“Enable Belgrade to solve Kosovo problem”

Germany is the problem here, no mistake there. Russia, India & China all side with Serbia and are lobbying for a peaceful solution which protects the territorial integrity of Serbia. Germany, on the other hand is still following a WWII agenda in the region, they have much blood on their hands.

“As far as Kosovo is concerned, I do not see a solution yet” Hoyer said.
--
Well, it looks like some people are finally realising that nothing more can be achieved than what Serbia is offering.

More than autonomy, less than independence is self-fulfilling. Time to negotiate peace and prosperity for all I think. Albanian self-rule while maintaining Serbian sovereignty, like it is now.

Hmmm..... Hoyer wants Belgrade to "solve the Kosovo problem"? Knowing the state he represents, I'm not exactly sure he'd be all that happy with the ways Belgrade has in mind of "solving the Kosovo problem", particularly in partnership with Russia. Methinks a major conflict of interest is on the horizon, or Germany is about to declare a major reversal in its foreign policy?

partnership with Russia. Methinks a major conflict of interest is on the horizon, or Germany is about to declare a major reversal in its foreign policy?
(Mike, 28 November 2009 17:56)

Remember the BND story, if some knows what is really happening down there it's them, so yes, you might be right, some policy shifting is pointing in the horizon...

More than autonomy, less than independence is self-fulfilling. Time to negotiate peace and prosperity for all I think. Albanian self-rule while maintaining Serbian sovereignty, like it is now.
(Zoran, 28 November 2009 18:37)
I have asked this many times and I have never seen an answer, Exactly what is Serbia's concept of more than autonomy less than independence??
What is the incentive for Kosovo to return to the negotiating table with this offer.
Does it mean a seat at the UN? NO
Does it mean membership in sports associations separate from Serbia? NO
Does it mean the ability to negotiate and have relationships, make deals with foreign powers without Serbian direction?
Does it mean the ability to receive foreign aid and investments without first having the money pass through Serbian hands where it might either be skimmed or redirected?
Exactly what is it that Serbia is offering Kosovo that they do not at this point possess, that would encourage a return to the negotiation table?

Oh Serbia already tried to "solve the Kosova(o) problem" 10 years ago and the result was 12.000 dead and 800.000 deported Albanians. Thanks but not thanks. Kosovars have in mean time solved the problem. Newsflash my German friend: Kosova(o) is today independent and recognised by 63 countries of the world including your own country.

pss, nobody knows exactly what ethnic Albanians will end up with but you will get a chance to finalise status and get on the path to peace and prosperity otherwise you'll end up with the status quo like now. There is no future in that I'm afraid.

I think Serbia (along with Russia) carefully considered what you can get and what you can't. You are not going to achieve independence now or ever and it is not going to be offered, however, if ethnic Albanians want to seriously negotiate then I'm sure we can come up with something acceptable.

In the case of Hong Kong, China just wants to say it's theirs while in reality it has a high level of freedom. This model was already offered and I'm sure there are many others but unless you seriously sit down and negotiate nothing will happen.

Tell me, what do you have now that Serbia is not prepared to offer? Vojvodina may soon have the ability to negotiate with foreign powers. You won't get a seat in the UN but perhaps in the EU. Sports associations, why not? Scotland, Wales, England, etc... are in sports associations (football, rugby, etc..) but are represented as one (UK) in the Olympics.

There are many models, pick and choose what suits but I can tell you now - you will never legitimately become independent although you can achieve a high level of self-rule.

