China: Kosovo declaration violates intl. law

"WOW hold on Mr. China, what is this?! A broom without a handle is a brush and not ''still a broom''!!!why not Croatia or Bosnia or Macedonia (can they please represent the ex SRFJ?)! this is the only card that Serbia can play, if anyone believes in that 'Serbia is the successor of SRJ!, noting that in the 1244 Serbia is not mentioned but SRJ, which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.
(ZagorTeNeJ, 7 December 2009 13:36)"

You are the one who is throughly confused. Let me enlighten you.

1244 referred to 1999's Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro), not Tito's Yugoslavia (which included Croatia and Bosnia).

And when Montenegro left 1999's Yugoslavia, the UN recognized Serbia as the successor to the UN seat for Yugoslavia. That is why Montenegro had to reapply to the UN as a new member whereas Serbia simply took over the UN seat for 1999's Yugoslavia. You should be clearer now, I hope.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..

If Serbia is not the successor state of Yugoslavia, why did Serbia get charged with failure to prevent genocide in the Bosnia v Serbia case? It was the JNA and the state of Yugoslavia that failed to prevent genocide, but as the successor Serbia got the blame. These critics of Serbia can't have it both ways.

By the way has anyone read the transcript? Thus far none of Kosovo's allies have argued that Serbia is not the successor state to Yugoslavia. This must mean their legal team looked closely at this and realised they didn't have a leg to stand on.

I am really bored by these endless reiterations of poorly informed writers here..

can it really be true that someone who is interested in this issue and writes here STILL does not know that Serbia is in fact the successor-state of the former yugoslav states?

I mean, are they really that ill-informed or just ignorants?

anyway, fact is: they don´t know what they are writing about, and that´s a phenomenon very often seen among our dear albanian friends who write here on a regular basis.

I really hope they will learn something through the ICJ-opinions published here, since this will avoid them of having a bad awakening in the future.

but once again, I must say I am very astonished to see ignorance of that magnitude.

China rejected interpretations that the provision of the resolution that guaranteed integrity and sovereignty was "unbinding", with its legal representative telling the ICJ today that Beijing in 1999 insisted that this provision be included in the resolution, which came after NATO's illegal military attack.

"For this reason China did not block Resolution 1244," Hanchin emphasized.
--
I think it's fair to say that China was a much stronger supporter of Serbia back in the 90's than Russia.

It is great to have such a heavy weight supporter on our side and for China to argue its point at the international court, for the first time in history, shows that it is ready to play hardball and to get involved in international politics much more.

China, with its huge growth and influence, is ready to take centre stage and thank God we have strong ties to them. The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.

"Resolution 1244 does not recognize Serbia as the successor Yugoslavia.
(genti, 7 December 2009 14:08)"

I am squirming with embarrassment for you.

That will be a disaster for Chinese - since they own a big chunk of the US. Most likely they will help out. Probably not for free.
(Ataman, 7 December 2009 15:04)
--
Ataman, it will be a disaster for the world but an ever bigger disaster for the US (and the West) - which will lose so much of its influence. I have considered a few scenarios, one being the drawing of an iron curtain around the west but the more likely scenario is the formation of a world currency and removing the US dollar for the equation.

In my opinion, the US is gone while China will emerg as the new world power.

China doesn't even know what is violation of international law nor the meaning of Democracy. It is in pair with serbia and Russia and No doubt it will support someone alike.

i like the fact that most nations supporting serbia have a brutal human rights record.

''Serbia is the successor state to the SRJ''!!

WOW hold on Mr. China, what is this?! A broom without a handle is a brush and not ''still a broom''!!!why not Croatia or Bosnia or Macedonia (can they please represent the ex SRFJ?)! this is the only card that Serbia can play, if anyone believes in that 'Serbia is the successor of SRJ!, noting that in the 1244 Serbia is not mentioned but SRJ, which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.

China rejected interpretations that the provision of the resolution that guaranteed integrity and sovereignty was "unbinding", with its legal representative telling the ICJ today that Beijing in 1999 insisted that this provision be included in the resolution, which came after NATO's illegal military attack.

-The only country so far to state the obvious and very crucial fact that Serbia was illegally bombed for 78 days.
And for those who don't know why it was illegal, I will just remind you that UNSC never approved bombardment of Serbia, the then SRY.

"There is no doubt that after the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo was a part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is, Serbia. Integral parts of sovereign states, under international law, do not have a right to unilateral secession

-Once again very crucial statement considering the fact that Albanians had secessionist’s aspirations for many decades and those aspirations were very often based on usage of brutal methods against the Serbs in the province of Kosovo and Metohija. Creation of terrorist military formation UCK and their actions against the civilians and authorities in the province
required the official response from the capital city of Belgrade. Every country in this world has the right to defend its citizens from the terrorists and Serbia had no reason to believe that she was denied those same rights applicable to other countries that dealt with terrorism.

The Chinese representative rejected claims coming from the countries which recognized Kosovo that the negotiating process had been exhausted, stressing that this could only have been ascertained by the UN Security Council, which was entitled to decide on the further measures.

-Of course, this time too the UN has been ignored because everyone knew that they could not find any way out for independence proclamation. And why is that? Well, simply because there is that “nasty” resolution 1244 (still very much alive and in force) which guarantees Serbian sovereignty and territorial integrity that cannot be ignored. That’s why they came out with bizarre Ahtisari’s plan and “unique case” nonsense without giving any valid explanation what is so unique in regard to Kosovo case.
Even now in this court some countries repeat “unique case” but failing to explain uniqueness,
In one word, they are all aware that everything in regard to Kosovo was and is still illegal.

Unfortunately for our dear Albanian posters that they cannot read over here Croatian and Denmark’s legal stance on Kosovo matter.
I can only say it was very poor, while Croatia even used lies stating that Kosovo was constitutional part of SFRY which is of course a lie. According to the then constitution Albanians were national minority within Serbia and entire SFRY with the autonomy in Kosovo. No need to say how capable they were to ran the province those days and in what manner they abused all the power they had.

but once again, I must say I am very astonished to see ignorance of that magnitude.
(Jovan, 7 December 2009 14:56)

Jovane,
I am not surprised at all :)

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...

Kosovo will win this case!!!Crystal clear!!!

Resolution 1244 does not recognize Serbia as the successor Yugoslavia.

China is far away! What did Croatia said?!

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, founded 1992, was renamed to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. After these two country split up, Serbia became the sole legal recognized successor state!

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)

which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.
(ZagorTeNeJ, 7 December 2009 13:36)
--
1244 refers to FRY, which changed its name to Serbia after Montenegro split. This is not SRJ but China claims Serbia is the successor state to SRJ, like Russia is to the USSR.

FRY was created in 1992 by Serbia and Montengero. SRJ was created earlier and FRY claimed successor state to SRJ but not everyone agreed. However, 1244 refers to FRY so there is no dispute who it refers to.

i like the fact that most nations supporting Serbia have a brutal human rights record.
(xythi, 7 December 2009 14:32)

-

What about Albania's & Croatia's poor human rights record?

Pro-Serbian arguments re extremely boring and repetitive.

Soveignity; territorial integrity bla bla bla... again and again these same 2 arguments

nothing about values, moral, democracy, freedom

only pure arrogance of I am stronger and I placed that piece of land under my jurisdiction now all the world must respect my terrotorial integrity. Well we are not in jungle.

You cannot occupie Tibet and prettend to be China and at the same time want Taiwan as well.

It is completely OK with the Chinese culture and values the Mao's definition of the sovreignity of the states: it omes from the barrel of the gun.

In democracy the sovreignity comes from the people. And the people in Kosova don't want even to hear for Serbia.

Can't be more clear than this.

and don't hope that ICJ will tale Kosova that is not under Serbia since June 1999 to go back under Serbia. ICJ will caus a new war. That's for sure.

Remember China Who? *PUTINMAN* Who?Brazil Who?India Who?I am not so happy to report but many people in those countries are now saying US Who? Since you Albanians seem to be an authority on all nations from economy and history to political philosophy,I think you should get on their blog sites and enlighten those people.In the meantime someone should bring to Thaci's attention that the new counter-bloggers he hired are all ill-informed and therefore very boring and not up to the level of other bloggers and readers that visit this site.Go and blog with the Croats,you are so much closer to one another in mentality, intellegence,morals and have so many other things in common.Give us Serbs a break---can't you see our borders and see that we are virtually surrounded by ex-Nazis and their symphatizers?

