Debate on Kosovo before ICJ close to end

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???
(Kosova-USA, 10 December 2009 10:45)

Yes my Albanian friend. 3 progressive socialist countries who are part of bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle. Laos suffered horrendously from US Imperialism. Between 1964 - 1973 the US Air Force conducted over half a million bombing missions over Laos, many bombs dropping indiscriminately on defenceless villagers. You can read about it here - http://www.legaciesofwar.org/traveling-exhibit/history/history-bombing-laos

So the Laotians know a thing or two about American "freedom" and "democracy".

Vietnam, well what more needs to be said. Ho Chi Minh and General Giap galvanised an entire people to defeat the Japanese, French and US imperialists at a huge cost. The US war machine murdered millions in SE Asia and as in Latin America sponsored and overly backed odious right wing military regimes who committed numerous human rights abuses.

Venezuela - Hugo Chavez, the democratically elected president was briefly toppled in a US sponsored coup d'etat in 2002 before the people reinstated him. His social reforms for the poor and the underclass in Venezuela have been well documented and the man is genuinely popular with good reason. People are being educated, fed and have access to medical care and other social services that millions in the US can only dream of.

When you add it all up, its not hard to see why countries like Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela are behind Serbia. They can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.

R.I.P Kosovo Independence!

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???

really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.
(tom, 10 December 2009 18:

i come from the south and i didn't know that there are so many greeks out there?!. Probably you know the situation there better than i do. can you tell me please where all these 500.000 greeks are displaced.It's very stange, because with all this numbers they could have more mp's than they actually have. That is just ONE. Probably they like much more being albanians than greeks.Who knows? Well probably you can explain us. Since you seem to have all the numbers here. But is very interesting that you apply very much importance to the people when it comes to vojvodina and when regarding kosovo you use cultural arguments to prove your claims there and refere to Kosovo just as a piece of land not considering at all the majority of the people feelings there??.What link you serbs culturally to vojvodina except the numbers of which show that you're a majority there and obviously the fact the is recognised as Serbia?? I'm very curious to know.

Thank you in advance.

Excellent comment, Niall. Now, Kosovo-USA, what do you say to that?

I would be far more embarrassed that recognitions have been squeezed from places that are so small that they probably don't even have their own newspaper. Or countries which are open to arm twisting promises of maybe, in the future, joining the third tier of entrants to the EU or having some sort of financial payback.

At least the countries defending Serbia's position are doing so because they have a genuine stance to make, not because they feel indebted.

Genuine arguments are far stronger than lip service.

Arguments are coming to a close at the ICJ and I’m very happy with how the process has come along. Serbians need to understand that during their time as the precious Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Albanians. Serbia should move forward and start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina, the autonomous region of Serbia that will hopefully (and successfully) succeed as well.

"Yes my Albanian friend. 3 progressive socialist countries who are part of bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle."
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Enver Hoxha, is that you? Thought you were gone in 1985...

"All you have to do is look at the world map and see who is supporting 'Kosova' and who is supporting Serbia. Its like colonisers v colonies. The US and its lackeys against the rest of the world. "

(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 14:48)

Exactly! Countries such as Norway, Finland and Denmark are all evil ones while Loas, Venezuela and Vietnam are not only free countries but has the best media freedom according to UN and etc.

Our ethnic Albanians boast about some supposed support from imperialists that constantly break international law and spread fake democracy by bombing nations to the stone age while they also have support from repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia.

It's not surprising that "Kosova" was a still birth based on terrorism and NATO crimes. I'm glad the world can see right through it and has irreversibly blocked independence. RIP "Kosova".
(Zoran, 10 December 2009 13:23)

Zoran,

All you have to do is look at the world map and see who is supporting 'Kosova' and who is supporting Serbia. Its like colonisers v colonies. The US and its lackeys against the rest of the world.

Go figure.

I have new information for all of you. Serbia will not have an honour to be represented by Laos tomorrow. As a matter of fact this does not matter because the question it put to ICJ is more than funny and it lacks the containment: "Is unilateral declaration by Provisional Self-Government Institutions in accordance with International Law?" And the question as representative of Jordan said was made from the fear that if made more wisely would not go through UN General Assembly. Vuk Jeremic & CO will laugh with all of us if they get to read these comments and certainly more with some called "patriots" here on some kind of "sacred war" that supposedly Serbia is doing against "imperialist countries" crap that has been heard from Najibullahs in Afghanistan and Enver Hoxha in Albania in 1960-ties. Now one can ask a question: Is leadership of Serbia as stupid as it looks? My answer would be: Of course not because of the simple fact: They know that they can not turn the time back. What they say and what they do serves for Serbian public consumption only. If Tadic, Jeremic and Dacic were certain that they can do something to rejoin Kosovo in Serbia, they would most certainly ask wiser question to ICJ. Jeremic called these proceedings as historic for preservation of territorial integrity of Serbia. However Serbian public has been deprived from live broadcast of this historic event on public TV. This is because Jeremic and company did not really mean this was even as nearly historic as they said. Meantime he is doing a really good job on advertising this as victory of Serbian diplomacy. Liberalisation of visa regime for people of Serbia is a positive thing. However "patriots" must not forget that it has come to be real only after government of Serbia has confirmed its adherence to the condition that this will not apply to the citizens of Kosovo even if they chose to obtain Serbian passports. This is a clear violation of Constitution of Serbia. However Jeremic and company call upon albanians (who did not and were ineligible to participate) and international community as well as ICJ to respect this constitution. In the end when the final outcome from ICJ will not meet the public of Serbia expectation they will say: We did all we could. Life still goes on.

