Serbian delegation comments on ICJ debate

Its clear that neither PRN nor Kosovo-USA have actually read and understood the detail of each case presented thus far.

Seems Like Albania's case put forth was this should not be be considered in the ICJ - well tough its here and they had no legal stance at all. All their arguments pointed out to the alarming thought that if ethnic-Albanians can declare so could any group of people anywhere - totally contradicting the earlier arguments that this was all unique! Seems like the self contradictions are setting in very rapidly.

They also seem very perplexed by the narrowness of the question at stake - no wonder the US tried but failed to block this getting to the ICJ & the UK through its ambassador tried to stop Serbia from going down this route. Everybody knows the declaration is illegal what the West want is a way to not make it so blatant but sems like they are contradicting themselves. What made me laugh was the line by the Albanian counsel that some of it will be repetitive - apolising in advance and then they ran out of time - classic example of little substance and little preperation LOL!!!

Germany in essence points to the usual but non-legal argument "its done so accept" well again this really is not a legal argument. So again any representative group of people ofor what ever cause that they collect behind could do the same anywhere in any nation - totally against the whole principles and laws upon which sovereignty and territorial integrity of any UN state is maintained. How far can this be drilled down to - individual households declaring seccesion? Could be a way to reduce Tax - maybe the Germans will be happy to allow the same to happen in Germany too on the grounds they put forth?

As for Saudi Arabia - what was the point? It clearly highlights the desperate situation of those who have been arm twisted into illegal recognition by their US overlords - the Saudi's probably weren't quite sure why they were there themselves as they seemed to have little of substance to add. They may have well have just come out with the full truth - we recognised and are here because the US told us to!

Its clear the illegal supporters of this still born are falling over themselves in total contradiction to each other and the principles and laws that apparently they can undercut in Serbia's soverignty but fail to see the impact on underming the very same to there own soverignty. Cant wait for the US and UK 45 minutes of fun!

Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we plan to deceive.....

- the web of deceit is just entangling those who created this illegal mess!

PRN: ""I'm afraid it's almost tantamount to a legal scandal to go before the International Court of Justice and say that international law does not cover the issue of secession, especially for someone who would like to be the world's youngest state," he continued.

oh dear, sorry but it appears that ICJ is not of the same standard as Serbian justice."


PRN - He is referring to the stance made by the "Authors of the Declaration", not by the court itself.

The argument in the introduction by the Kosovo Albanian side is that the case shouldn't even be before the court. That's a bit of a lost argument seeing as the General Assembly went through due process to decide it should.

So far they have come up with no legally convincing argument whatsoever, which is what happens when various parties try to change the boundaries of a nation through spin, bullying and illegal actions.

There is no legal basis for the right of a group to declare independence and for various countries to recognise it. Kosovo and its partners have dismissed and disrespected all international laws.

They are even bringing up the A Plan which we all know was binned at the UN.

Was Albania's support in World War 2 mentioned?

kosovo is Serbian and serbia has china,Russia and India and Brazil and many huge countries on her side. albanians on here talk about germnay and albania you must be joking and next is belarus and other former soviet republics that are on serbia's side. all albanians should get is autonomy with some political say but under the Serbian umbrella because if this goes threw then the whole world will be in chaos so think then speak.

It's a big mistake to believe that Hashish and the gang will accept any negative resolution of the ICJ. Violating one more rule or one more law is not a problem for them. Under no conditions they will change their behavior. So the meaning of the coming resolution is not a practical but a moral and a psychological one. And from this point of view it means more for Serbia than for the other side. Besides world narco mafia will never refuse from such a transiting area with direct flights to Afghanistan.

I doubt very much the ICJ will come back with a clear yes or no answer to the question. UNSCR 1244 is fairly clear about retaining Serbia's territorial integrity but it is not water tight.

Everyone agreed the status quo is not sustainable and rightly so. It is argued the UDD was authored for the very reason to break the status quo and two years later, we still remain there with no sight of breaking it. Both China and Russia will confirm their intention never to allow independence so it is a dead-in-the-water issue.

Since the status quo is not sustainable, while the US cannot continue to support this failed entity (in fact, it can't even support itself - check http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/currencies-us-dollar-debt-burden-94908.aspx ), so the next step is to return to the negotiating table except this time independence cannot be an option as it is simply not viable to support a dead issue. It has failed and cannot be achieved.

So based on comments made by the Serbian delegation, the answer to the question of legality is not so important but proving that the independence drive is no longer sustainable would seem to be the purpose here and a return to the negotiating table is the victory being sought.