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...
(Hruz, 7 December 2009 15:51)

China is the member of UNSC and the diet of lions or dragons is irrelevant.
What is relevant: if they testify, how the 1244 was adopted by UNSC, nullifying what France did say. France testimony was extremely strong, Chinese were successful to counter it.

-

China doesn't even know what is violation of international law nor the meaning of Democracy. It is in pair with serbia and Russia and No doubt it will support someone alike.
(PRN, 7 December 2009 15:28)

China could be the Big Bad Evil Empire - at this point it is irrelevant. What the court is primarily looking for is how to interpret 1244. From that point of view France's testimony was important and Chinese crucial.

We are looking basically into a simple question:

"Is UDI a cheating with 1244 being used as a cover or UDI was originally a possibility embedded in 1244?"

France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"

"For this reason China did not block Resolution 1244," Hanchin emphasized.

This essentially countering the French argument, thanks for that.
French argumentation was pretty strong but IMO Chinese were successful to counter it.

--

I think it's fair to say that China was a much stronger supporter of Serbia back in the 90's than Russia.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

Russia was under permanent influence of vodka and oligarhs. Yeltsin's start was rotten because his goal was to pull the country from underneath of Gorbachyov underhanded way - if necessary, by dissolving the Soviet Union. The finish (pulling Ka-Ge-Beshnik Putin out of nowhere in agreement: remain unpunished in exchange for support of Putin's presidency) was even worse.

And in the middle during the whole YU-bombing he was rarely if ever sober. Many meetings with US and YU representatives had to be postponed because the host was meeting with "Stolichnaya".

--

It is great to have such a heavy weight supporter on our side and for China to argue its point at the international court, for the first time in history, shows that it is ready to play hardball and to get involved in international politics much more.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03

Chinese argumentation was pretty strong, let's see what Croatia will pull out.

--

The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

That will be a disaster for Chinese - since they own a big chunk of the US. Most likely they will help out. Probably not for free.

China is far away! What did Croatia said?!
(Dane, 7 December 2009 14:39)

Do you honestly think that Croatia is any sort of a match to China?
What has distance got to do with it?

Go and tell your master the US to mind their own business too because they are not next door either.

"It is completely OK with the Chinese culture and values the Mao's definition of the sovreignity of the states: it comes from the barrel of the gun."

This is a perfect analogy and I can also use it in reference to USA/NATO's actions against YU/Serbia in 1999. This means our version of "international law" came from the barrel of a gun and we are no better than Maoist China.

Good luck to Serbia's diplomatic fight to maintain her sovereignty.

The Americans need the Chinese to continuge buying their debt. Other countries are count on China for trade. So,if it is convenient for China to press for a resolution in Serbias favor, it means the illegal Kosov"A" state is dead.

"Pro-Serbian arguments re extremely boring and repetitive.

Soveignity; territorial integrity bla bla bla... again and again these same 2 arguments" (ben)

-- Yeah, I know right? All the legal and legitimate stuff. Who wants to have one's opinions challenged with data like that?

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)
(Top, 7 December 2009 14:53)

Yes, this is one of few major urban legends:

- "Serbs came from Siberia" (wrong: Slavic tribes came from Eastern part of Germany; the nobility was probably is related to Ossetians and the most of population are the Illyrians / Thracians who took the Slavic language. There were no Slavs in Siberia till 16th Century)

- "Albanians came from Albanian Kingdom near Azerbaijan" (wrong: some settled before Celts / Illyrians / Thracians, some actually ARE the Celts / Illyrians / Thracians)

- "Hungarians are related to Gypsies" (wrong: it's a big mixture in 21st Century and even in the 9th Century we speak about ten distinct tribes, some Turkic, some Uralic, some could be from Caucasus.)

- "Hungarians are related to Mongolians" (mostly wrong, true only as far as Mongols had many Turkic tribes with them during Batu Khan invasion and there were Turkic tribes among the ten tribes of settlement 300 years before Batu.)

But somehow these are persistent.

- "Serbs came from Siberia" (wrong: Slavic tribes came from Eastern part of Germany; the nobility was probably is related to Ossetians and the most of population are the Illyrians / Thracians who took the Slavic language. There were no Slavs in Siberia till 16th Century)
----
Nope, they moved there (Germany) from Ukraine /Belarus.


Looks like 1244 didn't prevent independence and that's obvious since the UN didn't cancel the declaration. If it was illegal, why wouldn't UNMIK cancel it?

China, with its huge growth and influence, is ready to take centre stage and thank God we have strong ties to them. The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

And who's money is gone?


CHINAS money. So no loss for US just for China

aRta:

The UN caries its orders from the Security Console which holds 1244 to be valid.
Kosovo is Serbia

Jurists around the world, writing of the situation in Kosovo, have raised many points of law in relation to the handling of the Kosovo question by the United Nations. Was the Kumanovo Agreement of 1999, which laid the foundation for United Nations Security Council resolution 1244, legally valid, or was it void under Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties as an agreement procured by the threat or use of force?
--
I reckon the Serbian army and police can return back into Kosovo based on that one. Thank you Cyprus!!

China's case was very strong indeed and adds lots of weight to Serbia's arguement, especially as a member of the security council while confirming Serbia's territorial integrity. However, Cyprus was the star of the day. It essentially rubbished the "sui generis case". In summary:
--
If the Court were once to say that it could in effect suspend the operation of the law in relation to one case because of its particular characteristics, it would establish, in the clearest possible terms, a precedent for suspending the operation of the law in relation to any case because of its particular characteristics.
--
Thank you Cyrpus. I'll be visiting next year and spending more than usual on your economy. A big Živeli to our friends!

'France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"'

Switzerland quotes the minutes of the SC meeting on June 10, 1999, where Serbia requested the wording change (to include a reference to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the FRY and a political solution based on broad autonomy). Their request was rejected, with the UK representative stating that res. 1244 sets out the key demands of the int. community that Belgrade "must satisfy" - nothing about a need for consensus here, nothing about any restrictions on the final settlement.

If China (and Argentina) missed the implications of what denying the "territorial integrity" and "sovereignty" of Serbia meant, it just seems very strange.

Having heard judiciary experts around the world after Argentine, China and especially Cyprus arguments, Serbia can sit still in the boat. Kosovo will never be an own country, believe me.

It is all very clear. 1244 is still valid. Kosovo still is a Serbian province.

The US may not like that, but hey... there are so many things I do not like in this world.

Time for real negotiations!

The Chinese are the new powerhouse and they will end up backing Serbia more than Russia can. In fact, hypothetically I think there is more chance of Russia recognizing Kosovo than the Chinese considering the circumstances China faces. It will never let go of Xinjiang, Tibet or Taiwan. I can safely assume that whatever the outcome- Kosovo will never be admitted to the UN and will remain a ward of NATO\US\EU until they are sick of paying for it. That means basically there will be no investment and despite the establishment of consulates etc there is no and there will not be any real diplomatic engagement. I think the Albanian leaders bet on the wrong horse here. Its important that the ordinary people of Kosovo who have the most to gain (and have lost the most) realize that their future is non-existent and at once urge their leaders to negotiate for a settlement that at least resembles fairness.

The Kosovo Albanians need to realize that the times have changed and the US supported them at their peak and the only reason they are supporting them now is too save face. No-one does U-turns in foreign policy- not at least immediately. Think about it and think of your children’s future!

"Sui generis means that no other country can point to Kosovo as an example justifying it in claiming its own independence because Kosovo is too different from every other case known so far.
(Amer, 8 December 2009 00:48) "

This so-called sui generis "rule" in which Kosovo's UDI cannot be used as a precedent is one that was concocted by the West and the Albanians for their own self-benefit. Most of the world definitely do not buy it, including 2 veto-wielding members in the UNSC. The fact is that every ethnic dispute is unique and so everyone of them is sui generis.

And this also means "Kosova" is destined to remain outside the UN body of recognized sovereign nations indefinitely, forever dependent on the West for handouts -- don't assume these will not dry up eventually.

