Kosovo Albanian Foreign Minister Skender Hyseni says Kosovo’s representation before the ICJ will be presenting very strong evidence to support its independence.
that's not what I said, nor did I use that argument for the pro - independence ideology. Please go read the first comment, then read my comment. Thanks.
I asked the question and DimTuc was good enough to provide his answer. Personally, I don't think that works because it doesn't sit with the "special case" argument. Nor does it sit well with the European Commission's position on international law as construed in the early 90's when considering various issues in Yugoslavia.
As for demographics being the key - well that really would set a dangerous precedent.
The only argument I see in Kosovo's favour is 10 years has passed. But even that is a problem because 10 years has also passed in Serbia.
Vlao, we know what was like life of Serbs in south Metohija (N.Albania) and Serbs in Kosmet now. I strongly believe it is perfect moment for them to ask independence. Will you answer me on this?
There is very strong evidence AGAINST supporting Kosovo independence. Kosovo shows no sign of allowing the Serbs to rebuilt their destroyed churches and destroyed monasteries. Even though hundreds of mosques have been built over the ruins of these destroyed sites, new churches and monasteries can be built somewhere else on government acquired land or land seized by the government from eminent domain. Before the ethnic ALbanians talk of independence, let the Serbs have their newly constructed churches and monasteries, which can be done through Serbian financial expense and Serbian volunteer effort. May the Christian God personally deal with those Kosovars who block efforts of the Serbs to have their churches and monasteries back.
Nice argument for the independence of RS or even Krajina. Krajina was autonomous for centuries, WAY longer than the couple of years Kosovo was.
You also have to look at the reasoning behind Kosovo’s autonomy. Why did Kosovo and Vojvodina get autonomous regions under Tito, but RS and Krajina did not?
Is the reality that Kosovo’s autonomy was based solely on the racist policies of Tito designed to erode the democratic rights of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia?
So DimTuc, either you have the rights for ALL ethnicities to live in their own country and we need a complete make over of the borders, or you are for keeping the borders the way they are and try to keep consistent with the earlier reasoning for the independence of Croatia & Bosnia, but not Krajina or RS.
By the way, since you seem to be misunderstand the constitution. Croatia & Bosnia did have a right under the Yugoslav Constitution to succeed, Kosovo and Vojvodina did not.
As far as the Albanian population being abused by the Serbian government. That is indeed horrible, but again, the Serbian people suffered ethnic cleansing and murder until KLA rule too.
So Dim Tuc
Why one rule for Serbians and one different rule for everyone else in the Balkans?
It makes me laugh how the Serbs keep calling Kosova a Serb province, yeah right... just like they kept on calling Krajina a part of Serbia. Realistically speaking Kosova will never ever return under Serb rule. Ethnic minorities in Serbia who were once forced to obey the 'Communist Corpoarte Fat Cats' in Beograd have had enough and want out. Even the Hungarians in Vojvodina are sick to death with the hidden form of hatred Serbia currently practices towards it;s minorities.
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
(The Swiss, 29 November 2009 20:40)
Actually is the other way around. Serbia is putting so much effort and wasting a lot of money trying to proove Kosova is wrong.
Kosovo was already with Serbia and the world saw what happened to them.
now it's time for them to be free.
I think we might have another ICJ ruling on Vojvodina very soon.
“Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case? Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
(Mister, 29 November 2009 18:59)”
The legal case is that Kosovo under the Yugoslav constitution (ie, before it was abrogated by Milosevic in 1989) did not merely have “autonomy within the Serbian republic” as is widely and simplistically argued. Rather, its constitutional status was “more than autonomy, less than full republic.” For example, it had all the attributes of a republic which did not apply to mere “autonomous” regions, such as its own central bank and territorial defense unit, and in addition was a constituent unit (in the constitution) of the Yugoslav federation in its own right, directly, not via Serbia, having its own representative on the 8-person federal presidency, who also had a turn as president on a rotational basis equal to those of full republics. Being also “autonomous within Serbia” as well was largely a formality, except for the brutal occupation from 1981 onwards by the Serbian-dominated Yugoslav armed forces.