Zoran, I think most of the west could have supported your offers if there had been some of that at the table when it was open. However, it was not, the phrase "more than autonomy but less than independence" did not come around until all negotiations had been halted. That is why no one ever really investigated what Serbia meant.
However, today, I do not think it will satisfy anyone.
Today to get western support their would have to be something more substantiative such as what the troika suggested which was a type of confederation with equal powers. But I do not think you could get Albanian support.
It is interesting to note Tadic's interview today where he says a different approach is needed to deal with Kosovo.
http://www.examiner.com/x-27426-Volusia-County-Foreign-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d28-Serb-President-states-new-approach-needed-for-Kosovo
When I first went to Kosovo in 2006, I thought the only way for success was to reintegrate Kosovo into Serbia, but it did not take long to convince me that was impossible. First the denial that the 90's even took place and then the attitude that anything the Albanians were to get would be an undeserving "gift" from their superiors.
I felt that anything offered was only meant temporarily until Serbia could get the international community out the door. A feeling reinforced daily by posts here.

here u go again.
Nationalists make me sick.

Germany is simply telling Serbs and the EU that Serbia needs to free itself from Kosovo and accept the reality - the ways have to be found!
The hint is to condition its membership in the EU.

pss, no one fully controls Kosovo and the land is split so this idea of "integrating" or "reintegrating" Kosovo with Serbia is not going to work. What does that mean anyway?

Serbians there want to stay integrated but I don't think anyone expects ethnic Albanians to integrate into Serbian structures. Not Serbians nor ethnic Albanians.

They can run their own areas and even those in the Presevo valley, but Serbia has to keep its sovereignty.

I personally don't think it's a big issue as some make it out to be. The Albanians will have as much freedom as needed (probably even more than now) but they won't get more unless they negotiate.

I hope the EU and US are waking up and will start being a little more realistic.

Hoyer should shut up and just make sure that Germany keeps writing checks to subsidize the Albanian Kosovo that they are trying to create. German tax dollars at work. If anything, it is up to Germany to retract their recognition.

I personally don't think it's a big issue as some make it out to be. The Albanians will have as much freedom as needed (probably even more than now) but they won't get more unless they negotiate. --Zoran

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.

Kosovo has a solution already my friends,are you expecting more than 2 million albanians to give up their freedom won with lives of thausands people and thausends more missing.
nevertheles Germany nor EU does not want another flux of albanian emigrants in their countries because no matter how long we stayed there we did not asymilate just what serbia was trying to make us do.
anyway I have my freedom and I dont give a.. for UN seat.
reather be poor and free!

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 04:33)

Nobody is going to shoot you. The base is there to protect all citizens of Serbia and that includes you as well.

Don't start any terrorist activities and nobody will even glance at you.

Zoran,

What you are proposing here it makes sense maybe 10 years ago or even 5, nothing like this will satisfy Albanians and as long as you dont get them on board this wont work.

One has to come to this forum and understand why they wont budge.

EU&US wont let new war happen as this is what will happen if people of Kosovo are told they will be under Serbia.

I know people mask the reality what did happen during the war but I assure you it was horrific and not 1 person who is Albanina will trust Serbia.

People did really suffer both Serbs after the war and Albaninas since 1989 when they lost all the rights, who would guarantee them that radicals in 20 years wont take power and repeat process.

My opinion would be as follows. North parts populated by Serbs go under Serbia some Area exchange from Serbia as well the Serb areas in other secluded from the border with Serbia like Brezovica etc would have to be compensated it would involve some pain moving people but its only solution for both to be happy.

And in time it will come in to this negotiation for this part of territory not all Kosovo.

Kosovar said:

"Kosovo has a solution already my friends,are you expecting more than 2 million albanians to give up their freedom won with lives of thausands people and thausends more missing."

What freedom did you not have being part of Serbia?

Please do tell us what was happening to K-Albanians before you provoked the war in Kosovo? I would like to hear if you were being beaten, kicked out of your jobs or not allowed education of healthcare because you were Albanian.
Were you not allowed to speak in Albanian?

Please do tell us here. What was so bad that you had to start terrorising and murdering the police which provoked a reaction from Belgrade?