Is China really friendly to Serbia with the following excerpts or it is the usual China trying to say (at least) two thing at one go?

"Although there is no international legal rule specifically and expressly prohibiting unilateral secession, (it cannot be inferred that international law is neutral on the matter...)"-
page no 34 of transcript no.6.

"To determine the legality of a unilateral secession, it is necessary to take into account the specific circumstances of each and every case..." -idem

"21. (Just as China has pointed out in its Written Statement, it was against the historical background of the decolonization movement that) the principle of self-determination evolved into a fundamental principle of international law." - page 35

I think people are missing the single biggest moral and political point so far. China is saying it did not vote for that. If it is being told that UN 1244 and the interim administration were significant factors in creating a "special case" then such resolutions will not be possible in the future. That is a crying shame because people needed protected in 1999 and people will need protected in other places (or maybe even the same place) in the future.

Big stakes, indeed.

Cyprus this town-country should be the very last country to suggest which country/territory has got the right of self-determination. It is a paradox what we are hearing in the Court...but hey here we are is one of this "gay marrages" but in a demorcratic country...we hear everything....)

When it comes to China...it will take some more time for China to undestand Europe. I know that Chinese language is very difficult....)

Each country is looking about its own interest rather than international law although everyone wants to look that they give a damn about international law.
Romania, Spain, China, Russia, Cyprus...and handful of countries which are known for their brutality against "its own" people...

10 years back this illegal act would have been gone nearly unoticed, but the world has changed and the balance of power as well, so the US got it wrong all the way down and it is not the ICJ decision that will change any of the pro and contra camps, let alone the quasi limbo in which kosovo is today.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.
(Jovan, 8 December 2009 01:29)

Yes Gjon, how about Bolivia whose democratically elected socialist government led by the native indigenous leader, President Evo Morales is facing an attempted secession of its mineral rich Santa Cruz province led by an ultra right wing, white European elite. This elite is incidentally led by a Croat whose father was an Ustasa official.

or Gjon, how about Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Nicaragua and Venezuela. They can see through this whole charade.

my dear albanian friends, and also all other readers in here,

as you all have certainly read this comment "

Ha Ha Ha! China talking about international law like they respect it!! Hmmm perhaps their position has something to do with Tibet or Taiwan?

And Cyprus - does this have anything to to with their own issues regarding Turskish controlled part of Cyprus.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.
(Jovan, 8 December 2009 01:29)"


you will very likely have come to the same conclusion as I did...

once again some rather funny albanian kid wrote a pro-albanian comment using my name.

so, of course, nobody will seriously believe that I would have written something like that comment above, I guess.

the bottom-line is:

don´t fall for all these faked "Jovans" , "Kims" or "Marinels" or "Mirceas"... it´s only these helpless albanian kiddies.

I call every decent Albanian here up to stop this quite cheapish behaviour in order to avoid further damage for the albanian "image".

"The way the question is phrased is similar to asking: “Is it illegal when I took the apple?”
"Secondly and related, a comment on the temporal character of the question before the Court. The question is somewhat oddly framed in the present tense: “Is the declaration of independence”, etc. But, of course, the question concerns a factual event which took place in the past." - Denmark.

Look Cyprus:
"63. The recognition of the characteristics of Kosovo that mark it, or may mark it out from other situations is, of course, helpful. Indeed, an analysis of Kosovo that did not give careful consideration to these characteristics would be deficient and inadequate."

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...
(Hruz, 7 December 2009 15:51)

Especially that everybody knows that they have separatist problems in Tibet and Xinkiang for a long time.
They are afraid that they will have their own Kosovos.

ZagorTeNeJ, 8 December 2009 11:00)

I'm sorry. WHat?

The reasons China is actually at these hearings is because of the Embassy bombing in Belgrade. After the bombing it made it clear that NATO will regret its actions in the future.

Another reason is to assert its power in the Global Political Theatre.

No matter which side you take the report will give a vague opinion or none at all.

Serbia has made it clear it will never abide by the opinion if it favors Kosovo/a.

For a democratic country that is a pillar of Democracy and Justice and has fought for these values as far far far back as humanity can remember, which is not that long ago, is showing its true Democratic colors...

God Bless the Balkans and all the people that died of rape, murder, ethnic cleansing, etc... LONG LIVE YUGOSLAVIA!

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, founded 1992, was renamed to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. After these two country split up, Serbia became the sole legal recognized successor state!

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)
(Top, 7 December 2009 14:53

Sure Top, the same guy that died in Hague for war crimes was the one that changed the constitution.
If I can remind you that couple years before he also took away the autonomy of Kosovo,therefore there's no point why we should pay any attention how many times Serbia like to change it's own constitution depending on peoples appetite.
As far as China defending international law I'm not worried,their past and present respect for law and rights says all,they are the ones that walked over their own people with tanks,I wish Serbia to have the same democracy standarts as their allies that supports her if thats what you want to aside with and not just cherry pick them.

I think that the Chinese are here to help and advise the West with their Tao Te Ching philosophy:

Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they can not succeed
The world is a sacred instrument
One can not control it
The one who controls it will fail
The one that grasps it will lose.

The military is a tool of misfortune
Not the tool of honorable gentlemen
When using it out of necessity
Calm detachment should be above all
Victorious but without glory
Those who glorify
Are delighted in killing
Those who delight in killing
Cannot achive their ambitions upon the world.

Serbian wisdom: Empires become strong and then they get old,blind,lose their memory, become careless and than they die broke and owing everybody.

Sam wrote:’ If Serbia is not the successor state of Yugoslavia, why did Serbia get charged with failure to prevent genocide in the Bosnia v Serbia case? It was the JNA and the state of Yugoslavia that failed to prevent genocide, but as the successor Serbia got the blame. These critics of Serbia can't have it both ways''

Sam, because the fact of the matter is that what was left of JNA was in fact a completely Serb Army of Serb Generals with Milosevic on top, thus had nothing to do with Croatia Slovenia, Macedonia etc. Again, Serbs looked for umbrella for their crimes, saying (read lying) it was the JNA and not Serbia who committed the crimes or stopped the crimes to be prevented....

It is Serbia who can’t have it both ways!!! And with regard to successor state of ex YU, this was proclaimed by a Serb parliament itself (self-proclaimed). UN did leave the seat of ex Yu to Serbia, I am not sure how far this seat does and sovereignty stretch though, as the successor act was written by Serbs themselves and not Kosovars! …. Perhaps the Int. Court in the future should look at the following question ‘’if Serbia should be a successor state the ex YU , fully, or inheriting only limited elements of ex YU, i.e. not sovereignty, in which case Vojvodina will have it easier to secede as well!

China did not say that the Declaration of Independence violates International Law, they are claiming that it violates UNR 1244.
I personally think that Kosovo Declaration of Independence was totally valid and just because of a lots of elements involved in the cause. If you want to talk about who violated what than I will remind you of the following:
TOP 3 facts are:
1. Constitution of 1974 was violated by Serbian government in 1989. Mr. Milosevic used military power to remove its institutions and their ability for independent decision making of Kosovo institutions.

2. Serbian Government and its officials have been accused and proved guilty of violating international law (war crimes, and customs of war) during the 98-99 war.

3. It is not for nothing that Kosovo always had its borders defined, Territory, Government, Parliament, History etc. and just so happens that it is inhabited by 90% of Albanians who would rather not give up their independence.

Niall, I appreciate your comment.

I'm, very proudly, Albanian. I'd never ever deny anybody the right to be proud.

I'd never say we'd invent Serbia if it didn't exist, because when Serbs came to the Balkans, we were covering the territory with a very low inhabitant density and therefore we were not able to keep it.
I anyway am interested in having a democratic Serbia in our Balkan condo. I'm sure that Serbia has a lot of value to add starting from the moment it moves from the zero-summnes to plus-sum mindset.
The world is divided by the Value Curtain nowadays: a minority of countries (20% of the world's population) generating more than 80% of the global GDP. The pro capita GDP goes from 35.000$ to 100.000$. These people see in each other a partner to be met time by time at the market place and exchange values. For this reason, the EU, while trying to do the right thing, cares to always offer a face-saving way out to the other side. This explains the nice attidude towards Serbia after the 1999 war. As an European, I strongly approve of this strategy considering the true Value that Serbia will add, one day which is not now, for the world community and for itself.