If the ruling is that secession was legal the consequence is that international low is dead and buried for everybody to see and the party can start in full swing. If the ruling is that secession was illegal, it would probably lead to pressures that resulting in negotiations (what previously happened was sham and it did not fulfil criteria to be called negotiations). It will be interesting to see how professional judges will be; they are between loyalty to their countries (and good positions when they come back) and the opportunity (once in a lifetime) to make a history. Rarely have I seen a legal case that is as straightforward as this one is.

To une -

"His Excellency" does not have to mean Prime Minister. This is how ambassadors, governors etc. are also addressed.

Obradović would not comment on Wednesday's arguments made by Albania and Germany, which supported the unilateral declaration, while he said Saudi Arabia's short statement was "devoid of any legal arguments".

Albania and Germany were excellent. No wonder he is not willing to coment on these two countries presentation.

"I'm afraid it's almost tantamount to a legal scandal to go before the International Court of Justice and say that international law does not cover the issue of secession, especially for someone who would like to be the world's youngest state," he continued.

oh dear,

sorry but it appears that ICJ is not of the same standard as Serbian justice.

The world is glad for that.

You seem to accept the fact that the things are evolving as expected...and the outcome will be known to you too (I suppose)...in capital and BOLD...

Kosovo independence does not breach International Law

to kate!

Excellency is a honorific style given to certain members of an organization or state.

Usually, people styled "Excellency" are counted amongst:

heads of state
heads of government
ambassadors
certain ecclesiastics
certain members of royalty

So unless Hyseni is a king which he is not than he must be a head of state...

It’s interesting how all of you are so in tune with International Law today but when Serb forces were killing innocent women and children all across the Balkans no one uttered a word about it. I wonder how many International Laws Serbia violated all through the 90’s across the Balkans. Our independence is not a violation of International Law, Serbia’s illegal occupation of Kosovo is.
Under no circumstance will Kosovo ever be brought back to Serbian Rule. You can forget about this. We will be in the UN and EU one of two ways, and you can chose which one.
Either Serbia recognizes Kosovo independence and we can all join EU together or Kosovo can join the Republic of Albania and by default become a UN and NATO member automatically and eventually join the EU.
I prefer option number two myself but the choice is yours.

Serbia is only stalling recognitions....but we still gain from the nation building. A prime example is the Kosovar minority turn out on the 15NOV elections.

This predicament reminds me of Croatia breaking up..."we'll never allow Croatia to go" etc etc.

"Serb forces were killing innocent women and children all across the Balkans no one uttered a word about it. I wonder how many International Laws Serbia violated all through the 90’s across the Balkans?"

(Ylber, 3 December 2009 16:46)

Only the judge in the sky and his court can answer that question.

Obradović would not comment on Wednesday's arguments made by Albania and Germany, which supported the unilateral declaration,

Why would he comment? Every single issue raised by Serbian team was perfectly answered and put to the spot.Obradovic didn't like that so he decided to comment on something that he likes.The Argentinian statement.

The Kosovo Albanian side, invited to the proceedings as "the authors of the declaration", in a way negated the importance of international law, said Obradović.

They refer to Mr hyseni as HIS EXCELLENCY so prime minister

Kosovo will win this case no doubt. Serbs have no case at all after 1989-2008. You cannot treat the people of a region like dogs and repress them for decades and in the end use international law to keep that people/region in the clows. International law dosen't mean nothing after what K.albanians went through under serbian occupation. And there is nothing that sayes Kosovo is Serbia. Ottoman ruled Kosovo for 500 years but that dosen't mean it is their land. Serbs occupyed the area after 1912 and wanted to take Albania as well but diden't succeed. Kosovo and western Macedonia is purly albanian land wich albanians have been a majority since at least 17,th century.


But not to go far into history Serbia killed it's albanians citizens under 98-99 and that is why Kosovo independence is irreverseble. You cannot negotiate with an human being wich you forcely tryed to kill. And Kosovo is the land of the people who lives there and Serbia has no legal right to snatch the territory against the will of the poeple.

I would like to thank Argentina for their very principled stand and very strong arguments against this criminal 'greater albania' plan of the imperialists.
I will have a glass or two of some fine Malbec for them.
Viva Argentina!!

Argentina has provided no new arguments. They are just restatements of Serbia's arguments made on the first day of the hearings.

Yesterday, Albania and Germany have provided exceptional arguments. Albania's arguments not have only provided the framework on which the independence is in accordance with international law followed by particular examples similar to previous cases but have also argued Serbia's arguments made the previous day. The Rambuillet agreement, the 1974 constitution, the UN Resolution are argued by both Germany and Albania to have provided the framework and layed the ground for independence.

