I'm just mentioning that it isn't quite as simple as where you live at either local or state level. It's never going to be a simple issues in these circumstances. I'm not disagreeing with you. That's all.
We are talking about voting rights in a federal political/electoral system, in which the citizens have voting rights at state, republican and local levels.
While all citizens of the state have an equal right to vote at state-level elections and decision, you choose yourself where you want to excercise your right to vote at local and republican-level elections based on where you register your residency.
In the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, citizens of both republics had of course the right to vote at the federal State Union level.
But just as Serbs with residence and the right to vote at local and Montenegrin (republican) elections could and should not at the same time have the right to vote for the elections to the Serbian Parliament, neither could or should Montenegrins with ditto residence and local/republican voting rights in Serbia have the right to vote at the Montenegrin referendum. Its that simple.
Jessie
Jessie,
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
(Mister, 8 December 2009 22:56)
Oh dear Marinels, descending to ad hominem attacks for lack of decent argument?
"Yes but, no but, yes but, no but".
As long as we don't mention the 500,000 iraqi children that died due to sanctions between 1991 and 2003, not to mentions the deaths consequently etc... but that's ok, they died for the right reasons.
Interesting choice of morals indeed.
BTW, I don't remember commenting on my origins so how would you know? As I said, please keep on commenting.
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
“Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!”
As clear as I said. Such countries have equal votes in the UN but can not be taken as democracy prayers as Serbia portraits them. Their vote is exactly what Serbia cares of and nothing else in essence. As for those democratic countries attacking the others, check your clock first before commenting. Probably you time is right behind such as of China, Russia, India, Venezuela or Iran who has been recently visited by your officials. They have the same records concerning the human rights as Serbia had/has some years ago. As Russian you should have quite bitter memories from democratic countries. If that is what you are referring to than the next time mention it because it helps much to examine you comments.
My point was that people should exercise their vote in the territory or republic they live and see their future in, in line with the democratic principle that those most affected by a political decision should have the biggest say in how it is made.
As for the amount of Montenegrins in Serbia, you know very well that many, if not most, of them were born and lived their whole life in Serbia, but were born to fathers with registered place of birth in Montenegro. The point is that in SFRY this didn't matter for any practical purposes, because what mattered was the SFRY citizenship and passport, and where your residence was registered. Hence, there were no reasons for children of Montenegrin fathers living in Serbia, or indeed elsewhere, to change their 'national' citizenship to correspond with the republic in which they lived, and gained the right to vote.
"Montenegro people" don't include those living abroad or even those in Serbia (260k) when Montenegro was still part of Serbia & Montenegro, i.e. the same country with a seat at the UN?
I wasn't questioning the legality of the decision (CoE: 19.12.05) to not to allow these people to vote, and we can hypothesize as much as we want about what might have been, but they were simply not allowed to partake. The demand that one has to be resident in Montenegro for 24 months was considered to be excessive, not to mention that these following rules must be accepted:
- the authorities must provide objective information;
- the public media have to be neutral, in particular in news coverage;
- the authorities must not influence the outcome of the vote by excessive, one-sided campaigning;
- the use of public funds by the authorities for campaigning purposes must be restricted.[4]
***
Lest us not forget that Đukanović and co had originally proposed a 40% hurdle for independence being accepted and then 50%. It was at the EU's insistence that 55% was adopted, the referendum passing by 55.5%
Taking in to account the usual corruption and margins, it was still accepted despite the rampant corruption (offering bills to be paid in return for a yes vote as seen in the Bušković scandal), not to mention NGOs campaigning for independence illegally.
EC Observers refused a recount.
On a number of said aspects, the Commission states that there are no internationally accepted standards and thus can only give an 'opinion'.
On something so fundamental as a referendum on secession, it was deemed safer by the ruling clique simply to not allow a quarter of million of their own citizens to vote.
Here's the link for the CoE's Venice Commission "on the compatibility of the existing legislation in Montenegro concerning the organization of referendums with applicable international standards"
"Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? "
Hilarious.
Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
(Aleks, 7 December 2009 23:56)
You should read the Council of Europe's Venice Commission on this issue. The point is very simple: if you have registered your residence and thereby acquired your right to vote in one federal republic, you can not at the same time have the right to vote in the other. If there would be a referendum on independence for Scotland, Englishmen with residence and voting rights in Scotland can vote, not Scots that have chosen to acquire ditto in England.
As far as Montenegro is concerned, all polls conducted in Montenegro (including by Serbian pollsters) point to increasing support for independence since the referendum in 2006. If the referendum would have been held today, more than 60% would for sure have voted for independence. This is not an expression of being anti-Serb, just the recognition of reality that both Serbia and Montenegro are better off as brothers with the responsibility to keep their respective houses in order, than the endless bickering about who should control which parts of one house, a house on a foundation of sand...
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Here are some of the McKenzie disinformation and prediction for the future regarding the effects of Kosovo independence:
He said:” the attack on US embassy was the attack against M Albright.” Did he know that Albright was gone years ago and the US embassy is the representative of US government and US people. That is how he justifies the criminal acts of hooligans in Serbia.
He said: “Racak massacre was the stage event by KLA.” It is rare for and retired general to live in denial. The world watched the Racak massacre through facts on the ground while he pretends otherwise. Not different language from Serbian nationalists and radicals.
He said: “the consequences can be equal in China (Tibet), Russia (Chechnya), Spain(Basque region), India (Kashmir) and most ridiculous: Palestinians are already talking declaring themselves independent, in republic of Srpska they are meeting now in Banya Luka to declare independence from Bosnia, Kosovo will join greater Albania etc.”
So far none of those happened therefore all predictions of McKenzie were just bubble. These facts tell very clearly about the credibility of such “experts”. We don’t have any reasons to believe anymore what the lobbyists say.
IS AN ALBANIAN WORTH MORE THAN A TIBETAN?
(Ron, 8 December 2009 01:54)
Ron, based on your comment(s) you are trying to say this (below)!!!
Just because the Tibetan issue is not resolved (just because we cannot help Tibetans now) then all surprised nations must remain suppressed????
Ron,
Think of this from a different angle.
With the world accepting Kosovo the Tibetan cause is stronger and closer to the resolve than it was prior to Kosovo declaring independence.
Why do you think China is backing Serbia on ICJ?
“So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.”
Actually it was me who provided the facts that the number of Kosovo war victims was far bigger than the number offered by a Serbian poster here. The counter facts offered by the second poster were just opinions of an individual who can write what he wants. Therefore I don’t need to provide more facts about the truth presented by Jonathan Steele since there are thousand of biased articles worthless to be commented. The serious sources deserve facts to be countered; in the case being discussed you compare the Hague Tribunal which is much more reliable with the article of Jonathan Steele. If you don’t accept the Hague Tribunal for neutral then that it is your problem.
“Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.”
Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? To be sincere I don’t care for Nigerian or whatsoever and I don’t think they do for me. Therefore I don’t see any reason to be desperate at all while Jeremic & Co may continue to waste time with declarations which have no basis especially on the ground. The pro Kosovo arguments up to now have been so far excellent as the other coming. On contrary we are so happy that Serbia seeks for hope to China (Communists), Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Cyprus, Russia and so on. Sorry but everybody can see such “strong” position of Serbia. With such country the democracy lesson of Serbia borrowed from them can really consolidate its position. Good luck with them.
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Peggy(too)
I am really wondering that you repeat one and the same things over and over again from years. To be biased doesn’t necessary mean to be Serbian. The paid lobbyist can behave as such. You know very well what I mean. Against this people you mention there have been thousand of articles which contest them. Just watch it in YouTube the debate between McKenzie and ex Nato General W Clark. The ridiculous comparisons he made about Kosovo with Israel and other baseless statements make everybody sick. Why should one believe what McKenzie says and not Clark? The later was in charge during the war and knows the situation much better than McKenzie whose opinions are in the front of all Serbian propagandists websites. These people that you mentioned have been in one way or another related to Serbia or Yugo (like James Bisset ex ambassador in yugo)and probably are still.
The Kim response is the best and much more valuable than any of us who are biased in regard of our national background. I wish to see more and more such realistic opinion from outside and not from lobbyists repeating one and the same things since 10 years now.
This guy(Jeremic) I think deserves a place in teh Guiness Book of Records for his continues NON-sense.
(PRN, 7 December 2009 09:57)
Yes, indeed his non-sense has alreay brought the consultation at the ICJ, a complete halt of recognitions (free and "forced"), the visa liberalisation, the unblocking of the trade deal and certainly more to come...
A few months ago you and you peers were shouting that none of the above will happen in the next 10 years, so facts have proven that your are wrong... and now, what else do you have apart from continuously critizing the others for your limbo situation...., not much, or maybe something, working to improve it, but I guess this is neither part of your culture nor belongs to your vocabulary!!
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
(Allez, 7 December 2009 23:46)
--
Learn to read Allez. Under 3000 have been confirm whereas 11000 was an initial estimate that has been proved inaccurate by a UN investigation.
"The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US.."
So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.
The basic fact is that Serbia is no longer in such a weak position as it used to be. It is still not very good, but it could certainly be worse. The pendulum is swinging back against the West (mostly through its own incompetence) as we will particularly see after the next elections in the Ukraine.
There was an article a year or two ago in the Financial Times that quoted a business man with regards to albanian controlled Kosovo. He said if it is a question of markets, he would of course invest in Serbia with 8 million citizens...
Unfortunately the albanians in Kosovo refuse to recognize their weakening position and still assume unconditional support from the US/De/whomever. Time is running out...
Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 23:05)
How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.
Please don't tell me all these people have bad reputations for writing rubbish. I could post links to their articles if you wish. I have done this a few times already but will do it once more just for you.
"All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!"
Cheers// Kim from Sweden
(Kim, 7 December 2009 17:13)
Kim, you are so blinded by YOUR obvious dislike of Serbs that you claim anything written disputing Albanian claims must be written by Serbs and it has to be propaganda as well.
There are many reputable people who have written articles disputing Albanian and NATO claims who are not Serbs and in no way affiliated with Serbs. Ever stopped to think that Kate is getting her information from those sources as well and making an informed opinion? Guess not.
Here is a link from a non Serb.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger20.html
Try this link which is also written by a non Serb.
“I have the following report - Check [link] - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:”
I needed only few minutes to find out who is the author of the article regarding the victims of Kosovo war. Your copy paste extracts doesn’t turn the lies into truth at all. The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US and even Israel by supporting controversial ideas about the Iraqi war, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Palestine. His articles are used in many Serbian websites used as “information sources of illegal NATO war against Serbia”. Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
In 1989 you took away Autonomy as was clearly described by Croatia, you say the war was K-Albanians fault. 11K people are talked here as if they were inconvenience, and quick reply oh also XX amount of Serbs were killed too. When u have mas grave in your sentence and your try to defend it I am sorry for you.
People go to Jail for killing DOG's just an animal.
Have any of Serbian Bloggers here ever thought about how would they feel If they were K-Albanian and after all this they were told you have to live under same country that did kill 11,236 but it was your fault.
Stop looking it as inconvenience, and just because Tadic says we are looking or Vuk Discovers peaceful means in year 2009 does not make it ok and K-Albanins will go under Serbia.
I know Thaqi is a idiot, thief, all the things u want to name but he is no way close to what we had before 1999 and you know we have a choice to get rid of him.
Kosovo is not for sale hence no Negotiations.
Is Serbia owner of kosovo maybe long ago today no. I hope after this u look forward to better days if not life goes on Kosovo can exist without Serbia so can Serbia without Kosovo.
