to Belgrade, all this in the heart of Europe. No that was not a civil war, it was slaughtery of the civilians.

Yes similar things happened in Bosnia, that's why Serb possitions there were bombed constantly and that's why many Western powers saw their intervention in Bosnia as too little too late. But at least the world did not want to see another Bosnia.

This is not a case of pure civil war, this was a war between two different ethnicities, in every meaning of the word, language, customs, culture etc. They were not one people, they were not one nation, and they were forced to belong to one country against their will.
(Denis, 14 December 2009 17:35)

and the Croats, Bosniaks and KLA were all saints and never committed war crimes? Serbia has over half a million refugees - Serbs, Jews, Roma, Gorani & Bosniaks who fled Kraijina and Kosmet. Can you explain that one are you so consumed by your hatred towards Serbs and Serbia in general that you are unwilling to recognise that all sides suffered in this calamatous break up of a once prospoerous socialist state that was single handedly taken apart piece by piece by the EU-NATO Imperialists because it didnt somehow fit into their imperial chess game.

Yes blame the Serbs for all your woes. I see a little ethno nationalist, irredentist rant in your final comments. Enough said.

Serbia will prevail in the end. You can bank on that my friend.

p2 - "Estimate about the danger to the civilians and to the international peace and security was widely accepted. Do not forget the fact that the UN Security Council at the end of 1998 stated that the situation had deteriorated to such extent that it was endangering international peace."

As for endangering international peace - what a load of rubbish - a bit like Iraq's WMD argument. A fantasy created as an excuse to invade and control Kosovo's reserves - but that's another issue.

The issue I'm interested in is Kosovo's supposed uniqueness. If we accept that regions are allowed to secede if there has been fighting between itself and the rest of the state, then so be it, BUT it should be applied globally. To claim that Kosovo is unique is plain stupid. There are numerous other examples similar to Kosovo such as the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq. They wouldn't be recognised simply because Turkey is an ally of the US. what about southern Sudan? the arabic northern sudan attacking the black african southern sudan and by UN estimates more than 1 MILLION killed and many more millions displaced. Why no interest or intervention there? maybe because China is an ally of Sudan and the US doesn't want to start a proxy war?

My point is that it's simply hypocritical to state that there are valid reasons to allow a group of people to secede from a state and then claim that Kosovo is unique when it's simple to show numerous examples which would be much more deserving than Kosovo to gain independence, but are denied it simply because they are not allied to the US. If this is what Albanians call democracy then so be it, but those who live by the sword die by it - Serbia was a US ally in both world wars, but when it suited the US and Germany to split up Yugoslavia they had no problems with that idea. In the future, when the US has had it's use for Kosovo, if there is ever any trouble with Serbia the Us cavalry won't be riding to your rescue.

The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that Kosovo will remain a powder keg which could explode at any time.

Isn't this the case with all civil wars and unrests around the world?
This is not unique to Kosovo so it cannot be used for that purpose.

How many Rwandans died and how many were civilians?
How many died in Bosnia on all sides and were they also civilians?

Show me a civil war without civilians being killed and I will admit that Kosovo was unique.
Show me any war in which civilians did not get killed.
(Peggy, 14 December 2009 12:57)

Exactly, civilians were killed and that is why Serbia must never rule Kosovo again. Serbia did nothing to avoid the war, indeed did everything to encourage it through Milosevic's policies (i.e. atonomy abolishment) which the majority of the Serbs supported.

These civilians were not killed by some kind of natural disaster, no, they were deliberate killings and expulsions by the very state they lived in.

An army against civilians, shelling and burning their houses against women and children, pizza shop massacres, entire families slaughtered, mass graves of civilians found all the way to Belgrade, all this in the heart of Europe. No that was not a civil war, it was slaughtery of the civilians.

Yes similar things happened in Bosnia, that's why Serb possitions there were bombed constantly and that's why many Western powers saw their intervention in Bosnia as too little too late. But at least the world did not want to see another Bosnia.

This is not a case of pure civil war, this was a war between two different ethnicities, in every meaning of the word, language, customs, culture etc. They were not one people, they were not one nation, and they were forced to belong to one country against their will.

kosovo will always be serbian!!
And for you albanians if u dont like serbia why did u come in the first place in kosovo???

By terorizing non albanians / by assimilating muslims and violently convert serbs to albanians thats what happand in the last 500 years in kosovo!

Thats why there are now 90% albanians /before WO2 50% AND IN 15TH CENTURY 0%
Think about that.

PS
Look at the country's that recongnize kosovo
USA kissers or hardcore islam country's like Saudi- Arabia!!

It's so humorous to listen to Slovenia and Croatia say what they are told to say. Nothing ever changes, history just repeats itself.
So Mr. Turk, what is your view on Republika Srpska or the Mitrovica pocket? :)

"The court can analyze the circumstances of the proclamation of independence, it can state its opinion about those circumstances but it cannot prescribe the policy of recognition to the countries."

Yes we know that but the countries will made a decision based on what the court thinks as well.
If the court says that it was not legal to declare UDI then we won't be seeing any more recognitions.
Nobody is expecting the court to bind anyone to their decision but we are expecting governments to have a very hard time explaining why they are recognising Kosovo when the court has not given it their stamp of approval.

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!
(Ratko, 14 December 2009 15:38)

Lies and fabrications????

The reality of what happend in Kosovo is wel documented.

The yellow house not that is lies and fabrications

Indeed the arriving to an opinion might not be easy but I agree that the result will not be ambiguous. After careful readings of the ICJ transcripts it seems more likely that the opinion will be on Kosovo's favor. I might be biased as an Albanian but as far as the question presented to the ICJ, I can almost guarantee that the outcome will be pro Kosovo camp. The testimonials by Croatia and Slovenia were crucial as they precisely pinpointed the illegal removal of the autonomy the subsequent political dependency on one of the republics (serbia) and the attrocities that followed these events onto the Albanian population.
It is unjust to pretend that this was a civil war. Driving close to a million people out of their homes and country by organized military units it is NOT a civil war.
Dear Peggy if you followed the ICJ, you would have seen that such argument was never brought up by Serbia & CO. Why do you think that is? Because it is absurd.
The ICJ will be remembered as a failed move by Mr. Jeremic. Not only there isn't such international law which regulates UDIs but Serbia just opened itself up for an official lawsuit, after this opinion is issued by ICJ.
The only hope that Serbia has is Mitrovica, and surely will attempt to cause further destabilization by leaning on the pro-Kosovo ICJ opinion, but it will be another hopeless case.

Bganon:
“Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.”

Yes that was the message of Dayton and the recognition of “Republika Srpska” covering half of Bosnia. That was certainly a crime. That was what Milosevic/Seselj again attempted in Kosova.

It is not the case in Kosova’s UDI, because if every Serb refugee returns to Kosova, which I would like to see, it would not alter the demographic majority in even one district of the country. Ironically, the only part whose ethnic majority has been altered is Northern Mitrovica, which was majority Albanian in 1998 and entirely Serb now due to successful ethnic cleansing in 1999, giving the 3 majority districts of the north a centre. It is true that Serbs were also ethnically cleansed from southern Mitrovica, even more totally, and that remains a stain on the Albanian side, to be sure. But even if every Serb returned there, it would not alter its ethnic majority.

Thus it is not reverse ethnic cleansing in Kosova that has created a majority of people, in all but north of the Ibar, who want an independent state.

MikeC:
“and why haven't the Germans lost all of Germany etc?”

Germany lost East Prussia and other former German territory, and 14 million German civilians of eastern Europe, from what was East Prussia, plus Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia etc, were driven from their homes in one of the most horrendous revenges in history. After WWI, Hungary lost a majority of its territory, including to Serbia, and that was just for being on the wrong side. I don’t condone that, of course. But Serbia is far from unique, if you (wrongly) include Kosovar independence in the same category. Indeed, Serbia effectively gained half of Bosnia.