I agree with pss with that Serbia should've made it's last offer right in the beginning. What does negotiation mean when you are not sincere in the first place. In my opinion they wanted just the land devoid of the majority of people. They never stated what Albanians would be within the country and how the autonomy and their rights would be guaranteed in the future. Self rule is nothing if interferences occur from up top and when foreign monitors leave eventually, old habits assume. What can Kosovo gain from Serbia in which it doesn't have at this time? When can be offered to overcome and contradict the independence? It is doing more than the autonomy would permit. And most importantly ability to receive foreign aid and investments without first having the money pass through Serbian hands is key.

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 04:33)

The message is still not getting through. EULEX on one side; Serbians tanks on another and all pointed at the Albanians.

as an african working in kosovo all i see in this region is hatred for one another,unlike africa we have bad leaders.the balkans is very much like africa no way forword.the west should just forget about the balkans.this region and africa can make a good pair hatred and bad leaders.

There is something profoundly disturbing about statements from a German politician on issues in the Balkans particularly when you take into account their involvement during WW11. However, Werner Hoyer the answer is no, Serbia will not give up Kosovo to make your life easier. I suggest that you keep your head down and ask for forgiveness considering the dreadful past that your country carries and the many lives that have been lost in the past at the hands of your fellow Germans.
Serbia does not interfere in your lives then don’t in ours.

The hint is to condition its membership in the EU.
(Gojko, 29 November 2009 13:19)

erm, while this statement does mean that they hope serbia will forget kosovo it also means they realised that no serbian government is able to recognise kosovo and that sticks aren't going to work. they will try it with plenty of carrots, but my guess is that it's not going to work either, at least for the time being. i think the west now expects belgrade to live with the fact that it has no control over kosovo without expecting it to recognise it. this is indeed becoming a parody of "more than autonomy, less than independence" that serbian side had proposed in the negotiations. the hint is that they expect serbia to be pragmatic, but recognising kosovo is not going to be a condition for anything.

“As far as Kosovo is concerned, I do not see a solution yet” Hoyer said.
--
Well, it looks like some people are finally realising that nothing more can be achieved than what Serbia is offering.

More than autonomy, less than independence is self-fulfilling. Time to negotiate peace and prosperity for all I think. Albanian self-rule while maintaining Serbian sovereignty, like it is now.

Germany is the problem here, no mistake there. Russia, India & China all side with Serbia and are lobbying for a peaceful solution which protects the territorial integrity of Serbia. Germany, on the other hand is still following a WWII agenda in the region, they have much blood on their hands.

More than autonomy, less than independence is self-fulfilling. Time to negotiate peace and prosperity for all I think. Albanian self-rule while maintaining Serbian sovereignty, like it is now.
(Zoran, 28 November 2009 18:37)
I have asked this many times and I have never seen an answer, Exactly what is Serbia's concept of more than autonomy less than independence??
What is the incentive for Kosovo to return to the negotiating table with this offer.
Does it mean a seat at the UN? NO
Does it mean membership in sports associations separate from Serbia? NO
Does it mean the ability to negotiate and have relationships, make deals with foreign powers without Serbian direction?
Does it mean the ability to receive foreign aid and investments without first having the money pass through Serbian hands where it might either be skimmed or redirected?
Exactly what is it that Serbia is offering Kosovo that they do not at this point possess, that would encourage a return to the negotiation table?

Oh Serbia already tried to "solve the Kosova(o) problem" 10 years ago and the result was 12.000 dead and 800.000 deported Albanians. Thanks but not thanks. Kosovars have in mean time solved the problem. Newsflash my German friend: Kosova(o) is today independent and recognised by 63 countries of the world including your own country.