Germany as well has provided good arguments that show the accordance of the DI with the international law. Saudi Arabia has just argued the reasons why it has accepted the DI and why it supports it simply going parallel with the arguments made by other countries in support of DI.

proving that the independence drive is no longer sustainable would seem to be the purpose here and a return to the negotiating table is the victory being sought.
(Zoran, 3 December 2009 11:17)

Not sure what you are referring to Zoran, the independence DRIVE ended in Feb. of 2008. The legs of the negotiating table and Serbian rule collapsed at Chateau Rambouillet. I'm afraid that table was scrapped for fire wood long ago. No court in their right mind would attemot ti turn the clock back in the Balkans by ruling against Kosova, the countries of the Balkans are currently experiencing unprecedented cooperation and peace.

I wonder why is not the presentation of Kosova in the transcript that you guys are submitting here....

" tantamount to a legal scandal"

Trying to cheer serbs daily. "Our arguments are the best," blah blah blah.

They will say it's legal because others will say we're identical to Kosova's case, they can't say is illegal for obvious reason so down the middle and Serbia loses

This case brought before the ICJ by Serbia is utterly frivolous and a waste of everyone's money. A cure for this would be to have the loser pay for all costs for the opinion to be eventually issued, if ever, by the ICJ.

I would also like to explain why another set of negotiations will NEVER take place.

It appears that some people on this forum have the desire to believe the word "negotiations" has a broader meaning than the a dictionary definition and, therefore, think they can embellish at will.

Allow me to clear up a few misconceptions.

First, at the conclusion of said negotiations, there is no guarantee that both parties involved will be happy with the outcome.

Second, at the conclusion of said negotiations, neither party involved has the right to ask for another chance to negotiate on the same issue if the first outcome does not suit the unhappy party(s).

And thirdly, negotiations need not go on indefinitely just because one of the two parties involved is not satisfied with the "final offer" at the time the deadlock.

In practice, for those who have never been involved in a negotiations process, in the event of a deadlock, the dominant party usually imposes his will on the weaker party. That, my friends, is the reality.

Nothing new under the sun

Score 0-0

and nothing to get exited about, it will remain like this upto the end!

My experience in commercial disputes is never to walk away from negotiations because measures taken when they fail are normally worse for both parties. I believe that is the case here and I still believe there is a solution if there is the will.
(Mister, 4 December 2009 12:27)

Mister,

I'm afraid your experience in "commercial" disputes does not qualify you to speak on "non-commercial" disputes such as the current case before the ICJ dealing with the DI of Kosovo. Need I remind you that unresolved commercial disputes do not ever result in war or are they taken to the ICJ for resolution or, as in this case, for opinions rendered.

And here its an opinion being asked nothing will change, just some more material For fellow nationalist in each camp.
(Bilbao, 5 December 2009 21:31)

That's the point though. Things need to change. Better sticking to the status quo than this is my opinion. Anything other than change just harms people. It is and will continue to be deadlock and that will severely hinder the progress of Kosovo and Serbia.

You need to get agreement. In line will Olli's comment bellow, less the more "contentious" comments, Serbia has changed. I think you can even achieve agreement on independence with dual sovereignty on paper only and provided that Belgrade has a special place in matters that concern Serbs and their heritage. Give them the way out.

The K-Albanians have the strongest negotiating position ever but that can change. All you need to do is talk.

Personally, I would never agree with K-Albanians being under threat again. That however does not mean I support independence for a number of reasons. Not least that it will make it much more difficult to deal with issues in the future.

Now I await the responses that "they" cannot be trusted, etc.

Michael R,

Negotiations normally end in agreement. Effective negotiation strategies always offer the weaker party some way out, not to be backed into a corner. Otherwise negotiation fails.

My experience in commercial disputes is never to walk away from negotiations because measures taken when they fail are normally worse for both parties. I believe that is the case here and I still believe there is a solution if there is the will.

Michael R invites me to read the meaning of the term negotiation in a very ironical way, but I let this go now without wasting much energy on subject, that includes a good share of semantics. Just one notion: Negotiations do sometimes evolve into situation where an ultimatum is given. I've experienced this. But with this act negotiations (discussion aimed at reaching agreement) stop being negotiations, but instead become a situation for hostile threats and punishment.

I see that there's no place for negotiations as long as Kosovars don't want them. But there very likely will come a time when they need negotiations, even if they still don't want them. Today Kosovars behave the way that they are completely blind for what has happened in Serbia: big changes, true progress among the majority of people is taking place, not only among the progress driven political elite. It's true that not yet all have matured and sincere attitudes, but the train is on the move. Kosovars, naturally have their self imposed or God given rights not to see this, even when it chiefly is to their own disadvantage and harm. So, we can listen to their plans, or threats, of joining with Albania, and even with Albanians of Macedonia. If I was really nasty and ill-willing person I would say "go ahead, do it!". Though this drug-like national-ethnic euphoria offers some satisfaction to Kosovars I can't believe they don't realize that joining with Albania would only mean a slippery slope backwards and to (un)imagineable troubles. But in case ethnic unity under one state is their highest goal, they could stop being all mouth and act according the big dream. But, to repeat myself, I say they don't have neither will nor balls to do it. Instead they stay throwing insults hiding behind shields that others hold.