The rest of the world's population, or 80% of of it (China, Russia, Brasil, Serbia, Albania...) generate only 20% of the global GDP even during the Big Buble. Life in these part of the world, the mindset is: mine or yours, a zero-sum game, see in each other the guy who'll take you the piece of pie...the GDP p.c. in this part oscillantes from 300$ to 8.000$. China 3.600$, Serbia 4.900$.

The difference between the two world's is a blend of human rights, scientific rationalism, financial markets and communications. All simultaneously. The day Serbia, Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, BiH, ecc will enjoy a p.c. GDP of 30-40.000$ all of us will be better off. And this can never happen being conflictual in one or more than one of the four aforementioned conditions.
I'd love to be able one day to feel the same as I felt driving thru the Strasbourg bridge where flags of France and Germany waved together reminding us that after having exhausted all other options people do the right thing. Time is now. We can.

In God we trust; people must show numbers. Serbian numbers must be made first. You can not take the first league chair with second league numbers in Human Rights, Scientific Rationalism, Financial Markets and Communications.
In faith

"...France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"'

Switzerland quotes the minutes of the SC meeting on June 10, 1999, where Serbia requested the wording change (to include a reference to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the FRY and a political solution based on broad autonomy). Their request was rejected, with the UK representative stating that res. 1244 sets out the key demands of the int. community that Belgrade "must satisfy" - nothing about a need for consensus here, nothing about any restrictions on the final settlement...

(Amer, 7 December 2009 17:54)..."


>>> Well, let me answer to you in the single sentence on the legal "galimatias" you are trying to inject with your above writings and which you are repeating few times today in your "single idea" comments:

No UN resolution by Security Council, including 1244, cannot address neither undermine in legal sense territorial integrity neither sovereignty of Serbia or simply said Security Council does not have an authority for that.(equaly as they did not have an authority neither legal ground to initiate finding of Hague Tribunal for ex-Yu, but they still have violated their Security Council UN authorities and they did it).

'... It essentially rubbished the "sui generis case". In summary:
--
If the Court were once to say that it could in effect suspend the operation of the law in relation to one case because of its particular characteristics,...'

A strange interpretation of "sui generis" - nobody's saying that Kosovo was entitled to break the law because of its unique characteristics - they're saying there's simply no law either allowing or disallowing it. Sui generis means that no other country can point to Kosovo as an example justifying it in claiming its own independence because Kosovo is too different from every other case known so far.

Now China reveiled indirectly it's opinion in the cases of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Let's sit and wait, how Russia is going to answer the Kosovo question.

Hey you guys, I want to address herewith both sides. We're Balkanians and will live there forever.
Being a champion of the International law is not about occupying the chair of the international law defender. It must come from your DNA. Nobody of the countries lobbying for Serbia are true democratic and genuin human rights defenders. China is not part of the world's first 100 countries for pro capita GDP. In 1989, when Germans threw down the Berlin Wall, in Tien An Men square happened...and in Kosovo happened, what?
It's not that you decide you want to be a champion of freedom and law and it's done...You have to behave the same way also.
It's very promising that Serbia wants to become a democratic country where he right are guaranteed, but Serbia is not the epitomise of that. Not yet. We'll all be happy when it comes true. But when, not yet.

Trying to fill the gap between positioning and reality with good will only is not enough. The good will is not there anyway. This is a mere positioning for a specific interest: to regain a territory gained by war, kept by internal oppression/war and lost by war.
If you ask people who's a champion of democracy and human right don't believe they'll answer: Serbia, Rusia, China, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc. All poor countries as per international standard. Their "defense" of the international law is all pathetics and nothing arguments. The other side is all arguments (even irony) and absolutely no pathetics at all. Denmark, Croatia, Germany...Don't recall Vishynskij's retoric here...Cypru's written 70 pages...does Cyprus really know international law so well to write 70 pages of infractions? Undeveloped countries are such exactly because the law is not known and applied there. How they can they know and defend something they don't practice in their own realities resulting in backwardness?


The conclusion is:
- The international law doesn't treat the secession. (China states this opinion). And what's not expressely prohibited in the democracy is allowed. This is fondamental in the law theory. Don't confound it with the brutal regimes where what's not expressely allowed is forbidden. Some are behaving exactly this way at ICJ...
- The right of self-determination and secession is part of the international law (see China, even disliking, but conferming it).
- Kosovo's case is sui generis (see Cyprus conferming it).
The Big Boys Club, which Serbia so longs to join, is on Kosovo's side.

(Mister, 8 December 2009 23:59)
Sovereignity can not be customized. The international law regulates it. A true democracy will take care of all the issues you dealt in your comment with. As it happens with Albanians in South-Italy. I was amazed - when I first came to Italy in 1991 - to meet one Arberesh who spoke to me in Arberesh, the Albanian of the 15th century. He was surprised that I did not understand him thouroughly and - very moved by the situation - I asked him to write it down. I understood more from the written words than spoken. When bloggers write here and there that Albanians came to the Balkans during the XVII Century from (!!!) I'd like to put them a simple question: how long did these Arberesh live in today's Albanian land before leaving to Italy during the 15th century? How old is our language? Did you ever see the Languages Tree?

It is not the Albanian gov't to take care of the Arberesh there. It is the democracy to be keenly interested in developing the Arberesh/Albanian culture in those areas. It is the Italian Gov't to locate funds and agree with Tirana's University to send professors there and teach people. Italy loses nothing here, only gains. But Italy is a great democracy which your country and mine are not. Not yet.

There's no matter at all that Serbs came to the Balkans during the VI Century or earlier...Serbs are home in the Balkans and have created their own life, civility and values. Yes, Balkans killed each other for the piece of pie more than often but this was a favourite pastime in the Balkans and in Europe for the most of the history. Albanians were busy trying to survive as the loniest, the aloniest and the smallest. Since nobody can undo the facts let's find the best way to spend the life God granted us. The worst is to kill each other. The best is still to be found. Let's try.

The Serbian people's interests and monuments in Kosovo should never depend on the wishes or protection of bureaucrats or bureaucracies but as a genuine interest in cultivating values inherited from the past. If we think of distribution of the existing only, we'll fall in the zero-summness for which we are at judgement at ICJ...

It is the global community, the UN to protect - under a very serious program - the World Heritage wherever they are.

People must be busy creating values, so the more we create the more is there to be exchanged.

Ha Ha Ha! China talking about international law like they respect it!! Hmmm perhaps their position has something to do with Tibet or Taiwan?

And Cyprus - does this have anything to to with their own issues regarding Turskish controlled part of Cyprus.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.

Is that no then?

(gjon cima, 8 December 2009 19:39)

Would you support joint sovereignty and UN membership that is effectively controlled by Pristina save for:

1. Belgrade has a dual role in Serb areas.

2. Belgrade has a part in the sanctity of Serb history and culture including religious and other monuments of importance to Serbia

3. Serbian military are never allowed in Kosovo but there are international guarantors for security

4. Both governments actively promote reconciliation and provide the most sever punishment for those who commit acts against either community,

5. that Serb areas have full autonomy

6. That people involved in the KLA should make way for others in government

7. The new UN country should be called the Albanian and Serbian Republic of Kosovo.

I must stop drinking!

A country which abuses his own citizens as admitted by Serb delegation in ICJ hearings, has no right to rule them. If Serbia, is looking for int'l law protection, while it violated this law over and over again when it abused the Albanian population in Kosovo, than what kind of precedent is that? Kill and murder cause you will always be saved by int'l law?


K-Alb will never rest in peace under Serbia, it is only natural.

What people in their sane mind would like to reside in a state with such precedents and in a country who literally dispises them, hates them, and believes they do not belong there.

China doesn't even know what is violation of international law nor the meaning of Democracy. It is in pair with serbia and Russia and No doubt it will support someone alike.

''Serbia is the successor state to the SRJ''!!