In all honesty Kosova needs no recognition of any shape or form from these countries.
I hope Mr. Jeremic enjoys his stay in NYC,since season holidays are looming and NYC is a very much crowling with tourists at this time of the year.

Tom where did you get that info from?
I know how many ethnic greeks are in Albania and i can tell you that.
I'm from Vlore and Himara falls in Vlora's district.
There are 70.000 give or take 5000. The greek government claims that there are 300.000. The south of Albania is not greek as you claim but pure albanian. There are a few villages where people speak greek and albanian and that's about it.
If you claim because of it then you're wrong.
You know nothing about Albanian history.
Noone here does.

Regards and happy holidays.

To Matthew:
Here is an excerpt from Netherlands speech today referring to Tribunal of Yugoslavia.

The Tribunal found that:
“the common purpose of the joint criminal enterprise was to ensure continued control
by the [Federal Republic of Yugoslavia] and Serbian authorities over Kosovo and that
it was to be achieved by criminal means. Through a widespread and systematic
campaign of terror and violence, the Kosovo Albanian population was to be forcibly
displaced both within and without Kosovo, the members of the joint criminal
enterprise were aware that it was unrealistic to expect to be able to displace each and
every Kosovo Albanian from Kosovo, so the common purpose was to displace a
number of them sufficient to tip the demographic balance more toward ethnic equality
and in order to cow the Kosovo Albanians into submission.”

Well I think that we on the Serbian side and our international supporters have done as much as could be done.

Soon it will be upto the judges. I only hope that they judge in fairness and without pressure from certain democracies.

As much as we need some kind of resolution to Kosovo we (nation states) also need a form of guidance regarding the creation of new states etc - although realistically such a topic will not be written of.

Joseph your comment is clueless - firstly that Slavic Kingom was not a kingdom but socialist, and all those that didn't toe the communist line were punished whether Serb Cetniks or (Serb and non Serb) opponents of communism etc. But its that blah blah blah version of history isn't it? The Serbs had it great in Jugoslavija and everybody else suffered miserably! What absolute rubbish.

In fact I can't even be bothered to close this window to answer your other allegations in your post. Oh yes peace talks - dear Joseph, in order to have peace talks there must have been war. There was no war in Vojvodina...

If you are on your school lunch break, I advise you to return to your work before teacher comes.

I must admit i had a chuckle when i read that Laos was representing Serbia. I'm sure Serbia appreciates any help it receives but I didn't know that Laos had any expertise in international law.

WOW! Venezuela, Vietnam is supporting Serbia, I am shocked to see great "democratic" countries to support you. I see many of Serbs are so proud to see how they get support from some third worlk countries where there word democracy doesn't egzist.
Far as I did follow this ICJ thing all I saw that some of the workst countries with the worst leaders supported Seriba, which makes my day because I see that my Kosovo is much better that Serbia.
I do have suport from the country of the braves and land of the free............ USA.

I must admit i had a chuckle when i read that Laos was representing Serbia. I'm sure Serbia appreciates any help it receives but I didn't know that Laos had any expertise in international law.
(Radoslav, 10 December 2009 13:08)

Radoslav,

Read my comment below and then you will understand why Laos is representing Serbia today. The fact that thousands of Laotians are killed and maimed each year is a fitting legacy to Kissinger and Nixon.

No matter who they are or where they come from, Serbia needs all the allies they can get and even if it comes from a country like Laos or Vietnam, then all the better :)

They can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)
--
Thanks Niall. Personally, I'm pleased that Serbia has support from democratic countries, prospering communinist countries, successful socialist and capitalist countries which are more representitive of the world structure.

Our ethnic Albanians boast about some supposed support from imperialists that constantly break international law and spread fake democracy by bombing nations to the stone age while they also have support from repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia.

It's not surprising that "Kosova" was a still birth based on terrorism and NATO crimes. I'm glad the world can see right through it and has irreversibly blocked independence. RIP "Kosova".

It seems that this a fight between Communist block supporting Serbia and Capitalist supporting Kosovo.

And the biggest winner of this process is the Newborn, since in this process world powers presented facts that proved Serbian history wrong while the opposing side did could not manage to chage these facts. This means, that Serbia will loose Kosovo for good, even from their history books. All credits to Kosovars that have paid for their Independece with their lifes and to Jeremic's.

Enver Hoxha, is that you? Thought you were gone in 1985...
(shq, 10 December 2009 14:00)

Hi shq,

You can rest assured that I am not Enver Hoxha himself. In fact I never met the guy :)

“Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians (Joseph, 10 December 2009 13:45)”

First off, Yugoslavia was run by Tito, a half Sloven half Croat. The term Bosnian refers to Croatians, Serbians or Bosniaks. Slovenes, Croatians, Bosniaks and Montenegrins are all Slavs, and with the exception of the Slovenes, all speak the same language. If I wanted to be Croatian I’d simply convert to being Catholic (The Ustashe plan of WWII kill 1/3, Convert 1/3, Cleanse 1/3).