What this special status means is that when Yugoslavia ceased to exist, a very good argument can be made that Kosovo had the same right to self-determination as other republics, because to become a mere autonomous province of Serbia (now that Yugoslavia had gone) would be a downgrading of its status. Of course it could also be argued that this special status, being not that of a full republic, meant that when Yugoslavia fell apart, Kosovo should have something like “more than autonomy, less than independence.” What this COULD have meant in practice in 1991-99 is that Kosovo could have become the third republic along with Serbia and Montenegro in the “New Yugoslavia,” ie, less than independence. But of course, that never happened; not even Kosovo’s constitutional autonomy was restored, on the contrary, the repression and apartheid were entrenched. That’s because “new Yugoslavia” was of course nothing of the sort; it was merely a cover for Greater Serbia.
In that context, the events of 1999 – as you put it, “the issues surrounding the regime in 1999” – would strongly swing the argument in favour of full independence.
Of course, the Albanian leadership could do itself a favour if it offered to the K Serbs what Slobo never offered them: for Kosovo to be a bi-national federation of the Albanian and Serb people, but completely independent without the “supervised” baby status.
The evidence will be in the form of readings of the entrails of a chicken slaughtered over a huge caldron containing wing of bat and eye of nute bubbling over a fire.
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 23:49)
You are talking about private property which has nothing to do with borders of a country.
So by your reasoning Hispanic neighbourhoods in the US can proclaim independence due to them owning so much private property.
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
The only change in the world after the ruling will be a flood of comments in this column probably outlining how corrupt the ICJ is!
But then we have already had most of them preliminarily in anticipation of a verdict haven't we.
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
(aRTa, 29 November 2009 15:00)
Oh Yes - K-Albanians had autonomy. And probably to much autonomy, because autonomous albanian government discriminated K-Serbs and organized anti-state riots (eg. 1981).
Your 'strong arguments for independence' are absolutely phony when juxtaposed with Serbian definition of it:
'ethnically motivated secession'.
You will have to explain how is your 'independence' other than just - ethnically motivated secession,unilaterally declared.
can't wait to see the outcome of the trial.
If emotion does come into it, then the Serbs have a lot to tell as well. Decades of being terrorised.
Albanians have to prove their case and not just talk about it endlessly. Both sides lost people and both sides had civilians killed.
What can Albanians possibly bring to the table regarding emotions that Serbs can't?
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009 14:54)
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case?
Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
Oh, I'm quite sure Mr. Hysterical is absolutely convinvced his arguments for Kosovo's sovereignty are solid. But then again, his government has been absolutely certain of a lot of things that have ended up being something entirely different. I look forward to seeing what emotional and normative beliefs will be presented as empirical arguments.
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
No its just the argument of somebody that barely knows were or what is Kosova.
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
I feel not threatened therefore argue that comments are unnecessary and out of place if not wait just a few more days to learn the final opinion of the court.
P.S. Remember the number of countries participating and which sides are they taking. Also who is the representative of Kosovo. I choose to wait and see.
I would expect the Court to look into the history of Kosova/o's conflict, all aspects including the historical right of "ownership" of Kosova/a.
Of course one of the issues will be the legality of Serbia's attack on Kosova and ethnic cleansing of Kosovo/a. I expect the the Court to look into proportionality, how the Serbian government removed the autonomy of Kosova whether that was legitimate and also whether Kosova was a sui generis case. The Court will look into efforts made by the UN special envoy to reach a compromise solution to the conflict, how Kosovo/a and Serbia delegations approached to the talks mediated by president Ahtisari. The Court also look into how Koshtunica governmen changed the Serbian constitution regarding Kosova while the international negotiations were taking place.
At the end I expect that the Court will say "If a country exercises terror towards its "own people" it risks losing these people and the territory where they leave in". With that conclusion the Kosova and Serbia will be happy))))
Strong evidence? Yes if that includes: kidnappings of Serbs then torturing them, cutting out their organs while they were still alive, murder of civillians + police, terrorist attacks, planting bombs at cafes. Yes that's real strong case you got there...
Albanians colonized KosMet in the Ottoman era by expelling Serbs, the Serbian name & toponyms of Kosmet & the Decani Charter & first Turkish census prove Albanians are new, along with post-medieval chronicles attesting cleansing of Serbs, so I cant imagine what credible case Albanians can make. Their ICJ humiliation will be fun to watch.
stupid. there is no "Kosovo and Serbia" in a battle.