(Olli, 5 December 2009 18:54)

The issue for K-Albanians not to want to agree with developments in Serbia is Clear. Since they can see that they are looked as property as inconvenience.

If Serbia was offering something good and that will benefit them I am sure they will listen But 90% of that population still has a vivid memory or 1998 and 1999.

Most K- Albanians do not want to join Albania do not listen to the ultra nationalist that come here. There has been a long time since we have lived together.

If that happens its more because they have no choice and its last resort.

(Mister, 4 December 2009 12:27

This is not Commercial dispute since in those cases u have a contract and if issues come and no agreement you always can go to Arbitration which every good contract has. If it does not its not a good commercial contract.

And here its an opinion being asked nothing will change, just some more material For fellow nationalist in each camp.

Michael R,

The only thing you have done is have a pop at me.

Now maybe you would be kind enough to explain your experience, your position and what way disputes of a different nature are not comparable save the consequences of failure? Maybe you can teach us all something? That it can result in war seems to back up what I said.

Btw, why can't there be further negotiation after a previous negotiation failed?

Bilbao,

Actually, I see less and less arbitration clauses and many would argue that a good contract does oust the jurisdiction of a court of law. That's got nothing to do with the issues however.

Actually, I see less and less arbitration clauses and many would argue that a good contract does oust the jurisdiction of a court of law. That's got nothing to do with the issues however.
(Mister, 5 December 2009 23:26)

Maybe on your line of work and i would agree a good contract should have no need for Arbitration, But face it when u have a 100ME contract u need it just in case.
Agree with your point nothing to do with this situation but you had brought it up.
Status quo works in Serbias plain this is why Tadic asked to have 10 to 20 years no talk on status waiting for winds to change. After ICJ both sides will claim victory but Albanians have a country recognized and can interact with 63 countries.

On your other point we cant have new rules dual sovereignty it wont work. The sites in Kosovo can have special protection international, I thought they already are. They already rule 95% of territory and they know Serbia will have to stop paying special salary to people living in Kosovo (or maybe they can). Most they can loose is N.Mitrovica , Gracanica and I know this is what Serbia wants to say oh we got this. But I will tell you those Serbs will get short stick after politicians wont pay attention to them will move on.

Talk and negotiate when u can gain something, K-Albanians dont see what they could gain since Serbia does not offer more or anything equal what they have.

I know they are not in UN, but countries that can make a difference have already accepted them. and really what good will come from Berundi or Nigeria any African country that have not accepted Kosovo. They know Russia will never be their friend to much history with Serbia and that’s fine.

I know Serbs have Argued about (Greece , Slovakia, Cyprus , Rumania and Spain) But K-Alb know that EU is Ruled by Germany, France UK and Italy the rest Dutch ….Kosovo is not even close to join EU at least 10 to 15 years if not 20 this is not important at all now. Work hard with 63 you have or just 25 that can invest.

My last point is its not about trust so much as fear, you just need to read people here on any day and see how they speak that 1998 1999 did not happen its insulting really how can someone believe that. And I don’t know what CNN, BBC RTS showed but I tell you Milosevic and his bras caused some real damage and pain. Serbs should be mad at him the most.

We have a difference of opinion but I do not think we are so far apart.

Kosovo has a massive amount to gain by its status being resolved. Otherwise, the investment is handouts.

I understand why there would be fear but I don't see the current course any better in those terms.

IMO Kosovo should have without prejudice status talks with Belgrade. Maybe we would all be surprised. We wont know until they try however. What is there to lose?

Bilbao, you wrote:

"Talk and negotiate when u can gain something, K-Albanians dont see what they could gain since Serbia does not offer more or anything equal what they have."

This is where you go wrong. But we can return to this issue after 10 or 15 years, we don't have to argue about this now. By that time it can be seen what should have been done. A small hint, though: It's not only Serbia that would offer more than what Kosovo and Kosovars have today.

One way to get things moving to better directions from this status quo (from which Serbia suffers nothing compared to Kosovo) is if progressive and intelligent Kosovars and Serbs together form nongovernmental think tanks and forums that first let the emotional steams be expressed but channeled to concentrate on critical and honest observations of mistakes done by "own team". Only criticism allowed is about own policies. Or is someone still not recognizing that both sides contributed to this catastrophe?

Obradović would not comment on Wednesday's arguments made by Albania and Germany, which supported the unilateral declaration, while he said Saudi Arabia's short statement was "devoid of any legal arguments".

Albania and Germany were excellent. No wonder he is not willing to coment on these two countries presentation.

"I'm afraid it's almost tantamount to a legal scandal to go before the International Court of Justice and say that international law does not cover the issue of secession, especially for someone who would like to be the world's youngest state," he continued.

oh dear,

sorry but it appears that ICJ is not of the same standard as Serbian justice.

The world is glad for that.

You seem to accept the fact that the things are evolving as expected...and the outcome will be known to you too (I suppose)...in capital and BOLD...

Kosovo independence does not breach International Law

Kosovo will win this case no doubt. Serbs have no case at all after 1989-2008. You cannot treat the people of a region like dogs and repress them for decades and in the end use international law to keep that people/region in the clows. International law dosen't mean nothing after what K.albanians went through under serbian occupation. And there is nothing that sayes Kosovo is Serbia. Ottoman ruled Kosovo for 500 years but that dosen't mean it is their land. Serbs occupyed the area after 1912 and wanted to take Albania as well but diden't succeed. Kosovo and western Macedonia is purly albanian land wich albanians have been a majority since at least 17,th century.


But not to go far into history Serbia killed it's albanians citizens under 98-99 and that is why Kosovo independence is irreverseble. You cannot negotiate with an human being wich you forcely tryed to kill. And Kosovo is the land of the people who lives there and Serbia has no legal right to snatch the territory against the will of the poeple.

It’s interesting how all of you are so in tune with International Law today but when Serb forces were killing innocent women and children all across the Balkans no one uttered a word about it. I wonder how many International Laws Serbia violated all through the 90’s across the Balkans. Our independence is not a violation of International Law, Serbia’s illegal occupation of Kosovo is.
Under no circumstance will Kosovo ever be brought back to Serbian Rule. You can forget about this. We will be in the UN and EU one of two ways, and you can chose which one.
Either Serbia recognizes Kosovo independence and we can all join EU together or Kosovo can join the Republic of Albania and by default become a UN and NATO member automatically and eventually join the EU.
I prefer option number two myself but the choice is yours.

The Kosovo Albanian side, invited to the proceedings as "the authors of the declaration", in a way negated the importance of international law, said Obradović.

They refer to Mr hyseni as HIS EXCELLENCY so prime minister

" tantamount to a legal scandal"

Trying to cheer serbs daily. "Our arguments are the best," blah blah blah.

They will say it's legal because others will say we're identical to Kosova's case, they can't say is illegal for obvious reason so down the middle and Serbia loses

I wonder why is not the presentation of Kosova in the transcript that you guys are submitting here....

Serbia is only stalling recognitions....but we still gain from the nation building. A prime example is the Kosovar minority turn out on the 15NOV elections.

This predicament reminds me of Croatia breaking up..."we'll never allow Croatia to go" etc etc.

to kate!

Excellency is a honorific style given to certain members of an organization or state.

Usually, people styled "Excellency" are counted amongst:

heads of state
heads of government
ambassadors
certain ecclesiastics
certain members of royalty

So unless Hyseni is a king which he is not than he must be a head of state...

Its clear that neither PRN nor Kosovo-USA have actually read and understood the detail of each case presented thus far.

Seems Like Albania's case put forth was this should not be be considered in the ICJ - well tough its here and they had no legal stance at all. All their arguments pointed out to the alarming thought that if ethnic-Albanians can declare so could any group of people anywhere - totally contradicting the earlier arguments that this was all unique! Seems like the self contradictions are setting in very rapidly.

They also seem very perplexed by the narrowness of the question at stake - no wonder the US tried but failed to block this getting to the ICJ & the UK through its ambassador tried to stop Serbia from going down this route. Everybody knows the declaration is illegal what the West want is a way to not make it so blatant but sems like they are contradicting themselves. What made me laugh was the line by the Albanian counsel that some of it will be repetitive - apolising in advance and then they ran out of time - classic example of little substance and little preperation LOL!!!

Germany in essence points to the usual but non-legal argument "its done so accept" well again this really is not a legal argument. So again any representative group of people ofor what ever cause that they collect behind could do the same anywhere in any nation - totally against the whole principles and laws upon which sovereignty and territorial integrity of any UN state is maintained. How far can this be drilled down to - individual households declaring seccesion? Could be a way to reduce Tax - maybe the Germans will be happy to allow the same to happen in Germany too on the grounds they put forth?

As for Saudi Arabia - what was the point? It clearly highlights the desperate situation of those who have been arm twisted into illegal recognition by their US overlords - the Saudi's probably weren't quite sure why they were there themselves as they seemed to have little of substance to add. They may have well have just come out with the full truth - we recognised and are here because the US told us to!

Its clear the illegal supporters of this still born are falling over themselves in total contradiction to each other and the principles and laws that apparently they can undercut in Serbia's soverignty but fail to see the impact on underming the very same to there own soverignty. Cant wait for the US and UK 45 minutes of fun!

Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we plan to deceive.....

- the web of deceit is just entangling those who created this illegal mess!

proving that the independence drive is no longer sustainable would seem to be the purpose here and a return to the negotiating table is the victory being sought.
(Zoran, 3 December 2009 11:17)

Not sure what you are referring to Zoran, the independence DRIVE ended in Feb. of 2008. The legs of the negotiating table and Serbian rule collapsed at Chateau Rambouillet. I'm afraid that table was scrapped for fire wood long ago. No court in their right mind would attemot ti turn the clock back in the Balkans by ruling against Kosova, the countries of the Balkans are currently experiencing unprecedented cooperation and peace.

"Serb forces were killing innocent women and children all across the Balkans no one uttered a word about it. I wonder how many International Laws Serbia violated all through the 90’s across the Balkans?"

(Ylber, 3 December 2009 16:46)

Only the judge in the sky and his court can answer that question.

Was Albania's support in World War 2 mentioned?

Obradović would not comment on Wednesday's arguments made by Albania and Germany, which supported the unilateral declaration,

Why would he comment? Every single issue raised by Serbian team was perfectly answered and put to the spot.Obradovic didn't like that so he decided to comment on something that he likes.The Argentinian statement.

I doubt very much the ICJ will come back with a clear yes or no answer to the question. UNSCR 1244 is fairly clear about retaining Serbia's territorial integrity but it is not water tight.

Everyone agreed the status quo is not sustainable and rightly so. It is argued the UDD was authored for the very reason to break the status quo and two years later, we still remain there with no sight of breaking it. Both China and Russia will confirm their intention never to allow independence so it is a dead-in-the-water issue.

Since the status quo is not sustainable, while the US cannot continue to support this failed entity (in fact, it can't even support itself - check http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/currencies-us-dollar-debt-burden-94908.aspx ), so the next step is to return to the negotiating table except this time independence cannot be an option as it is simply not viable to support a dead issue. It has failed and cannot be achieved.

So based on comments made by the Serbian delegation, the answer to the question of legality is not so important but proving that the independence drive is no longer sustainable would seem to be the purpose here and a return to the negotiating table is the victory being sought.

It's a big mistake to believe that Hashish and the gang will accept any negative resolution of the ICJ. Violating one more rule or one more law is not a problem for them. Under no conditions they will change their behavior. So the meaning of the coming resolution is not a practical but a moral and a psychological one. And from this point of view it means more for Serbia than for the other side. Besides world narco mafia will never refuse from such a transiting area with direct flights to Afghanistan.

kosovo is Serbian and serbia has china,Russia and India and Brazil and many huge countries on her side. albanians on here talk about germnay and albania you must be joking and next is belarus and other former soviet republics that are on serbia's side. all albanians should get is autonomy with some political say but under the Serbian umbrella because if this goes threw then the whole world will be in chaos so think then speak.

PRN: ""I'm afraid it's almost tantamount to a legal scandal to go before the International Court of Justice and say that international law does not cover the issue of secession, especially for someone who would like to be the world's youngest state," he continued.

oh dear, sorry but it appears that ICJ is not of the same standard as Serbian justice."


PRN - He is referring to the stance made by the "Authors of the Declaration", not by the court itself.

The argument in the introduction by the Kosovo Albanian side is that the case shouldn't even be before the court. That's a bit of a lost argument seeing as the General Assembly went through due process to decide it should.

So far they have come up with no legally convincing argument whatsoever, which is what happens when various parties try to change the boundaries of a nation through spin, bullying and illegal actions.

There is no legal basis for the right of a group to declare independence and for various countries to recognise it. Kosovo and its partners have dismissed and disrespected all international laws.

They are even bringing up the A Plan which we all know was binned at the UN.

To une -

"His Excellency" does not have to mean Prime Minister. This is how ambassadors, governors etc. are also addressed.

If the ruling is that secession was legal the consequence is that international low is dead and buried for everybody to see and the party can start in full swing. If the ruling is that secession was illegal, it would probably lead to pressures that resulting in negotiations (what previously happened was sham and it did not fulfil criteria to be called negotiations). It will be interesting to see how professional judges will be; they are between loyalty to their countries (and good positions when they come back) and the opportunity (once in a lifetime) to make a history. Rarely have I seen a legal case that is as straightforward as this one is.

Argentina has provided no new arguments. They are just restatements of Serbia's arguments made on the first day of the hearings.

Yesterday, Albania and Germany have provided exceptional arguments. Albania's arguments not have only provided the framework on which the independence is in accordance with international law followed by particular examples similar to previous cases but have also argued Serbia's arguments made the previous day. The Rambuillet agreement, the 1974 constitution, the UN Resolution are argued by both Germany and Albania to have provided the framework and layed the ground for independence.

Germany as well has provided good arguments that show the accordance of the DI with the international law. Saudi Arabia has just argued the reasons why it has accepted the DI and why it supports it simply going parallel with the arguments made by other countries in support of DI.

I would like to thank Argentina for their very principled stand and very strong arguments against this criminal 'greater albania' plan of the imperialists.
I will have a glass or two of some fine Malbec for them.
Viva Argentina!!

This case brought before the ICJ by Serbia is utterly frivolous and a waste of everyone's money. A cure for this would be to have the loser pay for all costs for the opinion to be eventually issued, if ever, by the ICJ.

I would also like to explain why another set of negotiations will NEVER take place.

It appears that some people on this forum have the desire to believe the word "negotiations" has a broader meaning than the a dictionary definition and, therefore, think they can embellish at will.

Allow me to clear up a few misconceptions.

First, at the conclusion of said negotiations, there is no guarantee that both parties involved will be happy with the outcome.

Second, at the conclusion of said negotiations, neither party involved has the right to ask for another chance to negotiate on the same issue if the first outcome does not suit the unhappy party(s).

And thirdly, negotiations need not go on indefinitely just because one of the two parties involved is not satisfied with the "final offer" at the time the deadlock.

In practice, for those who have never been involved in a negotiations process, in the event of a deadlock, the dominant party usually imposes his will on the weaker party. That, my friends, is the reality.

Michael R,

Negotiations normally end in agreement. Effective negotiation strategies always offer the weaker party some way out, not to be backed into a corner. Otherwise negotiation fails.

My experience in commercial disputes is never to walk away from negotiations because measures taken when they fail are normally worse for both parties. I believe that is the case here and I still believe there is a solution if there is the will.

Nothing new under the sun

Score 0-0

and nothing to get exited about, it will remain like this upto the end!

Michael R invites me to read the meaning of the term negotiation in a very ironical way, but I let this go now without wasting much energy on subject, that includes a good share of semantics. Just one notion: Negotiations do sometimes evolve into situation where an ultimatum is given. I've experienced this. But with this act negotiations (discussion aimed at reaching agreement) stop being negotiations, but instead become a situation for hostile threats and punishment.

I see that there's no place for negotiations as long as Kosovars don't want them. But there very likely will come a time when they need negotiations, even if they still don't want them. Today Kosovars behave the way that they are completely blind for what has happened in Serbia: big changes, true progress among the majority of people is taking place, not only among the progress driven political elite. It's true that not yet all have matured and sincere attitudes, but the train is on the move. Kosovars, naturally have their self imposed or God given rights not to see this, even when it chiefly is to their own disadvantage and harm. So, we can listen to their plans, or threats, of joining with Albania, and even with Albanians of Macedonia. If I was really nasty and ill-willing person I would say "go ahead, do it!". Though this drug-like national-ethnic euphoria offers some satisfaction to Kosovars I can't believe they don't realize that joining with Albania would only mean a slippery slope backwards and to (un)imagineable troubles. But in case ethnic unity under one state is their highest goal, they could stop being all mouth and act according the big dream. But, to repeat myself, I say they don't have neither will nor balls to do it. Instead they stay throwing insults hiding behind shields that others hold.

My experience in commercial disputes is never to walk away from negotiations because measures taken when they fail are normally worse for both parties. I believe that is the case here and I still believe there is a solution if there is the will.
(Mister, 4 December 2009 12:27)

Mister,

I'm afraid your experience in "commercial" disputes does not qualify you to speak on "non-commercial" disputes such as the current case before the ICJ dealing with the DI of Kosovo. Need I remind you that unresolved commercial disputes do not ever result in war or are they taken to the ICJ for resolution or, as in this case, for opinions rendered.

(Olli, 5 December 2009 18:54)

The issue for K-Albanians not to want to agree with developments in Serbia is Clear. Since they can see that they are looked as property as inconvenience.

If Serbia was offering something good and that will benefit them I am sure they will listen But 90% of that population still has a vivid memory or 1998 and 1999.

Most K- Albanians do not want to join Albania do not listen to the ultra nationalist that come here. There has been a long time since we have lived together.

If that happens its more because they have no choice and its last resort.

(Mister, 4 December 2009 12:27

This is not Commercial dispute since in those cases u have a contract and if issues come and no agreement you always can go to Arbitration which every good contract has. If it does not its not a good commercial contract.

And here its an opinion being asked nothing will change, just some more material For fellow nationalist in each camp.

Michael R,

The only thing you have done is have a pop at me.

Now maybe you would be kind enough to explain your experience, your position and what way disputes of a different nature are not comparable save the consequences of failure? Maybe you can teach us all something? That it can result in war seems to back up what I said.

Btw, why can't there be further negotiation after a previous negotiation failed?

Bilbao,

Actually, I see less and less arbitration clauses and many would argue that a good contract does oust the jurisdiction of a court of law. That's got nothing to do with the issues however.

And here its an opinion being asked nothing will change, just some more material For fellow nationalist in each camp.
(Bilbao, 5 December 2009 21:31)

That's the point though. Things need to change. Better sticking to the status quo than this is my opinion. Anything other than change just harms people. It is and will continue to be deadlock and that will severely hinder the progress of Kosovo and Serbia.

You need to get agreement. In line will Olli's comment bellow, less the more "contentious" comments, Serbia has changed. I think you can even achieve agreement on independence with dual sovereignty on paper only and provided that Belgrade has a special place in matters that concern Serbs and their heritage. Give them the way out.

The K-Albanians have the strongest negotiating position ever but that can change. All you need to do is talk.

Personally, I would never agree with K-Albanians being under threat again. That however does not mean I support independence for a number of reasons. Not least that it will make it much more difficult to deal with issues in the future.

Now I await the responses that "they" cannot be trusted, etc.

Actually, I see less and less arbitration clauses and many would argue that a good contract does oust the jurisdiction of a court of law. That's got nothing to do with the issues however.
(Mister, 5 December 2009 23:26)

Maybe on your line of work and i would agree a good contract should have no need for Arbitration, But face it when u have a 100ME contract u need it just in case.
Agree with your point nothing to do with this situation but you had brought it up.
Status quo works in Serbias plain this is why Tadic asked to have 10 to 20 years no talk on status waiting for winds to change. After ICJ both sides will claim victory but Albanians have a country recognized and can interact with 63 countries.

On your other point we cant have new rules dual sovereignty it wont work. The sites in Kosovo can have special protection international, I thought they already are. They already rule 95% of territory and they know Serbia will have to stop paying special salary to people living in Kosovo (or maybe they can). Most they can loose is N.Mitrovica , Gracanica and I know this is what Serbia wants to say oh we got this. But I will tell you those Serbs will get short stick after politicians wont pay attention to them will move on.

Talk and negotiate when u can gain something, K-Albanians dont see what they could gain since Serbia does not offer more or anything equal what they have.

I know they are not in UN, but countries that can make a difference have already accepted them. and really what good will come from Berundi or Nigeria any African country that have not accepted Kosovo. They know Russia will never be their friend to much history with Serbia and that’s fine.

I know Serbs have Argued about (Greece , Slovakia, Cyprus , Rumania and Spain) But K-Alb know that EU is Ruled by Germany, France UK and Italy the rest Dutch ….Kosovo is not even close to join EU at least 10 to 15 years if not 20 this is not important at all now. Work hard with 63 you have or just 25 that can invest.

My last point is its not about trust so much as fear, you just need to read people here on any day and see how they speak that 1998 1999 did not happen its insulting really how can someone believe that. And I don’t know what CNN, BBC RTS showed but I tell you Milosevic and his bras caused some real damage and pain. Serbs should be mad at him the most.

We have a difference of opinion but I do not think we are so far apart.

Kosovo has a massive amount to gain by its status being resolved. Otherwise, the investment is handouts.

I understand why there would be fear but I don't see the current course any better in those terms.

IMO Kosovo should have without prejudice status talks with Belgrade. Maybe we would all be surprised. We wont know until they try however. What is there to lose?

Bilbao, you wrote:

"Talk and negotiate when u can gain something, K-Albanians dont see what they could gain since Serbia does not offer more or anything equal what they have."

This is where you go wrong. But we can return to this issue after 10 or 15 years, we don't have to argue about this now. By that time it can be seen what should have been done. A small hint, though: It's not only Serbia that would offer more than what Kosovo and Kosovars have today.

One way to get things moving to better directions from this status quo (from which Serbia suffers nothing compared to Kosovo) is if progressive and intelligent Kosovars and Serbs together form nongovernmental think tanks and forums that first let the emotional steams be expressed but channeled to concentrate on critical and honest observations of mistakes done by "own team". Only criticism allowed is about own policies. Or is someone still not recognizing that both sides contributed to this catastrophe?