It simply astounds me the level of ignorance of the region being shown here by those claiming to hate Serbs because “they” opposed everyone in Yugo.

I’m surprised you even heard of Vojvodina. Why would the Serbs of Vojvodina want to succeed though?

Niall, nicely put.

joseph, why would Vojvodina want to leave Serbia when it'll be part of a wealthy country that is financed by the mineral wealth of Trepca. Even IF Kosovo becomes independent, it'll be without the north of Kosovo, and no, there will be no exchange of land with Presevo because of the "facts on the ground". Those "facts" are that Serbia has full control over Presevo and you have NO control over the north. I'm afraid that's just a reality you are gonna have to accept, so put away your albo pride as it will do you more harm thangood.

repbulica srpska should be independent and krajina is and was Serbian land it should be independent and all Serbian parts in Montenegro which about 45% are Serbs so the majority there will want autonomy then independence, and Texas in America wants independence and Quebec from Canada wants independence and south Albania is Greek land and it is all greeks and they want independence and in Germany eastern wants independence it is Russian is it not, and basque wants independence from Spain and Taiwan from china and parts of India and so on the list could go on and on so if kosovo goes all of these places could and will go. then all Serbs where there is a majority from all those places shall get full independence. so let the games begin

Now if we could only get a debate going with all 25 countries at once...maybe have some chairs thrown around? That would make politics so much more funner.

Arguments are coming to a close at the ICJ and I’m very happy with how the process has come along. Serbians need to understand that during their time as the precious Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Albanians. Serbia should move forward and start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina, the autonomous region of Serbia that will hopefully (and successfully) succeed as well.
(Joseph, 10 December 2009 13:45)



really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.

@ JOSEPH
"Serbia should...start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina..."
Such a horrible fever?

@ RADOSLAV
Kindly have a look at the link provided by NIALL.
Would you have a chuckle at that?

can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Good comment Niall, but don't loose time to teach anything to the kosova-usa and nationalists alike, it's like showing a picture to a blind and deft person and telling him how beautiful it is....

Only to read their comments on countries like Laos and Vietnam that suffered so much show their mentality, no wonder that they have the number 1244 sticked on their back, and God forbid to have it ever removed!

'At least the countries defending Serbia's position are doing so because they have a genuine stance to make, not because they feel indebted.

Genuine arguments are far stronger than lip service.
(kate, 10 December 2009 13:21)'

And you really think no pressure was applied to the countries supporting Serbia's position? Mr. Jeremic will be offended - he was so proud of preventing most of the ex-Yugo countries from submitting statements to the ICJ. For one specific example, take poor Bangladesh, which has been subjected to alternating US and Russian/Chinese pressure for months.

There are two camps here, two world views, and personally, I'd be happier to be supported by the democracies of the world, as imperfect as they may be. And I doubt very much that the countries in Africa and Asia that support Kosovo's independence were much swayed by any offer to someday join the EU. If Montenegro - for example - played its cards well, well, hats off to them.

really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.
(tom, 10 December 2009 18:02)

Have u ever been there 500K greek really !!! no more than 100k just for refrance. I did not see greece asking for it. as well are u sure Greece wants this back 125 debt above GDP. I think relations with greeks are great dont start some strange fight outside context.

It's sad to see the trial is not based around legal arguments. Instead it's the "empire" against everyone else. The same empire that is now turning all european nations into provinces of the €U, without even asking the people of Europe. They should be banned from using the word democracy until they themselves learn what it means.

Anyway, it's clear this trial will set a precedent for other regions wanting to declare independence. Kosovo is not a sui generis case.

Far as I did follow this ICJ thing all I saw that some of the workst countries with the worst leaders supported Seriba, which makes my day because I see that my Kosovo is much better that Serbia.
I do have suport from the country of the braves and land of the free...….. USA.
(Nexh K, 10 December 2009 17:15)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see the US, UK and alike through your eyes, but majority of the world sees them differently.

US is the lest popular country in the world now. I wonder why.
Some would say that US brand of democracy is dictatorship which you chalk up to others.

Just remember, you are offending a great deal of people when you rubbish their countries and praise the US. I can comfortably say that majority of the world disagrees with you.

As expected Romania's position was very "interesting".
Why this country is afraid of any proclamation of independence. Any region, county can proclaim independence if they wish so. The question is will they have international recognition? Do you get my drift? Or is Romania suggesting to send troop and terrorise the people who proclaimed independence.
The issue that Serbia raised is "is the proclamation of independence" against the international law.
That is the issue...Romania. It will take some more time and it will be more understandble...))

I am not sure this is lip service by all this world countries, some claim France is bad, Norway but Serbian sides finds fault in all.

Really Vietnam has more pull than Norway.

Look around European countries have spoken and Majority believes in Kosovo can not be under Serbia.

When Jordan defends kosovo u say what they know they are far but when Venezuela oh its ok.

say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.