WOW hold on Mr. China, what is this?! A broom without a handle is a brush and not ''still a broom''!!!why not Croatia or Bosnia or Macedonia (can they please represent the ex SRFJ?)! this is the only card that Serbia can play, if anyone believes in that 'Serbia is the successor of SRJ!, noting that in the 1244 Serbia is not mentioned but SRJ, which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.

Kosovo will win this case!!!Crystal clear!!!

Resolution 1244 does not recognize Serbia as the successor Yugoslavia.

i like the fact that most nations supporting serbia have a brutal human rights record.

Pro-Serbian arguments re extremely boring and repetitive.

Soveignity; territorial integrity bla bla bla... again and again these same 2 arguments

nothing about values, moral, democracy, freedom

only pure arrogance of I am stronger and I placed that piece of land under my jurisdiction now all the world must respect my terrotorial integrity. Well we are not in jungle.

You cannot occupie Tibet and prettend to be China and at the same time want Taiwan as well.

It is completely OK with the Chinese culture and values the Mao's definition of the sovreignity of the states: it omes from the barrel of the gun.

In democracy the sovreignity comes from the people. And the people in Kosova don't want even to hear for Serbia.

Can't be more clear than this.

and don't hope that ICJ will tale Kosova that is not under Serbia since June 1999 to go back under Serbia. ICJ will caus a new war. That's for sure.

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...

China is far away! What did Croatia said?!

China, with its huge growth and influence, is ready to take centre stage and thank God we have strong ties to them. The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

And who's money is gone?


CHINAS money. So no loss for US just for China

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark..

"WOW hold on Mr. China, what is this?! A broom without a handle is a brush and not ''still a broom''!!!why not Croatia or Bosnia or Macedonia (can they please represent the ex SRFJ?)! this is the only card that Serbia can play, if anyone believes in that 'Serbia is the successor of SRJ!, noting that in the 1244 Serbia is not mentioned but SRJ, which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.
(ZagorTeNeJ, 7 December 2009 13:36)"

You are the one who is throughly confused. Let me enlighten you.

1244 referred to 1999's Yugoslavia (comprising Serbia and Montenegro), not Tito's Yugoslavia (which included Croatia and Bosnia).

And when Montenegro left 1999's Yugoslavia, the UN recognized Serbia as the successor to the UN seat for Yugoslavia. That is why Montenegro had to reapply to the UN as a new member whereas Serbia simply took over the UN seat for 1999's Yugoslavia. You should be clearer now, I hope.

Cyprus this town-country should be the very last country to suggest which country/territory has got the right of self-determination. It is a paradox what we are hearing in the Court...but hey here we are is one of this "gay marrages" but in a demorcratic country...we hear everything....)

When it comes to China...it will take some more time for China to undestand Europe. I know that Chinese language is very difficult....)

Each country is looking about its own interest rather than international law although everyone wants to look that they give a damn about international law.
Romania, Spain, China, Russia, Cyprus...and handful of countries which are known for their brutality against "its own" people...

The reasons China is actually at these hearings is because of the Embassy bombing in Belgrade. After the bombing it made it clear that NATO will regret its actions in the future.

Another reason is to assert its power in the Global Political Theatre.

No matter which side you take the report will give a vague opinion or none at all.

Serbia has made it clear it will never abide by the opinion if it favors Kosovo/a.

For a democratic country that is a pillar of Democracy and Justice and has fought for these values as far far far back as humanity can remember, which is not that long ago, is showing its true Democratic colors...

God Bless the Balkans and all the people that died of rape, murder, ethnic cleansing, etc... LONG LIVE YUGOSLAVIA!

- "Serbs came from Siberia" (wrong: Slavic tribes came from Eastern part of Germany; the nobility was probably is related to Ossetians and the most of population are the Illyrians / Thracians who took the Slavic language. There were no Slavs in Siberia till 16th Century)
----
Nope, they moved there (Germany) from Ukraine /Belarus.


Looks like 1244 didn't prevent independence and that's obvious since the UN didn't cancel the declaration. If it was illegal, why wouldn't UNMIK cancel it?

China rejected interpretations that the provision of the resolution that guaranteed integrity and sovereignty was "unbinding", with its legal representative telling the ICJ today that Beijing in 1999 insisted that this provision be included in the resolution, which came after NATO's illegal military attack.

"For this reason China did not block Resolution 1244," Hanchin emphasized.
--
I think it's fair to say that China was a much stronger supporter of Serbia back in the 90's than Russia.

It is great to have such a heavy weight supporter on our side and for China to argue its point at the international court, for the first time in history, shows that it is ready to play hardball and to get involved in international politics much more.

China, with its huge growth and influence, is ready to take centre stage and thank God we have strong ties to them. The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.

I am really bored by these endless reiterations of poorly informed writers here..

can it really be true that someone who is interested in this issue and writes here STILL does not know that Serbia is in fact the successor-state of the former yugoslav states?

I mean, are they really that ill-informed or just ignorants?

anyway, fact is: they don´t know what they are writing about, and that´s a phenomenon very often seen among our dear albanian friends who write here on a regular basis.

I really hope they will learn something through the ICJ-opinions published here, since this will avoid them of having a bad awakening in the future.

but once again, I must say I am very astonished to see ignorance of that magnitude.

That will be a disaster for Chinese - since they own a big chunk of the US. Most likely they will help out. Probably not for free.
(Ataman, 7 December 2009 15:04)
--
Ataman, it will be a disaster for the world but an ever bigger disaster for the US (and the West) - which will lose so much of its influence. I have considered a few scenarios, one being the drawing of an iron curtain around the west but the more likely scenario is the formation of a world currency and removing the US dollar for the equation.

In my opinion, the US is gone while China will emerg as the new world power.

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...
(Hruz, 7 December 2009 15:51)

Especially that everybody knows that they have separatist problems in Tibet and Xinkiang for a long time.
They are afraid that they will have their own Kosovos.

"Resolution 1244 does not recognize Serbia as the successor Yugoslavia.
(genti, 7 December 2009 14:08)"

I am squirming with embarrassment for you.

'France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"'

Switzerland quotes the minutes of the SC meeting on June 10, 1999, where Serbia requested the wording change (to include a reference to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the FRY and a political solution based on broad autonomy). Their request was rejected, with the UK representative stating that res. 1244 sets out the key demands of the int. community that Belgrade "must satisfy" - nothing about a need for consensus here, nothing about any restrictions on the final settlement.

If China (and Argentina) missed the implications of what denying the "territorial integrity" and "sovereignty" of Serbia meant, it just seems very strange.

China rejected interpretations that the provision of the resolution that guaranteed integrity and sovereignty was "unbinding", with its legal representative telling the ICJ today that Beijing in 1999 insisted that this provision be included in the resolution, which came after NATO's illegal military attack.

-The only country so far to state the obvious and very crucial fact that Serbia was illegally bombed for 78 days.
And for those who don't know why it was illegal, I will just remind you that UNSC never approved bombardment of Serbia, the then SRY.

"There is no doubt that after the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Kosovo was a part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is, Serbia. Integral parts of sovereign states, under international law, do not have a right to unilateral secession

-Once again very crucial statement considering the fact that Albanians had secessionist’s aspirations for many decades and those aspirations were very often based on usage of brutal methods against the Serbs in the province of Kosovo and Metohija. Creation of terrorist military formation UCK and their actions against the civilians and authorities in the province
required the official response from the capital city of Belgrade. Every country in this world has the right to defend its citizens from the terrorists and Serbia had no reason to believe that she was denied those same rights applicable to other countries that dealt with terrorism.

The Chinese representative rejected claims coming from the countries which recognized Kosovo that the negotiating process had been exhausted, stressing that this could only have been ascertained by the UN Security Council, which was entitled to decide on the further measures.

-Of course, this time too the UN has been ignored because everyone knew that they could not find any way out for independence proclamation. And why is that? Well, simply because there is that “nasty” resolution 1244 (still very much alive and in force) which guarantees Serbian sovereignty and territorial integrity that cannot be ignored. That’s why they came out with bizarre Ahtisari’s plan and “unique case” nonsense without giving any valid explanation what is so unique in regard to Kosovo case.
Even now in this court some countries repeat “unique case” but failing to explain uniqueness,
In one word, they are all aware that everything in regard to Kosovo was and is still illegal.

