No UN seat for Kosovo "until Serbia gives up"

PRN - there's a difference between legitimacy and force. The situation is as it stands today not because there was genuine dialogue and an agreement, but because the US and EU decided that they needed Kosovo's coal reserves, to Serbia that Kosovo would be independent, then started to expand it's military bases in Kosovo.

Somehow I can't see peace lasting in the region in the next few years/decades with this "agreement", whether it be full scale war or constant skirmishing - and don't bank on the US and EU bailing you out and coming to your aid. They are highly stretched already and will be for decades. It may not be tomorrow, but in the future whether you like it or not, Kosovo will be under the direct control of Serbia again.

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

After seeing your credibility reduced to nothing after the 5 million Albanians in Turkey post, you have found a way to sink even lower with this one. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu then award him the "Gold Medal of Independence".

B92

Only a gold medal?
It will be more appropriate to erect another statue which
together with the Albanians' crude communist-style display of sycophancy will show what a pathetic "state" Kosovo is.

What's with all the medals and honorary degrees? Kosovo has no future because the Albanian Kosovars keep focusing on the past. Serbia, on the other hand keeps making new deals globally to strengthen her economy. For instance, the new truck manufacturing deal with China, the pipeline deal with Russia, auto manufacturing deals with Fiat, etc. Moreover, they have the energy to keep fighting for their country's territorial integrity. Kosovo's Albanians, on the other hand, wait for handouts, let the economy go to he**. What an interesting contrast. Thus, if Kosovo does stay sovereign, it will be nothing but a poor dependent state. Funny that some Albanian supporters laugh at Serbia's dealings with Nigeria. Kosovo could only wish it would ever be as successful a country as Nigeria.

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

So-called Ahtisaari plan have any legitimization, becouse was NOT ACCEPTED by Serbia and international community. This proalbanian pseudoplan is against serbian law and constitution.

PS. K-Serbs en masse BOYCOTTED this pseudoplan and their author.

"Kosovo will become a UN member when Serbia is ready to accept Kosovo's independence"

In other words Kosovo will never become a UN member. It will always be a failed American experiment. Just wait a few more years when the West gets even more tired of the albanians. Good thing Serbia has built a military base in Bujanovac. They will need it for what is to come.

I am glad the EU and US are babysitting these highly imaginative ethnic Albanians. I think it won't take long to realise what they've got themselves into. What then?

xythi - you couldn't be more correct. In those years, Kosovo will be gradually reintegrated into Serbia.

Welcome back.

This plan was never accepted by the UN. 1244 was. 1244 is still valid.

I would say: less talk about this plan, more talk about 1244.

Or can you refer to a contract never signed by all parties when you have an argument with your boss?

1244 is the legal basis for Kosovo. All sides should act based on it.

I don't see the merit of celebrating a plan that, even if implemented, would severely limit Pristina's authority to the point of impotency. And judging from the way in which history is taught in Albanian schools, I'm not exactly sure I'd want to receive an honorary anything from Pristina University.

DOesn't this whatever his name get a statue? Just an honorary doctorate- I wouldn't accept even if it is from such a prestigious university.

Russia as the safeguard of international law...
The West should be ashamed!

But let's not forget China. China will never accept illegal Kosovo independence.

Neither will Spain and the others in the EU.

Ergo: no UN and no EU for Kosovo.

But hey, it is a PROVINCE!

because Serbia just needs to negotiate with the US. The Albanians have NO say whatsoever in Kosovo.

The REALITY in Kosovo is that the Albanians are "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" dependents. They have to ask the US for permission for EVERYTHING - so much for a so called "sovereign Republic of Kosova" when you don't even make your own decisions.

So what will probably happen is that the US will pay off your corrupt politicians like Thaci, Haradinaj and the rest (they are all the same), and gradually the Serbian army will move back into Kosovo (probably in small numbers at first) and a deal will be done for extensive autonomy. Your "leaders" will tell you that there is a stalemate with no hope for economic progress and no hope for EU integration unless they do as they are told.

there will be a lot of unhappy albanians but in time the violence will subside and you will realise reality - the fact that you are an insignificant internaional military power (even regionally albanians are weak militarily - probably the weakest in the region along with the macedonians) and have no power to tell anyone what to do.

BUT, taking the Albanian view that the US will be their protector FOREVER, you will no doubt argue that you ARE independent and will ultimately join with Albania to form a greater albania.

Well, assume you will have the protection of the US and EU, and assume that everyone in the balkans joins the EU (even without a UN seat because of Russia and China). So Serbia, and Albania and "republic of Kosovoa" all play happy families but you'll still be second class citizens in the sense that you'll be told what you can and can't do. The Eu and US will NEVER allow "Kosova" to join with Albania. They know that any attempt to join both together will start a war with Serbia, so even though Albania is a NATO member, it's doing what it's master commands it to do.

Whichever outcome happens, I can almost guarantee that there will never be peace around kosovo, either the Serbs or Albanians will be unhappy with the outcome and as we all klnow what happens from history in the Balkans, it'll be a matter of time before one starts a fight with the other again.

Albert Rohan comes back to the scene of the crime to accept his medal from the terrorist Thaci. How touching.
It's interesting that an Austrian, Rohan, is one of main culprits responsible for the fake, illegal, and immoral 'state' of Kosovo. He is still upset about the destruction of his Austro-Hungarian empire, which Serbia had lots to do with, and rightly so.
Luckily, thanks to Russia, his attempt to steal sovereign Serbian land has failed miserably.
Cheers!!

"Over the past few years Kosovo's economy has shown significant progress in transitioning to a market-based system and maintaining macroeconomic stability, but it is still highly dependent on the international community and the diaspora for financial and technical assistance. Remittances from the diaspora - located mainly in Germany and Switzerland - are estimated to account for about 15% of GDP, and donor-financed activities and aid for another 15%. Kosovo's citizens are the poorest in Europe with an average annual per capita income of only $2,300. Unemployment, around 40% of the population, is a significant problem that encourages outward migration and black market activity"

(taken from the CIA world fact book, about the economy of Kosovo)

so much about the prospering economy of Kosovo.

"The so-called Ahtisaari plan"...wowww...again the- so-called

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.

"After seeing your credibility reduced to nothing after the 5 million Albanians in Turkey post, you have found a way to sink even lower with this one. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
(Jason, 24 November 2009 11:38)"

Jason,


And there are numerous other Albanian commentators like him that post their imagination here day after day. The Turks have to be careful. Within a few generations the Albanians in Turkey will have outnumbered their Turkey's hosts and then claim more land to be theirs. The Albanian big brothers (Turks) will be in for a big and unpleasant surprise. However, neither will be allowed into the EU, which by that time will be another dark mark on Europe's history.

Serbia will never give up on Kosovo. It's in their constitution, and church law.

One must really wonder if international officials going to Kosovo do more harm than good. According to additional statements made by Rohan:

1. Kosovo has no hope of getting into the UN "until Serbia gives up", which will be never.

2. Recognitions, by his own admonition, have trickled to a near-halt because of the ICJ, which will in turn provide a vague answer to Kosovo's future status, making any future recognitions unnecessary, and place Kosovo within the status of a parastate.

Yet for some strange reason, he either concludes his speech or begins it with a statement of Kosovo having a "bright future".

Either Sejdiu is that oblivious to realities, or Rohan just insulted the intelligence of the entire K Albanian leadership.

Ahtisaari plan will not exist within 5-7 years thats a FACT!

Mr. Rae, dont you realise that US 1244 has nothing to do with Serbia, all the time mentiones Yougoslavia, Yugoslavia ... Yugoslavia.
For some time now 1244 is in the same place where Yugoslavia is.

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.
(Olf, 25 November 2009 09:30)

wrong, wrong, wrong. Serbia is internationally recognised as the legal successor to Serbia -Montenegro who in turn is the legal successor to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Serbia inherited Yugoslavia's UN seat and its membership on international bodies. Montenegro like the rest of the ex Yugoslav republics had to apply for UN membership, Serbia did not. Resolution 1244 therefore applies to the Republic of Serbia of which the AP of Kosmet is an constituent part and Serbia has the right to assert its sovereignty over its territory that includes Kosmet.

Your argument simply wouldn't stand up in a court of law, never mind a kangaroo court filled with hopping mad jumping Skippys.

..and you even managed to spell Yugoslavia wrong in your rant 3 times. 'Yogoslavia', now is that up there with Dardania and La la Land in the imaginary places that fills your vacuous mind.

"Russia can veto Kosovo's UN membership, and this will go on until Serbia gives up," concluded the Austrian diplomat.
--
There you have it my dear citizens. Don't ever expect to join the UN! No UN, No Olympics, No FIFA and no independence. Spain has also confirmed never to recognise so forget about the EU.

You can start talking and negotiating if brave enough but I suspect your US protectors will not allow that otherwise Camp Bondsteel becomes vulnerable.

Wake up my dear citizens. Prosperity is achieved with negotiations and forming peace within the region. Stop living in your imaginary past, throw away the lies and start working towards a better future for all.

Maybe this is a right moment for Albanian commentators to mention again albanian science and stories about polar bears living KosMet.

We have chosen a better future, there is a saying better 1st in village than last in town.

...better than to be part of all those organisations and under Serbian rule.
(Bilbao, 24 November 2009 19:28)
--
Bilbao, the problem is you are both last in town and last in the village.

Here is a highly decorated person, one who holds the "Gold Medal of Independence" and has a doctorate from the University of Priština. This person is one of yours telling you straight in the face that you cannot become a member of the UN and therefore will never achieve independence.

You can keep dreaming at your own peril but it's not going to bring peace nor prosperity to our province and while we are at it, Serbia has absolutely no interest in ruling you.

I thank God the EU and US have taken it upon themselves to do that. You see, Serbia is offering self-rule and that extends to ethnic Albanians in Presevo.

Our greater interest is in preserving our territorial integrity, our loyal citizens plus religious and cultural heritage.

One day I hope our ethnic Albanian citizens realise the EU and US cannot provide any more than what Serbia is offering. This person may be the first of many to slowly reveal the truth.

good luck trying to pursue a serb or the orthodox church to "give up"...

If Serbia wants to get in EU it will happen. That's very simple.