Exactly! Countries such as Norway, Finland and Denmark are all evil ones while Loas, Venezuela and Vietnam are not only free countries but has the best media freedom according to UN and etc.
(Pejoni, 10 December 2009 16:15)

you pick the most "innocent" countries from those who recognised kosovo and those that you think are particularly bad from those who support serbia. oh, and the 3 pro-serbian countries you mention also happen to have experienced western "humanitarianism" and "democracy", so you should essentially be ashamed of your comment. because it is one thing to support kosovo's independence. and another thing to bach victims of western imperialism. your defender of "democracy" killed millions of innocent people there.

and it is also perfectly true that this is a stand-off between the colonial powers and their former colonies.

It seems that this a fight between Communist block supporting Serbia and Capitalist supporting Kosovo.
(Olf, 10 December 2009 15:43)
--
Olf, China is both communist and capitalist so where does it fit into your equation? China supports Serbia, we have communist and democratic states and countries with socialist and capitalist economic systems all supporting us.

Laos, "part of the bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle".
Neil

I didn't hear about Laos for the 30 years. I looked it up on Google.
- population 6,8 millions
- communist state
- the only legal political party is the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (LPRP)
- per capita income: $765 (2008)
Do you call this bulwark?

Olf,

Detail your griping into factually based sentences, rather than venomous and childish jabs.

I love most of the comments on here about Vietnam, Laos, Venezuela etc

Typical brainwashed "everyone that isn't with us is evil" Yankee attitude. Maybe if you spent some time living amongst these people you would appreciate the lives that they live. After all they are all human beings too (which is hard to believe reading some of the holier than thou comments on here!!)

That is the saddest thing about Kosovo. You all follow like sheep but you're all being stitched up over this independence thing just to make a few people wealthy.

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???
(Kosova-USA, 10 December 2009 10:45)

Micronesia, Insgnificant never heard of before islands????? WT....

Good comment Niall, but don't loose time to teach anything to the kosova-usa and nationalists alike, it's like showing a picture to a blind and deft person and telling him how beautiful it is....


It takes a nationalist to know a nationalist.

say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.
(Bilbao, 10 December 2009 23:24)

the uk argument was pathetic. i actually think the dutch argument is something that really should make people think - that a territory has ritgh to self-determination if its people are oppressed by the central government. i'm all down for it provided there is no "unique case" nonsense and provided it is transparent how decisions are made about how much oppression is enough to justify secession. otherwise it will be abused by the powerful countries. which is what the uk argument boils down to and the dutch aren't hinting at this being a precedent either.

I think it's just sad how all of these people who have never heard of Kosovo before are all now taking sides and everything. I am a Yugoslav Muslim originally from Bosnia-Herzegovina and i strongly disagree with Kosovo. Kosovo should NOT be independent. These people are trying to steal land that was originally ours. For example..what if hundreds of thousands Serbs moved to Albania and became a majority in an area? Could they seperate from Albania then? NO! Ignorance and stupidity is what is wrong with people today. KOSOVO IS YUGOSLAVIA:)

Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela -3 progressive socialist countries who are part of BULWARK of the anti-imperialist struggle. (Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Thanks for this great piece of comic relief!:)

Jessie

Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela -3 progressive socialist countries who are part of BULWARK of the anti-imperialist struggle. (Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Thanks for this great piece of comic relief!:)

Jessie
(Jessie, 11 December 2009 10:29)

He forgot Northkorea...
It is always interesting to see in what spheres people reach just to express that they are anger regarding the world developement such as the independence of Kosovo.

Just to make it clear Kosovo did not want Independance it wanted to be treated equal, what happened we lost more.

Bosnis Yugoslav friend, look at your passport if u have one and u see it says Bosnia. I still have my Yugoslav passport but its not valid any longer its just part of history.
(Bilbao, 12 December 2009 12:29)

Now that is a definite lie. K-Albanians had only one goal and that was independence. That's why they never wated to negotiate. Sure, for a while they made it look like they were negotiating but had the outcome already determined.

'say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.
(Bilbao, 10 December 2009 23:24)'

Crawford also made me laugh - for example, quoting one of the many passages on the silence of international law on declarations of independence selected "entirely at random" - that happened to come from a work by one of the lead counsel for Serbia. The point being that it directly contradicted the Serbian position the same lawyer is now defending.

He also did the best close analysis of Res. 1244. I wouldn't be surprised if his arguments are cited most frequently in the court's decision.

NO! Ignorance and stupidity is what is wrong with people today. KOSOVO IS YUGOSLAVIA:)
(AP, 11 December 2009 22:16)

If you see the date above says Dec 2009 so there is no Yugoslavia any longer. But I will help you Kosovo was Yugoslavia. And I wish it still was but I dont see your Bosnia going to Ygoslavia. What about you stilling the land and Croatians And Serbs for that matter. It broke up its done live with it.

U will see Yugoslavia when RS goes independent.

Just to make it clear Kosovo did not want Independance it wanted to be treated equal, what happened we lost more.

Bosnis Yugoslav friend, look at your passport if u have one and u see it says Bosnia. I still have my Yugoslav passport but its not valid any longer its just part of history.

R.I.P Kosovo Independence!

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???

Arguments are coming to a close at the ICJ and I’m very happy with how the process has come along. Serbians need to understand that during their time as the precious Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Albanians. Serbia should move forward and start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina, the autonomous region of Serbia that will hopefully (and successfully) succeed as well.