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
Straigh talk!
What does it mean "a compromise solution" according to Serbia?
Please DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH WORDS!
I am giving HARD FACTS.
What are the Serbian rhetorics towards Montenegro not to establish diplomatic relations with Kosova?
Is that a compromise approach?
By trying to undo Kosova's independence Serbia is REALLY annoying the Albanians in Kosova. THAT IS a true FACT. Is that approach an "approach to compromise". Anyone with a little bit of brain will be able to see the oposite.
Serbia is testing the Albanian intellegence when "suggesting a compromise solution" and of course it is all demagogy for internal and external consumption which the Albanians are used with.
Final thing, trust me there will be NEVER RETURN TO SERBIA.
A compromise solution to a reconsiliation between Albanians and Serbs would be Serbia not to waste time and energy in stopping the unstoppable, recognise Kosova's independence, enter friendship agreements with Kosova, free movement of goods and people, agreements to fight together crime and corruptions and together in EU. Anything else is a waste of time, money and energy.
Isn't it funny how at first the Albanians were desperately calling for the initiation of status talks, while Serbs were even against direct talks with Albanians, but now we have Serbs desperate for talks. Too little too late I say.
Better a state with 63 recognitions than a province living in fear under Serbia's boot.
With so many long winded comments, it's actually boring to read as the repetitive he said she said accusations keep pilling up.
I think the key word for all is COMPROMISE. Serbia understand that the Kosovo Albanians should rule themselves as should Kosovo Serbs. Let's find that COMPROMISE in good faith and move forward together as neighbors of good will.
We all deserve a second chance to right our mistakes.
It seems that the number of victims is much closer to 12000 than to 5000 as you like it.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 18:09)
--
Umm, no, that was an initial estimate for deaths on all sides and not just Albanians so your figures are highly exaggerated and imagninative as usual. You see, it also estimated deaths caused by NATO and the KLA.
I have the following report - Check http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/aug/18/balkans3 - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:
"When the tribunal's teams reached Kosovo last summer, shortly after the international peacekeepers, they were given reports of 11,334 people in mass graves, but the results of its exhumations fall well short of that number. In a few cases, such as the Trepca mine where hundreds of bodies were alleged to have been flung down shafts or incinerated, they found nothing at all.
The exhumation of less than 3,000 bodies is sure to add fuel to those who say Nato's intervention against Yugoslavia was not "humanitarian" and that it had other motives such as maintaining its credibility in a post-cold war world.
But officials will not say how many of the 2,788 bodies exhumed show clear signs of being victims of summary execution such as being shot in the head from close range.
No Nato government has sought to produce a definitive total of murdered ethnic Albanian civilians since the Serb offensives began in March 1998, a year before the bombing. "No one is interested," complained a senior international official in Kosovo involved in helping victims' families. "Nato doesn't want to admit the damage wasn't as extensive as it said. Local Albanian politicians have the same motive. If you don't have the true figure, you can exploit the issue."
“Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?”
Again you proved very obviously what I said before. Your opinions based on “what has been said” are quite nonsense. Who are the unbiased sources which calculate the number of Kosovo victims in 5000??? Even one life if precious but lets play with numbers. Here is the citation of Hague tribunal about the victims just some months after the war:
“In a briefing to the Security Council on 10 November 1999, the newly appointed Chief Prosecutor for the Tribunal, Carla del Ponte, reported that after five months of investigation by forensic specialists from 14 countries, the Tribunal has received reports of 11,334 bodies in 529 gravesites, including sites where bodies were found exposed………
On 22 May 1999, the ICTY issued its most significant indictment thus far, when it charged a sitting head of State and several other high-level officials of the governments of the FRY and Serbia with war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conflict in Kosovo. By the date of the indictment, it was reported that approximately 740,000 Kosovo Albanians, that is about one-third of the entire Kosovo Albanian population, had been expelled from Kosovo”
Radoslav please let me know were do you read the news from.If US alone stops produsing everything right now it will take Russia and China together more than 30 years to come to were US is NOW.Get some real news from google and dont search Komunist propaganda.
China is as good as the US that buys its products.
Russia is as good as the oil and gas it makes. In 15 years it will be about 85 Dollars per barrel to produce oil coming from the Russian steppes so really no money to made from Russia.
I have been reading the comments here in B92 for a long time now without making one single comment.
Today i saw one off your posts who really gave me the will too get involved.
You made a comment too Ian about his support for Kosovo and claim that he is doing this with no basis and only with propaganda from the albanian side.
Yet you your self do exactly the same comment purely on the serbian propaganda. examples follows.
The only ones who claim that Kosovos declaration was not in accordance with International law is the around 20 countrys so far.
And most off the rest are undecided on how they should react, and yet you claim here that they support Serbias claim.
Example 2. You claim that in Kosovo there was under 5000 victims, the only ones claiming that is the Serbians!
You totaly disregard the fact that every single UN or EU made counts take that number too above 12000 dead.
All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!
'He added that the negotiations between Belgrade and Priština fell through in December 2007 because the participating parties "stated in advance what must the outcome of the [negotiating] process". '
The "Group Ten Guiding Principles for Ahtisaari" said that “Kosovo [will] not return to the pre-March 1999 situation”. (Written statement by France, p. 37). This could have been autonomy, federation, ... almost anything except the imposition of military rule by Serbia over Kosovo.
One slight difference between economical crisis/boom in Russia and the one in EU/USA:
Economical crisis in EU/USA means that people cannot afford to change their car every year or buy a new 52 inch LCD TV every 6 months.
Economical crisis in Russia/China means there is famine.
Booming economy in Russia means that the state can feed the population.
Luxury is not in the agenda.
"FM expects new Kosovo status talks" totally unrealistic, and negotiate about what? About giving Kosovo to Serbia? Come on dude, you know it is not going to happen, as a matter of fact Kosovo can be negotiated when Serbia starts accesion talks with the EU, and I guarantee Serbia will be against those negotiations about Kosovo.
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 15:38)
There is a big differance between Palestine and Kosovo.
Israel is no Serbia, and there is no control of Kosovo from Serbia the way Israel controls Palestine.
Serbia cant Even bring its Air force 25KM near Kosovo. Palestine can dream of achieving what Kosovo has today on its table. Just to have Mobile phone they need bandwith approved from Israel. Sorry Zoran, K-Alb dont want negotiation where on the other hand Palestinians are begging and waiting at same time Israel increases settlements.
Kosovo does not need to be in FIFA UEFA UN now in time yes but today no need.
More recognitions will come from people that want to, only 25 countries that can invest we can have strong relations for now lets develop Economy. IMF EBRD, EU still wants to work with Kosovo we are fine. This is VUK wishful thinking.
Serbia does not want to accept fine so be it, we will continue to progress even if they are small steps, if it looks small for Sebia fine we dont mind as long as K-Albanins are happy and if someone is not they can always move where they belive is better. But stop demanding you are no longer in possition to do so.
UNE - "Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and........"
UNE, go find a friend who is proficient in economics and ask him who is a better position financially, Russia + China or the EU + US.
If Russia is in financial dire straits then the EU and US must be bankrupt. Russia is in a MUCH BETTER financial position then either the EU or US.
And as for China stopping growing!!!! Did you even study basic kindergarten economics in school? China will not only be growing in 10 years, 20 years or 50 years from now, it'll be growing faster than either the EU or US.
So do everyone a favour. Don't try to pretend there are articles in the WSJ that claim this "fact" because we all know it's BS, especially those of us who live in the West. You could just about top this off by saying that they've found general Mladic hiding in Serbia with his accomplices, Hitler and Stalin, and they were being harboured by Jesus Christ. Your previous comment makes about as much sense!!
'Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried'
I had to laugh when I saw this. Has UDE forgotten that it was mainly the influence of the UK which returned Kosovo to Serbia in the first place? So much for Kosovo allies never changing policy.
I was expecting to win lottery this week, but hey that didn’t materialise.
Bummer.
Maybe we’ll have more luck next week Vuk (or the week after……… after….. or the week after………-- how long can a comment bee for me to continue the “or the week after………” sentence).
I guess the solution would be:
- I finally put/write the right numbers in the lottery ticket
- You finally stop putting your wishful thinking as given.
I can assure Mr. Vuk (Mr. Wolf – you see we have a “snake” and you have a “wolf”) you that there will be no more status discussions, ever.
Marinels. I can't seriously respond to anyone who is still touting the 12,000 figure, or rehashing the usual pro Blair era supercilious blurb from The Guardian or wherever.
Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?
Or perhaps that justice is found for the thousands of innocent people maimed, killed or made homeless by the attack in 1999?
It is interesting that you see my perspective as being Serbian nationalist, when I am neither of those things. But if you had truly followed my comments you would know that.
Never mind, I am sure that Ian UK loves you for defending his right to be on the same Western media bandwagon as yourself (although passengers are getting notably light, thank goodness).
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
Zoran, a "international black hole (which is btw. extremely far away considering the fact that almost the whole West has recognized Kosovo) is still 1000 times more preferable than a Serbian hellhole.
I have always read carefully your comments but to be sincere I never replied to them because of the old stuff that they contained. You have provided actually only your opinions which are heavily affected by Serbian propaganda but never real facts and arguments. Let me analyze some of them at least for this topic.
“Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.”
One again you are sure but where is based your argument? The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia and as everybody knows that was finally decided by Albanians in there. So dignity for Montenegro means to respect Albanians who will be always attached to Montenegro history independence. No matter who comes in power, the facts are facts and remains so through history. Opinions change frequently especially among Serbian people (with very fast rate) as far as I know them.
“I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.”
Everybody knows that Jeremic wants do delay recognitions. I wouldn’t say stop since it is not upon Jeremic to decide who recognizes Kosovo. The question here is how realistic is such attempt by knowing that more than 90 % of Kosovo population supports UDI!!! The Albanians over there had 100 years to think about it and only 10 years to remember why UDI was the only realistic solution. Moreover there are the most democratic countries in the world who have already stated that the negotiation table is not an option anymore.
“This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.”
You still mean peace and stability as pictured by Serbian side!!!! Sorry but there are many countries who think very differently. We Albanians don’t need lessons from China, India or Russia to understand what brings more peace and stability. First they are too far away and second they are absolutely no good models to be taken for peace and stability. The “false promising” such USA, UK, France, Japan, Germany etc. know better what peace and stability means and how to achieve them.
“Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.”
So you mean under Serbian control they wouldn’t be freezing but they would have been supplied free gas from Gazprom or what!!!! This pathetic statement is not needed at all. The last time I went to Kosovo from the border along the way to the capital I didn’t see any sign of Serbian state. 10 years ago I couldn’t take such trip which means that many things have changed on the ground since then. As a result I doubt very much that Kosovo in reality still remain legally part of Serbia.
“Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.”
What has to do this comment with the topic being discussed? Absolutely nothing, moreover when I see your comments they are 100 times biased than of lan UK. You are English too and I doubt that u have ever met any Albanian in you life except of being mainly influenced by Serbian propaganda.
“You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.”
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
it´s quite obvious that you simply do not understand it at all...
the reason why we won´t let the greater-albanians get away with our territory is - the same one that made us resist several centuries of ottoman occupation without converting to islam or even take over their oriental habits and culture.
don´t worry Serbia will prevail and everything will be fine ( not only because it is in line with international law )
but one thing should be clear to you, my dear - we will not let you go with our serbian soil.
if you want to leave, you´re free to do so, but if not, you will have to accept the inevitable.
if you sit somewhere in down-town Pristina in some internet-cafe,just take a look everywhere around you and remember - "this is Serbia".