Unless US can buy Russia off but for now that's far fetched with Putin and the state he runs.

22 of 27 have recognized Kosova so far, EU is stuck with Kosova so they pressure Serbia.

"Who said no UN no FIFA no EU look on the MAP and see country called ALBANIA.Kosova is a province of Albania and nothing else.If you really belive that Albanians want to be independent in Kosova than you have no clue of reality.All Albanians in one state.See the National team of Albania there are eight players from the province of KOSOVA playing for they national team of ALBANIA.See you in EU Serbia and Real Albania.
(Beni, 24 November 2009 19:54)"

I wonder if the UN knows that Kosovo is now a province of Albania as you claim. If there are eight players from Kosovo playing in the Albanian national team the UEFA should check if they actually have Albanian passports. If not Albania should be banned from international games for at least five years for having foreigners in its team (that is also international law). If they have Albanian passports it is probably because they were born in Albania and their families moved or fled to Kosovo (either legally or illegally). The reality is that there will NEVER be a unified (Greater) Albania. Forcefully creating that will lead to a new Balkan War and maybe worse.

Just bits and pieces, but I've done a bit of homework, let us see yours now...
(Mr Rae, 24 November 2009 23:21)

Mr Rae,

Excellent post supported with facts and logic. Do not expect the same from your less-than worthy adversary - everything he writes is lacking logic and facts, and is purely an emotional response.

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 10:47)

Got news for you chief. China owns a third of the US who in turn is bankrupt and has to rely on China who in turn relies on Russia for its natural resources. Its a vicious circle, yeah life's a bitch, cry me a river but China isn't neutral any more. Beijing like Moscow is seriously cheesed off at the Yanks and has called a halt to Washington's incestious whining, invading countries, causing wars and making all our lives a misery. Besides China has alot of interests tied up in Africa, Middle East, Afghanistan and dare i say it, Serbia.

I know its hard to take but closing your eyes, crossing you fingers and wishing hard while listening to Prince's "I'm gonna party on down like its 1999" isn't going to bring back the good old days.

The Serb Camp isn't making any sense. You keep trying to make up bogus lies about "hand-outs" when it is known that Serbia has borrowed more from EU/IMF/WB/EBRD in the last 18 months than Kosova has in 10 years.

Tell me this.

How is Serbia going to take Kosova back exactly?

Also,

if Serbia is so superior to Kosova then why is it economically downhill borrowing from all sides just to cover budget gaps? Yet at the same time Kosova with a 40% unemployment is doing very well. In fact, Kosova's budget grew this year by 6% to EUR 1,432,000,000. I predict in the next 3 years the GDP to grow by at least 4%.

This is called placing the church back into the middle of the village!
In other words 1244 is tightly glued onto kosovo's back and it certainly not this kind of medal collector that will be able to change the course of justice, to the contrary he is even putting another layer of glue by being so clear!!

I can understand the wish of k-a not to report to belgrade anymore, but sorry, this can't be done outside the prevailing intl laws.

There isn't any single reason why the kurds, the palestinians, the, the, the, the..., (the list is already too long) never had the same right. Licking the US boots doesn't give you all the rights, this guy's statement was just a reminder!!

He should be rewarded, the international community got it right in the Balkans this time by creating the A plan or road map to independence.

Intl. law masters, can you tell e which part of 1244 Serbia is obeying.
(Olf, 24 November 2009 21:36)

Translation pls....

Olf,
instead of me doing all the work for you, and listing case after case of where Serbia is following UN resolution 1244, I would rather you do some work for yourself and tell us where you think Serbia is failing?
Again, I haven't read every letter of he resolution at this time, yet the sections that I did read continued to affirm that Serbia is and has been behaving in accordance with US resolution 1244.
I'm all for open and honest dialog, but these comments from the cheap seats are either intended to ignite some angry passions in people, and start a pointless argument or you are truly and fully witless. I'd rather assume the former and not mark you as that because I hope that you are going to put some effort to defend you comments and you point of view.
NOTE:
This may be of subtle interest to you: (straight from US Resolution 1244)
4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;
May I ask what's Kosovo done to uphold it's part of the bargain?
These two pieces of the resolution could be interesting too:
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States
of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and
meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,
...

Just bits and pieces, but I've done a bit of homework, let us see yours now...

Olf,

Indeed, Serbia is the successor state of YU.
You may not like that, but that's the fact.

Mind that in 1999 almost everyone in the West was AGAINST Kosovo independence.
Their argument: it is against international law.
And then suddenly 9 years later they change their mind. Fine. But don't try to redo the past.
The fact is: 1244 is still valid.

Hey, I have to obey laws too. Even the laws I do not like...

As a remark: Kosovo is such a waste of time, money and resources. LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER!

if Serbia is so superior to Kosova then why is it economically downhill borrowing from all sides just to cover budget gaps? Yet at the same time Kosova with a 40% unemployment is doing very well. In fact, Kosova's budget grew this year by 6% to EUR 1,432,000,000. I predict in the next 3 years the GDP to grow by at least 4%.
(KOSOVARi, 24 November 2009 15:22)

Kosovos unemployment is at 90% and Kosovo’s budget is fully being funded by the EU/US and your talking about growth! What growth, selling drugs! Give me strength!

Kosovo will become a UN member when Serbia is ready to accept Kosovo's independence and give up its resistance to its UN membership," said he.

Answer is simple: Never!

Radoslav, and the point is???

If I just can add to your comment that Serbia is YES sir No sir too just like most of the Balkan countires. I know that you wish it was just like you discribe it but you know the reality is different.

'1244 is the legal basis for Kosovo. All sides should act based on it.
(Ron, 24 November 2009 15:38)'

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Sounds like you missed the statement by the President of the ICJ about a nuanced finding.

That's what happens when you mess with PUTINMAN!!!

Radoslav,

Can you explain how you plan this integration to happen?

I ask this question again!I hope i get an answer.

Zorane excellent comment and this

Here is a highly decorated person, one who holds the "Gold Medal of Independence" and has a doctorate from the University of Priština.

Got me going around my office and out on balcony laughing like Mutley

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.
(Olf, 25 November 2009 09:30)

Olf:
1. Serbia is recognized successor state of Yugoslavia.
2. Resolution 1244 said very clear:
"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,

Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial AUTONOMY and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo"

3. Point No 4 of resolution said:
"Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2"

4. Point 6 of Annex 2"

"After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;
- Marking/clearing minefields;
- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings. "

Leonida, all current events in the last 20 years, demonstrate a rather "Capitalist" Cyco-pathy and not communist.

Rohan explained that his position on the issue was based on Russia's stance "to always support Serbia".

"Russia can veto Kosovo's UN membership, and this will go on until Serbia gives up," concluded the Austrian diplomat.

In your dreams my good sir. You and your ilk will be waiting a very, very long time.

Gold medal of Independence ...you're havin a laugh! BAHAHAHAHA

For that fine piece of work I present my own gold medal...of comedy! HAHA!

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 10:47)

Russia was not the most powerful country in the world in 1989, it was one of two world superpowers in the world. The bankruptcy of the Soviet Union took a very long time to come to fruition, it did not happen overnight – it took many decades. The US spent so much money that it nearly went broke sending the Soviet Union to the wall.
Russia is in a completely different situation today. It has won the energy war against the US and EU. It not only controls its own gas and oil reserves, but all of the same in the former Soviet republics including Azerbaijan, the richest one of all. It has gold reserves to back its currency, which is something new in this day and age; it has about 1.2 trillion dollars in reserves and it has very little debt. It is also luring manufacturing to its shores such as Mitsubishi, which is relocating a plant from Australia to Russia; Toyota and others as well and I could go on mentioning other corporations opening up in that country. Like him or hate him, but it was Valdimir Putin that brought Russia back to its feet again.
To quote the US “we took our eye off Russia and now it’s a thorn in our side”. This would have to be the greatest understatement of the century. There is a deep resentment in Russia towards the US because of the way they were treated after the fall of the Soviet Union. Instead of showing some level of kindness, the US behaved like conquerors and belittled the Russians at every opportunity. All they had to do is display courtesy and the Russian people would have loved them forever, but they did not and the rest is history!
What is printed in the paper and what really happens are two very different things. China is not neutral on many things, that’s just what your Government tell you through the media. The Chinese do business very differently to the western world; they are tough negotiators, superb business people and do not boast nor beat their chests.

The Chinese stated, through a retired general, in the last few days that they were never abandoning North Korea, but there was only couple of lines about it on page 35 of my newspaper. It quite a difference to the story told by the US only 4 weeks ago, where China will put pressure on NK etc…You have to remember that the US make statements for “domestic consumption” – please the people happy back home, you know fighting for freedom and democracy.
China’s stance on Kosovo will have a major affect on if it moves forward or remains static. The Chinese don’t want a precedent set in the ICJ where their own republics might seek “independence”, such as Tibet. So you see China will not remain neutral it will work behind closed doors to ensure it gets its way.

michael R - Either you are seriously deluded or you don't understand the meaning of the word durable. Ahtisaari plan favours only one side - The Albanians. If there had been true negotiations instead of an ultimatum then there probably wouldn't be the problems with Kosovo that we see today.

When you get a dose of reality and stop trying to steal all the land in the Balkans then things might change. Until then tensions will remain and a good chance that conflict will reignite in the future. If you don't understand that or are too nationalistic to even care, then you really are a fool.

at least they aren't exchanging nazi-lametta, like they used to...

did berty mention when (and how) the occupied parts of kosmet will enter the "european family"? i mean, now that he is a "doctor" he maybe knows...

when the halfmoon in the sky starts yelling back at the infidels, then kosmet will become a member of eu or un ....

"I am no legal expert but I do know UN Charter.
Kosova has to make sure it will get 2/3 of UNGA before applying to become UN member. The case goes first to UNSC and is true it could be vetoed, but any UNSC permanent members can file a mottion to take the matter to UNGA,in which case no one can stop it.So much for the veto try at first.
(Kosova-USA, 25 November 2009 13:13) "

The reason people on this site call you an 'e-troll' is because you keep spouting the same rubbish regardless of the facts, even when said facts have been pointed out to you ad nauseum.

http://www.un.org/geninfo/faq/briefingpapers/briefing2a.htm

Nothing but a sad joke.

last time an Austrian thought the Serbs would "give up", the story ended with serbian troops near Vienna.

so much for the importance of Mr.Rohans opinion...


we won´t give up, since southern Serbian territory is not to be given away.