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???
(Kosova-USA, 10 December 2009 10:45)

Yes my Albanian friend. 3 progressive socialist countries who are part of bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle. Laos suffered horrendously from US Imperialism. Between 1964 - 1973 the US Air Force conducted over half a million bombing missions over Laos, many bombs dropping indiscriminately on defenceless villagers. You can read about it here - http://www.legaciesofwar.org/traveling-exhibit/history/history-bombing-laos

So the Laotians know a thing or two about American "freedom" and "democracy".

Vietnam, well what more needs to be said. Ho Chi Minh and General Giap galvanised an entire people to defeat the Japanese, French and US imperialists at a huge cost. The US war machine murdered millions in SE Asia and as in Latin America sponsored and overly backed odious right wing military regimes who committed numerous human rights abuses.

Venezuela - Hugo Chavez, the democratically elected president was briefly toppled in a US sponsored coup d'etat in 2002 before the people reinstated him. His social reforms for the poor and the underclass in Venezuela have been well documented and the man is genuinely popular with good reason. People are being educated, fed and have access to medical care and other social services that millions in the US can only dream of.

When you add it all up, its not hard to see why countries like Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela are behind Serbia. They can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.

Excellent comment, Niall. Now, Kosovo-USA, what do you say to that?

I would be far more embarrassed that recognitions have been squeezed from places that are so small that they probably don't even have their own newspaper. Or countries which are open to arm twisting promises of maybe, in the future, joining the third tier of entrants to the EU or having some sort of financial payback.

At least the countries defending Serbia's position are doing so because they have a genuine stance to make, not because they feel indebted.

Genuine arguments are far stronger than lip service.

In all honesty Kosova needs no recognition of any shape or form from these countries.
I hope Mr. Jeremic enjoys his stay in NYC,since season holidays are looming and NYC is a very much crowling with tourists at this time of the year.

They can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)
--
Thanks Niall. Personally, I'm pleased that Serbia has support from democratic countries, prospering communinist countries, successful socialist and capitalist countries which are more representitive of the world structure.

Our ethnic Albanians boast about some supposed support from imperialists that constantly break international law and spread fake democracy by bombing nations to the stone age while they also have support from repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia.

It's not surprising that "Kosova" was a still birth based on terrorism and NATO crimes. I'm glad the world can see right through it and has irreversibly blocked independence. RIP "Kosova".

It seems that this a fight between Communist block supporting Serbia and Capitalist supporting Kosovo.

And the biggest winner of this process is the Newborn, since in this process world powers presented facts that proved Serbian history wrong while the opposing side did could not manage to chage these facts. This means, that Serbia will loose Kosovo for good, even from their history books. All credits to Kosovars that have paid for their Independece with their lifes and to Jeremic's.

joseph, why would Vojvodina want to leave Serbia when it'll be part of a wealthy country that is financed by the mineral wealth of Trepca. Even IF Kosovo becomes independent, it'll be without the north of Kosovo, and no, there will be no exchange of land with Presevo because of the "facts on the ground". Those "facts" are that Serbia has full control over Presevo and you have NO control over the north. I'm afraid that's just a reality you are gonna have to accept, so put away your albo pride as it will do you more harm thangood.

I must admit i had a chuckle when i read that Laos was representing Serbia. I'm sure Serbia appreciates any help it receives but I didn't know that Laos had any expertise in international law.
(Radoslav, 10 December 2009 13:08)

Radoslav,

Read my comment below and then you will understand why Laos is representing Serbia today. The fact that thousands of Laotians are killed and maimed each year is a fitting legacy to Kissinger and Nixon.

No matter who they are or where they come from, Serbia needs all the allies they can get and even if it comes from a country like Laos or Vietnam, then all the better :)

Enver Hoxha, is that you? Thought you were gone in 1985...
(shq, 10 December 2009 14:00)

Hi shq,

You can rest assured that I am not Enver Hoxha himself. In fact I never met the guy :)

Our ethnic Albanians boast about some supposed support from imperialists that constantly break international law and spread fake democracy by bombing nations to the stone age while they also have support from repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia.

It's not surprising that "Kosova" was a still birth based on terrorism and NATO crimes. I'm glad the world can see right through it and has irreversibly blocked independence. RIP "Kosova".
(Zoran, 10 December 2009 13:23)

Zoran,

All you have to do is look at the world map and see who is supporting 'Kosova' and who is supporting Serbia. Its like colonisers v colonies. The US and its lackeys against the rest of the world.

Go figure.

"All you have to do is look at the world map and see who is supporting 'Kosova' and who is supporting Serbia. Its like colonisers v colonies. The US and its lackeys against the rest of the world. "

(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 14:48)

Exactly! Countries such as Norway, Finland and Denmark are all evil ones while Loas, Venezuela and Vietnam are not only free countries but has the best media freedom according to UN and etc.

"Yes my Albanian friend. 3 progressive socialist countries who are part of bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle."
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Enver Hoxha, is that you? Thought you were gone in 1985...

It's sad to see the trial is not based around legal arguments. Instead it's the "empire" against everyone else. The same empire that is now turning all european nations into provinces of the €U, without even asking the people of Europe. They should be banned from using the word democracy until they themselves learn what it means.

Anyway, it's clear this trial will set a precedent for other regions wanting to declare independence. Kosovo is not a sui generis case.