Kosovo is a province of Serbia, nothing else.
and don´t fool yourselves if you really believe that the temporary occupation of southern Serbia will last " for ever" as one sweet albanian kid wrote a few days ago.
liberation will be much faster than the one from the ottoman occupiers.
much faster.
...and all the decent and law-obiding K-albanians will see that it is better to live in a real state, than in a crippled puppet entity serving US-imperialist interests.
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
I suggest the albanian side show some evidence of the hundreds of artefacts not found from the immaginary illyrian era to support your claim to this territory.
It will be interesting to hear what excuse the albanians use to justify trying to steal Serbian land. Albanians will need more than good lawyers not to embarrass themselves.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009, 14:54)
LOL yet you are here every day posting on topics before anyone else
The process before the International Court of Justice regarding the legality of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral proclaimation of independence has been one of the main topics in the Kosovo media in recent days.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
Albanians colonized KosMet in the Ottoman era by expelling Serbs, the Serbian name & toponyms of Kosmet & the Decani Charter & first Turkish census prove Albanians are new, along with post-medieval chronicles attesting cleansing of Serbs, so I cant imagine what credible case Albanians can make. Their ICJ humiliation will be fun to watch.
I suggest the albanian side show some evidence of the hundreds of artefacts not found from the immaginary illyrian era to support your claim to this territory.
It will be interesting to hear what excuse the albanians use to justify trying to steal Serbian land. Albanians will need more than good lawyers not to embarrass themselves.
Strong evidence? Yes if that includes: kidnappings of Serbs then torturing them, cutting out their organs while they were still alive, murder of civillians + police, terrorist attacks, planting bombs at cafes. Yes that's real strong case you got there...
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009, 14:54)
LOL yet you are here every day posting on topics before anyone else
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
stupid. there is no "Kosovo and Serbia" in a battle.
Kosovo is a province of Serbia, nothing else.
and don´t fool yourselves if you really believe that the temporary occupation of southern Serbia will last " for ever" as one sweet albanian kid wrote a few days ago.
liberation will be much faster than the one from the ottoman occupiers.
much faster.
...and all the decent and law-obiding K-albanians will see that it is better to live in a real state, than in a crippled puppet entity serving US-imperialist interests.
I would expect the Court to look into the history of Kosova/o's conflict, all aspects including the historical right of "ownership" of Kosova/a.
Of course one of the issues will be the legality of Serbia's attack on Kosova and ethnic cleansing of Kosovo/a. I expect the the Court to look into proportionality, how the Serbian government removed the autonomy of Kosova whether that was legitimate and also whether Kosova was a sui generis case. The Court will look into efforts made by the UN special envoy to reach a compromise solution to the conflict, how Kosovo/a and Serbia delegations approached to the talks mediated by president Ahtisari. The Court also look into how Koshtunica governmen changed the Serbian constitution regarding Kosova while the international negotiations were taking place.
At the end I expect that the Court will say "If a country exercises terror towards its "own people" it risks losing these people and the territory where they leave in". With that conclusion the Kosova and Serbia will be happy))))
The process before the International Court of Justice regarding the legality of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral proclaimation of independence has been one of the main topics in the Kosovo media in recent days.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
Oh, I'm quite sure Mr. Hysterical is absolutely convinvced his arguments for Kosovo's sovereignty are solid. But then again, his government has been absolutely certain of a lot of things that have ended up being something entirely different. I look forward to seeing what emotional and normative beliefs will be presented as empirical arguments.
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
No its just the argument of somebody that barely knows were or what is Kosova.
Your 'strong arguments for independence' are absolutely phony when juxtaposed with Serbian definition of it:
'ethnically motivated secession'.
You will have to explain how is your 'independence' other than just - ethnically motivated secession,unilaterally declared.
can't wait to see the outcome of the trial.
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009 14:54)
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
I feel not threatened therefore argue that comments are unnecessary and out of place if not wait just a few more days to learn the final opinion of the court.