Zoran, I think most of the west could have supported your offers if there had been some of that at the table when it was open. However, it was not, the phrase "more than autonomy but less than independence" did not come around until all negotiations had been halted. That is why no one ever really investigated what Serbia meant.
However, today, I do not think it will satisfy anyone.
Today to get western support their would have to be something more substantiative such as what the troika suggested which was a type of confederation with equal powers. But I do not think you could get Albanian support.
It is interesting to note Tadic's interview today where he says a different approach is needed to deal with Kosovo.
http://www.examiner.com/x-27426-Volusia-County-Foreign-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d28-Serb-President-states-new-approach-needed-for-Kosovo
When I first went to Kosovo in 2006, I thought the only way for success was to reintegrate Kosovo into Serbia, but it did not take long to convince me that was impossible. First the denial that the 90's even took place and then the attitude that anything the Albanians were to get would be an undeserving "gift" from their superiors.
I felt that anything offered was only meant temporarily until Serbia could get the international community out the door. A feeling reinforced daily by posts here.

Hmmm..... Hoyer wants Belgrade to "solve the Kosovo problem"? Knowing the state he represents, I'm not exactly sure he'd be all that happy with the ways Belgrade has in mind of "solving the Kosovo problem", particularly in partnership with Russia. Methinks a major conflict of interest is on the horizon, or Germany is about to declare a major reversal in its foreign policy?

Hoyer should shut up and just make sure that Germany keeps writing checks to subsidize the Albanian Kosovo that they are trying to create. German tax dollars at work. If anything, it is up to Germany to retract their recognition.

pss, nobody knows exactly what ethnic Albanians will end up with but you will get a chance to finalise status and get on the path to peace and prosperity otherwise you'll end up with the status quo like now. There is no future in that I'm afraid.

I think Serbia (along with Russia) carefully considered what you can get and what you can't. You are not going to achieve independence now or ever and it is not going to be offered, however, if ethnic Albanians want to seriously negotiate then I'm sure we can come up with something acceptable.

In the case of Hong Kong, China just wants to say it's theirs while in reality it has a high level of freedom. This model was already offered and I'm sure there are many others but unless you seriously sit down and negotiate nothing will happen.

Tell me, what do you have now that Serbia is not prepared to offer? Vojvodina may soon have the ability to negotiate with foreign powers. You won't get a seat in the UN but perhaps in the EU. Sports associations, why not? Scotland, Wales, England, etc... are in sports associations (football, rugby, etc..) but are represented as one (UK) in the Olympics.

There are many models, pick and choose what suits but I can tell you now - you will never legitimately become independent although you can achieve a high level of self-rule.

I agree with pss with that Serbia should've made it's last offer right in the beginning. What does negotiation mean when you are not sincere in the first place. In my opinion they wanted just the land devoid of the majority of people. They never stated what Albanians would be within the country and how the autonomy and their rights would be guaranteed in the future. Self rule is nothing if interferences occur from up top and when foreign monitors leave eventually, old habits assume. What can Kosovo gain from Serbia in which it doesn't have at this time? When can be offered to overcome and contradict the independence? It is doing more than the autonomy would permit. And most importantly ability to receive foreign aid and investments without first having the money pass through Serbian hands is key.

partnership with Russia. Methinks a major conflict of interest is on the horizon, or Germany is about to declare a major reversal in its foreign policy?
(Mike, 28 November 2009 17:56)

Remember the BND story, if some knows what is really happening down there it's them, so yes, you might be right, some policy shifting is pointing in the horizon...

Zoran,

What you are proposing here it makes sense maybe 10 years ago or even 5, nothing like this will satisfy Albanians and as long as you dont get them on board this wont work.

One has to come to this forum and understand why they wont budge.

EU&US wont let new war happen as this is what will happen if people of Kosovo are told they will be under Serbia.

I know people mask the reality what did happen during the war but I assure you it was horrific and not 1 person who is Albanina will trust Serbia.

People did really suffer both Serbs after the war and Albaninas since 1989 when they lost all the rights, who would guarantee them that radicals in 20 years wont take power and repeat process.

My opinion would be as follows. North parts populated by Serbs go under Serbia some Area exchange from Serbia as well the Serb areas in other secluded from the border with Serbia like Brezovica etc would have to be compensated it would involve some pain moving people but its only solution for both to be happy.