Based on the collaboration of the Albanians in Kosovo with the Ottomans and the Nazis and the subsequent suffering of Serbs in Kosovo communist Yugoslavia should never have given Kosovo autonomy. That would have prevented most past, present, and future problems. Let's sue Croatia for that for Tito was Croatian.

The ICJ can not tell countries to recognize, but it can tell them that if they do they are going against international law.
To some countries that doesn't matter. To others it may move them to hold back on recognizing, as if they do, it basically means they are saying international law is not important.
The ICJ is useless pretty much.

Proves nothing, pss. The world, especially Eurpoe, does not like the trouble making Albanians. Serbian land is occupied by foreign forces in an attempt to appease Albanian violence. This era shall pass too, and the land (KiM) will return ti its rightful owners, the Serbs. We will be patient.

'You speak of 'State sponsored killing'?

How ironic when that was exactly what the countries in Nato (that you revere) were doing against Serbia in the name of 'democracy' in 1999. '

The difference is that Serbian/FRY military and police forces targeted civilians as a means of forcing them out of their own country. The NATO attacks did kill some civilians, but they were not targets.

If NATO had wanted to inflict terror by a mass killing of civilians, they would have bombed a bridge in Belgrade during one of the protest gatherings.

Fair enough lets use the moral argument when deciding whether a given area has earned nation state status.

I equally expect that the US will hand back its land to Native Americans. And I expect the same from Australians.

That won't happen? Why?

Hmm, is it because the moral argument is secondary to having an overwhelming majority in a given area?

Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this...

The way I see it is this:

1) Court rules in favour of Pristina - Serbia wins as RS seceeds from BiH

2) Court delivers ambigious decision - Serbia wins as Pristina led into a legal cul de sac, i.e. final status uncertain very much like Northern Cyprus. The only way for Pristina to untangle itself from the mess is to engage with Belgrade as current situation is unsustainable in long term. Recognitions for UDD all but stopped.

3)Court declares that Pristina's UDD was secession and not in keeping with international law - Serbia wins. Recognitions halted, some withdraw forcing Pristina back to the table.

To sum it up, Belgrade has Pristina by the short and curlies.

Danilo's horse has run away from its chariot. In this case, Mr. Danilo Turk, the goods in the chariot, are what will be weighed, not the horse pulling it.

Hmm, is it because the moral argument is secondary to having an overwhelming majority in a given area?

Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this...
(bganon, 14 December 2009 13:40)

Well it kinda is. Remember you Serbs swarmed the area many centuries ago and took it over. Of course that is not something you want to be reminded of. Or why do they support Srspka independence while objecting to Kosova's?

At the end of the day it comes down to demographics and power. A Turkish friend of mine was puzzled at Kosova's UDI and asked me why did we do it when in 50 years we could have had all of Serbia based on birth rates. He did have a point.

If NATO had wanted to inflict terror by a mass killing of civilians, they would have bombed a bridge in Belgrade during one of the protest gatherings.
(Amer, 14 December 2009 17:04)

They did that by bombing factories, bridges, apartment blocks, refugee convoys, TV stations and other civilian targets killing innocent lives.

The imperial propaganda just wont wash any more. Nothing will or can hide that the bombing of Yugoslavia just like the invasion of Iraq was one big huge war crime.

Ironic that so many dismiss the lives lost due to the Milosevic regime.
Maybe that is why so many in the world is against the return of Kosovo to Serbian control. Kind of proves the point doesn't it.

The difference is that Serbian/FRY military and police forces targeted civilians as a means of forcing them out of their own country. The NATO attacks did kill some civilians, but they were not targets.
--
And immediately after the war, NATO and KLA terrorists targeted Serbian civilians and forced them out of the province. The same occured in 2004.

Refugees are expected during periods of war but what ethnic Albanians and NATO did happened during periods of peace.

We have no intention of rewarding war criminals and terrorists and for that reason Kosovo will never become independent.

Yes blame the Serbs for all your woes. I see a little ethno nationalist, irredentist rant in your final comments. Enough said.

Serbia will prevail in the end. You can bank on that my friend.
(Niall O'Doherty, 14 December 2009 18:27)

So lets analyze your ICJ post
If the ICJ says independence illegal than for sure Kosovo will have hard time. Maybe 15 years and than either a member of UN or will join Albania. As a NATO member dot think that militarily SERBIA can object or will object.

2) ICJ rules that UDI was legal and the case is over. Serbia realizes that they lost, extend the hand of peace (after they apologize for the murders they committed) and we all live happily ever after.

3) ICJ ruling very vague than Kosova continues to be and more recognitions to come and in 5 years member of UN. After all USA, England, France and the western powers are behind them

Still to this day, the same anti-Serb propaganda is being used to demonize Serbs. Stop with the lies and fabrications!!! Serbs will not back down to albanian terror!
(Ratko, 14 December 2009 15:38)

Over 900,000 albanians driven from their homes you call fabrications? I don't blame you Ratko because RTS did not let you see how those people were in the open in Macedonia and Albania. Why do you think they decided to go to vacation that time? Nobody demonised and demonises the serb people. Milosevic regime with state sponsored killing and deportations done in your name did good job on demonizing serbs.

"Turk, a professor of international law, said that the issue of unilateral secession was "always disputable" and related to political tensions, and "in that sense dangerous to the world peace"."

-- Exactly the point of Serbia taking this case to the ICJ. And exactly the point raised when considering other would-be secessionist groups who will be looking at this case as a precedent for how to proceed.

"'But in the case of Kosovo we have to take into consideration the humanitarian element. The fact is that the force was widely used in Kosovo in summer of 1998 and there were victims among the civilian population,' said he."

-- Oh please, are we still on this? 2,000 deaths during the combat, and 10,000 total deaths (including Serbs) only after NATO started the bombing. If this is the criteria that legitimizes the establishments of other states, we automatically have to reestablish Republika Srpska Krajina. We have to carve up Turkey to the point of that country extending little beyond Ankara. We might as well carve up Iraq, Rwanda, China, and Sudan too, but no one seems interested in doing that. And by that measure, Serbia should get most of Bosnia for that they suffered through during WWII. Let's not ascribe normative qualities to something as concrete as territorial secession. Let's also not forget the instigators of the 1998/1999 conflict were KLA agents, not Milosevic's forces, who were keenly aware that forcing Belgrade to retaliate would have given the pretext to call for international aid. At the risk of minimizing the tragedy of those who *did* die during the conflict, let's not smile crocodile tears knowing political leverage can be extracted over the dead.

History lesson wrote:

“if every Albanian immigrant or descendant of Albanian immigrants were to leave and go back to Albania this would not be the case and Serbs would be the majority.”

Here we go again with that hoary old myth of some mass immigration from Albania to Kosova that you guys always fall back on, for which the “evidence” is about as strong as the evidence that a comet will destroy the world next year. Why not give up ion that one at least?

“Just because you were born in Kosovo doesn't make it your land, you are still originating from ALBANIA.”

No it doesn’t, I originated somewhere else in the Balkans, and just where is none of your business, and has nothing to do with the argument.

“1330
- 89 settlements, 2166 households
2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%) “

I’m not disputing this (there is loads of changed demographics all over the world since 1330, for anyone who happens to think this ancient history is important, so perhaps Kiev should go back to the Swedes, for example), but I do have a question.

My understanding is that the Ottomans only took censuses of religion, not ethnicity, always a vague concept before the modern era. I’m just wondering if here “Serbian” means Serbian Orthodox and “Albanian” means Catholic or Muslim. Just a genuine question to any historians out there.

“1897 -
It is estimated that around 400,000 Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman War * Key change in demographics happen, majority switch”

Our history master just “forgot” to mention that this occurred after the events of the late 1870s when the majority of the population – ie, Albanians – were brutally ethnically cleansed from Nis and other regions of south Serbia. Yes the cleansed Albanian refuges then did the same in return to Serbs in Kosovo, “population exchange” you might say. So I suppose if you want to swap Nis and south Serbia for Kosova, it would be equal, but probably not the best way of doing things.

“World Wars - 1948 *Key demographic change in majority continues
Kosovo was occupied by Italian-controlled Greater Albania, ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 to 250,000 Serbs.”

Oops, forgot 1912-13, conquest, brutality, massive ethnic cleansing. Forgot the 70,000 Serb colonists sent into Kosovo after 1918 from Serbia, and the expulsion of Albanians to Turkey.

Forgot that only the colonists couldn’t return after 1945.

Of course the Albanian population continued to grow faster than the Serbs for the same reasons the numbers of Irish Catholics, Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians grew faster than those of Irish protestants, Lebanese Christians and Israelis – the poor and oppressed tend to have bigger families, while Serbs could always leave the hell-hole of poverty stricken Kosova for north Serbia and Vojvodina for better living standards. The other “explanations: are the usual racist myths used against poor people the world over.

to Dim Tuc:
1330 - 89 settlements, 2166 households
2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)
(History_Lesson, 14 December 2009 20:03)

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?

I wonder if Slovenia had part of its territory illegally taken away, would President Turk have a different perspective on geo-politics!

Peggy,
You callit civili war, and I call it State sponsored killing. There is a huge difference,don't you think?
(Kosova-USA, 14 December 2009 13:44)

Yes, and You are wrong.

I read every transcript of the hearings, and concluded the following.
All the states that were pro Serbia, were pounding the fact that Kosovo UDI was illegal, basically stating the secession is against the international law, even though there is no such a law to prohibit nor to authorize Declaration of Independence. All these states conveniently avoided to acknowledge what took place during the war, forgetting that over 700.000 people was driven out of the country, massacred, burning of homes, the killings that took place as well as confiscated all their Identity documentation, with a purpose to say later that they not from Kosova. This tells me what kind of morality these countries have when comes to human rights and recognition of a typical humanitarian tragedy. During the hearings they totally avoided to say at least something about the atrocities committed upon the defenseless Albanian population.
Where were the Serbian politicians when these inhumane acts were committed? I never noticed any anti war rally taking place in Belgrade or elsewhere in Serbia to condemn the war in Kosovo, to condemn the savage atrocities that were taking place. I understand Jeremic was not old enough to take charge against the war, but what about Tadic, and those old enough politicians that have still fresh memories about the war? The never said anything about it, did they? In contrary they were praising the killings starting from Kostunica all the way to Nikolic and others.

Anyway, mark my words that the sticking point here is the “State Sponsor Killings” thus UDI will be qualified as not against the international law.
Who lost the morality and Serbs found it?

Of course it is hard for Slavic muslims, and Albanians to realize that their great grand parents are forced converts. The majority of them will never know their true heritage, and almost all will deny it.
(History_Lesson, 14 December 2009 20:03)

First, your fact are as true as you believe them to be, I can bring you here numbers that support the other side almost 100%, of course if B92 posts them, cause they usually don't.


As an Albanian non-practicing muslim, I say loud and clear that islam has been one of the worse calamities of my nation, and in fact all of the Balkans. I am not the only Albanian muslim that says so, and only in Albania the intellectual elite with muslim names is openly anti-islam, headed by Ismail Kadare the world renouned Albanian writer.

So no it is not hard at all for Albanians to see the historical truth in it, as we still honor 2 christians Scandeberg and Mother Teresa as the most distinguished Albanians in history. The problem is that Serb left them no choice but to ally with Ottomans in the name of survival.

Albanians used islam as a means of survival to offset the nationalistic pressures from Serbia in north and Greece in south. In fact the Albanians converted to islam en masse, when nationalism of their 2 neigbors was taking ground.

So i would disagree with you. But we all know this was not about islam, or christianity, it is all about land and identity, as every other conflict in the Balkans. Many of these nations run away from Yugoslavia fearing that Serbian shovinism will deny them the vital things of a nation, statehood, territory and identity.....

..... and for what I see here from some of the comments, their worries are justified.

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?


History lesson Conveniently left that out.

let me refresh your memory which u selectivly left out.

The balkans were Slav free and Dardania was under the Roman province of Illyria/Illyricum.

History tells us that empires have risen and fallen, surely Serbia is no exeption.

Long live the Independept Republic of Dardania.

'Owada himself stated that a clear statement from the ICJ cannot be expected.'

I'd really like to know exactly what he said in the language he said it in. The only record I could find on the web of Owada's statement was the Russian simultaneous interpretation of the session, where his statement used the word "однозначный," which can be translated as "simple": the opinion won't be "a simple yes or no, for or against." It sounds like he's expecting either a "yes, and for the following reasons" or "no, and for the following reasons," which would account for the reference to 30 pages. Countries may pick and choose which of the reasons they find compelling, but to me it sounds like the opinion itself won't be ambiguous - just not "simple."

to Dim Tuc:

Yes you are correct that is every Serb were to return to their land in Kosovo they would still be a minority; however, if every Albanian immigrant or descendant of Albanian immigrants were to leave and go back to Albania this would not be the case and Serbs would be the majority. Just because you were born in Kosovo doesn't make it your land, you are still originating from ALBANIA.

Lets take a second and look at the demographic history of Kosovo, because without understanding the history of this land you can not even start to debate the independence. This is very important for us people from the West to realize before jumping to biased opinions.

1330 - 89 settlements, 2166 households

2,122 Serbian households (98%)
44 Albanian households (2%)

*Key note Islam does not exist in Kosovo, even Albanians were christian.

1455 - Turkish tax census

13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
1 Croat dwelling

1487 -
16,729 Christian housing (412 in Pristina and Vučitrn)
117 Muslim households (94 in Pristina and 83 in rural areas)

1683-1699 - The Great Turkish War between the Ottomans and the Habsburgs led to the flight of a substantial part of Serbian population to Austrian held Vojvodina and the Military Frontier - about 60-70,000 Serb refugees

1871 - census by Austrians

500,000 inhabitants, of which:

318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Roma (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks

1897 -
It is estimated that around 400,000 Serbs were cleansed out of the Vilayet of Kosovo between 1876 and 1912, especially during the Greek-Ottoman War * Key change in demographics happen, majority switch

World Wars - 1948 *Key demographic change in majority continues

Kosovo was occupied by Italian-controlled Greater Albania, ethnic cleansing of about 100,000 to 250,000 Serbs.

inhabitants:
498,242 Albanians (68.46%)
171,911 Serbs (23.62%)
28,050 Montenegrins (3.86%)

1971 - Province gained autonomy, census controlled by Albanians

103,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have left Kosovo, mainly due to mistreatment by Albanian authorities and population

1,243,693 total inhabitants

916,168 Albanians or 73.7%
228,264 Serbs (18.4%)
31,555 Montenegrins (2.5%)

Present Day - (2002)

87% Albanians
7% Serbs
3% Muslims (Bosniaks and Gorani)
2% Roma, Ashkali and Egyptians
2% Turks

9% or less Serbs today, driven out by the KLA once known as a terrorist group similar to the Tamil Tigers, except all of a sudden the US takes different sides calls 1 a terrorist and gives a thumbs up to the other? As we all know you can't expect US to follow anything other than where is more money at.


Side note: The Ottoman Empire enforced a blood tax or Devshirme. Devshirme was the practice by which the Ottoman Empire conscripted boys from Christian families, who were taken from their families by force, converted to Islam, trained and enrolled in one of the four royal institutions: the Palace, the Scribes, the Religious and the Military.

The devºirme system humiliated non-Muslim societies controlled by the Ottomans and was resisted.

Sadly to say what all of Europe was fighting against, now the majority of Europe has switched sides for political reasons?

Of course it is hard for Slavic muslims, and Albanians to realize that their great grand parents are forced converts. The majority of them will never know their true heritage, and almost all will deny it.

'Refugees are expected during periods of war but what ethnic Albanians and NATO did happened during periods of peace. '

1999 was a "post-conflict situation" when a certain amount of rough justice can be expected.KFOR should have done a better job in 2004, granted, but still, only three Serbs died. "Only" and "died" should not be used in the same sentence, but how often has the number of Albanians killed in 1998-1999 been trivialized here? And that was considerably more than 3.

Proves nothing, pss. The world, especially Eurpoe, does not like the trouble making Albanians. Serbian land is occupied by foreign forces in an attempt to appease Albanian violence. This era shall pass too, and the land (KiM) will return ti its rightful owners, the Serbs. We will be patient.
(quasistate,
Your post makes absolutely no sense. 1st you say that everyone hates the Albanians especially Europe, then you say they occupy Kosovo to appease Albanian violence.
If Europe was so against the Albanians they would be backing Serbia (whom I guess you think they love) instead of being committed to making Kosovo free from Serbia permanently.
As I have said many times, one only has to read the comments here to understand the support for an independent Kosovo!

"countries will made a decision based on what the court thinks as well. If the court says that it was not legal to declare UDI then we won't be seeing any more recognitions. Nobody is expecting the court to bind anyone to their decision but we are expecting governments to have a very hard time explaining why they are recognising Kosovo when the court has not given it their stamp of approval"
Because the court is not in the business of giving the stamp of approval because it is not what Serbia asked in the question sent to the court. The question the Court has to answer is “Is the unilateral declaration of independence […]in accordance with international law?”. Even if the UDI was illegal, that does not mean that Kosovo today is not a state. The statehood of an entity is matter of fact, not a matter law. Something is considered a state if:
- It occupies a defined territory
- Has effective control over the extent of such territory
- Is in possession of a permanent population.
- Is able to engage in international relations (for example is able to fulfill treaty obligations)
So, I’m not really sure what Serbia wants to achieve with all of this. Even if the decision is 100% in Serbia’s favor that does not affect whether Kosovo today is a state or not; the above mentioned four FACTUAL criteria determine it. Every state then decides for itself if these four criteria are satisfied in the case of Kosovo and recognizes or not accordingly.
Guys remember that declarations of independence are by definition illegal under domestic law because threaten a country’s constitutional order. But that does not mean anything. The declaration of independence of US in 1776 was obviously illegal but still US became a state because fulfilled the criteria above and was recognized to have done so by other states.

You can twist everything can't you.
Listening to you, one would think that Serbs marched into KosovO, raped, killed and burned everything and everyone and then sat down and had their meal.
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)

I think you can twist many things as well. Well no, before the meal they had to digg some mass graves, or dump the boddies in the refregerated trucks to carry them in Serbia and leave no trail..... It is not the first time in history Serbia marches into Kosovo and does that...


"Who was terrorising Serbs for decades in KosovO? Who kept with intimidation and terror and finally started murdering the police there in order to provoke something resembling war only then to say that they are so innocent and got attacked for no reason? (Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)

K-Alb got attacked mainly for their cause, which they up till 1998 pursued in one of the most peacefull ways Balkan had ever seen. What did Serbs of Krajina and Bosnia do when they wanted to rule themselves, no they did not protest peacefully, they started to fight, and many of them commited war crimes. I don't see you ever critizising them.
Now you make it sound like K-Alb just had to rape a Serbian woman before every meal, which of course it's ridiculous, anyway yes, the conflict existed and it always have with both sided abusing each other when they had a chance, but of course it was not escalated to the point of war, and could have been controled with a bit of cooperation between Serb and Albanian authorities. Instead you rolled in the army to kill one side. Very bright, and responsible.

"Who killed their own? Yes, KLA killed many Albanians as well. Are you going to expoe that on are you going to chalk all the deaths to Serbs? You certainly have selective memory.(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:47)"

KLA killed both sides when necessary, of course. But the KLA was a guerrilla force, formally not a representative of the K-Alb people until they started making a point, which was that only through war you can talk some sense with Serbia. The KLA was a forced choice for K-Alb, and not their first one, Rugova was, but you ignored him casue Serbia was hardly waiting to cleanse the K-Alb, and KLA was the best chance they got.

The Serbian army apprently did not go in to eliminate only the KLA, but it went in to cleanse and murder K-Alb en masse, most of the victimes were innocent civilians which were not spared from Serbian guns.

Please tell me how many were Albanians? Tell us about one of your rulers in that period or for that record any of your rulers up until the 11th century? Please tell us why you were using the Turkish language up until the formation of Albania or why you considered Turkey your state? Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and Christian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbors were able?
(Milton, 15 December 2009 00:39)

100% Albanian.
King Agron, Queen Teuta, Genthius.
We weren't using Turkish we were using Albanian. What do you think the Albanian language was invented in the XX century?
We considered Turkey our state because we were ruling it that is why we never considered Srbija our state.

In case you haven't noticed yet we don't put much emphasis on religion like you Slavs do. We have always valued our freedom more than anything else and by freedom I don't mean freedom of religion but freedom to bear arms. Some Albanians maintained their Christianity, kudos to them, but to say that our neighbors did not convert is preposterous. Aren't Bosnians Moslem converted slavs or do you have another theory about that?
And why be so proud about maintaining and Abrahamic religion like Christianity? You know it was imposed on the indigenous population just like Islam was. Oh I forgot you weren't in the Balkans when we first converted to Christianity you were roaming in the tundra so in order to be part of the "indigenous" population you had to embrace Christianity.

I'm not even gonna respond the claim "Albanians are the newest arrivals on the Balkan peninsula." But if that were true I must say kudos to us and at the rate we are taking over the peninsula if I were you I'd BE VERY AFRAID.

"Whats the message? You can win territory if you fight for it and ethnic cleansing is rewarded.

Is that this moral argument? Somebody explain this..."
(bganon, 14 December 2009 13:40)

The message is whatever you will want it to be. The message is in the ears of the listeners. Serbs will want to hear the message differently from the Albanians, the Albanians differently from Serbs. The Spanish will want to hear a different message, and ETA an even different one, I guess. Everybody according to their own interests. Nothing new...So, if you want/like to hear that it was about gaining territory through fighting, you're welcome...but it is not correct, it was not about territory...

The international community acted in the interests of human rights in 1999. Not in pursuit of your nationalism. And correcting a wrong does not mean that the consequence is to give an unfettered blank canvass to unilateral actions. Unilateral actions that will cause future disputes and worse.
(Mister, 15 December 2009 01:28)

Nobody can deny the fact that the abolishment of the status Kosova had in Jugoslavia was a forceful unilateral action from Serbia. Nobody can deny the fact that the ethnic cleansing and killing of thousands of Albanian civilians was a willful, well-planned, state-organized unilateral act from the state of Serbia.
Under such circumstance the social contract that makes a state was broken and inexistent. Under such circumstances when the last boot of the Serbian state represented by its soldiers left and the lack and existence of a social contract between Serbia and Kosova, Serbian sovereignty over Kosova ceased to exist permanently. Now the Serbian camp despite all the murders, despite all the ethnic cleansing, despite all the rape and mutilations caused by Serbia in the name of its citizens want to re-engineer a social contract that has been dead from the moment Kosova's status was unilaterally abolished by Serbia. The latest unilateral breach of this social contract was the approval of the Serbian Constitution with the state's approval to deny the right to vote for such a constitution to the Albanian population. If the Constitution is the supreme law of the land; if such a supreme law defines the social contract (Kosova's status) between Serbia and Kosova; if 95% of population was unilaterally denied the right to vote for the supreme law, to have a say in this attempt to re-engineer the social contract, then by simple deduction such unilateral actions by the state of Serbia do not apply to those who have no representation, no vote, and no say in this bad attempt at unilaterally re-engineering a social contract that at that time was inexistent. Under these circumstances, under no social contract in place and under repeated unilateral actions taken from Serbia then it is only natural for those living in Kosova to make a social contract within themselves; so independence it is.



P.S Declarations of Independence anywhere in the world 99% of the cases by its very nature are unilateral.

"Dear Peggy if you followed the ICJ, you would have seen that such argument was never brought up by Serbia & CO. Why do you think that is?"

The shameful acts purportedly in the name of Serbia was brought up - by Serbia. I have not seen the same by any other Balkan country...saints and sinners is it? Black and white? Good and bad?

Peggy: Yes it happened in Rwanda. But what happened in Kosovo took place in Europe where the "free leaders" of Europe could not sit blindly and watch while people were slaughtered. European leaders had to "put their money where their mouth is" to explain what I mean clearly, the European leaders had to live up to democracy and freedom, which they advocate.

In the case of Rwanda as the unfortunate happened, unfortunately happend in Africa, and the reason why not the Government of Rwanda got a slap on the wrist is completely to blame the African countries which do not share the democratic world ideology. And it is precisely those countries that who are supporting Serbia, these countries are not interested in freedom and not oppressing their minorities. Face the truth and admit to yourself, the only countries that are on your side (which unfortunately are many) are countries that ruthlessly harass their minority populations.

And Peggy in Bosnia there were many more bosnianmuslims in comparison with Serbs that lost their lives, do not try to make it sound like something equal, the result of that war was of course an independent Bosnia, albeit a bit handicapped because of the RS, if you ask me.

Your reasoning Peggy resounds through 90% of you Serbs, you think you can do what you want and still get away with it, but it does not work that way, what you did in Kosova you did do in the middle of Europe (ok a bit more to the southeast, I know ). Because of that, Kosova is now an independent state.

Radoslav: Your argument that the conflict in Kosova was not endangering international peace is ignorant, for it did. The conflict threatened to spread to Montenegro, Macedonia (which it did), and P-valley, including Bosnia began to hawk. In view of this the world's giants stood against each other, the United States on one side which supported Kosova and your mother Russia and even China on the Serbian side. Have you forgotten that there were 50 000 soldiers ready to invade Kosovo and Serbia on the border, you seem to have forgotten it, your salvation from this was that you signed the 1244. And Iraq as you mention, if all the Arab countries had been standing behind Iraq that conflict had been endangering to international peace to, but no Arabs are united, and the Iraqi war did not threatened to spread to neighboring countries, not to the same extent as the Kosova conflict did. Do not make false comparison.

One thing I do agree with you about is that the right to govern itself should apply globally, but try to get through this change, it cannot be done, and right now my country is my priority, but I support and wish all the vulnerable a better life and the right to self-government if they so wish.

The point you all miss, is: through history, people have fought wars to conquer land, there is no questioning it, we have to accept that and even label it as “ok”. You managed to conquer and annex Kosovo, and isuppose that would be ok, but it's year 2009, your behavior can not simply be regarded as ok at this time we are in. U.S. has admitted the violation of rights of their indigenous population, Australia has also apologized to their indigenous population, and even Spain has stopped bombarding innocent people, but Serbia has not done any of this. Serbia is doing the contrary, denying that it is guilty of anything, and that’s not right. And that’s why you are FORCED to hand over the land to the Kosovars.

Your reasoning Peggy resounds through 90% of you Serbs, you think you can do what you want and still get away with it, but it does not work that way, what you did in Kosova you did do in the middle of Europe (ok a bit more to the southeast, I know ). Because of that, Kosova is now an independent state.
(p2, 15 December 2009 14:09)

You can twist everything can't you.
Listening to you, one would think that Serbs marched into KosovO, raped, killed and burned everything and everyone and then sat down and had their meal.

Who was terrorising Serbs for decades in KosovO? Who kept with intimidation and terror and finally started murdering the police there in order to provoke something resembling war only then to say that they are so innocent and got attacked for no reason?

Who killed their own? Yes, KLA killed many Albanians as well. Are you going to expoe that on are you going to chalk all the deaths to Serbs? You certainly have selective memory.

Who staged things with a little help from CIA?

With so much dishonesty, propaganda and blood on your own hands, you should start being a little less vocal.

Ok we agree to disagree in regards to numbers. Christian family Muslim in 1400s does not mean only Serbian as you know we were christina and still are.

2) Lets say this numbers are correct so what. there were no Israelis in Israel or maybe just few in 1945 look at it today. Or Alzas in france it was german today is 100% French.


Still all u want with this is to take Moral ground and say you been here. Ok that is your way Albanians believe something else,

What is most important today you have 90% Albanian and increasing and not much u can do about this. Call it primitive but successful.

All serbia can get is North Mitrovica and that not any time soon in 20 or 30 years there will be no Serbs left there trust me when I say this.

The reason you have Serbs there is they get special Salary for staying in Kosovo. this wont last indefinitely and Albanians will move there slowly but surly.

I know for a fact there are 2 friend of mine who are selling flats in Prishtina and they are Serbs they know its gone lost.

Reality in the ground and as per some saying you will join Nato and come to Kosovo think again not possible.

I hope u join Nato then you will have to recognise before u join.

Please please nationalist here dont take moral high ground Serbia is not the financial region of Balkan its far from it. I work with Serbian gov as part of EU investment initiative I know first hand situation.

Pegyy

appart from the reason already mentioned during the hearing Kosovo has the strongest allies, just like Serbian during 19th and 20th century.
(Olf, 14 December 2009 13:41)

So might is right??
That's something only bullies believe in.

(Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21) (Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21)

The west does not give two hoots for the 700,000 that were driven out of Kosovo. It’s all about Camp Bondsteel. The ICJ only has to remain silent on the issue of Kosovo and you don’t win and at worst that’s what will happen. You see if the ICJ makes the “wrong decision” then every little group will proclaim independence and that’s not what the west needs – it does not want to support any more financially unviable countries. The EU has had enough.

You can mark your words all you like, but you beloved US has on numerous occasions provided “State Sponsor Killings” – have a look in South America. Here is something to ponder over: during the current Copenhagen climate change discussions the US began to threaten China over carbon emissions.

China turned around and in full public view told the US that it was no longer a world power and if it did not like what China was putting forward then China can withdraw its money from the US. The US representative had his head down and not a word past his lips.

TimDuc:

1. Serbs consists majority o the territory of Kosovo not only in medieval - but until 19th century. Eg.:
1871:
318,000 Serbs (64%),
161,000 Albanians (32%),
10,000 Roma (Gypsies) and Circassians
2,000 Turks
lived in mutesarifluk of Prizren.

2. Do You remember why and when coming Albanians who lived on the Niš territory???? Let me remind you - they coming as turkish colonists after great expulsion of Serbs in end of 17th century and continues in 18th and 19th century. Same in Kosovo.

"ICJ can't tell countries not to recognize"

That's exactly right. Malavi recognized the Independence of Kosova today:) with many more to follow.
Thank you Malavi.

Let's say the current status stays frozen for a little while...and let's say Serbia develops massively, or even joins the EU. Would you then accept Kosovo into your fold, with it's large young and mostly unemployed population?
I think someone should call this bluff...maybe for April 1.

thank you mr Danilo Turk for telling us the truth! im very happy to see that all former yugoslav republics (south slavs) are on our side expext bosnia!

a special thanks goes to croatia and slovenia :)
(dan-ch, 14 December 2009 17:31)

In Slovenia it is mostly establishment that cares about Kosovo. People on the street are either indifferent or have strong views opposing Kosovo independence.

There is still strong pro-kosovo bias in media and politics in general, but among general populace pro-kosovo attitudes have largely evaporated.

But nobody is fooling himself that establishment in Slovenia, much less in Kosovo, is really running much of their foreign policy independently of Washington or Brussels.

So when they give their views on the subject, these seemingly independent remarks are relly public stunts to please State Department's ear.
And they help protect investments Slovenia has made in Kosovo since 1999.

Türk is just some guy who likes to get photographed. Much like Tito. His views about Kosovo carries little weight, even if it displeases a large portion of Slovenia's public, as is true for arrogant behavior of Jelko Kacin.

The fact is just not reflected in slovene media.

johny,

Top notch posts! Couldn't put it better myself.

Islam does not demand that converts renounce Christ - he remains a highly respected figure in Islam. (The same goes for Christian saints and other Biblical personages.) Muslims do not "worship" Muhammad - he is God's (last) prophet, it is only God who is worshiped.

You should also remember that in the Middle Ages, religion was not solely a matter of personal belief - it was necessary to be married by some official religious body, for example, for your children not to be treated as bastards, with all that meant for inheritance, for example. Islam could seem a very sensible alternative, with no Catholic priests available.
(Amer, 16 December 2009 18:00)

Wow, what rubbish. Do you actually belive all this?

No Christian would abandon Christ just because they had trouble getting priests. There were Orthodox priests there. Isn't onether denomination of Christianity preferable to renouncing Christ? Yes, you do have to renounce Christs. You can no longer cross yourslef and admit that Christ is a son of God. You cannot worship in a Church and follow Christ's teachings. In which way have no not renounced Christs as a son of God then?

Explain to me than, how come so many Albanians have remained either Catholic or Orthodox if things were that bad. How did they remain faithful to their religion? By admitting that their children were illigitimate?

Now, now, enough of excuses and just admit that majority of Albanians were ready to sell their souls in order to survive. That's what abandoning Christ is to a Christian.

History_Lesson can you please tell us how many Serb Households were in Kosova in 400 AD, or the day Christ was born?
(Zoti, 14 December 2009 23:19)

Please tell me how many were Albanians? Tell us about one of your rulers in that period or for that record any of your rulers up until the 11th century? Please tell us why you were using the Turkish language up until the formation of Albania or why you considered Turkey your state? Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and CHristian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbours were able? Albanians are the newest arrivals on the Balkan peninsula hence the late development of statehood and the habit of joining invading armies.

p2 -

"Your argument that the conflict in Kosova was not endangering international peace is ignorant, for it did. The conflict threatened to spread to Montenegro, Macedonia....." Why do these examples threaten international peace? Because in every case it would be Albanian nationalists trying to carve out part of an existing country to create a Greater Albania. So it wasn't Serbia destabilising the region but the Albanians.

"Have you forgotten that there were 50 000 soldiers ready to invade Kosovo and Serbia on the border" If you live in the West like I do then you'd know that there was never going to be any invasion of Kosovo after what happened to US troops in Somalia. The reason Serbia capitulated is that the US threatened to bomb Serbia to the stone age.

"and the Iraqi war did not threatened to spread to neighboring countries, not to the same extent as the Kosova conflict did." As stated above, this would have been a danger only because of Albanian nationalists trying to cause trouble. No other country in the region would have got involved. But this idea that there would be trouble in the region is total rubbish, because your masters, the US, who claimedthis would happen also controlled the people who might make it happen, i.e. the albanians. So this idea/argument, about the war spreading, has no merit whatsoever.

"but I support and wish all the vulnerable a better life and the right to self-government if they so wish." If this is what you believe then don't try to claim northern Kosovo - it's Serbian, simple.

"You managed to conquer and annex Kosovo" Serbs never "conquered" Kosovo. It has always been Serbian. It was before the Ottomans invaded, and when they were driven out of the Balkans we claimed it back, RIGHTFULLY. It's never been Albanian which is why there is NO albnain history in Kosovo. Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants, Serbs are the native people of Kosovo.

"U.S. has admitted the violation of rights of their indigenous population, Australia has also apologized to their indigenous population, and even Spain has stopped bombarding innocent people" This is because they killed 95% of their native populations when they conquered their lands. You conveniently forget to write that even though these countries apologise for what they have done, their courts and their govts don't allow the indigenous population to keep their OWN land.

And as for the comparison you albanians are always making about Albanian allies being democracies and Serbia's being dictatorships, explain this: The US,UK,Germany,France, etc are all "wonderful democracies who uphold the rule of law and maintain freedom and peace". Yet these same countries invade MORE countries than anyone else in the world - and illegally - like Iraq. And if you don't believe me, point your satellite dish to UK tv and you'll see the inquiry in the UK. EVERYONE knows it was ILLEGAL, yet everyone knows that "might is right".

And as for upholding international law, explain palestine and Israel. There is still an outstanding UN resolution demanding Israel move back to it's 1967 borders. Does the US make Israel do it, does France, Germany, the UK? No. So Albanian claims that their allies are true, free democracies upholding freedoms for peoples is just rubbish. The US and EU are EXACTLY the same as Russia and China, and everyone in the world knows it. I can keep telling everyone i am a millionaire, but in reality i'm not. I'm lying to myself and everyone else i tell!! no different from the US, EU and "democracy and freedom".

But this is the best bit. "And that’s why you are FORCED to hand over the land to the Kosovars." Serbia was forced to hand over Kosovo because kosovo is strategically important to the US for Bondsteel and Trepca. NO other reason. If it was for the reasons you state, and the US was such a beacon of democracy then it would have intervened in Sudan/Darfur, Rwanda, etc...

The reality is that countries only invade to take something they want. The US invaded Iraq for it's oil, Afghanistan for it's resources and Kosovo for it's coal.

Admit that Kosovo is simply an Albanian nationalist agenda to make a Greater Albania - you might as well admit it because your leader effectively did (Thaci) when he said that you'd waited 100 years for this - so it wasn't Milosevic that the problem, it was Serbian control in general that was the problem.

you can argue and argue and argue but any objective observer will see Kosovo as another Iraq case for the US - taking resources.

"The Vatican refused to allow priests to offer the sacraments in secret, so the Albanians had to choose, and selected Islam, probably because it freed them from the restrictions imposed by the government on non-Muslims."
(Amer, 15 December 2009 17:11)

And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?

johny,

Top notch posts! Couldn't put it better myself.
(Jetoni, US, 16 December 2009 04:51)

Totally agree that you couldnt've put it better. Not that Johny's comments make much sense.

We would like to ask our readers not to sign their comments using names of terrorists, past or present, original spelling or transliteration.

We will not publish such comments, as they are offensive.

Regards,

B92

I can´t help it, but...I am so extremely bored by this endless reiterations about how Serbs were the majority in the middle ages and so on...

guys, that´s a historical fact, yes, but we simply do not need to mention that each and every time, since everyone who is interested in this issue will automatically find these informations in serious historical libraries, books, databases etc.
( don´t expect our dear albanian friends here to do that - you´re only wasting your time with that intention )

I would ask my serb friends here not fall for cheap teenage-albanian propaganda:

every albanian remark about being "the poeple of kosovah" is born out of sheer despair - they have no other arguments, or to be precise, they have no arguments at all.

the only thing they have is the use of force, of brutal and illegal force, and not even by their own hand, since they are to weak as we all know, no, brutal force by foreign powers who want their own interests to be excercised in southern Serbia.

and one more thing: don´t fall for those alleged " albanians" who are writing here under western or scandinavian or romanian ore whatever names, that´s another indicator of not being right, the need of faking identities in order to paint a scenery of international support for the albanian cause - that´s rubbish, as you all should know.

do not react on their provocations, since what they want is simply to provoke aggressive serbian response, in order to show others how bad and aggressive "the Serbs" are... keep in mind that the average American, Romanian or Scandinavian is on our side, on the serbian side, the side of the law and truth.

last but not least, in regard to the remarks of Mr.Turk:

we have all seen how "independend" Slovenia is acting on the international scene when it comes to southern Serbia, just remember how they have been told WHEN and HOW to "recognise" the stillborn puppet-freak-creation on serbian soil.

the bottom-line is: the ICJ-opinion is indeed just an opinion, a non-binding opinion also, ..but, don´t fool yourselves my friends, it´s an influential opinion despite the words of Mr.Turk who is not speaking as a sovereign representant of the slovenian nation.

Radoslav, you are firm on your belief and there is no point for me to try changing your mind, mainly because I can’t, again some of the things you wrote I actually agree with, some I don’t agree with. But where does all this leave us, hate more hate and hate again, because at this point I’m just as firm on my belief as you are. Ok I will tech my son to hate you, and you can tech your son to hate me, and this travesty can keep on forever. BUT no I won’t tech my son hate, because I’m going to live FREE in my fairytale country as most of you put it and on the world map that I am going to have on my wall there will be a black gap where Serbia resides, and I will learn my son that that is a big lake called “The big lake” and I will not tech my son hate, I will spare him that, I leave that to you because you are better at it.

i guess this is where the truth commision comes in, give you guys a reality check. Seriously if what you are saying no one would invest in kosova then by being part of serbia if not a republic then autonomy, would serbia invest in kosova and why when you guys wanted to obliterate the landscape of all the albanians from there home homeland, what proof if any by the proposal serbia offered could even hint "less than independence more than autonomy" what is that telling you. kosova belongs to the people of kosova weather you like it or not, although unemployment maybe high, the albanian disporia continually send money back to kosova and acctually have a better standard of living than serbia and why would they compromise that to be with the beast that tried to obliterate them

A lame message to all of you: We (albanians and serbs) are probably the last parties on this earth that will ever be on the same page, I simply fear that we will never find common ground. And what does not finding common ground mean, I can imagine what it means for “extremist” on both sides, but what does it mean to the one that considers himself to be a well behaved and well managed and grounded person (or aren’t there any such individuals on this forum?). I think that for the well managed individual this would translate as a disaster, just the thought that you/me have/has a neighbor that hates your guts and wants to see you dead means for me a life long struggle. Now, I haven’t changed my point of view, but I think that you should change yours, because you are the ones who owe this (yes I’m for real). If you could be 100% true with yourself then I think that you would come to the same conclusion. I grow up in Kosovo I know what I am talking about. Albanians have everything to lose if Kosovo would join Serbia again, which I believe never will happened, but you have nothing to lose, but don’t look at it that way, see at it as a reconciliation and a chance to bury the hatchet, and most importantly a chance to better. In view of what has happened, I’m sorry but you cannot ask us the same. Look to the sun which (obviously) is a star close to earth or look further away and gaze on a star far away then you probably will understand how insignificant you are and if you don’t have a brain with the size of a peanut you will also understand how stupid conflicts are wherever they occur, Kosovo, Bosnia or Rwanda. The world has bigger issues. You know, I am the one who was chased out from my birthplace, I am the one who lost, actually, a lot of relatives and especially a very young cousin who was like a brother to me, if I can see the light then I hope that you can to, I’m not too optimistic though. Do not feed hate when I’m trying to bury mine, I don’t have to like you and I will not lie because I don’t like you, but I don’t have to hate you either. And not hating means I hope no more conflict, and the struggle for strengthening our economy both Kosovo’s and Serbia’s can begging and making a better live for ourselves, and most importantly a chance to show that humankind has left the Neanderthal era.

And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:40)

Since when did religion determine good qualities in people? Since when it became the determining factor of honesty? Since when loyalty to one religion makes one set of people better than the other? Last time I checked religion was responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people. Last time I checked Christianity was responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people. Last time I checked Islam was responsible for the death and punishment of millions of people. Last time I checked Serbs were pagans before becoming Christian. On what basis then is one form of conversion better than another? One what basis does one form of conversion make a set of people better than another? Especially having in mind that religion has caused more wars, more deaths and suffering than most diseases and any other human phenomena and beliefs combined. One what basis is being a firm believer to any religious dogma a quality that determines the good; while believing another religious dogma it determines the bad? Who are the people responsible in making the decision for all humanity that religion is good? Who are the people that make the decision for the rest of humanity that one specific religious dogma is better than the other and that following a specific dogma makes you good, honest, and better while following another dogma makes you bad, dishonest and worse? Who are the people who made the decision for the rest of humanity where conversion or non-belief are bad, while blind following to a specific religious dogma is the characteristic of only good people?

'And for such firm believers in Christ you chose to renounce him rather than celebrate him in secret.
Why don't I believe this?
(Peggy, 15 December 2009 20:40) '

Protestants can do this, but Catholics require the presence of a consecrated priest. You have to remember that this was at a time when people believed their eternal souls were at stake. (There were crypto-Christians, for a number of centuries, when a Catholic priest could be induced to serve a mass at private homes. It may have been that the Vatican was more interested in martyrs than assisting people to keep their religion in private.)

You guys don’t understand that if Serbia does not recognize you then nothing happens – no investment (I don’t know who would want to invest anyway), no jobs, nothing. Both China and Russia will never allow you into the UN so you are in limbo; a region recognized by 50/60 countries but have no rights apart from that. Why does not you powerful US friend do something to help you – apart from the fact that they are in trouble, they are only interested in Camp Bondsteel and that’s looking very dodgy too. There can be 1000% Albanians in Kosovo, but you will not move an inch forward.
All Serbia has to do is wait and the Albanians can “wither on the vine” or leave. We have waited for 400 hundred years so to get rid of the Ottomans so we can wait another 20 or 30 years, but we will not let the Kosovo go anywhere.
When it’s a question of national identity people like your “two Serb friends” are never asked. This is much bigger than two or three people.
NATO will never see Serbs, but your Albanian brothers can die in Afghanistan if they like. You still can’t see it; all Albanians talk about is NATO this or that, so why doesn’t NATO help you? Why doesn’t NATO force their members to invest or open factories in Kosovo?? Why doesn’t NATO force Serbia to recognize Kosovo??? The answers are not very nice for the Albanians.
Let’s get this straight and I hope it get through some thick heads here. Serbia is only now starting to emerge out of the worst part of its difficulties, after sanctions, the toughest in the world at one stage, being attached by NATO and now the world economic crises, but it has not done too badly. Serbia is earmarked to be the financial centre for the Balkans, you may not want to hear about this, but this is true and this will happen in the next decade, not now.

"(Albion, 14 December 2009 22:21)"

The international community acted in the interests of human rights in 1999. Not in pursuit of your nationalism. And correcting a wrong does not mean that the consequence is to give an unfettered blank canvass to unilateral actions. Unilateral actions that will cause future disputes and worse.

Serbia is earmarked to be the financial centre for the Balkans, you may not want to hear about this, but this is true and this will happen in the next decade, not now.
(sj, 16 December 2009 09:31)

Ok. I keep hearing this from the Serbian posters here every single day. Yet I don't see any reasons from them why that will be true. Why for example Greece, Slovenia, or Croatia for that matter will not be the financial center of the Balkans but Serbia will? What are the reasons for that? As far as I know they are better positioned than Serbia both geographically and politically. Slovenia and Greece are also better positioned economically. So what are some of the reasons why these countries will not be the Balkans financial center but Serbia will? I mean there must be some specific reasons for all of you to be so sure and believe it because you trumpet it every single day as if this was already true. Yet you repeat the same slogan but give no reasons why? Anyone care to give reasons?

sj,

Serbia will be much smaller in ten years, therefore, your argument is not valid that Serbia will be the center of Finance for the Balkans. Most likely it will be Slovenia, the Switzerland of the Balkans. Europe has more faith in Slovenia because it is more stable politically than the rest of the Balkans. I know you hate to hear this, but it's true. Serbia has too much of a bad reputation, in many ways, to be considered the leader of anything. This dream of yours is not possible for at least another fifty years. Serbia has lost the trust of Europe because of its disastrous wars of the 1990's.

"Please tell us for a people "so ancient" and CHristian why is it that you were not able to maintain your Christian identity like your neighbours were able?

(Milton, 15 December 2009 00:39)"

The rift between the Western and the Eastern Churches was as bitter as that between Christianity and Islam. (Remember how the Crusaders sacked Byzantium on the way to Jerusalem?) The Serbs had their priests with them, and could train new priests, but the Albanians were Catholics, and had to depend on the Vatican to send out priests, who encountered hostility from the Orthodox hierarchy and the humiliating restrictions of dhimmitude from the Muslim government. Eventually it became impossible to find Catholic priests to perform what were the absolutely essential services of life in those days - christenings, marriages, funeral masses and the like. The Vatican refused to allow priests to offer the sacraments in secret, so the Albanians had to choose, and selected Islam, probably because it freed them from the restrictions imposed by the government on non-Muslims.

Now, now, enough of excuses and just admit that majority of Albanians were ready to sell their souls in order to survive. That's what abandoning Christ is to a Christian.
(Peggy, 16 December 2009 21:16)

What a joke. Who are you kidding with this nonsense?

The soul of Albanians was not Christianity, nor was our identity defined by some religion of whatever kind.
Albanians embraced islam to survive, and what is more noble and sacred than preserving yourself? Should have they remained christians and disappear?

The oldest boddy of laws in Albania, The Kanun, has a first chapter called "The Church", even though it is a medival boddy of laws, and it does respect the church, in no way or form it allows it to interfere in the everyday life of the Albanians. This is 1400s we are talking about, where everywhere in Europe the church regulated, interferred and governed every aspect of life. Religion never played a central role in our lives to be something we would give our soul to, or have no soul in absence of. If that's not the case for you, that's fine, I respect that, but please have some integrity and respect the others. The world and human sould does not revolve around orthodoxy, just a hint for you.

This is the same as me saying that without Orthodoxy Serbian soul, and identity would not exist or would be meaningless.

Come on, give me a break, and stop putting down other nationalities, and you wonder why we want out from Serbia?

Kosova got its autonomy illegaly revoked, Milosevic also shut down albanian run radios, Tv stations schools were no longer taught in Albaninan ect.....

wheres the Albanian Rep?
on top of that around 800,000 Albanians fled to neighbouring countries because of the regime of Milosevic applied towards Albanians.

I honestly believe that if Milosevic acutally treated Albanians, Croats, Bosnians fairly just like Canada's relationship with Quebec than Jugoslavia might have been preserved, Montenegro for surely would still be in union if the wars in the 90's never would have happend.

All because of Milosevic's/ Nationalist dream to create a greater Serbia and the because he tried to deny the will of others to become independent.
(Skiff, 19 December 2009 02:04)

Skiff:
1. In 1989 autonomy of Kosovo wasn't revoke, but back to the situation before 1974. From 1990 until 1999 still existed Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.
2. After 1974 albanian authorities of Kosovo can ignore authorities of Serbia, beecouse 1974 constitutiuon gave them veto right.
3. From 1980 in Kosovo started antiserbian mobs (eg. burning of Patriarchate of Peć, attacks against K-Serbs etc.). In province was chaos and local albanian government doing nothing.
4. When these thousands of Albanians started to escape?? When albanian KLA organization started war against Serbia and NATO started airstrikes (hundreds of Albanians were killed by KLA, other hundreds by NATO bombs).
5. Do You remember how many thousands of Kurds were killed by Saddam Hussein?? So why USA defend Iraq integrity????

Johny, Please read my comment again. I never said or implied what you claim.

I was answering a comment from someone else who said that Albanians had to convert to Islam because Catholic priests did not have authority from Vatican to perform a mass in secret.

All I said is that for firm Catholics they were prepared to renounce Christ altogether in order to worship someone else. Well, not exact words but same meaning. So where do you get this one religion is better than the other rubbish?

Please point out any sentence in my reply which has that meaning.

Until you can do that, please do not distort what I say.

Denis, I say the same to you as I do to Johny.
What have I twisted. Please refer me to a sentence which I have twisted your or someone else's words.

All I said is that for firm Catholics they were prepared to renounce Christ altogether in order to worship someone else.

(Peggy, 16 December 2009 01:53)

Islam does not demand that converts renounce Christ - he remains a highly respected figure in Islam. (The same goes for Christian saints and other Biblical personages.) Muslims do not "worship" Muhammad - he is God's (last) prophet, it is only God who is worshiped.

You should also remember that in the Middle Ages, religion was not solely a matter of personal belief - it was necessary to be married by some official religious body, for example, for your children not to be treated as bastards, with all that meant for inheritance, for example. Islam could seem a very sensible alternative, with no Catholic priests available.

'Isn't onether denomination of Christianity preferable to renouncing Christ?'

Apparently not. They divided the Christian world in half over the distinctions that seem negligible to you.

There are Christians and then there are Albanians. There are Muslims then there are Albanians. I will talk about myself here as the representative of the average Albanian (I think I'm pretty average). I am of Christian background (both Catholic and Orthodox). I also am of Muslim background. Whatever this might mean. I am supposed to be both but I am none. I am Albanian. I am not a Christian, I am not a Muslim. I am Albanian. My soul does not depend on a priest or on a mullah and it certainly does not depend whether or not I believe in fairy tales of speaking serpents and speaking bushes. I will turn into a Budhist on the spot if that means preserving my people, my culture, my nationality. Do you know why? Because religion does not make me. Religion is not who I am. Religion does not define me in any way or shape. What defines me is the language I speak; the customs I follow, traditions, nationality. That is what makes me and my people different from the rest of the world. That is the average Albanian for you.
Now a devout follower of the religious doctrines has a problem with that kind of reasoning, or even one who is not devout but just blindly follows such doctrines without questioning. To such a person that kind of reasoning not only is incomprehensible but more importantly it is sacrilegious and heretic. There lies the difficulty in understanding such concepts.
By the way, that is not to say I don't believe in God or that most Albanians don't believe in God. Some do some don't. Its just that we see a separation between God and religion. Through experience we have come to learn that religion being man-made is flawed. It being flawed has most times worked against us, in terms of nationality then for us. At times its been introduced to weaken us as a people.( I'd be glad to give you concrete examples). From this comes everything that I stated about myself as the average Albanian earlier.

That's exactly right. Malavi recognized the Independence of Kosova today:) with many more to follow.
Thank you Malavi.
(Nelli_Canada, 16 December 2009 20:36)

Nelli - I waiting for time when Malavi recognize independent Quebec. I think - You will be also very happy at this time ;)

Nelli - I waiting for time when Malavi recognize independent Quebec. I think - You will be also very happy at this time ;)
(Milan, 17 December 2009 14:51)



Independent Quebec???

I live in Canada and last time i checked the people of Quebec voted in a referendum not to separate from Canada.

Compare the rights that Quebecers enjoys in Canada to that of the K-Alb when they were under serbia.
They are oposite like night and day.

Independent Quebec???

I live in Canada and last time i checked the people of Quebec voted in a referendum not to separate from Canada.

Compare the rights that Quebecers enjoys in Canada to that of the K-Alb when they were under serbia.
They are oposite like night and day.
(Skiff, 18 December 2009 03:18)
And do You remember that 49,42% of Quebec populiation votes "Yes"?? About half of Quebec population (more than 2,3 million peoples!!) don't like to live in one country with Canada - more than Albanians lived in Kosovo. Only becouse votes of immigrants and natives - Quebec is still part of Canada.

And do You remember that 49,42% of Quebec populiation votes "Yes"?? About half of Quebec population (more than 2,3 million peoples!!) don't like to live in one country with Canada - more than Albanians lived in Kosovo. Only becouse votes of immigrants and natives - Quebec is still part of Canada.


Yes i know the vote was close but it would not be wise for Quebec to separate, Quebec can only manintain its fullest potential in the Canadian Federation, However if another referendum were to take place and Quebecers actually voted to separate, Canada will surely respect the will of the people of Quebece wether they like it or not.

The Quebecers get their equal share of representation,

government documents, schools across canada practise french and even food labels have English and French writtin < these are just a few examples,



Kosova got its autonomy illegaly revoked, Milosevic also shut down albanian run radios, Tv stations schools were no longer taught in Albaninan ect.....

wheres the Albanian Rep?
on top of that around 800,000 Albanians fled to neighbouring countries because of the regime of Milosevic applied towards Albanians.

I honestly believe that if Milosevic acutally treated Albanians, Croats, Bosnians fairly just like Canada's relationship with Quebec than Jugoslavia might have been preserved, Montenegro for surely would still be in union if the wars in the 90's never would have happend.

All because of Milosevic's/ Nationalist dream to create a greater Serbia and the because he tried to deny the will of others to become independent.