P.S. Remember the number of countries participating and which sides are they taking. Also who is the representative of Kosovo. I choose to wait and see.
Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case?
Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
If emotion does come into it, then the Serbs have a lot to tell as well. Decades of being terrorised.
Albanians have to prove their case and not just talk about it endlessly. Both sides lost people and both sides had civilians killed.
What can Albanians possibly bring to the table regarding emotions that Serbs can't?
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
(aRTa, 29 November 2009 15:00)
Oh Yes - K-Albanians had autonomy. And probably to much autonomy, because autonomous albanian government discriminated K-Serbs and organized anti-state riots (eg. 1981).
“Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case? Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
(Mister, 29 November 2009 18:59)”
The legal case is that Kosovo under the Yugoslav constitution (ie, before it was abrogated by Milosevic in 1989) did not merely have “autonomy within the Serbian republic” as is widely and simplistically argued. Rather, its constitutional status was “more than autonomy, less than full republic.” For example, it had all the attributes of a republic which did not apply to mere “autonomous” regions, such as its own central bank and territorial defense unit, and in addition was a constituent unit (in the constitution) of the Yugoslav federation in its own right, directly, not via Serbia, having its own representative on the 8-person federal presidency, who also had a turn as president on a rotational basis equal to those of full republics. Being also “autonomous within Serbia” as well was largely a formality, except for the brutal occupation from 1981 onwards by the Serbian-dominated Yugoslav armed forces.
What this special status means is that when Yugoslavia ceased to exist, a very good argument can be made that Kosovo had the same right to self-determination as other republics, because to become a mere autonomous province of Serbia (now that Yugoslavia had gone) would be a downgrading of its status. Of course it could also be argued that this special status, being not that of a full republic, meant that when Yugoslavia fell apart, Kosovo should have something like “more than autonomy, less than independence.” What this COULD have meant in practice in 1991-99 is that Kosovo could have become the third republic along with Serbia and Montenegro in the “New Yugoslavia,” ie, less than independence. But of course, that never happened; not even Kosovo’s constitutional autonomy was restored, on the contrary, the repression and apartheid were entrenched. That’s because “new Yugoslavia” was of course nothing of the sort; it was merely a cover for Greater Serbia.
In that context, the events of 1999 – as you put it, “the issues surrounding the regime in 1999” – would strongly swing the argument in favour of full independence.
Of course, the Albanian leadership could do itself a favour if it offered to the K Serbs what Slobo never offered them: for Kosovo to be a bi-national federation of the Albanian and Serb people, but completely independent without the “supervised” baby status.
Kosovo was already with Serbia and the world saw what happened to them.
now it's time for them to be free.
I think we might have another ICJ ruling on Vojvodina very soon.
The only change in the world after the ruling will be a flood of comments in this column probably outlining how corrupt the ICJ is!
But then we have already had most of them preliminarily in anticipation of a verdict haven't we.
The evidence will be in the form of readings of the entrails of a chicken slaughtered over a huge caldron containing wing of bat and eye of nute bubbling over a fire.
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 23:49)
You are talking about private property which has nothing to do with borders of a country.
So by your reasoning Hispanic neighbourhoods in the US can proclaim independence due to them owning so much private property.
Nice argument for the independence of RS or even Krajina. Krajina was autonomous for centuries, WAY longer than the couple of years Kosovo was.
You also have to look at the reasoning behind Kosovo’s autonomy. Why did Kosovo and Vojvodina get autonomous regions under Tito, but RS and Krajina did not?
Is the reality that Kosovo’s autonomy was based solely on the racist policies of Tito designed to erode the democratic rights of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia?
So DimTuc, either you have the rights for ALL ethnicities to live in their own country and we need a complete make over of the borders, or you are for keeping the borders the way they are and try to keep consistent with the earlier reasoning for the independence of Croatia & Bosnia, but not Krajina or RS.
By the way, since you seem to be misunderstand the constitution. Croatia & Bosnia did have a right under the Yugoslav Constitution to succeed, Kosovo and Vojvodina did not.
As far as the Albanian population being abused by the Serbian government. That is indeed horrible, but again, the Serbian people suffered ethnic cleansing and murder until KLA rule too.