And in time it will come in to this negotiation for this part of territory not all Kosovo.

pss, no one fully controls Kosovo and the land is split so this idea of "integrating" or "reintegrating" Kosovo with Serbia is not going to work. What does that mean anyway?

Serbians there want to stay integrated but I don't think anyone expects ethnic Albanians to integrate into Serbian structures. Not Serbians nor ethnic Albanians.

They can run their own areas and even those in the Presevo valley, but Serbia has to keep its sovereignty.

I personally don't think it's a big issue as some make it out to be. The Albanians will have as much freedom as needed (probably even more than now) but they won't get more unless they negotiate.

I hope the EU and US are waking up and will start being a little more realistic.

I personally don't think it's a big issue as some make it out to be. The Albanians will have as much freedom as needed (probably even more than now) but they won't get more unless they negotiate. --Zoran

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.

Kosovo has a solution already my friends,are you expecting more than 2 million albanians to give up their freedom won with lives of thausands people and thausends more missing.
nevertheles Germany nor EU does not want another flux of albanian emigrants in their countries because no matter how long we stayed there we did not asymilate just what serbia was trying to make us do.
anyway I have my freedom and I dont give a.. for UN seat.
reather be poor and free!

here u go again.
Nationalists make me sick.

Germany is simply telling Serbs and the EU that Serbia needs to free itself from Kosovo and accept the reality - the ways have to be found!
The hint is to condition its membership in the EU.

Kosovar said:

"Kosovo has a solution already my friends,are you expecting more than 2 million albanians to give up their freedom won with lives of thausands people and thausends more missing."

What freedom did you not have being part of Serbia?

Please do tell us what was happening to K-Albanians before you provoked the war in Kosovo? I would like to hear if you were being beaten, kicked out of your jobs or not allowed education of healthcare because you were Albanian.
Were you not allowed to speak in Albanian?

Please do tell us here. What was so bad that you had to start terrorising and murdering the police which provoked a reaction from Belgrade?

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 04:33)

Nobody is going to shoot you. The base is there to protect all citizens of Serbia and that includes you as well.

Don't start any terrorist activities and nobody will even glance at you.

as an african working in kosovo all i see in this region is hatred for one another,unlike africa we have bad leaders.the balkans is very much like africa no way forword.the west should just forget about the balkans.this region and africa can make a good pair hatred and bad leaders.

See this is a ridiculous statement. A counter argument is illustrated best by the example of a massive military base in the Presheva Valley --- the ethnic Albanians can't even have the freedom of movement without running into a tank or a Serbian "soldier" with a semi-automatic ready to shoot.
(KOSOVARi, 29 November 2009 04:33)

The message is still not getting through. EULEX on one side; Serbians tanks on another and all pointed at the Albanians.

The hint is to condition its membership in the EU.
(Gojko, 29 November 2009 13:19)

erm, while this statement does mean that they hope serbia will forget kosovo it also means they realised that no serbian government is able to recognise kosovo and that sticks aren't going to work. they will try it with plenty of carrots, but my guess is that it's not going to work either, at least for the time being. i think the west now expects belgrade to live with the fact that it has no control over kosovo without expecting it to recognise it. this is indeed becoming a parody of "more than autonomy, less than independence" that serbian side had proposed in the negotiations. the hint is that they expect serbia to be pragmatic, but recognising kosovo is not going to be a condition for anything.

There is something profoundly disturbing about statements from a German politician on issues in the Balkans particularly when you take into account their involvement during WW11. However, Werner Hoyer the answer is no, Serbia will not give up Kosovo to make your life easier. I suggest that you keep your head down and ask for forgiveness considering the dreadful past that your country carries and the many lives that have been lost in the past at the hands of your fellow Germans.
Serbia does not interfere in your lives then don’t in ours.