Unfortunately for our dear Albanian posters that they cannot read over here Croatian and Denmark’s legal stance on Kosovo matter.
I can only say it was very poor, while Croatia even used lies stating that Kosovo was constitutional part of SFRY which is of course a lie. According to the then constitution Albanians were national minority within Serbia and entire SFRY with the autonomy in Kosovo. No need to say how capable they were to ran the province those days and in what manner they abused all the power they had.

aRta:

The UN caries its orders from the Security Console which holds 1244 to be valid.
Kosovo is Serbia

which no longer exist as a country (hello!!), and thus 1244 does not apply in terms of sovereignty.
(ZagorTeNeJ, 7 December 2009 13:36)
--
1244 refers to FRY, which changed its name to Serbia after Montenegro split. This is not SRJ but China claims Serbia is the successor state to SRJ, like Russia is to the USSR.

FRY was created in 1992 by Serbia and Montengero. SRJ was created earlier and FRY claimed successor state to SRJ but not everyone agreed. However, 1244 refers to FRY so there is no dispute who it refers to.

Remember China Who? *PUTINMAN* Who?Brazil Who?India Who?I am not so happy to report but many people in those countries are now saying US Who? Since you Albanians seem to be an authority on all nations from economy and history to political philosophy,I think you should get on their blog sites and enlighten those people.In the meantime someone should bring to Thaci's attention that the new counter-bloggers he hired are all ill-informed and therefore very boring and not up to the level of other bloggers and readers that visit this site.Go and blog with the Croats,you are so much closer to one another in mentality, intellegence,morals and have so many other things in common.Give us Serbs a break---can't you see our borders and see that we are virtually surrounded by ex-Nazis and their symphatizers?

"It is completely OK with the Chinese culture and values the Mao's definition of the sovreignity of the states: it comes from the barrel of the gun."

This is a perfect analogy and I can also use it in reference to USA/NATO's actions against YU/Serbia in 1999. This means our version of "international law" came from the barrel of a gun and we are no better than Maoist China.

Good luck to Serbia's diplomatic fight to maintain her sovereignty.

"Pro-Serbian arguments re extremely boring and repetitive.

Soveignity; territorial integrity bla bla bla... again and again these same 2 arguments" (ben)

-- Yeah, I know right? All the legal and legitimate stuff. Who wants to have one's opinions challenged with data like that?

"For this reason China did not block Resolution 1244," Hanchin emphasized.

This essentially countering the French argument, thanks for that.
French argumentation was pretty strong but IMO Chinese were successful to counter it.

--

I think it's fair to say that China was a much stronger supporter of Serbia back in the 90's than Russia.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

Russia was under permanent influence of vodka and oligarhs. Yeltsin's start was rotten because his goal was to pull the country from underneath of Gorbachyov underhanded way - if necessary, by dissolving the Soviet Union. The finish (pulling Ka-Ge-Beshnik Putin out of nowhere in agreement: remain unpunished in exchange for support of Putin's presidency) was even worse.

And in the middle during the whole YU-bombing he was rarely if ever sober. Many meetings with US and YU representatives had to be postponed because the host was meeting with "Stolichnaya".

--

It is great to have such a heavy weight supporter on our side and for China to argue its point at the international court, for the first time in history, shows that it is ready to play hardball and to get involved in international politics much more.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03

Chinese argumentation was pretty strong, let's see what Croatia will pull out.

--

The US, on the other hand, has about 18 months (and counting) before it defaults on its loans.
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 14:03)

That will be a disaster for Chinese - since they own a big chunk of the US. Most likely they will help out. Probably not for free.

i like the fact that most nations supporting Serbia have a brutal human rights record.
(xythi, 7 December 2009 14:32)

-

What about Albania's & Croatia's poor human rights record?

Ha Ha Ha! China talking about international law like they respect it!! Hmmm perhaps their position has something to do with Tibet or Taiwan?

And Cyprus - does this have anything to to with their own issues regarding Turskish controlled part of Cyprus.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.

China did not say that the Declaration of Independence violates International Law, they are claiming that it violates UNR 1244.
I personally think that Kosovo Declaration of Independence was totally valid and just because of a lots of elements involved in the cause. If you want to talk about who violated what than I will remind you of the following:
TOP 3 facts are:
1. Constitution of 1974 was violated by Serbian government in 1989. Mr. Milosevic used military power to remove its institutions and their ability for independent decision making of Kosovo institutions.

2. Serbian Government and its officials have been accused and proved guilty of violating international law (war crimes, and customs of war) during the 98-99 war.

3. It is not for nothing that Kosovo always had its borders defined, Territory, Government, Parliament, History etc. and just so happens that it is inhabited by 90% of Albanians who would rather not give up their independence.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, founded 1992, was renamed to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. After these two country split up, Serbia became the sole legal recognized successor state!

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)

China quoting international law is less credible than a lion advocating vegetarian lifestyle...
(Hruz, 7 December 2009 15:51)

China is the member of UNSC and the diet of lions or dragons is irrelevant.
What is relevant: if they testify, how the 1244 was adopted by UNSC, nullifying what France did say. France testimony was extremely strong, Chinese were successful to counter it.

-

China doesn't even know what is violation of international law nor the meaning of Democracy. It is in pair with serbia and Russia and No doubt it will support someone alike.
(PRN, 7 December 2009 15:28)

China could be the Big Bad Evil Empire - at this point it is irrelevant. What the court is primarily looking for is how to interpret 1244. From that point of view France's testimony was important and Chinese crucial.

We are looking basically into a simple question:

"Is UDI a cheating with 1244 being used as a cover or UDI was originally a possibility embedded in 1244?"

France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"

China is far away! What did Croatia said?!
(Dane, 7 December 2009 14:39)

Do you honestly think that Croatia is any sort of a match to China?
What has distance got to do with it?

Go and tell your master the US to mind their own business too because they are not next door either.

but once again, I must say I am very astonished to see ignorance of that magnitude.
(Jovan, 7 December 2009 14:56)

Jovane,
I am not surprised at all :)

Sam wrote:’ If Serbia is not the successor state of Yugoslavia, why did Serbia get charged with failure to prevent genocide in the Bosnia v Serbia case? It was the JNA and the state of Yugoslavia that failed to prevent genocide, but as the successor Serbia got the blame. These critics of Serbia can't have it both ways''

Sam, because the fact of the matter is that what was left of JNA was in fact a completely Serb Army of Serb Generals with Milosevic on top, thus had nothing to do with Croatia Slovenia, Macedonia etc. Again, Serbs looked for umbrella for their crimes, saying (read lying) it was the JNA and not Serbia who committed the crimes or stopped the crimes to be prevented....

It is Serbia who can’t have it both ways!!! And with regard to successor state of ex YU, this was proclaimed by a Serb parliament itself (self-proclaimed). UN did leave the seat of ex Yu to Serbia, I am not sure how far this seat does and sovereignty stretch though, as the successor act was written by Serbs themselves and not Kosovars! …. Perhaps the Int. Court in the future should look at the following question ‘’if Serbia should be a successor state the ex YU , fully, or inheriting only limited elements of ex YU, i.e. not sovereignty, in which case Vojvodina will have it easier to secede as well!

If Serbia is not the successor state of Yugoslavia, why did Serbia get charged with failure to prevent genocide in the Bosnia v Serbia case? It was the JNA and the state of Yugoslavia that failed to prevent genocide, but as the successor Serbia got the blame. These critics of Serbia can't have it both ways.

By the way has anyone read the transcript? Thus far none of Kosovo's allies have argued that Serbia is not the successor state to Yugoslavia. This must mean their legal team looked closely at this and realised they didn't have a leg to stand on.

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)
(Top, 7 December 2009 14:53)

Yes, this is one of few major urban legends:

- "Serbs came from Siberia" (wrong: Slavic tribes came from Eastern part of Germany; the nobility was probably is related to Ossetians and the most of population are the Illyrians / Thracians who took the Slavic language. There were no Slavs in Siberia till 16th Century)

- "Albanians came from Albanian Kingdom near Azerbaijan" (wrong: some settled before Celts / Illyrians / Thracians, some actually ARE the Celts / Illyrians / Thracians)

- "Hungarians are related to Gypsies" (wrong: it's a big mixture in 21st Century and even in the 9th Century we speak about ten distinct tribes, some Turkic, some Uralic, some could be from Caucasus.)