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
(ozymandias, 7 December 2009 13:12)
--
ozy, Kosovo Albanians constitute about 20% of their country's population, not 90%. They occupy about 10% of the territory but want 15%. 80% of the population are strongly opposed to it.
UNE - can't any of you albo's read? which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Do you think that policies dont change. You count on support from countries that change their policies depending on shich govement is in power. As far as Russia wait a few more years. Putin wont be around forever. Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and I dont think theyw ill get it with Putin in power. Soon there will be a new wave in Russia that changes all icluding foreign policy.
US and Engalnd and France and germany never have theyb changed foreign policy. No matter what goverment no matter what party. China in about 10 years will stop growing and be ailing actually i think that has started read WSJ and you will see what I am talking about.
Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 14:04)
12000 murdered now? Please use some of these facts you ask for and do not give me the same tired and biased stats from recipients of the Albanian lobby.
ozymandias - It must be a Balkan thing, Serbia's stubborness is matched by Pristina's continued persistent claims that it will not allow the Serbs in northern Kosovo to be a part of Serbia. Both sides are pig headed!
Ian, UK - you couldn't be further from the truth. If the ICJ rules emphatically in Serbia's favour that will be the final nail in the coffin for kosovo. Either they'll decide to stay isolated or they'll start negotiating with Belgrade. They'll simply have no other choice. If the ICJ reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo then there is no way ANYBODY will invest in Kosovo. It'll be an economic black hole. The US might throw a few scraps in Kosovo's direction so that it can keep it's bases there but Kosovo (like the rest of the Balkans) needs massive investment. Investors will only plough money into Kosovo if they can get some kind of return and that'll revolve around Trepca and any other resources in Kosovo because there simply is no other industry in Kosovo of any merit apart from agriculture. No-one will touch trepca with a barge pole knowing that Serbia will sue the pants off them, so it could end up being a stalemate. Kosovo with nowhere to go and Serbia not being allowed by NATO to control it's territory - Kosovo. Who do you think will blink first? A province that no investor will touch or the largest country in the balkans which can freely trade with anyone!
UNE - which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Kate - because it's much easier for Ian to dream than to face reality. I constantly dream that I'm a multi billionaire living on some beautiful tropical island. Unfortunately, my reality nowhere near matches my dream!!
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
(kate, 7 December 2009 12:25)
--
Thank you Kate for stating the obvious.
I have heard many ethnic Albanians here claim that they would rather starve to death than to negotiate or compromise with Serbia.
It's easy for them to say when they live in the US or Europe and have food on the table plus heating in their homes.
What about the people of Kosovo? Ethnic Albanians were being murdered by their own if they remained loyal to Serbia. The whole separatist movement is based on crime, murder, aggression and illegal activity. Their leaders also remain warm and well fed while the provincial population continues to suffer.
Serbia is not going to reward ethnic cleansers, murderers, war mongers and criminals. We are open to negotiations and a fair compromise. It's fairly simple.
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
What we want to do is to make sure there are no new recognitions of Kosovo after the ICJ case ends, and to not allow Kosovo to join any international organizations in which members must be sovereign countries. If we are successful, it will become obvious that there is no alternative but to restore dialogue,” Jeremić told Belgrade daily Blic
He is right! If he lived in some other planet and he nwas king of the world.
Next when the ICJ opinion comes in than a wave of recognitions will come that will take us to required level for UN membership. In 5 years things will change and there will be a new member of the UN0-KOSOVO.JEREMIC is doing a good job he is just making sure that recognitions come in as a wave and not one by one.
Ian UK: "Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side."
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.
You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.
We really have cornered our ethnic Albanian seperatists. They have a choice of remaining in the black hole that Kosovo is and maintaining the status quo, which means no future for the province - or they can come back to the negotiating table.
If they are forced to negotiate then it really means their one and only chance at independence has failed.
That is the dilema they face. Do they want a prosperous future or do they want to stick with their Illyrian past and go nowhere?
Although Kosovo Albanians may make up 90% of the provincial population, they only control about 65% of the territory and a lot of that is through ethnic cleansing. Those citizens living in 35% of Kosovo's territory are loyal to Serbia and that includes the Gorani's, Serbians and other non-Albanians.
Independence is irreversibly blocked at every corner, so there is only one path to prosperity and that is through negotiations.
Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side.
Miles: "On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair."
Yes, and I know where I would like to stick that carrot; the same place from which he spewed all his warmongering ego-driven evangelistic spin which has cost so many lives while he swans around with his pretensions to the European throne.
Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.
I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.
This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.
I have never seen an FM of any country doing so much flip-flopping on daily bases, like Mr. Jeremic does.
I just don't understand Serbian people,how they can stay indiferent with regard to FM job performances.
I don't understand, why do Serbian people still have the will and streght to deal with Kosovo. Didn't they have enough?! I am so suprised by the fact that they are so stuck in the past, instead of looking towards the future. I can't help being constantly amazed with you guys, not only the government but the whole people. Kosovo has 90% Albaninas who don't want to be part of Serbia, why don't you let them be?!
“unilateral change of borders of a peaceful, democratic, internationally recognized state against the will of the UN Security Council is acceptable.”
when the hell did Serbia get peaceful and democratic? since 1850 Serbia have been in war with its neighbors. Good God do Jeremic really think that the new generation of Serbs will bilive his words instead of reading history. Because I am 100% sure that what Jeremic is saying day in and out have nothing to do with convincing others than young serbs that they country leaders are not coldblooded murders but they were saints and the hole world is against Serbia.
wait i am confused ... 1st he says that montenegro will revoke its recognition then he says that montenegro will open an office in kosova?
what - am i confused or what? what a joke. serbia has yet to apologize for the crimes done against the albanians and also its own people in serbia .... and it knows very well that no albanian will ever be under the rule of serbia. lets live as neighbors.
Good stuff. Jeremic should also add that the Montenegrin cigarette boys aren't going to be around forever and Serbia knows that relations between Serbia and Montenegro will return to normal.
On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair.
wait i am confused ... 1st he says that montenegro will revoke its recognition then he says that montenegro will open an office in kosova?
what - am i confused or what? what a joke. serbia has yet to apologize for the crimes done against the albanians and also its own people in serbia .... and it knows very well that no albanian will ever be under the rule of serbia. lets live as neighbors.
“unilateral change of borders of a peaceful, democratic, internationally recognized state against the will of the UN Security Council is acceptable.”
when the hell did Serbia get peaceful and democratic? since 1850 Serbia have been in war with its neighbors. Good God do Jeremic really think that the new generation of Serbs will bilive his words instead of reading history. Because I am 100% sure that what Jeremic is saying day in and out have nothing to do with convincing others than young serbs that they country leaders are not coldblooded murders but they were saints and the hole world is against Serbia.
Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side.
I don't understand, why do Serbian people still have the will and streght to deal with Kosovo. Didn't they have enough?! I am so suprised by the fact that they are so stuck in the past, instead of looking towards the future. I can't help being constantly amazed with you guys, not only the government but the whole people. Kosovo has 90% Albaninas who don't want to be part of Serbia, why don't you let them be?!
I have never seen an FM of any country doing so much flip-flopping on daily bases, like Mr. Jeremic does.
I just don't understand Serbian people,how they can stay indiferent with regard to FM job performances.
What we want to do is to make sure there are no new recognitions of Kosovo after the ICJ case ends, and to not allow Kosovo to join any international organizations in which members must be sovereign countries. If we are successful, it will become obvious that there is no alternative but to restore dialogue,” Jeremić told Belgrade daily Blic
He is right! If he lived in some other planet and he nwas king of the world.
Next when the ICJ opinion comes in than a wave of recognitions will come that will take us to required level for UN membership. In 5 years things will change and there will be a new member of the UN0-KOSOVO.JEREMIC is doing a good job he is just making sure that recognitions come in as a wave and not one by one.
Zoran, a "international black hole (which is btw. extremely far away considering the fact that almost the whole West has recognized Kosovo) is still 1000 times more preferable than a Serbian hellhole.
Ian UK: "Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side."
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.
You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.
I have always read carefully your comments but to be sincere I never replied to them because of the old stuff that they contained. You have provided actually only your opinions which are heavily affected by Serbian propaganda but never real facts and arguments. Let me analyze some of them at least for this topic.
“Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.”
One again you are sure but where is based your argument? The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia and as everybody knows that was finally decided by Albanians in there. So dignity for Montenegro means to respect Albanians who will be always attached to Montenegro history independence. No matter who comes in power, the facts are facts and remains so through history. Opinions change frequently especially among Serbian people (with very fast rate) as far as I know them.
“I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.”
Everybody knows that Jeremic wants do delay recognitions. I wouldn’t say stop since it is not upon Jeremic to decide who recognizes Kosovo. The question here is how realistic is such attempt by knowing that more than 90 % of Kosovo population supports UDI!!! The Albanians over there had 100 years to think about it and only 10 years to remember why UDI was the only realistic solution. Moreover there are the most democratic countries in the world who have already stated that the negotiation table is not an option anymore.
“This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.”
You still mean peace and stability as pictured by Serbian side!!!! Sorry but there are many countries who think very differently. We Albanians don’t need lessons from China, India or Russia to understand what brings more peace and stability. First they are too far away and second they are absolutely no good models to be taken for peace and stability. The “false promising” such USA, UK, France, Japan, Germany etc. know better what peace and stability means and how to achieve them.
“Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.”
So you mean under Serbian control they wouldn’t be freezing but they would have been supplied free gas from Gazprom or what!!!! This pathetic statement is not needed at all. The last time I went to Kosovo from the border along the way to the capital I didn’t see any sign of Serbian state. 10 years ago I couldn’t take such trip which means that many things have changed on the ground since then. As a result I doubt very much that Kosovo in reality still remain legally part of Serbia.
“Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.”
What has to do this comment with the topic being discussed? Absolutely nothing, moreover when I see your comments they are 100 times biased than of lan UK. You are English too and I doubt that u have ever met any Albanian in you life except of being mainly influenced by Serbian propaganda.
“You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.”
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
Miles: "On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair."
Yes, and I know where I would like to stick that carrot; the same place from which he spewed all his warmongering ego-driven evangelistic spin which has cost so many lives while he swans around with his pretensions to the European throne.
Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.
I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.
This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.
We really have cornered our ethnic Albanian seperatists. They have a choice of remaining in the black hole that Kosovo is and maintaining the status quo, which means no future for the province - or they can come back to the negotiating table.
If they are forced to negotiate then it really means their one and only chance at independence has failed.
That is the dilema they face. Do they want a prosperous future or do they want to stick with their Illyrian past and go nowhere?
Although Kosovo Albanians may make up 90% of the provincial population, they only control about 65% of the territory and a lot of that is through ethnic cleansing. Those citizens living in 35% of Kosovo's territory are loyal to Serbia and that includes the Gorani's, Serbians and other non-Albanians.
Independence is irreversibly blocked at every corner, so there is only one path to prosperity and that is through negotiations.
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
(kate, 7 December 2009 12:25)
--
Thank you Kate for stating the obvious.
I have heard many ethnic Albanians here claim that they would rather starve to death than to negotiate or compromise with Serbia.
It's easy for them to say when they live in the US or Europe and have food on the table plus heating in their homes.
What about the people of Kosovo? Ethnic Albanians were being murdered by their own if they remained loyal to Serbia. The whole separatist movement is based on crime, murder, aggression and illegal activity. Their leaders also remain warm and well fed while the provincial population continues to suffer.
Serbia is not going to reward ethnic cleansers, murderers, war mongers and criminals. We are open to negotiations and a fair compromise. It's fairly simple.
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
(ozymandias, 7 December 2009 13:12)
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ozy, Kosovo Albanians constitute about 20% of their country's population, not 90%. They occupy about 10% of the territory but want 15%. 80% of the population are strongly opposed to it.
Straigh talk!
What does it mean "a compromise solution" according to Serbia?
Please DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH WORDS!
I am giving HARD FACTS.
What are the Serbian rhetorics towards Montenegro not to establish diplomatic relations with Kosova?
Is that a compromise approach?
By trying to undo Kosova's independence Serbia is REALLY annoying the Albanians in Kosova. THAT IS a true FACT. Is that approach an "approach to compromise". Anyone with a little bit of brain will be able to see the oposite.
Serbia is testing the Albanian intellegence when "suggesting a compromise solution" and of course it is all demagogy for internal and external consumption which the Albanians are used with.
Final thing, trust me there will be NEVER RETURN TO SERBIA.
A compromise solution to a reconsiliation between Albanians and Serbs would be Serbia not to waste time and energy in stopping the unstoppable, recognise Kosova's independence, enter friendship agreements with Kosova, free movement of goods and people, agreements to fight together crime and corruptions and together in EU. Anything else is a waste of time, money and energy.
Isn't it funny how at first the Albanians were desperately calling for the initiation of status talks, while Serbs were even against direct talks with Albanians, but now we have Serbs desperate for talks. Too little too late I say.
Better a state with 63 recognitions than a province living in fear under Serbia's boot.
Good stuff. Jeremic should also add that the Montenegrin cigarette boys aren't going to be around forever and Serbia knows that relations between Serbia and Montenegro will return to normal.
On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair.
ozymandias - It must be a Balkan thing, Serbia's stubborness is matched by Pristina's continued persistent claims that it will not allow the Serbs in northern Kosovo to be a part of Serbia. Both sides are pig headed!
Ian, UK - you couldn't be further from the truth. If the ICJ rules emphatically in Serbia's favour that will be the final nail in the coffin for kosovo. Either they'll decide to stay isolated or they'll start negotiating with Belgrade. They'll simply have no other choice. If the ICJ reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo then there is no way ANYBODY will invest in Kosovo. It'll be an economic black hole. The US might throw a few scraps in Kosovo's direction so that it can keep it's bases there but Kosovo (like the rest of the Balkans) needs massive investment. Investors will only plough money into Kosovo if they can get some kind of return and that'll revolve around Trepca and any other resources in Kosovo because there simply is no other industry in Kosovo of any merit apart from agriculture. No-one will touch trepca with a barge pole knowing that Serbia will sue the pants off them, so it could end up being a stalemate. Kosovo with nowhere to go and Serbia not being allowed by NATO to control it's territory - Kosovo. Who do you think will blink first? A province that no investor will touch or the largest country in the balkans which can freely trade with anyone!
UNE - which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Kate - because it's much easier for Ian to dream than to face reality. I constantly dream that I'm a multi billionaire living on some beautiful tropical island. Unfortunately, my reality nowhere near matches my dream!!
I have been reading the comments here in B92 for a long time now without making one single comment.
Today i saw one off your posts who really gave me the will too get involved.
You made a comment too Ian about his support for Kosovo and claim that he is doing this with no basis and only with propaganda from the albanian side.
Yet you your self do exactly the same comment purely on the serbian propaganda. examples follows.
The only ones who claim that Kosovos declaration was not in accordance with International law is the around 20 countrys so far.
And most off the rest are undecided on how they should react, and yet you claim here that they support Serbias claim.
Example 2. You claim that in Kosovo there was under 5000 victims, the only ones claiming that is the Serbians!
You totaly disregard the fact that every single UN or EU made counts take that number too above 12000 dead.
All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!
it´s quite obvious that you simply do not understand it at all...
the reason why we won´t let the greater-albanians get away with our territory is - the same one that made us resist several centuries of ottoman occupation without converting to islam or even take over their oriental habits and culture.
don´t worry Serbia will prevail and everything will be fine ( not only because it is in line with international law )
but one thing should be clear to you, my dear - we will not let you go with our serbian soil.
if you want to leave, you´re free to do so, but if not, you will have to accept the inevitable.
if you sit somewhere in down-town Pristina in some internet-cafe,just take a look everywhere around you and remember - "this is Serbia".
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 14:04)
12000 murdered now? Please use some of these facts you ask for and do not give me the same tired and biased stats from recipients of the Albanian lobby.
Marinels. I can't seriously respond to anyone who is still touting the 12,000 figure, or rehashing the usual pro Blair era supercilious blurb from The Guardian or wherever.
Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?
Or perhaps that justice is found for the thousands of innocent people maimed, killed or made homeless by the attack in 1999?
It is interesting that you see my perspective as being Serbian nationalist, when I am neither of those things. But if you had truly followed my comments you would know that.
Never mind, I am sure that Ian UK loves you for defending his right to be on the same Western media bandwagon as yourself (although passengers are getting notably light, thank goodness).
“Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?”
Again you proved very obviously what I said before. Your opinions based on “what has been said” are quite nonsense. Who are the unbiased sources which calculate the number of Kosovo victims in 5000??? Even one life if precious but lets play with numbers. Here is the citation of Hague tribunal about the victims just some months after the war:
“In a briefing to the Security Council on 10 November 1999, the newly appointed Chief Prosecutor for the Tribunal, Carla del Ponte, reported that after five months of investigation by forensic specialists from 14 countries, the Tribunal has received reports of 11,334 bodies in 529 gravesites, including sites where bodies were found exposed………
On 22 May 1999, the ICTY issued its most significant indictment thus far, when it charged a sitting head of State and several other high-level officials of the governments of the FRY and Serbia with war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conflict in Kosovo. By the date of the indictment, it was reported that approximately 740,000 Kosovo Albanians, that is about one-third of the entire Kosovo Albanian population, had been expelled from Kosovo”
UNE - "Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and........"
UNE, go find a friend who is proficient in economics and ask him who is a better position financially, Russia + China or the EU + US.
If Russia is in financial dire straits then the EU and US must be bankrupt. Russia is in a MUCH BETTER financial position then either the EU or US.
And as for China stopping growing!!!! Did you even study basic kindergarten economics in school? China will not only be growing in 10 years, 20 years or 50 years from now, it'll be growing faster than either the EU or US.
So do everyone a favour. Don't try to pretend there are articles in the WSJ that claim this "fact" because we all know it's BS, especially those of us who live in the West. You could just about top this off by saying that they've found general Mladic hiding in Serbia with his accomplices, Hitler and Stalin, and they were being harboured by Jesus Christ. Your previous comment makes about as much sense!!
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
'Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried'
I had to laugh when I saw this. Has UDE forgotten that it was mainly the influence of the UK which returned Kosovo to Serbia in the first place? So much for Kosovo allies never changing policy.
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
In 1989 you took away Autonomy as was clearly described by Croatia, you say the war was K-Albanians fault. 11K people are talked here as if they were inconvenience, and quick reply oh also XX amount of Serbs were killed too. When u have mas grave in your sentence and your try to defend it I am sorry for you.
People go to Jail for killing DOG's just an animal.
Have any of Serbian Bloggers here ever thought about how would they feel If they were K-Albanian and after all this they were told you have to live under same country that did kill 11,236 but it was your fault.
Stop looking it as inconvenience, and just because Tadic says we are looking or Vuk Discovers peaceful means in year 2009 does not make it ok and K-Albanins will go under Serbia.
I know Thaqi is a idiot, thief, all the things u want to name but he is no way close to what we had before 1999 and you know we have a choice to get rid of him.
Kosovo is not for sale hence no Negotiations.
Is Serbia owner of kosovo maybe long ago today no. I hope after this u look forward to better days if not life goes on Kosovo can exist without Serbia so can Serbia without Kosovo.
I was expecting to win lottery this week, but hey that didn’t materialise.
Bummer.
Maybe we’ll have more luck next week Vuk (or the week after……… after….. or the week after………-- how long can a comment bee for me to continue the “or the week after………” sentence).
I guess the solution would be:
- I finally put/write the right numbers in the lottery ticket
- You finally stop putting your wishful thinking as given.
I can assure Mr. Vuk (Mr. Wolf – you see we have a “snake” and you have a “wolf”) you that there will be no more status discussions, ever.
One slight difference between economical crisis/boom in Russia and the one in EU/USA:
Economical crisis in EU/USA means that people cannot afford to change their car every year or buy a new 52 inch LCD TV every 6 months.
Economical crisis in Russia/China means there is famine.
Booming economy in Russia means that the state can feed the population.
Luxury is not in the agenda.
Radoslav please let me know were do you read the news from.If US alone stops produsing everything right now it will take Russia and China together more than 30 years to come to were US is NOW.Get some real news from google and dont search Komunist propaganda.
UNE - can't any of you albo's read? which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Do you think that policies dont change. You count on support from countries that change their policies depending on shich govement is in power. As far as Russia wait a few more years. Putin wont be around forever. Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and I dont think theyw ill get it with Putin in power. Soon there will be a new wave in Russia that changes all icluding foreign policy.
US and Engalnd and France and germany never have theyb changed foreign policy. No matter what goverment no matter what party. China in about 10 years will stop growing and be ailing actually i think that has started read WSJ and you will see what I am talking about.
Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried
It seems that the number of victims is much closer to 12000 than to 5000 as you like it.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 18:09)
--
Umm, no, that was an initial estimate for deaths on all sides and not just Albanians so your figures are highly exaggerated and imagninative as usual. You see, it also estimated deaths caused by NATO and the KLA.
I have the following report - Check http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/aug/18/balkans3 - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:
"When the tribunal's teams reached Kosovo last summer, shortly after the international peacekeepers, they were given reports of 11,334 people in mass graves, but the results of its exhumations fall well short of that number. In a few cases, such as the Trepca mine where hundreds of bodies were alleged to have been flung down shafts or incinerated, they found nothing at all.
The exhumation of less than 3,000 bodies is sure to add fuel to those who say Nato's intervention against Yugoslavia was not "humanitarian" and that it had other motives such as maintaining its credibility in a post-cold war world.
But officials will not say how many of the 2,788 bodies exhumed show clear signs of being victims of summary execution such as being shot in the head from close range.
No Nato government has sought to produce a definitive total of murdered ethnic Albanian civilians since the Serb offensives began in March 1998, a year before the bombing. "No one is interested," complained a senior international official in Kosovo involved in helping victims' families. "Nato doesn't want to admit the damage wasn't as extensive as it said. Local Albanian politicians have the same motive. If you don't have the true figure, you can exploit the issue."
China is as good as the US that buys its products.
Russia is as good as the oil and gas it makes. In 15 years it will be about 85 Dollars per barrel to produce oil coming from the Russian steppes so really no money to made from Russia.
“I have the following report - Check [link] - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:”
I needed only few minutes to find out who is the author of the article regarding the victims of Kosovo war. Your copy paste extracts doesn’t turn the lies into truth at all. The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US and even Israel by supporting controversial ideas about the Iraqi war, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Palestine. His articles are used in many Serbian websites used as “information sources of illegal NATO war against Serbia”. Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
"FM expects new Kosovo status talks" totally unrealistic, and negotiate about what? About giving Kosovo to Serbia? Come on dude, you know it is not going to happen, as a matter of fact Kosovo can be negotiated when Serbia starts accesion talks with the EU, and I guarantee Serbia will be against those negotiations about Kosovo.
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 15:38)
There is a big differance between Palestine and Kosovo.
Israel is no Serbia, and there is no control of Kosovo from Serbia the way Israel controls Palestine.
Serbia cant Even bring its Air force 25KM near Kosovo. Palestine can dream of achieving what Kosovo has today on its table. Just to have Mobile phone they need bandwith approved from Israel. Sorry Zoran, K-Alb dont want negotiation where on the other hand Palestinians are begging and waiting at same time Israel increases settlements.
Kosovo does not need to be in FIFA UEFA UN now in time yes but today no need.
More recognitions will come from people that want to, only 25 countries that can invest we can have strong relations for now lets develop Economy. IMF EBRD, EU still wants to work with Kosovo we are fine. This is VUK wishful thinking.
Serbia does not want to accept fine so be it, we will continue to progress even if they are small steps, if it looks small for Sebia fine we dont mind as long as K-Albanins are happy and if someone is not they can always move where they belive is better. But stop demanding you are no longer in possition to do so.
'He added that the negotiations between Belgrade and Priština fell through in December 2007 because the participating parties "stated in advance what must the outcome of the [negotiating] process". '
The "Group Ten Guiding Principles for Ahtisaari" said that “Kosovo [will] not return to the pre-March 1999 situation”. (Written statement by France, p. 37). This could have been autonomy, federation, ... almost anything except the imposition of military rule by Serbia over Kosovo.
With so many long winded comments, it's actually boring to read as the repetitive he said she said accusations keep pilling up.
I think the key word for all is COMPROMISE. Serbia understand that the Kosovo Albanians should rule themselves as should Kosovo Serbs. Let's find that COMPROMISE in good faith and move forward together as neighbors of good will.
We all deserve a second chance to right our mistakes.
This guy(Jeremic) I think deserves a place in teh Guiness Book of Records for his continues NON-sense.
(PRN, 7 December 2009 09:57)
Yes, indeed his non-sense has alreay brought the consultation at the ICJ, a complete halt of recognitions (free and "forced"), the visa liberalisation, the unblocking of the trade deal and certainly more to come...
A few months ago you and you peers were shouting that none of the above will happen in the next 10 years, so facts have proven that your are wrong... and now, what else do you have apart from continuously critizing the others for your limbo situation...., not much, or maybe something, working to improve it, but I guess this is neither part of your culture nor belongs to your vocabulary!!
IS AN ALBANIAN WORTH MORE THAN A TIBETAN?
(Ron, 8 December 2009 01:54)
Ron, based on your comment(s) you are trying to say this (below)!!!
Just because the Tibetan issue is not resolved (just because we cannot help Tibetans now) then all surprised nations must remain suppressed????
Ron,
Think of this from a different angle.
With the world accepting Kosovo the Tibetan cause is stronger and closer to the resolve than it was prior to Kosovo declaring independence.
Why do you think China is backing Serbia on ICJ?
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
(Aleks, 7 December 2009 23:56)
You should read the Council of Europe's Venice Commission on this issue. The point is very simple: if you have registered your residence and thereby acquired your right to vote in one federal republic, you can not at the same time have the right to vote in the other. If there would be a referendum on independence for Scotland, Englishmen with residence and voting rights in Scotland can vote, not Scots that have chosen to acquire ditto in England.
As far as Montenegro is concerned, all polls conducted in Montenegro (including by Serbian pollsters) point to increasing support for independence since the referendum in 2006. If the referendum would have been held today, more than 60% would for sure have voted for independence. This is not an expression of being anti-Serb, just the recognition of reality that both Serbia and Montenegro are better off as brothers with the responsibility to keep their respective houses in order, than the endless bickering about who should control which parts of one house, a house on a foundation of sand...
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Here are some of the McKenzie disinformation and prediction for the future regarding the effects of Kosovo independence:
He said:” the attack on US embassy was the attack against M Albright.” Did he know that Albright was gone years ago and the US embassy is the representative of US government and US people. That is how he justifies the criminal acts of hooligans in Serbia.
He said: “Racak massacre was the stage event by KLA.” It is rare for and retired general to live in denial. The world watched the Racak massacre through facts on the ground while he pretends otherwise. Not different language from Serbian nationalists and radicals.
He said: “the consequences can be equal in China (Tibet), Russia (Chechnya), Spain(Basque region), India (Kashmir) and most ridiculous: Palestinians are already talking declaring themselves independent, in republic of Srpska they are meeting now in Banya Luka to declare independence from Bosnia, Kosovo will join greater Albania etc.”
So far none of those happened therefore all predictions of McKenzie were just bubble. These facts tell very clearly about the credibility of such “experts”. We don’t have any reasons to believe anymore what the lobbyists say.
"The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US.."
So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.
The basic fact is that Serbia is no longer in such a weak position as it used to be. It is still not very good, but it could certainly be worse. The pendulum is swinging back against the West (mostly through its own incompetence) as we will particularly see after the next elections in the Ukraine.
There was an article a year or two ago in the Financial Times that quoted a business man with regards to albanian controlled Kosovo. He said if it is a question of markets, he would of course invest in Serbia with 8 million citizens...
Unfortunately the albanians in Kosovo refuse to recognize their weakening position and still assume unconditional support from the US/De/whomever. Time is running out...
"All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!"
Cheers// Kim from Sweden
(Kim, 7 December 2009 17:13)
Kim, you are so blinded by YOUR obvious dislike of Serbs that you claim anything written disputing Albanian claims must be written by Serbs and it has to be propaganda as well.
There are many reputable people who have written articles disputing Albanian and NATO claims who are not Serbs and in no way affiliated with Serbs. Ever stopped to think that Kate is getting her information from those sources as well and making an informed opinion? Guess not.
Here is a link from a non Serb.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger20.html
Try this link which is also written by a non Serb.
“So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.”
Actually it was me who provided the facts that the number of Kosovo war victims was far bigger than the number offered by a Serbian poster here. The counter facts offered by the second poster were just opinions of an individual who can write what he wants. Therefore I don’t need to provide more facts about the truth presented by Jonathan Steele since there are thousand of biased articles worthless to be commented. The serious sources deserve facts to be countered; in the case being discussed you compare the Hague Tribunal which is much more reliable with the article of Jonathan Steele. If you don’t accept the Hague Tribunal for neutral then that it is your problem.
“Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.”
Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? To be sincere I don’t care for Nigerian or whatsoever and I don’t think they do for me. Therefore I don’t see any reason to be desperate at all while Jeremic & Co may continue to waste time with declarations which have no basis especially on the ground. The pro Kosovo arguments up to now have been so far excellent as the other coming. On contrary we are so happy that Serbia seeks for hope to China (Communists), Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Cyprus, Russia and so on. Sorry but everybody can see such “strong” position of Serbia. With such country the democracy lesson of Serbia borrowed from them can really consolidate its position. Good luck with them.
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Peggy(too)
I am really wondering that you repeat one and the same things over and over again from years. To be biased doesn’t necessary mean to be Serbian. The paid lobbyist can behave as such. You know very well what I mean. Against this people you mention there have been thousand of articles which contest them. Just watch it in YouTube the debate between McKenzie and ex Nato General W Clark. The ridiculous comparisons he made about Kosovo with Israel and other baseless statements make everybody sick. Why should one believe what McKenzie says and not Clark? The later was in charge during the war and knows the situation much better than McKenzie whose opinions are in the front of all Serbian propagandists websites. These people that you mentioned have been in one way or another related to Serbia or Yugo (like James Bisset ex ambassador in yugo)and probably are still.
The Kim response is the best and much more valuable than any of us who are biased in regard of our national background. I wish to see more and more such realistic opinion from outside and not from lobbyists repeating one and the same things since 10 years now.
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
(Allez, 7 December 2009 23:46)
--
Learn to read Allez. Under 3000 have been confirm whereas 11000 was an initial estimate that has been proved inaccurate by a UN investigation.
“Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!”
As clear as I said. Such countries have equal votes in the UN but can not be taken as democracy prayers as Serbia portraits them. Their vote is exactly what Serbia cares of and nothing else in essence. As for those democratic countries attacking the others, check your clock first before commenting. Probably you time is right behind such as of China, Russia, India, Venezuela or Iran who has been recently visited by your officials. They have the same records concerning the human rights as Serbia had/has some years ago. As Russian you should have quite bitter memories from democratic countries. If that is what you are referring to than the next time mention it because it helps much to examine you comments.
Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 23:05)
How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.
Please don't tell me all these people have bad reputations for writing rubbish. I could post links to their articles if you wish. I have done this a few times already but will do it once more just for you.
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
"Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? "
Hilarious.
Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!
"Montenegro people" don't include those living abroad or even those in Serbia (260k) when Montenegro was still part of Serbia & Montenegro, i.e. the same country with a seat at the UN?
I wasn't questioning the legality of the decision (CoE: 19.12.05) to not to allow these people to vote, and we can hypothesize as much as we want about what might have been, but they were simply not allowed to partake. The demand that one has to be resident in Montenegro for 24 months was considered to be excessive, not to mention that these following rules must be accepted:
- the authorities must provide objective information;
- the public media have to be neutral, in particular in news coverage;
- the authorities must not influence the outcome of the vote by excessive, one-sided campaigning;
- the use of public funds by the authorities for campaigning purposes must be restricted.[4]
***
Lest us not forget that Đukanović and co had originally proposed a 40% hurdle for independence being accepted and then 50%. It was at the EU's insistence that 55% was adopted, the referendum passing by 55.5%
Taking in to account the usual corruption and margins, it was still accepted despite the rampant corruption (offering bills to be paid in return for a yes vote as seen in the Bušković scandal), not to mention NGOs campaigning for independence illegally.
EC Observers refused a recount.
On a number of said aspects, the Commission states that there are no internationally accepted standards and thus can only give an 'opinion'.
On something so fundamental as a referendum on secession, it was deemed safer by the ruling clique simply to not allow a quarter of million of their own citizens to vote.
Here's the link for the CoE's Venice Commission "on the compatibility of the existing legislation in Montenegro concerning the organization of referendums with applicable international standards"
Oh dear Marinels, descending to ad hominem attacks for lack of decent argument?
"Yes but, no but, yes but, no but".
As long as we don't mention the 500,000 iraqi children that died due to sanctions between 1991 and 2003, not to mentions the deaths consequently etc... but that's ok, they died for the right reasons.
Interesting choice of morals indeed.
BTW, I don't remember commenting on my origins so how would you know? As I said, please keep on commenting.
I'm just mentioning that it isn't quite as simple as where you live at either local or state level. It's never going to be a simple issues in these circumstances. I'm not disagreeing with you. That's all.
My point was that people should exercise their vote in the territory or republic they live and see their future in, in line with the democratic principle that those most affected by a political decision should have the biggest say in how it is made.
As for the amount of Montenegrins in Serbia, you know very well that many, if not most, of them were born and lived their whole life in Serbia, but were born to fathers with registered place of birth in Montenegro. The point is that in SFRY this didn't matter for any practical purposes, because what mattered was the SFRY citizenship and passport, and where your residence was registered. Hence, there were no reasons for children of Montenegrin fathers living in Serbia, or indeed elsewhere, to change their 'national' citizenship to correspond with the republic in which they lived, and gained the right to vote.
We are talking about voting rights in a federal political/electoral system, in which the citizens have voting rights at state, republican and local levels.
While all citizens of the state have an equal right to vote at state-level elections and decision, you choose yourself where you want to excercise your right to vote at local and republican-level elections based on where you register your residency.
In the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, citizens of both republics had of course the right to vote at the federal State Union level.
But just as Serbs with residence and the right to vote at local and Montenegrin (republican) elections could and should not at the same time have the right to vote for the elections to the Serbian Parliament, neither could or should Montenegrins with ditto residence and local/republican voting rights in Serbia have the right to vote at the Montenegrin referendum. Its that simple.
Jessie
Jessie,
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
(Mister, 8 December 2009 22:56)
Ian UK: "Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side."
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.
You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.
I have never seen an FM of any country doing so much flip-flopping on daily bases, like Mr. Jeremic does.
I just don't understand Serbian people,how they can stay indiferent with regard to FM job performances.
Kosovo has already settled its final status. No going back now. An advisory opinion from the ICJ can't do anything, that's even if it does rule in Serbia's favour. Kosovo has all the support it needs. Time is on Kosovo's side.
I don't understand, why do Serbian people still have the will and streght to deal with Kosovo. Didn't they have enough?! I am so suprised by the fact that they are so stuck in the past, instead of looking towards the future. I can't help being constantly amazed with you guys, not only the government but the whole people. Kosovo has 90% Albaninas who don't want to be part of Serbia, why don't you let them be?!
I have always read carefully your comments but to be sincere I never replied to them because of the old stuff that they contained. You have provided actually only your opinions which are heavily affected by Serbian propaganda but never real facts and arguments. Let me analyze some of them at least for this topic.
“Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.”
One again you are sure but where is based your argument? The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia and as everybody knows that was finally decided by Albanians in there. So dignity for Montenegro means to respect Albanians who will be always attached to Montenegro history independence. No matter who comes in power, the facts are facts and remains so through history. Opinions change frequently especially among Serbian people (with very fast rate) as far as I know them.
“I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.”
Everybody knows that Jeremic wants do delay recognitions. I wouldn’t say stop since it is not upon Jeremic to decide who recognizes Kosovo. The question here is how realistic is such attempt by knowing that more than 90 % of Kosovo population supports UDI!!! The Albanians over there had 100 years to think about it and only 10 years to remember why UDI was the only realistic solution. Moreover there are the most democratic countries in the world who have already stated that the negotiation table is not an option anymore.
“This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.”
You still mean peace and stability as pictured by Serbian side!!!! Sorry but there are many countries who think very differently. We Albanians don’t need lessons from China, India or Russia to understand what brings more peace and stability. First they are too far away and second they are absolutely no good models to be taken for peace and stability. The “false promising” such USA, UK, France, Japan, Germany etc. know better what peace and stability means and how to achieve them.
“Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.”
So you mean under Serbian control they wouldn’t be freezing but they would have been supplied free gas from Gazprom or what!!!! This pathetic statement is not needed at all. The last time I went to Kosovo from the border along the way to the capital I didn’t see any sign of Serbian state. 10 years ago I couldn’t take such trip which means that many things have changed on the ground since then. As a result I doubt very much that Kosovo in reality still remain legally part of Serbia.
“Why are you speaking as though it's your homeland anyway? I thought you were English and have only ever met a few Kosovo Albanians via your Dad's charity work.”
What has to do this comment with the topic being discussed? Absolutely nothing, moreover when I see your comments they are 100 times biased than of lan UK. You are English too and I doubt that u have ever met any Albanian in you life except of being mainly influenced by Serbian propaganda.
“You could at least fill your comment with a few solid facts and reasons instead of just regurgitating the Kosovo Albanian line. I may be pro the Serbian stance, but at least I provide solid reasons for being so - ie. the protection of international law which affects all of us.”
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
We really have cornered our ethnic Albanian seperatists. They have a choice of remaining in the black hole that Kosovo is and maintaining the status quo, which means no future for the province - or they can come back to the negotiating table.
If they are forced to negotiate then it really means their one and only chance at independence has failed.
That is the dilema they face. Do they want a prosperous future or do they want to stick with their Illyrian past and go nowhere?
Although Kosovo Albanians may make up 90% of the provincial population, they only control about 65% of the territory and a lot of that is through ethnic cleansing. Those citizens living in 35% of Kosovo's territory are loyal to Serbia and that includes the Gorani's, Serbians and other non-Albanians.
Independence is irreversibly blocked at every corner, so there is only one path to prosperity and that is through negotiations.
wait i am confused ... 1st he says that montenegro will revoke its recognition then he says that montenegro will open an office in kosova?
what - am i confused or what? what a joke. serbia has yet to apologize for the crimes done against the albanians and also its own people in serbia .... and it knows very well that no albanian will ever be under the rule of serbia. lets live as neighbors.
Easy for you to say from your nice warm home in the UK. People in Kosovo are in dire straits and facing a freezing winter. There is mass unemployment, poverty and the province still legally remains part of Serbia.
Nothing has been settled.
(kate, 7 December 2009 12:25)
--
Thank you Kate for stating the obvious.
I have heard many ethnic Albanians here claim that they would rather starve to death than to negotiate or compromise with Serbia.
It's easy for them to say when they live in the US or Europe and have food on the table plus heating in their homes.
What about the people of Kosovo? Ethnic Albanians were being murdered by their own if they remained loyal to Serbia. The whole separatist movement is based on crime, murder, aggression and illegal activity. Their leaders also remain warm and well fed while the provincial population continues to suffer.
Serbia is not going to reward ethnic cleansers, murderers, war mongers and criminals. We are open to negotiations and a fair compromise. It's fairly simple.
Miles: "On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair."
Yes, and I know where I would like to stick that carrot; the same place from which he spewed all his warmongering ego-driven evangelistic spin which has cost so many lives while he swans around with his pretensions to the European throne.
Mark - There is nothing confusing at all. I am sure that Montenegro and Serbia will always have strong links, no matter who is running the countries. Sooner or later those who jump through hoops will be exchanged for those with a bit of dignity and spine.
I think that what Jeremic says makes perfect sense. He wants to stop the recognitions of the illegal UDI and then return to the negotiating table.
This is where the solution is going to be delivered for long term peace and stability. And this time not with a pre-determined outcome and false promises from outside parties.
“unilateral change of borders of a peaceful, democratic, internationally recognized state against the will of the UN Security Council is acceptable.”
when the hell did Serbia get peaceful and democratic? since 1850 Serbia have been in war with its neighbors. Good God do Jeremic really think that the new generation of Serbs will bilive his words instead of reading history. Because I am 100% sure that what Jeremic is saying day in and out have nothing to do with convincing others than young serbs that they country leaders are not coldblooded murders but they were saints and the hole world is against Serbia.
Marinels. I can't seriously respond to anyone who is still touting the 12,000 figure, or rehashing the usual pro Blair era supercilious blurb from The Guardian or wherever.
Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?
Or perhaps that justice is found for the thousands of innocent people maimed, killed or made homeless by the attack in 1999?
It is interesting that you see my perspective as being Serbian nationalist, when I am neither of those things. But if you had truly followed my comments you would know that.
Never mind, I am sure that Ian UK loves you for defending his right to be on the same Western media bandwagon as yourself (although passengers are getting notably light, thank goodness).
Zoran, a "international black hole (which is btw. extremely far away considering the fact that almost the whole West has recognized Kosovo) is still 1000 times more preferable than a Serbian hellhole.
I was expecting to win lottery this week, but hey that didn’t materialise.
Bummer.
Maybe we’ll have more luck next week Vuk (or the week after……… after….. or the week after………-- how long can a comment bee for me to continue the “or the week after………” sentence).
I guess the solution would be:
- I finally put/write the right numbers in the lottery ticket
- You finally stop putting your wishful thinking as given.
I can assure Mr. Vuk (Mr. Wolf – you see we have a “snake” and you have a “wolf”) you that there will be no more status discussions, ever.
Please don’t consider Kosovo as a piece of land as Serbs still do. International law never gave to Serbs any right to kill and massacre 12000 thousands Albanians. The next time provide here solid and valuable facts in order to consider them seriously.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 14:04)
12000 murdered now? Please use some of these facts you ask for and do not give me the same tired and biased stats from recipients of the Albanian lobby.
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
(ozymandias, 7 December 2009 13:12)
--
ozy, Kosovo Albanians constitute about 20% of their country's population, not 90%. They occupy about 10% of the territory but want 15%. 80% of the population are strongly opposed to it.
I have been reading the comments here in B92 for a long time now without making one single comment.
Today i saw one off your posts who really gave me the will too get involved.
You made a comment too Ian about his support for Kosovo and claim that he is doing this with no basis and only with propaganda from the albanian side.
Yet you your self do exactly the same comment purely on the serbian propaganda. examples follows.
The only ones who claim that Kosovos declaration was not in accordance with International law is the around 20 countrys so far.
And most off the rest are undecided on how they should react, and yet you claim here that they support Serbias claim.
Example 2. You claim that in Kosovo there was under 5000 victims, the only ones claiming that is the Serbians!
You totaly disregard the fact that every single UN or EU made counts take that number too above 12000 dead.
All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!
Good stuff. Jeremic should also add that the Montenegrin cigarette boys aren't going to be around forever and Serbia knows that relations between Serbia and Montenegro will return to normal.
On another point can we all stop using the 'carrot and stick' cliche it is getting to be so boring, so unimaginative. Can B92 start banning this cliche? If I hear 'carrot and stick' one more time I'll drink a toast to Tony Blair.
What we want to do is to make sure there are no new recognitions of Kosovo after the ICJ case ends, and to not allow Kosovo to join any international organizations in which members must be sovereign countries. If we are successful, it will become obvious that there is no alternative but to restore dialogue,” Jeremić told Belgrade daily Blic
He is right! If he lived in some other planet and he nwas king of the world.
Next when the ICJ opinion comes in than a wave of recognitions will come that will take us to required level for UN membership. In 5 years things will change and there will be a new member of the UN0-KOSOVO.JEREMIC is doing a good job he is just making sure that recognitions come in as a wave and not one by one.
it´s quite obvious that you simply do not understand it at all...
the reason why we won´t let the greater-albanians get away with our territory is - the same one that made us resist several centuries of ottoman occupation without converting to islam or even take over their oriental habits and culture.
don´t worry Serbia will prevail and everything will be fine ( not only because it is in line with international law )
but one thing should be clear to you, my dear - we will not let you go with our serbian soil.
if you want to leave, you´re free to do so, but if not, you will have to accept the inevitable.
if you sit somewhere in down-town Pristina in some internet-cafe,just take a look everywhere around you and remember - "this is Serbia".
UNE - can't any of you albo's read? which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Do you think that policies dont change. You count on support from countries that change their policies depending on shich govement is in power. As far as Russia wait a few more years. Putin wont be around forever. Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and I dont think theyw ill get it with Putin in power. Soon there will be a new wave in Russia that changes all icluding foreign policy.
US and Engalnd and France and germany never have theyb changed foreign policy. No matter what goverment no matter what party. China in about 10 years will stop growing and be ailing actually i think that has started read WSJ and you will see what I am talking about.
Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried
To Kate
If the international law forces 90% of the population of a country to subdue to the will of the rest, then it is just about the time to change it (although i am sure it doesn't).
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
In 1989 you took away Autonomy as was clearly described by Croatia, you say the war was K-Albanians fault. 11K people are talked here as if they were inconvenience, and quick reply oh also XX amount of Serbs were killed too. When u have mas grave in your sentence and your try to defend it I am sorry for you.
People go to Jail for killing DOG's just an animal.
Have any of Serbian Bloggers here ever thought about how would they feel If they were K-Albanian and after all this they were told you have to live under same country that did kill 11,236 but it was your fault.
Stop looking it as inconvenience, and just because Tadic says we are looking or Vuk Discovers peaceful means in year 2009 does not make it ok and K-Albanins will go under Serbia.
I know Thaqi is a idiot, thief, all the things u want to name but he is no way close to what we had before 1999 and you know we have a choice to get rid of him.
Kosovo is not for sale hence no Negotiations.
Is Serbia owner of kosovo maybe long ago today no. I hope after this u look forward to better days if not life goes on Kosovo can exist without Serbia so can Serbia without Kosovo.
ozymandias - It must be a Balkan thing, Serbia's stubborness is matched by Pristina's continued persistent claims that it will not allow the Serbs in northern Kosovo to be a part of Serbia. Both sides are pig headed!
Ian, UK - you couldn't be further from the truth. If the ICJ rules emphatically in Serbia's favour that will be the final nail in the coffin for kosovo. Either they'll decide to stay isolated or they'll start negotiating with Belgrade. They'll simply have no other choice. If the ICJ reaffirms Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo then there is no way ANYBODY will invest in Kosovo. It'll be an economic black hole. The US might throw a few scraps in Kosovo's direction so that it can keep it's bases there but Kosovo (like the rest of the Balkans) needs massive investment. Investors will only plough money into Kosovo if they can get some kind of return and that'll revolve around Trepca and any other resources in Kosovo because there simply is no other industry in Kosovo of any merit apart from agriculture. No-one will touch trepca with a barge pole knowing that Serbia will sue the pants off them, so it could end up being a stalemate. Kosovo with nowhere to go and Serbia not being allowed by NATO to control it's territory - Kosovo. Who do you think will blink first? A province that no investor will touch or the largest country in the balkans which can freely trade with anyone!
UNE - which part of UN membership rules don't you understand? to become a member of the UN needs authorisation from the UNSC. You think China and Russia will allow Kosovo in?
Kate - because it's much easier for Ian to dream than to face reality. I constantly dream that I'm a multi billionaire living on some beautiful tropical island. Unfortunately, my reality nowhere near matches my dream!!
It seems that the number of victims is much closer to 12000 than to 5000 as you like it.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 18:09)
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Umm, no, that was an initial estimate for deaths on all sides and not just Albanians so your figures are highly exaggerated and imagninative as usual. You see, it also estimated deaths caused by NATO and the KLA.
I have the following report - Check http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/aug/18/balkans3 - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:
"When the tribunal's teams reached Kosovo last summer, shortly after the international peacekeepers, they were given reports of 11,334 people in mass graves, but the results of its exhumations fall well short of that number. In a few cases, such as the Trepca mine where hundreds of bodies were alleged to have been flung down shafts or incinerated, they found nothing at all.
The exhumation of less than 3,000 bodies is sure to add fuel to those who say Nato's intervention against Yugoslavia was not "humanitarian" and that it had other motives such as maintaining its credibility in a post-cold war world.
But officials will not say how many of the 2,788 bodies exhumed show clear signs of being victims of summary execution such as being shot in the head from close range.
No Nato government has sought to produce a definitive total of murdered ethnic Albanian civilians since the Serb offensives began in March 1998, a year before the bombing. "No one is interested," complained a senior international official in Kosovo involved in helping victims' families. "Nato doesn't want to admit the damage wasn't as extensive as it said. Local Albanian politicians have the same motive. If you don't have the true figure, you can exploit the issue."
Radoslav please let me know were do you read the news from.If US alone stops produsing everything right now it will take Russia and China together more than 30 years to come to were US is NOW.Get some real news from google and dont search Komunist propaganda.
UNE - "Russia is in dire straitts in need of foreign capital and........"
UNE, go find a friend who is proficient in economics and ask him who is a better position financially, Russia + China or the EU + US.
If Russia is in financial dire straits then the EU and US must be bankrupt. Russia is in a MUCH BETTER financial position then either the EU or US.
And as for China stopping growing!!!! Did you even study basic kindergarten economics in school? China will not only be growing in 10 years, 20 years or 50 years from now, it'll be growing faster than either the EU or US.
So do everyone a favour. Don't try to pretend there are articles in the WSJ that claim this "fact" because we all know it's BS, especially those of us who live in the West. You could just about top this off by saying that they've found general Mladic hiding in Serbia with his accomplices, Hitler and Stalin, and they were being harboured by Jesus Christ. Your previous comment makes about as much sense!!
“Those numbers have long since been disproved and lowered to under 5,000 including combatants. And of course every war crime (carried out by and against all ethnicities) should be investigated. Are you bothered that there were also crimes against Serbs and Roma, or Albanians by the KLA?”
Again you proved very obviously what I said before. Your opinions based on “what has been said” are quite nonsense. Who are the unbiased sources which calculate the number of Kosovo victims in 5000??? Even one life if precious but lets play with numbers. Here is the citation of Hague tribunal about the victims just some months after the war:
“In a briefing to the Security Council on 10 November 1999, the newly appointed Chief Prosecutor for the Tribunal, Carla del Ponte, reported that after five months of investigation by forensic specialists from 14 countries, the Tribunal has received reports of 11,334 bodies in 529 gravesites, including sites where bodies were found exposed………
On 22 May 1999, the ICTY issued its most significant indictment thus far, when it charged a sitting head of State and several other high-level officials of the governments of the FRY and Serbia with war crimes and crimes against humanity in relation to the conflict in Kosovo. By the date of the indictment, it was reported that approximately 740,000 Kosovo Albanians, that is about one-third of the entire Kosovo Albanian population, had been expelled from Kosovo”
With so many long winded comments, it's actually boring to read as the repetitive he said she said accusations keep pilling up.
I think the key word for all is COMPROMISE. Serbia understand that the Kosovo Albanians should rule themselves as should Kosovo Serbs. Let's find that COMPROMISE in good faith and move forward together as neighbors of good will.
We all deserve a second chance to right our mistakes.
Straigh talk!
What does it mean "a compromise solution" according to Serbia?
Please DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH WORDS!
I am giving HARD FACTS.
What are the Serbian rhetorics towards Montenegro not to establish diplomatic relations with Kosova?
Is that a compromise approach?
By trying to undo Kosova's independence Serbia is REALLY annoying the Albanians in Kosova. THAT IS a true FACT. Is that approach an "approach to compromise". Anyone with a little bit of brain will be able to see the oposite.
Serbia is testing the Albanian intellegence when "suggesting a compromise solution" and of course it is all demagogy for internal and external consumption which the Albanians are used with.
Final thing, trust me there will be NEVER RETURN TO SERBIA.
A compromise solution to a reconsiliation between Albanians and Serbs would be Serbia not to waste time and energy in stopping the unstoppable, recognise Kosova's independence, enter friendship agreements with Kosova, free movement of goods and people, agreements to fight together crime and corruptions and together in EU. Anything else is a waste of time, money and energy.
“I have the following report - Check [link] - which came a year after the one your quoted (in summary or read the link for the big picture) - the last paragraph is the important one:”
I needed only few minutes to find out who is the author of the article regarding the victims of Kosovo war. Your copy paste extracts doesn’t turn the lies into truth at all. The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US and even Israel by supporting controversial ideas about the Iraqi war, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Palestine. His articles are used in many Serbian websites used as “information sources of illegal NATO war against Serbia”. Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
'Mainly the Kosovo allies never change foreign policy but yours do. So be very worried'
I had to laugh when I saw this. Has UDE forgotten that it was mainly the influence of the UK which returned Kosovo to Serbia in the first place? So much for Kosovo allies never changing policy.
Cassidy, you need to stop living in the past. The facts remain, independence is irreversibly blocked regardless of how many recognitions there are.
There is no future or prosperity in Kosovo unless ethnic Albanians return to the negotiating table. Look, Palestine has over 100 recognitions and what good has that done?
(Zoran, 7 December 2009 15:38)
There is a big differance between Palestine and Kosovo.
Israel is no Serbia, and there is no control of Kosovo from Serbia the way Israel controls Palestine.
Serbia cant Even bring its Air force 25KM near Kosovo. Palestine can dream of achieving what Kosovo has today on its table. Just to have Mobile phone they need bandwith approved from Israel. Sorry Zoran, K-Alb dont want negotiation where on the other hand Palestinians are begging and waiting at same time Israel increases settlements.
Kosovo does not need to be in FIFA UEFA UN now in time yes but today no need.
More recognitions will come from people that want to, only 25 countries that can invest we can have strong relations for now lets develop Economy. IMF EBRD, EU still wants to work with Kosovo we are fine. This is VUK wishful thinking.
Serbia does not want to accept fine so be it, we will continue to progress even if they are small steps, if it looks small for Sebia fine we dont mind as long as K-Albanins are happy and if someone is not they can always move where they belive is better. But stop demanding you are no longer in possition to do so.
China is as good as the US that buys its products.
Russia is as good as the oil and gas it makes. In 15 years it will be about 85 Dollars per barrel to produce oil coming from the Russian steppes so really no money to made from Russia.
"FM expects new Kosovo status talks" totally unrealistic, and negotiate about what? About giving Kosovo to Serbia? Come on dude, you know it is not going to happen, as a matter of fact Kosovo can be negotiated when Serbia starts accesion talks with the EU, and I guarantee Serbia will be against those negotiations about Kosovo.
One slight difference between economical crisis/boom in Russia and the one in EU/USA:
Economical crisis in EU/USA means that people cannot afford to change their car every year or buy a new 52 inch LCD TV every 6 months.
Economical crisis in Russia/China means there is famine.
Booming economy in Russia means that the state can feed the population.
Luxury is not in the agenda.
'He added that the negotiations between Belgrade and Priština fell through in December 2007 because the participating parties "stated in advance what must the outcome of the [negotiating] process". '
The "Group Ten Guiding Principles for Ahtisaari" said that “Kosovo [will] not return to the pre-March 1999 situation”. (Written statement by France, p. 37). This could have been autonomy, federation, ... almost anything except the imposition of military rule by Serbia over Kosovo.
Isn't it funny how at first the Albanians were desperately calling for the initiation of status talks, while Serbs were even against direct talks with Albanians, but now we have Serbs desperate for talks. Too little too late I say.
Better a state with 63 recognitions than a province living in fear under Serbia's boot.
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Here are some of the McKenzie disinformation and prediction for the future regarding the effects of Kosovo independence:
He said:” the attack on US embassy was the attack against M Albright.” Did he know that Albright was gone years ago and the US embassy is the representative of US government and US people. That is how he justifies the criminal acts of hooligans in Serbia.
He said: “Racak massacre was the stage event by KLA.” It is rare for and retired general to live in denial. The world watched the Racak massacre through facts on the ground while he pretends otherwise. Not different language from Serbian nationalists and radicals.
He said: “the consequences can be equal in China (Tibet), Russia (Chechnya), Spain(Basque region), India (Kashmir) and most ridiculous: Palestinians are already talking declaring themselves independent, in republic of Srpska they are meeting now in Banya Luka to declare independence from Bosnia, Kosovo will join greater Albania etc.”
So far none of those happened therefore all predictions of McKenzie were just bubble. These facts tell very clearly about the credibility of such “experts”. We don’t have any reasons to believe anymore what the lobbyists say.
“So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.”
Actually it was me who provided the facts that the number of Kosovo war victims was far bigger than the number offered by a Serbian poster here. The counter facts offered by the second poster were just opinions of an individual who can write what he wants. Therefore I don’t need to provide more facts about the truth presented by Jonathan Steele since there are thousand of biased articles worthless to be commented. The serious sources deserve facts to be countered; in the case being discussed you compare the Hague Tribunal which is much more reliable with the article of Jonathan Steele. If you don’t accept the Hague Tribunal for neutral then that it is your problem.
“Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.”
Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? To be sincere I don’t care for Nigerian or whatsoever and I don’t think they do for me. Therefore I don’t see any reason to be desperate at all while Jeremic & Co may continue to waste time with declarations which have no basis especially on the ground. The pro Kosovo arguments up to now have been so far excellent as the other coming. On contrary we are so happy that Serbia seeks for hope to China (Communists), Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Cyprus, Russia and so on. Sorry but everybody can see such “strong” position of Serbia. With such country the democracy lesson of Serbia borrowed from them can really consolidate its position. Good luck with them.
“How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.”
Peggy(too)
I am really wondering that you repeat one and the same things over and over again from years. To be biased doesn’t necessary mean to be Serbian. The paid lobbyist can behave as such. You know very well what I mean. Against this people you mention there have been thousand of articles which contest them. Just watch it in YouTube the debate between McKenzie and ex Nato General W Clark. The ridiculous comparisons he made about Kosovo with Israel and other baseless statements make everybody sick. Why should one believe what McKenzie says and not Clark? The later was in charge during the war and knows the situation much better than McKenzie whose opinions are in the front of all Serbian propagandists websites. These people that you mentioned have been in one way or another related to Serbia or Yugo (like James Bisset ex ambassador in yugo)and probably are still.
The Kim response is the best and much more valuable than any of us who are biased in regard of our national background. I wish to see more and more such realistic opinion from outside and not from lobbyists repeating one and the same things since 10 years now.
"All you do is support the Serbian side and only on the basis off the Serbian information given.
This have made me come too the conclusion that you eather are Serbian your self or married too one or somehow related too anyone off them.
Becouse all you have done so far come with "facts" directly from the serbian propaganda machine and yet try too throw dirt at anyone even claiming too be outsider!"
Cheers// Kim from Sweden
(Kim, 7 December 2009 17:13)
Kim, you are so blinded by YOUR obvious dislike of Serbs that you claim anything written disputing Albanian claims must be written by Serbs and it has to be propaganda as well.
There are many reputable people who have written articles disputing Albanian and NATO claims who are not Serbs and in no way affiliated with Serbs. Ever stopped to think that Kate is getting her information from those sources as well and making an informed opinion? Guess not.
Here is a link from a non Serb.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/pilger/pilger20.html
Try this link which is also written by a non Serb.
IS AN ALBANIAN WORTH MORE THAN A TIBETAN?
(Ron, 8 December 2009 01:54)
Ron, based on your comment(s) you are trying to say this (below)!!!
Just because the Tibetan issue is not resolved (just because we cannot help Tibetans now) then all surprised nations must remain suppressed????
Ron,
Think of this from a different angle.
With the world accepting Kosovo the Tibetan cause is stronger and closer to the resolve than it was prior to Kosovo declaring independence.
Why do you think China is backing Serbia on ICJ?
So say it was 11200 people that were killed as Zoran claims. this is not enough for you Mr.
(Allez, 7 December 2009 23:46)
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Learn to read Allez. Under 3000 have been confirm whereas 11000 was an initial estimate that has been proved inaccurate by a UN investigation.
"The author Jonathan Steele is well known to be in many cases against NATO, US.."
So rather than attacking his arguments with facts which you have singularly failed to do, you just attack him because of what he writes doesn't agree with you? How democratic, how fair and how impressive. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Comment to Serbian posters. I am quite happy with the continually low standard of comments by the pro-albanian crowd.
These comments have been getting more and more desperate over the last couple of weeks whenever there is positive news, though the most disturbing were about the Nigerians and their refusal to recognized 'Kosova'.
The basic fact is that Serbia is no longer in such a weak position as it used to be. It is still not very good, but it could certainly be worse. The pendulum is swinging back against the West (mostly through its own incompetence) as we will particularly see after the next elections in the Ukraine.
There was an article a year or two ago in the Financial Times that quoted a business man with regards to albanian controlled Kosovo. He said if it is a question of markets, he would of course invest in Serbia with 8 million citizens...
Unfortunately the albanians in Kosovo refuse to recognize their weakening position and still assume unconditional support from the US/De/whomever. Time is running out...
Therefore such articles don’t have any value at all. Next time bring in here at least unbiased sources since the internet gives the possibility to verify very easily who is writing what.
(Marinels, 7 December 2009 23:05)
How about sources like John Pilger (journalist and author of many books), Gen L MacKenzie, James Bissett, (former Canadian Ambassador), Gregory Clark (former Australian diplomat now president of a Tokoyo university), Scott Taylor, Noam Chomsky and others.
Please don't tell me all these people have bad reputations for writing rubbish. I could post links to their articles if you wish. I have done this a few times already but will do it once more just for you.
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
(Aleks, 7 December 2009 23:56)
You should read the Council of Europe's Venice Commission on this issue. The point is very simple: if you have registered your residence and thereby acquired your right to vote in one federal republic, you can not at the same time have the right to vote in the other. If there would be a referendum on independence for Scotland, Englishmen with residence and voting rights in Scotland can vote, not Scots that have chosen to acquire ditto in England.
As far as Montenegro is concerned, all polls conducted in Montenegro (including by Serbian pollsters) point to increasing support for independence since the referendum in 2006. If the referendum would have been held today, more than 60% would for sure have voted for independence. This is not an expression of being anti-Serb, just the recognition of reality that both Serbia and Montenegro are better off as brothers with the responsibility to keep their respective houses in order, than the endless bickering about who should control which parts of one house, a house on a foundation of sand...
"Could you enlighten us what is the difference according to you between low and high standards or how you measure them??? We Albanians are talking with neutral reliable facts, you Serbs & CO with old stuff articles of NATO and US hatters. We are being supported by the EU democratic countries, you by African third world countries who don’t even know where are Serbia and Kosovo let alone the problem in question??? "
Hilarious.
Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!
"Montenegro people" don't include those living abroad or even those in Serbia (260k) when Montenegro was still part of Serbia & Montenegro, i.e. the same country with a seat at the UN?
I wasn't questioning the legality of the decision (CoE: 19.12.05) to not to allow these people to vote, and we can hypothesize as much as we want about what might have been, but they were simply not allowed to partake. The demand that one has to be resident in Montenegro for 24 months was considered to be excessive, not to mention that these following rules must be accepted:
- the authorities must provide objective information;
- the public media have to be neutral, in particular in news coverage;
- the authorities must not influence the outcome of the vote by excessive, one-sided campaigning;
- the use of public funds by the authorities for campaigning purposes must be restricted.[4]
***
Lest us not forget that Đukanović and co had originally proposed a 40% hurdle for independence being accepted and then 50%. It was at the EU's insistence that 55% was adopted, the referendum passing by 55.5%
Taking in to account the usual corruption and margins, it was still accepted despite the rampant corruption (offering bills to be paid in return for a yes vote as seen in the Bušković scandal), not to mention NGOs campaigning for independence illegally.
EC Observers refused a recount.
On a number of said aspects, the Commission states that there are no internationally accepted standards and thus can only give an 'opinion'.
On something so fundamental as a referendum on secession, it was deemed safer by the ruling clique simply to not allow a quarter of million of their own citizens to vote.
“Thanks for giving the perfect example. How is dismissing "african and 'third world countries" who also have equal votes in the UN as irrelevant whilst only considering the 'democratic' and 'powerful' countries (i.e. the ones who have been illegally attacking other countries too over the last two decades) a balanced and reasoned argument? Not only that but there is a distinct anti-african/developing world under current in your comments.
This is the kind of 'low quality' comments I was referring to. Please, keep it up!”
As clear as I said. Such countries have equal votes in the UN but can not be taken as democracy prayers as Serbia portraits them. Their vote is exactly what Serbia cares of and nothing else in essence. As for those democratic countries attacking the others, check your clock first before commenting. Probably you time is right behind such as of China, Russia, India, Venezuela or Iran who has been recently visited by your officials. They have the same records concerning the human rights as Serbia had/has some years ago. As Russian you should have quite bitter memories from democratic countries. If that is what you are referring to than the next time mention it because it helps much to examine you comments.
Oh dear Marinels, descending to ad hominem attacks for lack of decent argument?
"Yes but, no but, yes but, no but".
As long as we don't mention the 500,000 iraqi children that died due to sanctions between 1991 and 2003, not to mentions the deaths consequently etc... but that's ok, they died for the right reasons.
Interesting choice of morals indeed.
BTW, I don't remember commenting on my origins so how would you know? As I said, please keep on commenting.
"The majority of Montenegro people voted to be separated country from Serbia"
There's nothing like half a fact.
Your comment is not true. Djukanovic and his cronies expressly forbid the couple of hundred thousand montenegrins living in Serbia to vote and neither let montenegrins living abroad vote.
Corruption by the West's friends is always acceptable.
My point was that people should exercise their vote in the territory or republic they live and see their future in, in line with the democratic principle that those most affected by a political decision should have the biggest say in how it is made.
As for the amount of Montenegrins in Serbia, you know very well that many, if not most, of them were born and lived their whole life in Serbia, but were born to fathers with registered place of birth in Montenegro. The point is that in SFRY this didn't matter for any practical purposes, because what mattered was the SFRY citizenship and passport, and where your residence was registered. Hence, there were no reasons for children of Montenegrin fathers living in Serbia, or indeed elsewhere, to change their 'national' citizenship to correspond with the republic in which they lived, and gained the right to vote.
This guy(Jeremic) I think deserves a place in teh Guiness Book of Records for his continues NON-sense.
(PRN, 7 December 2009 09:57)
Yes, indeed his non-sense has alreay brought the consultation at the ICJ, a complete halt of recognitions (free and "forced"), the visa liberalisation, the unblocking of the trade deal and certainly more to come...
A few months ago you and you peers were shouting that none of the above will happen in the next 10 years, so facts have proven that your are wrong... and now, what else do you have apart from continuously critizing the others for your limbo situation...., not much, or maybe something, working to improve it, but I guess this is neither part of your culture nor belongs to your vocabulary!!
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
We are talking about voting rights in a federal political/electoral system, in which the citizens have voting rights at state, republican and local levels.
While all citizens of the state have an equal right to vote at state-level elections and decision, you choose yourself where you want to excercise your right to vote at local and republican-level elections based on where you register your residency.
In the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, citizens of both republics had of course the right to vote at the federal State Union level.
But just as Serbs with residence and the right to vote at local and Montenegrin (republican) elections could and should not at the same time have the right to vote for the elections to the Serbian Parliament, neither could or should Montenegrins with ditto residence and local/republican voting rights in Serbia have the right to vote at the Montenegrin referendum. Its that simple.
Jessie
Jessie,
You can live and work in another country and vote in Scottish Elections. Many do. It is based on residency as opposed to where you actually live. Maybe that's not relevant but of course you can vote in UK elections so long as you are registered, regardless of where you live.
(Mister, 8 December 2009 22:56)
Here's the link for the CoE's Venice Commission "on the compatibility of the existing legislation in Montenegro concerning the organization of referendums with applicable international standards"
I'm just mentioning that it isn't quite as simple as where you live at either local or state level. It's never going to be a simple issues in these circumstances. I'm not disagreeing with you. That's all.
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