So Dim Tuc
Why one rule for Serbians and one different rule for everyone else in the Balkans?
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
(The Swiss, 29 November 2009 20:40)
Actually is the other way around. Serbia is putting so much effort and wasting a lot of money trying to proove Kosova is wrong.
It makes me laugh how the Serbs keep calling Kosova a Serb province, yeah right... just like they kept on calling Krajina a part of Serbia. Realistically speaking Kosova will never ever return under Serb rule. Ethnic minorities in Serbia who were once forced to obey the 'Communist Corpoarte Fat Cats' in Beograd have had enough and want out. Even the Hungarians in Vojvodina are sick to death with the hidden form of hatred Serbia currently practices towards it;s minorities.
There is very strong evidence AGAINST supporting Kosovo independence. Kosovo shows no sign of allowing the Serbs to rebuilt their destroyed churches and destroyed monasteries. Even though hundreds of mosques have been built over the ruins of these destroyed sites, new churches and monasteries can be built somewhere else on government acquired land or land seized by the government from eminent domain. Before the ethnic ALbanians talk of independence, let the Serbs have their newly constructed churches and monasteries, which can be done through Serbian financial expense and Serbian volunteer effort. May the Christian God personally deal with those Kosovars who block efforts of the Serbs to have their churches and monasteries back.
I asked the question and DimTuc was good enough to provide his answer. Personally, I don't think that works because it doesn't sit with the "special case" argument. Nor does it sit well with the European Commission's position on international law as construed in the early 90's when considering various issues in Yugoslavia.
As for demographics being the key - well that really would set a dangerous precedent.
The only argument I see in Kosovo's favour is 10 years has passed. But even that is a problem because 10 years has also passed in Serbia.
that's not what I said, nor did I use that argument for the pro - independence ideology. Please go read the first comment, then read my comment. Thanks.
Vlao, we know what was like life of Serbs in south Metohija (N.Albania) and Serbs in Kosmet now. I strongly believe it is perfect moment for them to ask independence. Will you answer me on this?
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
Albanians colonized KosMet in the Ottoman era by expelling Serbs, the Serbian name & toponyms of Kosmet & the Decani Charter & first Turkish census prove Albanians are new, along with post-medieval chronicles attesting cleansing of Serbs, so I cant imagine what credible case Albanians can make. Their ICJ humiliation will be fun to watch.
The process before the International Court of Justice regarding the legality of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral proclaimation of independence has been one of the main topics in the Kosovo media in recent days.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
stupid. there is no "Kosovo and Serbia" in a battle.
Kosovo is a province of Serbia, nothing else.
and don´t fool yourselves if you really believe that the temporary occupation of southern Serbia will last " for ever" as one sweet albanian kid wrote a few days ago.
liberation will be much faster than the one from the ottoman occupiers.
much faster.
...and all the decent and law-obiding K-albanians will see that it is better to live in a real state, than in a crippled puppet entity serving US-imperialist interests.
Strong evidence? Yes if that includes: kidnappings of Serbs then torturing them, cutting out their organs while they were still alive, murder of civillians + police, terrorist attacks, planting bombs at cafes. Yes that's real strong case you got there...
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
I would expect the Court to look into the history of Kosova/o's conflict, all aspects including the historical right of "ownership" of Kosova/a.
Of course one of the issues will be the legality of Serbia's attack on Kosova and ethnic cleansing of Kosovo/a. I expect the the Court to look into proportionality, how the Serbian government removed the autonomy of Kosova whether that was legitimate and also whether Kosova was a sui generis case. The Court will look into efforts made by the UN special envoy to reach a compromise solution to the conflict, how Kosovo/a and Serbia delegations approached to the talks mediated by president Ahtisari. The Court also look into how Koshtunica governmen changed the Serbian constitution regarding Kosova while the international negotiations were taking place.
At the end I expect that the Court will say "If a country exercises terror towards its "own people" it risks losing these people and the territory where they leave in". With that conclusion the Kosova and Serbia will be happy))))
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
No its just the argument of somebody that barely knows were or what is Kosova.
I suggest the albanian side show some evidence of the hundreds of artefacts not found from the immaginary illyrian era to support your claim to this territory.