- "Hungarians are related to Mongolians" (mostly wrong, true only as far as Mongols had many Turkic tribes with them during Batu Khan invasion and there were Turkic tribes among the ten tribes of settlement 300 years before Batu.)

But somehow these are persistent.

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, founded 1992, was renamed to "Serbia and Montenegro" in 2003. After these two country split up, Serbia became the sole legal recognized successor state!

If some people think the UDI can be justified because resolution 1244 is referring only to the territorial intetegrity of Yugoslavia, this is simply wrong. Find other reasons, this isn't one :-)
(Top, 7 December 2009 14:53

Sure Top, the same guy that died in Hague for war crimes was the one that changed the constitution.
If I can remind you that couple years before he also took away the autonomy of Kosovo,therefore there's no point why we should pay any attention how many times Serbia like to change it's own constitution depending on peoples appetite.
As far as China defending international law I'm not worried,their past and present respect for law and rights says all,they are the ones that walked over their own people with tanks,I wish Serbia to have the same democracy standarts as their allies that supports her if thats what you want to aside with and not just cherry pick them.

It is all very clear. 1244 is still valid. Kosovo still is a Serbian province.

The US may not like that, but hey... there are so many things I do not like in this world.

Time for real negotiations!

Is China really friendly to Serbia with the following excerpts or it is the usual China trying to say (at least) two thing at one go?

"Although there is no international legal rule specifically and expressly prohibiting unilateral secession, (it cannot be inferred that international law is neutral on the matter...)"-
page no 34 of transcript no.6.

"To determine the legality of a unilateral secession, it is necessary to take into account the specific circumstances of each and every case..." -idem

"21. (Just as China has pointed out in its Written Statement, it was against the historical background of the decolonization movement that) the principle of self-determination evolved into a fundamental principle of international law." - page 35

Hey you guys, I want to address herewith both sides. We're Balkanians and will live there forever.
Being a champion of the International law is not about occupying the chair of the international law defender. It must come from your DNA. Nobody of the countries lobbying for Serbia are true democratic and genuin human rights defenders. China is not part of the world's first 100 countries for pro capita GDP. In 1989, when Germans threw down the Berlin Wall, in Tien An Men square happened...and in Kosovo happened, what?
It's not that you decide you want to be a champion of freedom and law and it's done...You have to behave the same way also.
It's very promising that Serbia wants to become a democratic country where he right are guaranteed, but Serbia is not the epitomise of that. Not yet. We'll all be happy when it comes true. But when, not yet.

Trying to fill the gap between positioning and reality with good will only is not enough. The good will is not there anyway. This is a mere positioning for a specific interest: to regain a territory gained by war, kept by internal oppression/war and lost by war.
If you ask people who's a champion of democracy and human right don't believe they'll answer: Serbia, Rusia, China, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc. All poor countries as per international standard. Their "defense" of the international law is all pathetics and nothing arguments. The other side is all arguments (even irony) and absolutely no pathetics at all. Denmark, Croatia, Germany...Don't recall Vishynskij's retoric here...Cypru's written 70 pages...does Cyprus really know international law so well to write 70 pages of infractions? Undeveloped countries are such exactly because the law is not known and applied there. How they can they know and defend something they don't practice in their own realities resulting in backwardness?


The conclusion is:
- The international law doesn't treat the secession. (China states this opinion). And what's not expressely prohibited in the democracy is allowed. This is fondamental in the law theory. Don't confound it with the brutal regimes where what's not expressely allowed is forbidden. Some are behaving exactly this way at ICJ...
- The right of self-determination and secession is part of the international law (see China, even disliking, but conferming it).
- Kosovo's case is sui generis (see Cyprus conferming it).
The Big Boys Club, which Serbia so longs to join, is on Kosovo's side.

'... It essentially rubbished the "sui generis case". In summary:
--
If the Court were once to say that it could in effect suspend the operation of the law in relation to one case because of its particular characteristics,...'

A strange interpretation of "sui generis" - nobody's saying that Kosovo was entitled to break the law because of its unique characteristics - they're saying there's simply no law either allowing or disallowing it. Sui generis means that no other country can point to Kosovo as an example justifying it in claiming its own independence because Kosovo is too different from every other case known so far.

The Americans need the Chinese to continuge buying their debt. Other countries are count on China for trade. So,if it is convenient for China to press for a resolution in Serbias favor, it means the illegal Kosov"A" state is dead.

Niall, I appreciate your comment.

I'm, very proudly, Albanian. I'd never ever deny anybody the right to be proud.

I'd never say we'd invent Serbia if it didn't exist, because when Serbs came to the Balkans, we were covering the territory with a very low inhabitant density and therefore we were not able to keep it.
I anyway am interested in having a democratic Serbia in our Balkan condo. I'm sure that Serbia has a lot of value to add starting from the moment it moves from the zero-summnes to plus-sum mindset.
The world is divided by the Value Curtain nowadays: a minority of countries (20% of the world's population) generating more than 80% of the global GDP. The pro capita GDP goes from 35.000$ to 100.000$. These people see in each other a partner to be met time by time at the market place and exchange values. For this reason, the EU, while trying to do the right thing, cares to always offer a face-saving way out to the other side. This explains the nice attidude towards Serbia after the 1999 war. As an European, I strongly approve of this strategy considering the true Value that Serbia will add, one day which is not now, for the world community and for itself.

The rest of the world's population, or 80% of of it (China, Russia, Brasil, Serbia, Albania...) generate only 20% of the global GDP even during the Big Buble. Life in these part of the world, the mindset is: mine or yours, a zero-sum game, see in each other the guy who'll take you the piece of pie...the GDP p.c. in this part oscillantes from 300$ to 8.000$. China 3.600$, Serbia 4.900$.

The difference between the two world's is a blend of human rights, scientific rationalism, financial markets and communications. All simultaneously. The day Serbia, Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, BiH, ecc will enjoy a p.c. GDP of 30-40.000$ all of us will be better off. And this can never happen being conflictual in one or more than one of the four aforementioned conditions.
I'd love to be able one day to feel the same as I felt driving thru the Strasbourg bridge where flags of France and Germany waved together reminding us that after having exhausted all other options people do the right thing. Time is now. We can.

In God we trust; people must show numbers. Serbian numbers must be made first. You can not take the first league chair with second league numbers in Human Rights, Scientific Rationalism, Financial Markets and Communications.
In faith

"The way the question is phrased is similar to asking: “Is it illegal when I took the apple?”
"Secondly and related, a comment on the temporal character of the question before the Court. The question is somewhat oddly framed in the present tense: “Is the declaration of independence”, etc. But, of course, the question concerns a factual event which took place in the past." - Denmark.

Look Cyprus:
"63. The recognition of the characteristics of Kosovo that mark it, or may mark it out from other situations is, of course, helpful. Indeed, an analysis of Kosovo that did not give careful consideration to these characteristics would be deficient and inadequate."

Jurists around the world, writing of the situation in Kosovo, have raised many points of law in relation to the handling of the Kosovo question by the United Nations. Was the Kumanovo Agreement of 1999, which laid the foundation for United Nations Security Council resolution 1244, legally valid, or was it void under Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties as an agreement procured by the threat or use of force?
--
I reckon the Serbian army and police can return back into Kosovo based on that one. Thank you Cyprus!!

The Chinese are the new powerhouse and they will end up backing Serbia more than Russia can. In fact, hypothetically I think there is more chance of Russia recognizing Kosovo than the Chinese considering the circumstances China faces. It will never let go of Xinjiang, Tibet or Taiwan. I can safely assume that whatever the outcome- Kosovo will never be admitted to the UN and will remain a ward of NATO\US\EU until they are sick of paying for it. That means basically there will be no investment and despite the establishment of consulates etc there is no and there will not be any real diplomatic engagement. I think the Albanian leaders bet on the wrong horse here. Its important that the ordinary people of Kosovo who have the most to gain (and have lost the most) realize that their future is non-existent and at once urge their leaders to negotiate for a settlement that at least resembles fairness.