I must admit i had a chuckle when i read that Laos was representing Serbia. I'm sure Serbia appreciates any help it receives but I didn't know that Laos had any expertise in international law.

WOW! Venezuela, Vietnam is supporting Serbia, I am shocked to see great "democratic" countries to support you. I see many of Serbs are so proud to see how they get support from some third worlk countries where there word democracy doesn't egzist.
Far as I did follow this ICJ thing all I saw that some of the workst countries with the worst leaders supported Seriba, which makes my day because I see that my Kosovo is much better that Serbia.
I do have suport from the country of the braves and land of the free............ USA.

repbulica srpska should be independent and krajina is and was Serbian land it should be independent and all Serbian parts in Montenegro which about 45% are Serbs so the majority there will want autonomy then independence, and Texas in America wants independence and Quebec from Canada wants independence and south Albania is Greek land and it is all greeks and they want independence and in Germany eastern wants independence it is Russian is it not, and basque wants independence from Spain and Taiwan from china and parts of India and so on the list could go on and on so if kosovo goes all of these places could and will go. then all Serbs where there is a majority from all those places shall get full independence. so let the games begin

Arguments are coming to a close at the ICJ and I’m very happy with how the process has come along. Serbians need to understand that during their time as the precious Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians and Albanians. Serbia should move forward and start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina, the autonomous region of Serbia that will hopefully (and successfully) succeed as well.
(Joseph, 10 December 2009 13:45)



really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.

“Yugoslavia was nothing more then a deprived Slavic kingdom that butchered all who were considered “separatists” and “terrorists” of their country, including Croatians, Slovenians, Bosnians (Joseph, 10 December 2009 13:45)”

First off, Yugoslavia was run by Tito, a half Sloven half Croat. The term Bosnian refers to Croatians, Serbians or Bosniaks. Slovenes, Croatians, Bosniaks and Montenegrins are all Slavs, and with the exception of the Slovenes, all speak the same language. If I wanted to be Croatian I’d simply convert to being Catholic (The Ustashe plan of WWII kill 1/3, Convert 1/3, Cleanse 1/3).

It simply astounds me the level of ignorance of the region being shown here by those claiming to hate Serbs because “they” opposed everyone in Yugo.

I’m surprised you even heard of Vojvodina. Why would the Serbs of Vojvodina want to succeed though?

Niall, nicely put.

I have new information for all of you. Serbia will not have an honour to be represented by Laos tomorrow. As a matter of fact this does not matter because the question it put to ICJ is more than funny and it lacks the containment: "Is unilateral declaration by Provisional Self-Government Institutions in accordance with International Law?" And the question as representative of Jordan said was made from the fear that if made more wisely would not go through UN General Assembly. Vuk Jeremic & CO will laugh with all of us if they get to read these comments and certainly more with some called "patriots" here on some kind of "sacred war" that supposedly Serbia is doing against "imperialist countries" crap that has been heard from Najibullahs in Afghanistan and Enver Hoxha in Albania in 1960-ties. Now one can ask a question: Is leadership of Serbia as stupid as it looks? My answer would be: Of course not because of the simple fact: They know that they can not turn the time back. What they say and what they do serves for Serbian public consumption only. If Tadic, Jeremic and Dacic were certain that they can do something to rejoin Kosovo in Serbia, they would most certainly ask wiser question to ICJ. Jeremic called these proceedings as historic for preservation of territorial integrity of Serbia. However Serbian public has been deprived from live broadcast of this historic event on public TV. This is because Jeremic and company did not really mean this was even as nearly historic as they said. Meantime he is doing a really good job on advertising this as victory of Serbian diplomacy. Liberalisation of visa regime for people of Serbia is a positive thing. However "patriots" must not forget that it has come to be real only after government of Serbia has confirmed its adherence to the condition that this will not apply to the citizens of Kosovo even if they chose to obtain Serbian passports. This is a clear violation of Constitution of Serbia. However Jeremic and company call upon albanians (who did not and were ineligible to participate) and international community as well as ICJ to respect this constitution. In the end when the final outcome from ICJ will not meet the public of Serbia expectation they will say: We did all we could. Life still goes on.

Far as I did follow this ICJ thing all I saw that some of the workst countries with the worst leaders supported Seriba, which makes my day because I see that my Kosovo is much better that Serbia.
I do have suport from the country of the braves and land of the free...….. USA.
(Nexh K, 10 December 2009 17:15)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see the US, UK and alike through your eyes, but majority of the world sees them differently.

US is the lest popular country in the world now. I wonder why.
Some would say that US brand of democracy is dictatorship which you chalk up to others.

Just remember, you are offending a great deal of people when you rubbish their countries and praise the US. I can comfortably say that majority of the world disagrees with you.

As expected Romania's position was very "interesting".
Why this country is afraid of any proclamation of independence. Any region, county can proclaim independence if they wish so. The question is will they have international recognition? Do you get my drift? Or is Romania suggesting to send troop and terrorise the people who proclaimed independence.
The issue that Serbia raised is "is the proclamation of independence" against the international law.
That is the issue...Romania. It will take some more time and it will be more understandble...))

@ JOSEPH
"Serbia should...start arranging peace talks with Vojvodina..."
Such a horrible fever?

@ RADOSLAV
Kindly have a look at the link provided by NIALL.
Would you have a chuckle at that?

Well I think that we on the Serbian side and our international supporters have done as much as could be done.

Soon it will be upto the judges. I only hope that they judge in fairness and without pressure from certain democracies.

As much as we need some kind of resolution to Kosovo we (nation states) also need a form of guidance regarding the creation of new states etc - although realistically such a topic will not be written of.

Joseph your comment is clueless - firstly that Slavic Kingom was not a kingdom but socialist, and all those that didn't toe the communist line were punished whether Serb Cetniks or (Serb and non Serb) opponents of communism etc. But its that blah blah blah version of history isn't it? The Serbs had it great in Jugoslavija and everybody else suffered miserably! What absolute rubbish.

In fact I can't even be bothered to close this window to answer your other allegations in your post. Oh yes peace talks - dear Joseph, in order to have peace talks there must have been war. There was no war in Vojvodina...

If you are on your school lunch break, I advise you to return to your work before teacher comes.

I am not sure this is lip service by all this world countries, some claim France is bad, Norway but Serbian sides finds fault in all.

Really Vietnam has more pull than Norway.

Look around European countries have spoken and Majority believes in Kosovo can not be under Serbia.

When Jordan defends kosovo u say what they know they are far but when Venezuela oh its ok.

say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.

really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.
(tom, 10 December 2009 18:

i come from the south and i didn't know that there are so many greeks out there?!. Probably you know the situation there better than i do. can you tell me please where all these 500.000 greeks are displaced.It's very stange, because with all this numbers they could have more mp's than they actually have. That is just ONE. Probably they like much more being albanians than greeks.Who knows? Well probably you can explain us. Since you seem to have all the numbers here. But is very interesting that you apply very much importance to the people when it comes to vojvodina and when regarding kosovo you use cultural arguments to prove your claims there and refere to Kosovo just as a piece of land not considering at all the majority of the people feelings there??.What link you serbs culturally to vojvodina except the numbers of which show that you're a majority there and obviously the fact the is recognised as Serbia?? I'm very curious to know.

Thank you in advance.

It seems that this a fight between Communist block supporting Serbia and Capitalist supporting Kosovo.
(Olf, 10 December 2009 15:43)
--
Olf, China is both communist and capitalist so where does it fit into your equation? China supports Serbia, we have communist and democratic states and countries with socialist and capitalist economic systems all supporting us.

Now if we could only get a debate going with all 25 countries at once...maybe have some chairs thrown around? That would make politics so much more funner.

can smell this 'Kosova' thing for what it is - a big stinking pile of US/NATO/EU miltaristic-imperialist hypocrisy and double standards.
(Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Good comment Niall, but don't loose time to teach anything to the kosova-usa and nationalists alike, it's like showing a picture to a blind and deft person and telling him how beautiful it is....

Only to read their comments on countries like Laos and Vietnam that suffered so much show their mentality, no wonder that they have the number 1244 sticked on their back, and God forbid to have it ever removed!

Laos,Vietnam,Venezuela???
(Kosova-USA, 10 December 2009 10:45)

Micronesia, Insgnificant never heard of before islands????? WT....

To Matthew:
Here is an excerpt from Netherlands speech today referring to Tribunal of Yugoslavia.

The Tribunal found that:
“the common purpose of the joint criminal enterprise was to ensure continued control
by the [Federal Republic of Yugoslavia] and Serbian authorities over Kosovo and that
it was to be achieved by criminal means. Through a widespread and systematic
campaign of terror and violence, the Kosovo Albanian population was to be forcibly
displaced both within and without Kosovo, the members of the joint criminal
enterprise were aware that it was unrealistic to expect to be able to displace each and
every Kosovo Albanian from Kosovo, so the common purpose was to displace a
number of them sufficient to tip the demographic balance more toward ethnic equality
and in order to cow the Kosovo Albanians into submission.”

Tom where did you get that info from?
I know how many ethnic greeks are in Albania and i can tell you that.
I'm from Vlore and Himara falls in Vlora's district.
There are 70.000 give or take 5000. The greek government claims that there are 300.000. The south of Albania is not greek as you claim but pure albanian. There are a few villages where people speak greek and albanian and that's about it.
If you claim because of it then you're wrong.
You know nothing about Albanian history.
Noone here does.

Regards and happy holidays.

Exactly! Countries such as Norway, Finland and Denmark are all evil ones while Loas, Venezuela and Vietnam are not only free countries but has the best media freedom according to UN and etc.
(Pejoni, 10 December 2009 16:15)

you pick the most "innocent" countries from those who recognised kosovo and those that you think are particularly bad from those who support serbia. oh, and the 3 pro-serbian countries you mention also happen to have experienced western "humanitarianism" and "democracy", so you should essentially be ashamed of your comment. because it is one thing to support kosovo's independence. and another thing to bach victims of western imperialism. your defender of "democracy" killed millions of innocent people there.

and it is also perfectly true that this is a stand-off between the colonial powers and their former colonies.

Laos, "part of the bulwark of the anti-imperialist struggle".
Neil

I didn't hear about Laos for the 30 years. I looked it up on Google.
- population 6,8 millions
- communist state
- the only legal political party is the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (LPRP)
- per capita income: $765 (2008)
Do you call this bulwark?

Good comment Niall, but don't loose time to teach anything to the kosova-usa and nationalists alike, it's like showing a picture to a blind and deft person and telling him how beautiful it is....


It takes a nationalist to know a nationalist.

Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela -3 progressive socialist countries who are part of BULWARK of the anti-imperialist struggle. (Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Thanks for this great piece of comic relief!:)

Jessie
(Jessie, 11 December 2009 10:29)

He forgot Northkorea...
It is always interesting to see in what spheres people reach just to express that they are anger regarding the world developement such as the independence of Kosovo.

Laos, Vietnam and Venezuela -3 progressive socialist countries who are part of BULWARK of the anti-imperialist struggle. (Niall O'Doherty, 10 December 2009 12:01)

Thanks for this great piece of comic relief!:)

Jessie

really simple answer for you Mr. albanian vojvodina is 75% Serbian people ok is that easy to understand but south albania is all greeks and they want to go back with greece since it is their lands and there is 500,000 greeks there and the north was serbian lands and it has a major serbian population there also, so you should worry .and the status for vojvodina is over and nothing they could do now to separate and the people have to have the say and it is 75% Serbs if not more.
(tom, 10 December 2009 18:02)

Have u ever been there 500K greek really !!! no more than 100k just for refrance. I did not see greece asking for it. as well are u sure Greece wants this back 125 debt above GDP. I think relations with greeks are great dont start some strange fight outside context.

'At least the countries defending Serbia's position are doing so because they have a genuine stance to make, not because they feel indebted.

Genuine arguments are far stronger than lip service.
(kate, 10 December 2009 13:21)'

And you really think no pressure was applied to the countries supporting Serbia's position? Mr. Jeremic will be offended - he was so proud of preventing most of the ex-Yugo countries from submitting statements to the ICJ. For one specific example, take poor Bangladesh, which has been subjected to alternating US and Russian/Chinese pressure for months.

There are two camps here, two world views, and personally, I'd be happier to be supported by the democracies of the world, as imperfect as they may be. And I doubt very much that the countries in Africa and Asia that support Kosovo's independence were much swayed by any offer to someday join the EU. If Montenegro - for example - played its cards well, well, hats off to them.

I love most of the comments on here about Vietnam, Laos, Venezuela etc

Typical brainwashed "everyone that isn't with us is evil" Yankee attitude. Maybe if you spent some time living amongst these people you would appreciate the lives that they live. After all they are all human beings too (which is hard to believe reading some of the holier than thou comments on here!!)

That is the saddest thing about Kosovo. You all follow like sheep but you're all being stitched up over this independence thing just to make a few people wealthy.

Olf,

Detail your griping into factually based sentences, rather than venomous and childish jabs.

say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.
(Bilbao, 10 December 2009 23:24)

the uk argument was pathetic. i actually think the dutch argument is something that really should make people think - that a territory has ritgh to self-determination if its people are oppressed by the central government. i'm all down for it provided there is no "unique case" nonsense and provided it is transparent how decisions are made about how much oppression is enough to justify secession. otherwise it will be abused by the powerful countries. which is what the uk argument boils down to and the dutch aren't hinting at this being a precedent either.

I think it's just sad how all of these people who have never heard of Kosovo before are all now taking sides and everything. I am a Yugoslav Muslim originally from Bosnia-Herzegovina and i strongly disagree with Kosovo. Kosovo should NOT be independent. These people are trying to steal land that was originally ours. For example..what if hundreds of thousands Serbs moved to Albania and became a majority in an area? Could they seperate from Albania then? NO! Ignorance and stupidity is what is wrong with people today. KOSOVO IS YUGOSLAVIA:)

NO! Ignorance and stupidity is what is wrong with people today. KOSOVO IS YUGOSLAVIA:)
(AP, 11 December 2009 22:16)

If you see the date above says Dec 2009 so there is no Yugoslavia any longer. But I will help you Kosovo was Yugoslavia. And I wish it still was but I dont see your Bosnia going to Ygoslavia. What about you stilling the land and Croatians And Serbs for that matter. It broke up its done live with it.

U will see Yugoslavia when RS goes independent.

Just to make it clear Kosovo did not want Independance it wanted to be treated equal, what happened we lost more.

Bosnis Yugoslav friend, look at your passport if u have one and u see it says Bosnia. I still have my Yugoslav passport but its not valid any longer its just part of history.

'say what u like but what UK said today was amazing and very well argued, if u read it i am sure it made u think.
(Bilbao, 10 December 2009 23:24)'

Crawford also made me laugh - for example, quoting one of the many passages on the silence of international law on declarations of independence selected "entirely at random" - that happened to come from a work by one of the lead counsel for Serbia. The point being that it directly contradicted the Serbian position the same lawyer is now defending.

He also did the best close analysis of Res. 1244. I wouldn't be surprised if his arguments are cited most frequently in the court's decision.

Just to make it clear Kosovo did not want Independance it wanted to be treated equal, what happened we lost more.

Bosnis Yugoslav friend, look at your passport if u have one and u see it says Bosnia. I still have my Yugoslav passport but its not valid any longer its just part of history.
(Bilbao, 12 December 2009 12:29)

Now that is a definite lie. K-Albanians had only one goal and that was independence. That's why they never wated to negotiate. Sure, for a while they made it look like they were negotiating but had the outcome already determined.