It will be interesting to hear what excuse the albanians use to justify trying to steal Serbian land. Albanians will need more than good lawyers not to embarrass themselves.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009, 14:54)
LOL yet you are here every day posting on topics before anyone else
If I rent my house to some Albanians for many, many years and then later we get into a dispute because the renters won’t pay their bills and they are constantly provoking me and I beat them up one day and the police break it up. A few weeks later my renters proclaim my house to be their own because I beat them up so then we go to court? Could I lose? I think not.
This is the Albanian argument for stealing someone’s land?
(Canadian, 29 November 2009 17:22)
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
Oh, I'm quite sure Mr. Hysterical is absolutely convinvced his arguments for Kosovo's sovereignty are solid. But then again, his government has been absolutely certain of a lot of things that have ended up being something entirely different. I look forward to seeing what emotional and normative beliefs will be presented as empirical arguments.
I feel not threatened therefore argue that comments are unnecessary and out of place if not wait just a few more days to learn the final opinion of the court.
P.S. Remember the number of countries participating and which sides are they taking. Also who is the representative of Kosovo. I choose to wait and see.
If emotion does come into it, then the Serbs have a lot to tell as well. Decades of being terrorised.
Albanians have to prove their case and not just talk about it endlessly. Both sides lost people and both sides had civilians killed.
What can Albanians possibly bring to the table regarding emotions that Serbs can't?
Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case?
Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
The only change in the world after the ruling will be a flood of comments in this column probably outlining how corrupt the ICJ is!
But then we have already had most of them preliminarily in anticipation of a verdict haven't we.
All the land and houses occupied by non-Serbs (95% of the population) is owned by those people. Nothing is "stolen", only a serb would claim that a 5% minority owns 100% of the property.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 23:49)
You are talking about private property which has nothing to do with borders of a country.
So by your reasoning Hispanic neighbourhoods in the US can proclaim independence due to them owning so much private property.
Kosovo was already with Serbia and the world saw what happened to them.
now it's time for them to be free.
I think we might have another ICJ ruling on Vojvodina very soon.
Your 'strong arguments for independence' are absolutely phony when juxtaposed with Serbian definition of it:
'ethnically motivated secession'.
You will have to explain how is your 'independence' other than just - ethnically motivated secession,unilaterally declared.
can't wait to see the outcome of the trial.
Usually minorities are entitled to autonomy and that's good enough for Int Law. But Kosova already had autonomy once under Serbia and we know what happened.
(aRTa, 29 November 2009 15:00)
Oh Yes - K-Albanians had autonomy. And probably to much autonomy, because autonomous albanian government discriminated K-Serbs and organized anti-state riots (eg. 1981).
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
(The Swiss, 29 November 2009 20:40)
Actually is the other way around. Serbia is putting so much effort and wasting a lot of money trying to proove Kosova is wrong.
“Given that the principle applied in almost all previous cases has been of the sanctity of borders and given that through the arbitration process regarding the rest of the ex Yugo that was applied to the former republics what is Kosovo's legal case? Of course there is the issues surrounding the regime in 1999. That aside, what is the legal argument?
(Mister, 29 November 2009 18:59)”
The legal case is that Kosovo under the Yugoslav constitution (ie, before it was abrogated by Milosevic in 1989) did not merely have “autonomy within the Serbian republic” as is widely and simplistically argued. Rather, its constitutional status was “more than autonomy, less than full republic.” For example, it had all the attributes of a republic which did not apply to mere “autonomous” regions, such as its own central bank and territorial defense unit, and in addition was a constituent unit (in the constitution) of the Yugoslav federation in its own right, directly, not via Serbia, having its own representative on the 8-person federal presidency, who also had a turn as president on a rotational basis equal to those of full republics. Being also “autonomous within Serbia” as well was largely a formality, except for the brutal occupation from 1981 onwards by the Serbian-dominated Yugoslav armed forces.