The Kosovo Albanians need to realize that the times have changed and the US supported them at their peak and the only reason they are supporting them now is too save face. No-one does U-turns in foreign policy- not at least immediately. Think about it and think of your children’s future!

I think people are missing the single biggest moral and political point so far. China is saying it did not vote for that. If it is being told that UN 1244 and the interim administration were significant factors in creating a "special case" then such resolutions will not be possible in the future. That is a crying shame because people needed protected in 1999 and people will need protected in other places (or maybe even the same place) in the future.

Big stakes, indeed.

China's case was very strong indeed and adds lots of weight to Serbia's arguement, especially as a member of the security council while confirming Serbia's territorial integrity. However, Cyprus was the star of the day. It essentially rubbished the "sui generis case". In summary:
--
If the Court were once to say that it could in effect suspend the operation of the law in relation to one case because of its particular characteristics, it would establish, in the clearest possible terms, a precedent for suspending the operation of the law in relation to any case because of its particular characteristics.
--
Thank you Cyrpus. I'll be visiting next year and spending more than usual on your economy. A big Živeli to our friends!

A country which abuses his own citizens as admitted by Serb delegation in ICJ hearings, has no right to rule them. If Serbia, is looking for int'l law protection, while it violated this law over and over again when it abused the Albanian population in Kosovo, than what kind of precedent is that? Kill and murder cause you will always be saved by int'l law?


K-Alb will never rest in peace under Serbia, it is only natural.

What people in their sane mind would like to reside in a state with such precedents and in a country who literally dispises them, hates them, and believes they do not belong there.

Having heard judiciary experts around the world after Argentine, China and especially Cyprus arguments, Serbia can sit still in the boat. Kosovo will never be an own country, believe me.

Now China reveiled indirectly it's opinion in the cases of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Let's sit and wait, how Russia is going to answer the Kosovo question.

ZagorTeNeJ, 8 December 2009 11:00)

I'm sorry. WHat?

"...France: "UDI was a possibility from the begin on because FRY/Serbia was concerned about that from the begin on"
China: "If we would be aware, we would not vote for 1244 to begin with"'

Switzerland quotes the minutes of the SC meeting on June 10, 1999, where Serbia requested the wording change (to include a reference to the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the FRY and a political solution based on broad autonomy). Their request was rejected, with the UK representative stating that res. 1244 sets out the key demands of the int. community that Belgrade "must satisfy" - nothing about a need for consensus here, nothing about any restrictions on the final settlement...

(Amer, 7 December 2009 17:54)..."


>>> Well, let me answer to you in the single sentence on the legal "galimatias" you are trying to inject with your above writings and which you are repeating few times today in your "single idea" comments:

No UN resolution by Security Council, including 1244, cannot address neither undermine in legal sense territorial integrity neither sovereignty of Serbia or simply said Security Council does not have an authority for that.(equaly as they did not have an authority neither legal ground to initiate finding of Hague Tribunal for ex-Yu, but they still have violated their Security Council UN authorities and they did it).

"Sui generis means that no other country can point to Kosovo as an example justifying it in claiming its own independence because Kosovo is too different from every other case known so far.
(Amer, 8 December 2009 00:48) "

This so-called sui generis "rule" in which Kosovo's UDI cannot be used as a precedent is one that was concocted by the West and the Albanians for their own self-benefit. Most of the world definitely do not buy it, including 2 veto-wielding members in the UNSC. The fact is that every ethnic dispute is unique and so everyone of them is sui generis.

And this also means "Kosova" is destined to remain outside the UN body of recognized sovereign nations indefinitely, forever dependent on the West for handouts -- don't assume these will not dry up eventually.

10 years back this illegal act would have been gone nearly unoticed, but the world has changed and the balance of power as well, so the US got it wrong all the way down and it is not the ICJ decision that will change any of the pro and contra camps, let alone the quasi limbo in which kosovo is today.

(gjon cima, 8 December 2009 19:39)

Would you support joint sovereignty and UN membership that is effectively controlled by Pristina save for:

1. Belgrade has a dual role in Serb areas.

2. Belgrade has a part in the sanctity of Serb history and culture including religious and other monuments of importance to Serbia

3. Serbian military are never allowed in Kosovo but there are international guarantors for security

4. Both governments actively promote reconciliation and provide the most sever punishment for those who commit acts against either community,

5. that Serb areas have full autonomy

6. That people involved in the KLA should make way for others in government

7. The new UN country should be called the Albanian and Serbian Republic of Kosovo.

I must stop drinking!

I think that the Chinese are here to help and advise the West with their Tao Te Ching philosophy:

Those who wish to take the world and control it
I see that they can not succeed
The world is a sacred instrument
One can not control it
The one who controls it will fail
The one that grasps it will lose.

The military is a tool of misfortune
Not the tool of honorable gentlemen
When using it out of necessity
Calm detachment should be above all
Victorious but without glory
Those who glorify
Are delighted in killing
Those who delight in killing
Cannot achive their ambitions upon the world.

Serbian wisdom: Empires become strong and then they get old,blind,lose their memory, become careless and than they die broke and owing everybody.

my dear albanian friends, and also all other readers in here,

as you all have certainly read this comment "

Ha Ha Ha! China talking about international law like they respect it!! Hmmm perhaps their position has something to do with Tibet or Taiwan?

And Cyprus - does this have anything to to with their own issues regarding Turskish controlled part of Cyprus.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.
(Jovan, 8 December 2009 01:29)"


you will very likely have come to the same conclusion as I did...

once again some rather funny albanian kid wrote a pro-albanian comment using my name.

so, of course, nobody will seriously believe that I would have written something like that comment above, I guess.

the bottom-line is:

don´t fall for all these faked "Jovans" , "Kims" or "Marinels" or "Mirceas"... it´s only these helpless albanian kiddies.

I call every decent Albanian here up to stop this quite cheapish behaviour in order to avoid further damage for the albanian "image".

(Mister, 8 December 2009 23:59)
Sovereignity can not be customized. The international law regulates it. A true democracy will take care of all the issues you dealt in your comment with. As it happens with Albanians in South-Italy. I was amazed - when I first came to Italy in 1991 - to meet one Arberesh who spoke to me in Arberesh, the Albanian of the 15th century. He was surprised that I did not understand him thouroughly and - very moved by the situation - I asked him to write it down. I understood more from the written words than spoken. When bloggers write here and there that Albanians came to the Balkans during the XVII Century from (!!!) I'd like to put them a simple question: how long did these Arberesh live in today's Albanian land before leaving to Italy during the 15th century? How old is our language? Did you ever see the Languages Tree?

It is not the Albanian gov't to take care of the Arberesh there. It is the democracy to be keenly interested in developing the Arberesh/Albanian culture in those areas. It is the Italian Gov't to locate funds and agree with Tirana's University to send professors there and teach people. Italy loses nothing here, only gains. But Italy is a great democracy which your country and mine are not. Not yet.

There's no matter at all that Serbs came to the Balkans during the VI Century or earlier...Serbs are home in the Balkans and have created their own life, civility and values. Yes, Balkans killed each other for the piece of pie more than often but this was a favourite pastime in the Balkans and in Europe for the most of the history. Albanians were busy trying to survive as the loniest, the aloniest and the smallest. Since nobody can undo the facts let's find the best way to spend the life God granted us. The worst is to kill each other. The best is still to be found. Let's try.

The Serbian people's interests and monuments in Kosovo should never depend on the wishes or protection of bureaucrats or bureaucracies but as a genuine interest in cultivating values inherited from the past. If we think of distribution of the existing only, we'll fall in the zero-summness for which we are at judgement at ICJ...

It is the global community, the UN to protect - under a very serious program - the World Heritage wherever they are.

People must be busy creating values, so the more we create the more is there to be exchanged.

Perhaps we should get some credible help, people who have actually adhered to international law in the past.
(Jovan, 8 December 2009 01:29)

Yes Gjon, how about Bolivia whose democratically elected socialist government led by the native indigenous leader, President Evo Morales is facing an attempted secession of its mineral rich Santa Cruz province led by an ultra right wing, white European elite. This elite is incidentally led by a Croat whose father was an Ustasa official.

or Gjon, how about Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Nicaragua and Venezuela. They can see through this whole charade.

Is that no then?