I believe that Kosovo will one day merge with Albania and maybe other albanian populated areas of Macedonia.The same will occur between Serbia and republika srpska.It is the only solution for both peoples, albanian and serbian.I am albanian from Albania and many albanians will not agree with my statements, but there is no other way.Albanians have the right to live in a united country and the same is true for the serbian people.Serbia will give up Presevo valley and Albania will give up northern part of Mitrovica.Ibar will be the new border between Albania and Serbia.Mark my words.Who will live will see..

kosovaman we all have dreams!

Kosovo will never become a UN member not only can Russia veto it so can China and India , and China will do it after signing five major economical deals with Serbia last month. Kosovo is Serbia!

pss,

I've looked for this footnote that specifies less than 1000. I cannot find it. Please provide the direct text from the resolution please.
pss, understand that I did not provide you with my opinion as to what is written in the resolution, but rather I copied and pasted directly from the resolution. In fact it does say "4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;" It does not mention non-military after it specifically mentions military.
Further, I would suggest that if there is a failure on Serbia’s part to 'Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites.' then it could be because NATO/EU/UN/KFOR/Kosovo Police is not obeying that part of the resolution to allow Serbian military to both enter, clear land mines and protect patronage sites.
Also, I'm not sure what your reference to NATO is for. NATO is not UN. This is a UN resolution.

I wonder if this might be of interest to those that are calling for the removal of internationals...
"19. Decides that the international civil and security presences are
established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless
the Security Council decides otherwise;"

I really wish that when someone wishes to reference something that they in fact use the original reference in their post or use the wording without delivering their own interpretation as if it's gold.

I've interpreted the resolution as I see it, and I've consistently provided my references. If you can find actual references then we can all have a good time in a discussion. If you want to sling mud then I will learn to ignore you, and continue to provide support for what I understand things to be.

pss:
> ..and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.

True.

But is also true that to be a member of the UN, an aspiring state must be recognised as such by at least 2/3rds of the current membership including all 5 of the permanent UN SC members.

While UN has no authority to recognise, membership is the last stop on the path of full recognition. And without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never reach it.

I hate to be the one that says "I told you so", however just like it happened with NATO bombing of Serbia and liberation of Kosovo, same will be with the UN membership. Russia was opposed to resolutions that would allow the bombing and then at some point they let go.

What will happen is, all we need is ICJ to be at least either positive or neutral and then we should be able to get 2 thirds of UN members to recognize us easily and we will be able to get in.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 00:11

It’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. You guys come up with the silliest arguments because you just don’t know and try and make it up as you go along. Russia was broke in 1999 and the US had their best man in Moscow to make sure that old Boris was compliant, a fellow called Strobe Talbott. Russia was on the verge of having part of its population starve and if it wanted loans from the IMF it had to obey the US. That’s the reason for “then at some point they let go”.
Then NATO bombed Serbia, but the world has changed dramatically to such an extent that China has tremendous influence on your beloved US – you see China owns 1/3 of the US of A. Read what your beloved President Obama says about China – “we need China, our economies are interlocked”. In fact the US needs the Chinese more than the other way around.
The statement made by the ICJ was a fishing expedition by a loyal servant of the US to see world reaction and if no real objections then the world would get a “positive or neutral” verdict. Unfortunately for the Albanians there was a huge reaction in all the right places and important countries.
China has openly told, not asked, but told the US President that Kosovo will not be recognized nor allowed in the UN. So if you think that Kosovo is more important to the US than China then you guys will have a set on the UN next week.

The reality is that China's and Russia's main customer is USA and Europe, and there is no way that they will leave about 2 billion people starving because of some interests that they have in Serbia. Serbia didn't want to let go of Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Bosnia etc... as a matter of a fact they didn't even want to reduce the forces in Kosovo let alone not having even a single soldier or police here and leave the place in hands of Kosovo Security Force.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 13:16)

God! Where do you get this stuff from??? Up until 5 years ago China’s main customer was the US, but it’s middle class has been growing in leaps and bounds. In fact Australia owes China its gratitude for keeping it out of recession. You might also note at this time the while the US is in a technical Depression, the Chinese economy has been bubbling along nicely. This is all due to the fact that that the Chinese middle class is buying it own goods and only about 20% goes to the US, whereas in 1999 it was nearly 80%.
Russia on the other hand does provide energy and minerals to Europe and is about to have a stranglehold on that continent very soon. However, I am curious to know why would Russia care about 2 million Albanians who were on the side of the US?
I always remember when Madelyn Albright was on TV being questioned about Iraq. The interviewer opened his question with a statement “The US is accused of causing the death of 500,000 children in Iraq as a result of the international sanctions; “Do you believe that these sanctions were worthwhile even with all these deaths?” Her answer was a simple Yes!
Now tell me again why the Russians have to keep 2 million Albanians from starving?
Serbia was tired of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosniaks etc; they wanted to rid themselves of this ungrateful baggage. The Serbs have nearly all that they want or need as far as territory is concerned. Including Republika Srpska, Serbia has 80% of the arable land, minerals and water resources of the former Yugoslavia. Kosovo is something different, although there are no valuable resources its part of its history and psyche so that is going to be very difficult to let go. For argument sake it’s much easier for the Serbs to let go of say Krajina than Kosovo.

Thanks peter sydney for the link, I knew somewhere it was said that the recognition of independent states was up to the individual states and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.
I will save it for future reference
(pss, 25 November 2009 16:23)

But it also states that any permanent member of UNSC can veto the recommendation and it will never get a vote as well.

Intl. law masters, can you tell e which part of 1244 Serbia is obeying.

my only comment on B92 is this.

Kosovo Albanians your independence is an Barmecide feast. I dont know where you are headed yet judging by the past actions of American foreign "benevolence" you are not going to end up at a good place.

i hope, for the sake of things that i hold dear, that the plan for your people, kosovo albanians, leads you to become more western in an educational and economical sense. my fear is that exact opposite is going to happen.

my logic dictates that k alabanians will be used as slave labour around the world while Kosovo region will become a place of economic suffering.

in that scenario, i can see Serbia being dragged back by the illusional based vengeance that is found in albanians.

im writing this comment since im not developed enough in the art of influence. my hope is that some smart albanians will see this comment and think.

Olf,
I do not know if we've directly exchanged dialog on this forum either, but what I was trying to get you to do was answer your own question, using UN Res 1244 as your basis. I did see that you spent much time trying to demonstrate that the resolution focused on Yugoslavia and not Serbia. As many downstream posters have pointed out that Serbia is the official successor to Yugoslavia, in all forms this part of your argument is inaccurate. I was hoping that you'd spend some time to look through res 1244 and find out for yourself whether or not Serbia and Kosovo and Internatioanl community is living up to the agreed upon resolution. I didn't see that in your retort, but rather more unsubstantiated opinions without reference.
I was really hoping that you were going to take this topic up to the next level, especially considering your opening comments about the *milosevic-style* commentators on this forum.
Please try again. As I have said I am not an expert, yet I do understand what it is that I read, and I have not read anything in UN 1244 that would seem to suggest your position. I am open for dialog and enlightenment, but not through "I said so" style arguments.

The notion of independence is an abuse of 1244. What was intended was obviously self government while maintaining the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.

The current situation is not a settlement within the terms of 1244. It can follow therefore that if at anytime Serbia decides that 1244 has been invalidated and its terms no longer apply, it will have the right to reoccupy.

It can be concluded that unless Serbia specifically signs away its rights, there is no guaranteed future for an ethnic Albanian state in Kosovo to sustain of itself. There will always have to be occupying troops there.

It is clear that the ethnic cleansing of Serbs was always the ambition of the Albanians - long before Milosevic. I find it amazing therefore that the US has sought to reward such racist ambition. In no way should the current setup be labelled anything other than mono-ethnic.

Recognising countries should seriously reconsider - this is not just a matter of pragmatics or of slapping down Serbs - it is also a matter of rewarding something that was intrinsically wrongly motivated.

The correct solution should have been some kind of intermediate plan - a protectorate of some sort. In practice that is what the current masquerade actually is.

(Zoran, 24 November 2009 17:53)

We have chosen a better future, there is a saying better 1st in village than last in town.

This is our country and in time we will get in to UN, EU, UEFA Fifa or olympics.

This is last think to worry, we are a new country and this is still better than to be part of all those organisations and under Serbian rule.

We been there done that it was not so nice

If so than the other option pops up...

Who said no UN no FIFA no EU look on the MAP and see country called ALBANIA.Kosova is a province of Albania and nothing else.If you really belive that Albanians want to be independent in Kosova than you have no clue of reality.All Albanians in one state.See the National team of Albania there are eight players from the province of KOSOVA playing for they national team of ALBANIA.See you in EU Serbia and Real Albania.

(sj, 25 November 2009 14:24)

As hard as it is to let go of Kosovo, soon it will be a history, and we will argue about something else I'm sure. The reality right now in Kosovo is that no Serbian military boot is stepping in and KSF is in charge. You tell me if it's in your hands or not.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 14:57

I hate to tell you that Kosovo is going nowhere fast, but have it your way. However, I am still curious to know why would Russia care about 2 million Albanians who were on the side of the US?
KSF is in charge of nothing. Hasn’t the passport incident taught you anything? Albanians are controlled by the EU and until Serbia recognizes Kosovo as a separate state then there is nothing – the EU will remain forever pouring billions into a bottomless pit with no return on that ‘investment’. This Camp Bondsteel would have to be the most expensive ‘white elephant’ on the planet.
I know for a fact that the Russian ultra nationalist in Putin’s party have an old score to settle with the EU and they are making preparations now and Kosovo and Croatia are part of those preparations. I’ll leave it at that for now.

Zoran we agree to disagree, time will tell i think this will be more clear next year after 30page neutral answer.

u hope things go wrong and Kosovo goes under Serbia I have same but I think different.

Murik - You just might be right with everything you said. The Albanians will be happy swapping Presevo for Mitrovica and joining Kosovo with Albania, and the Serbs would be happy letting Republika Srpska join Serbia.