What this special status means is that when Yugoslavia ceased to exist, a very good argument can be made that Kosovo had the same right to self-determination as other republics, because to become a mere autonomous province of Serbia (now that Yugoslavia had gone) would be a downgrading of its status. Of course it could also be argued that this special status, being not that of a full republic, meant that when Yugoslavia fell apart, Kosovo should have something like “more than autonomy, less than independence.” What this COULD have meant in practice in 1991-99 is that Kosovo could have become the third republic along with Serbia and Montenegro in the “New Yugoslavia,” ie, less than independence. But of course, that never happened; not even Kosovo’s constitutional autonomy was restored, on the contrary, the repression and apartheid were entrenched. That’s because “new Yugoslavia” was of course nothing of the sort; it was merely a cover for Greater Serbia.
In that context, the events of 1999 – as you put it, “the issues surrounding the regime in 1999” – would strongly swing the argument in favour of full independence.
Of course, the Albanian leadership could do itself a favour if it offered to the K Serbs what Slobo never offered them: for Kosovo to be a bi-national federation of the Albanian and Serb people, but completely independent without the “supervised” baby status.
This issue has been main topic in Serb media from day one when Serbia asked ICJ for its opinion. You walk the streets of Kosova and ask people, and I can assure you that no one even cares.
(Kosova-USA, 29 November 2009 14:54)
But apparently if makes you a bit nervous considering how much effort you put in trying to prove that Serbia is wrong.... you really should take a break!
It makes me laugh how the Serbs keep calling Kosova a Serb province, yeah right... just like they kept on calling Krajina a part of Serbia. Realistically speaking Kosova will never ever return under Serb rule. Ethnic minorities in Serbia who were once forced to obey the 'Communist Corpoarte Fat Cats' in Beograd have had enough and want out. Even the Hungarians in Vojvodina are sick to death with the hidden form of hatred Serbia currently practices towards it;s minorities.
Vlao, we know what was like life of Serbs in south Metohija (N.Albania) and Serbs in Kosmet now. I strongly believe it is perfect moment for them to ask independence. Will you answer me on this?
The evidence will be in the form of readings of the entrails of a chicken slaughtered over a huge caldron containing wing of bat and eye of nute bubbling over a fire.
Nice argument for the independence of RS or even Krajina. Krajina was autonomous for centuries, WAY longer than the couple of years Kosovo was.
You also have to look at the reasoning behind Kosovo’s autonomy. Why did Kosovo and Vojvodina get autonomous regions under Tito, but RS and Krajina did not?
Is the reality that Kosovo’s autonomy was based solely on the racist policies of Tito designed to erode the democratic rights of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia?
So DimTuc, either you have the rights for ALL ethnicities to live in their own country and we need a complete make over of the borders, or you are for keeping the borders the way they are and try to keep consistent with the earlier reasoning for the independence of Croatia & Bosnia, but not Krajina or RS.
By the way, since you seem to be misunderstand the constitution. Croatia & Bosnia did have a right under the Yugoslav Constitution to succeed, Kosovo and Vojvodina did not.
As far as the Albanian population being abused by the Serbian government. That is indeed horrible, but again, the Serbian people suffered ethnic cleansing and murder until KLA rule too.
So Dim Tuc
Why one rule for Serbians and one different rule for everyone else in the Balkans?
There is very strong evidence AGAINST supporting Kosovo independence. Kosovo shows no sign of allowing the Serbs to rebuilt their destroyed churches and destroyed monasteries. Even though hundreds of mosques have been built over the ruins of these destroyed sites, new churches and monasteries can be built somewhere else on government acquired land or land seized by the government from eminent domain. Before the ethnic ALbanians talk of independence, let the Serbs have their newly constructed churches and monasteries, which can be done through Serbian financial expense and Serbian volunteer effort. May the Christian God personally deal with those Kosovars who block efforts of the Serbs to have their churches and monasteries back.
I asked the question and DimTuc was good enough to provide his answer. Personally, I don't think that works because it doesn't sit with the "special case" argument. Nor does it sit well with the European Commission's position on international law as construed in the early 90's when considering various issues in Yugoslavia.
As for demographics being the key - well that really would set a dangerous precedent.
The only argument I see in Kosovo's favour is 10 years has passed. But even that is a problem because 10 years has also passed in Serbia.
that's not what I said, nor did I use that argument for the pro - independence ideology. Please go read the first comment, then read my comment. Thanks.
IMAGE SOURCE
34 Komentari
Sortiraj po: