ICJ Kosovo UDI case hearing ends

ICJ verdict analyzers should also analyze this.

In the Balkans, like in other areas of the world where family members and neighbors have been feuding and massacring one another for centuries over land,sometimes over inches of land---old habits die hard.That mentality is in the genes by now with these people.
If the West doesn't bring these people to the table and make the Serbs "happy", whose land was stolen,the West will then be "asking" for human nature to take it's course in making things right on her own---and we all know how ugly that can
get.
I say give all back to Serbia what is legally and rightfully hers, and they can all live happily ever after,and grow stuff and sell it to the EU. So far Kosovo got away with a huge cache of harvested Serbian organs,we'll just have to wait and see how long they get away with the stolen Serbian territory.

ylber:

No need to write nonsense. You know very well you albanians are to blame for the conflict. It's not Serbs who started killing and kidnapping innocent people, it was you albanians. You albanians never wanted to live in peace with Serbs, your ultimate goal was to steal Kosmet. We will never back down to albanian terror, never! Kosmet is Serbian land! america occupiers won't be there forever.

Kosova 16 Serbia 13 If You call this overwhelming win for Serbia, Then I dont know what to say other then do the math again.
(zulu_blanc, 11 December 2009 14:10)
--
Today my friend, it's 2-0 in Serbia's favour. The closing of this part is an undeniable win for Serbia. Now remind me, what was Saudi Arabia's legal argument? Or didn't you realise it didn't have one? Also, 15 countries repeating practically the same argument isn't really going to change much, especially when the argument were pretty weak. At least those arguing in Serbia's favour argued it strongly from different angles.

Cheers mate!

What do you really expect is going to happen? I mean this seriously. Sit down, be realistic and ask yourself, what do I think or expect will REALISTICALLY happen? That the advisory opinion is going to be vehemently and undoubtedly in Serbia’s favor, at which point all the countries that recognized Kosovo will revoke this recognition and apologize to Serbia, at which point the Albanians of Kosovo will come back to the negotiating table and accept Autonomy within Serbia and then we will all live happily ever after? Are you serious? Come on people let’s let go of these pipedreams, progress is passing us by. Most Serbs have never been to Kosovo nor do they have any intention of visiting. Let go of this issue that is keeping you ignorant and in the dark while your leadership is leading your country down the drain towards bankruptcy and selling your valuable assets for dirt cheap to Russia, who by the way doesn’t care about Serbia but is using you and your people to weaken the EU. If you cared about international law you would have never allowed the events that happened in Bosnia and Kosovo. The indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians.

Finally, now we waite until their outcome, which of course will be in Kosovo's favour and 2-3 countries will recognize befor summer, followed by another 10 until end of 2010 and finally joining UN in 2011 and being granted visa-liberazation.

By 2012 Serbia takes the giant step by accepting reality and officially recognizing Kosovo and this issue finally goes in history archive. In 2016 both Kosovo and Serbia join EU as seperate countries and Serbia sees Kosovo as an important trading partner with Kosovo's 2.8 million population.

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own
(bob, 11 December 2009 14:53)


Wake up man,cause Kosova has been independent since June 1999. I couldn'tcare less what RS does.

We heard that one of arguments used by America at the ICJ was that UNSCR 1244 uses the wording Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and no Serbia, and so UNSCR 1244 is no longer valid.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia then changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro, and it did not change its name to Serbia, Montenegro, and Kosovo.

After Montenegro became independent, what was left was Serbia with its province of Kosovo.

The country to which UNSCR applies is to Serbia, and if Kosovo were a province of Montenegro, then UNSCR 1244 would apply to Montenegro.

If things were that simple, then the Republic of Srpska could just change its name and say that the Dayton Peace Accords to not apply to it.

It's better to have a solution that leaves both sides a little aggrieved than one that gives one side everything it wants and the other nothing, to the extent that they'll probably be plotting revenge for generations to come.
(Sam, 11 December 2009 13:51)

Kosova has finally gotten the monkey of it's back, there is no going back. Serbia has thrown everything including the kitchen sink at Kosova over the last several decades and failed. There is no revenge plot that can shake the will of those people, they've seen it all. Kosova will continue to play a strong hand and master it's own affairs whether it's neighbor to the north likes it or not. The next time Serbia will be in court is to settle reparation lawsuits with Kosova for the thousands of civilians killed and maimed during Milosevic era.

What happened with Laos??

I thought there are 3 countries today...

Anyhow the Venezuelan:

"The (ethnic) Albanian population of Kosovo enjoys all minority rights within Serbia, and there is no basis for independence to be declared, he stated"

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on thei faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly

Serbia argued before the court that the ethnic Albanian proclamation was in violation of international law, and was joined in this stance by Russia, China, Cyprus, Romania, Spain, Argentina, Vietnam, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, Bolivia and Brazil.

You can have the above-mentioned countries, I will stick at any given moment with below-mentioned countries.

The Kosovo Albanian representatives, who took part in the proceedings as "the authors of the unilateral declaration of independence", argued to the contrary and were supported by UK, U.S., Albania, Saudi Arabia, France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Jordan, and Croatia.

oh, I forgat Burundi WHO?

And no one here could care less what you think, Kosovo-USA. You just come here to create animosity between Serb and Albanian bloggers. You have never made one constructive comment. Anyway, if you look at the countries standing behind Serbia, Russia, China, Brazil, to name a few, you have quite and economic and political block there. And don't forget, China owns the USA. The old saying, money talks, BS walks, may very well come into play here. It will be interesting.

Zoran!

In a court just because you speak last it does not mean that you have won, they will only remember your argument or that you are right.
Anyway Serbia opened up a can of worms that when the court rules in favor of Kosovo even countries like Spain and Greece will recognize.

If they rule against Kosovo than the independence will be there will take a little longer to be a UN member but one day Kosovo will. This court was Vuk Jeremic's way of telling the Serbian public we did all we could and we lost.

So either way Serbia will never get back Kosovo.

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own

(J,S., 11 December 2009 10:02)

This is good on paper and maybe 20 years late. Not only Croatia but alos Montenegro does not want to be in union with Serbia. And who in Bosnia will be happy to go back after years of fighting and be a minority in their.

these are people not just lego blocks.

On the last of the hearings, representatives of Vietnam and Venezuela will defend Serbia
--
Remind me, who is representing the authors of the UDI today? Oh, looks like we'll close the case with an overwhelming win for Serbia.

On the last of the hearings, representatives of Vietnam and Venezuela will defend Serbia
--
Remind me, who is representing the authors of the UDI today? Oh, looks like we'll close the case with an overwhelming win for Serbia.
(Zoran, 11 December 2009 11:45

Kosova 16 Serbia 13 If You call this overwhelming win for Serbia, Then I dont know what to say other then do the math again.

"How could it be that negotiations can cause instability, but not a decision made by one side which was dissatisfied during the negotiations, Fleming wondered. Venezuela "

I feel sorry for you mr Fleming. The Serbian side must of misinformed you to the bottom. The one sidedness came from the constitution changes, from the autonomy revocation, from the instable military and paramilitary killings.

I understand that you want to kill 2 birds with one stone, but rather you just look stonened.

"Burundi's representative also took part in the hearing, to say that Kosovo will continue to exist as an entity regardless of the court's decision."

-- I think at the end of the day, the Burundian position, of all representatives, will be predict the most likely outcome.

I dont understand all the bickering and self claimed little victories that each side clams daily on this site!! i think the lack of news and a bit of boredom topped with nationalism is the cause for much of nonsense writen in here, and i must say that most of the comments are so far detached from reality.
Fact(reality) Kosova shall never ever be ruled by Serbia.
Fact (reality) the only way that Kosova will be a part of Serbia is, if it is ocupied in a classic military way (WAR).
fact (reality) majority of fredom loving Democratic countries of the world have recognized the Independance of Kosova.
fact (reality) the most undemocratic dictatorship, human rights abusing countries are supporting Serbia.
FACT.

(Hyll, 11 December 2009 19:04)
You amuze people with your statements.
1. Kosovo is de jure Serbian territory (Res 1244) FACT
2. North of Ibar is de facto ruled by Serbia. FACT
3. Kosovo will forever and ever be a black hole that no-one wants to have anything in common with if you dont behave towards the international community. FACT
4. You can never ever be a member of EU or UN (5 states in EU will never recognize and 129 states in UN have not recognized). FACT
5. The ones you claiming to be freedom-loving countries are forcefully or volountarily sending home aprox. 150 ex refugees a week because they will not have them in their countries. (Germany alone have 15800 to go out of 17000. Netherlands have 5500, US have 3000, Sweden have 6400, Denmark have 1100, UK have 1000. All these people are already decided to leave for Kosovo.) Do you think the EU will grant visas for you? You bet NO. FACT

first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000 if that in real numbers in in south serbia your about 50,000, and the total population of serbia with kosovo is 10 million so your lucky if your that 17% i gave you and Serbs in the entire country is over 8 million. and i agree there should be only autonomy for our Serbian province.
(tom, 11 December 2009 15:14)

Tom your data, percentages and analysis must be coming straight from the books of TYCO and ENRON.

Well, it was really interesting to see the different arguments.

Really interesting arguments and positions, pro-UDI, of France and UK. Nevertheless, we Romanians have a really soft spot for professors Pellet (FR) and Crawford (UK) after Romania vs. Ukraine at ICJ.

Really disappointing pro-UDI presentations of Bulgaria and USA. I really don’t understand how Bulgaria can afford sending Ahtisaari’s former coffee boy to speak “in the name of the Government of Bulgaria” and just screwing up the whole thing with a biased presentation.

US presentation seemd rather political and arrogant. A second hand adviser of the US Department using words like “ineptly put”, when referring to prof. Lowe of Oxford (counsel for Cyprus) statements, is more than relevant. Plus, putting all the weight on the fact that Ahtisaari said independence is the only way, seems rather unconvincing.

Russia and Argentina seemed rather fixed on ideas, China rather franc, Spain focused and Romania was too focused on counter-attacking other’s arguments.

I think the RSFY-RFY-Serbia thing is clear, as well as the argument of the narrowness of the question. Focusing on that, US only showed that they are trying to win by using cheap procedural tricks. In this respect, the requests of today for answers to “the claims heard during the proceedings that international law does not prohibit secession, as well as those regarding the promises made by the participants in Kosovo's 2007 parliamentary elections that they would declare independence, and the provisions of the 1999 Rambouillet agreement.” are quite self explanatory.

To answer EA’s question of yesterday, I think that we should read the entire question, cause you missed “by the Self Governing …”. Please don’t forget the “date critique”.

So, in the end, it’s about the right to secession and establishing if Ahtisaari’s recommendations/opinions are sources of international law.

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on thei faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly
(ben, 11 December 2009 14:15)

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on their faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly
(ben, 11 December 2009 14:15)


first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000 if that in real numbers in in south serbia your about 50,000, and the total population of serbia with kosovo is 10 million so your lucky if your that 17% i gave you and Serbs in the entire country is over 8 million. and i agree there should be only autonomy for our Serbian province.

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own
(bob, 11 December 2009 14:53)
--
Bob, Kosovo cannot achieve independence even in the highly unlikely event of winning this case. Independence is irreversibly blocked by major powers in the world and that is not going to change regardless. Serbia has powerful friends.

In the mean time, not much has changed in Kosovo for decades. The status quo remains and our ethnic Albanian citizens refuse to negotiate peace and prosperity.

Ylber said:

"Most Serbs have never been to Kosovo nor do they have any intention of visiting."

True, but what has this got to do with whose Kosovo is?
Most Australians have never been to Perth or Sydney or Melbourne (depending on where they live) but this doesn't mean that one state should now break away and the rest of Australia should welcome it.

You really don't present a valid argument at all.
Most Alabinians have never been to Kosovo either or out of Tirana for that matter, but do you think now that Albania should break up into areas of where the minorities are a majority?

I may rarely use one of my cars but it doesn't give anyone the right to drive it away and own it.

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture.

Zoran

Its interesting how your math is done and furthermore you claim that the 15 countries have repeated the same argument ! very interesting view indeed.

But what was most interesting during the proceedings, countries that supported Serbia’s stance on the issue would quote books on international law and countries that were supporting Kosova had the authors of the books they wrote on international law, yet supporting Kosova and clarifying what international law is to those who have no respect to them.

Another interesting analogy is that the very countries that have supported Serbia if you look at their Human Rights Record you’d wish they did not participate on the proceedings, but once that supported Kosovo.

Do you guys ever read your posts and try to analise?
Some say Kosovo is a black hole, Albanians are terrorists, drug dealers, organ snatchers, aliens from Mars and so on.
Now how do you expect to make Albanians happy?
Would it be you either you stay with us or you can leave?

Is Serbia ready to make Albanian language as an official language?

Would you give more than autonomy less than indipendence for both Kosovo and Presevo valley?

There would've been more requests like these.

I don't think Serbia would.

They know this but they're acting like they're fighting for Kosovo just to keep Serbians quite.

Kosovo it's gone forever.
Usa and most of EU wouldn't recognise it if they weren't sure.

'At least those arguing in Serbia's favour argued it strongly from different angles.'