It's not a "perfect" solution but the Balkans isn't a perfect place with everyone seeming to claim lands from Austria down to Turkey - OK, slight exageration but you know what I mean.

One BIG problem here though - the major powers won't let it happen. It's in their interests to preserve Bosnia and "Kosova"!

But here's wishing a durable solution can be found.

I hate to be the one that says "I told you so", however just like it happened with NATO bombing of Serbia and liberation of Kosovo, same will be with the UN membership. Russia was opposed to resolutions that would allow the bombing and then at some point they let go. What will happen is, all we need is ICJ to be at least either positive or neutral and then we should be able to get 2 thirds of UN members to recognize us easily and we will be able to get in.

But here's wishing a durable solution can be found.
(Radoslav, 25 November 2009 00:49)

But a durable solution has been found! It's called the Ahtisaari Plan. The Serbs just need a little time to get used to it. Before long, the Serbs will grow to embrace it, since that is the only way they may join the EU.

Thanks peter sydney for the link, I knew somewhere it was said that the recognition of independent states was up to the individual states and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.
I will save it for future reference

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

Good Point the A plan does have a multi-ethnic following because of it is based on European standards and separates church and state as opposed to the laws of the Serb state which are either orthodox church laws or duma laws.

At the end of the day... we can wait for UN all time as long as Serbia is not ruling Kosovo.

We are Freeee!

Forget Kosova. Look at Vojvodina before that goes..

Mr Rae, you have mistaken me with someone else, we have never exchaged comments,sorry. or maybe you have changed you nick to Mr Rae to get a response from me since I dont like exchanging comment with some impolite Milosevic propaganda journalist. If this is not the case than I sincerely apologise.

Mr. Rae, dont you realise that US 1244 has nothing to do with Serbia, all the time mentiones Yougoslavia, Yugoslavia ... Yugoslavia.
For some time now 1244 is in the same place where Yugoslavia is.

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.

All pros and cons,

I am no legal expert but I do know UN Charter.
Kosova has to make sure it will get 2/3 of UNGA before applying to become UN member. The case goes first to UNSC and is true it could be vetoed, but any UNSC permanent members can file a mottion to take the matter to UNGA,in which case no one can stop it.So much for the veto try at first.

The UN is a toothless tiger. Being part of it or not, what difference does it make? Nothing! And there would be still option B left, unification with Albania.

But like I said, no real need.

(Niall O'Doherty, 25 November 2009 12:13)

The reality is that China's and Russia's main customer is USA and Europe, and there is no way that they will leave about 2 billion people starving because of some interests that they have in Serbia. Serbia didn't want to let go of Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Bosnia etc... as a matter of a fact they didn't even want to reduce the forces in Kosovo let alone not having even a single soldier or police here and leave the place in hands of Kosovo Security Force.

Olf,

Indeed, Serbia is the successor state of YU.
You may not like that, but that's the fact.

Mind that in 1999 almost everyone in the West was AGAINST Kosovo independence.
Their argument: it is against international law.
And then suddenly 9 years later they change their mind. Fine. But don't try to redo the past.
The fact is: 1244 is still valid.

Hey, I have to obey laws too. Even the laws I do not like...

As a remark: Kosovo is such a waste of time, money and resources. LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER!
(Ron, 25 November 2009 16:51)

We are yet to see an international agreement that confirms Serbia as the successor of Yugoslavia. It is easy for you to say "learn to live together", because it is not you who pay dearly with your life "the living together with Serbs" it's me. We tried to live together and we all so what happened. But there were not olny Albanians who did not like to live together with Serbs.

In any case, Kosovo should be pragmatic and not focus on UN membership. It does not need it really, it just needs to establish ties and be recognized by countries that matter to its well being. Kosovo needs to focus on economic develeopment and second on building an army to ensure the safety of its people from Serbian aggression and terror.

All other representations will be provided by Albania....from sports to trade and/or everything else. This will work even better, because now Tirana will be the focal point of K-Alb, and any Serbian influence in Kosovo will be reduced to a minimum. Very soon Kosovo and Albania will represent one economic market and will essentially function as one country economically and culturaly, this also thanks to Serbia's policies pointed towards isolating Kosovo. Many albanians from both sides prefer this unity rather than Kosovo being a separate entity in most of the cases. In the end we are one people.

So I believe Serbia continues to make the wrong moves, from blocking the trade, to building military bases in the throat of the albanians which contributes to tension and unrest.

"...They would have been useful for mine-clearing, that's certain.
(Amer, 25 November 2009 19:17)..."

>>> "I like to wake up...in the city which does not sleep...New York...New York..."

Kosovos unemployment is at 90% and Kosovo’s budget is fully being funded by the EU/US and your talking about growth! What growth, selling drugs! Give me strength!
(sj, 24 November 2009 23:39)

At least make a credible statement.

Russia was broke in 1999 and the US had their best man in Moscow to make sure that old Boris was compliant, a fellow called Strobe Talbott. Russia was on the verge of having part of its population starve and if it wanted loans from the IMF it had to obey the US. That’s the reason for “then at some point they let go”.
(sj, 25 November 2009 09:05)

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.

Good point on Albania, Denis. What belongs together, is coming together.

Mr Rae, my apologies, after submitting my commentI read the comment from Milan and went back and found where there are 2 places it addresses the return of Personnel, one it does mention military and police and the other only personnel.
But it is very specific in these functions and that they are to work under the supervision of the international forces, and as pointed out the number can be in the hundreds not thousands.

Mr Rae, if you reread 1244 you will find some inaccuracies in your post.
After withdrawal a number of Yugo and Serb personnel (not military and police personnel) to do the following and only these tasks:
1. act as liason to international staff.
2.Marking/clearing minefields
3.Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites.
4. Maintaining a presence at key border crossings.
Also if you notice the footnote--this number would be less than a 1000.
To date Serbia has not made a request to NATO for any of these personnel to return.

A phrase that has been adopted by the UNSC and insisted on by Serbia is the UN and EU are to participate under a "status neutral" position. ie the UN does not recognize Kosovo as an independent state NOR as a province of Serbia.

really wish that when someone wishes to reference something that they in fact use the original reference in their post or use the wording without delivering their own interpretation as if it's gold.

I've interpreted the resolution as I see it, and I've consistently provided my references. If you can find actual references then we can all have a good time in a discussion. If you want to sling mud then I will learn to ignore you, and continue to provide support for what I understand things to be.
(Mr Rae, 25 November 2009 16:42)
I find your comment comical if you go to the UN site and look up res 1244 you will get the original and not an altered copy of 1244.
http://www.unmikonline.org/press/reports/N9917289.pdf
You will note as I said it says personnel it does not say military and police personnel, it does not rule them out, but whoever sent must ge agreed upon.
Also you will read that the resolution directly dictates that security forces with substantial North Atlantic Treaty Organization participation, thus the establishment of Kfor which has always been headed by a NATO commander.

(sj, 25 November 2009 14:24)

As hard as it is to let go of Kosovo, soon it will be a history, and we will argue about something else I'm sure. The reality right now in Kosovo is that no Serbian military boot is stepping in and KSF is in charge. You tell me if it's in your hands or not.

While UN has no authority to recognise, membership is the last stop on the path of full recognition. And without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never reach it.
(peter, sydney, 26 November 2009 18:16)
Never is a long time and there could be many changes along the way.
However no one promised a smooth or easy trip.
While becoming a member of UN is the ultimate goal, I sincerely doubt many at this point have lost sleep over it.
I have never had to live under the thumb of oppression, but I truly believe that for those who have, UN membership is just decorations on the cake.

Mr Rae - you said:

"I've looked for this footnote that specifies less than 1000. I cannot find it. Please provide the direct text from the resolution please. "

At the very end of the resolution, under Notes:

"Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands)"

Did Serbia ever formally request that their personnel be allowed to return (before Aug 2007), or were they satisfied to have Russian troops represent them? Or did they not want to operate under NATO supervision? They would have been useful for mine-clearing, that's certain.

Serbia will give up Presevo valley and Albania will give up northern part of Mitrovica.
Murik, Dont forget S.Metohija(modern North Albania) they will join Serbia and S.Albania that will become part of Greece.

pss:
> Never is a long time and there could be many changes along the way.

For starters, I didn't use the word 'never' unqualified. I qualified it with the words "without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto".

And there is only one change that matters in relation to 'pseudo-state' becoming a member of the UN - the removal of the russian veto.

Russians have already stated that they will do so if Serbia removes it's objection. And likelihood of Russia changing it's stance without a similar change in Serbia's position is next to nil.

Repeating..
Without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never have UN membership.

> While becoming a member of UN is the ultimate goal, I sincerely doubt many at this point have lost sleep over it.

Reality is that 'pseudo-state' is nowhere near this 'ultimate goal'. Just as it is nowhere near EU membership. Reality is that K-albanians are headed nowhere fast, & sooner or later they'll realise it.

Reality is that before the K-albanians were the 'oppressed', they were the 'oppressors', just as they are now.

And reality is that until they agree to some compromise with the serbs, situation will not change.

To be perfectly honest with everyone, Kosovo does NOT deserve a UN seat. The many destroyed churches remain destroyed. There are no minority rights. Christians face extreme discrimination and rejection by the Muslim populace of Kosovo.

'>>> "I like to wake up...in the city which does not sleep...New York...New York..."
(dean van der serbia, 26 November 2009 03:35) '

??

All I had in mind was that Serbian soliders would have had maps of their minefields, making removal of the mines a much safer affair.

"The so-called Ahtisaari plan"...wowww...again the- so-called

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.

The Serb Camp isn't making any sense. You keep trying to make up bogus lies about "hand-outs" when it is known that Serbia has borrowed more from EU/IMF/WB/EBRD in the last 18 months than Kosova has in 10 years.

Tell me this.

How is Serbia going to take Kosova back exactly?

Also,

if Serbia is so superior to Kosova then why is it economically downhill borrowing from all sides just to cover budget gaps? Yet at the same time Kosova with a 40% unemployment is doing very well. In fact, Kosova's budget grew this year by 6% to EUR 1,432,000,000. I predict in the next 3 years the GDP to grow by at least 4%.

He should be rewarded, the international community got it right in the Balkans this time by creating the A plan or road map to independence.

If Serbia wants to get in EU it will happen. That's very simple.

Unless US can buy Russia off but for now that's far fetched with Putin and the state he runs.

22 of 27 have recognized Kosova so far, EU is stuck with Kosova so they pressure Serbia.

Radoslav,

Can you explain how you plan this integration to happen?

I ask this question again!I hope i get an answer.

Radoslav, and the point is???

If I just can add to your comment that Serbia is YES sir No sir too just like most of the Balkan countires. I know that you wish it was just like you discribe it but you know the reality is different.

'1244 is the legal basis for Kosovo. All sides should act based on it.
(Ron, 24 November 2009 15:38)'

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." Sounds like you missed the statement by the President of the ICJ about a nuanced finding.

PRN - there's a difference between legitimacy and force. The situation is as it stands today not because there was genuine dialogue and an agreement, but because the US and EU decided that they needed Kosovo's coal reserves, to Serbia that Kosovo would be independent, then started to expand it's military bases in Kosovo.

Somehow I can't see peace lasting in the region in the next few years/decades with this "agreement", whether it be full scale war or constant skirmishing - and don't bank on the US and EU bailing you out and coming to your aid. They are highly stretched already and will be for decades. It may not be tomorrow, but in the future whether you like it or not, Kosovo will be under the direct control of Serbia again.

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

So-called Ahtisaari plan have any legitimization, becouse was NOT ACCEPTED by Serbia and international community. This proalbanian pseudoplan is against serbian law and constitution.

PS. K-Serbs en masse BOYCOTTED this pseudoplan and their author.

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

After seeing your credibility reduced to nothing after the 5 million Albanians in Turkey post, you have found a way to sink even lower with this one. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu then award him the "Gold Medal of Independence".

B92

Only a gold medal?
It will be more appropriate to erect another statue which
together with the Albanians' crude communist-style display of sycophancy will show what a pathetic "state" Kosovo is.

Intl. law masters, can you tell e which part of 1244 Serbia is obeying.

Albert Rohan comes back to the scene of the crime to accept his medal from the terrorist Thaci. How touching.
It's interesting that an Austrian, Rohan, is one of main culprits responsible for the fake, illegal, and immoral 'state' of Kosovo. He is still upset about the destruction of his Austro-Hungarian empire, which Serbia had lots to do with, and rightly so.
Luckily, thanks to Russia, his attempt to steal sovereign Serbian land has failed miserably.
Cheers!!

Who said no UN no FIFA no EU look on the MAP and see country called ALBANIA.Kosova is a province of Albania and nothing else.If you really belive that Albanians want to be independent in Kosova than you have no clue of reality.All Albanians in one state.See the National team of Albania there are eight players from the province of KOSOVA playing for they national team of ALBANIA.See you in EU Serbia and Real Albania.

I believe that Kosovo will one day merge with Albania and maybe other albanian populated areas of Macedonia.The same will occur between Serbia and republika srpska.It is the only solution for both peoples, albanian and serbian.I am albanian from Albania and many albanians will not agree with my statements, but there is no other way.Albanians have the right to live in a united country and the same is true for the serbian people.Serbia will give up Presevo valley and Albania will give up northern part of Mitrovica.Ibar will be the new border between Albania and Serbia.Mark my words.Who will live will see..

I am glad the EU and US are babysitting these highly imaginative ethnic Albanians. I think it won't take long to realise what they've got themselves into. What then?

What's with all the medals and honorary degrees? Kosovo has no future because the Albanian Kosovars keep focusing on the past. Serbia, on the other hand keeps making new deals globally to strengthen her economy. For instance, the new truck manufacturing deal with China, the pipeline deal with Russia, auto manufacturing deals with Fiat, etc. Moreover, they have the energy to keep fighting for their country's territorial integrity. Kosovo's Albanians, on the other hand, wait for handouts, let the economy go to he**. What an interesting contrast. Thus, if Kosovo does stay sovereign, it will be nothing but a poor dependent state. Funny that some Albanian supporters laugh at Serbia's dealings with Nigeria. Kosovo could only wish it would ever be as successful a country as Nigeria.

xythi - you couldn't be more correct. In those years, Kosovo will be gradually reintegrated into Serbia.

Welcome back.

"Kosovo will become a UN member when Serbia is ready to accept Kosovo's independence"

In other words Kosovo will never become a UN member. It will always be a failed American experiment. Just wait a few more years when the West gets even more tired of the albanians. Good thing Serbia has built a military base in Bujanovac. They will need it for what is to come.

DOesn't this whatever his name get a statue? Just an honorary doctorate- I wouldn't accept even if it is from such a prestigious university.

This plan was never accepted by the UN. 1244 was. 1244 is still valid.

I would say: less talk about this plan, more talk about 1244.

Or can you refer to a contract never signed by all parties when you have an argument with your boss?

1244 is the legal basis for Kosovo. All sides should act based on it.

(Zoran, 24 November 2009 17:53)

We have chosen a better future, there is a saying better 1st in village than last in town.

This is our country and in time we will get in to UN, EU, UEFA Fifa or olympics.

This is last think to worry, we are a new country and this is still better than to be part of all those organisations and under Serbian rule.

We been there done that it was not so nice

Mr Rae, you have mistaken me with someone else, we have never exchaged comments,sorry. or maybe you have changed you nick to Mr Rae to get a response from me since I dont like exchanging comment with some impolite Milosevic propaganda journalist. If this is not the case than I sincerely apologise.

Mr. Rae, dont you realise that US 1244 has nothing to do with Serbia, all the time mentiones Yougoslavia, Yugoslavia ... Yugoslavia.
For some time now 1244 is in the same place where Yugoslavia is.

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.

I don't see the merit of celebrating a plan that, even if implemented, would severely limit Pristina's authority to the point of impotency. And judging from the way in which history is taught in Albanian schools, I'm not exactly sure I'd want to receive an honorary anything from Pristina University.

Well, well,...The so-called Ahtisaari plan has proven to be far more legitimate (which even local Serbs en masse started to accept it) THAN the Serbia state or the Serbia constitution.
(PRN, 24 November 2009 10:49)

Good Point the A plan does have a multi-ethnic following because of it is based on European standards and separates church and state as opposed to the laws of the Serb state which are either orthodox church laws or duma laws.

"After seeing your credibility reduced to nothing after the 5 million Albanians in Turkey post, you have found a way to sink even lower with this one. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
(Jason, 24 November 2009 11:38)"

Jason,


And there are numerous other Albanian commentators like him that post their imagination here day after day. The Turks have to be careful. Within a few generations the Albanians in Turkey will have outnumbered their Turkey's hosts and then claim more land to be theirs. The Albanian big brothers (Turks) will be in for a big and unpleasant surprise. However, neither will be allowed into the EU, which by that time will be another dark mark on Europe's history.

One must really wonder if international officials going to Kosovo do more harm than good. According to additional statements made by Rohan:

1. Kosovo has no hope of getting into the UN "until Serbia gives up", which will be never.

2. Recognitions, by his own admonition, have trickled to a near-halt because of the ICJ, which will in turn provide a vague answer to Kosovo's future status, making any future recognitions unnecessary, and place Kosovo within the status of a parastate.

Yet for some strange reason, he either concludes his speech or begins it with a statement of Kosovo having a "bright future".

Either Sejdiu is that oblivious to realities, or Rohan just insulted the intelligence of the entire K Albanian leadership.

Ahtisaari plan will not exist within 5-7 years thats a FACT!

I hate to be the one that says "I told you so", however just like it happened with NATO bombing of Serbia and liberation of Kosovo, same will be with the UN membership. Russia was opposed to resolutions that would allow the bombing and then at some point they let go. What will happen is, all we need is ICJ to be at least either positive or neutral and then we should be able to get 2 thirds of UN members to recognize us easily and we will be able to get in.

Serbia will never give up on Kosovo. It's in their constitution, and church law.

because Serbia just needs to negotiate with the US. The Albanians have NO say whatsoever in Kosovo.

The REALITY in Kosovo is that the Albanians are "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" dependents. They have to ask the US for permission for EVERYTHING - so much for a so called "sovereign Republic of Kosova" when you don't even make your own decisions.

So what will probably happen is that the US will pay off your corrupt politicians like Thaci, Haradinaj and the rest (they are all the same), and gradually the Serbian army will move back into Kosovo (probably in small numbers at first) and a deal will be done for extensive autonomy. Your "leaders" will tell you that there is a stalemate with no hope for economic progress and no hope for EU integration unless they do as they are told.

there will be a lot of unhappy albanians but in time the violence will subside and you will realise reality - the fact that you are an insignificant internaional military power (even regionally albanians are weak militarily - probably the weakest in the region along with the macedonians) and have no power to tell anyone what to do.

BUT, taking the Albanian view that the US will be their protector FOREVER, you will no doubt argue that you ARE independent and will ultimately join with Albania to form a greater albania.

Well, assume you will have the protection of the US and EU, and assume that everyone in the balkans joins the EU (even without a UN seat because of Russia and China). So Serbia, and Albania and "republic of Kosovoa" all play happy families but you'll still be second class citizens in the sense that you'll be told what you can and can't do. The Eu and US will NEVER allow "Kosova" to join with Albania. They know that any attempt to join both together will start a war with Serbia, so even though Albania is a NATO member, it's doing what it's master commands it to do.

Whichever outcome happens, I can almost guarantee that there will never be peace around kosovo, either the Serbs or Albanians will be unhappy with the outcome and as we all klnow what happens from history in the Balkans, it'll be a matter of time before one starts a fight with the other again.

Zoran we agree to disagree, time will tell i think this will be more clear next year after 30page neutral answer.

u hope things go wrong and Kosovo goes under Serbia I have same but I think different.

Russia was broke in 1999 and the US had their best man in Moscow to make sure that old Boris was compliant, a fellow called Strobe Talbott. Russia was on the verge of having part of its population starve and if it wanted loans from the IMF it had to obey the US. That’s the reason for “then at some point they let go”.
(sj, 25 November 2009 09:05)

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.

Olf,

Indeed, Serbia is the successor state of YU.
You may not like that, but that's the fact.

Mind that in 1999 almost everyone in the West was AGAINST Kosovo independence.
Their argument: it is against international law.
And then suddenly 9 years later they change their mind. Fine. But don't try to redo the past.
The fact is: 1244 is still valid.

Hey, I have to obey laws too. Even the laws I do not like...

As a remark: Kosovo is such a waste of time, money and resources. LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER!
(Ron, 25 November 2009 16:51)

We are yet to see an international agreement that confirms Serbia as the successor of Yugoslavia. It is easy for you to say "learn to live together", because it is not you who pay dearly with your life "the living together with Serbs" it's me. We tried to live together and we all so what happened. But there were not olny Albanians who did not like to live together with Serbs.

In any case, Kosovo should be pragmatic and not focus on UN membership. It does not need it really, it just needs to establish ties and be recognized by countries that matter to its well being. Kosovo needs to focus on economic develeopment and second on building an army to ensure the safety of its people from Serbian aggression and terror.

All other representations will be provided by Albania....from sports to trade and/or everything else. This will work even better, because now Tirana will be the focal point of K-Alb, and any Serbian influence in Kosovo will be reduced to a minimum. Very soon Kosovo and Albania will represent one economic market and will essentially function as one country economically and culturaly, this also thanks to Serbia's policies pointed towards isolating Kosovo. Many albanians from both sides prefer this unity rather than Kosovo being a separate entity in most of the cases. In the end we are one people.

So I believe Serbia continues to make the wrong moves, from blocking the trade, to building military bases in the throat of the albanians which contributes to tension and unrest.

But here's wishing a durable solution can be found.
(Radoslav, 25 November 2009 00:49)

But a durable solution has been found! It's called the Ahtisaari Plan. The Serbs just need a little time to get used to it. Before long, the Serbs will grow to embrace it, since that is the only way they may join the EU.

Mr Rae, if you reread 1244 you will find some inaccuracies in your post.
After withdrawal a number of Yugo and Serb personnel (not military and police personnel) to do the following and only these tasks:
1. act as liason to international staff.
2.Marking/clearing minefields
3.Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites.
4. Maintaining a presence at key border crossings.
Also if you notice the footnote--this number would be less than a 1000.
To date Serbia has not made a request to NATO for any of these personnel to return.

A phrase that has been adopted by the UNSC and insisted on by Serbia is the UN and EU are to participate under a "status neutral" position. ie the UN does not recognize Kosovo as an independent state NOR as a province of Serbia.

All pros and cons,

I am no legal expert but I do know UN Charter.
Kosova has to make sure it will get 2/3 of UNGA before applying to become UN member. The case goes first to UNSC and is true it could be vetoed, but any UNSC permanent members can file a mottion to take the matter to UNGA,in which case no one can stop it.So much for the veto try at first.

"Russia can veto Kosovo's UN membership, and this will go on until Serbia gives up," concluded the Austrian diplomat.
--
There you have it my dear citizens. Don't ever expect to join the UN! No UN, No Olympics, No FIFA and no independence. Spain has also confirmed never to recognise so forget about the EU.

You can start talking and negotiating if brave enough but I suspect your US protectors will not allow that otherwise Camp Bondsteel becomes vulnerable.

Wake up my dear citizens. Prosperity is achieved with negotiations and forming peace within the region. Stop living in your imaginary past, throw away the lies and start working towards a better future for all.

Forget Kosova. Look at Vojvodina before that goes..

The UN is a toothless tiger. Being part of it or not, what difference does it make? Nothing! And there would be still option B left, unification with Albania.

But like I said, no real need.

Russia as the safeguard of international law...
The West should be ashamed!

But let's not forget China. China will never accept illegal Kosovo independence.

Neither will Spain and the others in the EU.

Ergo: no UN and no EU for Kosovo.

But hey, it is a PROVINCE!

"Over the past few years Kosovo's economy has shown significant progress in transitioning to a market-based system and maintaining macroeconomic stability, but it is still highly dependent on the international community and the diaspora for financial and technical assistance. Remittances from the diaspora - located mainly in Germany and Switzerland - are estimated to account for about 15% of GDP, and donor-financed activities and aid for another 15%. Kosovo's citizens are the poorest in Europe with an average annual per capita income of only $2,300. Unemployment, around 40% of the population, is a significant problem that encourages outward migration and black market activity"

(taken from the CIA world fact book, about the economy of Kosovo)

so much about the prospering economy of Kosovo.

Zorane excellent comment and this

Here is a highly decorated person, one who holds the "Gold Medal of Independence" and has a doctorate from the University of Priština.

Got me going around my office and out on balcony laughing like Mutley

That's what happens when you mess with PUTINMAN!!!

(Niall O'Doherty, 25 November 2009 12:13)

The reality is that China's and Russia's main customer is USA and Europe, and there is no way that they will leave about 2 billion people starving because of some interests that they have in Serbia. Serbia didn't want to let go of Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Bosnia etc... as a matter of a fact they didn't even want to reduce the forces in Kosovo let alone not having even a single soldier or police here and leave the place in hands of Kosovo Security Force.

Good point on Albania, Denis. What belongs together, is coming together.

Kosovo will become a UN member when Serbia is ready to accept Kosovo's independence and give up its resistance to its UN membership," said he.

Answer is simple: Never!

At the end of the day... we can wait for UN all time as long as Serbia is not ruling Kosovo.

We are Freeee!

This is called placing the church back into the middle of the village!
In other words 1244 is tightly glued onto kosovo's back and it certainly not this kind of medal collector that will be able to change the course of justice, to the contrary he is even putting another layer of glue by being so clear!!

I can understand the wish of k-a not to report to belgrade anymore, but sorry, this can't be done outside the prevailing intl laws.

There isn't any single reason why the kurds, the palestinians, the, the, the, the..., (the list is already too long) never had the same right. Licking the US boots doesn't give you all the rights, this guy's statement was just a reminder!!

Intl. law masters, can you tell e which part of 1244 Serbia is obeying.
(Olf, 24 November 2009 21:36)

Translation pls....

(sj, 25 November 2009 14:24)

As hard as it is to let go of Kosovo, soon it will be a history, and we will argue about something else I'm sure. The reality right now in Kosovo is that no Serbian military boot is stepping in and KSF is in charge. You tell me if it's in your hands or not.

Leonida, all current events in the last 20 years, demonstrate a rather "Capitalist" Cyco-pathy and not communist.

Kosovos unemployment is at 90% and Kosovo’s budget is fully being funded by the EU/US and your talking about growth! What growth, selling drugs! Give me strength!
(sj, 24 November 2009 23:39)

At least make a credible statement.

Mr Rae - you said:

"I've looked for this footnote that specifies less than 1000. I cannot find it. Please provide the direct text from the resolution please. "

At the very end of the resolution, under Notes:

"Return of personnel for the four functions specified above will be under the supervision of the international security presence and will be limited to a small agreed number (hundreds, not thousands)"

Did Serbia ever formally request that their personnel be allowed to return (before Aug 2007), or were they satisfied to have Russian troops represent them? Or did they not want to operate under NATO supervision? They would have been useful for mine-clearing, that's certain.

'>>> "I like to wake up...in the city which does not sleep...New York...New York..."
(dean van der serbia, 26 November 2009 03:35) '

??

All I had in mind was that Serbian soliders would have had maps of their minefields, making removal of the mines a much safer affair.

Maybe this is a right moment for Albanian commentators to mention again albanian science and stories about polar bears living KosMet.

if Serbia is so superior to Kosova then why is it economically downhill borrowing from all sides just to cover budget gaps? Yet at the same time Kosova with a 40% unemployment is doing very well. In fact, Kosova's budget grew this year by 6% to EUR 1,432,000,000. I predict in the next 3 years the GDP to grow by at least 4%.
(KOSOVARi, 24 November 2009 15:22)

Kosovos unemployment is at 90% and Kosovo’s budget is fully being funded by the EU/US and your talking about growth! What growth, selling drugs! Give me strength!

We have chosen a better future, there is a saying better 1st in village than last in town.

...better than to be part of all those organisations and under Serbian rule.
(Bilbao, 24 November 2009 19:28)
--
Bilbao, the problem is you are both last in town and last in the village.

Here is a highly decorated person, one who holds the "Gold Medal of Independence" and has a doctorate from the University of Priština. This person is one of yours telling you straight in the face that you cannot become a member of the UN and therefore will never achieve independence.

You can keep dreaming at your own peril but it's not going to bring peace nor prosperity to our province and while we are at it, Serbia has absolutely no interest in ruling you.

I thank God the EU and US have taken it upon themselves to do that. You see, Serbia is offering self-rule and that extends to ethnic Albanians in Presevo.

Our greater interest is in preserving our territorial integrity, our loyal citizens plus religious and cultural heritage.

One day I hope our ethnic Albanian citizens realise the EU and US cannot provide any more than what Serbia is offering. This person may be the first of many to slowly reveal the truth.

Serbia will give up Presevo valley and Albania will give up northern part of Mitrovica.
Murik, Dont forget S.Metohija(modern North Albania) they will join Serbia and S.Albania that will become part of Greece.

Thanks peter sydney for the link, I knew somewhere it was said that the recognition of independent states was up to the individual states and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.
I will save it for future reference
(pss, 25 November 2009 16:23)

But it also states that any permanent member of UNSC can veto the recommendation and it will never get a vote as well.

"Who said no UN no FIFA no EU look on the MAP and see country called ALBANIA.Kosova is a province of Albania and nothing else.If you really belive that Albanians want to be independent in Kosova than you have no clue of reality.All Albanians in one state.See the National team of Albania there are eight players from the province of KOSOVA playing for they national team of ALBANIA.See you in EU Serbia and Real Albania.
(Beni, 24 November 2009 19:54)"

I wonder if the UN knows that Kosovo is now a province of Albania as you claim. If there are eight players from Kosovo playing in the Albanian national team the UEFA should check if they actually have Albanian passports. If not Albania should be banned from international games for at least five years for having foreigners in its team (that is also international law). If they have Albanian passports it is probably because they were born in Albania and their families moved or fled to Kosovo (either legally or illegally). The reality is that there will NEVER be a unified (Greater) Albania. Forcefully creating that will lead to a new Balkan War and maybe worse.

Rohan explained that his position on the issue was based on Russia's stance "to always support Serbia".

"Russia can veto Kosovo's UN membership, and this will go on until Serbia gives up," concluded the Austrian diplomat.

In your dreams my good sir. You and your ilk will be waiting a very, very long time.

Murik - You just might be right with everything you said. The Albanians will be happy swapping Presevo for Mitrovica and joining Kosovo with Albania, and the Serbs would be happy letting Republika Srpska join Serbia.

It's not a "perfect" solution but the Balkans isn't a perfect place with everyone seeming to claim lands from Austria down to Turkey - OK, slight exageration but you know what I mean.

One BIG problem here though - the major powers won't let it happen. It's in their interests to preserve Bosnia and "Kosova"!

But here's wishing a durable solution can be found.

my only comment on B92 is this.

Kosovo Albanians your independence is an Barmecide feast. I dont know where you are headed yet judging by the past actions of American foreign "benevolence" you are not going to end up at a good place.

i hope, for the sake of things that i hold dear, that the plan for your people, kosovo albanians, leads you to become more western in an educational and economical sense. my fear is that exact opposite is going to happen.

my logic dictates that k alabanians will be used as slave labour around the world while Kosovo region will become a place of economic suffering.

in that scenario, i can see Serbia being dragged back by the illusional based vengeance that is found in albanians.

im writing this comment since im not developed enough in the art of influence. my hope is that some smart albanians will see this comment and think.

Olf,
instead of me doing all the work for you, and listing case after case of where Serbia is following UN resolution 1244, I would rather you do some work for yourself and tell us where you think Serbia is failing?
Again, I haven't read every letter of he resolution at this time, yet the sections that I did read continued to affirm that Serbia is and has been behaving in accordance with US resolution 1244.
I'm all for open and honest dialog, but these comments from the cheap seats are either intended to ignite some angry passions in people, and start a pointless argument or you are truly and fully witless. I'd rather assume the former and not mark you as that because I hope that you are going to put some effort to defend you comments and you point of view.
NOTE:
This may be of subtle interest to you: (straight from US Resolution 1244)
4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;
May I ask what's Kosovo done to uphold it's part of the bargain?
These two pieces of the resolution could be interesting too:
Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States
of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,
Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial autonomy and
meaningful self-administration for Kosovo,
...

Just bits and pieces, but I've done a bit of homework, let us see yours now...

Just bits and pieces, but I've done a bit of homework, let us see yours now...
(Mr Rae, 24 November 2009 23:21)

Mr Rae,

Excellent post supported with facts and logic. Do not expect the same from your less-than worthy adversary - everything he writes is lacking logic and facts, and is purely an emotional response.

Olf,

Indeed, Serbia is the successor state of YU.
You may not like that, but that's the fact.

Mind that in 1999 almost everyone in the West was AGAINST Kosovo independence.
Their argument: it is against international law.
And then suddenly 9 years later they change their mind. Fine. But don't try to redo the past.
The fact is: 1244 is still valid.

Hey, I have to obey laws too. Even the laws I do not like...

As a remark: Kosovo is such a waste of time, money and resources. LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER!

good luck trying to pursue a serb or the orthodox church to "give up"...

The reality is that China's and Russia's main customer is USA and Europe, and there is no way that they will leave about 2 billion people starving because of some interests that they have in Serbia. Serbia didn't want to let go of Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Bosnia etc... as a matter of a fact they didn't even want to reduce the forces in Kosovo let alone not having even a single soldier or police here and leave the place in hands of Kosovo Security Force.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 13:16)

God! Where do you get this stuff from??? Up until 5 years ago China’s main customer was the US, but it’s middle class has been growing in leaps and bounds. In fact Australia owes China its gratitude for keeping it out of recession. You might also note at this time the while the US is in a technical Depression, the Chinese economy has been bubbling along nicely. This is all due to the fact that that the Chinese middle class is buying it own goods and only about 20% goes to the US, whereas in 1999 it was nearly 80%.
Russia on the other hand does provide energy and minerals to Europe and is about to have a stranglehold on that continent very soon. However, I am curious to know why would Russia care about 2 million Albanians who were on the side of the US?
I always remember when Madelyn Albright was on TV being questioned about Iraq. The interviewer opened his question with a statement “The US is accused of causing the death of 500,000 children in Iraq as a result of the international sanctions; “Do you believe that these sanctions were worthwhile even with all these deaths?” Her answer was a simple Yes!
Now tell me again why the Russians have to keep 2 million Albanians from starving?
Serbia was tired of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosniaks etc; they wanted to rid themselves of this ungrateful baggage. The Serbs have nearly all that they want or need as far as territory is concerned. Including Republika Srpska, Serbia has 80% of the arable land, minerals and water resources of the former Yugoslavia. Kosovo is something different, although there are no valuable resources its part of its history and psyche so that is going to be very difficult to let go. For argument sake it’s much easier for the Serbs to let go of say Krajina than Kosovo.

Gold medal of Independence ...you're havin a laugh! BAHAHAHAHA

For that fine piece of work I present my own gold medal...of comedy! HAHA!

at least they aren't exchanging nazi-lametta, like they used to...

did berty mention when (and how) the occupied parts of kosmet will enter the "european family"? i mean, now that he is a "doctor" he maybe knows...

when the halfmoon in the sky starts yelling back at the infidels, then kosmet will become a member of eu or un ....

If so than the other option pops up...

I hate to be the one that says "I told you so", however just like it happened with NATO bombing of Serbia and liberation of Kosovo, same will be with the UN membership. Russia was opposed to resolutions that would allow the bombing and then at some point they let go.

What will happen is, all we need is ICJ to be at least either positive or neutral and then we should be able to get 2 thirds of UN members to recognize us easily and we will be able to get in.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 00:11

It’s like shooting ducks in a barrel. You guys come up with the silliest arguments because you just don’t know and try and make it up as you go along. Russia was broke in 1999 and the US had their best man in Moscow to make sure that old Boris was compliant, a fellow called Strobe Talbott. Russia was on the verge of having part of its population starve and if it wanted loans from the IMF it had to obey the US. That’s the reason for “then at some point they let go”.
Then NATO bombed Serbia, but the world has changed dramatically to such an extent that China has tremendous influence on your beloved US – you see China owns 1/3 of the US of A. Read what your beloved President Obama says about China – “we need China, our economies are interlocked”. In fact the US needs the Chinese more than the other way around.
The statement made by the ICJ was a fishing expedition by a loyal servant of the US to see world reaction and if no real objections then the world would get a “positive or neutral” verdict. Unfortunately for the Albanians there was a huge reaction in all the right places and important countries.
China has openly told, not asked, but told the US President that Kosovo will not be recognized nor allowed in the UN. So if you think that Kosovo is more important to the US than China then you guys will have a set on the UN next week.

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.
(Olf, 25 November 2009 09:30)

Olf:
1. Serbia is recognized successor state of Yugoslavia.
2. Resolution 1244 said very clear:
"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,

Reaffirming the call in previous resolutions for substantial AUTONOMY and meaningful self-administration for Kosovo"

3. Point No 4 of resolution said:
"Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2"

4. Point 6 of Annex 2"

"After withdrawal, an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel will be permitted to return to perform the following functions:

- Liaison with the international civil mission and the international security presence;
- Marking/clearing minefields;
- Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites;
- Maintaining a presence at key border crossings. "

"I am no legal expert but I do know UN Charter.
Kosova has to make sure it will get 2/3 of UNGA before applying to become UN member. The case goes first to UNSC and is true it could be vetoed, but any UNSC permanent members can file a mottion to take the matter to UNGA,in which case no one can stop it.So much for the veto try at first.
(Kosova-USA, 25 November 2009 13:13) "

The reason people on this site call you an 'e-troll' is because you keep spouting the same rubbish regardless of the facts, even when said facts have been pointed out to you ad nauseum.

http://www.un.org/geninfo/faq/briefingpapers/briefing2a.htm

Nothing but a sad joke.

michael R - Either you are seriously deluded or you don't understand the meaning of the word durable. Ahtisaari plan favours only one side - The Albanians. If there had been true negotiations instead of an ultimatum then there probably wouldn't be the problems with Kosovo that we see today.

When you get a dose of reality and stop trying to steal all the land in the Balkans then things might change. Until then tensions will remain and a good chance that conflict will reignite in the future. If you don't understand that or are too nationalistic to even care, then you really are a fool.

Thanks peter sydney for the link, I knew somewhere it was said that the recognition of independent states was up to the individual states and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.
I will save it for future reference

really wish that when someone wishes to reference something that they in fact use the original reference in their post or use the wording without delivering their own interpretation as if it's gold.

I've interpreted the resolution as I see it, and I've consistently provided my references. If you can find actual references then we can all have a good time in a discussion. If you want to sling mud then I will learn to ignore you, and continue to provide support for what I understand things to be.
(Mr Rae, 25 November 2009 16:42)
I find your comment comical if you go to the UN site and look up res 1244 you will get the original and not an altered copy of 1244.
http://www.unmikonline.org/press/reports/N9917289.pdf
You will note as I said it says personnel it does not say military and police personnel, it does not rule them out, but whoever sent must ge agreed upon.
Also you will read that the resolution directly dictates that security forces with substantial North Atlantic Treaty Organization participation, thus the establishment of Kfor which has always been headed by a NATO commander.

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 10:47)

Got news for you chief. China owns a third of the US who in turn is bankrupt and has to rely on China who in turn relies on Russia for its natural resources. Its a vicious circle, yeah life's a bitch, cry me a river but China isn't neutral any more. Beijing like Moscow is seriously cheesed off at the Yanks and has called a halt to Washington's incestious whining, invading countries, causing wars and making all our lives a misery. Besides China has alot of interests tied up in Africa, Middle East, Afghanistan and dare i say it, Serbia.

I know its hard to take but closing your eyes, crossing you fingers and wishing hard while listening to Prince's "I'm gonna party on down like its 1999" isn't going to bring back the good old days.

Well sj, if Russia was the most powerful country in the world on 89 and then broke on 99, what makes you think that it's not going to be broke again shortly and let go again? China always plays neutral on these situations.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 10:47)

Russia was not the most powerful country in the world in 1989, it was one of two world superpowers in the world. The bankruptcy of the Soviet Union took a very long time to come to fruition, it did not happen overnight – it took many decades. The US spent so much money that it nearly went broke sending the Soviet Union to the wall.
Russia is in a completely different situation today. It has won the energy war against the US and EU. It not only controls its own gas and oil reserves, but all of the same in the former Soviet republics including Azerbaijan, the richest one of all. It has gold reserves to back its currency, which is something new in this day and age; it has about 1.2 trillion dollars in reserves and it has very little debt. It is also luring manufacturing to its shores such as Mitsubishi, which is relocating a plant from Australia to Russia; Toyota and others as well and I could go on mentioning other corporations opening up in that country. Like him or hate him, but it was Valdimir Putin that brought Russia back to its feet again.
To quote the US “we took our eye off Russia and now it’s a thorn in our side”. This would have to be the greatest understatement of the century. There is a deep resentment in Russia towards the US because of the way they were treated after the fall of the Soviet Union. Instead of showing some level of kindness, the US behaved like conquerors and belittled the Russians at every opportunity. All they had to do is display courtesy and the Russian people would have loved them forever, but they did not and the rest is history!
What is printed in the paper and what really happens are two very different things. China is not neutral on many things, that’s just what your Government tell you through the media. The Chinese do business very differently to the western world; they are tough negotiators, superb business people and do not boast nor beat their chests.

The Chinese stated, through a retired general, in the last few days that they were never abandoning North Korea, but there was only couple of lines about it on page 35 of my newspaper. It quite a difference to the story told by the US only 4 weeks ago, where China will put pressure on NK etc…You have to remember that the US make statements for “domestic consumption” – please the people happy back home, you know fighting for freedom and democracy.
China’s stance on Kosovo will have a major affect on if it moves forward or remains static. The Chinese don’t want a precedent set in the ICJ where their own republics might seek “independence”, such as Tibet. So you see China will not remain neutral it will work behind closed doors to ensure it gets its way.

Mr Rae, my apologies, after submitting my commentI read the comment from Milan and went back and found where there are 2 places it addresses the return of Personnel, one it does mention military and police and the other only personnel.
But it is very specific in these functions and that they are to work under the supervision of the international forces, and as pointed out the number can be in the hundreds not thousands.

pss:
> Never is a long time and there could be many changes along the way.

For starters, I didn't use the word 'never' unqualified. I qualified it with the words "without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto".

And there is only one change that matters in relation to 'pseudo-state' becoming a member of the UN - the removal of the russian veto.

Russians have already stated that they will do so if Serbia removes it's objection. And likelihood of Russia changing it's stance without a similar change in Serbia's position is next to nil.

Repeating..
Without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never have UN membership.

> While becoming a member of UN is the ultimate goal, I sincerely doubt many at this point have lost sleep over it.

Reality is that 'pseudo-state' is nowhere near this 'ultimate goal'. Just as it is nowhere near EU membership. Reality is that K-albanians are headed nowhere fast, & sooner or later they'll realise it.

Reality is that before the K-albanians were the 'oppressed', they were the 'oppressors', just as they are now.

And reality is that until they agree to some compromise with the serbs, situation will not change.

To be perfectly honest with everyone, Kosovo does NOT deserve a UN seat. The many destroyed churches remain destroyed. There are no minority rights. Christians face extreme discrimination and rejection by the Muslim populace of Kosovo.

kosovaman we all have dreams!

Kosovo will never become a UN member not only can Russia veto it so can China and India , and China will do it after signing five major economical deals with Serbia last month. Kosovo is Serbia!

Mr. Rae, dont you realise that US 1244 has nothing to do with Serbia, all the time mentiones Yougoslavia, Yugoslavia ... Yugoslavia.
For some time now 1244 is in the same place where Yugoslavia is.

Yogoslavia integrity not the same as Serbia integrity.
Serbia is not sovreign in all of its territory, as you know they are not in control of Kosovo and Kosovo is Independent. However, Serbia was given away visa liberation and I wonder how is Serbia going to repay this concession made by EU.
Is it going to be the usuall betrayal of K-Serbs which is becoming more obivous or something more.
(Olf, 25 November 2009 09:30)

wrong, wrong, wrong. Serbia is internationally recognised as the legal successor to Serbia -Montenegro who in turn is the legal successor to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Serbia inherited Yugoslavia's UN seat and its membership on international bodies. Montenegro like the rest of the ex Yugoslav republics had to apply for UN membership, Serbia did not. Resolution 1244 therefore applies to the Republic of Serbia of which the AP of Kosmet is an constituent part and Serbia has the right to assert its sovereignty over its territory that includes Kosmet.

Your argument simply wouldn't stand up in a court of law, never mind a kangaroo court filled with hopping mad jumping Skippys.

..and you even managed to spell Yugoslavia wrong in your rant 3 times. 'Yogoslavia', now is that up there with Dardania and La la Land in the imaginary places that fills your vacuous mind.

(sj, 25 November 2009 14:24)

As hard as it is to let go of Kosovo, soon it will be a history, and we will argue about something else I'm sure. The reality right now in Kosovo is that no Serbian military boot is stepping in and KSF is in charge. You tell me if it's in your hands or not.
(kosovaman, 25 November 2009 14:57

I hate to tell you that Kosovo is going nowhere fast, but have it your way. However, I am still curious to know why would Russia care about 2 million Albanians who were on the side of the US?
KSF is in charge of nothing. Hasn’t the passport incident taught you anything? Albanians are controlled by the EU and until Serbia recognizes Kosovo as a separate state then there is nothing – the EU will remain forever pouring billions into a bottomless pit with no return on that ‘investment’. This Camp Bondsteel would have to be the most expensive ‘white elephant’ on the planet.
I know for a fact that the Russian ultra nationalist in Putin’s party have an old score to settle with the EU and they are making preparations now and Kosovo and Croatia are part of those preparations. I’ll leave it at that for now.

last time an Austrian thought the Serbs would "give up", the story ended with serbian troops near Vienna.

so much for the importance of Mr.Rohans opinion...


we won´t give up, since southern Serbian territory is not to be given away.

Olf,
I do not know if we've directly exchanged dialog on this forum either, but what I was trying to get you to do was answer your own question, using UN Res 1244 as your basis. I did see that you spent much time trying to demonstrate that the resolution focused on Yugoslavia and not Serbia. As many downstream posters have pointed out that Serbia is the official successor to Yugoslavia, in all forms this part of your argument is inaccurate. I was hoping that you'd spend some time to look through res 1244 and find out for yourself whether or not Serbia and Kosovo and Internatioanl community is living up to the agreed upon resolution. I didn't see that in your retort, but rather more unsubstantiated opinions without reference.
I was really hoping that you were going to take this topic up to the next level, especially considering your opening comments about the *milosevic-style* commentators on this forum.
Please try again. As I have said I am not an expert, yet I do understand what it is that I read, and I have not read anything in UN 1244 that would seem to suggest your position. I am open for dialog and enlightenment, but not through "I said so" style arguments.

pss,

I've looked for this footnote that specifies less than 1000. I cannot find it. Please provide the direct text from the resolution please.
pss, understand that I did not provide you with my opinion as to what is written in the resolution, but rather I copied and pasted directly from the resolution. In fact it does say "4. Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and
Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to
perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;" It does not mention non-military after it specifically mentions military.
Further, I would suggest that if there is a failure on Serbia’s part to 'Maintaining a presence at Serb patrimonial sites.' then it could be because NATO/EU/UN/KFOR/Kosovo Police is not obeying that part of the resolution to allow Serbian military to both enter, clear land mines and protect patronage sites.
Also, I'm not sure what your reference to NATO is for. NATO is not UN. This is a UN resolution.

I wonder if this might be of interest to those that are calling for the removal of internationals...
"19. Decides that the international civil and security presences are
established for an initial period of 12 months, to continue thereafter unless
the Security Council decides otherwise;"

I really wish that when someone wishes to reference something that they in fact use the original reference in their post or use the wording without delivering their own interpretation as if it's gold.

I've interpreted the resolution as I see it, and I've consistently provided my references. If you can find actual references then we can all have a good time in a discussion. If you want to sling mud then I will learn to ignore you, and continue to provide support for what I understand things to be.

While UN has no authority to recognise, membership is the last stop on the path of full recognition. And without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never reach it.
(peter, sydney, 26 November 2009 18:16)
Never is a long time and there could be many changes along the way.
However no one promised a smooth or easy trip.
While becoming a member of UN is the ultimate goal, I sincerely doubt many at this point have lost sleep over it.
I have never had to live under the thumb of oppression, but I truly believe that for those who have, UN membership is just decorations on the cake.

The notion of independence is an abuse of 1244. What was intended was obviously self government while maintaining the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.

The current situation is not a settlement within the terms of 1244. It can follow therefore that if at anytime Serbia decides that 1244 has been invalidated and its terms no longer apply, it will have the right to reoccupy.

It can be concluded that unless Serbia specifically signs away its rights, there is no guaranteed future for an ethnic Albanian state in Kosovo to sustain of itself. There will always have to be occupying troops there.

It is clear that the ethnic cleansing of Serbs was always the ambition of the Albanians - long before Milosevic. I find it amazing therefore that the US has sought to reward such racist ambition. In no way should the current setup be labelled anything other than mono-ethnic.

Recognising countries should seriously reconsider - this is not just a matter of pragmatics or of slapping down Serbs - it is also a matter of rewarding something that was intrinsically wrongly motivated.

The correct solution should have been some kind of intermediate plan - a protectorate of some sort. In practice that is what the current masquerade actually is.

"...They would have been useful for mine-clearing, that's certain.
(Amer, 25 November 2009 19:17)..."

>>> "I like to wake up...in the city which does not sleep...New York...New York..."

pss:
> ..and the UN has no authority to recognize or not recognize a state.

True.

But is also true that to be a member of the UN, an aspiring state must be recognised as such by at least 2/3rds of the current membership including all 5 of the permanent UN SC members.

While UN has no authority to recognise, membership is the last stop on the path of full recognition. And without the approval of Serbia via removal of the russian veto, 'self-styled-state' will never reach it.