Romania, for example, said the Court should ignore the question actually before them and consider "the true legal question" of the legality of secession. Romania then proceeded to argue about secession, apparently conceding that a declaration of independence is not itself illegal under international law. They got caught out by one of the UK representatives who followed them, however, for omitting part of a paragraph they cited in defense of their position that changed its meaning. He was sure to notice this, since he had written it.

"Anyway Serbia opened up a can of worms that when the court rules in favor of Kosovo even countries like Spain and Greece will recognize."
UNE

Une thanks but if we here in Greece need your opinion about what we will decide we will ask for it. Until then we decide who we will recognize and not you!

J.S.
yugo can go to hell, you make your own alliance without the serbs, the biggest mistake in history the serbs made was to forgive the croats, muslims, albanians after they all lost WWI and WWII and the serbs won both times and instead of making just serbia and letting the losers fight for scraps we forgave them and look where it got us. Republika Srpska Zeta, Krajina, Srpska Republika, Majko Srbijo...yugoslavia is dead forever.

I read a comment from a reader who uses the same initials that I use, but I just want to let others know that I did not write it.

It does make some interesting points for thought, but I think trying to hold that many Referendums makes it a difficult prospect.

The comment that I am referring to, and that I did not write is the next paragraph.

The best deal for the region would be a new Yugoslavia, which contains Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia (and possibly Montenegro). These countries share language, history, and will have very close ties in the future anyway. As capital I suggest Sarajevo; the only city in the region that bears enough history to become a true metropolis. What's more, Sarajevo is inhabited by a mix of all the concerned populations; Serbs, Croatians, and Muslims (Bosnians). Montenegrins are Serbs anyway, so there won't be a problem for them to join. I am already in love with this new Yugoslavia, even if it takes years for its creation. I strongly believe it is the best solution for the Balkans. Main obstacle: Croatian nationalism.

I really have not given that comment much thought, and I am not sure of an opinion on that.

I really just wanted to set the record straight that it was another JS that wrote it.

Zorane, let the judges decide which argument was weak and which not. What we summarize the whole ICJ session and when arguing in a mature way then we clearly saw that the majority argued in Kosovo's favor, not Serbia's. I'm sure that even the judges noticed that, together with the fact what Burundi stated: the independent Kosovo is a undeniable reality.

'And who in Bosnia will be happy to go back after years of fighting and be a minority in their.'

The Serbs who constitute 40% of Bosnia would. And anyway Muslims are already a minority in Bosnia.

But this isn't realistic and definitely won't be on the table for the forseeable future as hardly anyone would want it.

Zoran 2-0 For Serbia Today yes it would be good it its was a Football match. And just Because more Countries went for Defending Kosovo does not mean success wither.

What it matters is substance and even more situation on the ground.

In Palestine thee is a wall and this wall is illegal but still there. And ICJ said IT IS ILLEGAL.

On the same time we know they will not say this in Regards to Kosovo.

Its done no more road blocks just wait till Summer have the ruling Vuk saying Serbia has won it has gained what it was hers.

And nothing changes slowly People will move on with their life.

well that`s tru today serbia win with 2countries who really respect the freedom of the people,,,???? but pleas forget to win the all case,,, serbia did the worst mistake when she ask this court to make a decision on Kosovo because i dont think so me or everybody else on here EU IS GOING TO TAKE US back again 20 years and start all over again with war,,,,

first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000
---------------------------

If the minorities make up 10% of Kosovar population than:

.90 * 2,000,000 = 1,800,000

are Kosovars of Albanian ethnicity.

Thank You!!

just give up on kosovo is about time you do

I think the best solution for Kosovo would be either to keep things pretty much as they are now, so nothing would happen to the Kosovo institutions and they would be safeguarded against Serbian. The only thing that should change is that this should happen within Serbia, even though Serbia should have no real power over Kosovo.

The other option is second republic status, just without the right to secede that other republics had. If we change the country to Serbia and Kosovo then Kosovo is not independent but not part of Serbia. Problem solved.

It's better to have a solution that leaves both sides a little aggrieved than one that gives one side everything it wants and the other nothing, to the extent that they'll probably be plotting revenge for generations to come.

Three judges asked for replies to questions. The judge from Morocco asked whether the question of independence/secession came up during the election campaign before 17/02/07. (He's apparently worried about whether the Assembly was acting beyond its powers.)

I'm under the impression that this was precisely what Thaci's party ran on, but I wasn't paying much attention then. Could anyone who does remember comment on this?

I will give the unbiased reality in Kosovo right now. 1.serbia controls areas above ibar river and strpce municipality while Albanians control everything else.2. Kosovos longest border is with Serbia proper which leaves a majority of kosovos border undefined because Belgrade does not recognize it. 3.Albanians are de facto independant but still technically under Serbian control because they can not join any international inst. Like un or eu without Serbian Spanish Russian Greek Chinese approval.4. Serbia just built one of the lArgest military installations in the western Balkans on the administrative border with Kosovo idk but I think hat is there for the future.5. Serbia has 250000 Serbs from Kosovo as refugees and I think they will start building settlements in Kosovo like the Israelis in palesinte.6. Kosovo will always be an open ended issue because Kosovo rules it's Albanian population while Serbia has legal and indirect control over Kosovo.

If the backers of the Kosovo Albanians said that the people of Kosovo have a right to secede and to handle their own future. Okay fine! But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians??
Come on WEST!! Be fair to all….

So the best arguments for UDI by the UK and US - the biggest supporters of such illegality rests on ICJ not havung legality to consider what Serbia has asked of it and if it does that because UNSC Resolution 1244 did not rule out UDI it means it can !!! Oh dear is this it really I was expecting more but clearly they must realise how much thin ground they are on!

The US and UK have created more grounds grounds for Serbia to persue ever further its continued Soveirgn and territorial integrity over its UN recognised province.

The US and UK have clealry entangled themselves in nothing but their own web of deceit and the years ahead will prove this all the more. I can see why the US and UK were completly agaisnt this but here we are and what did they offer in suppport for their illegal recognition - no legal support what so ever!!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

Would you give more than autonomy less than indipendence for both Kosovo and Presevo valley?
(Whatever you say, 11 December 2009 23:31)
--
You are a bit behind the times my friend. Didn't you know this is already on the table? Serbia has already extended its offer to ethnic Albanians in Presevo valley. It's all part of the self-rule proposal.

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.
(Zoran, 12 December 2009 00:41)


What should we do if we negotiate and came to an agreement to stay within Serbia and the nationalist came to power a couple of years later ? What would happend to albanians and their rights in that case ?


And I don't understand this but why should Kosovo negotiate with Serbia when Kosovo is now independent and recognized of all needed countrys of the world. Kosovo in fact dosen't need a UN-seat and we can be part of Nato when the time comes. EU is blocked for Serbia until it recognize Kosovo but when Serbia does so in the future for the EU-carrot then also the five remaining countrys who still haven't recognized Kosovo will do so and then Kosovo also will be an EU member. And after that Kosovo will have a seat at UN.


Serbia with Tadic in force will never give up EU membership because of an impossible hope to regain control over Kosovo. Everybody knowes that Serbia has no chance to regain control over Kosovo in no way. Not as long as there are albanians living there. Only with war Serbia might have a small chance.

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.
(Zoran, 12 December 2009 00:41)

Huh, let me think, I rather wait for the Nationalists, they have done wonders for the Albanian cause in the last 20 years.
With the nationalists in power we might even convince the Western powers to join Albania with Kosova.

now guys you can be happy. as well chavez's venezuela is on your side...

If the backers of the Kosovo Albanians said that the people of Kosovo have a right to secede and to handle their own future. Okay fine! But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians??
Come on WEST!! Be fair to all….
(PRO-SERBIA, 12 December 2009 06:43)

Sure they do. However as I recall there has not been a global wide conflict where global-wide solutions are needed to end the global conflict. So right now it is not necessary and wise to put all this issues in the same group as each one of them has its own specificities. Each one should be dealt separately simply for the fact that none of these conflicts are in any way related to each other. Meaning that if the conflict in Palestine continues or stops it does not affect the Kurds. If the Kurd conflict continues or stops that certainly does not affect Tibet or Sudan. There is no connection and certainly there has been no effect of these conflicts on each other For these reasons it is only natural to deal with them separately and one by one.
Another reason is. Why should one of this conflict remain hostage of the inability to solve another conflict that is half a world apart and that have nothing to do with each other?

Albanian: What is your problem?! First of all that was a bit prejudice of you to tell me to go back to Pakistan and where I'm from is Canada which is okay with you,right? Finally I'll have you know or remind you that I've stood up for some Albanians and how do you thank me? You unjustly criticize me and you've acted ungrateful.

Albanian, what you said about Pakistan does offend me and also when you informed this Nadeem person that we ( you & other Albanians) don't need Nadeem's help, that to me ,sounds like you discriminate him for being non-Albanian. In fact Albanian you may not believe in religion but if Albanian Muslims,Catholics & Orthodox Christians are devoted to their respective religions than that should be their right.Also I assume that you cannot prevent other Albanians ( especially if they're not your relatives)from looking up to Nadeem and perhaps associating with him in real life.Finally if you know what is right than you'll learn not to be bossy to your fellow Albanians and I honestly feel that you should apologize to Nadeem for upsetting him.

Albanian:

Why are you offended by Nadeem's pro-Albanian views?? That's not right what you're doing.About myself I am a Muslim non-Albanian by the way and I ain't letting you prevent me from associating with & helping out some Albanians.In fact I'm going to prefer Albanian Muslims & non-Muslims to other Albanian Muslims & non-Muslims for the right reasons and finally I'll prefer Albanians & non-Albanians to other Albanians & non-Albanians for legitimate reasons.

Ratko:Even if some Albanians were to blame for this conflict you're not going to think that it was okay for Serb forces to target Albanian civilians especially innocent civilians.You made statements about not backing down from so called Albanian terror,well,I'm not ever backing down from condoning the punisment of those who oppressed the Albanians and I'm also not backing down from wanting to be exceptionally nice to truly likeable Albanians instead of people who I have appropriate reasons to lack interest in. Finaly with regards to Staff's comments about Germany and a few other countries voluntarily or forcefully asking Kosovar ex-refugees to leave the country where did you (Staff) here that? In fact I'm bothered and or confused about what those countries are doing to these Kosovar ex-refugees.

We won, no we one. It's a bit silly really, isn't it?

Hopefully this court will not be as corrupt as the institution that gave a Nobel prize for peace to an American president. You gotta wonder if we're dreaming. (a nightmare that is)

If what Staff is saying is true about these various countries that are perhaps forcibly making Kosovar ex-refugees foresake the countries where they sought refugee status than I'm shocked.I hope my country (Canada) essentially won't kick out legal Kosavar ex-refugees from my country. One thing is to be certain is that when it comes to anti-Albanians is that they should take it in stride that some Albanians I would do certain things for them instead of some non-Albanians,in fact,some Albanian Muslims I would do certain things for them instead of non-Albanian Muslims because of their actions as can be expected.

'But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians?? '

From the questions a couple of the ICJ judges asked at the end of the hearing, it seems like the court intends to deal with such matters. I thought they'd try to stay away from the issue of when a part of a state can secede and be recognized by other countries, but we may actually get some answers to what the international law will be on that.

Although I'm slightly oblivious to certain criticisms I feel what's imperative to clarify is that when I made statements about treating some Albanian Muslims better than non-Albanian Muslims is that I NEVER implied that every Albanian Muslim be treated better than every single Muslim non-Albanian,besides,I have good rapport with some Muslim non-Albanians and there're some who I have provided Eid presents for.Finally when I expressed confusion about Staff's claim regarding certain nations "letting go" of Kosovar-Albanian ex refugees is that I would be truly bothered if these nations were to let go of evey single Kosovar-Albanian ex-refugee.

I will give the unbiased reality in Kosovo right now. 1.serbia controls areas above ibar river and strpce municipality while Albanians control everything else.2. Kosovos longest border is with Serbia proper which leaves a majority of kosovos border undefined because Belgrade does not recognize it. 3.Albanians are de facto independant but still technically under Serbian control because they can not join any international inst. Like un or eu without Serbian Spanish Russian Greek Chinese approval.4. Serbia just built one of the lArgest military installations in the western Balkans on the administrative border with Kosovo idk but I think hat is there for the future.5. Serbia has 250000 Serbs from Kosovo as refugees and I think they will start building settlements in Kosovo like the Israelis in palesinte.6. Kosovo will always be an open ended issue because Kosovo rules it's Albanian population while Serbia has legal and indirect control over Kosovo.
(Anonymous, 12 December 2009 17:48)
You may think you succeeded in painting an unbiased picture but your bias is blatantly obvious.

some Albanian Muslims I would do certain things for them instead of non-Albanian Muslims because of their actions as can be expected."
--

Like start a Jihad or a suicide bomb? Go to Pakistan or where you are from. We don't you need your "help," we're Albanians, not Muslims, Catholics or Orthodox

On the last of the hearings, representatives of Vietnam and Venezuela will defend Serbia
--
Remind me, who is representing the authors of the UDI today? Oh, looks like we'll close the case with an overwhelming win for Serbia.

ylber:

No need to write nonsense. You know very well you albanians are to blame for the conflict. It's not Serbs who started killing and kidnapping innocent people, it was you albanians. You albanians never wanted to live in peace with Serbs, your ultimate goal was to steal Kosmet. We will never back down to albanian terror, never! Kosmet is Serbian land! america occupiers won't be there forever.

Finally, now we waite until their outcome, which of course will be in Kosovo's favour and 2-3 countries will recognize befor summer, followed by another 10 until end of 2010 and finally joining UN in 2011 and being granted visa-liberazation.

By 2012 Serbia takes the giant step by accepting reality and officially recognizing Kosovo and this issue finally goes in history archive. In 2016 both Kosovo and Serbia join EU as seperate countries and Serbia sees Kosovo as an important trading partner with Kosovo's 2.8 million population.

I dont understand all the bickering and self claimed little victories that each side clams daily on this site!! i think the lack of news and a bit of boredom topped with nationalism is the cause for much of nonsense writen in here, and i must say that most of the comments are so far detached from reality.
Fact(reality) Kosova shall never ever be ruled by Serbia.
Fact (reality) the only way that Kosova will be a part of Serbia is, if it is ocupied in a classic military way (WAR).
fact (reality) majority of fredom loving Democratic countries of the world have recognized the Independance of Kosova.
fact (reality) the most undemocratic dictatorship, human rights abusing countries are supporting Serbia.
FACT.

What do you really expect is going to happen? I mean this seriously. Sit down, be realistic and ask yourself, what do I think or expect will REALISTICALLY happen? That the advisory opinion is going to be vehemently and undoubtedly in Serbia’s favor, at which point all the countries that recognized Kosovo will revoke this recognition and apologize to Serbia, at which point the Albanians of Kosovo will come back to the negotiating table and accept Autonomy within Serbia and then we will all live happily ever after? Are you serious? Come on people let’s let go of these pipedreams, progress is passing us by. Most Serbs have never been to Kosovo nor do they have any intention of visiting. Let go of this issue that is keeping you ignorant and in the dark while your leadership is leading your country down the drain towards bankruptcy and selling your valuable assets for dirt cheap to Russia, who by the way doesn’t care about Serbia but is using you and your people to weaken the EU. If you cared about international law you would have never allowed the events that happened in Bosnia and Kosovo. The indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians.

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own
(bob, 11 December 2009 14:53)


Wake up man,cause Kosova has been independent since June 1999. I couldn'tcare less what RS does.

We heard that one of arguments used by America at the ICJ was that UNSCR 1244 uses the wording Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and no Serbia, and so UNSCR 1244 is no longer valid.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia then changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro, and it did not change its name to Serbia, Montenegro, and Kosovo.

After Montenegro became independent, what was left was Serbia with its province of Kosovo.

The country to which UNSCR applies is to Serbia, and if Kosovo were a province of Montenegro, then UNSCR 1244 would apply to Montenegro.

If things were that simple, then the Republic of Srpska could just change its name and say that the Dayton Peace Accords to not apply to it.

I read a comment from a reader who uses the same initials that I use, but I just want to let others know that I did not write it.

It does make some interesting points for thought, but I think trying to hold that many Referendums makes it a difficult prospect.

The comment that I am referring to, and that I did not write is the next paragraph.

The best deal for the region would be a new Yugoslavia, which contains Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia (and possibly Montenegro). These countries share language, history, and will have very close ties in the future anyway. As capital I suggest Sarajevo; the only city in the region that bears enough history to become a true metropolis. What's more, Sarajevo is inhabited by a mix of all the concerned populations; Serbs, Croatians, and Muslims (Bosnians). Montenegrins are Serbs anyway, so there won't be a problem for them to join. I am already in love with this new Yugoslavia, even if it takes years for its creation. I strongly believe it is the best solution for the Balkans. Main obstacle: Croatian nationalism.

I really have not given that comment much thought, and I am not sure of an opinion on that.

I really just wanted to set the record straight that it was another JS that wrote it.

Serbia argued before the court that the ethnic Albanian proclamation was in violation of international law, and was joined in this stance by Russia, China, Cyprus, Romania, Spain, Argentina, Vietnam, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, Bolivia and Brazil.

You can have the above-mentioned countries, I will stick at any given moment with below-mentioned countries.

The Kosovo Albanian representatives, who took part in the proceedings as "the authors of the unilateral declaration of independence", argued to the contrary and were supported by UK, U.S., Albania, Saudi Arabia, France, Germany, Holland, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Jordan, and Croatia.

oh, I forgat Burundi WHO?

Kosova 16 Serbia 13 If You call this overwhelming win for Serbia, Then I dont know what to say other then do the math again.
(zulu_blanc, 11 December 2009 14:10)
--
Today my friend, it's 2-0 in Serbia's favour. The closing of this part is an undeniable win for Serbia. Now remind me, what was Saudi Arabia's legal argument? Or didn't you realise it didn't have one? Also, 15 countries repeating practically the same argument isn't really going to change much, especially when the argument were pretty weak. At least those arguing in Serbia's favour argued it strongly from different angles.

Cheers mate!

On the last of the hearings, representatives of Vietnam and Venezuela will defend Serbia
--
Remind me, who is representing the authors of the UDI today? Oh, looks like we'll close the case with an overwhelming win for Serbia.
(Zoran, 11 December 2009 11:45

Kosova 16 Serbia 13 If You call this overwhelming win for Serbia, Then I dont know what to say other then do the math again.

It's better to have a solution that leaves both sides a little aggrieved than one that gives one side everything it wants and the other nothing, to the extent that they'll probably be plotting revenge for generations to come.
(Sam, 11 December 2009 13:51)

Kosova has finally gotten the monkey of it's back, there is no going back. Serbia has thrown everything including the kitchen sink at Kosova over the last several decades and failed. There is no revenge plot that can shake the will of those people, they've seen it all. Kosova will continue to play a strong hand and master it's own affairs whether it's neighbor to the north likes it or not. The next time Serbia will be in court is to settle reparation lawsuits with Kosova for the thousands of civilians killed and maimed during Milosevic era.

Zoran!

In a court just because you speak last it does not mean that you have won, they will only remember your argument or that you are right.
Anyway Serbia opened up a can of worms that when the court rules in favor of Kosovo even countries like Spain and Greece will recognize.

If they rule against Kosovo than the independence will be there will take a little longer to be a UN member but one day Kosovo will. This court was Vuk Jeremic's way of telling the Serbian public we did all we could and we lost.

So either way Serbia will never get back Kosovo.

ICJ verdict analyzers should also analyze this.

In the Balkans, like in other areas of the world where family members and neighbors have been feuding and massacring one another for centuries over land,sometimes over inches of land---old habits die hard.That mentality is in the genes by now with these people.
If the West doesn't bring these people to the table and make the Serbs "happy", whose land was stolen,the West will then be "asking" for human nature to take it's course in making things right on her own---and we all know how ugly that can
get.
I say give all back to Serbia what is legally and rightfully hers, and they can all live happily ever after,and grow stuff and sell it to the EU. So far Kosovo got away with a huge cache of harvested Serbian organs,we'll just have to wait and see how long they get away with the stolen Serbian territory.

(J,S., 11 December 2009 10:02)

This is good on paper and maybe 20 years late. Not only Croatia but alos Montenegro does not want to be in union with Serbia. And who in Bosnia will be happy to go back after years of fighting and be a minority in their.

these are people not just lego blocks.

"How could it be that negotiations can cause instability, but not a decision made by one side which was dissatisfied during the negotiations, Fleming wondered. Venezuela "

I feel sorry for you mr Fleming. The Serbian side must of misinformed you to the bottom. The one sidedness came from the constitution changes, from the autonomy revocation, from the instable military and paramilitary killings.

I understand that you want to kill 2 birds with one stone, but rather you just look stonened.

What happened with Laos??

I thought there are 3 countries today...

Anyhow the Venezuelan:

"The (ethnic) Albanian population of Kosovo enjoys all minority rights within Serbia, and there is no basis for independence to be declared, he stated"

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on thei faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on thei faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly
(ben, 11 December 2009 14:15)

1. now Albanians in Serbia with Kosova would have been somthing like > 27% of the total population and still for Venezuelan standards they would have been MINORITY.

2. Serbs in Kosova are 5% and they are NOT minority but a state constituent element.

Now we are definitively talking about VERYYYYY different standards.

Your values and ours are completely different.

Stay in your cultural ghetto and learn DEMOCRACY dear Venezuela – from Kosova of course.

P.S. but what Venezuela says is in line with the unilateral (K-A were not even invited to partecipate in the draft) constitution of Serbia of 2006 that without asking K-A again another time decided on their faith- they are Serbian minority.... way to learn democracy... Jordan exposed this clearly
(ben, 11 December 2009 14:15)


first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000 if that in real numbers in in south serbia your about 50,000, and the total population of serbia with kosovo is 10 million so your lucky if your that 17% i gave you and Serbs in the entire country is over 8 million. and i agree there should be only autonomy for our Serbian province.

I think the best solution for Kosovo would be either to keep things pretty much as they are now, so nothing would happen to the Kosovo institutions and they would be safeguarded against Serbian. The only thing that should change is that this should happen within Serbia, even though Serbia should have no real power over Kosovo.

The other option is second republic status, just without the right to secede that other republics had. If we change the country to Serbia and Kosovo then Kosovo is not independent but not part of Serbia. Problem solved.

It's better to have a solution that leaves both sides a little aggrieved than one that gives one side everything it wants and the other nothing, to the extent that they'll probably be plotting revenge for generations to come.

Zorane, let the judges decide which argument was weak and which not. What we summarize the whole ICJ session and when arguing in a mature way then we clearly saw that the majority argued in Kosovo's favor, not Serbia's. I'm sure that even the judges noticed that, together with the fact what Burundi stated: the independent Kosovo is a undeniable reality.

And no one here could care less what you think, Kosovo-USA. You just come here to create animosity between Serb and Albanian bloggers. You have never made one constructive comment. Anyway, if you look at the countries standing behind Serbia, Russia, China, Brazil, to name a few, you have quite and economic and political block there. And don't forget, China owns the USA. The old saying, money talks, BS walks, may very well come into play here. It will be interesting.

Zoran

Its interesting how your math is done and furthermore you claim that the 15 countries have repeated the same argument ! very interesting view indeed.

But what was most interesting during the proceedings, countries that supported Serbia’s stance on the issue would quote books on international law and countries that were supporting Kosova had the authors of the books they wrote on international law, yet supporting Kosova and clarifying what international law is to those who have no respect to them.

Another interesting analogy is that the very countries that have supported Serbia if you look at their Human Rights Record you’d wish they did not participate on the proceedings, but once that supported Kosovo.

first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000 if that in real numbers in in south serbia your about 50,000, and the total population of serbia with kosovo is 10 million so your lucky if your that 17% i gave you and Serbs in the entire country is over 8 million. and i agree there should be only autonomy for our Serbian province.
(tom, 11 December 2009 15:14)

Tom your data, percentages and analysis must be coming straight from the books of TYCO and ENRON.

well that`s tru today serbia win with 2countries who really respect the freedom of the people,,,???? but pleas forget to win the all case,,, serbia did the worst mistake when she ask this court to make a decision on Kosovo because i dont think so me or everybody else on here EU IS GOING TO TAKE US back again 20 years and start all over again with war,,,,

(Hyll, 11 December 2009 19:04)
You amuze people with your statements.
1. Kosovo is de jure Serbian territory (Res 1244) FACT
2. North of Ibar is de facto ruled by Serbia. FACT
3. Kosovo will forever and ever be a black hole that no-one wants to have anything in common with if you dont behave towards the international community. FACT
4. You can never ever be a member of EU or UN (5 states in EU will never recognize and 129 states in UN have not recognized). FACT
5. The ones you claiming to be freedom-loving countries are forcefully or volountarily sending home aprox. 150 ex refugees a week because they will not have them in their countries. (Germany alone have 15800 to go out of 17000. Netherlands have 5500, US have 3000, Sweden have 6400, Denmark have 1100, UK have 1000. All these people are already decided to leave for Kosovo.) Do you think the EU will grant visas for you? You bet NO. FACT

Do you guys ever read your posts and try to analise?
Some say Kosovo is a black hole, Albanians are terrorists, drug dealers, organ snatchers, aliens from Mars and so on.
Now how do you expect to make Albanians happy?
Would it be you either you stay with us or you can leave?

Is Serbia ready to make Albanian language as an official language?

Would you give more than autonomy less than indipendence for both Kosovo and Presevo valley?

There would've been more requests like these.

I don't think Serbia would.

They know this but they're acting like they're fighting for Kosovo just to keep Serbians quite.

Kosovo it's gone forever.
Usa and most of EU wouldn't recognise it if they weren't sure.

just give up on kosovo is about time you do

Zoran 2-0 For Serbia Today yes it would be good it its was a Football match. And just Because more Countries went for Defending Kosovo does not mean success wither.

What it matters is substance and even more situation on the ground.

In Palestine thee is a wall and this wall is illegal but still there. And ICJ said IT IS ILLEGAL.

On the same time we know they will not say this in Regards to Kosovo.

Its done no more road blocks just wait till Summer have the ruling Vuk saying Serbia has won it has gained what it was hers.

And nothing changes slowly People will move on with their life.

Ylber said:

"Most Serbs have never been to Kosovo nor do they have any intention of visiting."

True, but what has this got to do with whose Kosovo is?
Most Australians have never been to Perth or Sydney or Melbourne (depending on where they live) but this doesn't mean that one state should now break away and the rest of Australia should welcome it.

You really don't present a valid argument at all.
Most Alabinians have never been to Kosovo either or out of Tirana for that matter, but do you think now that Albania should break up into areas of where the minorities are a majority?

I may rarely use one of my cars but it doesn't give anyone the right to drive it away and own it.

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture.

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own

ill bet you anything if kosovo gets its independence republika srpska will automatically call for its own
(bob, 11 December 2009 14:53)
--
Bob, Kosovo cannot achieve independence even in the highly unlikely event of winning this case. Independence is irreversibly blocked by major powers in the world and that is not going to change regardless. Serbia has powerful friends.

In the mean time, not much has changed in Kosovo for decades. The status quo remains and our ethnic Albanian citizens refuse to negotiate peace and prosperity.

J.S.
yugo can go to hell, you make your own alliance without the serbs, the biggest mistake in history the serbs made was to forgive the croats, muslims, albanians after they all lost WWI and WWII and the serbs won both times and instead of making just serbia and letting the losers fight for scraps we forgave them and look where it got us. Republika Srpska Zeta, Krajina, Srpska Republika, Majko Srbijo...yugoslavia is dead forever.

"Anyway Serbia opened up a can of worms that when the court rules in favor of Kosovo even countries like Spain and Greece will recognize."
UNE

Une thanks but if we here in Greece need your opinion about what we will decide we will ask for it. Until then we decide who we will recognize and not you!

'And who in Bosnia will be happy to go back after years of fighting and be a minority in their.'

The Serbs who constitute 40% of Bosnia would. And anyway Muslims are already a minority in Bosnia.

But this isn't realistic and definitely won't be on the table for the forseeable future as hardly anyone would want it.

first off with kosovo you would be 17% not 27% i like how you albanians think your more than what you really are because in kosovo your about 1,500,000
---------------------------

If the minorities make up 10% of Kosovar population than:

.90 * 2,000,000 = 1,800,000

are Kosovars of Albanian ethnicity.

Thank You!!

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.
(Zoran, 12 December 2009 00:41)


What should we do if we negotiate and came to an agreement to stay within Serbia and the nationalist came to power a couple of years later ? What would happend to albanians and their rights in that case ?


And I don't understand this but why should Kosovo negotiate with Serbia when Kosovo is now independent and recognized of all needed countrys of the world. Kosovo in fact dosen't need a UN-seat and we can be part of Nato when the time comes. EU is blocked for Serbia until it recognize Kosovo but when Serbia does so in the future for the EU-carrot then also the five remaining countrys who still haven't recognized Kosovo will do so and then Kosovo also will be an EU member. And after that Kosovo will have a seat at UN.


Serbia with Tadic in force will never give up EU membership because of an impossible hope to regain control over Kosovo. Everybody knowes that Serbia has no chance to regain control over Kosovo in no way. Not as long as there are albanians living there. Only with war Serbia might have a small chance.

'At least those arguing in Serbia's favour argued it strongly from different angles.'

Romania, for example, said the Court should ignore the question actually before them and consider "the true legal question" of the legality of secession. Romania then proceeded to argue about secession, apparently conceding that a declaration of independence is not itself illegal under international law. They got caught out by one of the UK representatives who followed them, however, for omitting part of a paragraph they cited in defense of their position that changed its meaning. He was sure to notice this, since he had written it.

If the backers of the Kosovo Albanians said that the people of Kosovo have a right to secede and to handle their own future. Okay fine! But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians??
Come on WEST!! Be fair to all….
(PRO-SERBIA, 12 December 2009 06:43)

Sure they do. However as I recall there has not been a global wide conflict where global-wide solutions are needed to end the global conflict. So right now it is not necessary and wise to put all this issues in the same group as each one of them has its own specificities. Each one should be dealt separately simply for the fact that none of these conflicts are in any way related to each other. Meaning that if the conflict in Palestine continues or stops it does not affect the Kurds. If the Kurd conflict continues or stops that certainly does not affect Tibet or Sudan. There is no connection and certainly there has been no effect of these conflicts on each other For these reasons it is only natural to deal with them separately and one by one.
Another reason is. Why should one of this conflict remain hostage of the inability to solve another conflict that is half a world apart and that have nothing to do with each other?

now guys you can be happy. as well chavez's venezuela is on your side...

If what Staff is saying is true about these various countries that are perhaps forcibly making Kosovar ex-refugees foresake the countries where they sought refugee status than I'm shocked.I hope my country (Canada) essentially won't kick out legal Kosavar ex-refugees from my country. One thing is to be certain is that when it comes to anti-Albanians is that they should take it in stride that some Albanians I would do certain things for them instead of some non-Albanians,in fact,some Albanian Muslims I would do certain things for them instead of non-Albanian Muslims because of their actions as can be expected.

some Albanian Muslims I would do certain things for them instead of non-Albanian Muslims because of their actions as can be expected."
--

Like start a Jihad or a suicide bomb? Go to Pakistan or where you are from. We don't you need your "help," we're Albanians, not Muslims, Catholics or Orthodox

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.
(Zoran, 12 December 2009 00:41)

Huh, let me think, I rather wait for the Nationalists, they have done wonders for the Albanian cause in the last 20 years.
With the nationalists in power we might even convince the Western powers to join Albania with Kosova.

Would you give more than autonomy less than indipendence for both Kosovo and Presevo valley?
(Whatever you say, 11 December 2009 23:31)
--
You are a bit behind the times my friend. Didn't you know this is already on the table? Serbia has already extended its offer to ethnic Albanians in Presevo valley. It's all part of the self-rule proposal.

As I keep saying, it's your choice. You can negotiate with the moderates now or wait until the nationalists are in.

If the backers of the Kosovo Albanians said that the people of Kosovo have a right to secede and to handle their own future. Okay fine! But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians??
Come on WEST!! Be fair to all….

So the best arguments for UDI by the UK and US - the biggest supporters of such illegality rests on ICJ not havung legality to consider what Serbia has asked of it and if it does that because UNSC Resolution 1244 did not rule out UDI it means it can !!! Oh dear is this it really I was expecting more but clearly they must realise how much thin ground they are on!

The US and UK have created more grounds grounds for Serbia to persue ever further its continued Soveirgn and territorial integrity over its UN recognised province.

The US and UK have clealry entangled themselves in nothing but their own web of deceit and the years ahead will prove this all the more. I can see why the US and UK were completly agaisnt this but here we are and what did they offer in suppport for their illegal recognition - no legal support what so ever!!!

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

Hopefully this court will not be as corrupt as the institution that gave a Nobel prize for peace to an American president. You gotta wonder if we're dreaming. (a nightmare that is)

Ratko:Even if some Albanians were to blame for this conflict you're not going to think that it was okay for Serb forces to target Albanian civilians especially innocent civilians.You made statements about not backing down from so called Albanian terror,well,I'm not ever backing down from condoning the punisment of those who oppressed the Albanians and I'm also not backing down from wanting to be exceptionally nice to truly likeable Albanians instead of people who I have appropriate reasons to lack interest in. Finaly with regards to Staff's comments about Germany and a few other countries voluntarily or forcefully asking Kosovar ex-refugees to leave the country where did you (Staff) here that? In fact I'm bothered and or confused about what those countries are doing to these Kosovar ex-refugees.

I will give the unbiased reality in Kosovo right now. 1.serbia controls areas above ibar river and strpce municipality while Albanians control everything else.2. Kosovos longest border is with Serbia proper which leaves a majority of kosovos border undefined because Belgrade does not recognize it. 3.Albanians are de facto independant but still technically under Serbian control because they can not join any international inst. Like un or eu without Serbian Spanish Russian Greek Chinese approval.4. Serbia just built one of the lArgest military installations in the western Balkans on the administrative border with Kosovo idk but I think hat is there for the future.5. Serbia has 250000 Serbs from Kosovo as refugees and I think they will start building settlements in Kosovo like the Israelis in palesinte.6. Kosovo will always be an open ended issue because Kosovo rules it's Albanian population while Serbia has legal and indirect control over Kosovo.
(Anonymous, 12 December 2009 17:48)
You may think you succeeded in painting an unbiased picture but your bias is blatantly obvious.

"Burundi's representative also took part in the hearing, to say that Kosovo will continue to exist as an entity regardless of the court's decision."

-- I think at the end of the day, the Burundian position, of all representatives, will be predict the most likely outcome.

Well, it was really interesting to see the different arguments.

Really interesting arguments and positions, pro-UDI, of France and UK. Nevertheless, we Romanians have a really soft spot for professors Pellet (FR) and Crawford (UK) after Romania vs. Ukraine at ICJ.

Really disappointing pro-UDI presentations of Bulgaria and USA. I really don’t understand how Bulgaria can afford sending Ahtisaari’s former coffee boy to speak “in the name of the Government of Bulgaria” and just screwing up the whole thing with a biased presentation.

US presentation seemd rather political and arrogant. A second hand adviser of the US Department using words like “ineptly put”, when referring to prof. Lowe of Oxford (counsel for Cyprus) statements, is more than relevant. Plus, putting all the weight on the fact that Ahtisaari said independence is the only way, seems rather unconvincing.

Russia and Argentina seemed rather fixed on ideas, China rather franc, Spain focused and Romania was too focused on counter-attacking other’s arguments.

I think the RSFY-RFY-Serbia thing is clear, as well as the argument of the narrowness of the question. Focusing on that, US only showed that they are trying to win by using cheap procedural tricks. In this respect, the requests of today for answers to “the claims heard during the proceedings that international law does not prohibit secession, as well as those regarding the promises made by the participants in Kosovo's 2007 parliamentary elections that they would declare independence, and the provisions of the 1999 Rambouillet agreement.” are quite self explanatory.

To answer EA’s question of yesterday, I think that we should read the entire question, cause you missed “by the Self Governing …”. Please don’t forget the “date critique”.

So, in the end, it’s about the right to secession and establishing if Ahtisaari’s recommendations/opinions are sources of international law.

We won, no we one. It's a bit silly really, isn't it?

'But how about the Palestinians, South Sudanese, Serbs in Bosnia, Serbs in Croatia, people of Quebec, Kurds and Armenians in turkey and so on. ?? Do they have such right same with the Kosovo Albanians?? '

From the questions a couple of the ICJ judges asked at the end of the hearing, it seems like the court intends to deal with such matters. I thought they'd try to stay away from the issue of when a part of a state can secede and be recognized by other countries, but we may actually get some answers to what the international law will be on that.

Three judges asked for replies to questions. The judge from Morocco asked whether the question of independence/secession came up during the election campaign before 17/02/07. (He's apparently worried about whether the Assembly was acting beyond its powers.)

I'm under the impression that this was precisely what Thaci's party ran on, but I wasn't paying much attention then. Could anyone who does remember comment on this?

I will give the unbiased reality in Kosovo right now. 1.serbia controls areas above ibar river and strpce municipality while Albanians control everything else.2. Kosovos longest border is with Serbia proper which leaves a majority of kosovos border undefined because Belgrade does not recognize it. 3.Albanians are de facto independant but still technically under Serbian control because they can not join any international inst. Like un or eu without Serbian Spanish Russian Greek Chinese approval.4. Serbia just built one of the lArgest military installations in the western Balkans on the administrative border with Kosovo idk but I think hat is there for the future.5. Serbia has 250000 Serbs from Kosovo as refugees and I think they will start building settlements in Kosovo like the Israelis in palesinte.6. Kosovo will always be an open ended issue because Kosovo rules it's Albanian population while Serbia has legal and indirect control over Kosovo.

Although I'm slightly oblivious to certain criticisms I feel what's imperative to clarify is that when I made statements about treating some Albanian Muslims better than non-Albanian Muslims is that I NEVER implied that every Albanian Muslim be treated better than every single Muslim non-Albanian,besides,I have good rapport with some Muslim non-Albanians and there're some who I have provided Eid presents for.Finally when I expressed confusion about Staff's claim regarding certain nations "letting go" of Kosovar-Albanian ex refugees is that I would be truly bothered if these nations were to let go of evey single Kosovar-Albanian ex-refugee.

Albanian: What is your problem?! First of all that was a bit prejudice of you to tell me to go back to Pakistan and where I'm from is Canada which is okay with you,right? Finally I'll have you know or remind you that I've stood up for some Albanians and how do you thank me? You unjustly criticize me and you've acted ungrateful.

Albanian, what you said about Pakistan does offend me and also when you informed this Nadeem person that we ( you & other Albanians) don't need Nadeem's help, that to me ,sounds like you discriminate him for being non-Albanian. In fact Albanian you may not believe in religion but if Albanian Muslims,Catholics & Orthodox Christians are devoted to their respective religions than that should be their right.Also I assume that you cannot prevent other Albanians ( especially if they're not your relatives)from looking up to Nadeem and perhaps associating with him in real life.Finally if you know what is right than you'll learn not to be bossy to your fellow Albanians and I honestly feel that you should apologize to Nadeem for upsetting him.

Albanian:

Why are you offended by Nadeem's pro-Albanian views?? That's not right what you're doing.About myself I am a Muslim non-Albanian by the way and I ain't letting you prevent me from associating with & helping out some Albanians.In fact I'm going to prefer Albanian Muslims & non-Muslims to other Albanian Muslims & non-Muslims for the right reasons and finally I'll prefer Albanians & non-Albanians to other Albanians & non-Albanians for legitimate reasons.